What's the story about her husband? I've seen several people comment that he was a psycho. I don't recall the episode mentioning him.

The segment never mentioned Cindy's husband. In fact, they never even showed his picture. The only mention of him at all in the segment was Stack saying, "In July of 1982, Cindy and her husband seperated. 3 months later, the phone calls began."

His name was Roy Makepeace. He wasn't really a pyscho as much as we was a little eccentric. He certainly had his odd qualities, as many people do, but I never saw him as a killer. I read both books about the Cindy James case and I never once got the feeling that he was behind her terror. In fact one of her attacks happened while he was out of the country.

While some people look at the timing of Cindy and Roy's seperation and speculate he could have been responsible for the harrasment, it doesn't seem likely. They didn't get divorced until years later and they continued to date on and off and were on good terms. She even invited him to spend Christmas with her and her family the December after they seperated. She never believed he was behind the harrasment either.

The latest on Makepeace is unknown. In fact, several months ago a poster came here and said that he is currently missing - his whereabouts being a mystery. Haven't heard anything more about him since.

After reading 2 books what's your theory about her death?

After reading 2 books what's your theory about her death?

There's so many details mentioned in the book - I may have to go back and post actual quotes if people get interested - but I can't believe that she killed herself. Her body was filled with so many morphine drugs that I find it hard to believe she could have tied herself up even though the knots that bound her hands and legs together weren't very tight. I can't remember how long it would have taken her to pass out after being injected but the biggest fact remains - There was no syringe found anywhere near the body...not in the yard, not in the abandoned house, not anywhere.

What does that mean? Simple. She was killed and her body was dumped. Somebody killed her and tried to make it look like suicide. Her jacket was neatly layed out to give the illusion that she killed herself.

Investigators are torn that the death scene was either suicide made to look like murder or murder made to look like suicide. But either way the same fact remains - Where was the syringe? The Vancouver police refuse to accept anything but suicide because Cindy seemed, at times to be witholding information, which was probably true. And while some events of the last several years of her life and behavior at times seems confusing - I just don't believe that it was suicide.

The police have any suspects? I would be surprised if none of the neighbors would'nt have seen/heard prowling going on.

The yard her body was found in didn't have a ton of homes close by so not many people would have seen her anyway. Curiously enough, there was a homeless man that lived out of his van, just 20 yards or so from where the corpse layed on the same yard. He never reported seeing anything. Police believed that her body layed there in the yard for a week but that couldn't have been possible since rodents would have eaten away at her body...which they had already started to do. (I know...yuck!) That's another factor that looks like her body was dumped there.

The inquest of her death came to the conclusion that the death was "undetermined" since technically it can't be proven either way whether it was murder or suicide. Therefore, the case file remains open. But there are no suspects because the entire Vancouver Police Department believe Cindy was responsible for her own death.

I only read Ian Mulgrew's Who Killed Cindy James, and have not read the other book.....yet. I too think that it was a murder, and they must have known she was doubted by the police and that they would think her death would be a suicide, which they did once the body was found. In that way it could be called the perfect crime. And consider where the body was found, and who found the body. Cops said they'd search nearby abandoned housing lots first, but her body was found in just such a place by construction workers, a short time after the police search began.

I think there is at least police incompetence here, and to avoid a public realtions disaster, as the book said, the police ruled a suicide as to avoid public scrutiny for letting a murderer roam free.

And at one point, Cindy did begin to point the finger at her ex-husband, around 87' or 88'.

I re-watched that case on the DVD yesterday; I really doubt that she "harassed" and killed herself. I don't think that her ex-hubby is behind it, unless he payed some other people to do it.

I'll have to search for the books in the library, as I don't think that the bookstores still have it as new.

That case is fascinating to say the least. I also want to search the Vancouver Sun microfilm archives, as to whatever article were written on it.

And the actress who played Cindy in the re-enactment looks exactly the same. it's creepy!

The only weird thing is that she onced walked her dog out for a long time at 3 AM, alone w/him, and the dog seemed like a small Corgis or similar. Not a "scary looking" dog by any stretch. But she had friends staying at her house that night, so maybe she felt safer going for a long doggie walk at night?

Who knows...Maybe she got harassed and then started to "embelish" the story herself, then she got nuts by the whole thing (harassments, police not believing her, etc...). know I would've gotten nuts as well, sp. after the harrassment continued after she changed her last name and she moved!!

Another case not on the DVD and that I haven't seen in a little while is the "L'Enfant" case, about a mid-eastern man who was kidnapped by terrorists in his area, then he moved to the US, opened a restaurants and got harassed by, among other things, scary phone calls w/ a childish voice and giggles, saying they were called "l'enfant" (meaning "the child" in French). Man that case gave me the shivers! I wish I'd see it again soon!

They should've made a DVD set w/weird misc. cases that don't include murders, legends or the paranormal. I love all sets that I've yet watched, but there are a few other themes that they could make.

dyno,

They speculate that the morphine was ingested orally and would not have taken effect for 15-30 minutes (plenty of time for her to tie herself up). Being a nurse, it would have been easy for her to get her hands on this drug. The knot expert took three minutes to replicate the knots that bound Cindy. I believe the "attack" that killed her was just another staged attention getting scene that accidentally killed her.

I believe Cindy was behind the attacks all along. Not one neighbor ever saw or heard anything. There were never any footprints, fingerprints, fibers, hairs, etc. left behind. She was never sexually assaulted in the attacks. Everytime police surveillance was on her house, the harrassment stopped. In seven years, some kind of evidence would have surfaced. No criminals are that good at what they do.

I can cetainly see why people would think it would be suicide. Cindy did act odd at times during those 7 years and didn't always act like a normal victim would act. Another strange incident was when her house was set on fire, apparently by her attacker. She was relatively calm after getting her friends and dog out of the house and it wasn't until police arrived that she started to act histarical and crying. That always seemed suspicious to me. I also find it odd that she would go out walking her dog at 2:00 in the morning after everything she had been through.

But there were times when it seemed like there really could have been an attacker. One evening, she was playing cards with her friends Tom and Agnes Woodcock (they were like second parents to her and began living with her for a while so she would feel safer) - they were playing cards at 3:00 in the morning because she had trouble sleeping when the burgler alarm went off and they all heard someone out in the yard. After checking, they found a dead cat left on her front porch with a note tied around it's neck; "You're next!" :eek: If Cindy was able to stage that, she must have been some kind of master genius because Agnes said she never once left the room.

The phone lines constantly being cut also confuses me. She certainly never had any knowledge of which phone lines were hers, which ones were her down stairs tenant and which ones were her neighbors that lived close by yet her phone lines were always cut and never anyone else's. And the threatening phone calls - she wasn't always alone when she would recieve them. There were times when her PI, her police officer friend and her family members answered one of these calls with Cindy in the room.

Either way, whether it was suicide or murder, the Vancouver Police look like a bunch of fools. Thinman mentioned that in seven years, some kind of evidence would have surfaced. That may be true...but how come in seven years the police could never catch Cindy doing these things to herself? Come on, seven years is a long time. If an attack always seemed to happen when surveillance was taken off her house why didn't the police just trick her and tell her that it was taken off but instead stay and see if they could catch her in the act? This isn't rocket science here. If the police was so convinced that she was doing this to herself, they should have got the proof first instead of making accusations.

This is certainly one of the most interesting cases UM has ever profiled because a legitimate argument can be made for either side. I am a little skeptical of the stories corroborated by the Woodcocks and her cop "friend" because they are not unbiased sources. I'm not trying to call anyone a liar, but the Woodcocks would have said or done anything to clear Cindy's name. The cop was having a sexual relationship with her.

Good point about her also not being caught doing these things. But, it would be a whole lot easier for her to get away with these things than someone else, in my opinion. I just can't get past the fact that she was violently assaulted five times and there was not a shred of evidence suggesting another party was involved.

After seeing the segment again today, IMO I think she was stalked in the beginning. The offender stopped at some point to observe the effect it was having. Don't forget were talking about a period of roughly 8 years. Also when people are being stalked they have a natural tendency to become to vigilant to the point where they suspect everything around them. When Cindy James reached this point he realized he was in her head, controlling her thoughts, so that's one reason why he had a lull. Second reason for some time there was the police presence, with that many officers staking out the house I think it wasn't feasible for the stalker to make his next move.
Next I think Cindy became frustrated/defiant over the whole situation which would explain her walking her dog at odd times in the night. That was to tell the stalker that she wasn't afraid of him, which he took as a direct challenge.
Eventually the stalker made his move when Cindy became more complacent or less vigilant which would happen eventually especially over such a long time frame.

I don't remember this case. I'm reading lots online but it seems like quite a complex case. Anyone care to break it down for me and give it to me in a 'nutshell'

I don't remember this case. I'm reading lots online but it seems like quite a complex case. Anyone care to break it down for me and give it to me in a 'nutshell'

Perfect storm of classic UM:

-two versions of the segment have been shown. One had more info than the other.
-Cindy James claimed to be harassed by an unknown assailant.
-She's found gagged and drugged.
-Vancouver police believe she's making it all up.
-Harassment gets worse. Cindy has friends and family keeping an eye on her place when weird things happen.
-Police still think she's making it all up.
-Cindy's behavior becomes more erratic.
-Cindy is found dead of a massive morphine overdose, also tied and gagged and beaten.

Evidence seems to suggest that there might HAVE been a harasser but there's circumstantial evidence to suggest that Cindy was experiencing a mental breakdown.

There are two books written about the case that have even more information than was on the UM segment.

That's a very basic set up.

CBW

Wow OK thanks! Has anyone been charged with her murder? Or do the police think because of her 'breakdown' she did it herself?

No one's been charged. There are no suspects. It's still unsolved.

Wow OK thanks! Has anyone been charged with her murder? Or do the police think because of her 'breakdown' she did it herself?

It's still unsolved, but my understanding is that police believe she committed suicide.

I often wonder if its because of a botch in the investigation that makes them lean that way. I can see supporting facts for both sides, as I've said numerous times. That being said, I cannot reconcile how her body was found and why it took them so long to find her. It makes me think her body was dumped. Therefore, I believe she was the victim of foul play.

Thinman - where did you get this info, "The cop was having a sexual relationship with her"? I had not heard that before.

Read more: Cindy James - Sitcoms Online Message Boards - Forums http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=147064#ixzz4bS8l7Y7d


This is certainly one of the most interesting cases UM has ever profiled because a legitimate argument can be made for either side. I am a little skeptical of the stories corroborated by the Woodcocks and her cop "friend" because they are not unbiased sources. I'm not trying to call anyone a liar, but the Woodcocks would have said or done anything to clear Cindy's name. The cop was having a sexual relationship with her.

Good point about her also not being caught doing these things. But, it would be a whole lot easier for her to get away with these things than someone else, in my opinion. I just can't get past the fact that she was violently assaulted five times and there was not a shred of evidence suggesting another party was involved.

Ive watched the UM segment several times and also read Neal Hall's book just recently. There is alot of information in the book that is not mentioned in the UM segment. I would recommend anyone interested in this case to check out the book. Its no longer in print but i found a used copy on Amazon for fairly cheap. Here are some facts and also my thoughts on the book and segment.

Ozzie Kaban was Cindys PI, he stated In the segment that Cindy was "evasive". This was true. She was not only evasive with the police but also with her family, friends, doctors and even Kaban himself. She never confided in anyone as to her thoughts as to who may have been stalking her or why.

Although Cindy stated she felt a needle go into her arm during several of the attacks the only drug found in her system at the hospital was her prescribed Valium which was at theraputic levels. No other drugs or alcohol was found to be in her system when she was treated at the hospital after the attacks.

At the hospital after the attacks doctors and the detectives who interviewed her described sudden changes in her behavior. She would appear dazed and semi concious but moments later would be sitting up in bed talking and answering questions normally. One doctor described some of her behavior as "child like."

Cindy's Ex-husband was obviously a prime suspect of the attacks/stalking. No evidence was ever found that he was behind the incidents or knew who was responsible. He eventually informed the family of his belief that Cindy was mentally ill.

Even though Cindy lived in constant fear, neighbors and friends reported that Cindy would work in the yard or the garden into dusk and sometimes after dark. It was also confirmed that Cindy would walk her dog late at night. Cindy stated she was out walking her dog at 3am when the fire was set at her home.

Several attacks Cindy reported two or three people being involved. If so then that is a conspiracy. Cindy was never able to provide a reliable description of the attacker or attacker's. One of the reported attacks states Cindy was approached by two unknown men in a van near a local park. There were no witnesses that could confirm the presence of the men or the van.

Police did stake out Cindy's home on several occasions. They would also do random patrols and spot checks of Cindy's street, home etc. Police never saw anyone suspicious in the area.

Cindy reported her porch lights smashed or sometimes simply unscrewed. She reported bangs and thumps at night and stated she felt as if someone was prowling around outside. Some of her windows were smashed and her phone lines cut. The police would show up but could not find any fingerprints, shoe tracks or any other evidence that someone other than Cindy was there.

Although alot of Cindy's neighbors were aware of the alledged activity that was going on no one reported ever seeing anyone around Cindy's home or reported any suspicious activity.

The UM segment describes the fire that was set at Cindy's home, this was the night her friends (husband and wife) were staying over. This was also the night Cindy reported she was out walking her dog at 3 am. The investigation concuded that there was no forced entry found at the home. The arson investigation found that there were 6 different spots in the basement where an accelerant was used. They even went so far as to attempt to recreate the scene as if an unknown person set the fire from the outside through the window. They found it to be impossible and concluded there was no doubt the fire was set from inside the home.

Cindy's polygraph came back "inconclusive".

Cindy was treated twice in a psychiatric hospital and recieved anti-psychotic medication.

Cindy's doctors/psychiatrists all believed she suffered from mental illness. This was discussed in depth at the cause of death hearing.

Seven years Cindy reported the attacks/stalking. No one could confirm ever seeing a suspicious person or witnessing any of the harrassment.

The tape recorded voice of the "attacker" sounded like a woman attempting to disguise her voice.

3-4 different detectives worked on this case. The results/conclusion from all the detectives were the same.

While Cindy's PI believed her it has to be stated that Cindy was a paying client.

Even though Cindy had been treated at a Psychiatric hospital several times throughout the years, Cindy's family and especially her father refused to accept or acknowledge that Cindy may have suffered from Mental Illness.

While its difficult to believe Cindy was responsible for the attacks and harrassment it definately seems that way. Cindy eitheir committed these acts herself due to severe mental illness or she was the victim of an elaborate conspiracy with no motive. Those involved have to be the luckiest criminals in history to attack and harass someone for several years while leaving no evidence. People say how could she have done this to herself?? Some people with mental illness harm themselves all the time, cutting, plucking or pulling out their hair, cigarette burns etc.I think its important to remember that during that time those who suffered from mental illness were shunned or even embarrassed to seek or recieve treatment. Today, thankfully people dont have to hide or be embarrassed due to their illness. Now every other commercial on TV is an advertisement for a new anti-depressant. Blame and denial are two very powerful coping mechanisms and i believe thats what her family did. Blamed the police for bungling the case and denying the fact that Cindy suffered from Mental Illness. Whether or not she did this to herself or someone else did it there is no doubt she was in a living hell and thats definately sad. This is just my opinion after reading the book and watching the segment several times.

I go back and forth on this, one thing I see a lot is about the
( tape recorded voice of the "attacker" sounded like a woman attempting to disguise her voice)

What "if: she was being stalked by a woman? What "if" the police did not see suspicious activity because they where looking for a man?

I hate it when people try to blame Cindy for this. She was stalked and murdered, and her killer has gotten away with it for nearly 30 years.

I hate it when people try to blame Cindy for this. She was stalked and murdered, and her killer has gotten away with it for nearly 30 years.

While I agree with you that she was likely murdered, I *can* see where it's a hotly disputed matter.

For me (and Robin covered it in his podcast), it was the discovery of Cindy's body that led me to believe she was murdered...

For me (and Robin covered it in his podcast), it was the discovery of Cindy's body that led me to believe she was murdered...

I agree with this. If her death was a suicide (or even an accidental death staging a fake attack), it wouldn't have taken two weeks to find the body.

However, her being murdered doesn't mean there wasn't some exaggeration on Cindy's part in the allegations of stalking and harassment. Her behavior over the seven years prior to her death is very consistent with Mundchausen's syndrome. I believe that some of the harassment was real, but I believe she fabricated some of it as well either to get attention or to bring attention to the portions of it that were real.

Can we at least all agree that Neal Hall came off as very smug and arrogant in his interview regardless of whether you agree with him or not.

I agree with this. If her death was a suicide (or even an accidental death staging a fake attack), it wouldn't have taken two weeks to find the body.

However, her being murdered doesn't mean there wasn't some exaggeration on Cindy's part in the allegations of stalking and harassment. Her behavior over the seven years prior to her death is very consistent with Mundchausen's syndrome. I believe that some of the harassment was real, but I believe she fabricated some of it as well either to get attention or to bring attention to the portions of it that were real.

Can we at least all agree that Neal Hall came off as very smug and arrogant in his interview regardless of whether you agree with him or not.


no. He came across as reasonable and objective

I really don't know what to make of this case. It reminds me a bit of Ruth Finley, though:

Harassed by An Unknown Author of Vicious Rhymes, Ruth Finley Confronts the Stranger Within Herself (http://people.com/archive/harassed-by-an-unknown-author-of-vicious-rhymes-ruth-finley-confronts-the-stranger-within-herself-vol-30-no-10/)

Wow Tap Dancer, I had never read about that case before. Thanks for sharing- certainly does give one pause when it comes to the Cindy James case.

Just went on Amazon, both books range from 89.00-500.00 (wow)

What I find interesting is the notion that Cindy James' situation has to be an EITHER/OR scenario.

Why can't it be possible for Cindy to have a mental break AND be tormented by someone over the years? Maybe her mental break was triggered by the stalking and only got worse or perhaps she had a long-term mental disorder that ran parallel to someone initiating a campaign of terror against her?

Clearly, UM missed a lot of the details covered in the books about Cindy James, but I find it hard to believe that someone could do the amount of drugs she did and then hogtie herself up at the point of death.

I can believe she started the fire in her house, I can believe she slashed her own pillow and I can believe she sent the letters to herself.

I do not believe she made those calls, I do not believe she threw rocks through her own window and I don't believe she staged her ALL of the physical attacks.

Her stalker didn't have to do much in terms of constant abuse, this person could do one or two things that triggered her mental breaks which caused her to do things to the cats she found in her yard and what she did to her dog.

So when she was questioned by law enforcement, she would obviously be "evasive" because she was mentally ill and had issues with reconciling reality.

My conclusion is this:

Cindy James was mentally ill. She also had a stalker who knew exactly how to trigger her illness which led to her doing things like starting fires, hurting animals and causing harm to her body.

As the campaign of terror continued, her self-mutilation got worse and she was losing her grasp on reality. Soon, her stalker decided to up the stakes and began to physically attack her from time to time.

The physical attacks got worse, which triggered worse mental breaks. Eventually, her stalker decided to kill her and they did. The stalker knew that the chain of evidence left behind would cast doubt on their existence and make it appear that Cindy was doing all of this herself.

When you think about it, this is the only scenario that fits the overall set of incidents.

If she had split personalty disorder, would one personalty kill the other?

I agree with your scenario. Some things lime the fire she did but others was were her stalker. This kind of harrasment and not being believed would cause the saniest person to have psychological issues. I never believed she killed herself. I don't think a knot expert could hogtie themselves the way she was with the amount of drugs she had in her system.

As a Licensed Private Detective in the corrupt and nearly bankrupt state of Illinois it is my professional opinion this poor woman was mentally ill for a long time and committed suicide.

As a Licensed Private Detective in the corrupt and nearly bankrupt state of Illinois it is my professional opinion this poor woman was mentally ill for a long time and committed suicide.

Nice credentials, but I don't know how that supports the concept of suicide?

Again, someone needs to explain how a heavily drugged woman ties herself up in a complicated knot assembly near the point of death?

That, to me, clinches the idea of there being someone else (or multiple people) involved.

Again, someone needs to explain how a heavily drugged woman ties herself up in a complicated knot assembly near the point of death?

That, to me, clinches the idea of there being someone else (or multiple people) involved.

Neal Hall goes into great detail about this in his book about Cindy James. The knots weren't that tight, and while being a bit odd, it was certainly possible for Cindy to apply to herself. Depending HOW the drugs got into Cindy's system would determine how long it took for them to take effect. This has always been in dispute. If they were injected, she likely would have been under the influence a lot quicker than if she swallowed pills.

The scene of Cindy's alleged abduction doesn't make sense from a stranger abduction scenario. There are several signs that point to a staged scene. (This is not the scene where her body was found, but where her car was found.)

I have no doubt that Cindy could have staged the scene where her body was found. However, it is really odd that her body was not found more quickly, and there was also a lack of things you might expect to find in the area had she done it to herself.

There is certainly a possibility that another person helped Cindy stage the scene -- but who and why? I've always wondered if she did do it to herself, did she really mean to kill herself or was this another attempt to get attention?

Another good aspect of Neal Hall's book is the pattern of these events. Taken individually, this sounds like a horrible campaign of terror and some of these events are brutal. But when you look at the pattern and realize these events happened over YEARS and sometimes went many months between events, it doesn't make sense. Who would stalk someone for so long and yet take such huge breaks off? These also tended to happen around other significant or troubling events in Cindy's life.

What makes this case so fascinating (and frustrating) is the amount of evidence that points both ways, and no clear answers. In any case, Cindy was clearly a troubled woman and my heart goes out to her. She really needed help and sadly never got the exact help she needed.

Nice credentials, but I don't know how that supports the concept of suicide?

Again, someone needs to explain how a heavily drugged woman ties herself up in a complicated knot assembly near the point of death?

That, to me, clinches the idea of there being someone else (or multiple people) involved.


I recall the theory presented was that she injected herself and while the drugs kicked in tied the knots etc. I can't remember though if they found the needle at the site?

I recall the theory presented was that she injected herself and while the drugs kicked in tied the knots etc. I can't remember though if they found the needle at the site?

They did not.

That's what I thought. Maybe she could have tied herself up waiting for the injected drugs to take effect, but also dispose of the needle in such a way it was never found and then tie herself up? That seems unlikely.

There is so much information in Neal Hall's book that isnt included in the UM segment. After reading it, I believe Cindy was responsible for the "attacks" and eventually commited suicide due to severe mental illness. Sad to say but I believe true.

...but if that's the case (and I'm not saying it's not what happened), WHY did it take so long for her body to be discovered?

I've said it before. The lack of needles at the scene and the location where her body was ultimately discovered are the two aspects of the case I can't ignore...

Poor Cindy. I get so tired of the victim-blaming. :-/

Couldn't she have taken the drugs orally? I believe she was on morphine as well as other sedatives. All of which can be taken by mouth.

Also, she was found on the lot of an abandoned building. She could have very easily ventured in amongst the brush by herself, had the cords ready to tie herself, and then taken the drugs (which, it should be assumed, she knew of dosing information, amount of time until onset, etc. because of her medical background).

I am still on the fence with this case, but I'm not sure why location of her body and the lack of a needle present further the homicide theory. Clue me in...

I'm pretty sure, just from memory, there were injection marks on the body.

IV narcotics aren't slow acting. So the idea that she tied herself up after injecting herself is already a stretch, but to have also apparently run around and hidden the needle so well that it has never surfaced seems improbable.

The field, for me, for someone who did all that she did for attention (per the theory) it doesn't add up she'd go missing and be found in an isolated rural location.

This is a case that the UM broadcast didn't do justice to. That is NOT a criticism of UM -- it is just such a complicated case that there is no way to cover everything in 15-20 minutes and tell enough of the story.

Keep in mind, Cindy admitted that she was "withholding information." She never said what that was, but after years of attacks and coming close to being killed more than once, she still wouldn't share everything.

As for whether the drugs were ingested (swallowed) or injected, here is a section from Neal Hall's book "The Deaths of Cindy James":

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that, because of the state of decomposition of the body, it was difficult to determine whether the overdoses of morphine and flurazepam had been administered orally or by injection.

The flurazepam was ingested orally, she believed, since tablets were found in the contents of her stomach. She also believed it was likely that the morphine was ingested. The needle mark was probably a "blood collection site" rather than evidence of an injection -- blood might have been withdrawn from Cindy's arm and perhaps squirted on her car to make it look as if she had been abducted. The blood on the car was tested and found to be the same group type as Cindy's.

Here are a few facts/quotes takin from the investigators, doctors etc during the cause of death hearing/investigation.


Constable Jerry Anderson testified that he had spoken with Cindys Psychiatrist Dr. Friesen. He stated that Dr. Friesen told him that the "patient was fixated on her ex-husband and had pent-up anger towards her father." He also stated that "two weeks before her disappearance Cindy was in good spirits." He indicated that his experience with suicides happy behavior indicates a person has set a course of action to carry out a suicide. He also noted Cindys friends and colleagues were leaving "en-masse" which may have made Cindy feel abandoned.

Constable Jerry Anderson stated in regards to the threatening messages left on the answering machine he said "I believe that is Cindy on the tape." He did acknowledge that he was not a voice comparison expert. The tapes, along with known recordings of Cindys voice were sent to the FBI in Washington DC, they were then sent to a specialist at the Psycholinguistcs Centre in New York named, M.Miron. He concluded that there were "obvious similarities" in the voice on the tape and Cindys known voice. He was unable to conclude any "source" due to the voice "distortion". Tille Hack was also questioned regarding her thoughts of the voice on the tape, during the hearing when asked if she thought that was Cindy's voice. She replied "oh my god, no." She was then reminded that she had told Coroners Investigator Pat Costello that the voice on the tape "could be" Cindy. She admitted she had said this and stated. "It could be Cindy, it could be anybody."


Anderson testified he interviewed one of Ozzie Kaban's employees named Steve Cox, he worked for Kaban's PI agency. He stated Cindy was "always aware when surveillance was in place at her home." Cox stated sometimes when he "radioed" the office that he was off duty and heading home Cindy would then call the office to report a "prowler." Nothing was ever found. He also stated that looking back he wished he had radioed he was off duty for the night but then stuck around to see what would happen but he never did. He also noted that a security camera had been placed on one side of Cindys home, shortly after it was in place Cindy reported all the "occurances" were now taking place on the opposite side of the home, away from the camera.

Anderson testified that:

Flurazepam was found in Cindys system, the amount found was "10 times that of a lethal dose." Flurazepam is a sedative.

Morphine was found in Cindys system, the morphine level was also "10 times" the level needed to cause death.

It was confirmed Cindy had access to these medications on the hospital ward in which she worked. When asked how Cindy could obtain these medications since narcotics are secured and recorded. Anderson stated he was informed by several sources of a process called "short changing". A patients medication is takin or replaced. This is not uncommon and still occurs today. Anderson also stated he was informed Cindy could have remained concious for up to 30 minutes if the medications were takin orally. (Others have stated 15-30mins)

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that the flurazepam was ingested orally. Tablets were found in her stomach. She also stated it was "likely" the morphine was ingested orally as well.


Knot expert Robert Chisnell testified regarding the ligatures found on Cindys body. He stated the knots were all loose enough to easily be slipped off. He re-created the scene in the courtroom using the same knots/ligatures used on Cindy. It took 3 minutes. He concluded and testified "self tying" was the likely explanation.

I tried to include things that were obviously not really covered or covered in great deal on the UM segment. There is alot more information as well included in the book.

Keep in mind, Cindy admitted that she was "withholding information." She never said what that was, but after years of attacks and coming close to being killed more than once, she still wouldn't share everything.

Ironically, this bit of information is only provided by the UM segment. The exact quotes are when Stack says...

"Ten weeks later, Cindy left the hospital. She finally admitted to her family and friends that she had been withholding information."

And Agnes Woodcock added....

"She said when it's all over, I'll explain everything to you but I can't tell you right now."

I've read Neal Hall's book multiple times (though it's been a little while) and I don't remember him ever mentioning Cindy admitting to her loved ones that she had been withholding information any time after her hospital stay. And that's ironic because every question you had after originally watching the segment is answered in the book in major detail. I wonder why not this?

And that's ironic because every question you had after originally watching the segment is answered in the book in major detail. I wonder why not this?

You’re right. IIRC, I don’t think it was said in those terms exactly. I do remember one of her psychiatrists saying she would never fully open up to him. He focused more on trying to talk about her past and what was the root of all of this (likely some sort of physical and/or sexual abuse).

I think Cindy used those vague threats as a way to not explain everything to the police. It’s too bad because had they done a better job earlier, this case likely would have been solved and poor Cindy wouldn’t have suffered so much, no matter who caused this.

I have researched and read the deaths of Cindy James and it is so obvious she was doing all of this herself I feel for her because she obviously had some kind of mental illness but I am very surprised anyone really thinks she was murdered? No one is going to stalk someone for all them years unseen and if by chance they did why let her die in such a tame way? Clearly the person was so obsessed with Cindy that they would of done more after such a length of time but also her earlier attacks with the stockings suggest a sexual nature and she was never raped which would of likely happened in this final attack if any of this was real I sympathise with the family because they have nothing left but to believe and defend Cindy but I do believe she did all this herself I also think she may of been abused like Ruth Finley and this was her way of acting out one thing i am almost 100% of is that Cindy did all this herself.

I have researched and read the deaths of Cindy James and it is so obvious she was doing all of this herself I feel for her because she obviously had some kind of mental illness but I am very surprised anyone really thinks she was murdered? No one is going to stalk someone for all them years unseen and if by chance they did why let her die in such a tame way? Clearly the person was so obsessed with Cindy that they would of done more after such a length of time but also her earlier attacks with the stockings suggest a sexual nature and she was never raped which would of likely happened in this final attack if any of this was real I sympathise with the family because they have nothing left but to believe and defend Cindy but I do believe she did all this herself I also think she may of been abused like Ruth Finley and this was her way of acting out one thing i am almost 100% of is that Cindy did all this herself.

Welcome! :wave:

I'll forever be on the fence for this one. I just can't explain the placement of Cindy's body if she committed suicide...

Comment: No one is going to stalk someone for all them years unseen and if by chance they did why let her die in such a tame way?

It just as crazy to think she did it to her self.....

Cindy was murdered, and it breaks my heart when people blame her for her death when the real culprit is still at large.

I have researched and read the deaths of Cindy James and it is so obvious she was doing all of this herself I feel for her because she obviously had some kind of mental illness but I am very surprised anyone really thinks she was murdered? No one is going to stalk someone for all them years unseen and if by chance they did why let her die in such a tame way? Clearly the person was so obsessed with Cindy that they would of done more after such a length of time but also her earlier attacks with the stockings suggest a sexual nature and she was never raped which would of likely happened in this final attack if any of this was real I sympathise with the family because they have nothing left but to believe and defend Cindy but I do believe she did all this herself I also think she may of been abused like Ruth Finley and this was her way of acting out one thing i am almost 100% of is that Cindy did all this herself.


I agree.

Plus, the phone message that was recorded was clearly a woman.

It was her.

Welcome! :wave:

I'll forever be on the fence for this one. I just can't explain the placement of Cindy's body if she committed suicide...

:wave:

That is odd and I can't explain that one but I do believe she committed suicide.

I agree.

Plus, the phone message that was recorded was clearly a woman.

It was her.

:clap

Can't take it anymore. Had to add the Cindy haters to my ignore list. I just can't wrap my head around people blaming her while the true killer roams the streets.

This is so crazy

Crazy to think she did it to her self

Crazy to think anyone would do this to her

Can't take it anymore. Had to add the Cindy haters to my ignore list. I just can't wrap my head around people blaming her while the true killer roams the streets.

Grow up already...

No one is “hating” on Cindy. I have a lot of sympathy for her. But I also want the truth to come out, WHATEVER THAT MAY BE. You continually ignore the facts of this case. Try doing a little more reading on this case instead of getting angry at people discussing the facts. There is equal evidence that someone did this to her or that she did some or all of this herself. Even if she did this to herself, she was mentally ill and needed help. She is a victim no matter what the cause was.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But if others don’t share that view, it doesn’t mean they hate the victim or blame her.

Is it to far off base to think maybe she was stalked by a woman? Maybe that is why the sexual undertones yet no rape, and the ladies voice on the VM. Can we look into that? Everyone is thinking male yet there have been some strange things done by woman

I honestly don’t know what to think here. Yes, much of the evidence suggests Cindy did this to herself. But there are incidents that would be tough if not impossible for her to have done herself.

I don’t believe that her friends and family that were witness to any of the events would lie for her to clear her name. If there is a situation where a friend or family member has a mental illness, while you may not want to advertise it to the world, I can’t see flat out lying about it. I can see them saying “no comment”. But we don’t see that here.

I have mentioned it somewhere else on the forum, either in another thread for this case or possibly the Whackers, but I have a personal experience (sort of) to share.

Years ago, my mother was being stalked in a similar manner to what Cindy might have been going through in the beginning. I won’t get heavily in to details, but basically my mother was house sitting for (for ease of explanation a friend of a friend) this person (a woman, not that it matters imo) while they were away. Not staying in the home, but feeding the pets, watering plants, getting mail,etc.

Well, a short time after this woman returned, she began contacting my mother and accusing her of stealing something from the woman’s attic. Well, not only did my mother not even know there was an attic, let alone how to get into it, my mother has not been in the best of health for years and would not even physically be able to climb into an attic like she described. In fact, she really wasn’t even in good enough shape to house sit, but she did anyway because that’s the type of person she is.

Anyway, this woman kept harassing my mom repeatedly for years. Phone calls, notes left on her doorstep, vandalizing her car, all kinds of stuff (I honestly can’t even remember everything), but luckily nothing violent. Although the notes threatened violence. All reported to the police, but of course they can’t do anything.

Well, the frequency of the incidents increased and my mom was clearly becoming emotionally unstable due to the stress of everything. She kept trying to get a restraining order but there were a lot of legal hoops because there was no direct evidence of what had been done.

Eventually, in a complete fluke, my uncle just happened to stop by my moms place when she wasn’t home and caught this woman approaching the house. This scared the woman and she jumped in her car and sped off.

My mom lived on a cul de sac where the neighbors all knew each other and watched out for each other. Other members of our family even lived one house away at the time and were watching for suspicious people at my moms request, they never saw this woman. Nobody ever saw this woman doing anything to the house. I still lived at home during this and being a home body I never saw this woman. My step dad, who lived with us, never saw this woman.

Of course my family never doubted my moms word on any of this, but we were concenered she was heading for a breakdown at the time. But had my uncle been 5 or 10 minutes later or earlier in stopping by, it is quite possible that nobody would have ever seen this woman. And this was years of harassment.

Also, the incidents would happen, escalate, and then stop for a while. At one point over a year went by with no trouble. Then they would start up again right where they left off.

So you can see the similarities here. Eventually my mom was able to get a restraining order and even then a few more incidents happened (again with no witnesses). My mom reported each one and so far as I know police went to talk to the woman about violating the order and she threatened the cops at her own home and eventually she took off and left the state or something. That was about 10 years ago and luckily it seems to have stopped.

My point with all of this is that YES, it is possible for harassment like this to happen without any witnesses.

So with Cindy’s case, I think as suggested earlier, she was likely pushed over the edge and probably felt that withholding info might be protecting those she cared for. Maybe even some cases she did do herself just to get the attention (and hopefully some police help rather than ridicule), but in he end, I think she was murdered.

No one is "hating" Cindy. I looked over some of the comments/opinions and I didnt see anything that was offensive or insulting towards Cindy or her family. The truth is simple. There is so much more information on this case that isnt included in the segment. The facts and information myself and others have provided came from documented accounts of the case, given by investigators, doctors, family and friends. No one just made this information up.

Allan Connolly, M.D. is interviewed in the UM segment. He is listed as "Cindy's Psychotherapist"...in reality he was a GP or General Practitioner. He was never certified in psychology. Why his background wasnt actually confirmed by UM is obviously unknown but at the time he was Cindy's doctor he was not licensed to practice psychiatry and certainly was not a psychotherapist. He did state that Cindy told him she planned to commit suicide by overdosing on "sleeping pills". A suicide note was found bidding farewell to friends and family.

In the segment Cindy's father is adamant regarding Cindy's mental health. He states "theres just no question that she was not mentally ill." My goodness..she was treated in several psychiatric facilities, several different times. She had to be moved to a "more secure" facility because she attempted to escape. She had to be physically restrained by hospital staff. She was moved to a "locked" psychiatric facility where she was treated by Dr. Soo Moon Choi. Cindy's parents visited her in the psych ward. She was treated with Anti-Depressant and Anti-Psychotic medications. Dr. Choi noted "improvement" in Cindy's condition after she began receiving treatment to the point they did not have to insert a feeding tube. Yes, it was so bad that they attempted to insert a feeding tube (her parents were there at that time as well) But she wasnt suffering from mental illness??

I respect everyones opinions on this case. I wont block anyone simply because they have different views than my own.

Either way, whether it was suicide or murder, the Vancouver Police look like a bunch of fools. Thinman mentioned that in seven years, some kind of evidence would have surfaced. That may be true...but how come in seven years the police could never catch Cindy doing these things to herself? Come on, seven years is a long time. If an attack always seemed to happen when surveillance was taken off her house why didn't the police just trick her and tell her that it was taken off but instead stay and see if they could catch her in the act? This isn't rocket science here. If the police was so convinced that she was doing this to herself, they should have got the proof first instead of making accusations.

I'm not much on this case but that aspect always stood out to me. I was unaware dynoguy spotlighted it so long ago. When you're doing it to yourself for so long the police are made to be the fool. That wears on them mentally and physically, to the point they'll be more determined to uncover that type of thing than even a stalker event. It feels so satisfying to turn the tables and flaunt in the media, like that female teacher who was foiled as her own stalker. The fact that Vancouver police apparently never found Cindy in the act is more meaningful to me than flimsy speculation that self administered was feasible.

Who cares if it was feasible? Much more relevant is...Was it likely? That's the proposal I always make on the sports forums. Believe me, I'm not always well appreciated there. Some loudmouths on those forums have made a career out of identifying an outlier example, like some college football team that was unranked in preseason yet won the championship. Until I showed up they were heralded on those boards. Somehow they sit back like they've won the argument. Then they despise me because I mockingly congratulate them, on finding an 80-1 example. One 80-1 example. Well done. In recent history you've found one 80-1 shot that came through. Maybe that's why it's 80-1 and not a billion to one. We can be giddy at our 1.25% chance.

I imagine I wouldn't be popular among the detectives or FBI agents either. I'd certainly be laughing when their assertion flunks all prongs of probability. The idiot who said tying herself up within 3 minutes was feasible comes to mind. Three minutes is a hell of a long time. That's a boxing round. You've got all these lethal drugs in your system and apparently have already disposed of the syringes far away where they could never be found, and now you still leave yourself the immense burden of 3 solid minutes to make it look good. Good plan. I'm sure Cindy practiced and practiced to get down to those 3 minutes or thereabouts. She memorized and ingrained all the twists and tingles. Of course, she'd need a slightly lower dose of all those lethal drugs during the warmup sessions.

And no question she would realize she had that full 15-30 minutes during the real go, before that little matter of death. That was probably world wide common knowledge, that the combo of those exact drugs in her planned dosages injected to a female of her age and frame would allow 15-30 minutes. Only a stone moron would believe any type of hurry was apropos.

I always wonder how I could possibly control myself in that jury box... cellar the laughter...when these experts are matter of factly rattling off their cute sterilized boundaries, like 15-30 minute window and only 3 minutes required to self restrain.

Yeah, that prosecutor made the right move in dumping me after voir dire and my Circus Circus story.

Awsi, you need to PM me the Circus Circus voir dire story, because I'm intrigued.

One thing I’ve always loved about the UM segment on this case: Knot Expert.

How the hell do you really get THAT title? Can you get a PhD in knots? I’ll bet that persons parents are proud:

Family friend “You must be so proud of Timmy, going to school for 8 years, even if it did cost $150,000. What did he get his PhD in again?”

Parent: “Knots”

Knot Expert, maybe they can but can someone like me (not a knot expert) tie that knot as fast?

One thing I’ve always loved about the UM segment on this case: Knot Expert.

How the hell do you really get THAT title? Can you get a PhD in knots? I’ll bet that persons parents are proud:

Family friend “You must be so proud of Timmy, going to school for 8 years, even if it did cost $150,000. What did he get his PhD in again?”

Parent: “Knots”

It's probably part of a cluster of things you have to learn in police training or some kind of investigative work. But that's just a guess on my part.

janiesue does bring up a good point, however. The knot expert at the inquest showed how quickly he could hogtie himself in a span of two minutes. That's fine and good if you're a knot expert. But if you're a regular everyday schmo like me, you're not going to know what the hell you're doing.

Add in the fact that you've got roughly 90 tablets of flurazepam and morphine in your system and you have just minutes left before losing consciousness and you can STILL successfully hogtie yourself...that's kind of asking a lot to believe.

It's probably part of a cluster of things you have to learn in police training or some kind of investigative work. But that's just a guess on my part.

janiesue does bring up a good point, however. The knot expert at the inquest showed how quickly he could hogtie himself in a span of two minutes. That's fine and good if you're a knot expert. But if you're a regular everyday schmo like me, you're not going to know what the hell you're doing.

Add in the fact that you've got roughly 90 tablets of flurazepam and morphine in your system and you have just minutes left before losing consciousness and you can STILL successfully hogtie yourself...that's kind of asking a lot to believe.

#truth: this is what gets me every-time I go back and forth...
1. Did she know how to "hog tie her self"
2. was she fast enough to do it before the med kicked in
3. How many times did HE practice this before showing how it was done
4. Did she practice
5. How would she know if she had time to do this after the med. I know she was a nurse BUT everyone response to med differently. Being such a high dose it is not like she could practice and time her self. It was a one time shot to get it right

#truth: this is what gets me every-time I go back and forth...
1. Did she know how to "hog tie her self"
2. was she fast enough to do it before the med kicked in
3. How many times did HE practice this before showing how it was done
4. Did she practice
5. How would she know if she had time to do this after the med. I know she was a nurse BUT everyone response to med differently. Being such a high dose it is not like she could practice and time her self. It was a one time shot to get it right

I'll have to go back and check Neal Hall's book, but if I remember correctly, the knots weren't that tight. If she really had been "hog tied" to prevent movement, it is likely they would have been tighter. This was one of the reasons they thought she may have tied herself up.

As for the medication, if she took it orally as suspected, she may have had quite a while before it became debilitating. IV medication would kick it pretty fast but oral medication would take a while, giving her more than enough time.

As someone else, it's hard to put too much stock in the knot expert as Cindy likely had a much different background. I'm sure she could have practiced quite a bit if she wanted to. If she did it to herself, I doubt she came up with this plan on the spur of the moment. There is still also the possibility that someone else did this to her with her consent (in an attempt to get attention).

A lot of people are hung up on the actual scene where the body was found, and all of the inconsistencies there. I agree -- but also don't forget how bizarre the alleged abduction scene was, and how little evidence of an actual stranger abduction was there. UM didn't go into any detail on this, but Neal Hall goes over it in great detail in his book. That scene was almost certainly staged. As with almost everything in this case, nothing makes a whole lot of sense.

This information comes directly from Neal Hall's book. The information was takin from the Coroners Inquest/Cause of Death hearing.

Robert Chisnell, a "knot expert" was brought into the courtroom to testify and explain the knots/ligatures that were found at the death scene.

He stated the knots that were found on Cindy's hands and feet were in the form of a "slip loop." (A slip loop knot requires no great skill to tie, it is common in the fishing sport and used to tie fishing lures and fishing hooks)

He stated that the knots were then used to form a "box arrangement". (The box arrangement is exactly as it sounds, its formation is common to secure birthday presents, christmas presents, cake boxes etc. It can be formed using twine, ribbon, rope etc.)

He also testified that the "stockings" that were used to form the slip loop knots around Cindy's wrists and ankles were "loose enough to be slipped off."

He then demonstrated all of this in front of the jury, the entire jury actually stood to watch the demonstration. Using the same measurements found on the ligatures/knots Chisnell first began by tying the stocking ligature around his neck, he then tied the "slip loops" and slid his arms and hands into the loops to complete the formation, to complete the demonstration he then laid on the floor with his arms/legs tied behind his back and the ligature still around his neck. The entire process took 3 minutes.

He also stated that the measurements of his own neck were larger than Cindy's. The ligature measurement was the same as the ligature found on Cindy, it did not "impede" his breathing. He was still able to communicate/breathe during the demonstration.

Okay, so the knot expert (I’m sorry but I am still laughing at the importance that title suggests), could do it. And they were simple knots that Cindy could have done.

But what about the instances where she received phone calls with others present? Or where prowlers were heard outside when her friends were present? She had to have an accomplice at the very least. Who was this person? It seems her circle of friends was likely small given the circumstances. So the list of suspects here would be short. Just seems unlikely to me in the end that she staged the entire thing. Some instances, maybe. But not all.

Okay, so the knot expert (I’m sorry but I am still laughing at the importance that title suggests), could do it. And they were simple knots that Cindy could have done.

But what about the instances where she received phone calls with others present? Or where prowlers were heard outside when her friends were present? She had to have an accomplice at the very least. Who was this person? It seems her circle of friends was likely small given the circumstances. So the list of suspects here would be short. Just seems unlikely to me in the end that she staged the entire thing. Some instances, maybe. But not all.

I think many of us believe this was likely a combination of real and staged incidents (as RobinW laid out in “The Trail Went Cold” podcast).

Oddly enough, there are almost no verifiable accounts of other people being there. A couple of times the Woodcock’s (Cindy’s friends) claim to have seen someone in the area near the time of an attack. A couple people witnessed Cindy get a call or claim to have picked up her phone and heard nothing — but those could be faked or just a coincidence. Cindy would claim to here noises, yet they weren’t necessarily signs of an attacker. But there are no instances when it can be proven that it was without a doubt someone else doing this. And therein lies the problem.

Remember, this went on for YEARS, often with many months in between. Her phone lines were cut more times than the police could count. So someone had it out for her so bad that they dedicated their life to harassing Cindy... or she was orchestrating this herself.

I do think this was likely started by someone else and then Cindy grew frustrated with the police so it took on a life of its own. I agree with dynoguy88 that the police blew this case. Had they done a better job in the beginning, Cindy would still be alive and she’d have received the medical help she needed.

I do think this was likely started by someone else and then Cindy grew frustrated with the police so it took on a life of its own. I agree with dynoguy88 that the police blew this case. Had they done a better job in the beginning, Cindy would still be alive and she’d have received the medical help she needed.

I'm always going to ride the fence on this case. I can't conclusively choose one side over the other.

But sometimes thinking about her orchestrating the whole thing can, at times, be just as disturbing as the thought of some crazy tormenting her. The process of staging such incidents year after year after year would have consumed every moment of her life. And they would have become extra difficult to pull off once the Woodcocks were living with her full time.

Those cut and paste letters/posters would have taken a tedious amount of time to make. Climbing a ladder in her backyard to cut her phone lines dozens of times. Unscrewing her porch lamps.

All those times her garden was vandalized, dead cats were thrown in her yard. Most of them with cords tied around their necks. Would that mean Cindy was constantly driving the neighborhood looking for cats to kill? My head spins just trying to picture such a thing.

If she was doing this to her self, why kill her self now? What was the point?

There are some much better ways she could have ended this. One being, if she truly wanted to kill her self why not stage it with a letter from the (stalker). It would have been another slap in the police face that way.

If she was doing this to her self I can not see her plan was to die, it could have been another staged attack that went to far, thinking she would have been found sooner?

If she was doing this to her self, why kill her self now? What was the point?

There are some much better ways she could have ended this. One being, if she truly wanted to kill her self why not stage it with a letter from the (stalker). It would have been another slap in the police face that way.

If she was doing this to her self I can not see her plan was to die, it could have been another staged attack that went to far, thinking she would have been found sooner?

Shortly before Cindy disappeared it was reported that Cindy's friends were leaving her "en masse". Investigators and Doctors agreed that Cindy may have felt "abandoned" due to losing the majority of her "support system." Why, in a fairly short amount of time would some of Cindy's friends remove themselves from her life? Some excuses were that they were changing jobs or going on "holiday"/vacation. For whatever reason some of Cindy's friends removed themselves from the situation.


Another important fact that alot of people are unaware of. In April of 1989 several weeks before Cindy disappeared RCMP Investigator Anderson installed a "secret" video camera in the shed of one of Cindy's Neighbors. His name was Ted Jamieson. The camera was focused directly on the back of Cindy's residence and would record 24/7. Mr. Jamieson was the only "civilian" at the time who was supposed to know about this camera. Obviously the plan was to seek the cooperation from more of Cindy's neighbors to allow "secret" cameras to be placed on their properties so Cindy's residence could be monitored from different angles 24/7. As Anderson was working out the kinks of these secret cameras Cindy disappeared.


So, in the last few weeks before Cindy's disappearance some of her "support system" left "en masse." Why???? Why would some of her closest friends suddenly "leave" all around the same time?? Apparently not just leave but remove themselves from her life?? I believe Cindy found out about the secret cameras that law enforcement were putting up around her residence. I wouldnt be surprised if a neighbor told her. She cant suddenly move out, considering she had told several people she wasnt going to "run" anymore. She cant lash out at the police or her neighbors due to these secret cameras because all they have to say is they were attempting to "help." All this occuring in a short period of time, did it push Cindy to her breaking point?? With these cameras in place and her neighbors suddenly involved more than ever a real attack or real incident would easily be discovered. If Cindy was faking attacks etc this would easily be discovered as well. All this occurs within a few weeks of Cindy's disappearance.

So before bed this pop's in my head

The blood in the car. Where did it come from???
If you say Cindy, then how? Did she have any cuts? Fat lip?

In-order to have blood you have to have a injury for the blood to come from. If there is no injury for the blood then I have to go to she did this to her self and the (needle) mark was to drawl blood and placed it in the car.

So before bed this pop's in my head

The blood in the car. Where did it come from???
If you say Cindy, then how? Did she have any cuts? Fat lip?

In-order to have blood you have to have a injury for the blood to come from. If there is no injury for the blood then I have to go to she did this to her self and the (needle) mark was to drawl blood and placed it in the car.

Small correction; the blood was on the outside, on the drivers side door. I think specifically on the door handle, but I can't remember exactly. I'd have to check the book.

So before bed this pop's in my head

The blood in the car. Where did it come from???
If you say Cindy, then how? Did she have any cuts? Fat lip?

In-order to have blood you have to have a injury for the blood to come from. If there is no injury for the blood then I have to go to she did this to her self and the (needle) mark was to drawl blood and placed it in the car.


Dynoguy88 is correct. The blood was found on the outside of the vehicle. it was found on the drivers side door handle. No blood was found on the ground or inside the vehicle etc.

According to Agnes Woodcock, Cindy always attempted to park as close as possible to buildings, banks etc. On this day she parked further out in the parking lot, away from the buildings.

Tracy Mclean who saw Cindy that day stated she seemed "fixated" on parking where she did. She did not report seeing anyone suspicious in the area.

Just like all of the other attacks no one saw or heard anything.

RCMP Investigator Anderson stated "Its a very poor spot to do an abduction."

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that the small needle mark found on Cindys arm was probably a "blood collection site" rather than an injection site.

Here's the deal. From the photos I've seen of Cindy, a reasonable person would most likely consider her an attractive woman. If Cindy wasn't a good looking woman, this case would not have garnered the attention that it has. I have always felt Cindy was seriously mentally ill and there were no perpetrators involved. It was all one giant cry for help

I want the truth to come out so badly so it'll silence the smug you-know-whats who think Cindy did it to herself.

Yet they'd probably still find a way to blame her.

I dont blame her, in fact until just the other day I thought someone did this to her. BUT until someone can tell me how her blood got on the out side of the car when there is no report of cuts / injury's on her that would cause the blood on the out side of the car.

Now I dont think her intent was to die. I think it was a cry for help that went to far. If it is true that her friends and family started pulling away it would make total scene in her world to stage another (big) attack. In this attack she faked being tied up... Again I dont think she wanted to die,

I want the truth to come out so badly so it'll silence the smug you-know-whats who think Cindy did it to herself.

Yet they'd probably still find a way to blame her.


A JURY decided the outcome of this case during the cause of death hearing. Both sides presented their case and the outcome was based on the evidence provided.

A JURY decided the outcome of this case during the cause of death hearing. Both sides presented their case and the outcome was based on the evidence provided.

And sadly, the outcome was nothing. After nearly 12 weeks of testimony and interviews with doctors, psychiatrists, investigators, drug experts, knot specialists, police, family members and friends, the jury ruled Cindy's death unknown because it could not be conclusively proven that she died from her own hand.

As a result of that outcome from the jury, Cindy's case file remains open to this day and can STILL be investigated. But it's highly unlikely any information is ever going to come to light. So her folder is doomed to remain in some file cabinet with other cold cases until the end of time, with no official proven answers.

This case is probably one of the most confusing I've seen. Just watched it *again* a few days ago and still, it's hard for me to say one way or another what happened.

This thread here (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=362081) presents info from Neal Hall's book on the case and despite what has been posted since then on *this* thread, I'll stick with the same reply I made

"I've seen this case multiple times and it's always baffled me. After reading through this thread though, I agree that at least some of the incidents were staged by Cindy herself

Despite the seeming police ineptitude as well, I'll have to go from 'on the fence' to 'suicide'. Reason being, not only did the investigative journalist (and author of the book cited?) mention that she would've had time to tie herself up after ingesting the drugs, but that no clear motive or substantive evidence for her murder was ever discovered.

I know at the area in which she was found, there was no disturbance--no one heard or saw anything--and on this point, I really can't offer an explanation. Given how she died and the method though, I would think that if she was murdered, than she would certainly not be the killer's first or only victim thus far."

Welcome! :wave:

I'll forever be on the fence for this one. I just can't explain the placement of Cindy's body if she committed suicide...

She simply took morphine pills and then tied herself up, most likely hoping someone would find her and she could play the ultimate victim. Aka “SEE GUYS? How could I do this to myself? “ When she was discovered. Only she wasn’t discovered and took too many pills so she ODed. I think she took more of the drug than she thught she could handle. (Its very easy to OD on opiates). So she laid there and died in a sort of remote area expecting to be found and being able to p,ay the ultimate victim card , only it didnt happen.

Btw for those who dont know, taking opiates via orally can take around 45min up to an hour to hit you. Pleeeeeenty of time to do her deed. Then once the pills kicked in they probably hit her like a truck and there was no turning back.

I'm pretty sure, just from memory, there were injection marks on the body.

IV narcotics aren't slow acting. So the idea that she tied herself up after injecting herself is already a stretch, but to have also apparently run around and hidden the needle so well that it has never surfaced seems improbable.

The field, for me, for someone who did all that she did for attention (per the theory) it doesn't add up she'd go missing and be found in an isolated rural location.

Those could VERY easily be old injection marks. She could have injected a week prior, then taken them orally during her deed.

Cindy was murdered, and it breaks my heart when people blame her for her death when the real culprit is still at large.

In what way shape or form do you thnk she was murderd? How did you come to that conclusion? Just curious.

Can't take it anymore. Had to add the Cindy haters to my ignore list. I just can't wrap my head around people blaming her while the true killer roams the streets.

Cindy haters? Just because people disagree with you doesnt mean they hate someone. This message board is for conversations and debating cases and whatnot, no? Why censor those who have different views than your own? I dont get it.

It's probably part of a cluster of things you have to learn in police training or some kind of investigative work. But that's just a guess on my part.

janiesue does bring up a good point, however. The knot expert at the inquest showed how quickly he could hogtie himself in a span of two minutes. That's fine and good if you're a knot expert. But if you're a regular everyday schmo like me, you're not going to know what the hell you're doing.

Add in the fact that you've got roughly 90 tablets of flurazepam and morphine in your system and you have just minutes left before losing consciousness and you can STILL successfully hogtie yourself...that's kind of asking a lot to believe.

Not minutes. Taking opiates orally give you like 30-60min before they hit you.

Someone here mentioned a podcast called Criminally Listed. It's great!

One podcast discussed Cindy's case. Something I didn't know (assuming the podcast is correct) is that Cindy rented a room in her house out to a police officer. Eventually the two became romantically involved. Apparently the cop was present for several of the calls and even attempted to trace the calls. The trace could never be 100% completed but it was somehow determined that at least one of the calls had come from somewhere near the airport.

I wonder why the segment never mentioned this? If that information is true, Cindy wasn't stalking herself. Agnes Woodcock was not the only witness, it seems.

Someone here mentioned a podcast called Criminally Listed. It's great!

One podcast discussed Cindy's case. Something I didn't know (assuming the podcast is correct) is that Cindy rented a room in her house out to a police officer. Eventually the two became romantically involved. Apparently the cop was present for several of the calls and even attempted to trace the calls. The trace could never be 100% completed but it was somehow determined that at least one of the calls had come from somewhere near the airport.

I wonder why the segment never mentioned this? If that information is true, Cindy wasn't stalking herself. Agnes Woodcock was not the only witness, it seems.

Likely because it would have made her look bad, if it was even known about when the segment was done. Quite possible the cop was also dismissed for doing this-having a relationship with either a victim of crime or a hoaxer & possibly using force resources without permission.

Someone here mentioned a podcast called Criminally Listed. It's great!

One podcast discussed Cindy's case. Something I didn't know (assuming the podcast is correct) is that Cindy rented a room in her house out to a police officer. Eventually the two became romantically involved. Apparently the cop was present for several of the calls and even attempted to trace the calls. The trace could never be 100% completed but it was somehow determined that at least one of the calls had come from somewhere near the airport.

I wonder why the segment never mentioned this? If that information is true, Cindy wasn't stalking herself. Agnes Woodcock was not the only witness, it seems.

Fascinating!!

I've always believed that Cindy was murdered. There are people who are so certain she did it to herself. It's gotten to the point where I block the victim-blamers on here. At least I don't have to see their cruel posts anymore.

Fascinating!!

I've always believed that Cindy was murdered. There are people who are so certain she did it to herself. It's gotten to the point where I block the victim-blamers on here. At least I don't have to see their cruel posts anymore.

Just because someone disagrees with your theories and opinions doesn’t make them cruel or wrong, etc

Just because someone disagrees with your theories and opinions doesn’t make them cruel or wrong, etc

It's gotten so old from alistaircranium on this topic, as you can't even have a rational discussion about facts without being accused of hating on Cindy. I think she likely did this to herself, but I still feel she was a victim of abuse and I feel horrible for her. No matter what, that poor woman suffered a lot in her young life. But to ignore the facts in this case is just plain silly, and alistaircranium doesn't want to deal with facts.

I wonder why the segment never mentioned this?
There is SO much information that the UM story left out. There is a lot of evidence to support the stalking theory and a lot to support the "she did it to herself" theory. However, one of the biggest pieces they left out is how the scene was staged at Cindy's "abduction" before she disappeared. There is a lot wrong with that whole scene.

I think she likely kept increasing the gruesomeness of the attacks to get attention: the knife through the hand, the stockings around her neck, the final knots, etc. Also, the fact that she kept using the black stockings around her neck may indicate a theme from past abuse (which she very likely experienced earlier in life).

Cindy had a very messed up life (with a whole lot of trauma) at best, so she suffered a great deal. It seems that her inability to cope and/or get proper help manifested itself into a lot of her bizarre behavior. If you ever get the chance to read Neal Hall's book on this case, I highly recommend it.

That Hall was pointing out the inconsistencies in her story & he wrote the book on the case speaks volumes. I think this case is similar to the Wackers & L'Enfant-whoever was doing it was the people themselves or those extremely close to them.

The facts prove she was stalked and murdered. You are choosing to be wrong. Clearly you're never going to change your mind so I won't bother with you. I'll simply add you to my ignore list and move on.

The facts prove she was stalked and murdered. You are choosing to be wrong. Clearly you're never going to change your mind so I won't bother with you. I'll simply add you to my ignore list and move on.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

There is SO much information that the UM story left out. There is a lot of evidence to support the stalking theory and a lot to support the "she did it to herself" theory.

That's why I really loved the book. It answers every question you might have had on earlier viewings of the segment. From big things like, what did the note say that was pinned with the knife through her hand? To little random things that might have crossed your brain like what was the wrapped gift found in her car? It also brings up so many things that the segment never mentioned which is understandable. You can't really cram 6 1/2 years into a 12 minute segment.

Likely because it would have made her look bad, if it was even known about when the segment was done. Quite possible the cop was also dismissed for doing this-having a relationship with either a victim of crime or a hoaxer & possibly using force resources without permission.

On the surface, Pat McBride's relationship with Cindy might seem a little scandalous but there's not much there. He was one of the cops who answered to Cindy's earliest complaints of harassment. They formed a friendship and he mentioned needing to find a place to live. Cindy had a spare bedroom to rent out and she offered it to him and he took it. Their friendship eventually developed in to a romance and they even started double dating for a while with Cindy's ex-husband and his new love interest...which seems all kinds of awkward but, whatever. They were still on good terms. Eventually, Pat asked Cindy to marry him and she declined. He moved out shortly afterwards and they had no contact with each other the last 4 years of Cindy's life.

McBride wasn't dismissed for this relationship though it was looked at, publicly, as a little trashy once the inquest took place. He also didn't use resources without permission. The old school phone tracer was installed by Ozzie Kaban, not the police. And yes, McBride was sitting next to Cindy at the kitchen table when he answered one of those threatening calls.

That Hall was pointing out the inconsistencies in her story & he wrote the book on the case speaks volumes.

Neal Hall wrote the book before the Unsolved Mysteries segment was filmed. When he appeared on 'W5' to discuss the case, he said, "I now believe that it was a suicide." That would suggest he was still on the fence about her death when he wrote the book. And it was pretty clear how he felt once the UM segment was filmed. Especially when he tilted his head and asked, "Does that make sense?"

Neal Hall wrote the book before the Unsolved Mysteries segment was filmed. When he appeared on 'W5' to discuss the case, he said, "I now believe that it was a suicide." That would suggest he was still on the fence about her death when he wrote the book. And it was pretty clear how he felt once the UM segment was filmed. Especially when he tilted his head and asked, "Does that make sense?"

This is a great (and often misunderstood) point, dynoguy. I’m glad you brought this up. People who have only seen the UM story often think Neal Hall was anti-Cindy. But his book was very middle of the road and he kept saying that there wasn’t a clear cause or explanation. Only at the end did he sort of side with suicide. However he painted a very good picture of Cindy and focused on her past trauma and potential abuse. I thought he was very sympathetic towards her.

The UM story makes it seem like he was out to get her, but really it was him just taking an objective look at the facts.

The facts prove she was stalked and murdered. You are choosing to be wrong. Clearly you're never going to change your mind so I won't bother with you. I'll simply add you to my ignore list and move on.

Nice to see you keeping an open mind-the facts such as they are suggest it could be murder or a hoax. Of course it could also have been a hoax & that she just happened to run into a killer.

The facts prove she was stalked and murdered. You are choosing to be wrong. Clearly you're never going to change your mind so I won't bother with you. I'll simply add you to my ignore list and move on.
I am impressed you used "you're" instead of "your" there. Puts you a cut above most internet posters.

Since there are new replies since my last post, I feel it's worth sharing that the users on my ignore list are James T, Todd Muelller, Freakbook, and cordwainer1453. If you're one of them and you're reading this, no need to reply to my posts because I can't see them. :-)

All right, y’all. Time for my reminder to keep it civil. We can agree to disagree on cases, as it keeps life interesting.

JohnUM previously mentioned the placement of Cindy’s body as being plausible. While I respect the opinion, I disagree. It sounds like her body was found in a very busy location— so how did it go unseen for so long?

I say that still not knowing what happened. I can’t let go of the homicide theory yet, although I do think there is a strong case for suicide. I want to know what changed Hall’s mind, to be honest...

JohnUM previously mentioned the placement of Cindy’s body as being plausible. While I respect the opinion, I disagree. It sounds like her body was found in a very busy location— so how did it go unseen for so long?

Very close to a busy intersection. You can see a brief glimpse of it in the background during the first few seconds of the segment.

And don't forget the squatter who lived in a van on the lot. He cooked his meals on a fire pit just five meters from where Cindy's corpse was. He never noticed any foul odor, never even noticed the body until the police showed up.

Wasn't there a doctor who she was having issues with?

Blocking people just because they have a different point of view to you? Think I have heard it all now.

All right, y’all. Time for my reminder to keep it civil. We can agree to disagree on cases, as it keeps life interesting.

JohnUM previously mentioned the placement of Cindy’s body as being plausible. While I respect the opinion, I disagree. It sounds like her body was found in a very busy location— so how did it go unseen for so long?

I say that still not knowing what happened. I can’t let go of the homicide theory yet, although I do think there is a strong case for suicide. I want to know what changed Hall’s mind, to be honest...

Maybe she thought she would be found and then wasn't for whatever fluke reason? Now that that other guy has blocked everyone, we can say what we really believe. This was definitely a suicide. When someone so stubbornly maintains a viewpoint and won't listen to any others, they have to know they are wrong and just don't want to admit it.

Very close to a busy intersection. You can see a brief glimpse of it in the background during the first few seconds of the segment.

And don't forget the squatter who lived in a van on the lot. He cooked his meals on a fire pit just five meters from where Cindy's corpse was. He never noticed any foul odor, never even noticed the body until the police showed up.

That is interesting, but what’s the implication? Is the suggestion that a cop or someone dropped off the body at the scene?

That is interesting, but what’s the implication? Is the suggestion that a cop or someone dropped off the body at the scene?

I don't know if I'd say cop, but I definitely think her body was moved. I don't believe she died where she was found. Just my opinion.

Can I ask how many have read Neal Hall’s book? It’s priced incredibly high (150 CAD minimum) on amazon and eBay. The other book on the case is at 500 minimum on amazon. Would love to be able to access these books somehow for a reasonable amount, but is it a lost cause?

While its difficult to believe Cindy was responsible for the attacks and harrassment it definately seems that way. Cindy eitheir committed these acts herself due to severe mental illness or she was the victim of an elaborate conspiracy with no motive. Those involved have to be the luckiest criminals in history to attack and harass someone for several years while leaving no evidence. People say how could she have done this to herself?? Some people with mental illness harm themselves all the time, cutting, plucking or pulling out their hair, cigarette burns etc.I think its important to remember that during that time those who suffered from mental illness were shunned or even embarrassed to seek or recieve treatment. Today, thankfully people dont have to hide or be embarrassed due to their illness. Now every other commercial on TV is an advertisement for a new anti-depressant. Blame and denial are two very powerful coping mechanisms and i believe thats what her family did. Blamed the police for bungling the case and denying the fact that Cindy suffered from Mental Illness.

Exactly. Very good post, by the way.

More victim-blaming. Nice. :rolleyes:

Cindy was stalked and murdered by an unknown culprit who has gotten away with murder for more than thirty years. Hopefully he will eventually be caught. I want to see justice done, unlike the folks who think Cindy did it.

More victim-blaming. Nice. :rolleyes:

Cindy was stalked and murdered by an unknown culprit who has gotten away with murder for more than thirty years. Hopefully he will eventually be caught. I want to see justice done, unlike the folks who think Cindy did it.

I know I'm blocked, but you have to be the loneliest poster in the world. I wonder if you see any other replies than your own?

More victim-blaming. Nice. :rolleyes:

Cindy was stalked and murdered by an unknown culprit who has gotten away with murder for more than thirty years. Hopefully he will eventually be caught. I want to see justice done, unlike the folks who think Cindy did it.


"Victim-blaming"? I don't think you know what the term means. I didn't blame anyone for being the victim of a crime.

I block people who think Cindy did it, so I’m not seeing these replies.

I block people who think Cindy did it, so I’m not seeing these replies.

Troll!:lol:

Troll!:lol:

Don't worry. You'll likely wind up seeing a post from them about how you've been added to their ignore list if you ever disagree with anything they think. Some people can't handle someone having a different opinion.

Every time I see those comments, it makes me think of the "This will make a fine addition to my collection" meme :lol:

Every time I see those comments, it makes me think of the "This will make a fine addition to my collection" meme :lol:

LOL.

By all means, let's discuss this case if they're so convinced their view is the correct one. I'm here to read about all the different kinds of opinions on these cases and if their arguments are really that strong, I could be swayed. But putting someone on ignore just for agreeing with a post is extremely silly. I haven't even talked to them before!

I know I'm on the "blocked list" but saying repeatedly "Cindy was murdered, I'll block anyone who says otherwise" is borderline Trollish behavior. Why not post a theory of what you think happened or who did it?

I know I'm on the "blocked list" but saying repeatedly "Cindy was murdered, I'll block anyone who says otherwise" is borderline Trollish behavior. Why not post a theory of what you think happened or who did it?

Because, as you said, that person is here to troll. Nothing more, nothing less.

Because, as you said, that person is here to troll. Nothing more, nothing less.


Tony Ballesteros killed David Stone.

This is one of those maybe 5% of UM cases..maybe less that are so fascinating because you can't really come to a coherent conclusion on it. there are many things that make you think that cindy was doing it to herself. but then again there are many things that tell you she wasn't.

i always found it interesting that she was in a relationship with a police detective, who obviously could have steered the investigation in another direction if it was him doing the stalking. the man seen at the bottom of her garden after the fire...

i also never bought the idea that she would kill herself the way she did, when there would be much simpler methods.

I think most of the attacks on her was of her own doing and maybe she got attention from someone who assisted her in setting things up, the last one went wrong and she died from it.

More victim-blaming. Nice. :rolleyes:

Cindy was stalked and murdered by an unknown culprit who has gotten away with murder for more than thirty years. Hopefully he will eventually be caught. I want to see justice done, unlike the folks who think Cindy did it.


I haven't researched this case in forever...did some proof of which you speak come to light?

This is one of those maybe 5% of UM cases..maybe less that are so fascinating because you can't really come to a coherent conclusion on it. there are many things that make you think that cindy was doing it to herself. but then again there are many things that tell you she wasn't.

i always found it interesting that she was in a relationship with a police detective, who obviously could have steered the investigation in another direction if it was him doing the stalking. the man seen at the bottom of her garden after the fire...

i also never bought the idea that she would kill herself the way she did, when there would be much simpler methods.

Her dead body was not in the yard of that house for for something like two weeks after she died. Someone put her body there after she died, likely her killer.

Her dead body was not in the yard of that house for for something like two weeks after she died. Someone put her body there after she died, likely her killer.

It was most likely the guy that was seen outside the neighbor's place when the fire started there.

Her dead body was not in the yard of that house for for something like two weeks after she died. Someone put her body there after she died, likely her killer.

She hadn't been dead two weeks when she was found.

Is it possible she staged all this? Yes, but very, very unlikely.

But you also have to look at it.. Could someone do all this to her so perfectly that they didn't leave any clues that they even existed, much less who they were? that's.. Also very, very unlikely.

She certainly had some psychological problems.. But it also concerns me that she disappeared on May 29th. Was found 2 weeks later, so.. mid June.. And case was closed as suicide in July.

Seems.. Awful quick on the trigger there to call it for what would have to be a very, very convoluted case.

One of the few cases that "Alien Abduction" has about as high a chance of being true as the other theories.

It was most likely the guy that was seen outside the neighbor's place when the fire started there.

You want a logical explanation for that? Guy ran off to call the fire department. It was 1989.. Didn't have a cell phone. So, what exactly would he have done when asked to call the fire department? Stood there? No, he'd have to go to where there was a phone. and, he'd probably be running to get there.

I suspect on this.. If you were to look at the logs of who called a fire in.. You might find whoever this person is on that list.

Another, valid, explanation is.. He didn't want to get involved. Odd thing to say but.. If I find a dead body on the side of the road and call the police to report it. Who is suspect numero uno? ME. With luck, there's enough evidence there to say I didn't do it. I was just a good samaritan who came across the body and did the right thing. But.. I'd be the prime suspect for a time, at least. Same thing with calling in a fire.

She hadn't been dead two weeks when she was found.

Is it possible she staged all this? Yes, but very, very unlikely.

But you also have to look at it.. Could someone do all this to her so perfectly that they didn't leave any clues that they even existed, much less who they were? that's.. Also very, very unlikely.

She certainly had some psychological problems.. But it also concerns me that she disappeared on May 29th. Was found 2 weeks later, so.. mid June.. And case was closed as suicide in July.

Seems.. Awful quick on the trigger there to call it for what would have to be a very, very convoluted case.

One of the few cases that "Alien Abduction" has about as high a chance of being true as the other theories.



The private detective she hired didn't believe she was doing it to herself, the doctor who treated her in the hospital didn't see any signs of mental health issues. she had a life before all this and never shown any signs of paranoia or mental illness. something changed when she got divorced and moved away.

What makes you think she was doing it to herself was the fact that nothing happened to her when her house was being watched, but let's say it was her police detective "friend" doing this to her, for whatever reason? his job would inform him that the house was being watched and therefore he wouldn't stalk her.

In another comment you say that the man at the botton of the garden ran away to call 911!?!? why when the street was full of houses with phones and no need to run to a pay phone, makes zero sense. and the way it's told to us, is that he ran away to get away, not to phone 911. why didnt he return?

The way she was found, seems too unrealistic when it comes to a suicide theory. makes no sense either.

however what i will say, because like i've already said, this case is too strange, i'll never understand why cindy took her dog for walks at 2am, when she was supposedly being stalked, she told her parents "i know something that i can't say" i don't get why she didn't say it when her life was at risk

the problem we have here is that something is clearly missing, an important part of the case is missing. we're not being told something.

The private detective she hired didn't believe she was doing it to herself, the doctor who treated her in the hospital didn't see any signs of mental health issues. she had a life before all this and never shown any signs of paranoia or mental illness. something changed when she got divorced and moved away.

What makes you think she was doing it to herself was the fact that nothing happened to her when her house was being watched, but let's say it was her police detective "friend" doing this to her, for whatever reason? his job would inform him that the house was being watched and therefore he wouldn't stalk her.

In another comment you say that the man at the botton of the garden ran away to call 911!?!? why when the street was full of houses with phones and no need to run to a pay phone, makes zero sense. and the way it's told to us, is that he ran away to get away, not to phone 911. why didnt he return?

The way she was found, seems too unrealistic when it comes to a suicide theory. makes no sense either.

however what i will say, because like i've already said, this case is too strange, i'll never understand why cindy took her dog for walks at 2am, when she was supposedly being stalked, she told her parents "i know something that i can't say" i don't get why she didn't say it when her life was at risk

the problem we have here is that something is clearly missing, an important part of the case is missing. we're not being told something.

Well, in this post, you've ruined your credibility, because i've said no such things.

"You want a logical explanation for that? Guy ran off to call the fire department. It was 1989.. Didn't have a cell phone. So, what exactly would he have done when asked to call the fire department? Stood there? No, he'd have to go to where there was a phone. and, he'd probably be running to get there."

not really looking for "credibility" just some interesting discussion on a fascinating case. thanks for your input.

The private detective she hired didn't believe she was doing it to herself, the doctor who treated her in the hospital didn't see any signs of mental health issues. she had a life before all this and never shown any signs of paranoia or mental illness. something changed when she got divorced and moved away.

Technically, she didn't get divorced until years after her torment started. It was a few months after separating from her husband that her problems actually started. But again, this is rather odd because according to the books, she and her husband had a healthy split with very little drama. They remained on good terms for years. After she had moved out, Roy told her he would find a small apartment and offered her to live in the big house they shared together until they could get it sold and split their savings. When Cindy started dating Pat McBride, Roy also got a new girlfriend and the four of them would double date at times! Which...awkward, O.K. But again, no drama. Not once did they ever discuss getting back together but Roy was concerned for her safety. Cindy refused to believe for years that Roy was behind her harassment. Not until the final year of her life when certain police officers forced her to take on that belief.

The end of the marriage itself and their response to it was not really traumatic. That's why it's a little hard to imagine the breakup was so severe that it would have caused such a slow drive into a severe mental illness. And like you said, she was a perfectly functional adult with no issues whatsoever for the first 38 years of her life.

The most drama attached to the ex-husband was the horrific story Cindy told under hypnosis about a trip they had taken together on their boat several years earlier where Cindy apparently witnessed Roy dismembering a body. Now THAT sounds like a traumatic event that could be repressed for years and mess with one's psyche. But Cindy's sister Melanie and her youngest brother Ken were also on that boat trip and remembered nothing out of the ordinary about it.

The most drama attached to the ex-husband was the horrific story Cindy told under hypnosis about a trip they had taken together on their boat several years earlier where Cindy apparently witnessed Roy dismembering a body. Now THAT sounds like a traumatic event that could be repressed for years and mess with one's psyche. But Cindy's sister Melanie and her youngest brother Ken were also on that boat trip and remembered nothing out of the ordinary about it.

I hesitate to call EVERY psychologist/psychiatrist or whatever the people who do this repressed memory therapy a quack.

But.. Sure seems a lot of them are.

There've been many a persons life that was ruined because someone 'uncovered a repressed memory' of them being touched when they were a kid or something.

Let's say this one.. Since there were other witnesses there who dispute it.. The one she went to I feel comfortable calling a quack.

Is it at all possible that maybe she did this all to herself and was also coincidentally a victim of a random act of violence?

Also, does anyone know where I may be able to obtain a copy of the book: “The Deaths of a Cindy James” I’ve tried looking but seems all copies are 500$ plus.

I hate to say it but a few years ago I walked into a local used bookshop and randomly scoped out the crime section, and immediately noticed the Cindy James book. $5! I live relatively close to where it all happened, though I doubt that had anything to do with my (rare) tremendous luck. Now where can I get $500 for it? :D

Technically, she didn't get divorced until years after her torment started. It was a few months after separating from her husband that her problems actually started. But again, this is rather odd because according to the books, she and her husband had a healthy split with very little drama. They remained on good terms for years. After she had moved out, Roy told her he would find a small apartment and offered her to live in the big house they shared together until they could get it sold and split their savings. When Cindy started dating Pat McBride, Roy also got a new girlfriend and the four of them would double date at times! Which...awkward, O.K. But again, no drama. Not once did they ever discuss getting back together but Roy was concerned for her safety. Cindy refused to believe for years that Roy was behind her harassment. Not until the final year of her life when certain police officers forced her to take on that belief.

The end of the marriage itself and their response to it was not really traumatic. That's why it's a little hard to imagine the breakup was so severe that it would have caused such a slow drive into a severe mental illness. And like you said, she was a perfectly functional adult with no issues whatsoever for the first 38 years of her life.

The most drama attached to the ex-husband was the horrific story Cindy told under hypnosis about a trip they had taken together on their boat several years earlier where Cindy apparently witnessed Roy dismembering a body. Now THAT sounds like a traumatic event that could be repressed for years and mess with one's psyche. But Cindy's sister Melanie and her youngest brother Ken were also on that boat trip and remembered nothing out of the ordinary about it.
I'm not saying that the divorce caused this, but all the signs point to her being completely fine before this, the doctor in the mental health hospital claimed she was fine and the private investigator thought she was telling the truth.

in other words it's a little difficult to believe she was insane and doing it to herself

Is it at all possible that maybe she did this all to herself and was also coincidentally a victim of a random act of violence?


There are things that suggest she was doing it to herself, however before all this started she had never shown signs of mental illness, had a job that we assume must have need some level of analisis when it came to her well being mentally, doctors at the mental facility believed her to be completely sane, the private detective also believed her to be telling the truth, then you have the mysterious man who ran away at the bottom of her garden during the fire, the way she was found many believe she couldn't have done it to herself...

Cindy was stalked and murdered, and the killer was never brought to justice. It’s terrible that people blame the victim.

:eek: is this the only case alistair follows?

This is my favourite case.

Cindy was stalked and murdered, and the killer was never brought to justice. It’s terrible that people blame the victim.


Why are you so sure of this?

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/519YOa8ccTL._SL500_.jpg

Has anyone listened to the Death by Unknown Event podcast on Audible? The 12 episodes are narrated by actress Pamela Adlon ("Better Things").

For seven years, Vancouver nurse Cindy James reported more than 100 separate incidents of harassment, ranging from threatening phone calls to home invasions to ritualistic assaults, including strangulations and stabbings. Canada’s Royal Mounted Police spent over a million dollars investigating her claims and found zero evidence of foul play, leading them to suspect she was making it all up. Then, in 1989, Cindy was found dead, bound and naked, half a mile from where her car was parked in a shopping mall. What happened to Cindy James remains one of the most bizarre and perplexing true crime stories in recent memory.

Death by Unknown Event illuminates the enigmatic context around James’s life, the efforts and failures of law enforcement, and the lingering theories around how she died from those closest to the case.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Death-by-Unknown-Event-Podcast/B09G8NB4GN

https://www.amazon.com/Death-by-Unknown-Event/dp/B09G8J35YZ?keywords=Danielle+Elliot+-+writer&qid=1652492410&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=happydaysonline3-20&linkId=185c557d9b9731347622b92767b7aef5&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl

Pamela Adlon narrates a Death By Unknown Event in this exclusive trailer for Audible true-crime series
https://www.avclub.com/pamela-adlon-narrates-a-death-by-unknown-event-in-this-1847727008

I always felt this had the good makings of a TV movie or a limited series because it's so odd... They seem to be popular now with true crime stories.

That's interesting about the Podcast... At least it will drum up more interest in the case.

I posted this on another thread about the topic, but also wanted to post it here since I found it interesting.


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I recently obtained "Who Killed Cindy James" from a great user on the board. I was previously very staunch in my opinion that Cindy did it all to herself. The only pieces of evidence in favor of a harasser that I could not explain were the phone calls when others were present in the house. But the book explains that while, yes, others were present in the house and did answer the phone to silent calls... only when Cindy was not in the room. (I think Kaban also answered a silent call when Cindy wasn't even at home). The BC telephone company were also able to confirm that some of the calls were made inside Cindy James' house. So overall the book so far, is all but confirming my belief that Cindy did it to herself.

However, I did come across this interesting passage just now:


Throughout 1988, everyone who knew her thought she had put the harassment behind her. That's why it was such a shock when two and a half years after the 1986 fire, on October 26, 1988, she was found unconscious in her garage. She was naked from the waist down and a black nylon stocking was wrapped around her neck. Her hands and feet were bound with a second black stocking.

Upon being revived, Cindy said she arrived home about 8:30 at night after finishing work at Richmond General Hospital. She said she sat in her car in her carport for several minutes to make sure everything was safe. But when she opened the door and stepped out of the car, she said she was grabbed from behind.

Shortly after midnight, Cindy said, she regained consciousness long enough to activate Kaban's panic button. Responding police officers found her sprawled half in and half out of her car.

Constable Jerry Anderson, a beefy mustachioed member of the RCMP General Investigation Section, was assigned the case and he proceeded skeptically. Although Anderson began his inquiries secure in the belief that this was another of Cindy's stunts, he was unable to prove that. His conclusions added to the mystery that surrounded the incidents reported by Cindy, and perplexed everyone but her family and supporters: they saw his findings as a vindication.

In the course of his investigation, Anderson consulted a knot specialist named Robert Chisnall, a young mountain climber who was pursuing a Master of Education program at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. Anderson sent Chisnall the roughly 18-inch nylon stockings used to bind Cindy and told him the RCMP needed to know whether the bonds could have been self-tied.

Chisnall's knotting experience was extensive. More than a score of knots he designed were used by mountaineers and spelunkers; others had been adapted by doctors for surgery, and he was a founding member in 1982 of the International Guild of Knot Tyers. He had written extensively on knots and been consulted by numerous police forces, rescue teams and others around the globe. He regularly testified at criminal trials as an expert witness, charging $500 a day (plus expenses) for court appearances, coroner's inquests or consultations involving travel.

Chisnall said the neck knot in the reported assault on Cindy was a simple granny knot and that her hands were tied using a series of hitches and wraps. He concluded that it was "highly unlikely" that she had tied herself up.

"There are no slip loops or other configurations that might have made the tying process easy for the complainant. I tried to simulate the tying [of the knots] on myself with similar material of equal length." But Chisnall wasn't able to duplicate the knots and concluded that Cindy "could not have tied herself in the manner described above."'

But he was puzzled by the knots. They weren't tight enough either to strangle her or to keep her bound for long. It was quite easy to slip out of the wrist knots.

Anderson was baffled. He had expected Chisnall to support the now prevalent theory that Cindy was a disturbed woman who fabricated assaults and other minor offences. Once again, suspicion arose that someone else was involved in the incidents that Cindy reported.

The suggestion that Cindy had an accomplice had been raised before, but dismissed because there was no real evidence. Friesen had often wondered about both Kaban and Cindy's ex-husband Makepeace. So had the police. There are documented cases of couples involved in sado-masochistic sex games.

Some had even been found dead after their kinky pursuits went awry. But in Cindy's case, there was no evidence to support such speculation.

The stockings themselves and Chisnall's opinion would become suspect after Cindy's death, primarily because the officers who found her unconscious in the garage had taken little care in removing them.

Chisnall's conclusions were far from airtight. Courts are leery of accepting evidence involving the comparison of knots and deductions made from the way knots are tied. And Chisnall's conclusions had been dismissed in the past by a judge for being little more than informed speculation.


Here is another interesting passage:

This passage is regarding the weekend she went missing, Johnston refers to a downstairs tenant of Cindy James.


Johnston liked Cindy, but he thought she was a little paranoid. She needed to relax. There were alarms everywhere, even though he was just downstairs. A couple of days ago, Johnston recalled, she had told him something might happen this weekend. "Something big,” she said. "We should get that fire alarm fixed." Johnston tried to reassure her and urged her to be more positive: "It's important to act, not react. Don't wallow in impotence."


And here is an interesting one regarding the possibility that Cindy may have had more than 30 minutes to tie herself up if the drugs were ingested orally.


Friesen justified the large amounts of medication he prescribed by reciting anecdotes about Cindy's behaviour during her hospital stay. For example, one night Cindy was given a dose of sedatives that should have put her out for 36 hours. Only a few hours later, however, she was awake and hysterical. That was an important piece of observation given the circumstances of Cindy's death: It suggested that she might have been conscious for much longer than toxicologists thought.

But Friesen's testimony was disquieting.
Although Cindy was ill enough to warrant large doses of medication, Friesen had not considered the possibility that she might hoard it and use it to harm herself at some later date. He worried more about her apparent addiction. Yet Cindy rarely used the drugs he prescribed, and he didn’t realize it.

Being a very little kid in the 80’s, I remember dialing my own phone number from inside my house multiple times to see what would happen. There was always a busy signal and the other phones in the house never actually rung. You couldn’t pick up the phone from upstairs and hear me over the receiver from downstairs.

So I never understood that the company could trace a couple calls coming from Cindy’s house...to Cindy’s house. Unless Canadian landlines were different.

Since some people appear to have left the building so to speak, we can discuss this case rationally now. I don't think she was trying to kill herself. I think she thought she would be found and then wasn't before she died. Pretty sad she never got help, but some people cannot be helped.

Now at least that dumb podcast thread won't be bumped anymore...

dreading (https://youtu.be/XW-nZ_XfyBc) on the Forbidden Site has a video on the Cindy James case. Having watched it, I’m on Team She Did It To Herself. The video revealed that Cindy had a history of making up stories. She once claimed to have a boyfriend who had cancer and killed himself, and she claimed that her ex killed and dismembered a couple on his boat, dumping the remains into the lake where they eventually washed ashore. Neither the boyfriend has been shown to exist, and there’s no history of her ex committing that kind of crime.

dreading (https://youtu.be/XW-nZ_XfyBc) on the Forbidden Site has a video on the Cindy James case. Having watched it, I’m on Team She Did It To Herself. The video revealed that Cindy had a history of making up stories. She once claimed to have a boyfriend who had cancer and killed himself, and she claimed that her ex killed and dismembered a couple on his boat, dumping the remains into the lake where they eventually washed ashore. Neither the boyfriend has been shown to exist, and there’s no history of her ex committing that kind of crime.

Just watched this, and yeah, I don't really know how you could come away with any other conclusion. Additionally, has any forensic evidence ever been developed that established that any additional person came into contact with Cindy or the numerous pairs of stockings she was tied up with?

dreading (https://youtu.be/XW-nZ_XfyBc) on the Forbidden Site has a video on the Cindy James case. Having watched it, I’m on Team She Did It To Herself. The video revealed that Cindy had a history of making up stories. She once claimed to have a boyfriend who had cancer and killed himself, and she claimed that her ex killed and dismembered a couple on his boat, dumping the remains into the lake where they eventually washed ashore. Neither the boyfriend has been shown to exist, and there’s no history of her ex committing that kind of crime.

Wow, I never knew this. It speaks volumes, in my opinion.

Did anybody else see the two part Crime Beat episodes on her called Terror In The Night. Good overview-Neal Hall looks like an old hippie now.

There was one part where they played a supposed tape of a message left saying Cindy Dead Meat several times from the stalker, but it sounds just like her trying to disguise her voice-clearly a female voice.

If anyone is interested, someone uploaded “Who Killed Cindy James” by Ian Mulgrew onto Archive.org, I highly reccomend you read it
https://archive.org/details/whokilledcindyja0000ianm

Wow, I never knew this. It speaks volumes, in my opinion.

According to the books, Cindy’s claim that her husband dismembered two bodies while out on a boat trip several years earlier was something she revealed while under hypnosis to her psychiatrist. To my knowledge, it’s the only time she ever brought it up.

I’d have to go back and check for the details but from what I can remember, it was a boat trip Cindy and Roy took, accompanied by Cindy’s sister Melanie and her brother Roger. The boat docked at some location, Roy went somewhere to do something and Cindy eventually went looking for him. Melanie and Roger stayed behind on the boat. When Cindy eventually found him, Roy was supposedly disposing of the bodies. And it was a trauma that Cindy blocked out for nearly a decade before bringing it up under hypnosis.

I don’t know the ins and outs of hypnosis and whether delusional memories can come out or not. Just wanted to relay the backstory behind this claim.

Double post. Apologies.

Has all the earmarks that she did this to herself. Gorgeous woman, as gorgeous as anyone on UM, but nothing between the ears. I dated a woman a long time ago very capable of drawing attention to herself like that. I don't know if she could stage the events Cindy did, but she certainly would have tried. I think the Vancouver police were right in thinking she was doing this to herself. There has to be some sort of evidence that it was someone else, and nothing led to it.

I don’t know the ins and outs of hypnosis and whether delusional memories can come out or not. Just wanted to relay the backstory behind this claim.

https://scribe.usc.edu/hypnosis-and-memory/

One of the biggest scandals in the U.S. involving hypnosis was the ‘Satanic Panic’ in the 1980s-90s. Therapists used recovered memory therapy, which includes hypnosis and guided imagery, to uncover memories of physical and sexual abuse of their clients, often in the context of Satanic rituals and cults. After thorough investigation of the 12,000 documented accusations, none of them were substantiated (New York Times). These false memories were extremely harmful and traumatic for the individuals that had them.

Today, recovered therapy memory has been discredited by the scientific and academic community and has been known to implant false memories. People with good imaginations may misinterpret the memory of an imagined event with the memory of a real event, leading to false memories, and hypnosis is a good tool for creating them.

Knowing that came from hypnosis puts me even further into the "everything she said was a lie" camp.

Not one viable suspect has come forward or been named in all of the years since Cindy's death. No one with an actual motive to want to do this woman harm.

I will agree that the police did handle this badly. After all, if they believed that Cindy was staging all the attacks against herself, then, like other posters have said, there was an obvious solution: lie and tell Cindy that they’re no longer surveying her house. That way if she was staging all these attacks, they can catch her in the act and wrap everything up. Easy-Peasy.

I want the truth to come out so badly so it'll silence the smug you-know-whats who think Cindy did it to herself.

Yet they'd probably still find a way to blame her.


She did it to herself.