D.B. Cooper [Archive] - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Awsi Dooger

10-09-2005, 12:39 AM

Awsi Dooger -

First, let me just say that I enjoy reading your posts on the subject. I have always been fascinated by the Cooper story.

Now, a couple questions:

Why do you think Ralph Himmelsbach (sp?) doesn't entertain the possibility that McCoy was D.B. Cooper? (I'm assuming Himmelsbach is the FBI agent you've mentioned in previous posts who is quick to dismiss the theory).

Second, many sources are quick to point out that a plastic emergency exit sign from the plane's rear door, and some of the money was recovered in the woods/on the beach. However, I have read in two (not so reliable) places that a parachute was found in the late seventies. Do you know anything about this?

Thanks,
Justin

Justin, thanks for the compliment. I'm continually amazed by the lack of McCoy/Cooper info, or apparent interest. If there is legit information rejecting McCoy as Cooper I'm every bit as eager to look at that. Just haven't seen any.

First of all, I have not heard of a Cooper parachute being located. Where did you get that? McCoy ditched the parachute in some sort of cylindrical object beside the road after the second skyjacking. A teenager found it when his dad stopped the car to change a tire.

Yes, Ralph Himmelsbach. The guy who was the FBI lead investigator on the D.B. Cooper case out of Portland for more than 8 years, late 1971 until his mandatory retirement in 1980. The same Ralph Himmelsbach who never realized the search for Cooper had been conducted in the wrong area until the day of his retirement, when the pilot of the Cooper flight paid a courtesy visit and matter-of-factly pointed out where the plane had been when Cooper jumped. Completely different than the FBI had estimated. That pretty much told me all I needed to know regarding the competence and thoroughness of Ralph Himmelsbach. He has called Cooper "a rodent," "a bastard," "a dirty, rotten crook" and "nothing more than a "sleazy, rotten criminal who jeopardized the lives of more than 40 people for money." Does that sound like a rational, intelligent, even-keeled guy you want heading an investigation of this magnitude?

Himmelsbach has been insisting Richard McCoy was in Los Angeles on the day of the Cooper jump. Minor detail: McCoy's records from the Utah Air National Guard indicate otherwise. McCoy's records at BYU confirmed he finished his last class before Thanksgiving break at 9:30 AM on Tuesday, November 23, 1971, the day before the D.B. Cooper skyjacking. McCoy had scheduled to be on National Guard duty on Wednesday, but didn't show up. The duty roster indicated McCoy attended four drills the week before November 20 and five drills three weeks later on December 12-16. He wasn't assigned to attend particular drills, just so many within a given time period, and could work out the details for himself. Himmelsbach makes a fool of himself every time he insists McCoy can be placed in Los Angeles. As I pointed out in the thread I initiated, even McCoy and his relatives didn't claim he had been in Los Angeles. They had obviously rehearsed an alibi, that McCoy was in Provo helping with Thanksgiving dinner. The gas and phone records blow up that claim.

The FBI botched the Cooper case from the outset. Himmelsbach himself tried to follow the Cooper plane in a helicopter. If that wasn't brilliant enough, they sent up high speed fighter planes that were useless given the very slow speed that Cooper insisted on, barely fast enough to keep his plane aloft. The fighter planes had to come down and another plane sent up in their place. Not only did the FBI search in the wrong place, they limited it to 28 square miles. The widespread search is a myth.

On top of that, the fingerprint crew completely mangled collecting evidence from the D.B. Cooper plane. Cooper and McCoy each nervously flipped thru magazines. It should be simple to compare fingerprints and verify if Cooper was McCoy, or anyone else. McCoy was convicted partially via fingerprint evidence from the plane. Here is a paragraph from the book, quoting an FBI agent from Salt Lake City in 1972: "No matter how you cut it, from here on out that bunch in Reno will either have to hang together and stonewall it -- or come up with some pretty sophisticated explanations why they let the Reno City police dust that plane for prints and why those damn magazines never got back to the FBI Fingerprint Division."

Himmelsbach wrote a book in the mid '80s, essentially claiming that D.B. Cooper splattered and his body and the money drifted downstream to where the $5800 was eventually found in 1980. So it's not like he can retract the entire premise of his book and agree McCoy was Cooper. But then he supposedly listened with great interest to the claims of the wife of that Webber guy who "confessed" on his deathbed. Himmelsbach is a scattergun. One guy commits a virtually identical crime four months later with numerous similarities that defy coincidence, but he would rather pretend an out-of-nowhere goofball looking for posthumous press is a more likely suspect.

The leaks and claims have all come from individuals who have retired from the FBI, not working agents. Himmelsbach strikes me as a simpleton who would rather concoct his own bizarre theories. An agency like that would much rather have the public believe a mysterious figure nearly got away with a big score but died trying, than one person beat them twice and was only caught due to his own big mouth. Remember, the FBI "solved" the McCoy case only when one of McCoy's friends tipped them. He had parachuted down and gotten home with the money, $500,000.

The authors of the book encountered many roadblocks, demonstrating the FBI -- especially more than a decade ago -- wasn't thrilled with the McCoy as Cooper specifics being revealed. Especially involving the critical piece of evidence, the dark narrow tie and mother-of-pearl tie clasp. Many FBI agents from the investigation claimed they couldn't remember those items at all. That was major league BS, an attempted coverup. They had remarkable memory regarding other details. Those two items were used to weed out nutcases claiming to be Cooper. The bureau would ask if they left anything behind on the plane. No one had answered correctly. Duh. The guy who left them was killed in a shootout in 1974. The two-hour program on the Discovery Channel concluded with a picture of the tie and clasp. The book indicates the two items are being held at the evidence room at the FBI division office in Seattle.

When the authors of this book sought pictures of the tie and tie clasp, among other information on the Cooper and McCoy skyjackings, they had to sue the Department of Justice and the FBI. Both agencies refused to release documents. The authors eventually settled out of court. Among the items the agencies refused to release: the interviews with Richard McCoy's mother-in-law and sister-in-law in which they separately identified the tie and tie clasp as belonging to McCoy.

Let me emphasize one thing: I'm certain there is widespread dispute within the FBI whether McCoy was Cooper. To me, it's simple probability. If a near-identical 9/11 had transpired elsewhere four months later, I'd damn sure suspect Bin Laden and Al Queda first and foremost, regardless of trivial differences. In the agency I'm sure certain people want everything to fit perfectly, and of course it will not. Especially eyewitness identification of someone wearing makeup, wigs and other forms of disguise in each case.

The FBI was obviously investigating the connection VERY early. The book includes a print of an FBI internal teletype from April 18, 1972, just 11 days after theMcCoy skyjacking: "...NOTES POSSIBILITY MC COY DROVE FROM SALT LAKE CITY TO LAS VEGAS, FLEW TO PORTLAND TO COMMIT HIJACKING, RETURNED TO LAS VEGAS, AND DROVE BACK TO SALT LAKE CITY. INVESTIGATION INDICATES COLLECT CALL TO MC COY'S RESIDENCE NOVEMBER TWENTY-FIVE LAST AT TEN FORTY-ONE PM FROM LAS VEGAS AS WELL AS GAS PURCHASE IN LAS VEGAS SAME DATE USING BANK AMERICARD."

robbieasbury

10-10-2005, 12:22 AM

Awsi Dooger

10-12-2005, 01:26 AM

I'd like to have that dramatization that The Discovery Channel aired on DVD. I saw it when it aired, it brought a convincing case that Richard McCoy was D.B. Cooper. Has The Discovery Channel released it on DVD?

Apparently not. At least not yet. I just checked the Discovery Channel Store and they only have one D.B. Cooper DVD, but it's related to the search not Richard McCoy. It's definitely not the two-hour program you're referring to. Here is the link, below. You might check there from time to time, or send an email regarding availability of that program: http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?endecaSID=106E346A3CDF&langId=-1&storeId=10000&productId=56365&catalogId=10000

justins5256

10-14-2005, 02:03 PM

First of all, I have not heard of a Cooper parachute being located. Where did you get that? McCoy ditched the parachute in some sort of cylindrical object beside the road after the second skyjacking. A teenager found it when his dad stopped the car to change a tire.

The first time I heard of it was in a Reader's Digest anthology of Unsolved/Unexplaiend Mysteries (I'm at work right now, but can get the title for you later tonight). The book focused more on UFOs, Bigfoot, ghosts, and the like, but there was a chapter on missing persons, and Dan Cooper was featured. They didn't go into a lot of detail (the Cooper story was about two or three quick paragraphs) but they did mention that a parachute had been found in the woods after the plastic notice sign was found, but before the discovery of the money. The book quoted various articles from the New York Times as the source. I found every single article on microfiche at the public library, but was unable to find any mention of a parachute being discovered.

Another book I read some years ago also made a similar claim. The book implied that an orange colored fabric had been found by a group of hunters in the woods in the late seventies. The author of the book, Maxwell Gunther, also claimed that Dan Cooper had contacted him, and told him the whole story. The bulk of the book was based on this man's story.

I didn't feel either was a credible source, but if anyone knows differently regarding the doscovery of the parachute, I would like to know.

Awsi Dooger

10-14-2005, 07:31 PM

The first time I heard of it was in a Reader's Digest anthology of Unsolved/Unexplaiend Mysteries (I'm at work right now, but can get the title for you later tonight). The book focused more on UFOs, Bigfoot, ghosts, and the like, but there was a chapter on missing persons, and Dan Cooper was featured. They didn't go into a lot of detail (the Cooper story was about two or three quick paragraphs) but they did mention that a parachute had been found in the woods after the plastic notice sign was found, but before the discovery of the money. The book quoted various articles from the New York Times as the source. I found every single article on microfiche at the public library, but was unable to find any mention of a parachute being discovered.

Another book I read some years ago also made a similar claim. The book implied that an orange colored fabric had been found by a group of hunters in the woods in the late seventies. The author of the book, Maxwell Gunther, also claimed that Dan Cooper had contacted him, and told him the whole story. The bulk of the book was based on this man's story.

I didn't feel either was a credible source, but if anyone knows differently regarding the doscovery of the parachute, I would like to know.

Thanks, Justin. I've heard of Max Gunther and seen him quoted in regard to the D.B. Cooper case, but I've never read his book.

I scanned the Real McCoy book the other day and there was no mention of a Cooper parachute being found. It's funny, though, how little focus the authors of that book have on the first jump. The chapter is small and titled, "McCoy's Rehearsal: D.B. Cooper." That cracked me up the first time I read it.

Regarding your previous question, I wish knew why Himmelsbach rejected McCoy so routinely. Obviously he can't easily reconsider after writing a book 15 years after the fact, basically saying D.B. Cooper splattered. But what about early on? My guess is Himmelsbach was full steam into the Cooper investigation in April 1972 when the McCoy skyjacking occured. He was probably frustrated at the failures of the investigation and didn't want to give up. No doubt he'd already concluded Cooper was a corpse in a creek but they just couldn't find it. He had animosity toward Cooper as evidenced by the quotes I provided in the lengthy post a few days ago.

The FBI discovered the potential trip McCoy made to Las Vegas the day before the Cooper event, but I think they stalled at that point and couldn't verify much else. Some things didn't add up regarding the Cooper/McCoy similarities. For one thing, McCoy was 29 and the Cooper estimates were generally much higher, in the 40s as an average. But there was a disguise and makeup, plus you can look at the McCoy picture and see he looked hard in the face and with thinning hair he appeared much older than his actual age. I think Himmelsbach didn't have enough concrete evidence to accept the two men were one and decided to ignore McCoy and plow ahead. Stubbornness and old age made him stick to that faulty premise.

robbieasbury

10-15-2005, 08:05 AM

Awsi Dooger

10-15-2005, 04:37 PM

I remember watching a documentary on A&E with Bill Kurtis about The FBI Ten Most Wanted List. It said that Richard McCoy had the wrong color of eyes as Cooper, course if he were wearing sunglasses you couldn't see his eyes, unless he took them off.

That's an interesting point. Richard McCoy had light blue eyes. D.B. Cooper wore wraparound mirrored glasses during much of the trip. It's true the stewardess who dealt with Cooper most often, Tina Mucklow, thought Cooper had brown eyes. Other witnesses on the plane weren't sure about the color of Cooper's eyes. Passengers on the second hijacking were in disagreement about McCoy's eye color. Even the convict on that flight, William Coggin, the one who pointed out that McCoy had ducked into the lavatory and dramatically changed appearance, couldn't come up with McCoy's eye color despite obviously paying close attention. Coggin was the one passenger who McCoy did not insist be moved forward from his original seat.

Eyewitness recollection, of course, is notoriously unreliable. The general lighting on an airplane is low density. I'm not going to dwell on that discrepancy in lieu of big picture stuff that cannot be adequately explained unless McCoy was Cooper: McCoy -- a non-gambler -- driving from Provo to Las Vegas on the early morning of the Cooper skyjacking, using his credit card for gas purchase, and then apparently vaporizing for a day and a half, no record of any hotel room or other purchases, until his credit card is used for gas again, at the closest gas station to Las Vegas's McCarron International Airport. Then a collect phone call from the Tropicana Hotel, again the closest hotel to the airport, to McCoy's home in Provo.

The author of the book tried to interview Tina Mucklow, BTW. She basically renounced the life she knew prior to the Cooper flight and joined a convent as Sister Mary Alice. During a phone conversation she struggled to remember much, if anything, about the Cooper flight so the matter was not pursued.

CODIS

11-09-2005, 01:51 PM

Ireneparalegal

11-09-2005, 01:58 PM

justins5256

11-09-2005, 02:46 PM

regarding DB Cooper, if you watch PRISON BREAK on Fox, there is a prisoner on the show, who is alleged to be DB Cooper. The main character on the show believes this man to be him and even told him "Why he believes he is him" it is very interesting because the episode shows what supposedly happened during that infamous hijacking and how DB got away. Very interesting.

Yeah, being a D.B. Cooper and Prison Break fan, I picked up on that. I think it's funny how they say on the show that Cooper extorted 2 million dollars as opposed to the $200,000 he actually asked for. Truly a sign of the times. Hijacking an airliner and asking for ONLY $200,000 would hardly be worth the effort in this day and age.

Ireneparalegal

11-09-2005, 04:29 PM

Yeah, being a D.B. Cooper and Prison Break fan, I picked up on that. I think it's funny how they say on the show that Cooper extorted 2 million dollars as opposed to the $200,000 he actually asked for. Truly a sign of the times. Hijacking an airliner and asking for ONLY $200,000 would hardly be worth the effort in this day and age.
I know, funny how that amt of money is chump change, except maybe to a chump:lol:

The Gooch

11-12-2005, 05:36 PM

Awsi Dooger

11-16-2005, 12:30 AM

Duane Weber was D.B. Cooper. I remember about four or five years ago watching both CNN and Dateline NBC and they had in-depth reports on this story. Even the lead cop in the investigation Ralph Himmelsbach admitted that the evidence was strong. Google Duane Weber's name to find out more info.

There is ZERO credible evidence Duane Weber was D.B. Cooper. Sorry to be so blunt, but it fits. I've detailed Ralph Himmelsbach's flawed approach in this case in previous posts. He's the same guy who never bothered to ask the pilot of the Cooper plane if the FBI's estimated flight path was correct, and he claims Richard McCoy was in Los Angeles on the day of the Cooper flight when all evidence screams otherwise. McCoy didn't even claim to be in Los Angeles because he knew he had no evidence to support it. Himmelsbach is a hack and Duane Weber was a pathetic post-humous publicity seeker.

Awsi Dooger

11-16-2005, 12:55 AM

When the FBI executed the search warrant for Richard McCoy's home in Utah after questioning him, They found the entire ransom amount(minus a few bucks) in the closet. I find it hard to believe that Cooper & McCoy were the same individual being the fact the the money from the first jump was never recovered or turned up in circulation. Also, The reason I think that they have eliminated McCoy and Duane Weber as the real "Dan Cooper" is that they had DNA evidence of the skyjacker ( the cigarette butts from the Raliegh cigarettes he smoked while commiting the skyjack ) that is still sealed in evidence bags at the FBI evidence room. I beleive that the DNA did not match either of the two. I think that McCoy used "Cooper's executed plan as a blueprint, being that he had the experience as a jumper in the service. I think Duane Weber story is a bunch of BS. Just my 2c.

Please go back to post #6 in this thread for a link to a older thread in this forum regarding the specifics of the D.B. Cooper/Richard Floyd McCoy connection. I understand the skepticism because the McCoy as Cooper specifics are not available on the internet. Everyone wants to believe the romantic version of an elusive skyjacker with an unknown fate, not one guy who did it twice and got caught the second time.

I'll summarize the theory: McCoy did not come as well prepared for the first skyjacking. He lost the loot during the jump, probably immediately. That is why he had to do it again and the money was never found. It's still rotting in the Pacific Northwest.

The aspects McCoy "copied" had not been publicized prior to his jump, concealed by the FBI. It defies all propability logic to assert he was a copycat who just happened to use the same aviation forms to hand the notes, asked for the fuel truck in the same relationship to the plane, used identical terms and specifics in regard to how high and fast the plane should fly, etc.

Plus, if McCoy was not Cooper then what was he doing driving 400+ miles to Las Vegas on the early morning hours of the EXACT DAY of the DB Cooper jump? Everyone tends to dismiss that. Just a coincidence? I'd love to bet against that. There is no evidence McCoy was a gambler, or had any reason to be in Las Vegas that day, or had ever driven there before or subsequently. McCoy had his car serviced regularly and the daily mileage was almost identical for years, as detailed in the records of the garage he used. They always wrote down the exact mileage and the only time it differed significantly from average was the month of the Cooper jump, when McCoy somehow had an extra 860+ miles on his odomoter, coincidentally the same amount as a round trip from his home to Las Vegas. Yet McCoy denied he had taken that trip, even though credit card receipts place him buying gas en route and on the way back and there is a collect phone call record from the Tropicana Hotel to his home, one night after the Cooper jump. Yet no credit card activity for more than a day prior. He must have vaporized. Or taken a strange journey destined to become credited to another person.

I am not aware of any DNA evidence or exclusion and I tend to doubt it. The Discovery Channel program on the McCoy as Cooper connection is just a few years old, long after DNA was widely known and utilized. McCoy was killed in 1974 after a prision escape and lengthy fugitive status. I have never heard they unearthed his body for DNA purposes.

I completely agree regarding Duane Cooper. It is preposterous that claim ever received ten hours of study let alone ongoing publicity and acceptance.

CODIS

11-16-2005, 01:08 PM

Awsi Dooger

12-03-2005, 03:25 AM

Just thought I'd post this.

"In June of 2000, the family of a woman named Elsie Rodgers, who had told her family that she discovered the skull of Dan Cooper near the Columbia River while on vacation in the early 80s, came forward with the skull when they found it wrapped it a box with another bone after her death in May. The FBI used DNA evidence originally gathered from the plane (they refused to say what it was but a guess would be material on the discarded cigarettes) to compare with the bones but their scientists were unable to prove it was the skull of the skyjacker."

Just a thought.

Why could the stewardess NOT Identify McCoy as the hijacker? She saw him quite a bit.

Who knows

Interesting post. But I'll continue to be skeptical of any available DNA evidence. That Himmelsbach guy never mentions DNA as a reason to exclude Richard McCoy. Nor does anyone in the FBI, at least not publicly. You would think they would scream it from the rooftops if DNA ruled out McCoy. His body has been planted in a North Carolina cemetary since late 1974.

And how does a woman suddenly claim nearly 20 years later that she found the skull of DB Cooper? Did it have DB Cooper stenciled on the forehead?

And why wouldn't we have heard about a DNA comparison to Duane Weber? Seems to me that's the trump card point regarding DNA. His widow was gung ho to insist Weber was Cooper. You know damn well she'd give permission for his DNA to be compared. We would have heard the results one way or the other, and that has not happened.

Plus, as I mentioned in the previous post, that Discovery Channel episode dates from just a few years ago, long after DNA was in vogue. It specifically mentioned the FBI during the program and there was nothing in regard to DNA. The photo they showed at the very end of the program of the tie and mother of pearl tie clasp is not a readily available photo. It had to take FBI cooperation to include that photo. The authors of the book "DB Cooper, The Real McCoy" tried to get access to those items or any photo but were turned away. Why would the FBI suddenly cooperate in a two hour national TV program promoting the McCoy as Cooper aspect if they already knew DNA excluded McCoy?

There was an early '90s episode of a program called "FBI: The Untold Stories" that focused on the McCoy jump then mentioned the DB Cooper incident at the end. That series was enabled via cooperation of the FBI. The final sentence of that specific program on the skyjacking was something like, "there were so many similarities that many in the FBI concluded McCoy had experience, that he'd done it before." So if the FBI was embracing McCoy as a possibility if not probability in the early '90s, why don't they change that and let us know once DNA excludes him?

As far as the stewardess not identifying McCoy as Cooper, he was wearing makeup and heavy disguise on both flights. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, especially in stress situations. The book lists passenger descriptions from both flights that were all over the map. That is detailed in my earlier thread. And if anyone wants to use facial similarity as a criteria I'll gladly point them to the photos of McCoy alongside the DB Cooper sketch. It's damn scary how similar they are.

I fully realize this is an argument I can't win. People want to keep the legendary aspect alive. But as someone who works in stats and probability I can state this flat out: if Las Vegas oddsmakers were to put up odds on who DB Cooper really was, Richard Floyd McCoy would be the overwhelming odds-on favorite. Odds-on means greater likelihood than all other possibilities combined.

Awsi Dooger

01-30-2006, 04:07 AM

Here's a small article I saw recently, about the guy who found $5800 in DB Cooper cash in 1980. He eventually was able to keep almost $3000 after the FBI held it until 1986, and now is planning to sell the money to collectors. I'm not sure I wouldn't try eBay first for at least one or two of the bills. If you got some publicity that the auction existed it could really spike the views and therefore the bidding level.

http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=47fdb6cb-0aa0-4927-bbae-37d8d85cc84e

"A Mena resident who found the only money recovered from the famous 1971 D.B. Cooper plane hijacking and robbery is preparing to sell what is left of his bounty.

Brian Ingram, who is now 34 years old, came across a buried bundle of twenty-dollar bills in 1980 while camping with his family on the banks of the Columbia River in Washington state.

“We were going to make a campfire,” Ingram said during a telephone interview. “My dad was getting ready to put the wood down, and I was smoothing the sand. That’s when I found what felt like old newspaper.”

<snip>

"Ingram is selling the entirety of the bills with readable serial numbers, which includes only 15 “whole bills,” which are deteriorated around the edges, and 10 “half-bills,” which are further gone. He will keep the rest of the money, which amounts to scraps of paper resembling confetti.

Thrailkill would not provide an estimate of what the sale would net, saying only that he is “in the process of obtaining authentication and valuation documents,” and “looking at several auction houses and private investors.”

robbieasbury

03-28-2006, 02:45 PM

I saw on a documentary on A&E that John List was questioned in June 1989 if he was possibly D B Cooper because he killed his family in November of 1971 shortly before the skyjacking but he was too selfcentered of a person to risk his own life parachuting out of a 727.

Tony Ballesteros

03-28-2006, 04:15 PM

db cooper is an inmate at fox river in illinois

robbieasbury

03-29-2006, 07:24 PM

Here is a good account of the D. B. Cooper skyjacking http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/scams/DB_Cooper/2.html

Popeye Doyle

04-24-2006, 11:01 PM

Awsi Dooger

04-25-2006, 12:23 AM

Richard McCoy Jr is *NOT* D.B. Cooper...here's why:

1. Didn't drink or Smoke. D.B. did plenty of both
2. Does not have the olive complexion that D.B. had
3. Doesn't match the composite drawing--way off in fact McCoy has those
droopy eyes like (Shaggy?) from Scooby doo. These are an
unmistakeable feature that any artist can recreate. Just doesn't
match Cooper at all.

4. During this time there were other copy cat sky jackers besides McCoy...in
fact from something like 1965-72 there were more skyjackings than the
rest of history.

5. Only 4 months after the jacking Muckow and the other stewardess would
have recognized him, or even something about him and he just didn't
match

6. *IF* D.B. Cooper survived he had quite a night and probably had a few
broken bones to say the least. Not likely as clever as he was that
he'd be duplicating his feat 4 months later in the heat of one of the most
extensive manhunts ever.

7. There has been mention of disguises being the reason he didn't match the
cooper composite. Cooper aside from sunglasses wasn't wearing a
disguise. Remember that a disguise dosn't have to look legit it just has
to camouflage your features ..ie beard fake nose etc. In fact it can look
fake as **** it just has to keep anyone from getting a read on you.
Richard McCoy wouldn't have been wearing a D.B. Cooper disguise, he'd
have had long hippie hair, a beard and moustache, a fake nose etc.

Now you see why there isn't more attention paid to McCoy. It wasn't difficult
even with the limited knowledge of Cooper to determine that this was *NOT*
D.B. Cooper. Cooper may well have died that night even if his body is never found, but McCoy isn't Cooper.

Popeye

You're going to have to do a lot better than that.

1. What's to prevent a non-smoker from doing so in the most nerve wracking event of his life, a first time skyjacking? Cooper picked Raleigh cigarettes, an extremely rare brand, basically 1 or 2 percent of all sales if not less. Richard McCoy was from Raleigh, North Carolina so Raleigh would be a natural brand for a non-smoker to pluck off the shelves in a situation like that.

2. McCoy changed appearance dramatically, verified by the convict who saw him go into the bathroom. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. Estimations of the age and appearance of both men were all over the place.

3. To say the composite doesn't match McCoy is preposterous. The major features are smack identical, including the basic facial shape and Dumbo ears. In the book Real McCoy the authors stress you could convict based on similarity alone. As far as drooping eyes, the Cooper stewardess always said the composite wasn't quite right in many areas. If we had an actual photo of Cooper then I'd look and listen. Without one, you look for basic similarity and it's dead on in this case.

4. Give me a break. There is only one IDENTICAL skyjacking. Richard McCoy pulled it off four months later. That's what makes him the overwhelming odds-on favorite to have been Cooper. Let me repeat that, overwhelming odds-on, as in greater chance than all other possibilities combined. The FBI doesn't seem to get that, nor the public in general looking for the glamour tale. I work in statistics. The use of identical terminology, relationship of fuel truck to plane, same flight sheets including specific settings for altitude and speed, etc. are all trump cards toward the same person committing both crimes.

5. Again, eyewitness identification in times of a stressful event. You stated makeup wasn't used in the Cooper skyjacking but that's not necessarily accurate. Read the book and stop pathetic guesswork

6. Broken bones? He had a parachute. There were indications McCoy hurt a leg during the Cooper event then faked an injury in front of a BYU ski instructor, if I remember correctly, a few weeks later so he could receive treatment. He eluded the manhunt easily because the geniuses led by Ralph Himmelsbach didn't even bother asking for the exact route of the plane until more than a decade later. The theory is Cooper lost the vast majority of the money since he wasn't properly prepared in some respects. Four months later, McCoy/Cooper was prepared. He had to do the replay soon before those planes were refitted so the back stairs couldn't be opened during flight.

Now I'll go on the offensive. Richard McCoy's credit card receipts place him making a drive from Provo to Las Vegas on the early morning of the Cooper jump. The mileage of his regularly serviced car indicate a huge 800+ mile spike from typical during that period. Coincidence? You stress he didn't smoke. He also didn't gamble. So what's he doing heading to Las Vegas on the EXACT DAY of the Cooper jump. His license plate was written down on the gas receipt and matched. Both skyjackings happened during breaks at BYU, where McCoy was a student.

Then, his credit card is miraculously not used until late the next night. So he drives to Las Vegas and uses the card freely, then has no use to it for maybe 36 hours. At that point he buys gas at the closest station to the McCarran International Airport, and makes a collect call to his home in Provo from the Tropicana Hotel, the closest hotel to the airport and smack across the street from the gas station. No record of any hotel the night before. No meal purchases. Remarkable.

When McCoy is arrested for the second skyjacking, instead of innocently admitting he was in Las Vegas for that period of the Cooper jump, McCoy denies it and claims he was at home, helping with Thanksgiving. What's the reason to lie? When confronted with the counter evidence, the author of the book insists McCoy's face turned the color of potted ham.

At the end of this post I'll link to my lengthy thread regarding this case. It has tons of detail that is from the book but not available on the internet. Again, I understand the reluctance to accept McCoy as Cooper since the specifics aren't readibly available and the legend makes a better story. But here's a segment I don't think I included in my other thread, part of an interview with McCoy after his arrest, but when he was confronted with the Cooper aspect for the second time:

"...Because when I started gathering things up to leave, I noticed he was holding the FBI's composite drawing of D.B. Cooper.

"Aren't you forgetting something," Richard said.

"I don't know," I told him. "Am I?"

"That's up to you," he said. "You wanted to talk bad enough yesterday about -- you know, that other thing."

I tried my damndest to keep a straight face and not say, "What other thing,?" but I couldn't.

"This thing," he said, slowly and carefully, as if he were just entering a dark room and having trouble finding the light switch, "this guy here," thumbing Cooper's wanted poster with his thumb and second finger.

...With (Judge) Ritter's stand on a person's constutional rights, anything I asked about Cooper, I knew, could get me fired. But Richard hadn't said "no." In fact, it was he who seemed to be pushing the subject. "Do you, or don't you, Mr. Rhodes," with a take it or leave it expression on his face, "want to talk about this other thing or not?"

"What other thing," I say, trying to cover my ass with Ritter later on. "Be more specific."

"THIS other thing," he said, flapping the wanted poster of Cooper back and forth as if it were a wet photograph.

"Are you absolutely sure you know what you've got there, " I asked him.

"Yes," he answered. "I know what it is. But I'm beginning to wonder if you do."

I said, "You tell me, then. What is it?"

"Let's just forget it," Richard said, standing and sailing the poster of Cooper across the table and raising his eyebrows like I'd lost my mind. "You know what I think," he said, just above a whisper, "I think you're having a harder time, for some reason, than I am."

"The trouble I'm having," I said, and I could hear myself catch my breath, "is it's late." Then I tell him, "Maybe we ought to give it up for today. We'll get into this thing much deeper later on, okay?"

Richard nodded, and I remember thinking that he may have been every bit as anxious to clear up this Cooper thing as Thiesen and Calame.

OK, that's the end of the quoted material from the book. Maddeningly, the matter was never pursued again. But from that segment it screams knowledge and involvement, at least from my reading.

Here's the link to my lengthy thread on the matter. Tons more info and similarities. I never even mentioned in this post that Cooper's tie and mother of pearl tie clasp were identified by two of McCoy's relatives as belonging to him, before they were even told the items were left by Cooper during the first skyjacking: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=67888&highlight=Cooper

Popeye Doyle

04-26-2006, 10:49 AM

Awsi Dooger

04-26-2006, 03:04 PM

Your premise is based soley on speculation and the very remote possiblity that Cooper survived that jump in pitch darkness and during a heavy rainstorm in the mountains having never specified a specific route.

The problem for you is that if Cooper didn't survive your speculation (and the book's) fall apart. That book wouldn't have sold solely on the story of Richard McCoy Jr. w/o a connection to D.B.

Are you forgetting that DB was not even the first to have tried this?

Popeye

Very remote possbility of surviving, when you have a parachute? McCoy served two stints in Vietnam as a Green Beret. He piloted a combat helicopter over hostile territory on more than 25 missions. When another chopper went down on one occasion, McCoy made a daring rescue among enemy ground fire and erupting fuel tanks, receiving the Army Commendation Medal for Heroism. He also won the Purple Heart after being wounded. During the time of the Cooper jump, McCoy was in the National Guard and was a trained jumper. So it was hardly like a businessman doing something he had no background in, as the media sometimes ignorantly portrays.

Speculation? If we had no record of any oddities regarding Richard McCoy on the day of the Cooper jump, then it would be mostly speculation and similarity. I notice none of the naysayers even attempt to explain the trip to Las Vegas. Nor the credit card receipts and the absence of same during the period of the Cooper jump and for a day later. The obvious theory from my standpoint is it took McCoy that long to make it back to Las Vegas, hitchhiking or a plane from somewhere else or whatever. Then he might have laundered the little bit of money that survived the jump in the casino, so he wouldn't have the specific serial numbers, before calling home.

After the Cooper event, McCoy suddenly had enough money to fly his entire family round trip to North Carolina. Where did that come from if not the Cooper jump? Again, the theory is he lost all but maybe 8-10 thousand during the initial jump, plenty for a spending spree but not the windfall life changing amount he risked a skyjacking for.

Big hint: if Cooper didn't survive, the second skyjacking wouldn't have happened. I'm not aware or concerned about previous attempts. These two stand alone in history because one guy did both but the public is determined to ignore and deny.

Awsi Dooger

04-26-2006, 03:29 PM

Here's the composite of DB Cooper, side by side to the actual photo of Richard Floyd McCoy, taken after his arrest on the second skyjacking, four months following the Cooper event.

http://img146.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc205&image=79048_Richard_McCoy:DB_Cooper.jpg

Popeye Doyle

04-26-2006, 07:32 PM

Very remote possbility of surviving, when you have a parachute? McCoy served two stints in Vietnam as a Green Beret.

In the military you parachute out of an airplane with a cord attached to a
line. You do not free fall at night w/o an altimiter and pull your own rip chord.
This is next to impossible when it's in the middle of a thunderstorm with lightening. This also says nothing of surviving on the ground (who knows where) in freezing temperatures with a leisure suit on. He could have been
30-100 miles from the nearest road for any sort of rendez-vous in some of the most inhospitable territory in the US. Most important, he didn't have the
plane fly any PARTICULAR route. He couldn't have been sure where he was,
if he even survived the jump.

Speculation? If we had no record of any oddities regarding Richard McCoy on the day of the Cooper jump, then it would be mostly speculation and similarity. I notice none of the naysayers even attempt to explain the trip to Las Vegas. Nor the credit card receipts and the absence of same during the period of the Cooper jump and for a day later. The obvious theory from my standpoint is it took McCoy that long to make it back to Las Vegas, hitchhiking or a plane from somewhere else or whatever. Then he might have laundered the little bit of money that survived the jump in the casino, so he wouldn't have the specific serial numbers, before calling home.

None of the money has ever showed up in circulation. Even in the 70's VEGAS would have been the LAST place he would ever have wanted to try to launder that money. Those bill serials would have shown up lickity split! There will always be oddities they're a part of life. I'll never forget the naysayers trying to acquit Simpson on oddities. Means VERY
little.

Big hint: if Cooper didn't survive, the second skyjacking wouldn't have happened. I'm not aware or concerned about previous attempts. These two stand alone in history because one guy did both but the public is determined to ignore and deny.

If you can't tie McCoy to Cooper you haven't got a book. Simple as that.
McCoy is *NOT* cooper. There are more similiarities between Cooper and
Weber, and he probably didn't do it.

Popeye Doyle

Awsi Dooger

04-26-2006, 08:23 PM

In the military you parachute out of an airplane with a cord attached to a
line. You do not free fall at night w/o an altimiter and pull your own rip chord.
This is next to impossible when it's in the middle of a thunderstorm with lightening. This also says nothing of surviving on the ground (who knows where) in freezing temperatures with a leisure suit on. He could have been
30-100 miles from the nearest road for any sort of rendez-vous in some of the most inhospitable territory in the US. Most important, he didn't have the
plane fly any PARTICULAR route. He couldn't have been sure where he was,
if he even survived the jump.

None of the money has ever showed up in circulation. Even in the 70's VEGAS would have been the LAST place he would ever have wanted to try to launder that money. Those bill serials would have shown up lickity split! There will always be oddities they're a part of life. I'll never forget the naysayers trying to acquit Simpson on oddities. Means VERY
little.

If you can't tie McCoy to Cooper you haven't got a book. Simple as that.
McCoy is *NOT* cooper. There are more similiarities between Cooper and
Weber, and he probably didn't do it.

Popeye Doyle

You blew credibility with the final comment. To assert Duane Weber as a more likely DB Cooper than Richard McCoy is world class nonsense, a parody of an opinion. Weber was a posthumous publicity seeker, trying to become something more in death than he ever was while alive. The pathetic aspect is it worked. There is absolute zilch connecting him to DB Cooper.

Uh, there is a book. You're obviously too petrified to read it. There are ties galore, including the actual TIE and mother of pearl tie clasp identified immediately by McCoy's relatives as belonging to him.

And you really want to assert the same day of the Las Vegas trip as an oddity? Where the hell does an OJ Simpson reference come in? So, of all the thousands of days preceeding the skyjacking he was convicted of, the ONLY one Richard McCoy drives to Las Vegas just happens to be the very early morning of the Cooper jump. You obviously know very little about probability to dismiss it. You didn't dare comment on the lack of credit card use for a day and a half because you can't. Three weeks earlier, McCoy was in Las Vegas at the Westward Ho motel on the Strip, the same day of the week as the eventual Cooper jump. The speculation is he did a dry run of his intended skyjacking. He used his credit card freely during that trip, including purchasing the hotel room. But three weeks later he spends 36+ hours in Las Vegas without using the credit card, even for purchasing a hotel room. Sure.

I do admit it's strange none of the money showed up in circulation. It's possible McCoy lost all of the money, that all of it fell during the jump. I'm I'm not concerned about that when there are so many aspects that can't be competently dismissed, like all the details I posted in the original thread on the matter in 2003. Why don't you go to that thread and try dismissing things?

You also didn't dare comment on my next post, the comparison shopping pictures. Kind of blew your droopy eyes remark out of the water, didn't it? To deny the incredible similarity is comical. Same facial structures. Protruding ears. High forehead. Hair parted in the same place and basically identical. The odds of two completely different people having so many shared features is preposterous. Unless all skyjackers come out of the same cookie cutter.

The difficult conditions at the time of the Cooper jump is why he lost the money. He came better prepared the second time. But it's hardly impossible to survive. The leisure suit aspect is another myth. No one knows what Cooper was wearing at the time of the jump, or underneath the suit.

Let me say I appreciate the occasional naysayer to this topic. No one ever takes the side I do so I end up posting more words on this topic than all others combined. But please get some basic facts straight when trying to denounce McCoy as Cooper. You capitalized PARTICULAR for emphasis, as in Cooper didn't ask the pilot for a specific route. Garbage. He had Tina Mucklow take up a typed federal aviation flight plan to the cockpit, instructing Captain Scott to fly southeast, following flight path Vector 23 south along Interstate 5, in the direction of Reno. He instructed Scott to maintain an altitude of 10,000 feet and continue at 170 knots.

Four months later, McCoy used identical specifics and aviation phrases. He also asked the flight attendants to return the typed flight plans, as Cooper did. Amazingly, those were the identical type flight plans Richard McCoy used four months later. Remarkable coincidence, don't you think? The info had not been released to the public but somehow McCoy knew to use the exact paperwork. His wife Karen even admitted typing them up before the jump.

Popeye Doyle

04-26-2006, 11:59 PM

You also didn't dare comment on my next post, the comparison shopping pictures. Kind of blew your droopy eyes remark out of the water, didn't it? To deny the incredible similarity is comical. Same facial structures. Protruding ears. High forehead. Hair parted in the same place and basically identical. The odds of two completely different people having so many shared features is preposterous. Unless all skyjackers come out of the same cookie cutter.

There are two composites of Cooper. I noticed you (and the book) use
the less often used one that looks more like McCoy. The other one looks
nothing like McCoy.

His wife Karen even admitted typing them up before the jump.

What about the supposed first jump? You know...the one he didn't make?

PD

Awsi Dooger

04-27-2006, 12:22 AM

There are two composites of Cooper. I noticed you (and the book) use
the less often used one that looks more like McCoy. The other one looks
nothing like McCoy.

What about the supposed first jump? You know...the one he didn't make?

PD

The book includes all the composites. Including the one with the wraparound sunglasses. Again, I don't place great emphasis on composites compared to details. Other than you have to concede there is a significant similarity. Just try to dismiss your opinion of this case. And let's say you were shown that composite and the McCoy photo, but no one told you who they were or why it was significant. I absolutely guarantee a majority of people would say they were the same person.

It's hardly a book that doesn't examine the potential discrepancies. They mention the eye color difference, that McCoy's eyes were brown while some people on the Cooper flight said he had blue eyes. Others were not sure, of eye color or other aspects. The descriptions were all over the place. I attribute that to McCoy's hard looking nature and thinning hair, which made him appear much older than his actual age of 29. Plus at average height and build, he wasn't someone who stood out so passengers didn't pay much attention.

Karen McCoy not only didn't admit to the first skyjacking, she sued the authors of the book and won a small settlement. Of course, that's just one judge making a decision so it means nothing to me. If you want to use Karen McCoy as a measure for honesty, I'll point out she stole tens of thousands from McCoy after he escaped from jail and pulled off a bank robbery with another escapee. The loot was in the trunk of the car and she took it, when McCoy and the friend were going back to hiding, I think in Alabama.

That's not it. Karen McCoy was having a relationship with someone from law enforcement while her busband was on the run. She was apparently the one who tipped him off regarding McCoy's location, leading to the shooting death of her husband. So anything she says or doesn't say regarding the Cooper skyjacking needs to be handicapped with those aspects in mind.

Popeye Doyle

04-27-2006, 10:13 PM

Awsi Dooger

04-28-2006, 04:56 AM

So what is YOUR theory on how DB:

1. Timed the chute opening to a tee in the middle of the night.

2. Landed Safely in one of the most rugged forrests in North America.

3. Got out of the Wilderness in the middle of the night when
he could not have known (regardless of the flight plan)
exactly where he was, and neither could anyone else(rendez-vous).

????

Popeye Doyle

I don't know why you focus so much on the jump aspects. McCoy had training in that area. We have no idea if he ever jumped at night previously. Even if he did not, no doubt he studied and knew the differences, things to focus on. Both skyjackings were at night so he obviously was comfortable with it.

In the second skyjacking McCoy admitted he had to avoid the highway and its bright lights during the descent. Very possible he was able to use lighting to manuever during the first jump. Remember, it was a stormy night and lightning is a splendid source of natural lighting. I found that out during Katrina last summer in Miami. Our power was out but the lightning briefly eluminated the entire house. He wouldn't have been threatened by search parties at that point since the first search was much more disorganized and the search planes weren't even in the right place, or knew specifically when Cooper jumped. It was a cold night but no one saw Cooper prepare for the jump. In the second skyjacking, the pilot looked under the door and saw McCoy change into specialized outfitting. Cooper (aka McCoy) likely did the same thing, albeit not as well prepared to tote the loot.

The flight plan took the plane along a major interstate so there could have been adequate lighting below. I have no idea where he landed or how close to a city. The FBI was clueless for nine years regarding the route of the plane and where it was when Cooper jumped, so anything they say on the matter can be discarded. I severely doubt there was a rendezvous, especially since he made the collect call back home a night later. Taking a full day to be heard from again in Las Vegas doesn't seem unreasonable. If it had been 6 or 8 hours, then I'd be much more skeptical. He knew the approximate area of the jump and his car was in Las Vegas, so I would guarantee some planning had been made regarding a return.

Admittedly, the weird aspect is why he choose to jump smack outside his home town during the second skyjacking. Cockiness, or more problems than he bargained for during the first event might have been the reasoning. That's if you accept McCoy as the dual perpetrator, of course.

I haven't looked at the book in a while. Perhaps the authors focused on the jump aspects more than I remember. I'll sample it tomorrow and see if they theorized anything beyond what I've opined.

Popeye Doyle

04-28-2006, 12:51 PM

The problem with McCoy is that his own mouth is what put the noose around his neck,(or the galvanized parallels in front of his face...if you will). Seems to be a little bit of a braggart who after being convicted of the McCoy skyjacking would have relished in claiming responsibility for the more famous (even at that time) Cooper skyjacking.

Rather, he seems to play a sheepish game of indifference to the notion that he is Cooper. This accomplishes 4 things for McCoy.

1. He doesn't admit to a crime that he either didn't commit, or further
incriminate himself while enjoying the notoriety.

2. This type of ambiguity in some cases and to *SOME* people makes a
stronger statement than an outright confression or boasting.

3. Relieves him the burden of having to PROVE that he is the perp in the
Cooper skyjacking, and hence #4.

4. Saves him the embarassment of admission/bragging/claiming responsibility
if the REAL Cooper is ever caught.

Popye Doyle

Awsi Dooger

04-28-2006, 06:06 PM

McCoy didn't want to admit to the Cooper skyjacking. He was hardly resigned to a long sentence and serving it without complaint. In fact, in his pre-sentencing letter to Judge Ritter he asked for consideration as a good citizen, the age of his young children, and wrote, "forty five years is not realistic. I wouldn't even attempt it." So he hinted at escape attempt right there. It makes perfect sense he didn't willingly admit to the Cooper event, and the additional trial and prison time it would have guaranteed. Although based on that section of the book I quoted a few days ago I believe he might have admitted/claimed involvement if pressed further, and perhaps given assurance of no additional charges or time.

Here's a couple of things from the book, regarding the night of the Cooper jump and whether McCoy sought family assistance:

"Cooper had instructed the Northwest Orient pilot to follow airway Vector 23, along I-5 out of Seattle, just as Richard McCoy used I-15 as a landmark. At about 8:12, Cooper jumped. "That area isn't as rough or forestlike," Calame explained, "as some people think, so he should have been just fine. He walks or hooks a ride into Portland, stays all night, and the next day catches a plane, or bus or whatever, back to Vegas." By that time, he'd removed his dark makeup, dispatched his wig, and changed clothes."

Calame is one of the co-authors. Admittedly, that's probably a tame assessment of the problems Cooper would have faced. But we have no idea where landfall was made and the type of terrain.

Here's something from Denise Burns, McCoy's sister-in-law, regarding previous attempts, quoted after the second skyjacking. "Richard had a plan once where he wanted me to call the airlines and -- this was several months ago -- tell them there was a package of instructions in a locker and a bomb on one of their planes." Another time, she said, Richard wanted her to pick him up out in the Nevada desert. "I said, 'No sir, Richard. I'm not going to set out there in the middle of no place by myself and then have the police come pick me up.' "This was way before the one they caught him on."

I had forgotten that quote. Certainly interesting, given the Nevada aspect. No clue whether it could have been the night after the Cooper jump, when McCoy was struggling to return to Las Vegas, or before the event itself when McCoy was scheming the entire plan.

For reference purposes, McCoy's collect call back to his home from Las Vegas came at 10:41 PM on November 25, the night after the Cooper event. So that was 26 and a half hours after Cooper jumped.

Popeye Doyle

04-28-2006, 10:18 PM

Awsi Dooger

04-29-2006, 12:13 AM

He did deny it. I've mentioned that repeatedly. He claimed he was helping with Thanksgiving dinner. Only when presented with the credit card receipts indicating the trip to Las Vegas did he begin to change attitude and hint toward wanting to say something. I detailed that many posts ago.

Obviously it probably took a plane flight back to Las Vegas. I quoted Calame regarding that in the previous post. Big hint: that flight is a few hours. McCoy wasn't heard from until past 10 PM. So reasonable to assume it was shortly after he arrived. He had all night and until early PM the next evening to make it to a city and catch a flight. The book mentions the FBI tried to check plane records but in those days they were not retained that long. Plus you could pay by cash, use any name you wanted. McCoy used James Johnson in the second skyjacking, after Dan Cooper during the first.

Look, you're obviously inflexible so anything I post won't have an impact. Frankly, this has become tiresome. I post specifics and you reply, doesn't mean anything. That's the ongoing method of the naysayers, always with the same flimsy ammo, i.e. a blinders-on insistence to believe the legend regardless of annoying facts.

I work in a statistical office and no one there who has read the book has any doubt at all. When you're trained in that field and the evidence pours in from every angle, not hard to grasp the bottom line reality. There isn't one major area where evidence is missing: appearance, strange behavior on the specific day, overwhelming similarities to the McCoy event four months later, in language and execution. No valid abili placing McCoy elsewhere. Plus the tie and tie clasp identified by relatives. The FBI withheld info regarding those items as a method to eliminate nutcases who claimed to be Cooper. As far as I know, only McCoy's two relatives identified them, and immediately as belonging to McCoy without knowing where they had been found.

You tried to denounce the similarity in apppearance. I shot that down. You tried to claim McCoy/Cooper didn't ask for a PARTICULAR route. I blew that away. You make ridiculous claims that he "probably had a few broken bones" if he survived the jump. That right there is perfect evidence of what I'm talking about, zero clue regarding probability. With a functioning parachute there is no such thing as "probably having broken bones," as in more than 50% chance. The correct betting line would literally be less than 5%, even in those conditions. You said it was "next to impossible" to free fall at night and pull your own rip chord without an altimeter. I mentioned that to someone at work yesterday who has made skydives, knows the business, and he nearly hit the ground in a seizure of laughter.

That plane was simple to jump from because of the positioning of the engines in relation to the stairwell. That's why that aspect of the plane was designed in the first place, to accomodate jumping. It wasn't altered for commercial use to prevent the stairs from being lowered during flight until after McCoy's two skyjackings.

Read the book. It doesn't bite.

Popeye Doyle

04-29-2006, 01:10 AM

Popeye Doyle

05-01-2006, 04:46 PM

Here is a picture of the house where Richard McCoy Jr was Shot in Virginia Beach. It wasn't easy to snap this shot as Great Neck is sort of a major secondary road at that location where traffic is moving 40-45mph. Most of the subdivisions that branch off it are where you'd have more residential traffic speed. It was difficult to stop and I had to go around the block several times and time it so that I could catch traffic backed up at the light at Wolfsnare and snap the shot.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8017/dscn0019f9ci.jpg

http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/6604/dscn0026f8jc.jpg

http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/2113/dscn0025f9id.jpg

Awsi Dooger

05-01-2006, 09:01 PM

Great job with the photos, Popeye! Wow, I didn't expect them so soon.

For reference purposes, Popeye Doyle sent me a PM regarding the address of the house where McCoy was shot and killed in November 1974, since Popeye lives in the Virginia Beach area. I gave him the address, 733 North Great Neck Road, based on info from the book.

For a change something looks almost identical to my mental images. The book mentioned brick house in a good neighborhood.

I wonder who lives there now, and if they know the history? Most likely.

McCoy and a fellow escapee rented that home. Acccording to the book, they were careful when approaching every night, turning off the lights of the car and one of them walking to the home to make sure nothing was amiss. McCoy apparently opened the door on that night and was confronted FBI agents in the darkness and told to freeze, but he reached for a gun, fired at the FBI, and was killed by Nick O'Hara of the FBI.

Awsi Dooger

05-01-2006, 09:55 PM

I may read the book if my local library has it, I'm certainly not going to pay $30+ for it.

I still wonder if the evidence is that convincing why the FBI who has is still
embarrassed w/o a solution hasn't come to the same conclusion?

If DB did land that close to a highway, why wasn't the rest of the money found?

Popeye

P.S. I'm not trying to aggrevate you, I'm just sort of pushing a little like a defense atty would do to make the prosecution meet the burden :)

Good luck finding the book. I bought it three years ago directly from the University of Utah Press by calling (801) 272-2211. They charged $18 including shipping. I have no idea if it's still available from that number. The other major online sources charge much higher and I agree there is no way I'd shell it out.

I have no idea where McCoy landed, in relation to a highway. Only that his flight plan he gave to the pilot was along a major highway. The book implies he probably lost the money almost immediately after jumping. So the bag could have plunged from 10,000 feet.

Can you imagine the feeling at that point? All the planning and stress and risk and you forfeit the money smack out of the plane? :lol: :lol:

If it happened that way you wonder if he's trying to watch the bag and gauge where it's going as it plummets, and how long he looked for it on the ground before giving up and realizing escape was the top priority?

It appears there are splits in the FBI on this issue. The early '90s program "FBI: The Untold Stories" included an episode on the possible connection between Cooper and McCoy. That was a program based on inside scoop from the bureau, with its cooperation, so it wouldn't have been mentioned or produced if the theory wasn't given considerable weight. Likewise the book and the two-hour Discovery Channel program.

However, obviously plenty from the bureau don't agree, like Ralph Himmelsbach. In the book it also mentions the tie and mother of pearl tie clasp are apparently conveniently forgotten, perhaps a coverup, by many members of the FBI. The authors asked about them, seeking photos and more information, but one person after another from the original investigation either wouldn't comment or claimed they didn't remember the items. Obviously nonsense, since the two-hour program concluded with a photo. The book mentions the items were finally traced to a specific storage area, where they apparently remain.

For so many people with the FBI to deny knowledge tells me they have been instructed to do so. Look at the post at the end of the Richard McCoy thread, the quotation from another website. I agree with that basic premise: the FBI would rather have a legend, including probable death and failure, be the enduring memory and theory than one inconsequential guy who got away with it once then took advantage of the situation again mere months later for a much greater sum, and darn near pulled it off and made them look stupid again, other than a big mouth and skyjacking into basically his own back yard.

I'm not exactly impressed with the FBI on this issue, regarding understanding of probability. Just look at the composite in relation to the actual photo of McCoy. If two entirely different people pulled this off, there should be almost ZERO chance of an extreme similarity. We're talking two people. It's not like a UM segment where one guy is described as the suspect then you've got the entire city to search for someone who looks like that, thousands of possibles.

Let's say you had a composite of myself and a picture of you. Or a composite of Kane and a picture of Dark Dante. Obviously I'm merely sampling from this board, without knowing what they look like. The point is, no matter how questionable the composite is, or angle of the photo, whatever, the odds of two different people from a sample of two sharing so many similarities is surreal. Let someone draw a picture of the house next to the one McCoy was killed in. Or a house down the street. If the drawing is done accurately without attempt to resemble a different specific house, I'll wager every time that no one looking at the photo/picture will claim high percentage similarity to the point they think the two houses are one in the same.

Popeye Doyle

05-02-2006, 11:39 AM

Awsi Dooger

05-02-2006, 05:56 PM

How do we know for sure that Calame and his partner didn't put a little fiction into this book? Seems to me that if the FBI had that much they might have been able to break Cooper down and have the case solved instead of egg on their face. I don't believe that the FBI wants a mystery I believe they're more interested in their own track record.

WE MAY NEVER know the true evidence and until we do, we can't be sure about their conclusion (or lack thereof) in this case.

What about a connection between McCoy and DB and they are *not* one and the same? Would if they knew each other and planned together as an explanation of the similiarities? Perhaps McCoy didn't want to discuss the DB jacking because it would open him up to uncovering an accomplice? It's possible.

I still have a problem with the olive skin and Burbon drinking and chain smoking. Since McCoy was not a drinker or smoker it would be difficult to
chain smoke w/o coughing. Even some Hollywood actors who are non-smokers who have to smoke for a role often look out of place even after practicing for countless hours.

WRT the Burbon, to anyone who doesn't drink, alchohol does not have a calming effect. It has a disorienting effect, and it is unlikely that a non drinker/smoker would coose either in a stressful event. Those who observed Cooper if I remember correctly described him as a CHAIN smoker. Big difference between a natural chain smoker and someone who just picks up a cigarette. Anyone could tell the difference.

Popeye

Obviously the book slanted in the direction they are claiming. The aspects you mentioned -- chain smoking, drinking, olive skin, plus the possible discrepancy in eye color -- are all covered but probably warranted more mention. Both Cooper and McCoy were said to have stains on their hands which the authors said was from applying makeup. I think I read somewhere they found eight cigarette butts. So that's over many, many hours including a stop to land and refuel and come up with the money and parachutes, etc. The eyewitness testimony was all over the map in regard to age and appearance so I'm not confident the passengers and crew got it right in regard to how much he drank or smoke.

I wonder if the lawsuit Karen McCoy won from the authors and publisher is contributing to the lack of a another book(s) from a different source, or mention on the major cable talk programs? I've contacted those shows but never hear back from them.

I'm not buying two people who knew each other. Less variables is almost always the most likely truth. I've mentioned that many times on this board when analyzing cases. Here, it means one perpetrator.

I can't handicap the FBI, the methods or mindset. Remember, they barged into Richard Jewel's apartment and were storming out of there with samples of baking flour. It seemed like a preposterous linkage to me, based on the circumstances. Then they couldn't find the actual bomber, Eric Rudolph, when he was smack in the mountains they had identified for years.

In this case, how do they claim to place McCoy in Los Angeles on the day of the Cooper jump, and therefore excluded as a suspect, when their own teletype memo, printed in the book and dated April 18, 1972, indicates the trip to Las Vegas?

Here it is:

"355 PM URGENT 4-18-72
TO DIRECTOR, FBI

FROM LAS VEGAS

NORJAK

RE RICHARD FLOYD MCCOY, JR., AKA DAN COOPER, D.B. COOPER, D. COOPER. J. JOHNSON -- SUSPECT

SALT LAKE CITY TELECALL APRIL SEVENTEEN LAST NOTES POSSIBILITY MC COY DROVE FROM SALT LAKE CITY TO LAS VEGAS, FLEW TO PORTLAND TO COMMIT HIJACKING, RETURNED TO LAS VEGAS AND DROVE BACK TO SALT LAKE CITY. INVESTIGATION INDICATED COLLECT CALL TO MC COY'S RESIDENCE NOVEMBER 25 LAST AT TEN FORTY - ONE PM FROM LAS VEGAS AS WELL AS GAS PURCHASE IN LAS VEGAS SAME DATE USING BANK AMERICARD.

RECORDS, WESTWARD HO MOTEL, LAS VEGAS, CHECKED FOR ENTIRE MONTH OF NOVEMBER, SEVENTY-ONE AND NO REGISTRATION LOCATED FOR MC COY UNDER KNOWN NAMES AND ALIASES OTHER THAN RESERVATION ON NOVEMBER TWO, PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED. ALL AIRLINE MANIFESTS THAT HAVE FLIGHTS TO PORTLAND FROM LAS VEGAS DESTROYED AFTER NINETY DAYS."

So, smack in that teletype memo they list McCoy as aka Dan Cooper.

There are about 20 names at top right indicating recipients of the memo. It's listed "END PAGE ONE" and incredibly frustrating the subsequent pages weren't included, along with the teletype from the previous day.

Popeye Doyle

05-02-2006, 07:38 PM

So, smack in that teletype memo they list McCoy as aka Dan Cooper.

There are about 20 names at top right indicating recipients of the memo. It's listed "END PAGE ONE" and incredibly frustrating the subsequent pages weren't included, along with the teletype from the previous day.

It works both ways. Remember as you mentioned there were probably FBI memos titled/naming Jewel as the olympics bomber. What we don't know is what info was excluded in the book like the "subsequent pages" that might have corrected the early judgement.

I still believe that the FBI would love to have wrapped this up, and I'd really
like to know what pertinent info the FBI has that was NOT included in the
book. There has to be something, something big that basically roots out
RF McCoy as the Cooper jacker.

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-02-2006, 09:06 PM

I still believe that the FBI would love to have wrapped this up, and I'd really like to know what pertinent info the FBI has that was NOT included in thebook. There has to be something, something big that basically roots out RF McCoy as the Cooper jacker.

Popeye

That looks like a contradiction. If the FBI has something big that excludes McCoy, and they also would love to have this wrapped up, then what is preventing them from letting us know?

They have squat, just guesswork. Without specific linkage like fingerprints they spin wheels and throw darts and don't understand how to properly weight each criteria. This happened in '71 and early '72. The two TV shows were from made in '91 and a few years ago. Both were produced with cooperation from FBI agents. There is a split within the agency.

I'm going to contact the big cable talk shows again about doing this story. They continually ignore me, even when it's near the anniversary of Cooper's jump. I'm convinced there must be a reason for lack of coverage, perhaps that successful lawsuit.

Dislimb

05-02-2006, 09:59 PM

This is interesting. At least I think so! :crazy:

Awsi Dooger

05-02-2006, 11:06 PM

This is interesting. At least I think so! :crazy:

Hey, you ended the string, Dislimb!

Popeye and I had combined for 20+ consecutive posts in this thread.

I was hoping someone else would barge in. :lol:

Dislimb

05-03-2006, 02:56 AM

Hey no problem... I find this to be a highly interesting case and an entertaining UM segment too. I agree with you that McCoy was Cooper, but enjoy reading all of the skeptics theories as well. That's what makes the world go 'round!

Popeye Doyle

05-03-2006, 10:04 AM

That looks like a contradiction. If the FBI has something big that excludes McCoy, and they also would love to have this wrapped up, then what is preventing them from letting us know?

They may not have information exculding him but they may have info that provides a reasonable doubt about McCoy. Even if they had info that excluded him, it doesn't mean they know who did it. If it's either you end up with an open case as we have, at least as far as the FBI is concerned.

They have squat, just guesswork. Without specific linkage like fingerprints they spin wheels and throw darts and don't understand how to properly weight each criteria.

Yup not a single fingerprint matched McCoy from the Cooper skyjacking. If he was wearing a disguise as the book tries to assert, then it was not much of one because the disguise McCoy was wearing on the second flight had a wig and facial hair etc. The eye witnesses of the Cooper jacking did not recognize McCoy as the perp.

I'm going to contact the big cable talk shows again about doing this story. They continually ignore me, even when it's near the anniversary of Cooper's jump. I'm convinced there must be a reason for lack of coverage, perhaps that successful lawsuit.

I really thought I'd seen them all (shows on DB) until you mentioned a show that covers McCoy. The first time I'd heard of McCoy was by reading what info is available on the web. Quite frankly I hope someone comes out with a
two hour show that WON'T disappoint like the most recent ones certainly have. One of those shows I saw had the first officer on camera etc and no interview etc. I don't know that any show has interviewed Mucklow or the other stewardess but I think it's about time, as well as the FBI officers, and that they cover the aspects we've talked about on this board. I'd like to hear directly out of their mouthes about the Cooper/Mccoy connection etc, and stop wasting time on things like dropping that stunt man into a swimming pool etc.

It's really time for a comprehensive look into this thing, that spends about 15 minutes recapping both jackings and the remaining 1:45 covering interviews of the pilot(s), stewardesses (even from the convent:)) the FBI and whoever they can get and really take this thing apart.

This would make for much better television that most of that tish that fills our channels.

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

robbieasbury

05-03-2006, 08:13 PM

The Discovery Channel showed a dramatization on the McCoy skyjacking I would like it if they would release that on DVD.

Awsi Dooger

05-04-2006, 01:08 AM

If they had specific info excluding McCoy, they could release it regardless if they knew who Cooper was, or thought they did. If they had DNA from the cigarettes it shouldn't be any trouble exhuming McCoy's body for a sample. You would think Karen McCoy would not only agree to it, but insist on it, since she won a settlement. My argument would be she doesn't insist on it because she knows her husband was Cooper and a DNA match would reveal the truth and make her settlement obviously bogus and undeserved.

Well, the fingerprints didn't match but that's not saying much. The fingerprints were from all over the place and not known to be from Cooper. The FBI was so incompetent they didn't even keep or process the magazines that Cooper flipped through. Likewise, all the notes passed to the captain were returned to Cooper.

I'd like to see a program with the authors of the book debating people from the FBI who don't believe in the McCoy connection, like a liberal vs. conservative political show. The eyewitness stuff would be a bonus but doesn't interest me as much, especially after 35 years and faded memories.

Popeye Doyle

05-04-2006, 08:24 PM

u would think Karen McCoy would not only agree to it, but insist on it, since shIf they had specific info excluding McCoy, they could release it regardless if they knew who Cooper was, or thought they did. If they had DNA from the cigarettes it shouldn't be any trouble exhuming McCoy's body for a sample.

If she or his estate has any other items like a hairbrush, razor etc then there would be no need to exhume. Short of this, I'd like to know why certain factions of the FBI have written McCoy off.

Well, the fingerprints didn't match but that's not saying much. The fingerprints were from all over the place and not known to be from Cooper. The FBI was so incompetent they didn't even keep or process the magazines that Cooper flipped through. Likewise, all the notes passed to the captain were returned to Cooper.

I'd like to know what happened to the bourbon glass. Seems like a good candidate to lift a print :).

I'd like to see a program with the authors of the book debating people from the FBI who don't believe in the McCoy connection, like a liberal vs. conservative political show. The eyewitness stuff would be a bonus but doesn't interest me as much, especially after 35 years and faded memories.

I don't think that a debate would accomplish much because it would get unruly and it would be difficult to verify any of the facts. I'd much prefer an investigator turned reporter who can interview all parties in depth and track down and verify statements, facts, inferences etc. Then he/she could go back at various parties like a herding collie.

The eyewitness stuff does interest me. Even though memories have faded as to what DB looked like, the parties who were called to identify Cooper 4 months after the incident should still be able to recant why they didn't think that McCoy looked like Cooper. We'd hear it stright from the horse's mouth. They can also talk about Cooper's disguise or lack thereof. I wonder if that was covered in the book? In other words, I may not remember what somebody looked like from a bank robbery 30+ years ago, but I'd still remember why I was not able to identify the perp. from a lineup. In this case it wasn't a lineup, it was one person.

Popeye Doyle

Awsi Dooger

05-04-2006, 09:25 PM

An investigator would be preferable to nothing at all, but the presentation would be tilted via his own opinion and competence. A back and forth panel gives everyone the chance to absorb and analyze for themselves and not rely on second hand stuff.

Jim Thiesen was in the FBI, and assigned to the Cooper case, and did a point-by-point analysis beginning with the McCoy arrest on the language of the notes, the physical characteristics, the method of the operation. According to the book, "the further he went, the more convinced Thiesen became that Cooper and McCoy were one in the same."

The book quotes Thiesen, "The point is, boss, Cooper and McCoy were both wearing dark, heavy makeup, wigs and disguises..."

Here's an interesting lengthy section from the book, regarding the tie found on the Cooper plane and also McCoy practicing numerous freefall jumps beginning in October 1971, the month before the Cooper event in late November 1971.

"The FBI Freedom of Information Act section told Calame in a telephone conversation in July 1989 that they had pinpointed the location of the tie and clasp. They were located in the evidence room at the FBI division office in Seattle, Washington. That conversation also confirmed that the tie and clasp were, without any question, found in seat 18E on 24 November 1971 by Reno FBI agents during their search of Flight 305. The FBI FOIA officer further reported that personnel in the Seattle office had checked and confirmed that the objects were in fact there.

"Now, it's true that an official FBI form FD302, dated 24 November 1971, reports the search of the plane by four agents in Reno, it's also true that it does not contain any mention of the tie and tie clasp. However, a few days later, Reno sent the actual tie and clasp to the office of jurisdiction at Seattle. They're listed on the letter of transmittal that the FOIA officer checked for us.

"And furthermore, one of the interview transcripts released to us under the Freedom of Information suit had a nifty paragraph from Jim Thiesen's interview with Robert Van Ieperen:

"On April 18, 1972, Spcial Agent (Deleted) interviewed Robert Van Ieperen, 880 Sherwood, Salt Lake City, Utah who advised that Richard Floyd McCoy likes to wear conservative solid-colored clip-on ties similar to the tie recovered after the hijacking of a Northwest plane on November 24, 1971. Van Ieperen stated he had been out socially with McCoy and recalled that at a movie one night McCoy wore a clip-on tie and removed the tie when he sat down to watch the movie. Van Ieperen was shown a photograph of the tie clasp recovered in the above described investigation and he stated the clasps looked similar, but he could not say for sure if McCoy had one exactly like it. He said it is the type of tie clasp that McCoy would wear.

"Van Ieperen's wife, Mary Ann, was interviewed separately and had similar comments to her husband's concerning the tie and tie clasp.

"Van Ieperen stated McCoy made his first free fall parachute jump in October 1971, while on a flight with Van Ieperen. He stated McCoy has made numerous military type jumps and immediately following his first free-fall jump he began practicing with the Alta Parachute Club in Salt Lake City."

So that's intriguing on two respects. Hard to denounce the existence or significance of the tie and tie clasp when you've got an FBI agent specifically asking a friend of McCoy's about them within days of McCoy's capture. And that same friend recounts McCoy practicing parachute jumps, apparently with great intensity, in the period immediately preceeding the Cooper event. That may explain why he screwed up the monetary aspect of Cooper jump, since he didn't have long term experience. I doubt he was allowed to practice the jumps with a huge sum of money, or something weighing that much.

Awsi Dooger

05-04-2006, 09:32 PM

Here's another portion of the book, indicating the irrelevancy of the lack of a fingerprint match off the Cooper flight to McCoy.

"And it was not the FBI but the Reno crime lab ("if that's what you want to call them, said Norris, dubiously) that dusted for prints. And there was no time for the FBI to do it over again, either. By 9:00 AM Thanksgiving morning, Flight 305 was released back to the airline and flew out.

"Eleven prints, either partials or smudged, were sent out that night back to the FBI Fingerprint Division. "We photographed and lifted anything we could find," Ricks said. "We knew Flight 305 was going to get a lot of attention. At the same time, we knew it was useless." Two days later, 26 November 1971, Red Campbell received a teletype from FBI headquarters, confirming their educated appraisal about the smudges: "Finger prints found on Flight 305 of no value."

Popeye Doyle

05-04-2006, 11:25 PM

Awsi Dooger

05-05-2006, 12:29 AM

So here's the next question. With all that supposed evidence, why on earth did the FBI consider John List (sp?) a possible suspect?

He wasn't even caught until that Frank Bender aged model(which btw was dead on ) appeared on AMW or UM or some other show and a neighbor called it in just a few years ago.

Popeye

Actually, a few years ago was early summer 1989. I concede it doesn't seem that long ago.

Why wouldn't they consider List? There's zero evidence or common sense linking him to the Cooper event, identical to Duane Weber. That seems to be the criteria, for at least a segment of the FBI.

I don't know that List was seriously considered. He eliminated his family shortly before the Cooper jump so that's what peaks curiosity, nothing to lose since he's already wanted for something much worse.

I suppose he was considered during the period after List's family was found murdered, but before they found out more about List. He didn't exactly fit the personality profile or background or physique required to leap out of a plane, especially when he leaves a note saying his mother's body was upstairs and not alongside the others, because she was too heavy to lift.

Popeye Doyle

05-05-2006, 10:24 AM

Awsi Dooger

05-05-2006, 10:52 PM

What was the MO of the other 2 '72 Jackings? There seems to be little information on these on the web, or at least I don't know where to look.

It would be interesting to look into the details of those as well.

Popeye Doyle

The book has a short chapter on one of them. I'm not sure if it's one you're referring to. Much younger perpetrator. I've seen references to other "similar" attempts in 1972, presumably involving a Boeing 727, but I agree there is almost zero info.

Western Airlines Flight 407 out of Salt Lake City on May 8, 1972, just a month after the McCoy jump. A young man started waving a 357 Magnum and told the stewardess to tell the pilot, "We're going to Cuba!"

He was described as about 20, 6 foot 2, 170 pounds. Made remarks indicating bitterness over the Vietnam war.

An FBI agent was sharp in that case and recognized the description and war rantings as similar to someone he's interviewed a year earlier, a student at the University of Utah, Michael Lynn Hansen. His mother contacted the FBI after hearing word of the hijacking, speculating it could be her son. He wasn't home and the details of what he was saying matched.

Hansen was initially jailed in Cuba, one of the first prisoners released from a Cuban prison and sent back to the United States by Castro. He was twice caught going over the fence at the Cuban prison. Apparently his parents bribed the Cuban warden with a monthly check. Once returned to the U.S., Hansen was prosecuted for air piracy and sentenced to 10 years. He absconded once on parole and was a federal fugitive. After being convicted of robbery in Oregon, he wasn't released from custody until 1987.

Popeye Doyle

05-06-2006, 06:13 PM

Awsi Dooger

05-06-2006, 06:48 PM

Awsi,

Your knowledge is second to none! Maybe if you can catch the ear of one of those networks they'll let *YOU* do the "COMPREHENSIVE" investigation we all want.

Despite the fact that you seem convinced that Cooper and McCoy are 6 and 1/2 dozen respectively, I'd still trust that you have enough doubt, or enough conviction to either see your suspicion through or find the ultimate truth.

Popeye

Thanks Popeye. But all I did was read a book after hearing about a possible connection, one that made sense to me since I'm always looking for the most basic explanation.

I'm going to send another feeler to the networks about doing a program. Anyone have any suggestions? I've tried the major cable network shows like Larry King, along with places like 20/20 and Dateline.

Awsi Dooger

05-08-2006, 01:08 AM

Here's a link to some photos from Bernie Rhodes, printed in the book that I've quoted from in this thread. They are mostly in Provo, where McCoy lived, including a picture of his house at the time of the skyjacking.

http://content.lib.utah.edu/cgi-bin/queryresults.exe?&CISORESTMP=/site-templates/search_results.html&CISOVIEWTMP=/site-templates/item_viewer.html&CISOMODE=grid&CISOGRID=thumbnail,A,1;title,A,1;subjec,A,0;relati,A,0;phnum,A,1;10&CISOBIB=title,A,1,N;subjec,A,0,N;relati,A,0,N;phnum,A,1,N;covera,A,0,N;10&CISOTHUMB=2,5&CISOTITLE=10&CISOROOT1=/Photo_Arch_Three&CISOOP=all&CISOFIELD1=relati&CISOBOX1=p0642

UMLongtimefan

05-08-2006, 10:36 PM

Awsi Dooger

05-08-2006, 11:41 PM

AWSI,

I think DB Cooper and Anastasia were profiled on an HBO Show a long time ago about unsolved mysteries (I'm talking 1981-82) did you ever see that? I remember asking my dad back then about the case since I was too young to remember DB, and he said "the bears ate him"...:p (the sort of thing I think Dad's everywhere tell their sons so they don't think of robbing banks and hijacking planes) I think the McCoy Connection is just to obvious to ignore.

Popeye brings up a great point about chain smoking and drinking McCoy? Buttttt let's not forget even Devout (If McCoy was a LDS/Mormon) people can break/ignore the rules (hey why's he hijacking planes and having shootouts with the police?). McCoy being in the military couldn't have been totally foriegn to the exposure of cigarettes and booze and the 911 hijackers supposedly being devout muslims went to strip clubs and drank alchol before their attacks.

Just throwing in few tidbits hope their helpful.

Great research! Even if you just borrowed it all from a book.

Excellent post, UMLongtimefan. I'm not familiar with that HBO show but maybe I'll do some checking on it. I'm guessing an early '80s show wouldn't have included McCoy as a suspect.

Popeye brought up some very good points, as you mentioned. I never thought about the Muslim example on 9/11 or I would have used it as a potential trump card in my replies to Popeye. :lol: My dad is very much anti-gambling but has frequently told me about gambling away his pay while in the Navy. So you're right, the military offers exposure to aspects you might not partake in otherwise.

Here's a link to my thread regarding the Cooper/McCoy theory. It's on page two now so you may have missed it: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=67888

Popeye Doyle

05-10-2006, 05:59 PM

AWSI,

Popeye brings up a great point about chain smoking and drinking McCoy? Buttttt let's not forget even Devout (If McCoy was a LDS/Mormon) people can break/ignore the rules (hey why's he hijacking planes and having shootouts with the police?). McCoy being in the military couldn't have been totally foriegn to the exposure of cigarettes and booze and the 911 hijackers supposedly being devout muslims went to strip clubs and drank alchol before their attacks.

Good points but the muslims did that to fit in as by decree they were supposed to do. I doubt they'd have had a few right before the jacking. DB didn't have one or two ciggies he "chain smoked". He also was described as being dark skinned "spanish" or the like. Neither stewardess thought that
McCoy looked like Cooper and the composite of Cooper doesn't look like it was drawn based on someone who was wearing a disguise.

I think that many profilers who have analyzed Cooper have suggested that he might be someone who was probably interested in antiques ;).

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-10-2006, 07:32 PM

He also was described as being dark skinned "spanish" or the like. Neither stewardess thought that McCoy looked like Cooper and the composite of Cooper doesn't look like it was drawn based on someone who was wearing a disguise.

I think that many profilers who have analyzed Cooper have suggested that he might be someone who was probably interested in antiques ;).

Popeye

I'll quote from the book again, page 156. "Witnesses described DB Cooper as olive complected, possibly Spanish. They said he was in his late 20s to mid 40s, approximately 5 feet 10 inches tall, weighing 160 to 170 pounds. He had short black shiny hair, probably a wig, with sideburns below his earlobes, large protruding ears, and dark eyes.

"Richard (McCoy) wore a dark wig which covered his ears, heavy, dark makeup, and dark mascara on his long sideburns and mustache. Several witnesses thought him Spanish. Stewardesses aboard the Cooper plane, when shown photographs of Richard McCoy, agreed that he appeared very similar to the FBI artist's conception of DB Cooper..."

As far as I know, the stewardesses aboard the Cooper flight were never taken to see Richard McCoy in person, nor talk to him. Tina Mucklow renounced the world and joined a convent as Sister Mary Alice. She was no help when the authors tried to contact her, saying she had no memories of the incident.

It should be noted Tina Mucklow was the person who witnessed and described Cooper removing his tie and tie clasp and placing them on the seat before he jumped. Those are the same items two of McCoy's relatives immediately identified as belonging to McCoy, without knowing where they had been found.

Awsi Dooger

05-10-2006, 10:34 PM

Popeye Doyle

05-10-2006, 10:43 PM

Well, now I know why that picture of the home in Virginia Beach (bottom of page 3, post from Popeye Doyle) looked exactly as I envisioned it. The book included a small picture from 1971, but it was subliminally tucked at the bottom of a page in the pictures section of the book. Home is identical but the shrubs were much lower and that massive tree from 2006 didn't exist at all in 1971.

Interesting. I wonder if those blood stains on the brick contain any DNA we can pit against those cigarette butts from flight 305 :)?

Speaking of the devil...why can't we get any DNA from the former Misses and settle (or maybe never settle) this once and for all?

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-10-2006, 10:59 PM

Interesting. I wonder if those blood stains on the brick contain any DNA we can pit against those cigarette butts from flight 305 :)?

Speaking of the devil...why can't we get any DNA from the former Misses and settle (or maybe never settle) this once and for all?

Popeye

It would have to be DNA from the McCoy children, not the ex-wife. Better would be from his exhumed body, perhaps bone marrow or teeth.

I've never seen it confirmed they have a DNA profile from the blood stains or cigarette butts. That would be one thing a TV panel could confirm or deny. More likely from the cigarette butts since I doubt they were saving blood stain samples from a brick house in 1972.

Popeye Doyle

05-11-2006, 05:32 PM

It would have to be DNA from the McCoy children, not the ex-wife. Better would be from his exhumed body, perhaps bone marrow or teeth.

Well the thinking was the ex would have some personal items. Then perhaps exhuming wouldn't be necessary.

I've never seen it confirmed they have a DNA profile from the blood stains or cigarette butts. That would be one thing a TV panel could confirm or deny. More likely from the cigarette butts since I doubt they were saving blood stain samples from a brick house in 1972.

The blood stains from the bricks at 733 N. Great Neck were a feeble attempt at UM humor. The cigarette butts I was referring to were D.B.'s that are still in evidence from flight 305. Not sure you could extract DNA from those.

Popeye

UMLongtimefan

05-15-2006, 09:44 PM

The cigarette butts I was referring to were D.B.'s that are still in evidence from flight 305. Not sure you could extract DNA from those.

Well the dna from those cigs would have to be the saliva or the epithelieal(sp?:p ) cells from the lips..

Seems likely unless the evidence was well preserved useable DNA evidence would be very hard to get... we're talking 30 + years.

Then more than likely would you have to get a court order to take samples from the family.. or Awsi would the McCoys volunteer?

Awsi Dooger

05-15-2006, 10:36 PM

Well the dna from those cigs would have to be the saliva or the epithelieal(sp?:p ) cells from the lips..

Seems likely unless the evidence was well preserved useable DNA evidence would be very hard to get... we're talking 30 + years.

Then more than likely would you have to get a court order to take samples from the family.. or Awsi would the McCoys volunteer?

I don't think the McCoys want any part of this so I would say no. The wife won a settlement against the book publisher and authors for making the DB Cooper claim. A DNA match would obviously change how that is viewed, if not recover any money. You would have the potential for lawsuit(s) in the other direction. The wife and two McCoy children have been silent to the point of non-existent on this matter, at least publicly.

Popeye Doyle

05-20-2006, 05:51 PM

Another question that comes to mind is where was Himmelsbach's management when he just basically (if you want to believe the book) ignored all the evidence of the McCoy connection?

Let's say he's investigating this case and all this evidence comes up, why does it seem that he just basically let's McCoy off the hook? It's not as though McCoy died just days afterward, he lived years after the jacking? Sooo why wouldn't his direct FBI superior in a meeting ask this and get him to fully report on his findings of this connection? I'm still puzzled by this...ie that he SEEMS to have just either bungled or let the entire thing go.

What gives??

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-20-2006, 10:04 PM

I don't have enough respect for Himmelsbach to analyze anything he did, or failed to do. Sometimes they hire FBI agents, and sometimes they hand out a badge and title. Show up and maybe someone will screw up and give you the job.

lukepistol

05-24-2006, 11:27 PM

mcCoy being d.b. is hard to make people believe,and it has great evidence researched by some on here to think that, but it is not true. mcCoy simply jumped on a great con. he resembled db and saw a chance to be famous and rich. the theory he lost money in the jump,at least one 20$ would have turned up!cleaned it in vegas, with some powerful mafia ties there in the 70's no way would they even allow in money that the fbi was hunting down in a case that big. as far as finding recipts and alibi's making him db,that was all done very easy to back up the infamy he was seeking. if db lived, he got away,doing it again exactly like before down to the same seat, no way, mcCoy did this for cash and if it worked,raise the questions we are on here right now doing! the fbi has some details exluded in which very few classify to know,thus filtering out even more false leads! and as far as the retired fbi agent being crazy and dumb for leading searches in wrong places,he was given the info from the fbi on the plane's path,trusting them was very easy on his part never second guessing a mistake made by the fbi. i think db never landed on the ground, parachute didnt open, backing up the jets following never saw a glimpse of him, and enbeded himself atop the trees where its impossible to look in areas he could have wedged himself in stuck forever. i dont believe he thought he would get that far with it. he never asked for a certain amount of money and was no where close to being dressed for a climate to jump and survive,he went with the flow acting on gut instincts and got away,just maybe not living to tell about it! as far as the money washing up,he either put most of the money in some other carrier and threw the bag out first,(possibly weighing enough to bury itself just enough to go undetected to it was found) his hope to mislead a possible search for him or it fell as he franticly tried to open his parachute. to mastermind the whole thing with an escape and have it work was the work of a genius,but that also makes me question his mental stability for why he chose jumping into the some of the deepest backcountry known in conditions where the thought of surviving was imagable. did he have a deathwish and wanted to be remembered or truly believed he can pull it off?

Awsi Dooger

05-25-2006, 12:17 AM

Whew. That's the epitome of how conspiracy theories and wild tales unfold. Just not my game. If I tried to estimate the odds of all that being true, or even most of it, I could multiply the national debt by the speed of light and still come up woefully short.

But I do appreciate this thread being bumped.:lol:

lukepistol

05-25-2006, 12:52 AM

yeah, hearing 1,000 different ways it went down you get sucked in wanting to resolve it yourself,just some fun thinking a real treasure is out there,and some old money to go with him!

Awsi Dooger

05-25-2006, 04:13 AM

yeah, hearing 1,000 different ways it went down you get sucked in wanting to resolve it yourself,just some fun thinking a real treasure is out there,and some old money to go with him!

This case will remain an eternal mystery in the public mind no matter anything myself or others believes about McCoy. And maybe that's for the best. You're right, all the possibilities and unknowns are what contributes to that, along with the missing cash.

The monetary aspect is unexplained on both scenarios. Where is the rest of the loot in the woods? And if McCoy was Cooper and did maintain a few thousand and tried to wash it in Las Vegas, why didn't those bills show up? The book didn't really address that last point, one of the major omissions.

I also would have liked a better timeline regarding McCoy's morning drive from Provo to Las Vegas. They gave some time specifics including a gas purchase and it looked like he had plenty of time to get there, but the full details and estimate would have been preferable, especially since I-15 was new and under construction in some sections.

Popeye Doyle

05-26-2006, 09:51 PM

Chain smoke Ralieghs?

Popeye Doyle

05-27-2006, 12:15 AM

I was just asking if your suspect Chain-smoked Raleighs or chain smoked...or smoked at all?

I asked because RFMcCoy was a a non-smoker and tea totaler.

PD

Awsi Dooger

05-27-2006, 01:32 AM

i think db never landed on the ground, parachute didnt open, backing up the jets following never saw a glimpse of him, and enbeded himself atop the trees where its impossible to look in areas he could have wedged himself in stuck forever.

My suspect, (see my previous post), lived in the Portland area and was driving home after landing in the Orchards and Woodland area on the night of the heist. He turned on the radio and heard that the FBI was starting roadblocks in an attempt to find Cooper. Knowing this, I believe my suspect got scared as he approached the bridge on 1-5 heading into Portland. If the FBI had a roadblock at the Oregon side of the i_5 bridge and Cooper had the money in his car, he was caught red handed. Hence, he took the last exit before heading into Oregon which took him on Fourth Plain road which eventually leads into Lower River road.

One guy has Cooper stuck in a tree, and the other has him nonchalantly driving home until he turns on the radio and learns about roadblocks.

It is a remarkable case in that regard. I enjoy the creative theories but somehow I'll stick with Richard Floyd McCoy.

Awsi Dooger

05-27-2006, 05:01 AM

Richard McCoy, who was thoroughly investigated by the FBI, was found to be in LA with his national guard unit the day of the Cooper heist.

McCoy was driving to Las Vegas on the morning of the Cooper jump. I've demonstrated that repeatedly in these threads. Even McCoy didn't claim to be in Los Angeles that day. He said he was at home helping with Thanksgiving dinner. If he had a perfect alibi, why not use it? McCoy's national guard duties were very loosely structured. He had certain assignments and numbers of days to work, but not rigidly confined to a brief number of days. There have never been any specifics placing McCoy in Los Angeles that day. Quite the contrary, earlier in this thread I specifically quoted a NORJAK secret memo detailing McCoy's trip to Las Vegas.

Awsi Dooger

05-27-2006, 05:26 AM

McCoy needed his wife's assistance in pulling off his heist in his home of Utah. How in the heck did he pull off the crime over 1,000 miles from his house without his wife if he needed her help in Utah. How did McCoy know where to jump? How was he able to recognize Tacoma from the air? Don't forget, McCoy was in a mental institution in the fall of 1971. Why didn't McCoy divert the Cooper plane to San Francisco and jump over Utah instead of jumping over an unfamilar territory like Washington? I respect your opinion that Mccoy may have been Cooper, however, you have to respect the fact the FBI checked out McCoy and he was with his national guard unit and most importantly, Florence Shaffner said that Mccoy is not Cooper. Heck, even Himmelsbach admits that McCoy is not Cooper.

Himmelsbach ADMITS McCoy is not Cooper? Try again. How does a hack like Himmelsbach get accorded an authoritative word like admits? He pathetically claims.

The book was hardly a money maker.

Eyewitness testimony from a stewardess based on a photo means squat. Let her talk to McCoy, wearing similar makeup and disguise as Cooper had. If that had been done, the experiment means something. It wasn't.

Cooper provided specific altitude, route and speed, along Vector 23. Indications are he sat on the steps for several minutes before jumping. So he knew the approximate area.

We have no idea how much help Karen McCoy gave her husband prior to the Cooper event. She may have typed the notes, identical to the second jump. No reason to believe otherwise. McCoy was much more careful the first time in diverting his route and staying far from home. The second time he got cocky and practically landed in his back yard. Along with his bragging to the friend about how simple it would be, that proximity led to his capture.

McCoy was not in a mental institution in fall '71. He spent several days in the hospital where extensive tests revealed severe migraine headaches or a possible brain tumor. McCoy had hoped to go into the aviation side of law enforcement but he thought that diagnosis made him no longer employable, since it required high medical standards with annual physicals. The cutoff age was 30 and McCoy was 29.

That's another indication of potential motive, since McCoy was already in poor financial shape and now his career plans were imploding.

Popeye Doyle

05-27-2006, 04:36 PM

If he had a perfect alibi, why not use it?

This is something we have stated over and over and Cooper-catcher has iterated. Plain and simple, McCoy doesn't want an alibi for the Cooper jacking he relished in the sheepish glory of being assumed to be Cooper.

As for Calame, he's got a book to write that goes nowhere if he can't make the Cooper-McCoy connection. I wouldn't take the supposed facts in that book for gospel.

When you consider both these points the FBI doesn't look quite as bad as they've been made out to be. Again, they've got to be MUCH less than perfect for a book like this to sell.

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-27-2006, 07:54 PM

This is something we have stated over and over and Cooper-catcher has iterated. Plain and simple, McCoy doesn't want an alibi for the Cooper jacking he relished in the sheepish glory of being assumed to be Cooper.

As for Calame, he's got a book to write that goes nowhere if he can't make the Cooper-McCoy connection. I wouldn't take the supposed facts in that book for gospel.

When you consider both these points the FBI doesn't look quite as bad as they've been made out to be. Again, they've got to be MUCH less than perfect for a book like this to sell.

Popeye

Tell me what facts in the book you dispute. It's beyond pathetic to simply reject the researched facts because they don't jive with your denial of McCoy as Cooper.

Behaviorial aspects mean nothing. You keep mentioning drinking and smoking as major factors. They can be altered on a whim, intentionally or through sheer nervousness.

McCoy didn't want to be identified as Cooper due to the prospect of another charge and additional jail time. I mentioned that in a previous post. He didn't expect to get anything close to the 45 year sentence that Judge Witter gave him. He had two young children. After he got the 45 years would have been a perfect opportunity for Bernie Rhodes to approach him again about being Cooper, but it idiotically never happened. The segments from the book I quoted were all pre-sentencing.

I just wish the truth could be revealed tomorrow at noon. I could wager planetary cent on McCoy being Cooper and have so much the best of it I could give 100/1 odds beforehand. You guys probably reject that, and members of the FBI no doubt would also, but they have no clue regarding probability. That's obvious from their approach to the case, identifying minor factors to obsess over, while ignoring or downplaying the glaring big ticket stuff like his trip to Las Vegas, lack of credit card activity for 36 hours, identical aviation forms, etc. I wish every mystery were as simple as this one.

Popeye Doyle

05-27-2006, 10:50 PM

Tell me what facts in the book you dispute. It's beyond pathetic to simply reject the researched facts because they don't jive with your denial of McCoy as Cooper.

To begin with, this book was not written as a fact finding mission, but rather it tells a story, gives a point of view, and it's intent was to make money. The fact that it fell short of anyone's financial goals does not in any way change it's purpose or intent. Any idea how many other books contain "researched" facts that are just plain WRONG? You completely shoot down Florence's rejection that McCoy is Cooper by writing that off to a disguise. What disguise do you see on the composite photo of Cooper??? Are you implying that he was wearing a huge disguise but somehow the composite is Florence's or Tina's perception/guess of what he might have looked like underneath all that makeup/Wig etc???

Behaviorial aspects mean nothing. You keep mentioning drinking and smoking as major factors. They can be altered on a whim, intentionally or through sheer nervousness.

An easy way to write something off after the fact. People who don't smoke and are nervous don't pick up cigarettes, nor do they instinctively carry them with them. Anyone can tell the difference between a natural chain smoker and someone puffing on ciggies for effect.

McCoy didn't want to be identified as Cooper due to the prospect of another charge and additional jail time. I mentioned that in a previous post. He didn't expect to get anything close to the 45 year sentence that Judge Witter gave him. He had two young children. After he got the 45 years would have been a perfect opportunity for Bernie Rhodes to approach him again about being Cooper, but it idiotically never happened. The segments from the book I quoted were all pre-sentencing.

Anyone worried about charges/jailtime and/or his two young children doesn't pull off a stunt like this and then brag about it a day later. Landing in the pokey can really put a clamper on a second attempt ;). We know that McCoy's mouth was probably bigger than his brain, and therefore he'd have had only 1 shot.

I just wish the truth could be revealed tomorrow at noon.

Well...maybe in about 3 weeks. We'll see what Coopercatcher comes up with. Who kows maybe Weber had a younger brother :lol: .

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 12:38 AM

Popeye, you still haven't provided one fact from the book that you reject. Name one. Go ahead, it's not hard. Even Bush the other day said he shouldn't have used language like dead or alive.

I can't take you seriously when you provide vague garbage like "researched facts that are just plain wrong." Are you saying McCoy never drove to Las Vegas? Seriously, do you guys who reject McCoy as Cooper haved any idea how difficult that is to attribute to anything else, something besides the Cooper event? You describe McCoy as a non-drinker and tee-totaler. He also wasn't a gambler. So, using your own behavioral illogic, what was he doing traveling to Las Vegas on the EXACT day of the Cooper jump. Go ahead and dismiss it. You've tried that before, something ridiculous like "there are many oddities in life." Frankly, that's laughably ignorant. People who don't gamble just don't do that, right, drive to Las Vegas? You make this too easy, just applying your own lame arguments elsewhere.

What are the odds someone who never drove to Las Vegas before, would now do it? Now, what are the odds it would happen on that one specific day? Popeye will obviously reject everything, but maybe others who are reading this begin to catch on.

You are too petrified to read the book so how do you know what the motivation was? It was quietly written nearly 20 years after the event, so hardly a rush job to capitalize on the instant publicity of the Cooper jump. Rhodes was assigned to the case as a probation and parole officer, to interview McCoy after the second skyjacking, to understand the criminal and what provoked the crime. He didn't start out as someone with an agenda, to write a book. This is the only book of his career, based on info and theory. The book was started in 1985 and not published until 1991, very well researched including liberal use of the Freedom of Information Act.

You conveniently, and predictably, reject or embrace the composites. When I posted the side by sides earlier in this thread, you reject them because the similarity is so damningly obvious. Now you want to use them and ask what evidence from the composite indicates some form of disguise? A composite is a composite. If we had a picture then I'd comment.

None of us have any idea how accurate the composites were. At least one of the Cooper stewardesses said they never really looked like him. There is very little chance two completely different people will look as similar as McCoy does to the composites of Cooper. That is my only major summation and it carries tons of weight, whether you accept it or not. Two people should have different facial structures, different height and weight, different hair lines, etc. Here they are amazingly similar. The stewardesses never saw McCoy in person, to my knowledge, after the second event. They looked at photos. I've posted earlier in this thread that they agreed McCoy looked like the Cooper composites. If the stewardesses had spoken to McCoy after the second event, watched him smoke cigarettes and done various things apropos to the first skyjacking, and still rejected him, then I would give it some weight. But not above the incredible similarities/details screaming McCoy was Cooper. Eyewitness identification blows. One lawyer after another will tell you that.

Who said McCoy instinctively carried the cigarettes with him? The book says McCoy likely bought Raleigh brand cigarettes just before departure. That is McCoy's original hometown and the brand was so obscure it made for just 1.5% of all cigarette sales at that point. Another coincidence. Sure.

Popeye, I appreciated your early posts on this matter and especially taking a picture of the home McCoy was killed in. You have significantly regressed. They are virtually parodies of opinion, at this point. No threat of substance. Raise your game, and not just a little bit. :lol:

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 06:00 AM

Awsi,

why do you attack everyone who thinks that Mccoy isn't Cooper? You state the composite sketches are a poor way of identifying a suspect, which I agree with, but then state that one of the flight attendants stated Cooper looked nothing like the sketches. You are correct, Florence Schaffner said that. The same Florence Schaffner that said that McCoy was not Cooper. You keep going back to the national guard alibi is not concrete. That alibi is from the FBI. Are you insinuating the FBI is lying about checking out McCoy's alibi or what. I can tell you when and who from the FBI stated that McCoy was checked out and was with his national guard unit. First you attack us, now you are attacking the credibility of the FBI. I have a question. Are you related to or are you in fact Russ Calame, the author of the Mccoy book. You keep on attacking Popeye, but I have actually read that book and every other book on this case. Calame only gives a circumstantial case and never explains how he believes Mccoy pulled off the Cooper case. A receipt from obtaining gas in Las Vegas (if authentic) does not prove that McCoy was ever in Portland or is Cooper. All it proves is that McCoy was in Vegas. Which, by the way, is very close to Utah and still 1,000 miles from Portland. And if I recall correctly, the book states that McCoys wife did in fact give Mccoy a ride to the airport as he flew to Denver from Utah before he initiated his crime. According to the book, McCoy's wife also helped confirm his initial alibi to the FBI about being out to dinner with her on the day of the Mccoy hijacking.

I have a question to Popeye and Awsi. If you were the FBI agent investigating this case, and somebody called in a lead on a man in his late thirties, who was a skydiver, pilot, mechanic, armed robber, grew up in the NOrthwest, had family in the seattle area, had access to a leased private plane (in which he was three months behind in payments at the time of the heist), ex-army, and was in a dispute with the FAA at the time of the heist, lived across from the Portland airport, wouldn't you want to at least interview this guy and find out where he was during the hours of 2-10 on NOvember 24, 1971. By the way, if anyone has the gall to accuse me of making this up or exaggerating, I can and will prove it with written documentation. I have all the court documents, white pages, arrest records, etc. which proves this.

I look forward to a response. For the record, I have not, I repeat, I have not, 100% ruled out McCoy. However, given what the FBI states and talking with Florence, I think he is an unlikely suspect.

I attack nonsense. Popeye is too caught up on the smoking/drinking aspect. I didn't attack your first post because it more or less attacked itself. Come on, pretending you know exactly what exit Cooper took and that he heard reports of road blocks on a radio. It reminded me of a story my dad told me as a kid. One night he had a guy stuck in a huge hole with all kinds of jungle animals about to attack him. The next night, he resumed the story with, "After he got out of the pit, Johnny..." That's where you place Cooper, nonchalantly driving a car without explaining the source of the car, etc. I couldn't take anything beyond that seriously.

Yes, I absolutely am attacking the FBI if they think McCoy was in Los Angeles with his national guard unit. If that were true, the Bernie Rhodes book never would have been written. How do you explain the gas receipts with McCoy's confirmed signature, and his actual license plate number written down by the station attendant, if he was in Los Angeles? There wasn't enough extra miles on his car for a drive to Los Angeles and back. So are you telling me he drove to Las Vegas because he wanted to catch a plane to Los Angeles? That's Monty Python. Especially if you also want to believe he never used his credit card for 36 hours, covering the precise timeline of the Cooper event.

Amazing how no one wants to tackle that aspect. McCoy is known to be a heavy user of his credit card. He willingly uses it several times immediately preceeding the Cooper timeline, then resumes again a day later including another another gas purchase from Las Vegas, the closest station to Mccarron Airport. Also a collect call to his home from the closest hotel to the airport. Nothing in between. Like he vaporized. Remarkable coincidence.

You say the credit receipt proves McCoy was in Las Vegas. But you also accept the FBI version of national guard? Which is it? This was the same day. Maybe that's not being emphasized enough. He drove to Las Vegas on the early morning hours of the same day Cooper jumped.

I don't know anything about your suspect. The peretrator of these skyjackings died in late 1974.

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 06:14 AM

Awsi, have you read Tosaw's book, DB Cooper, DEad or Alive? On page 84, Tosaw quotes Van Ieperen, the state trooper who was McCoy's friend and turned him in for the hijacking. On this page, Tosaw asks Van Ieperen why McCoy pulled off the heist. Van Ieperen states, "McCoy had heard about what Cooper had done and wanted to try it". This is from a friend of McCoy's. If Van Ieperen had any inclination that McCoy was Cooper, Van Ieperen would have pushed this connection to the limit because he would have been eligible for the huge reward which was being offered. Explain this.\

By the way, I appreciate your comments on the case. I agree with just about everything you state other than your 100% assertion about the McCoy connection. Eyewitnesses are generally unreliable in most cases. In addition, there were over four different composites of Cooper, and his age, height and weight varied depending on who you talked to. It is impossible to guess a certain age, weight and height. Especially, when someone is under stress and the perp. is sitting down wearing sunglasses and threatening your life. I also believe Cooper was wearing sunglasses, dyed his hair (this is from Florence), wore black clothing, sat for the majority of the crime, and wore makeup and smoked, all to prevent witnesses from getting a good look.

I appreciate the confirmation Cooper wore makeup and did several things to alter/conceal his appearance. Maybe Popeye will take note of that.

I mentioned Van Ieperen and his wife earlier in this thread. Not only did he provide McCoy's name to the FBI, he also stated McCoy wore clip-on ties and tie clasps similar to the ones recovered from the Cooper jump. His wife said so also. Those were the items immediately identified by two of McCoy's relatives as belonging to McCoy after they were shown pictures, and without knowing where they had been found, in aisle 18 of the Cooper flight. That's another aspect that doesn't receive full weight. As far as I know, only McCoy's relatives have identified those items. Where do we place that on the scale of significance? I know damn well you guys would be using it against McCoy, dismissing him completely, if none of his relatives had identified the items and in fact stated he owned nothing like that. But since it matches McCoy again, well just a little bit of trivia.

I don't know about the reward aspect. Seems like the FBI wanted to discourage and deny the two skyjackings were linked, to prevent the knowledge they had been scammed twice by the same guy.

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 06:23 AM

Response to Awsi, response number 91

Cooper only gave one note during his heist. This note was hand written, not typed as you stated. All other requests were made by Cooper via oral cummunication with Florence and Tina who in turn wrote down his demands on the back of an envelope. This is one of the major differences between McCoy and Cooper's M.O. McCoy typed his demands on FAA flight cards, except of course, for his last note, which he hurriedly handwrote on the plane, and forget to get back from Diane Surnam. This was a critical mistake as the handwriting matched his army file. (along with fingerprints from the magazine he read)

Wrong. Cooper's first contact with Florence Schaffner was to show him a typed envelope stating, MISS - I HAVE A BOMB HERE, AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO SIT BY ME

Later, he had Tina Mucklow take up a typed federal aviation flight plan form to the cockpit, instructing Captain Scott in specifics like following flight path Vector 23 south along Interstate 5 in the direction of Reno. Cooper instructed Tina Mucklow to return the flight plan and note to him, and she did. Same thing McCoy did. The aviation forms were identical to the ones McCoy used months later.

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 07:12 PM

I would love to know how the FBI claims McCoy was elsewhere on November 24, 1971, the day of the Cooper skyjacking. It's the only rationale I've ever seen for excluding McCoy. Yet here is the relevant paragraph from the Real McCoy book:

"Richard's records at Brigham Young University confirmed that he finished his last class before the Thanksgiving break at 9:30 AM Tuesday, 23 November. The next day, day of the hijacking, he was supposed to be on National Guard duty, but he wasn't. The duty roster showed that Richard attended four drills the week before 20 November and five drills three weeks later, 12-16 December 1971. He wasn't assigned to attend particular drills -- just so many within a given time period -- and could work the details out for himself. And he'd worked completely around the week of the D.B. Cooper hijacking."

On November 24, the day of the Cooper jump, McCoy's credit card is used early in the morning in Cedar City, Utah, 182 miles northeast of Las Vegas. While Utah borders Nevada, the distance between Provo and Las Vegas is 410 miles. So hardly a morning spin. There had to be a very specific reason for the trip. After the long period of no credit card activity, there is a gas purchase shortly after 11 PM from Las Vegas, with McCoy's signature on the receipt and matched to his handwriting. Twenty minutes earlier there was a collect call to his home in Provo, from the Tropicana Hotel.

This is obviously a rehash of things I've posted previously. But something has got to give. Either the book makes up all these details, or the FBI's version placing McCoy elsewhere is bunk. Pardon me if I lean toward the latter.

Before being told of the credit card records, McCoy insisted his wife and sister-in-law could alibi him. The wife could not be forced to give evidence against her husband. The sister-in-law, instead of saying she didn't remember, spit out an alibi that sounded like it had been rehearsed, according to the authors. Once McCoy was presented with the credit card info, he said, "You seem to have all the answers. You tell me."

Part of the reason for the FBI's dismissal of the McCoy connection may be that Russell Calame, the co-author of the book, retired in June 1972, just two months after the McCoy skijacking. His replacement resented Calame, refused to accept the McCoy-Cooper hypothesis, and never reasigned the case after investigator Jim Thiesen was transferred. Thiesen was originally assigned to the Cooper case, long before the McCoy skyjacking. He was the one who became keenly aware of the similarities of the two events, doing a point-by-point analysis on the language of the notes, physical characteristics, method of operation. The further he went, according to the book, the more convinced Thiesen became that Cooper and McCoy were one and the same.

McCoy's wife refused to talk to the authors of the book and would not sign authorization files under the Freedom of Information Act, which would have allowed the release of many of the original files.

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 07:40 PM

Regarding smoking and drinking, it's hardly true McCoy had never done either. In his first interview with Bernie Rhodes, these are the relevant quotes:

"I have uncles and aunts who smoke, close friends that smoke, and of course I've tried it too, if that's what you want to hear, but no, I can't say I enjoy smoking."

"Nope, don't drink or gamble. I've had liquor a few times in my life, Mr. Rhodes, but when you're ready to jot these things down for Judge Ritter, give him the truth; Richard Floyd McCoy, Jr. doesn't drink, smoke or gamble. Because he doesn't."

That was pre-sentencing and McCoy trying to win any points possible with the judge. Very typical to severely downplay in that situation. The estimates from the Cooper event were 8 Raliegh cigarettes. I haven't seen a guess regarding liquor.

Regardless, IMO those are irrelevant concerns, in the big picture. If McCoy was Cooper he obviously went to extreme measure: a practice run three weeks earlier, driving more than 400 miles to fly out of a city he wouldn't be associated with, parachuting into a remote area that required an extremely long trek back to Las Vegas and his car. Smoking and drinking, even if he didn't prefer them, would seem to fit into that concealment paranoia. My guess: after the first event he foolishly decided most of the head fakes were overdone. Combine the tension with the no-doubt exhausting trip out of the woods and finding a way back to Las Vegas, with losing the money, and he must have felt like a world class moron. He over rotated in the second event, and eliminated all the precaution to the point he practically parachuted atop his own home.

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 07:51 PM

dbcoopercatcher, let me emphasize I like your posts. Particularly the ones from last night where you provided info about the composites and the probable disguise Cooper wore.

You don't need all the specifics regarding your suspect and the night of the skyjacking. Like what road and exit he took or how/where he buried the money. Those inevitably implode, even if your suspect is the correct perpetrator. Make one wrong guess and it's the domino effect with everything wrong after that.

Notice I never guess how McCoy made it back to Las Vegas. I have no clue. Just that he was there within 26 hours, when the collect call was placed. I would guess he caught a plane but hitching a ride(s) isn't out of the question. Nor help from a relative. I've never even considered putting together a scenario since I have zero available details.

Your basic info regarding your suspect is plenty, if you are going to present the theory to authorities. Location, background, age, appearance, motivation, related skills, anything suspicious afterwards. They can take it from there. I would leave out all the creative guesswork, especially in the initial contact.

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 10:14 PM

This is a paste job of post #8 in my original Richard McCoy thread on this forum. I thought that would be the primary DB Cooper thread but this has taken over, so I'll copy the info here. Most of it does not appear in this thread:

The D.B Cooper/Richard McCoy similarities

*Both skyjackers used small-aircraft FAA flight-plan forms to send typewritten instructions to the pilot's cabin designating flight path, altitude, flap settings, and speed (such as 10,000 feet, landing gear down, flaps lowered to 15 degrees).

Let me stop here for emphasis. That info was not released following the D.B. Cooper jump. And the FBI reportedly has no other record of a hijacker using such forms and being so specific, instead of merely "take me to Cuba" or "give me $200,000 in small bills." What were the odds of Richard McCoy miraculously duplicating D.B. Cooper's detailed and unique method of operation, if the skyjackers were not one in the same?

*Both men instructed that all written materials be returned.

*Both used the exact phrase "No funny stuff!" in their typewritten instructions.

*Both were obviously familiar with aviation, and correctly used the term "interphone" rather than "telephone."

*Both allowed all but one stewardess to deplane with passengers, and instructed the remaining stewardess to sit near him and deliver notes to the pilot.

*Shortly before jumping, both skyjackers ordered the remaining stewardess to turn off all cabin lights and then go forward into the pilot's cabin.

*Both instructed the fuel truck to be in the identical position, to the left of the plane's nose, in open view approximately 100 feet from the plane.

*Both wore a dark-brown business suit, white shirt, and tie.

*Both skyjackers sat in the identical place in the plane, the last row of seats in the coach section to the right side of the aisle.

*Both wore large, mirrored, dark reflector or wraparound sunglasses at least part of the time.

*Both demanded four parachutes, and made specific requests that indicated they were familiar with military chutes and how they were packed.

*Witnesses described D.B. Cooper as olive-complected, possibly Spanish, generally between 30 and 50. Approximately 5'10" and weighing 160-170 pounds. He had short black shiny hair, probably a wig, with sideburns below his earlobes and large protruding ears.

Richard McCoy was pegged at 5'10" and 170 pounds, generally in his late 20s to mid-40s. McCoy wore a dark wig, with a headband underneath to partially suppress his protruding ears. He had heavy, dark makeup and dark mascara on his long sideburns and mustache. Several witnesses thought him Spanish. (When arrested just days after the second skyjacking, McCoy was 29 yeards old, 5'10" and 170 pounds. With a receding hairline, a wiry look and some hardness to his face, McCoy appears much older -- 40ish to me -- in every picture in the book).

*Both skyjackers tried to secure the money bag to their bodies, and used the specialized term "D rings" when describing what they needed to fasten the bag.

*Both skyjackers demanded a specific flight route that paralleled a major north-south interstate freeway -- Cooper had Interstate 5 and the lights of Vancouver, Washington and Portland, Oregon to orient himself while jumping, while McCoy had Interstate 15 and the lights of Provo, Utah plus Utah Lake for bearings.

*A patched letter, using words and sentences clipped from magazines, was sent to the Los Angeles Times in December 1971, saying: "I got away with it, as I knew I would, and will never be caught by the FBI -- signed D.B. Cooper." The day the letter was postmarked in Los Angeles, Richard McCoy was there with the Utah Air National Guard unit.

*Following McCoy's arrest, the FBI found newspaper articles about Cooper in McCoy's green Volkswagen and a file of Cooper clippings in his home.

*Between November 25, 1970 and April 5, 1972, Richard McCoy had his Volkswagen serviced at Peterson Motors in Provo. Each time the vehicle was repaired or serviced, a conscientious mechanic recorded the mileage. McCoy's mileage was very consistent, averaging 33 1/2 miles per day. Only between the visits of October 30, 1971 and November 30, 1971 was there a significant increase, accounting for an additional 860 miles than would be projected. The round-trip drive from Provo to Las Vegas was approximately 820 miles. And the D.B. Cooper flight was on November 24, 1971.

*D.B. Cooper needed instructions on how to open the aft cabin door and lower the rear stairs. Four months later, Richard McCoy managed all by himself. Gee, I wonder how he knew?

Awsi Dooger

05-28-2006, 11:46 PM

Awsi, you are dead wrong. Do your research before spreading untruths. Cooper handed Florence a handwritten note, in an envelope, to florence to start the hijacking. Read Himmelsbach's book, Tosaw's book, and every other written and verbal communication on this hijacking. Get your facts straight. That first note, which Cooper retreived from Florence after she showed it to Captain Scott and Rataczak was the only written communication from Cooper. All other correspondence from Cooper was oral via conversation with Florence and Tina. They (Florence and Tina) then wrote down his demands or used the interphone to talk to SCott and give Coopers demands. On the other hand, McCoy used typed written instructions on FAA cards, until his last instruction, which he hastily wrote while on the plane, instructing everyone except the flight attendants off the plane. This is the note that McCoy forgot to get back and helped hang himself. Get your facts straight. We can dispute McCoy and my suspect all night, but I will not allow you to distort facts to make McCoy a better suspect. As far as the credit card receipts, I don't have access to all of McCoy's credit card statements. How do you know all of this? Post these receipts on this blog if you have them. If you had a credit card receipt of McCoy's in Portland on November 24, 1971, then you have a better case. Just because someone used his credit card in Las Vegas doesn't mean he is Cooper. Give me a break.

Also, you state McCoy used his credit card in Vegas shortly after 11pm? Is this on the 24th or what day?

Also, I do need to provide how I believe Cooper pulled it off? I will tell you why. Because most people think there is no way Cooper would have known where he was when he jumped. This is rumbish. When you give someone a specific route to fly, at a certain speed and altitude, you know within a few miles either way, a general area of where you are. Given this altitude, it would have be likely Cooper would have known where he was. If Cooper didn't make it, he would have been found within the first week, hanging in a tree or dead on the ground. In addition, everyone believes that the money being found proves Cooper didn't make it. Actually, the contrary is true. The area Cooper is believed to have jumped is nowhere near (it is about 20 miles away) where the money was found, nor is there a water contributory which would rationally explain the monies presence. the simple truth is the money was most likely buried to hide it. Period.

First of all, I noticed you completely ignored the how the FBI places McCoy elsewhere. I'm still waiting for that.

I've posted the credit card info so many times it's ridiculous. McCoy is placed driving to Las Vegas on the morning of the 24th, buying gas in Utah, then no credit card activity for more than 36 hours until he buys gas again in Las Vegas, closest station to the airport. Twenty minutes earlier he makes a collect call from the Tropicana Hotel to his home in Provo.

Yeah, you're another one of these give me a break guys. Popeye's exact phrase was similar; "means very little." McCoy just happened to drive to Las Vegas on the same day, out of thousands of days, that the Cooper event occured. And he did so in the very early morning hours, instead of waiting for a sensible time. And there is no record of a hotel receipt, or anything at all until 10:41 PM a night later. Just happened that way. Maybe he was following the DB Cooper case on the radio and couldn't be bothered with anything else, like the reason he went to Las Vegas in the first place. :lol: :lol: :lol:

No, McCoy wasn't stupid enough to use his credit card in Portland. He was stupid enough to leave his tie and tie clasp on the plane, identified by his relatives. I noticed you didn't tackle that aspect, either. Popepe does the same thing. All the inconvenient aspects pointing smack at McCoy are hysterically ignored by the nay sayers.

I've read all the relevant books. Most of them more than a decade ago. They were all frantic looney tune garbage until I came across Real McCoy. Frankly, the other books were similar to the bizarre theories proposed here, page after page of wild speculation, and inevitably a remarkable detour from basic probability.

Do any of you realize the significance of McCoy undeniably committing a near-identical event, and just four months removed? Obviously not and it's hysterical. My guy proved he could do it and did do it. The mindset and the capability. Meanwhile, others want to grasp suspects out of thin air and assign all the same to them. It's like picking a guy out of a crowd and pretending he's the same as an NFL quarterback, or a mass murderer, whatever level you want. "No, he already did it once. Last time, I think it was that guy, the one leaning against the rock." Seriously, I know I get arrogant regarding this subject. But the denyers of this particular aspect of this story, this paragraph, are the ones where I would like to bet against their every opinion. It could not be more basic or high percentage.

Tosaw spends his time turning over rocks, still looking for Cooper's bones in the woods. He's now so old he hires others to turn over the rocks. Yeah, I'm going to rely on him. Himmelsbach is a foul mouthed fraud who wasn't even competent enough to determine the correct flight path of the plane. Even though it was his job. Let me repeat that, HIS JOB. He wasn't a canary salesman moonlighting for the FBI. It was his assignment and he totally botched the most important aspect, the WHERE, never even asking the basic question of the pilot himself.

Big hint, dbcoopercatcher. You have to properly handicap the source before you put weight in their info.

Meanwhile, this is the background of the Real McCoy book:

"In 1986, I filed a lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act, asking the federal court to require William Webster, director of the FBI, and Edwin Meese, the attorney general of the United States, to release connecting material from the Richard McCoy and DB Cooper files. Some things, after almost 20 years, had been destroyed by routine purgings of the file at the legal, ten-year mark. Other items had unnacountably been lost. our search for these materials is part of the story. Among the many documents in the files are transcripts of FBI interviews; correspondence with the Department of Justice and with the FBI agencies in Utah, Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, and Virginia; reports of FBI laboratory results, copies of telegrams and teletypes among FBI offices; Air National Guard duty rosters; and searches of newspaper files in six states. Transcripts of the trial, appeals, and private correspondence with agents who worked both cases are part of the documentation that buttresses our reconstruction. Nor is that all. Calame and I, over the past five years, have also conducted over 180 hours of taped or transcribed interviews with agents, friends of McCoy, and others directly involved in both cases."

Pardon me if I prefer to rely on that approach. Especially since both men were also involved in the initial investigation.

The Real McCoy book states the initial envelope was typed on the outside. There may have been a hand written initial note. That is what I've read elsewhere, many sources. I tend to believe it. The Real McCoy book doesn't say so either way. But the book specifically mentions the typed federal aviation form listing the instructions, following Vector 23 among other specifics. I'm always defaulting to their version, since they are the only source capable of looking at the big picture, and not manufacturing skyjackers on the grassy knoll.

New Brandon

05-28-2006, 11:57 PM

Popeye Doyle

05-29-2006, 12:05 AM

Awsi,

Why do you quote 1 (count 'em "ONE") book like it was the Bible? Why are you so convinced that that information from 1 source is unbiased and absolutely true beyond any other?

Popeye Doyle

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 12:47 AM

the reason the FBI found clippings of the Cooper heist in Mccoy's car when he was captured is simple. McCoy saved every article on the Cooper hijacking because the specifics of the hijackings were in the articles. If you are going to duplicate somebody else's crime, you need to educate yourself on their MO. If you commit a crime, the last thing you want to do is save articles about the crime. You were there, why would you need to know what happened? what you forgot to mention is the most important. Cooper needed to smoke and drink on the first hijacking which lasted only four and 1/2 hours, yet on the Mccoy hijacking, he never asked for a drink or smoked during a much longer heist which lasted over 6 hours.

Every similarity you quoted between the two hijackings that is accurate, was public knowledge via television or print.

Your theory totally disregards the following.

The FBI investigated McCoy
florence states McCoy is not Cooper
The FBI never found any items, money, notes, briefcase, etc. in Mccoy's house from the Cooper case yet found the fake grenade and marked money from McCoys crime
VanIeperen states Mccoy was a copycat
Why didn't Mccoy's wife, after McCoy had died, come forward and admit Mccoy was guilty. His wife knew his whereabouts and was in one the hijacking in Utah. She certainly would have known about the Oregon case and could have used the reward money from the Cooper case?
Mccoy used typewritten demands and Cooper used one handwritten
McCoy never spoke. Cooper gave countless demands and talked with Tina and Florence.
McCoy kept articles on the Cooper case so he could duplicate the crime.
McCoy never ordered a drink or smoked on his crime. This a huge difference that you can not explain.
Every similarity between Cooper and McCoy was public knowledge.

One more time, show me where the FBI places McCoy on the 24th. You make the claim, then all you do is say they investigated him. What substance! :lol:

Actually, you're right. The Real McCoy book was written by former FBI agents. The old early '90s show, "FBI; The Untold Stories," did a feature on the McCoy skyjacking and ended the program with a reference to the Cooper event and said many in the FBI concluded McCoy's version was so well executed it demonstrated McCoy had probably done it before.

Stop loading this board with garbage. A preposterous homemade suspect and no understanding of probability is one thing. Your hack job edit of the previous post is quite another.

McCoy never spoke. :lol: You obviously haven't watched the Discovery Channel episode or read even the most basic accounts. McCoy used the convict, William Coggin, as the courier. He told Coggin it was his lucky day and that his face would be all over the news. Coggin testified against McCoy at the trial.

You're getting so desperate in denial you mention the clippings and the drink/smoke aspect both in your summary paragraph and in the individual items below. Yeah, it's a monumental difference, not asking for a drink. So tell me about your suspect, dbcoopercatcher. Does he prefer Raleigh cigarettes? If not, I guess he's eliminated.:lol: :lol:

"Every similarity you quoted between the two hijackings that is accurate, was public knowledge via television or print." More rubbush. Both Cooper and McCoy used small aircraft FAA flight plan forms to send instructions to the pilot's cabin designating flight path, altitude, flap settings, and speed. McCoy couldn't have known that since it was never released to the media. That is from Jim Thiesen, an investigator originally assigned to the Cooper skyjacking. Many other aspects were not known as well, such as the use of terms like interphone instead of telephone and the specific relationship the skyjacker demanded of the fuel truck and the plane.

The Cooper case was four months earlier. McCoy had to make it back to Las Vegas after jumping into Oregon. You really think he was toting all the memorabilia from that leap with him, to the point it would be in his house in April? Or do you think he might have disposed of it since he had to take a plane or catch a ride back to Vegas? Common sense, please.

Florence gets a lot of publicity around here all of a sudden. The Real McCoy book basically dismisses her, saying Tina Mucklow spent much more time with McCoy and Mucklow "was the brains." Regardless, Florence was on one flight, not both. She was shown a picture of several pictures of McCoy. Wow. Let's base our conclusions on that.

Van Ieperen made a matter of fact guess that McCoy saw what Cooper did and copied it. He probably never considered McCoy as being Cooper.

Karen McCoy refuses to allow information released via the Freedom of Information Act. What is she afraid of? Actually, I can understand wanting to protect her children from unwanted publicity and distancing herself from the event. But to suggest she would come forward and say, "hey, he did that one also, what do I win?" is ludicrous, to use a favorite UM term.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 01:33 AM

Awsi,

Why do you quote 1 (count 'em "ONE") book like it was the Bible? Why are you so convinced that that information from 1 source is unbiased and absolutely true beyond any other?

Popeye Doyle

Comparison shopping, Popeye. I read all the books and watched the shows in the '80s, including some garbage movies, and nothing threatened to provide a logical account of what happened. It was all scattergun guesswork. I'm good at isolating the most likely solution, always have been. Normally it's the simple explanation. You know, once in a while the guy standing over the body with the gun in his hand is actually the guilty party. You won't find that opinion very often on the internet, where everything is possible and the most bizarre, against-all-odds solution is usually embraced.

I didn't know much about McCoy until that "FBI; The Untold Stories" episode focused on him and mentioned the Cooper possibility. I knew that show had weight since the FBI cooperated in producing it and supplying info. Then I saw the Discovery Channel episode years later, which concluded with the picture of the specific items left on the McCoy plane, ones tied to MyCoy via identification of two of his relatives. Now we're getting somewhere. I found the book online and bought it. I had no idea McCoy had made an extremely suspicious trip on the same day of the Cooper event. That all but clinched the case for me, along with the remarkable physical similarity.

I'm not one to spend time making sure every detail can be explained. They can't. Especially when we're dealing with second and third hand and no doubt incomplete or innacurate data. I try to envision the big picture and make the most likely conclusion. Here, it's one man doing it twice. The book filled in much more than I ever needed. The professional tone and approach of the book provided the trust level. Almost every time I had a question in my mind, it was answered a page or two later. I do wish they had focused more on the DB Cooper jump. It earns only a few pages, admittedly pathetic.

I would like another book. Several. TV show(s). Contact with the principles. I tried a few weeks ago with no reply. I'm most interested in where the FBI, or a segment of the FBI, places McCoy on November 24. They must reject the credit card info, and their own internal memo, to do so.

But right now I'm amazed there is so much debate. Here are the basics, as I see them:

* McCoy did the same thing four months later. The ultimate trump card.

* McCoy can't be eliminated via physical characteristics, just the opposite

* McCoy can't be eliminated via location on the day of the Cooper event. In fact, the strangest and most otherwise unexplainable trip of his life occurs on that same day, backed up by physical evidence in the credit card receipts

* The money was apparently lost in the original event, explaining a need for a rerun

You know, there were some unfortunate truths to this case that could have made an instant identification, or lack of one, possible. The magazines Cooper flipped through were not properly fingerprinted. The stewardesses didn't save anything like a note that could have held the same. The airlines used to eliminate their flight records after 90 days, which was about a month less than the time lag between the two skyjackings. A simple check of the Las Vegas to Portland flights on the 24th could have revealed a list of names to be checked. No IDs at that time but a strange name that couldn't be verified could have been an indication it was McCoy.

I shouldn't get so worked up and confrontational here. It just seems like a non-issue, like asking whether O.J. was guilty.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 02:05 AM

Popeye, one other thing I neglected to mention about the Real McCoy book, that I appreciated beyond description. It was the first book or account that didn't focus to ludicrous extreme on the ground, the area where Cooper landed. There might have been a few paragraphs, tops.

I want to know who got on the darn plane, not random guesswork regarding whether he splattered or what he did on the ground if he survived. Every other book went into maddening speculation, and once I remember screaming it was more of a forestry lesson than a book about a skyjacking. Even in this thread recently we've had at least two mentions of getting stuck in a tree.

That's apparently the elusive legend aspect of this case, at night in a storm over a forest. Let's say McCoy had jumped over Provo first, on a clear night using the name Cooper and never being identified. I guarantee the case wouldn't have the same impact or longstanding lore, without all those trees and rivers and elements.

Plus, Himmelsbach would have had much less chance to get it wrong. I'm mostly confident he would have been able to ask, "uh, was there a city where he jumped?"

Popeye Doyle

05-29-2006, 01:37 PM

That's apparently the elusive legend aspect of this case, at night in a storm over a forest. Let's say McCoy had jumped over Provo first, on a clear night using the name Cooper and never being identified. I guarantee the case wouldn't have the same impact or longstanding lore, without all those trees and rivers and elements.

The barren forests and lightning storm certainly contribute to the legend but the fact that a man got onto a plane and pulled this off and 30 years later we're still trying to figure out who he is is mind-boggling. That's the "elusive legend". Dead or alive you've got to admit that this type of thing is rare. Think about it. Even the first attempt at the WTC (which failed) the authorities eventually had the suspects. They may not have caught them but they eventually figured out who they were. Same goes for the subway bombings in London etc etc. This is why this is just bizzare.

Let's for arguement's sake say that Cooper is not McCoy. This person had a life and had to have some family somewhere etc. Who was he? I still believe that if Cooper didn't survive... SOMEWHERE SOMEONE whould have come forth and said that a relative etc that matches that description/composite etc disappeared and was never heard from again. Actually this probably did happen as there are always wacko's out there, but realistically speaking. Wouldn't prove anything conclusively but we might have a viable suspect. This is why I believe that Cooper survived the jump. I also find Catcher's theroy/info about the Tena's bar find fascinating. Everything that's been said about that find, why wouldn't the body and equipment (chute, straps, hooks,clips, bag etc) which all have greater durability than some paper/cloth money have been found? Where was the rest of the money? I think that it's very possible that it was recovered and what was found was the remainder which for whatever reason Cooper couldn't locate on the roundup.

Popeye Doyle

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 06:28 PM

Awsi, New Brandon and Popeye

First of all, thanks New Brandon and Popeye for an unbiased opinion. Awsi, I had a feeling that you were somehow associated with the book or were in fact Calame or Rhodes. Given this, how can you have an unbiased opinion? I don't think there is anything that would convince you that Mccoy was not Cooper. I really don't. You have made up your mind. Trust me, I think Mccoy is a great suspect and I also believe him and Cooper had similar backgrounds. But, when different independent sources, such as the FBI, Van Ieperen and Florence, and McCoy's wife make it clear Mccoy didn't commit the crime, I have to start looking elsewhere unless there is more evidence to show McCoy did in fact commit this crime. Why not look up tina and talk to her and show her a picture of Mccoy? I knew when you mentioned those credit card receipts that you were either lying or were in fact tied to Callame or Rhodes.

dbcoopercatcher, you are a nutcase. There is no other way to state it. I have never encountered anyone, even on the wacko internet, who makes such absurd conclusions with no basis in fact or logic.

So, you know I'm Rhodes or Calame or are tied to them. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yeah, that's obvious from my other posts on this board. Or other boards. Why don't you Google my user name and see what I've posted elsewhere. It's all DB Cooper all the time. I'm 85 years old and I live in Utah.:lol: :lol:

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 06:48 PM

Why not look up tina and talk to her and show her a picture of Mccoy?

You claim to have read the Real McCoy book but there's absolutely no evidence of it. Rhodes specifically details how he contacted Tina Mucklow in a convent, where she had withdrawn from the world after the Cooper flight as Sister Mary Alice. She said she remembered nothing from that night and from the course of the conversation Rhodes decided it was pointless to continue, or to send her pictures of McCoy.

I got that smack from the book, page 124.

In my previous post I called you a nutcase. I'm not going to delete or alter that because your post flat out stated you knew I was either lying about the credit card receipts or was associated with Calame or Rhodes, if not actually one of them. It is so asinine I can't believe I'm commenting further. You claim to do research then you desperately flail with a comment like that, simply because I have a strong opinion on this case and it doesn't match yours. Popeye has been here for months and he disagrees with me as well, but he has never asserted anything other than I rely too much on one book, which I can respect. Calling me a liar or asserting I'm hopelessly biased due to connection with the authors is not appropriate.

The credit card receipts are further evidence you never read the book, or not carefully. They are mentioned more than once, including the specific credit card number. They are a highlight of the evidence indicating McCoy may have been Cooper.

I did find the reason Florence wouldn't remember the typed aviation form. She wasn't on the plane at the time. Cooper gave the typed aviation form to Tina Mucklow during the second leg of the flight, long after Florence and another stewardess were allowed to leave the plane when it landed in Seattle to pick up the money and parachutes.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 07:02 PM

By the way, you want me to show you where the FBI puts Mccoy in la. I will tell you. There is a special which aired on the history channel in which Himmelbach is interviewed. In this show, Himmelsbach states that McCoy was thoroughly checked out by the FBI and was shown to be with his national guard unit in LA. That is right from the man responsble for the Cooper investigation. I am sure that you will somehow state that Himmelsbach is wrong or something. But, that show and statement speaks for itself.

If all you have is Himmelsbach you have nothing.

Go back to my post on the matter, just a day or two ago. The National Guard duty had a very flexible schedule. That is demonstrated several times throughout the book. In fact, McCoy apparently took advantage of the same thing three weeks earlier when he made a practice run on the Las Vegas to Portland route, registering at the Westward Ho on the Strip when he was given several days to perform a National Guard task.

Actually, this sounds exactly like Ralph Himmelsbach caliber. He probably did the same half-ass sloppy job checking into the National Guard aspect as he did the path of the plane, not realizing the dates he was given were a timetable to complete a certain number of days, not mandatory attendance every day.

Here's the paragraph again: "Richard's records at Brigham Young University confirmed that he finished his last class before the Thanksgiving break at 9:30 AM Tuesday, 23 November. The next day, day of the hijacking, he was supposed to be on National Guard duty, but he wasn't. The duty roster showed that Richard attended four drills the week before 20 November and five drills three weeks later, 12-16 December 1971. He wasn't assigned to attend particular drills -- just so many within a given time period -- and could work the details out for himself. And he'd worked completely around the week of the D.B. Cooper hijacking."

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 07:33 PM

Do any of the credit card receipts from November include airline flights? You say Mccoy was smart enough not to use his credit card in Portland, then why would he use it in Las Vegas? All McCoy had to do was pay cash for his gas and nobody would have known he was out of town. Then, McCoy calls home via a collect call, this doesn't sound like a guy who wants to conceal that he is out of town. It seems to me McCoy would have used cash to pay for gas and phone calls to not leave a trail. Especially if his alibi was going to be that he was with his wife. Did you ever think that maybe McCoy had a fight with his wife or just went away for a few days on vacation? Or am I speculating on this too?

By the way, you mentioned McCoy bought gas in Vegas by the airport and made a call from the Tropicana. The airport is within a couple of miles of the strip and Tropicana.

That's by far the best set of comments I've seen from you. Obviously it would have been preferable to pay by cash throughout. I doubt they could have traced McCoy to Las Vegas, or even out of town on those days, minus the credit card activity. My guess would be fairly basic; he was going so far out of his way to conceal the trip to Portland he wasn't worried about credit card activity 400 miles south of Provo. And it worked, if you believe McCoy was Cooper. The FBI would never have linked McCoy to the Cooper event if he hadn't done it again and been caught. At that point McCoy becomes the focus so naturally they check everything in his recent past, including and especially the days of the Cooper jump. McCoy probably was strapped for cash and maybe had enough only for the plane flight to Portland. We don't know his credit standing or how much of a cash advance he could have gotten. Also, you would think he had to save cash to get back to Las Vegas after jumping. He assumes he will have $200,000, of course, but I've got to believe he keeps cash in reserve, just in case. He knows he can't use his credit card in that area after making the jump.

I'll listen to another explanation of the trip to Las Vegas. But it better special. Especially since they couldn't find a hotel registration, credit card or otherwise, for the night of the 24th. Or any other credit card activity at all until 10:41 PM on the 25th. Plus the date matching the Cooper jump. That's too much of a coincidence for me.

Yes, the Tropicana is the closest hotel to the airport and the gas station he used was the closest to the airport also. That lends to the theory McCoy flew back on the night of the 25th, or caught a ride back, and then picked up his car at the airport. He called home to let them know he made it back and the basic story. Then he fills up and heads home.

Empty handed, of course. The one intriguing aspect the book doesn't address, nor in this thread so far, is what was McCoy's plan if he had landed with the $200,000? He can't head back to Las Vegas with it by plane. The other options would be concealing it in the drop area, or driving back to Las Vegas. I'm guessing he changed his plans significantly after losing the money.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 08:03 PM

Yo awsi,

McCoy lived in Provo in 1971. the FBI states he was in LA on the 24th, you have receipts McCoy was in Vegas on the 25th. Did you ever think that maybe McCoy was driving home from LA after doing his national guard time. If you look at a map, the most direct and just about only way to get from Provo to LA, via an automobile, is to drive through Vegas. Maybe the FBI and your receipts are both correct. Las Vegas is only about 250 miles from LA. This could explain why McCoy was in VEgas. Or you could just attack me personally.

Look, you need to catch up on this case, specifically this thread and the other one I posted three years ago, titled "Richard Floyd McCoy was DB Cooper, IMO," or something like that. It's on page 3 or 4 now. Maybe I'll bump it.

You keep asking things that have already been specifically addressed. In fact, I referred to this just the other day, that there wasn't enough extra mileage on his car to indicate a drive to Los Angeles. The mileage on McCoy's car was carefully tallied by his mechanic in Provo, Peterson Motors. It was a remarkably consistent daily average from November 1970 until April 1972, 17 months.

Only during the period of the Cooper event did it vary significantly, suddenly with 860 more miles than normal. The round trip to Las Vegas would be 820 miles. So, if you want to add the 500+ miles more to Los Angeles and back, that means suddenly McCoy drove significantly less miles per day than normal, other than the extra 1360+ miles he added on that trip. Doesn't make sense. Plus, why use his credit card only in Utah and Las Vegas? If he's driving to Los Angeles where is the gas receipt from Barstow or whatever? I suppose you could argue he suddenly decided to pay by cash. Or took some other form of transportation to Los Angeles, including a plane.

But all of that stretches basic probability, since you want us to believe he was headed to Los Angeles for National Guard duty. So he spends all day on Wednesday heading to Los Angeles, taking advantage of his first day of Thanksgiving break by deciding to travel nearly 700 miles. And for what, National Guard duty? Then the next day is Thanksgiving. Did he have one day of National Guard duty on Thanksgiving Day itself, then head back to Las Vegas that same night?

The McCoy as Cooper specifics are not available elsewhere on the internet. I don't really blame you for being skeptical about some aspects, including the credit card receipts. Go back in this thread and you will find one of my posts that quotes an entire first page of a then-secret NORJAK memo detailing the trip McCoy made to Las Vegas on the 24th.

Also, I found a NORJAK memo in the Real McCoy book that states the first note was handwritten and given to Florence, exactly as you said. The book is sloppy in that regard, not including the memo in the chapter about the Cooper jump. It is tucked in an obscure area late in the book.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 08:08 PM

First of all, you have claimed to be friends with Callame.

Show me where I claimed to have any connection to Russell Calame. This should be fun.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 08:22 PM

I did say you are spreading untruths, such as stating Cooper used FAA cards, which he never did. Yes, I have read Callame's book a few times about four or five years ago.

Wrong again. Cooper did use at least one FAA form, a typed version handed to Tina Mucklow during the second stage of the flight. That was after Florence Schaffner was let off the plane, so if you talked to her or she gave a statement she understandably wouldn't know anything about it.

Yourself and Popeye want everything to be identical. Newsflash: the whole idea was for the second skyjacking NOT to be identical. It was a flop. He lost the loot.

So naturally you evolve and improve the second time around. McCoy decided on typed instructions throughout, instead of reciting his demands. He had a superior method of securing the bag of money. He knew how to lower the back stairs without assistance. He apparently wore more makeup and disguise but decided not to drink or smoke. Perhaps he thought those two forced aspects of the first flight didn't help him and contributed to his problems in losing the money. That's pure speculation but you and Popeye make a habit of that.

We don't know the details, not as much as we think we do. I'm reyling on the basics: the guy who undeniably did if later, and looks the same as the composite, and had a weird trip on November 24th, was also DB Cooper but lost the money, requiring a replay. Keep it simple, stupid. The stupid is me. You guys can be brilliant like Himmelsbach and Tosaw, and find a new suspect, or bones in the woods.

Popeye Doyle

05-29-2006, 08:34 PM

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 08:54 PM

Other points. You keep on mentioning Mccoy's family identifying this tie Cooper left. Did his tie have his name or initails monogramed on it. Do you really think this is the only tie in the world that looks like this? I thought Mccoy's wife states that her husband was not Cooper. then what family member is stating the tie left by Cooper is McCoy's? Whenever somebody disagrees with you, you simply shoot down their character. Florence is not the brains, the FBI doesn't know what they are doing, Himmelsbach is wrong, Van Ieperan never thought of that.

The mother-in-law and sister-in-law immediately identified the tie and tie clasp. The wife would not testify against McCoy.

Now you want a name or monogramed initials. Why not an IOU, saying I'll get the $200,000 back to you ASAP?:lol:

The sister-in-law, Denise Burns, lived with McCoy. So she would know his wardrobe. This is the section of the book. You said you read the book four or five times, so this shoudn't be necessary:

"The mother-in-law, Mildred Burns, right off the bat identifies it as richard's without even a second look. Then I bring Denise in and she studie it like she's sixing to buy it. Then she looks over at me and says, "That's Richard's tie, and that's Richard McCoy's oearltie clasp, so what are you guys doing with it? I tell her -- now listen to this -- I tell her, "Well, Denise, this ohotograph is of the tie and tie clasp D.B. Cooper left behind on the plane he hijacked up in Portland. I tell her how Cooper takes it off before he jumps and puts it in one of the seat pockets."

"What'd she say about that?"

"Breaks down and starts crying," Thiesen says. "Well, wherever you got it from,' Denise says, 'that's Richard's! He always wore that tie clasp when he went somewhere."

The author of the book wrote Tina was the one with the brains. I think it was in quotes, as if someone told them that at the time. I don't criticize Van Ieperen at all, just I don't think he ever considered McCoy pulled the Cooper jump so Van Ieperen naturally assigned McCoy's act as a copycat. I'd like to know if he ever changed his mind or considered the issue.

I thought Himmelsbach's book was rubbish, the worst of the lot. Ludicrous darts out of thin air. Stuff like he died on a creek bead and that 's why the money washed downstream. Simpleton to the max. And that was before I knew he never adequately questioned the captain regarding the flight path, and would never have known if the pilot hadn't volunteered the info on his retirement day. Himmelsbach uses curse words to describe Cooper. The FBI should be cursing themselves for ever hiring such a talentless hack.

If you want to know about the FBI, here's another quote from the book, regarding whether McCoy was investigated as being Cooper:

"In the Cooper-McCoy hijacking cases, no one from the FBI ever interviewed Richard McCoy, a prime suspect. No one, to my knowledge, ever asked Karen McCopy those same questions, either."

Bernie Rhodes inteviewed McCoy twice in regard to the skyjacking he was convicted of, and slipped in some Cooper-related questions as I've detailed earlier in this thread, but it was never his job to find out if McCoy was Cooper. In fact, he was restricted from doing so via the specifics of his role, and the judge's strict rules.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 09:13 PM

BINGO! That's exactly why Bugsy Segal built Vegas...to attract soldiers on their way home. That would also explain Awsi's theory about a lack of CC activity. How are you going to use an C.C. on Bivouac? He called home because he got to a pay phone ( no cell phones in 72).

Talk about the most viable theory, that makes much more sense than assuming he'd been in Portland returning from a sky jacking. Not only is it a stretch with no evidence, it is absolutely necessary (thin as it is) to keep McCoy as a suspect in the Cooper jacking as well as an incompetent FBI.
No wonder that book isn't doing well.

Now we can get on with the search for Cooper. I've ordered the Tosaw book from Amazon. A very reasonable $18. Can't wait to read it. I'd read the Bernie's (Awsi's??) book but not for $37. I'm still trying to find a 'brary that has it.

I'm also interested in Catcher's suspect. Will you keep us informed?

Popeye Doyle

I'm trying my best not to hit the floor in a seizure of laughter. BINGO?
:lol: :lol:

Popeye, did you even look at my response to this theory? There wasn't enough extra mileage on Cooper's car to account for a trip to Los Angeles.

He would have had to decide to spend all day, his first day of Thanksgiving break, driving maybe 12 hours to Los Angeles. Then you want me to believe he has exactly ONE day of National Guard duty, on Thanksgiving Day itself, in Los Angeles before returning to Las Vegas and then unveiling his credit card again.

I thought of this aspect years ago. It doesn't work. If McCoy had to do National Guard duty in Los Angeles, he would have gotten rid of all the required days in short order, not one day then return to Las Vegas. Plus, look at my post on the National Guard duty records. They don't show McCoy on duty at all that week.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 09:22 PM

Awsi,

You keep coming up with cooper using FAA cards. Where are you getting this information? It never happened. Also, Cooper did not, I repeat did not ask for v-23. cooper stated to fly to Mexico City, at or below 10,000 feet, gear down, flaps down, at 170 knots. Captain Scott and FAA and Northwest Airlines told Cooper the plane did not have range. Cooper was asked if refueling in San Francisco or LA would be ok, Cooper said no, these cities are to big, captain Scott asked about Reno and Cooper did not disagree. The captain and FAA then decided to use v-23. Conclusion, Cooper duped the captain into flying the route he wanted without the captain knowing that Cooper was familar with the flight patterns in the northwest. cooper was a private pilot in the area and did not want to show his cards and have the authorities figure out that Cooper had the flight patterns memormized due to using them. Awsi, if you have 100% evidence that Cooper used FAA flight plans, I want to see it. Everybody else disagrees with you. You and I were not on the flight. Only Captain Scott(who is dead), William Rataczak (who is alive in Minnesota) and the FBI and Tina know for sure. I know what I have read and that is Cooper did not use FAA cards. This is from everyone.

I've quoted the Real McCoy book. It is specifically mentioned more than once, regarding the typed small-aircraft FAA flight plans. The source is Jim Theisen and he seems very thourough and reliable, based on the way he's quoted and presented in the book. Theisen says the FAA info wasn't released to the media so McCoy couldn't have known. Maybe you could find him and talk to him. Zabasearch.com is a good source.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 09:34 PM

Awsi, assuming your records from the auto mechanic are correct, the McCoy's had two cars back in 1971. You don't know for sure that McCoy was using the same car that was serviced for his trip to Vegas.

It is one car, a Volkswagen with North Carolina license plate #SA 1334. The credit card sales slip from November 25 at 11 PM in Las Vegas included that license plate number, written down by the attendant. Also McCoy's verified signature. It is the same vehicle the mechanic at Peterson Motors diligently wrote down the exact mileage every time he brought it in. McCoy consistently averaged about 33.5 miles per day other than the period of the trip to Las Vegas, in which there were 860 more miles than would have been predicted.

They also had a Plymouth Fury, in fact that car was used to take McCoy to the airport for the second skyjacking. I'm confident the book was specific to checking the one car, the Volkswagen, since it was Richard's car and the one driven to Las Vegas.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 09:50 PM

Awsi, I just want to know how you think mccoy pulled off the Cooper heist. Basically, you are saying McCoy must have left his house before 3am on the 24th, driven eight hours to Vegas, arrived at the airport by 11am, flew to Portland and checked in by 2pm. Boarded the flight at 2:50 and jumped at 8:13. Landed and somehow made it to the airport the next day by noon to catch a flight back to Vegas. The same airport which would have been crawling with FBI agents who were looking at every man traveling by himself. Sounds like a risky plan.

Please, I want to hear how you think Mccoy pulled it off. You must have a theory.

Exactly. That's basically the timeline and requirements. I don't have a specific theory.

He probably drove very fast, as fast as the Volks could take him, so less than 8 hours. It's 410 miles but the road was partially under construction. No traffic at that hour. I don't know when he left Provo. Could have been earlier, but not much later than you suggest.

I also don't know when the flights to Portland left. You would think they would have kept the flight schedules, if not the records of passengers.These are all things I would ask of the authors, or panel members if some TV show would do a feature on this case. I've written to shows like Larry King and Dateline but they ignore me.

He had 26 hours to make it to Las Vegas after making the jump. I have no idea if he drove or flew. Perhaps some of both. There had to be some type of plan beforehand. Then he could change it once he lost the money during the jump. He hid the cash after the second jump but you wonder if that was the idea before the first one? I strongly doubt it. he lived in Provo so heading back to the Pacific Northwest makes no sense, either geographically or in terms of safety. I think he was going to nonchalantly haul the cash back to Las Vegas and then leave whenever he wanted. It was a holiday weekend so he had until Sunday night. Just because he made it back to Las Vegas late on the 25th without the money didn't mean that was his intention if the skyjacking had gone as planned. McCoy probably thought he would be laughing like hell slowly making it back to his car in Las Vegas while the FBI goofs were searching the woods.

There was a quote from Denise Burns that McCoy wanted her to come pick him up in the middle of the Nevada desert, months before the one they caught him on. If you search this thread you'll find that quote.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 09:57 PM

Awsi, We both agree that this investigation was botched. I could not agree more. Himmelsbach's theories about the Washougal are total garbage. Himmelsbach keeps on contradicting himself. In on interview, he states that Cooper must have died and the money washed up, then he states that Duane Weber is a good suspect. Hello.

Another area in which the investigation was screwed up is the search of the plane. A good search of the plane would have taken days, not nine hours. the FBI should have removed all of the seats and carpet around where Cooper was sitting. It is almost impossible not to lose a hair or fibers from his suit while sitting in a seat for five hours.

Another thing against Himmelsbach's theory about Cooper dying. The placard from the aftstairs was found in 1979 just north of the projected jump area. This placard is about 12 inches by six inches and is found in the middle of the forest. In addition, three packets of money are found buried nowhere near the flight of the plane one year later. Gimme a break. These are the smallest items taken from the plane and the last discovered if Cooper died. Where is the body, the two chutes, the briefcase, the money bag. All of these would have been found. One thing is for sure, Cooper got away.

We'll agree on more than this, although not the basics. Until you come around to the McCoy camp.:lol:

My MO is to pounce on the new posters who deny McCoy as Cooper, especially if they propose something specific that looks incredibly askew from probability. I'm not proud of it but it's fairly obvious, and repeated to the point I can't deny it.

Himmelsbach is the worst I've ever seen. Literally scary the FBI or any major bureau could have someone of that caliber at a major level. You're exactly right, his embracing of a pathetic posthumous publicity seeker like Duane Weber was almost like a parody of an opinion, considering what he argued in his book and elsewhere.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 10:09 PM

Another difference between Cooper and Mccoy. Cooper used dynamite (or road flares which looked like dynamite) to extort while McCoy used a fake grenade and pistol. A major difference Awsi. That is about nine or ten differences in MO, not to mention lack of alcohol and cigarettes.

Also, I stand corrected. I do remember that during the one show, McCoy supposedly did speak to the con when instruciting him to get the money. However, why would Mccoy use his voice during this but yet write down, while on the plane, his request to the flight attendants about getting everyone off the plane except the flight attendants. Either one of the shows is inaccurate or McCoy made a mistake. If he wanted to conceal his voice, he obviously screwed up. Because, all of his instructions, were typed out.

I think those changes were attempts at simplification and impact. Multiple threats instead of one, in terms of the grenade, pistols (the note said multiple) and C-4 explosives.

He also may have decided the oral instructions during the first event were too cumbersome and problematic, requiring the stewardesses to communicate with him repeatedly and jot things down. Way too much potential for error or misinterpretation. The notes were incredibly well thought out and covered virtually every requirement, plus he also had a pad to write down spur of the moment aspects, including communication with the convict. Too bad he failed to retrieve the one note, although it wouldn't have mattered since Van Ieperen fingered him and once you have a specific suspect like that within a few days of the crime the rest is easy, including finding all but 30 bucks in a closet.:lol: :lol:

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 10:18 PM

The barren forests and lightning storm certainly contribute to the legend but the fact that a man got onto a plane and pulled this off and 30 years later we're still trying to figure out who he is is mind-boggling. That's the "elusive legend". Dead or alive you've got to admit that this type of thing is rare. Think about it. Even the first attempt at the WTC (which failed) the authorities eventually had the suspects. They may not have caught them but they eventually figured out who they were. Same goes for the subway bombings in London etc etc. This is why this is just bizzare.

Let's for arguement's sake say that Cooper is not McCoy. This person had a life and had to have some family somewhere etc. Who was he? I still believe that if Cooper didn't survive... SOMEWHERE SOMEONE whould have come forth and said that a relative etc that matches that description/composite etc disappeared and was never heard from again. Actually this probably did happen as there are always wacko's out there, but realistically speaking. Wouldn't prove anything conclusively but we might have a viable suspect. This is why I believe that Cooper survived the jump. I also find Catcher's theroy/info about the Tena's bar find fascinating. Everything that's been said about that find, why wouldn't the body and equipment (chute, straps, hooks,clips, bag etc) which all have greater durability than some paper/cloth money have been found? Where was the rest of the money? I think that it's very possible that it was recovered and what was found was the remainder which for whatever reason Cooper couldn't locate on the roundup.

Popeye Doyle

There are some UM cases where people are killed but no one ever comes forward. Like the couple murdered in North Carolina in maybe '76. They maye have been foreign and that could have been a factor, but otherwise well groomed and middle class, at worse. So it can happen.

Of course, I agree Cooper survived. For three more years.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 10:33 PM

Awsi

I went back and read all of your postings and now know why you shot my down regarding the money which was found on Tena's bar. It is simple. Your argument is that McCoy is Cooper and lost the money the first time. Hence, he had to commit the crime again. I stated that the money on Tena's bar was most likely hidden there by cooper on the night of the crime. Of course, you are going to shoot that down because it goes against your theory. You see, if Cooper was McCoy, all Mccoy had to do was return to Tena's bar to retrieve the buried money and not commit another crime. My theory goes against your theory. You keep going around this issue. It, besides the placard, is the only known evidence from the Cooper case. How did the money end up on Tena's bar in Vancouver Wa? Don't skirt this question. I want an answer. Remember, three seperate packs were touching each other.

I didn't even read your Tena's bar post. Maybe I'll go back and check it out but as I indicated, specific guesswork on aspects like this doesn't interest me at all. Domino effect. You lost me with Cooper driving down the street and listening to the radio.

McCoy lost the money, probably very soon after the jump. I have no idea how the money ended up there, nor how far that was from where McCoy originally jumped or landed. Anyone who tells me it was there all along, or drifted there, that's fine with me. Just as long as it's a simple explanation. It's tons of speculation, the type I don't make on minor aspects.

I'm more intrigued by whether McCoy did retain a small amount of the cash, and washed it in Las Vegas. I have worked in casinos and I can tell you they are incredibly overrated, in terms of security and the count room and overhead cameras, etc. Shows like Las Vegas are laughable, acting like the eyes in the sky catch everything. I could relay one story after another. And we're talking about the late '80s until now. This Cooper event was '71, when I guarantee everything was much less sophisticated. Plus the feds weren't focusing on Las Vegas. I'm not sure McCoy retained any of the money, which goes against the theory of the book, but if he did, washing several thousand in Las Vegas wouldn't have been a problem.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 10:54 PM

Howdy

I think I have a good theory about how and why the money was found at Tena's bar in Vancouver, WA. This is just a guess, as only Cooper knows for sure. My theory is the following. My suspect, (see my previous post), lived in the Portland area and was driving home after landing in the Orchards and Woodland area on the night of the heist. He turned on the radio and heard that the FBI was starting roadblocks in an attempt to find Cooper. Knowing this, I believe my suspect got scared as he approached the bridge on 1-5 heading into Portland. If the FBI had a roadblock at the Oregon side of the i_5 bridge and Cooper had the money in his car, he was caught red handed. Hence, he took the last exit before heading into Oregon which took him on Fourth Plain road which eventually leads into Lower River road. I have actually taken a ride out to this location, actually on the anniversary of Cooper's heist and can tell you that this area is totally deserted. There was not a sole in site for miles in this outlying area. Anyway, this area is known as a local fishing spot (in the summer is quite busy) on the Columbia river. I believe that Cooper had fished in this area before and was aware of the public beach. Cooper had to find a place to hide the money and get rid of evidence, such as the chutes, briefcase, etc. This place provided both. Cooper could throw the chutes and evidence into the Columbia and easily dig a hole with his hands in the sand to hide the money. In addition, burying the money was not only a good hiding place, but also would prevent an electronic tracking device from working had such a device been placed in the money. I believe Cooper quickly dug a hole about 40 feet from the water with his hands and dumped the money into this hole. Afterwards, he marked this position by placing a rock or log onto the spot and threw the evidence into the river (including the empty money bag). Cooper then drove home and waited a few weeks before retreiving the buried money. Upon his return, which was most likely at night, Cooper either didn't count the money or thought he was shorted and mistakenly left three packets (which I believe were held together by a rubber band) behind. If you have ever buried anything in sand, you know this theory is very plausible. If the three packets of twenties were not held together by a rubber band, they would have never been touching each other eight years later. As Tosaw points out, the river was dredged in 1974 and more sand was placed on top of the money and hence the erosion of the sand took until 1980 when the money was found.

I have put a lot of thought into this theory, and quite simply it is the most logical conclusion. If you look at the money which was found in 1980, that money was in excellent shape (considering the time elapsed) and the serial numbers were still legible. this money never hit the Columbia river. The reason the bills were rounded off is because of simple erosion, not from tumbling on the bottom of the river as specualted about from Tosaw in his book. You see, Tosaw's theory is impossible. If the money had tumbled on the bottom of the Columbia river, the money would have been scattered on the beach and in the river. There is no way that the money would have remained in three seperate packets, with each packet touching each other, unless the money was buried in that location. My suspect simply made a mistake in burying the money without a bag or sack. This is critical. If that money was buried at any other time, other than the night of the crime, Cooper would have thought of bringing a bag to place the money and probably would have brought a shovel and buried the money in a remote place in the forest away from the search. I believe hiding the money after the jump was an afterthought. I think Cooper was going to bring the money to his house or work until he heard about the roadblocks. This theory makes the most sense. I agree that it is not a perfect theory, but crimes rarely ever go as planned and Cooper had to think on the run. In addition, Cooper lived on the Columbia river, by the Portland airport, and could have easily retreived the money with his own boat by simply leaving his dock and traveling 12 miles downriver. Hiding the money in this location in my opinion was a clever move down in very stressful time.

I look forward to everyone's response. Be nice.

Well, I read it and that's the most detailed theory I've ever seen, outside the books. I just don't know how you can make the leap of faith from questioning every aspect of the McCoy connection, to using phrases like "most logical conclusion" regarding incredibly complicated and specific claims like this.

I think the money landed in a remote area that wasn't searched, or was somehow concealed if it landed in an area that was searched. The rest of the money eroded or is eroding. My belief in the most basic explanation takes me there and nowhere else.

Awsi Dooger

05-29-2006, 11:18 PM

Awsi, so Cooper didn't listen to the investigation on the radio or a police scanner. Right, but Mccoy did follow the investigation about himself by clipping out newspaper articles. You can't have it both ways.

Those aren't even remotely parallel. The first one speculates in the hours, or maybe minutes, after the jump that Cooper had made it out of the woods, or wherever, and found transportation. Just tooling along. That the radio stations were already blurting specific road blocks. Himmelsbach couldn't figure out where the plane was for the rest of his career, but those radio stations were on top of everything immediately. On a stormy night the road blocks were immediate. Even though it took the authorities to contact the people on the ground, and that night they were being led by people like Himmelsbach, and the crew who couldn't properly dust for fingerprints or save magazines Cooper flipped through.

McCoy had four months to cut out and save the clippings. The story was already legend, and all over the papers and magazines.

Here's a link to the one website which includes major segments of the Real McCoy book. Unfortunately, the site focuses more on the Mormon aspect of McCoy's life, and not the crimes or the link to Cooper, and that is how the segments were selected. The best stuff is generally missing. I contacted the webmaster and he agreed with me McCoy was Cooper, but he did not update with the specific aspects making that case.

The most relevant may be page 164, if you scroll down. It is the first interview with McCoy and he denies having national guard duty on the 24th. He claims he was home, and helping with Thanksgiving dinner the next day. Too bad this link doesn't include the credit card info contradicting McCoy's version. There is choppy editing on this site, making it appear the paragraphs follow each other, when actually they are often far apart in the book itself: http://www.ldsfilm.com/movies/DBCooper.html

Popeye Doyle

05-29-2006, 11:26 PM

My belief in the most basic explanation takes me there and nowhere else.

How does this "belief" and cc receipts from Vegas put McCoy almost 1000 miles away in Portland w/o any evidence? Give me a basic explanation of that. What connection does Vegas have to Portland? It's not as though that's the only place he could catch a flight. I don't see any meat on the bone here.

PD

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 12:03 AM

How does this "belief" and cc receipts from Vegas put McCoy almost 1000 miles away in Portland w/o any evidence? Give me a basic explanation of that. What connection does Vegas have to Portland? It's not as though that's the only place he could catch a flight. I don't see any meat on the bone here.

PD

Day in question = my suspect is doing something incredibly out of the ordinary. Suspicious and unexplainable. That's beyond basic.

The first thing the authorities always ask is, "where were you on the night of the..." McCoy claims he's home. Just look at that link I just provided. The credit card receipts and collect call evidence indicates he's lying. Again, fairly basic. Suspect is lying regarding the day in question, with physical evidence contradicting him.

I never said McCoy chose the most basic route to Portland. It's my theory, not his. :lol: :lol:

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 12:25 AM

Awsi, you are not going to like this, but you and Himmelsbach have the same problem, you have already made up your mind and nothing is going to change it. that is why Himmelsbach screwed up this investigation. Himmelsbach reached a conclusion without getting all of the facts. He assumed that Cooper was an idiot and was not prepared for the jump. Himmelsbach never thought about the idea that maybe Cooper had a pre-determined jumpsite with an accomplice waiting for him on the ground. All Cooper had to do was use a walkie talkie and his brother or friend could have easily told him when to jump and get instructions on where to pick him up. That is assuming there was zero visibility, which there wasn't. This is called tunnel vision.

I agree completely, I have no threat of flexibility on this case. Not without the FBI relocating McCoy on the 24th.

If the credit card info and collect call info is wrong, then I would reconsider. Place McCoy somewhere other than driving to Las Vegas on the 24th. If he had a tame day at home or with the national guard, then I'll pay attention. I'll potentially ignore, or somewhat downplay, the incredibly improbable physical similarity to the Cooper sketch, plus all the similarities in the two events. Even if there were no info on McCoy that day at all, I wouldn't be as certain. That event is what clinches it for me, along with the tie and tie clasp and, of course, the fact he indisputably did the same thing four months later.

Himmelsbach made mistakes, underestimating Cooper, but not just the ones you mentioned. He assumed Cooper was poorly prepared, with loafers on his feet. I've seen quotes from him saying they probably blew off his feet immediately. What a joke. I guarantee he changed and had better protection under his outer clothing than it appeared. Himmelsbach spent the remainder of his career theorizing someone dead in the woods. Meanwhile, Cooper probably spent a couple of hours or less in that area, after landing safely.

Popeye Doyle

05-30-2006, 12:36 AM

I agree completely, I have no threat of flexibility on this case.

Sells books eh Bernie...err...Awsi? Thirty seven is a lil' steep though dontcha think? ;).

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 01:16 AM

Sells books eh Bernie...err...Awsi? Thirty seven is a lil' steep though dontcha think? ;).

If there were two McCoy books I would be quoting both of them, which would be cheap way to be an author of multiple books.:lol:

Popeye, you can't find it for less than $37? Seriously, I paid $18 a few years ago. I think the source I used to buy it is mentioned in that thread titled, "Richard McCoy was DB Cooper, IMO." I bumped it today so it's on the front page again.

Here, I found the paragraph: "If anyone else is interested in the book, I got it directly from the University of Utah Press by calling (801) 272-2211. They charged $18 including shipping. Amazon and other major online sellers were asking several times that amount for this relatively obscure book."

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 01:36 AM

Awsi, You and I agree on just about everything regarding the case, except of course the suspects. Our suspects have similar backgrounds, etc. Why wouldn't you for one minute think that my suspect, being from Portland, would be more likely to pull off the Cooper heist than McCoy. If you were starting from scratch, you would start investigating people who live closer to the crime, then work your way out. It is called the circle theory. for example, McCoy living in Provo, would be a much better suspect than my suspect for the McCoy case. In turn, my suspect should at least be considered as likely, if not more likely given his proximity to the crime. You must admit, living across from the Portland airport and leasing a private plane would have made it much easier and more practical for my suspect not only to scout areas in which to jump, but also to time the route, make a practice run, memorize flight paths, and observe the amount of traffic in the drop zone at various times throughout the night. Let's face it, all of these would have been difficult to accomplish for a guy who lived 1,000 miles away. You even admit that Mccoy only started to skydive without a static line in the fall of 1971. My suspect was a professional skydiver.

I've never read a book on your suspect. Apparently, that's all it takes. :lol:

April 1972. McCoy skyjacked with the same MO. That's always my answer. If you take that away, all the credit card receipts and strange early morning trips and tie clasps mean little to nothing. It's like a major unsolved bank robbery from years ago. I would certainly look first at anyone who commited a near-identical robbery years later and was caught doing it.

I love your enthusiasm for the case. We have forged close to 4 pages of posts in barely more than a day, and more than 200 views of this thread in the same period. There probably would be more regular posters in this thread if I didn't snarl at the McCoy doubters.

Be careful with your suspect. Do you know anything about his whereabouts or actions on that day, or time frame? Was there any indication he suddenly came across a large sum of money that changed his lifestyle? This may seem like a fun and intriguing pursuit, but giving a name to the FBI has got to be a bit risky. I mean, I can sit here all night and champion McCoy, with the knowledge he's been dead for 32 years. If you think your supect is capable of that crime, he might have a vindictive or revenge capacity also. You've already given enough details for him to recognize the description, or someone who knows him. I'm not sure I wouldn't go back and delete or lessen that stuff.

Oh what the heck, live dangerously. Might make it more interesting around here.

Do you know the guy? I've never come up with a suspect, other than someone who keyed my car.

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 01:59 AM

Awsi

Time to come clean. Are you Bernie Rhodes, Callame, Theisen or just somebody who wants to be on tv or sell a book. I'll admit, I want the credit for solving this case, but only if my suspect is guilty.

My only involvement is reading the book and being astonished the case is considered a mysery. Looks like a cupcake classic to me. You can find info on almost every subject on the internet, but not Richard McCoy was DB Cooper. Just do a search. There is squat. Only the idsfilm website with the flawed choice of segments, and the stuff I've posted here. I'm serious. There are tiny blurbs listing McCoy as a suspect, or someone who pulled off the April event, but none of the major aspects. I've never seen a good article proposing McCoy as Cooper.

You've actually got to give UM credit for naming McCoy as a possible and showing a picture of him, considering how early UM depicted the case. I don't know exactly what year it was, but it might have been before that "FBI: The Untold Stories" episode. I didn't remember McCoy was named on UM until TJ pointed it out to me. If you look at the other McCoy thread you'll see I made that blatant mistake, I think in the opening post.

I want to know about the gas receipt 182 miles north of Las Vegas on November 24. The book says early morning but doesn't give a specific time. That bugs me. McCoy needed MINIMUM 3.5 or 4 hours from that point before flying to Portland, otherwise the theory starts to fall apart. I'd also like to know about the FBI supposedly placing McCoy in Los Angeles. Was that a lazy Himmelsbach flub? Or how does it originate? The book was written 15 years ago so the authors may have come up with new info boosting their theory, or making them wonder.

Bernie Rhodes doesn't show up on Zabasearch.com, but Russell P. Calame is there, living in Utah.

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 03:52 AM

I think Unsolved mysteries was filmed in around the year 1988. I think the FBi story was after the Unsolved mystery episode, maybe 1990 or 1991.

By the way, this is just a guess. I seriously doubt that Himmelsbach did the investigation on Mccoy's whereabouts on November 24, 1971. In the show on the History Channel, Himmelsbach says that Mccoy was checked out by the FBI and was found to be in LA. Himmelsbach did not say that he checked out the alibi. In most cases, the local FBI offices would investigate such an alibi, versus sending someone from Portland. Also, Himmelsbach was busy with the 200 troops he ordered from Fort Lewis who were busy combing every inch of the area where Cooper was thought to be jumped. boy, was that a waste of money and manpower. Remember Himmelsbach's other idea of draining Lake Merwin. Wow! Instead, Himmelsbach should have spent the time re-interviewing Tina and Florence and going over every aspect of what they remembered. Does anyone know? Did Himmelsbach ever personally interview Tina and Florence or did other agents from Reno and Seattle handle this aspect. Personally, I don't think he ever interviewed these witnesses personally, which if true, is a mistake since he lead the investigation.

That sounds like a very good timeline on the two programs. I probably saw that segment of UM but the McCoy aspect went right past me. But I was hooked on the Untold Stories program, not just that episode. They had an episode on the Miami FBI shootout that was extremely accurate, and even went down the actual streets on Dixie Highway and just off of it. I'm from Miami so I really appreciated the attention to detail. So when I saw the McCoy episode and the Cooper association came up at the end, I really took notice.

Yeah, I'm sure Ralphie is off the hook on the November 24 research. Other than believing it. I just like to knock him. You reminded me of atrocities from his book I had tried to suppress. I don't have any of the Cooper books anymore, other than this one. Maybe I should look at Tosaw's again but the recent articles I've seen quoting him have not been impressive, still digging the same holes.

I think Tina Mucklow left the airline very soon, if not immediately, after the Cooper event. McCoy was never interviewed as Cooper. The stewardesses don't seem to have been quizzed very often or extensively, after perhaps the opening few days. It became a forest ranger shindig. Well, that's where the money was. Seriously, I wonder how many people were looking for a body, and how many for greenbacks. :lol: Just imagine how many among those 200 fantasized about pocketing a big chunk of change while saying, "nope, nothing over here."

Your suspect is not someone I would like to mess around with. If he's questioned, he's exactly the type who will wonder who pointed the arrow.

Popeye Doyle

05-30-2006, 12:01 PM

Am I afraid of Cooper. NO. I am not trying to be macho, I have actually spoken with him in person and I know who he is and he doesn't know who I am. I have turned the tables on him. I am not going alone to confront him as I will bring back up . but this time, that sob will be outnumbered and he better have a good alibi for where he was on that date.

My problem with this is how can anyone remeber where they were on a specific date almost 35 years ago? I couldn't tell you where I was on that date. If he is the real Cooper then he knows where he was, if he's not, obviously he'll have no answer.If he was incarcerated at the time for one of those petty crimes, then he's off the hook.

Also, please see my PM.

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 05:40 PM

Awsi

The phone number you listed for getting the book about Mccoy is actually listed as the home phone number for Russ Callame. I won't give the number here for obvious reasons, but do you think it is okay to Callame that his number is on the internet (if not, you may want to delete his number from your blog) or do you think he doesn't mind if people are ordering his book.

I found the number to Univ of Utah press and they no longer sell the Mccoy book. If you do know Calame, I would love for him to join our conversation and pick his brain about a few certain points. That is, of course, if you have ever talked to him. (i'm not accusing you of being him or his friend)

dbcoopercatcher,

Wow, I looked at Zabasearch and you're right, that same number is listed as Calame's number in Utah. I have absolutely zero explanation. I honestly have never talked to him or corresponded with him, or anyone associated with the book for that matter, and my only connection to the case is reading the book. I would never intentionally give out someone's phone number on the internet, if it weren't already agreed to or appropriate.

If you look at my first post in the other thread, "Richard Floyd McCoy was DB Cooper, IMO," you will notice that same phone number is there, in my first post. That's where I copied it from yesterday and pasted in this thread. In 2003, when that thread was posted, the phone number was supposedly the University of Utah Press, and I called it to order the book. An older woman answered. Frankly, it didn't seem very businesslike, albeit friendly. I remember she was struggling to tell me the exact cost of the book plus shipping, and how long before I could expect shipment. Long pauses on the phone.

I'm figuring this out as I go along. I wonder if the University of Utah Press used Calame himself as a satellite source to sell his own book? Sounds possible, for such a low circulation book. I might have called Calame's home number without even knowing it. That might have been his wife I talked to. Damn, I don't remember looking at the return address on the shipping envelope, since I was so excited to receive the book. This is a twist I never envisioned.

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 08:06 PM

Awsi, I believe you. Maybe one or us (or you, talking to strangers is not my strongest quality) should call Callame and get him to talk to us via this site and discuss his book and maybe he would be willing to do so. I would love to pick his brain and see what time mccoy bought gas on the 24th and if Callame has any other info. on the case. Plus, it would even up the score, two against two.

At the time, I wondered why it wasn't an 800 number or equivalent. A home number makes sense in that regard.

It also explains the $18 total price, if they had no overhead and weren't overly concerned about profit.

I'm not thrilled about cold calling a stranger on a subject like this, myself, but I may do it. Calame is 85 years old now, based on the birth year given in the book. Rhodes was the principal author.

Awsi Dooger

05-30-2006, 11:23 PM

Awsi, I went back and read part of the excerpts from the "ldsfilm" website and have a question. In this excerpt, Callame goes into a detailed description of how Karen and Richard mcCoy were arguing on the way to the Provo airport for his heist in April. Karen shouts out to Richard, you don't have the guts to pull this off, you are just wasting our money on disguises, guns, etc., you are not going to pull this off. Why didn't McCoy respond I already pulled it off once, honey, have you been reading the newspaper, referring to the Cooper case. Why would Mccoy tell his wife about this hijacking and have her as an accomplice, yet, McCoy's wife obviously had no knowledge of the Cooper case. I find this very difficult to believe. Personally, I think part of Mccoy's reasoning for his heist was to show off to his wife that he could do it, not to mention the money.

Also, I did not realize that Callame was with the FBI nor did I know he was the agent in charge of the SAlt Lake City office. Rhodes was with the probation office of the government and I think Theisen was a agent in Salt Lake. Am I right?

You've got it right. Rhodes was Chief United States Probation and Parole Officer for the District of Utah for 20 years, retiring in '83.

Calame was former Special Agent in Charge and Bureau Chief of the Salt Lake City FBI office, retiring in June '72 after 25 years.

Thiesen was an FBI agent in Salt Lake City, assigned to the Cooper and McCoy investigations.

By 1973, Theisen was transferred and Calame retired. Calame's replacement, according to the book, was a womanizer who rejected the McCoy as Cooper theory and didn't reassign the case after Theisen was transferred.

The book uses an alias for Calame's replacement since the chapter on him is extremely condemning. That was a period McCoy was still alive, so I'm sure the authors believe progress could have been made in their theory if the replacement had allowed and encouraged pursuing the matter. By late '74, McCoy was dead.

I wish I knew how many FBI people believed McCoy was Cooper, besides Calame and Theisen. There was the Untold Stories show and the Discovery Channel program. That's another question I would love to ask, who was responsible for those shows? The picture of the tie and tie clasp is included at the end of the Discovery Channel show. The authors of the book tried desperately for that photo but were denied.

The quotes you mention are at the very beginning of the book. I remember when I read the book initially I was baffled as heck, since it made no sense with the premise of the book. Karen is quoted as saying, "You're a dreamer...," plus all the things you mentioned. Richard is not quoted as responding at all. I'm impressed the authors included her quotes since excluding them made more sense if all you had was an agenda.

One of three possibilities, based on the Karen McCoy quotes:

* McCoy was not Cooper
* His wife did not know he was Cooper
* They made up or severely altered those quotes

I believe in the latter, although the second is more and more possible the more I review and think about the case.

There are tons of examples of coverup and false alibis in the book, including phony stories before Richard was arrested after the April skyjacking. Richard tells Rhodes that Karen can alibi him for Thanksgiving day, along with sister-in-law Denise. If McCoy is missing on Thanksgiving day, Karen knows it. But she may not know where or what. When McCoy calls from Las Vegas at 11 PM, who knows what he told them? Maybe he drove all that way and then went back to Las Vegas to conceal the whole thing from his family.

When Denise Burns was shown the tie and tie clasp and identified them, she broke into tears when told where they came from, the Cooper plane. If she knew McCoy did it, why did she react that way? The book describes her as not the birghtest bulb and I doubt she had acting skills.

Maybe Karen McCoy sued the authors and publishers because she didn't know, and doesn't believe, her husband was McCoy.

See, I'm not as inflexible as you think. Just my bend points don't stretch beyond the border of McCoy as Cooper.

Popeye Doyle

05-30-2006, 11:50 PM

One of three possibilities, based on the Karen McCoy quotes:

* McCoy was not Cooper
* His wife did not know he was Cooper
* They made up or severely altered those quotes

I believe in the latter, although the second is more and more possible the more I review and think about the case.

First of all VERY GOOD point Coopercatcher! I think that also goes hand in hand with McCoy's rather reckless/careless style. Think about it. With what we know about McCoy-that because of his mouth and bragging about the heist-he was caught the next day with the loot on his own kitchen table. He didn't even have the sense to hide it. What makes anyone think that 4 months earlier he pulled this off WITHOUT the help of his wife and said not a word? Just doesn't add up. We know McCoy too well.

Awsi, that quote is the most concrete evidence that you are entertaining the notion. You know what notion ;). Further, you'd better hope if you want to buttress your theory that the latter isnt' true, or the credibility of the entire book comes under question.

Popeye Doyle

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 01:21 AM

First of all VERY GOOD point Coopercatcher! I think that also goes hand in hand with McCoy's rather reckless/careless style. Think about it. With what we know about McCoy-that because of his mouth and bragging about the heist-he was caught the next day with the loot on his own kitchen table. He didn't even have the sense to hide it. What makes anyone think that 4 months earlier he pulled this off WITHOUT the help of his wife and said not a word? Just doesn't add up. We know McCoy too well.

Awsi, that quote is the most concrete evidence that you are entertaining the notion. You know what notion ;). Further, you'd better hope if you want to buttress your theory that the latter isnt' true, or the credibility of the entire book comes under question.

Popeye Doyle

When I write, "they made up or severely altered the quotes" I'm talking about Richard and Karen McCoy, perhaps lying while they told the story of the second skyjacking in 1972. Admittedly, I didn't word that well.

I'm not implying the authors made up or changed anything. In fact, as I emphasized it's commendable they included those quotes since excluding them made infinitely more sense if all they wanted was a slanted portrayal of McCoy as Cooper regardless of fact.

I'm not entertaining any possibility McCoy wasn't Cooper. But those are the three possibilities if you take her quotes at face value.

I don't know why you guys assert McCoy was so reckless and careless. Many sections of the book scream otherwise. He was the brains behind the prison escape, formulating a plan that worked perfectly. Four convicts escaping from a federal pen. The plan was multi faceted and extremely sophisticated. Why didn't McCoy brag to too many people during the preparation and blow the whole thing? Then he managed three months on the lamb. Not bad. Especially considering how high profile he was following a skyjacking. He was only caught and killed after his own wife tipped the authorities.

Even on the night he was killed, McCoy was excessively careful. He and fellow escapee Melvin Walker always got out four blocks before the house, and alternated jogging to the home in sweats to make sure the coast was clear. Then the person who jogged home would open the garage door to signal everything was okay. McCoy twice asked Walker to switch turns on the night of the killing, but Walker was half asleep after a long drive so he refused. McCoy went into the home and was killed, after shooting at the FBI agents once told to freeze.

Undoubtedly, McCoy blabbed something about skyjacking a plane, and Van Ieperen remembered it. But it was before the April event, not after he came home. Van Ieperen called the McCoy home and asked to speak to Richard before McCoy even made it back after the skyjacking. Van Ieperen talked to Denise Burns on the phone and she rambled on and on about the strange day and Richard not being home. Van Ieperen became convinced his suspicion was correct. Richard had asked Karen to be home and answer the phone, but she was the careless one and had gone out. Karen would have told Van Ieperen that Richard was asleep, or whatever, and couldn't come to the phone. Probably would only have delayed the inevitable but it was an example of Richard thinking ahead, hardly careless.

When Richard was told of Van Ieperen's phone call and suspicion, he told Karen: "Don't worry about Van Ieperen. We're friends. He won't say anything. Believe me."

Lousy handicapping. Van Ieperen contacted the FBI that night. The reward was $50,000.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 02:18 AM

Awsi, something I have always wondered about. Somebody obviously tipped off the cops about walker and Mccoy after they broke out of jail and were on the lam. It was either McCoy's wife or Walker. Walker was in jail in 1974 for a sentence of 45 years for bank robbery. He breaks out of jail, robs more banks with McCoy and is free for three months. It just happens that Mccoy was the one who entered the house the night the FBI caught them. If I remember right, didn't Walker get caught in his car just a block or two from the house. IF so, how did this guy get out of jail in the 1980's. I saw a picture of him with one of the authors of one of the books during the 80's if I remember correctly. How did he get parole or whatever after only 12 years. How do we know he didn't tip off the cops and set up mcCoy? I have no evidence, it is just a hunch.

Walker told Rhodes and Calame he was sure it was Karen. Four days before the killing, Walker saw that $20,000 of the $36,000 remaining from the bank robbery was missing from the back of the car. Karen had taken it and Richard knew it. If Karen knew what was going to happen, and shortly, why not take a chunk of the money for herself?

Here's the vital paragraph from the book: "Mr. Calame," repeated Nick (O'Hara) softly, "I can't tell you my source. But if you were to use your hypothesis that Karen McCoy was the source, that hypothesis" -- he leaned, ever so slightly on the word -- "would be a very interesting hypothesis."

Special Agent Nicholas O'Hara was in charge of the stakeout in Virginia Beach, which lasted three days. O'Hara told the authors there had not been a wiretap, as Rhodes and Calame had theorized. No wiretap meant they knew it was the correct residence and merely waited. Karen McCoy was the Mapquest of her day, perfect directions for the FBI.

I have no idea how Walker got out so early. He frantically drove bumper to bumper with FBI cars for a few blocks after McCoy was killed, then put his hands up in the air and surrendered when they aimed a shotgun at him. The book says he found God after that event and was paroled in early 1981. So you're right, only 12 years.

It may sound suspicious but I'm certain it was Karen McCoy. That quote from O'Hara would have to be completely discarded to conclude otherwise.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 06:24 AM

Funny, I was Googling for info on Himmelsbach and I found this article, nearly 10 years old. Again, it mentions the conflict in the FBI, some members placing McCoy elsewhere. I've got to find out the specifics:http://www.oregonlive.com/special/current/dbcooper.ssf?/special/current/dbcooper_story1.frame

"O'Hara is almost certain McCoy and Cooper were the same. The crimes were too similar, he said. The composite sketch of Cooper bore an uncanny resemblance to McCoy.

Some federal agents dismissed McCoy as a suspect, saying he was nowhere near Portland during the Cooper Skyjacking. They labeled him a copycat.

But O'Hara clings to one damning piece of evidence: the clip-on tie and clasp Cooper left behind. McCoy's mother-in-law and sister-in-law positively identified them as McCoy's, O'Hara said."

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 08:34 AM

Awsi, Awsi, Awsi

When do you sleep? Anyway, you keep coming up with all of these former FBI agents who think MCcoy is Cooper. However, none of these agents were ever on the Cooper case and each, I repeat, each has a vested interest in McCoy being Cooper. Callame and Rhodes wrote a book and O'hara was the man who killed McCoy in Virginia. Just like the old west, another notch in the old gunbelt and tell everyone you took down DB Cooper. The only problem is that O'Hara shot Richard Floyd McCoy, not DB Cooper. It might make for a good story at the senior center in Florida while playing shuffle board and the grandkids must love the story that Grandpa shot DB Cooper, but the problem is that he didn't. Nice try. I'm sure the other retirees are believing O'Hara's story, but anyone who has invetigated this story knows mccoy is not cooper. Hell, even Mccoy's wife admitted such. New rule. Unless you actively investigated the Cooper case while you were an FBI agent, stop speculating about McCoy being Cooper. You will only embarass yourself. And O'hara needs to stop telling everyone who will listen that he shot DB Cooper. Next, he will take credit for John Dillinger.

dbcoopercatcher, let me be blunt. I like your effort but you know nothing about probability or reality. I could give 50 trillion to one odds against your suspect and your theories and have much the best of it. The gross worth of the planet against one peso. My biggest problem is not to laugh.

Meanwhile, if Las Vegas or an offshore sportsbook were to put up an actual betting price on who DB Cooper really was, subject to high dollar scrutiny by the sharpest handicappers in the world, and assuming the real truth were about to be unveiled, Richard Floyd McCoy would be an odds-on favorite. That means greater likelihood than all other possibilities combined. For reference purposes, Tiger Woods has never been odds-on in a professional golf tournament. That's how decisive this is. And it's not merely my opinion. I work in a statistics and probability office and others there have read the book matter-of-factly concur with me. These are people who consult sportsbooks here and throughout the world on setting their odds.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 09:16 AM

A radio talk show host from Utah, Steve Rinehart, interviewed Calame and Tosaw for an hour each about their respective books. The interviews are available here: http://www.stevenrinehart.com/pages/?section=2&page=9

Full audio interviews, not the transcripts. And one thing someone can help me with: Calame gives his email address but I can't make it out specifically. It is russ21@aol, but it sounds like there might be something before russ that I can't make out. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Calame is never asked about the trip to Las Vegas. In fairness, they did cover the tie and tie clasp. Calame made a good point that the tie was common but not the tie clasp. And I loved it when Calame was asked about the other books and he dismissed them as rank speculation. Exactly.

Tosaw's summary rationale: McCoy could not be Cooper because Cooper's body is buried two feet deep. He said Cooper came in like a greased missile, or something bizarre like that. Meanwhile, he emphasized how jumping from 10,000 feet was nothing, that he drives the Donner Pass at 7500 feet all the time, and people live comfortably in one area he mentioned at 12,000 feet. He said you barely get a chill while jumping at 10,000 feet. Yet he's sure Cooper didn't survive the jump and the rest of the money is still out there. The $6000 was the money stuffed in Cooper's pocket. Guesswork presented as informed opinion.

One extremely interesting thing I took from the Calame program, actually presented at the very end after Calame had signed off: I was correct in my speculation in this thread that Karen McCoy has scared off media attempts at further reporting on the McCoy as Cooper connection. The host, Rhinehart, says there are intentions for a movie but they are not going forward, then the secondary member of the radio show indicates some people want to come forward, but are not willing to do so until she dies and implies perhaps others die as well. I take that to mean the two children, in which case it's going to be decades and decades.

I knew there had to be a reason the major cable programs or talk shows have ignored this case and especially the McCoy aspect. I've contacted them several times with no threat of success. Anyone who has reviewed this thread will see I didn't come up with the Fear-Karen McCoy angle until long after we began posting on the subject, not long ago, in fact. The radio show with Calame, and a transcript of questions for McCoy's old lawyer from the second skyjacking, indicates Karen McCoy sued for libel based on the claim of the stolen $20,000 from the trunk of car, and that she turned McCoy in to the FBI. Those aspects were ironically mentioned in this thread earlier tonight.

Popeye Doyle

05-31-2006, 11:21 AM

With his book en route to me I was a little disappointed to find out that Tosaw subscribes to the "big splat" theory. This puts him in...Himm...Himm-el-s-bach company :(. I thought he was more undecided and that that was the pillar of his book.

Regardless it has been well reviewed by readers and I'll reserve final judgement unti after I've read it.

Popeye

Dislimb

05-31-2006, 02:33 PM

Popeye Doyle

05-31-2006, 06:25 PM

Maybe McCoy should have had a few drinks on his second heist to clear his mind and help him make fewer mistakes. Maybe the drinks and cigarettes helped relax him on the initial heist. Wouldn't you agree Awsi? You know, McCoy being a Mormon and all. Maybe he was going through withdrawal on the second heist without his daily intake of cigarettes and alcohol.

Coopercather,

Remember that the Raleigh cigarettes were selected because he was from Raleigh N.C.:rofl: Had he been from Winston-Salem he'd have selected Winstons, had he been from Upper Marlboro Md. he'd have selected Marlboro's, and had he been from Salem Va. he'd have selected Salems. I think you can see where I'm going and appreciate how valuable this really is ;).

By the way...If I support the McCoy as Cooper theory I DON'T need an explanation of how he made a 2000 mile round trip from Vegas to Portland in a short amount of time after landing in the caniferous forrests of Washington State in a rainstorm without any knowledge of the area and without help/knowledge of his wife. That's not pertinent because it can't be explained :lol:

Think about the cigarettes (which McCoy didn't smoke) and the Vegas Odds :dance:

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

05-31-2006, 06:53 PM

awsi, I fold. YOu have convinced me. McCoy and cooper are the same person.

Your suspect just breathed a sigh of relief :lol: !

Popeye Doyle

05-31-2006, 07:45 PM

I'm familiar with only 2 sketches. The one usually compared to Weber with the wider fatter nose and the one that is usually compared to McCoy with the thinner nose. They can both be found on this page. Is it either of these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper

If not, does the Coleman sketch appear anywhere online???

Thanks

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 09:16 PM

Awsi,

You are right, I don't know anything about statitistics. I guess I should give back my A in the two college statistics classes I aced, my bs in accounting, and my CPA license. Darn it anyway. How will I earn a living now!!!!!!!!!!!!

Popeye, I told you Tosaw does a great job explaining the heist but was stubborn and crabby. Tosaw believes cooper landed in the Columbia. Tosaw, Himmelsbach, Rhodes, Callame, and Awsi all have a horrible disease called tunnel vision. They have all locked themselves into a theory and will never admit they are wrong. This kind of thinking is why the case is still unsolved.

Yes, the two flight attendants were each offered a packet of twenties by Cooper when they left the plane but they refused. In retrospect, they should have taken the money, but hey, these girls were only 23 and 25 years old at the time and scared to death. I think we should give them a little slack.

Awsi, I forget. Did Mccoy offer the two flight attendants a tip on his flight? Hmmmmmmmm, NOooo he didn't. Thanks Limb for pointing out yet another difference between the two crimes.

Awsi, you need to concede or come up with something solid. The odds are against you. Another difference between McCoy and Cooper. Hm, didn't Mccoy wear a fake mustache and gloves. Hmmm, Cooper did not wear either. Let me guess, Awsi, McCoy decided to change his appearance and thought of gloves after the first heist since he wasn't going to drink or smoke on the second heist and since he was going to use a pistol and grenade instead of dyamite. I see. Next.

You condemn yourself to irrelevancy with every post.

Is there even a threat of substance? I'm still waiting for you to show me where I said I had connection to Calame. Have you conveniently forgotten about that? Or are you predictably too petrified to look?

You might have grades and a job. Himmelsbach was a top dog in the FBI. :lol: :lol:

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 09:19 PM

Before taking off, the hijacker allowed two flight attendants to leave the plane and offered them clumps of twenties as a tip. But they declined. FBI agents later would wince at the lost opportunity for fingerprints.

Wow, I did not know that! What a couple of dumb broads. :lol:

Correct, Dislimb. And they are the ones Popeye and dbcoopercatcher are relying on for the amazing eyewitness identification. :lol: :lol:

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 09:34 PM

Awsi, I will take your bet. You give me 50 trillion to one odds and I will send you one dollar to bet on my suspect. You do have fifty trillion dollars to pay off the bet? Let's see. That would be about the Gross National Product of the US for about five years.

You have hysterically used words like probably regarding your suspect. So surely you can do better than this wimp tactic.

There are no odds on your suspect. The creation of the planet and life itself was more likely than that wandering mush of your first post. That you don't understand that is frankly sad.

Present your suspect to the FBI. I'll wager they reject him, that he's never arrested or tried or convicted. If you think probably is correct, let's actually gamble. We can work out the odds and the amount.

I see guys like you all the time in the sportsbooks. Someone will say, that's a million to one shot and a simpleton standing there will spit out, "I'll take a million to one." A sharp guy will never agree to that since he has nothing to gain. When actual risk is involved, the guy wanting a million to one backs out. Let's see if you do the same.

Popeye Doyle

05-31-2006, 09:40 PM

Correct, Dislimb. And they are the ones Popeye and dbcoopercatcher are relying on for the amazing eyewitness identification. :lol: :lol:

Sorry Awsi this doesn't work. Those two DID NOT identify your susupect as the Cooper perp. They had 3 choices...yea, nea, or maybe. They could very well have said "maybe not" or "i'm not sure" but they didn't. They were sure that McCopycat was not Cooper.

Interesting isn't it that you can post something like this and then rely on composites made based on their recollection to try to buttress the likeness to McCoy?

I believe it's been said before. You CAN'T have it BOTH ways.

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 09:47 PM

Popeye, What I meant is that I am just frustrated that Cooper got away with this. Trust me, he is no dummy and having this unsolved for 35 years is proof to this. Anyway, Cooper was in a way a type of copycat. I don't know if you have ever seen the movie "Airport" which was released in 1970, but this is where Cooper got the basic premise. In the movie, a despondent man buys a ton of life insurance, dresses up in a black business suit, comes aboard a 707 with a bomb (just like Cooper's) in a briefcase, times the route with the intent of putting off the bomb over the ocean. Cooper used this movie and a man who tried to skydive from a plane in Montana in early nov. of 1971 as his major influences in his plan. Cooper, of course, did a lot more planning and changed the premise a bit, but I am sure that both events influenced his MO. The first person who plans a crime always has the most risk and is normally more intelligent than the copycats. Others, like McCoy, just simply copy the major premise and change details according to their experise and their knowledge of the proposed dropzone.

Now you isolate a piece of cinema and claim Cooper took his idea from it.

Then you stick a Montana jump from November '71 and add it in, like upgrading a combo meal. :lol: :lol:

"I am sure that both events influenced his MO." :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

This is more like a comedy act than a serious discussion of the DC Cooper case.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 10:05 PM

Sorry Awsi this doesn't work. Those two DID NOT identify your susupect as the Cooper perp. They had 3 choices...yea, nea, or maybe. They could very well have said "maybe not" or "i'm not sure" but they didn't. They were sure that McCopycat was not Cooper.

Interesting isn't it that you can post something like this and then rely on composites made based on their recollection to try to buttress the likeness to McCoy?

I believe it's been said before. You CAN'T have it BOTH ways.

Popeye

Self-edit. I mistakenly responded to Popeye thinking it was dbcoopercatcher. Watching an NBA playoff game simultaneously. I'm going to paste what I wrote in reference to db in a separate post.

Sorry, Popeye.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 10:15 PM

Actually, that is not true. The power ball odds and state lotteries are 290,000,000 and 5,000,000 to one and each and every week people bet and someone eventually wins the lotto.

Your comparisons continue to be way off. That's the state paying out, and only after making a guaranteed major profit, through dunces who play the lottery despite it being incredibly regressive.

We were talking about one on one, man to man. Actual risk. BTW, I've never lost a man to man bet in Las Vegas. That is fact. I'm not claiming there have been many considering the number of years invested, but it's something like 8 for 8. Normally simple, like differences in memory over a sporting event, something factual that could be looked up.

Popeye Doyle

05-31-2006, 10:18 PM

Yeah, we've already been over your "have it both ways" garbage. You tried to assert an imaginary instant radio broadcast about road blocks on the night of the Cooper event was the same as McCoy having four months to save clippings.

Who did this Awsi? If you're a little bit more careful and review the thread you'll then be sure it wasn't me. It's a little like your logic. Must make you a little :blush: .

Here's something else that wasn't the same, believe it or not: different stewardesses and crew. They looked at a picture, and compared it to their memories, or the composite. Means very little, to use one of Popeye's favorite terms. If they had met McCoy and the FBI had him dress similar to Cooper and speak to them, using identical terms he used in the first flight, it would mean something if they rejected him.

Tsk...tsk...tsk. I'm embarassed for you.

I don't like to criticize you but let's review: you asserted you knew I was lying about the credit card receipts. You said you knew I had connections to Rhodes, Calame, or the book itself, if I wasn't one of them to begin with. You said I indicated I had connections to Calame.
You know what that was? It was very reminiscent of your theories in general regarding this case; desperate and out of thin air. Not a threat of actual.
You see someone taking a definitive stand opposite of your opinion, so you conclude it has to be a fix, someone with an agenda instead of a different view. Pathetic.

Anyone as inflexible and unopen as you are might very well have an agenda...like to sell books....Bernie :wave: !

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 10:21 PM

Awsi, have you ever seen the airport movie from 1970? cooper did. You don't think that criminals don't watch movies and get ideas. Where do you think criminals get their ideas, from their screwed up little brains. No, from movies. did you know that after "PointBreak" came out in 1991, that bank robberies in La went up like 50% the following year. Some robbers even used the same masks that were used in the movie. The BTK killer who was just caught. You think it is just a coincidence that the Boston Strangler movie was issued in the late 60's and this clown starts his crimes in the 70's. Talk about a copycat. That BTK nut got his idea from Boston. So, yes, movies have a huge influence, both good and bad, on our society.

This is more of the same. Cooper MIGHT have watched the movie and taken something from it. You act as if there's no doubt, and no other explanation. It's the theme of every one of your posts.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 10:33 PM

Awsi, so Cooper didn't listen to the investigation on the radio or a police scanner. Right, but Mccoy did follow the investigation about himself by clipping out newspaper articles. You can't have it both ways.

Yeah, we've already been over your "have it both ways" garbage. You tried to assert an imaginary instant radio broadcast about road blocks on the night of the Cooper event was the same as McCoy having four months to save clippings.

Who did this Awsi? If you're a little bit more careful and review the thread you'll then be sure it wasn't me. It's a little like your logic. Must make you a little :blush:

OK, it was a double team. My mistake.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 10:48 PM

(Note: this is what I wrote intended for dbcoopercatcher in a previous post about stewardess recognition. Mistakenly aimed at Popeye Doyle in that post. The bottom paragraphs don't apply to him and I apologize. I don't want to eliminate this stuff, but I'm moving it)

dbcoopercatcher, you're the one who wants everything to be the same on both flights, as ridiculous as that is. Here's something else that wasn't the same, believe it or not: different stewardesses and crew. They looked at a picture, and compared it to their memories, or the composite. Means very little, to use one of Popeye's favorite terms. If they had met McCoy and the FBI had him dress similar to Cooper and speak to them, using identical terms he used in the first flight, it would mean something if they rejected him.

I don't like to criticize you but let's review: you asserted you knew I was lying about the credit card receipts. You said you knew I had connections to Rhodes, Calame, or the book itself, if I wasn't one of them to begin with. You said I indicated I had connections to Calame.

You know what that was? It was very reminiscent of your theories in general regarding this case; desperate and out of thin air. Not a threat of actual.

You see someone taking a definitive stand opposite of your opinion, so you conclude it has to be a fix, someone with an agenda instead of a different view. Pathetic.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 10:59 PM

First of all, you have claimed to be friends with Callame. I said you were either lying or a friend of Callame or in fact Callame trying to sell the book.

Still waiting for an explantion on this.

Show me where I claimed to me friends with Calame. Or anything approximating this.

Basically, you forfeit all credibility when you make unsubstantiated claims like this in a public forum, whether you realize it or not.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 11:06 PM

Awsi, don't give credit to Popeye for my idea about listening to the radio and police scanner. You have the same problem as Himmelsbach, you can't get your facts straight. And this from a guy who has never lost a bet. Do you actually have a degree in Statistics or do you simply work at a sports book in SinCity. Remember, the past is not always a predictor of the future. I will take you up on the 50 trillion to one odds on my suspect being Cooper. Just give me an address to send my dollar and proof that you have at least, say 2% of the bet, or a mere trillion dollars as collateral. let's see, that would make you about 18 times wealthier than the richest man in the world.

When did I say I have a degree in statistics? Another one of your glorious assumptions? Or faulty memory, like saying I claimed to be friends with Calame. I have worked in sportsbooks as a supervisor, but now I work in a statistics and probability office. My degree is in journalism.

So, you didn't read or comprehend my post about the simpleton who says give me a million to one. Oh, I forgot. You tried to liken it to a powerball lottery. I noticed you didn't respond to my reply there.

Let's actually gamble, so there's risk on your end. Don't be afraid. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 11:29 PM

Actually, you do like criticizing me. What I said was, you were either lying about the credit card receipts or you had ties to Rhodes, Calame, or the book itself. You forgot to add the all important "or" in there. Reason, you have inside information regarding Mccoy's credit card receipt activity that has not been seen in print nor is it public information. Hence, where did it come from? If Callame is going to use McCoy's credit card receipt and make it public, then let's see all of the information. Not that it matters, but I'm still not convinced mccopy was in vegas on thanksgiving. The only real evidence is a gas receipt with a signature and a collect call. the collect call is useless. could have been anyone on the one end. as for the receipt, did a handwriting expert confirm it was mccoy's signature? A better test would be if anyone tested the receipt for mccopy's fingerprints, or was he wearing gloves. either way, the vegas argument is useless. What matters is where was mccopy on the 24th between 2 and 830 pm. that is what matters. Prove he was in Portland or on the plane. that is all you have to do

I've quoted your exact comments.

Again, I did so because it's so representative of you basic thought process. I don't agree with you so I must have an agenda, or other associations, and/or be lying.

You claimed to have read the McCoy book four or five times. If you want, I can go back and retrieve that quote of yours.

You don't read well.

Inside information about credit card receipts. Amazing. I quoted the book. Nothing beyond. The book you read four or five times. McCoy bought gas via credit card in Cedar City, Utah sometime early on the 24th. I'd love to know the exact time, as I stated in an earlier post. He bought gas again at the Power Thrust station a night later, 11 PM on the 25th. Straight from the book. Bank Americard 4763-160-217-773. The FBI crime lab in Washington, D.C. confirmed the signature was McCoy's.

Now you want to dismiss that verified signature. :lol:

You want actual fingerprints on the receipt. Yeah, someone faked his signature, on Thanksgiving night at 11 PM. That's the priority and MO. I used my credit card yesterday but they faked Duane Weber's signature. :lol:

McCoy's relatives identified the tie and tie clasp from the Cooper flight. That's not proof it was McCoy, but it's far beyond anything else, anything pointing to someone specific else.

Also, I noticed no one thanked me for the link to those radio interviews.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 11:39 PM

Florence, the FBI and everyone else who isn't trying to sell a book states McCoy was with his national guard unit in LA.

So the stewardess on the Cooper flight asserts McCoy was with the national guard unit? That's an extremely versatile and all-knowing stewardess. Carnac the Stewardess.

I already posted the national guard info, that McCoy's schedule was flexible and he didn't attend national guard duty on the 24th or any time that week. It's according to the book and specifically Jim Theisen.

I'll listen to FBI claims placing him elsewhere, but only if they explain or deny those credit card receipts, and place McCoy somewhere between the Cedar Rapids receipt and the 11 PM receipt a night later, if the recipts are legit.

Popeye Doyle

05-31-2006, 11:45 PM

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 11:45 PM

You slam us, me and Popeye, and then you want us to thank you for giving the website for radio interviews. It is like the wife beater who finishes beating his wife and says, oh honey, here is some ice for your face.

Nice simile. :lol: :lol:

You might notice I wrote no one thanked me, hardly confined to yourself and Popeye.

I would have thanked you. That's the basic difference. I wouldn't have even considered not thanking you.

Let me review again. I posted O'Hara also thinks McCoy was Cooper. Instead of a minor comment or leaving that alone, you wrote I was embarrassing myself for continuing to propose McCoy as Cooper. Go back and look at the posts. They follow in sequence.

That earned my appraisal of your asinine suspect and 500-fold fantasy theory.

Awsi Dooger

05-31-2006, 11:50 PM

New rule. Unless you actively investigated the Cooper case while you were an FBI agent, stop speculating about McCoy being Cooper. You will only embarass yourself.

That's the post in question. I'm not going to sit back and let some come-lately with an asteroid theory make a assertion like that, implying only people who reject McCoy are sensble, or welcome in this thread.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 12:11 AM

I found it ridiculous that anyone would put Vegas type odds on an investigation that that actually has very few facts, or any type of investigation for that matter.

Placing collective odds on an generic black tie with a clasp that anyone could have owned and some one's gas receipts that puts that person in Vegas *NOT* Portland which is almost 1000 miles away and somehow claim that this proves a point is ridiculous.

No real statistician would ever subscribe to drivel like this because it's based on nothing. It is not a fact that that tie belonged to McCopycat and being in
Vegas means nothing when you need to be in Portland. You can't base statistics or probability on nonsense like this.

Popeye

You didn't read my post on the matter last night or didn't understand the odds-on concept of McCoy as Cooper at all. I never stated here are the guesstimated odds on this and here are the odds on that. It is possible to do that, and for instance the odds against McCoy making a trip on November 24 as opposed to any other day would be huge, but it is the collective weight of the evidence pointing to McCoy and how that would influence people who speculate for a living.

That is the issue here. I wrote the truth would be unveiled. So we have a decision. Something to pay off on. People who bet huge sums of money are the opposition. They are evaluating the facts and the suspects. You can have odds on individuals, on a name no one ever heard of, any number of possibilities.

Richard McCoy would be less than even money. That is simply fact. I've made odds and bet into them for more than 15 years, worked alongside people who have done it twice that long or more.

I'll be point blank. The guys who bet at the counter and who would tackle this issue, if available, are not the scattergun types who latch onto outrageous crap simply because the creativity and denial makes them feel good. They are sharp as hell. You would have wise guys from throughout the planet eager to wager on Richard McCoy. So if you gave them odds like 3/1 or 4/1 they would bury you. It would have to be 1/3 or less. That's my estimation and from a few others in the office. That means bet 3 to win 1.

Same thing with JFK, for example. The puny speculators would be wanting 5 dollars on every conceivable idiotic conspiracy. The million dollar bettors would be taking Oswald acted alone and laughing like heck as you donated money in their direction. Again, the most simple explantion. Never the hero on the internet.

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 12:13 AM

You might notice I wrote no one thanked me, hardly confined to yourself and Popeye.

Thanks for posting the links Awsi. And I promise in the future I won't claim you've regressed since that post ;).

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 12:13 AM

why don't they have the time for both gas puchases. You say it was at 11pm on the 25th, but have no idea what time gas was purchased on the 24th. could this be because the gas was purchased at a time which would eliminate Mccoy as Cooper and the authors had already committed to the book. Even in 1971, this information should be accessible. Back then, 24 hour gas stations were rare. I wonder what time it was. Anytime after 7 am, and your theory is sunk. Agree

I've already asked this. I brought it up when you didn't even know the issue existed.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 12:18 AM

Thanks for posting the links Awsi. And I promise in the future I won't claim you've regressed since that post ;).

Sticking to the smokes and alcohol for too long is regressing. This thread moves fast.

No one had any opinion on the radio interviews?

The Karen McCoy aspect stood out to me, at the end of the Calame show. It explains to me why there isn't more McCoy/Cooper info or insistence out there.

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 12:28 AM

why don't they have the time for both gas puchases. You say it was at 11pm on the 25th, but have no idea what time gas was purchased on the 24th. could this be because the gas was purchased at a time which would eliminate Mccoy as Cooper and the authors had already committed to the book. Even in 1971, this information should be accessible. Back then, 24 hour gas stations were rare. I wonder what time it was. Anytime after 7 am, and your theory is sunk. Agree

:bump:

So what do you think SPECIFICALLY about 7am Awsi??? Appears that those credit card receipts could put a noose around your theory's skinny lil' neck.

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 12:45 AM

I think that "early" is a pretty good use of the King's language to decscribe a KNOWN time that if stated would sink a book :).

Question, how many other quote/unquote "facts" are hand chosen in this book?

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 12:52 AM

COOPER-CAT: THE REAL McPLOY

BY Calamity and Rhodent

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 12:57 AM

Awsi, that comment I made applies to former FBI agents who came out of the woodwork like Ohara, Theisen, and Callame. I respect these guys were, I repeat, were, FBI agents , but not one of them worked the Cooper case, period. Of course, anyone can speculate on who Cooper is or was, like yourself, but when an ex-fbi agent comes out and asserts that Cooper was Mccoy without investigating the case, that is just plain nonsense and is embarassing to the FBI. It also gives the impression that the FBI's stance is that McCoy is cooper and nothing is further from the truth. The official stance is that McCoy was with his national guard unit in La at teh time of the hijacking. Otherwise, the FBI would have closed this case back in 1972 and would have not spent the over one million dollars they have spent since investigating this case. Which included, digging up Tena's bar.

I looked back at that post and I can see how you changed from addressing me - Awsi, Awsi, Awsi - to talking about the FBI agents. I probably overreacted, at 6 AM after listening to two radio interviews. But that's why they invented the change of paragraph.

Your claim only FBI agents who worked on the initial Cooper investigation can have an opinion is lame. What level are we talking about? Did they have to be on the chase planes that night? Himmelsbach was there and his opinion is worse than anyone's. :lol: :lol:

The guys who wrote this book were involved from the outset, the McCoy incident at the latest, and that's only four months removed. Theisen was also involved. They had contacts in the initial investigation. They went back and got the relevant material and conducted new interviews for more than five years while researching/writing the book. Compare that to Tosaw, who said he read an article in USA Today then put an ad in the paper for a $10,000 reward for onformation.

If the FBI's official story is McCoy was in Los Angeles, they do a remarkable job concelaing it. Where is the evidence? You keep asking me to place McCoy in Portland. Place him in Los Angeles. I haven't seen a speck of credible info. I've posted the paragraph that the national guard schedule was flexible and the records indicate he didn't attend that week. There hasn't been anything comparable from your side. And there won't be.

Just consider this. He finishes his last class before holiday break at BYU on Tuesday. Thanksgiving is Thursday. Now you want to pretend he is in Los Angeles on Wednesday? Give it up. LU-DI-CROUS.

I wouldn't threaten to believe that, even if the credit card receipts didn't exist, placing him in Las Vegas. Backed up by the car mileage, I might add. The FBI can't threaten to explain that aspect. Rhodes and Calame destroy the rest of their colleagues at every turn. You and Popeye were desperate to claim two cars, or a drive to Los Angeles. Let's see the FBI's stance. Are they stupid enough to assert McCoy had national guard duty so he drove the entire route to get there? :crazy: :crazy:

Wait a minute, who was the Jimmy Hoffa of that era? Maybe the FBI was digging up a cornfield and they were so distracted the McCoy report got a bit twisted. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Frankly, I thought Tosaw would have an explanation or some specifics. He's a McCoy denyer so certainly he would provide the Los Angeles aspect.

Didn't even try. That's the evidence there is nothing to it. Tosaw essentially gave up and applied the splatter theory, if that's what Popeye called it, said he can't be Cooper because Cooper is buried two feet deep. If I ever needed confirmation McCoy was Cooper, that was it. The other side has nothing.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 01:07 AM

Yo awsi,

Hate to keep bring this up. But how do you know that MCCoy bought gas early on the 24th when you don't know what time he bought the gas. Where ever you got this, that person must have known what time the gas was bought to make the conclusion the gas was purchased early. Right. Popeye, back me up. Who is holding out the exact time and why. Early insinuates somebody knew the time. Somebody is either making an assumption or holding back pertinent information.

You have Calame's phone number. Give him a call. I'm not worried about the answer. Are you? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You and Popeye have so little areas to explore you post FOUR straight times on the same subject, one I gave you myself.

Hum. I wonder if I already know the answer when that gas receipt was purchased, and the bait has worked splendidly?

Give Calame a call, db. You've heard his voice from the interview. Nice old man. I doubt he'll bite you, other than with more inconvenient facts.

There are two of you. Maybe one can hold the phone and the other push the buttons. :lol:

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 01:30 AM

Awsi, so, is your official answer the gasoline was purchased at 6am. If so, what evidence do you have to confirm this? That means mcfake left his house at 2am. Why wasn't the specific time put in the book? Even if mccoy didn't go to la ( i wasn't there), it doesn't mean he was in Portland. Maybe he needed a vacation, maybe he went to vegas due to marital problems and was having some gentleman's entertainment, if you know what I mean. Regardless, when people omit information they have, such as what time someone filled up, I wonder what else has been omitted. Did we see all of mccoy's credit card activity for november or was some omitted in order to prevent from sinking a theory and the entire book. Something is fishy. IT seems to me the FBI was convinced mccoy was not cooper and did not spend any resources checking out his alibi after talking to the guard or looking at credit card activity. Most importantly. Why not fly out of Salt lake city to Portland instead of driving 400 miles to la.

I don't have an official answer. Leaving out that Cedar City info was strange. It struck me as soon as I read the book.

But still, it doesn't jive with the supposed FBI theory. Why doesn't the FBI say we place him at noon in Las Vegas, too late to get to Portland? That would be much more plausible than asserting he was in Los Angeles, since the national guard info doesn't seem to go along with that.

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 01:35 AM

I gotta tell you Awsi on that taped radio show Calamity didn't sound too connvincing. There is absolutely no conviction on his part and I really believe that he knows that that book is a grill-starter. Half the time he can't remember the details and while he sounds like a nice ol' gaffer, I don't really believe that he and Rhodent are in it for anythnig other than the money.
I just got the impression that he was like a jolly ol' Grandpa telling a good
ol' Uncle Remus story.

You've got to admit that even if all the disputed facts on the last 3-4 pages of this thread went your way (and that's a HUGE IF) you've still got a hill the size of Everest to climb to have a shot at bolstering McCopycat as Cooper.

The way I look at it your man is fading fast. I think he'll probably be most famous for his blood stained bricks at 733 Great Neck Rd, or the innovative "Pepsodent Pistol".

The entire theory is sort of like that porcelain lamp Ralphie's father glued back together in "A Christmas Story". Every time he can put it back together oh-so-carefully it comes crashing down every time someone sneezes. You on this board are like Ralphies father trying to hold that fragile thing together.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 01:41 AM

Awsi, You know what, I just might call Callame tomorrow. I am dying to know some answers. If any of you have any questions, write them down. I want to hear from Callame why he is so convinced. personally, I don't think he will talk to me after the lawsuits We will see.

dbcoopercatcher, let me call Calame. I was just going to post that here.

I wrote to that website with the radio interviews, asking for Calame's email address. The host wrote back, saying he can't decipher the email address wither, despite listening back and forth repeatedly. He asked me to give him the email address so he can post it on his site.

And it gets better. This is the rest of the email: "You ought to call Russell. He's retired and very pleased whenever anyone takes an interest in his work. He's here in Salt Lake. His number is: 801-272-2211. That's the only thing I know to tell you since that email address is so fuzy."

So that confirms the phone number. I think I should call him since it's true the radio talk show host suggested it, which would be a good lead in. Plus, I'm sympathetic to Calame's version while dbcoopercatcher would be more skeptical.

I'l ask all the relevant questions and follow up. That was one of my strengths when I actually used my journalism training.

Give me your questions.

I would guess Calame won't know that credit card time. Not specifically. Maybe Rhodes would know, or have access to look it up. Just a guess on my part. I also want to verify no further credit card activity for McCoy during that day and until he makes the collect call from Las Vegas.

I'll ask about the FAA forms and the smoking/drinking and how the FBI places McCoy in Los Angeles with the national guard. Not that this can be a marathon. Calame is 85 and on that radio interview he had to leave early. Maybe I can make one phone call and if something is missing then db can follow up.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 01:46 AM

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 01:54 AM

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 03:25 AM

Why is Calame the authority? He provided the investigative input to the book. What makes you think if he's well he's going to give you anything that contradicts his book?

I don't have to put McCoy in LA because I didn't make the claim he was Cooper.
You or anyone that does HAS to put him in Portland. Plain and simple.
Capiche??

If someone placed McCoy in Portand, you would want him on the plane. Then in the specific seat. And so on. Ridiculously easy to handicap. No threat of counteratttack.

When Karen McCoy dies, we have a much better chance of placing McCoy in Portland.

Popeye, you haven't put yourself on the line at all. I embrace McCoy and dbcoopercatcher proposes his suspect. You are a naysayer. Congratulations. Do you have a suspect at all? A theory?

Let me remind you of your first two posts here. Here's part of the first one:

"*IF* D.B. Cooper survived he had quite a night and probably had a few
broken bones to say the least."

Now here's part of the second one:

"Your premise is based soley on speculation and the very remote possiblity that Cooper survived that jump in pitch darkness and during a heavy rainstorm in the mountains having never specified a specific route."

Now, skip forward to last night, and your post after reading about Tosaw's book:

"With his book en route to me I was a little disappointed to find out that Tosaw subscribes to the "big splat" theory. This puts him in...Himm...Himm-el-s-bach company . I thought he was more undecided and that that was the pillar of his book."

Hmmm. Broken bones. Very remote possibility that Cooper survived. I have an annoying habit of remembering things like that. Please explain to me what changed between those early pages of this thread and last night, when you are disappointed in Tosaw and mock Himmm...Himm-el-s-bach for their theories, apparently very similar to your own?

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 03:49 AM

I will give you first shot with Callame. Don't be too easy on the old guy. You know what questions to ask.

What time was the gas purchase on November 24th and where?
Any other credit card purchases?
What is the deal about the NOv 2 hotel claim in Vegas? Is that when the reservation was made or that mccoy make two trips to vegas?
did calame talk to the owner of the gas station and make sure it was in fact McCoy who bought the gas and not his wife or sister in law
Why did he know a time for one gas purchase and not another
Did he ever show a picture of McCoy to florence or tina and what did they say
What is the deal with the FAA cards? Where did he get the info. about the Cooper heist. Himmelsbach gets angry whenever anyone brings this up as if they are insulting his intelligence.
Did he ever personally see the Cooper tie and clasp or it that folklore?
Who checked out the national guard alibi.
What is Callame's strongest argument that mccoy is cooper
Anything else you think is relevant

thanks
the catcher

OK, excellent list. I want to focus on the trip to Las Vegas especially the time specifics of the receipts, and any other the use of the credit card.

I'll ask him if there is any new info since the book came out, either supporting the claim or making him wonder. Good question about his strongest argument.

I want to know about the FBI claim that McCoy was in Los Angeles. It's not an alibi. I've never seen McCoy claim that.

Let's face it, November 24 is the key. We need to know where McCoy was, and when. Everything else is secondary or lower. I don't care if I spend the entire call on that aspect.

The FAA cards, and typed or not

For Popeye's sake, I'll ask about changes in behavior like smoking and drinking, and staying mostly silent in the second skyjacking

I want to know if it's true Karen McCoy is intimidating further revelation of the connection

Remember, Calame said in the radio interview he didn't have final say in the book. I'll ask him if he disputed or would have changed anything.

I'll ask about the tie and tie clasp. It's hardly folklore. The Discovery Channel program concludes with a picture of them. The authors remembered them from 1972, when the in-laws identified the picture.

This may all be grandiose. But just in case, I'll get the email address so we can contact him further. It might be easier for him to respond to emails at his leisure than remember something immediately over the phone.

Maybe I'll ask him about contacting Rhodes.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 03:56 AM

Let us give Callame the benefit of the doubt. Remember, he was a FBi agent, and I really do believe that he won't lie to make his book work. He may omit things, but I don't think a fbi agent will lie to make his story work. I know for example that Himmelsbach, although I disagree with him, always has told the truth and never has lied to make himself look better. So, until I catch somebody lying, I think we should believe them. Plus, it is harder to remember a lie that it is the truth.

It's the best opportunity we have, by far. Otherwise, this is a rambling argument.

Like I indicated in the other thread, I wrote to a few FBI principals a few weeks ago without reply. Now we've been directed to Calame via a radio talk show host who says he will he happy to do it. We had this phone number a few days ago, thanks to dbcoopercatcher noticing it matched the number I used to buy the book. But I was hesitant to call until tonight after receiving the upbeat email from Steve Rinehart.

I ask one thing: don't question the authenticity of anything I report from Calame. I don't have a recorder but I'll scribble his quotes like my old reporter days. They will be accurate. If you guys want to follow up, that's fine.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 06:12 AM

first of all, I had a hard time understanding anything he said. I had to re-listen to just about everything. Callame sounds like an honest guy, heck he is retired fbi. Anyway, I really think he had little, if anything to do with the Cooper investigation. First of all, he couldn't remember what cooper threatened the staff with (russ, it was a bomb), then he called the plane a 707, (russ, 727), then he doesn't remember if they kept the cigarettes. He never mentioned faa cards. Let's face it, Calame's main reason for thinking it is mccoy is because both were before holidays and the similarities. AS for the tie and tie clasp, I would like to know when McCoy's wife and sister-in-law tried to finger mccoy as Cooper. Did the FBi do a line up with the tie clasp or did they show the woman a tie clasp and say, does that look like McCoy's?

One key thing, Calame mentioned Mccoy's large pertruding ears and how he had been teased at school. During the Mccoy hijacking, mccoy used a long wig that covered his ears. The cooper suspect had short hair and nobody mentioned anything about pertruding ears. To me, that was a huge blow to his case.

In conclusion, I think the book is mainly Rhode's, and Calame helped with inside information. Calame even admitted that Mccoy never admitted to the crime. why not. His appeals were wasted. Why not get some money for your wife or kids college fund with a book deal?

Awsi, I know I am not the best writer in town. I am not a trained journalist, I am a CPA. Sometimes, we have trouble walking and chewing gum.

Very good summary. Calame was maddening to hear and understand, unless you like attaching your ear to the computer speaker, then I thought Rinehart was at low decibel throughout the Tosaw program.

I caught the mistakes you did. The cigarette butt aspect is somewhat understandable since the book was researched from '85 to '90, then published in '91. DNA was in its infancy as a criminal tool but I doubt the authors knew of it.

The book describes Cooper with large protruding ears, your identical phrase. The composites depict large ears. I just saw one on MSNBC tonight and I swear it looked like Richard McCoy and no one else. That's all I saw. They did a blurb about mysteries and DB Cooper was mentioned along with Amelia Earhart.

Theisen took the sister and mother-in-law to look at pictures of the tie and tie clasp during McCoy's trial in late June 1972. He brought them to the U.S. Attorney's office and separated them, so one couldn't bleed to the other. I typed that paragraph a couple of days ago, how Denise Burns broke down and the mother-in-law instantly identified them.

I agree Rhodes would be a better source. He was the principal author and he is also younger.

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 10:41 AM

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 03:57 PM

Catcher, Awsi,

Funny thing about Tosaw or Himmie is that WRT theory of the case these two
(or any "big splat" advocates) put the 3 of us on the same side of the fence, rare as that is. After all this time, and your theory Catcher of the Tena's bar find, I just can't for the moment buy the theory that Cooper didn't survive the jump. Catcher, I agree wholeheartedly that this tunnel vision thing was destructive to the entire case. I just can't beleive that bureau procedure doesn't prohibit this, in fact I throught that it did.

Another interesting thing Tosaw said in the radio show was that a body was found up the river from Tena's bar by some kids. He says that it was investigated and nothing was found. He also stated that he was going to go back this summer to look for it. What is going on with that? Did the authorities investigate this?

Anyway, I've got to put my faith in Awsi's interview of Calame. I don't really think we're going to get anything substantial out of this, but it's worth a shot.
I'd sure like to find the leader of that guard unit or anyone from it who could yea or nea McCoy's presence.

Popeye

I'll try to call Calame after work today.

How frequently will a parachutist fail to survive a jump from 10,000 feet? I don't care what the conditions or terrain were, he's an overwhelming favorite to survive. I swear, I don't think the FBI understands basics like this. Or should I say, some members of the FBI like Himmelsbach don't get it. Remember, you're only as strong as your weakest link. The focus should have been on survival and escape, a who done it. Go find him. Back to the Portland airport and everything leading there. Instead, you isolate yourself in a forrest and you deserve to fail. Especially when you don't even bother to identify the correct flight path and therefore where Cooper jumped.

The proplem with the FBI, then as now, apparently, isn't merely tunnel vision. It's disjointed. Lack of communication from one agent or office to another. Stubborness. Jealousy. Tunnel vision here and incompetence there. Contrasting theories with information poorly stored and not shared. I'm going by what I've seen in the media and read in several books, primarily post 9/11, regarding the flaws of the FBI and CIA. But the same flaws are evident when you review older cases, and especially this one.

The Real McCoy book gives the example of Calame's replacement who rejected the McCoy theory and didn't even interview McCoy regarding the Cooper event.

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 04:32 PM

One thing that may be forgotten is that pilots have always used rivers to navigate in the days before beacons and GPS. How do you think Lindberg found the landing field in France after crossing the Atlantic? He navigated the Rhine from the air.

Why then is it so difficult to beleive that a landmark along the river in this
barren area in darkness would be a great place to stash the cash?

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 05:01 PM

Ever notice how convenient the "Big splat" theory is? You hit the ground/river like a greased Anvil so that not a trace is found. Yet you've got a skyjacker who regardless of his military/skydiving background knows he's going to be jumping out of a plane but can't even pull the ripper?

I couldn't parachute worth a damn, but sure enough even in those conditions I'd be more than likely to at least pull it early (pull it at all). Even though I might not survive (I've never jumped out of an airplane) I'd at least at some point in the decent deploy the chute. We know that Cooper had extnesive jumping experience but somehow he just couldn't get that rip cord pulled??? McCoy has already proven this can be done like a cake walk.

I'm just not BUYING the "Big Splat" theory.

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 07:01 PM

So you don't think that Cooper believed that *not* pulling the rip-chord would take care of his problem of hiding from the authorities? :lol:

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 08:23 PM

Still no book. I was hoping to get that today. Still a little dissappointed in Tosaw but I know the book is a good read. I could use a good read. I'd sure like to find a library that has the McPloy book, just so I can read both sides.

Catcher, you're right about Tosaw's theory about the Tena's bar find. That explanation on the radio show was just plain lame. One of the last callers actually brought up some VERY good points about the money falling out during the fall and Tosaw rejects that.

Just so I'm straight on this the blocks of money were found parallel side-by-side in the sand? How far from the waters edge? Interesting it is that Tosaw claims that a fisherman (or whoever) was there the day before and saw nothing therefore they washed up that night or when a boat went by and dislodged them. He claims the reason they were side by side is that the water stuck them together. So they're in the water riding with the current and because they're wet they stick together????

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 08:45 PM

I just spoke to Russ Calame for a half hour. He was terrific, much healthier and with a stronger voice than that radio show. Calame told me he was in the hospital for 5 weeks shortly before that, "and there were two days I didn't think I was going to make it."

I got plenty of info but the two naysayers are going to be disappointed. Like on the radio show, Calame speaks primarily in generalities and can't remember many of the specifics at almost 85 years old, including the time on the Cedar City gas receipt. I asked more than once, while being polite, and it's obvious he just doesn't know: "I'm going on memory and I couldn't say offhand." I asked about the timeline later and he said, "oh yeah, he had time. I did the timeline myself. What does the book say, 6 or 7 hours to get there? I haven't read the book myself in a long time. But he had time."

I asked about the tie and tie clasp and Calame repeated what he said on the radio show, that it was significant to have two items, not one, and both identified by the in-laws. He verified the book version that they were shown to the in-laws by Jim Theisen during the trial. Theisen is dead.

I'll make some short posts with more info, instead of one massive one.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 08:51 PM

"We got sick and tired of the distortions"

"Our goal was to keep it to the facts as we know it"

"You're never going to get everything to agree. If you have three or four witnesses they will disagree on eye color or age or other things"

"You have to use the preponderence of the evidence"

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 08:52 PM

I've found Cat island but can't locate Tena's bar. Is it to the west between the columbia and Sturgeon lake?

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 09:07 PM

If you found Catepillar Island, then you found the spot. Tena's bar is not going to be listed on a map. It is just the name the locals give that spot. Catepillar island area is actually a government owned public area, if that makes sense. Understand.

Yes. So is Tena's bar the area on the east bank that is enclosed by a strait made by Cat. Island?

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 09:16 PM

Awsi, what about the national guard alibi? that is the most important. I am sure glad that Callame is doing better. I think he is a good guy and will not lie.

That was something I didn't expect. We slight Himmelsbach but I didn't expect Calame to. I guess it simply fits.

I asked Calame what percentage of the FBI thought McCoy was Cooper. "Oh boy. I couldn't pin that down."

I mentioned Himmelsbach placing McCoy in Los Angeles on the 24th. "Himmelsbach wasn't really involved. He was just there on the night of the hijacking." Then Calame went on to say Himmelsbach didn't do any of the investigation into who Cooper was, just the search on the ground.

I pressed him on Himmelsbach's Los Angeles national guard claim. "He never proved that. I've heard it before. We had the records, the national guard records. They didn't show him there." Then he went on to mention McCoy's flexible guard schedule, virtually identical to what the book states and that I've posted here.

So those two aspects weren't what I'd hoped for, the Cedar City and Los Angeles situations. I think Bernie Rhodes might be more help.

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 09:20 PM

Awsi,

Thanks for making the call and reporting on it. I have to say though that this is very much what I expected.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 09:21 PM

"That was at least the third time we were approached."

"We wanted to make sure it was done right"

"That company was an independent company, not the network. They said they would base it on the book and focus on the main ideas"

"We're glad we did it."

"That company has done very well with that program. It has sold six or seven times"

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 09:24 PM

Awsi,

Thanks for making the call and reporting on it. I have to say though that this is very much what I expected.

I know. It was obvious very early. Let's face it, Calame has done tons of interviews but they are all media looking for an overview of the case, something for public consumption and to tell an interesting story. That's how Calame tells the story and answers the questions. Only when I asked for little details did the call become awkward with pauses. He's not holding back, it's just been a long time and he's almost 85.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 09:30 PM

On researching the book:

"We were the obvious ones to do it"

"We were there from the beginning, dealing with McCoy during the trial"

"We were handcuffed in what we could ask McCoy. Judge Witter gave Bernie (Rhodes) the devil. I prompted Bernie with the questions but Witter wouldn't allow them"

That segment of the call was very intriguing to me. Rhodes hints at it in the book but Calame went much further today. Rhodes sort of falls on his sword in the book, and takes responsibility for not quizzing McCoy more throroughly on being Cooper. Calame's version on the phone made it clear they wanted to press McCoy but the legal system didn't allow it.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 09:39 PM

Awsi, I have found the competition between the FBI agents in this case to be troubling. however, I disagree with Callame's comment about this case. Actually, Himmelsbach assigned the case number to the Cooper case and Himmelsbach was in charge of the investigation in Oregon. Sorry, but Callame is wrong. I wonder if Callame is confusing Himmelsbach with Tom Manning. He, Tom Manning, was from Seattle FBI and was in charge of the ground search in Woodland which began late on the 24th and early 25th. Manning was also in charge of the 200 army personnel who searched the dropzone in the spring of 1972. I think Manning retired shortly thereafter. Could Callame have mixed up names?

No, he clearly denounced Himmelsbach. My lead in was asking about the Los Angeles idea, placing McCoy there on the 24th. I kept talking and said Himmelsbach says that on TV shows. As soon as I mentioned Himmelsbach, Calame says, "Himmelsbach wasn't really involved..." Then he went on about Himmelsbach being on the search plane but not the investigation. Understand I'm furiously jotting these notes so they won't be verbatim but the basics are there. The "Himmelsbach wasn't really involved' quote is exact. I have that written down specifically and I remember it because it jolted me.

Let's face it, it probably goes back to what we talked about earlier today, a disjointed FBI. People were working on different angles to this case, or cases, from different cities and perspectives. If someone is working in your office they are in touch and a hero. The guy 500 miles away is sitting on a chair doing nothing.

Popeye Doyle

06-01-2006, 09:51 PM

Awsi, I trust that you told us exactly what Callame said. I just find that H-bach puts down Tosaw, Tosaw puts down Callame, Callame puts down H-bach. It reminds me of high school. They all worked for the same boss, the FBi. Why all the jealousy. Solve the case, boys.

This gets back to what I wrote about earlier. Namely why does it appear that the FBI is 20,000 independent agents doing whatever they want? Where is the management that gets involved at least from a management point the way a managing partner in a law firm goes over cases with staff etc? In a police force we know that a detective has to review cases with superiors etc and on up the line. I just don't get this. Who was incharge???

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 09:51 PM

This is the area I guessed wrong, way wrong. The reporting is apparently dead wrong also.

Calame said Karen sued them over a few statements in the book, not the overall theory of McCoy as Cooper. If you go to that Steve Rinehart website, in his questions to Winder, Richard McCoy's attorney in '74, Rinehart says Karen sued over the missing $20,000 and that she turned in Richard, and his hiding place, to the authorities when he was hiding in Virginia Beach.

That was the first I heard of that. Apparently it was accurate. Calame said Karen sued them over a few facts, but she dropped the case. "Our lawyers had her on deposition and she realized it. She paid us off to drop it. We negotiated two or three times in our favor before it was settled. The settlement said we could do anything we want; TV, radio, books. But we gave up rights to a movie. We had 7 or 8 chances at a movie. But we really didn't want to do a movie anyway."

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 10:02 PM

Awsi, I don't think Callame cleared anything up? do You? thanks for calling, but I sure what to hear from Rhodes. Somebody has to know where McCoy was on the 24th. do you need help finding Rhodes, Did Callame give you Rhodes' phone number or is Rhodes old or ill.?

I didn't get Rhodes' contact info. Understand, I called after work and Calame tried to cut me off to eat dinner. I kept him on the line and slipped in a few more questions but I didn't get to everything I had written down. Not that it would have mattered.

At the end he talked for several minutes about being in the hospital. He's got 14 people in the family who are doctors or in the medical profession, counting children and grandchildren and others. He had a knee replacement and he's still adjusting. We're trying to pry info but this is a nice old man still recovering from surgery and illness. I wasn't going to press him further after he talked so warmly about his famly, including how they came out to see him when he was in the hospital and shortly afterward.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 10:07 PM

Aswi, did you see the review Rinehart gave McCoy's book at Amazon. Holy cow. I can't believe he said that about McCoy's wife. While I agree, I am glad somebody had the basketballs to make such a statement

Wow. No, that's the first I've seen of it. I've looked at those reviews before, but not since I purchased the book so I missed the recent ones.

Radio talk show hosts are always looking for publicity so it doesn't surprise me he used his own name for that review.

Awsi Dooger

06-01-2006, 10:36 PM

Awsi, Can you look at the mccoy book and see if on the jacket there is background info. on rhodes to track him down. For instance, does he give the year he was born, state, he wifes name, or middle initial. I really want to track him down and talk to him. He wrote the book, so it is not like we are bothering some innocent person. It sounds like he is living in florida. After all, he is asserting someone's guilt in a crime, so debating that sounds fair to me.

thanks

Bernie A. Rhodes, born 1932 in Hannibal, Missouri. Graduate of University of Houston with a bachelors in criminology. Korean War vet.

That's the bio info from the book.

Popeye Doyle

06-02-2006, 12:03 AM

Coop,

Good luck with Rhondes! I've gotta' ask though, what do you expect to get out of him that Awsi couldn't get outta' Calame? Seems to me he'd just reiterate the book line, and refer you back to Calame about the facts.

It's worth a try but I'm just wondering how you're going to go about this?

Awsi Dooger

06-02-2006, 12:08 AM

Awsi, I have a number. It is either him or a close relative, like father. I know it for sure because it also lists this Bernie a Rhodes with addresses in salt Lake City, Utah. either way, calling this number will enable us to find him. Do you want the info. or do you want me to try and call him? It is up to you. I don't care either way,

You can try this one. Tonight I'm a bit drained by this topic.

I might feel differently tomorrow so if the contact number doesn't go straight to him, you can relay the whole thing to me at that point.

Popeye Doyle

06-02-2006, 12:53 AM

Did Rhodes or Calame do the sleuthing on the CC receipts? Wouldn't it be funny if neither could remember the time of the "EARLY" one?

Awsi Dooger

06-02-2006, 01:08 AM

Hey, Hopefully, Rhodes is alive and well. I am a bit concerned since he didn't want to go on the Rinehart show. Anyway, if I find him, I will drill him about specifics. What was the purpose of finding Mccoys credit card receipts from November 24th? How does this relate to Rhodes' job as a parole officer. Rhodes had better have specifics, otherwise, he had no right to accuse McCoy of being Cooper. You can't pick and chose evidence. Get all of mccoy's statements, witness statements etc. If Rhodes never interviewed anyone from the national guard, that borders on incompetence. After all, that was McCoy's alibi per the fbi and Rhodes would have or should have known this.

Trust me, I will be nice and open minded. Maybe, Rhodes has the smoking gun.

db, if that's your approach I better do it. Seriously. Drilling and "better have specifics" is going to get you nowhere. This is a 74 year old guy who wrote one book. It sounds great on a message board but on the phone it will flop, a shortened conversation at best. You sound like a wannabe Matt Drudge, who is a wannabe reporter. That opening paragraph is a horror show. Maybe it's because of my journalism background but I can tell you that paragraph is outright scary.

The one sentence is laughable, he can't pick and choose evidence. As Calame said, they are looking for a preponderence of the evidence. That is the book. You can't get everyone to agree on everything. You still don't get that, do you? Not everything will fit into your pristine world. We're never going to have a picture of McCoy in Portland, whether he was there or not.

It isn't even accurate, your paragraph. This is the second time you have used the word alibi in regard to McCoy in Los Angeles. I already corrected you once. That was not McCoy's alibi. It is an FBI claim. McCoy said he was at home in Provo. It is the burden of the rest of the FBI to prove that Los Angeles national guard aspect is true. Otherwise, they can't exclude McCoy and the preponderence of the evidence makes him McCoy.

Theisen was the one who compiled the national guard info, indicating the guard drills were flexible and McCoy didn't attend them that day, or even that week.

Why do you care about the aspect of parole officer? In a previous post, that a didn't comment on, you wrote something absurd about double dipping at public expense? What the hell was that? Are you interested in the truth or not? Rhodes wrote the book long after retirement. It wouldn't even have happened if he didn't bump into Calame at a Christmas party.

The FBI found McCoy's credit card receipts from November 24, after he made the second jumo. I copied that info here, a NORJAK memo from shortly after the second event.

Seriously, if you are going to do this make sure you get the basics first and don't be confrontational. Right now I'm sorry I didn't insist I do it. I'll still go that route if you want.

Awsi Dooger

06-02-2006, 01:23 AM

I'm going to email Calame and ask about contacting Rhodes. If successful in contacting Rhodes, I will post his info here.

Popeye Doyle

06-02-2006, 01:35 AM

The one sentence is laughable, he can't pick and choose evidence. As Calame said, they are looking for a preponderence of the evidence. That is the book. You can't get everyone to agree on everything. You still don't get that, do you? Not everything will fit into your pristine world. We're never going to have a picture of McCoy in Portland, whether he was there or not.

Awsi, Awsi, Awsi. :rofl: I accustomed to your absurdity and yet you continue to amaze me. We're talking about 2 credit card receipts which 2 authors mention in a book. The time line is critical just to keep their accounting of events viable, yet they can't remember the time of one of them that could absolutely (even throwing the national guard aspect out the door ) sink their case. And you use the term "preponderance of evidence" ??? :lol:
Then you talk about "not getting everyone to agree on everything"? Let's agree to get the time on that "EARLY" receipt.

You can't even get McCoy within 1000 miles of Portland and you, Rhodes and Calame want to use the term "PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE" ??

Popeye Doyle

06-02-2006, 01:46 AM

How can you write a book accusing somebody of a crime, and not know what time they bought gas, which is a huge part of your case. It doesn't sound like anyone has ever called them on their bluff

Maybe we should check the books contents for a disclaimer like: "This book is for entertainment purposes only" and then, as you mentioned, file it away under "FICTION".

Awsi Dooger

06-02-2006, 07:06 PM

You further argue that McCoy's crimes were always around holiday's. what holiday is on the 2nd of November? As Ricky would say, Lucy, you have some explaining to do!!!!!!!!!!!!

db, you're starting to mimmick Popeye, not even maintaining your previous level.

What crime was November 2? Get back to me on that one and I'll destroy the rest.

I keep forgetting, you read the book 4 or 5 times. Maybe the front cover.:rofl: :rofl:

BTW, why are you spending even 5 seconds on the McCoy aspect? What's your user name again? Do you want me to start quoting your initial posts, with the 500-prong specific theory? All the claims about your suspect. The probablys and I'm sures. None of that has anything to do with Richard Floyd McCoy, who has been dead for 32 years.

I called Russ Calame, who is a principal regarding my suspect in the case. You should be dealing with the FBI, if anything you assert about your suspect is legitimate. If you believe any of it . Get back to us when the FBI arrests him. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Popeye Doyle

06-02-2006, 07:37 PM

Awsi,

I'd like to see an answer to post #301 as well. Didn't you state that you always look for the simplest explanation?

Please stop attacking people and answer the question.

Popeye Doyle

06-02-2006, 07:47 PM

*******************HALT*****************************

NO MORE POSTING PLEASE UNTIL AWSI ANSWERS THE QUESTION BY COOP-CATCH IN BLUE ABOVE

Awsi Dooger

06-02-2006, 08:40 PM

You further argue that McCoy's crimes were always around holiday's. what holiday is on the 2nd of November? As Ricky would say, Lucy, you have some explaining to do!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll answer the question as soon as dbcoopercatcher addresses this aspect. I'm not going to allow you guys to make ignorant lisleading comments then pretend they never happened.

Come on dbcoopercatcher, this is the second time I have quoted this. It is central to your argument in that post #301. I'm not going to reply to something when a major part of your premise is ridiculous.

Now, one more try. What CRIME was on November 2? Or anything close to that. If Popeye with all his desperate big letters, but no answers, wants to try, he can. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Awsi Dooger

06-02-2006, 08:52 PM

Are you that incapable of defending a few sentences from your post? Your gotcha post?

One more try. Understand you've got others reading this thread and you are ducking the issue:

What CRIME was November 2?

Youy already ducked many aspects, like when you insisted I wrote I was a friend of Calame or associated with him.

What CRIME was November 2?

Awsi Dooger

06-02-2006, 10:00 PM

well awsi, Part of the theory in the book and yours, (assuming they are not inclusive), is that McCoy committed both heist because they were done on holiday weekends and there is not way Mccoy would go anywhere, anytime, other than on a holiday. That comes from your c0-author.

Now, answer the questions I posted in # 310 and stop ducking the questions and attacking me and Popeye.

What about McCoy's trip to Vegas on November 2nd? What about the extra mileage for this trip not on the odometer? You know exactly what we are talking about and you know that you are sunk, but you are not going to address this question, because you can't. You already got yourself caught in a premise and you are stuck.

Once again, you demonstrate that either you didn't read the book or you retained almost nothing from it.

Both crimes were before major holidays, Thanksgiving and Easter. How do you get from there to McCoy couldn't go anywhere other than during a holiday? Yeah, he was on house arrest otherwise. It gives him more time to return and cover up and get back to normal after a holiday. That's the premise. I probably don't put as much stock in it as the authors do.

There was no crime on November 2. dbcoopercatcher predictably dodged the issue because he realizes he flubbed and invented something that didn't exist. Not only invented it, tried to claim it was a major issue.

You assume McCoy drove to Las Vegas in early November. Typical. No other possibility, is there?

He was assigned to go to Davis Monthan Air Force Base outside Tucson and fly a helicopter back to Salt Lake City. The national guard schedule was flexible, apparently like always. McCoy's orders gave him five days, November 2 thru November 6, to get down there and back, but didn't specifiy a mode of transportation. Jim Theisen discovered McCoy had incredible leverage once he was given a specific major assignment like that. National guard pilots told Theisen that McCoy could simply show his military ID and hook a ride on planes out of Hill Field in Ogden, or perhaps have the guard fly him down to Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas.

The credit card receipt places McCoy in Las Vegas at the Westward Ho on Tuesday the 2nd. Wednesday was the same day of the week as the Cooper flight three weeks later. The theory is McCoy went to Las Vegas at the beginning of his guard assignment. He took the test flight to Portland on Wednesday. On November 4, McCoy flew the helicopter from Tucson back to Salt Lake City, confirmed by guard records. Theisen said the helicopter flight was maybe 10 hours.

That's the sensible version. McCoy took advantage of the guard assignment, which may have been given well in advance, to study the Las Vegas to Portland potential. It fits when you consider McCoy also made a test run of the second skyjacking, one week before the event, in fact the same stewardesses and crew.

Airline records were tossed after 30 days in that era. In a previous post I mistakenly wrote 90 days.

McCoy had plenty of time to make the dry run on Wednesday the 3rd to Portland, then get to Tucson and fly the helicopter on the 4th.

UMLongtimefan

06-02-2006, 10:16 PM

Wow... I must say this is probably the most impressive thread on the board, and I think the reason is because we obviously have people here who are very very knowledgable about the case.

Keep up the discourse folks (passionate yet respectful debate!)I've learned more about the DBcooper case than I could have ever imagined!

Popeye Doyle

06-02-2006, 10:49 PM

Once again, you demonstrate that either you didn't read the book or you retained almost nothing from it.

Haven't we already proven that the book plays loose and fast with the facts?
Now why-oh-why would be want to start speculating right along with that same book?

That's the sensible version. McCoy took advantage of the guard assignment, which may have been given well in advance, to study the Las Vegas to Portland potential.

Stop speculating and show me PROOF of where Ronald McCoy and the Hamburgular were EVER in Portland!

Popeye Doyle

06-02-2006, 11:45 PM

Awsi Dooger

06-02-2006, 11:54 PM

Awsi, first of all, stop trying to question my level of intelligence. My record and accomplishements speak for themselves. Anyway, have you ever talked to Thiesen in your life? What about Rhodes? where did you get that Davis Mothan information.

Hello? Anyone home? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I just received a hysterical PM from a major poster on this forum, mentioning this post of yours. I agree, it is difficult to believe.

Theisen is dead. I found that out, uh, yesterday. Posted here. Did that slip past you, like so many other things?

dbcoopercatcher, I got the Davis Mothan info from the book. That's where I got everything, other than yesterday's conversation with Calame.

The book you read four or five times.

Seriously, as asked in the PM, how many times do I have to emphasize that before you catch on, that I'm getting the info from the book? I'm glad others reading this thread are as amazed as I am, that you don't seem to grasp that.

But keep trying. :rofl: :rofl:

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 12:12 AM

I really think Awsi is licking his wounds.

How on earth do you claim that car "mileage" can disprove your suspect's whereabouts when it's favorable to you, and then turn around and offer an alternative mode of transportation when that same car "mileage" disporves your own theory????

Is this hilarious or what?

Awsi, I really think it's time you just tip over the King and we'll clear the
chess board.

What do you say?

Popeye, oh amazing Popeye. I'll give you an assigment: make one post with a threat of substance or intelligence. Just one.

Come on, shouldn't be too much to ask.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So far, you're batting .000. Nada. Seriously. Go back to all your previous posts and come up with something. Anything!

Quote yourself. Something that isn't a desperate simpleton flail about cigarettes or alcohol. Come on, you've had months. :rofl: :rofl:

Yes, I am attacking you. Well earned.

Do you guys even pay attention? The credit card receipts proves the car was used in the Las Vegas area on the 24th and 25th. You guys tried to make it go all the way to Los Angeles a few days ago, remember? Now you want the car used earlier in the month, another trip to Las Vegas. That would add 800+ more miles on the car, totally unsupported by the Peterson Motors records. I guess you want to deny the November 24 trip, supported by gas receipts, and make one up for November 2. That's the caliber I'm dealing with. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Or you want 1600+ extra miles on the car. Despite the car mileage records indicating only once was the typical number exceeded, and by 860, not 1600.

Oh, I almost forgot. BINGO! :rofl: :rofl:

Popeye Doyle

06-03-2006, 12:19 AM

Coop,

Quick...what do you do when you're losing a chess match????

Answer: You pull the board out from under the pieces and make a mess like you
see above.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 12:44 AM

Here, I'll throw you guys one. Just like the lack of specific time on the credit card receipt from Cedar City.

You guys are desperately grasping for anything, like the last branch on the way down.

Why not claim the Plymouth Fury was used to drive to Las Vegas on the 2nd? I have no car mileage info on that vehicle, so perfect for you guys! You can say anything, every magnificent assertion, with no threat of concrete rebuttal.

I'm such a nice guy. Helping the needy.:rofl:

Huh. Let's see how that will work. This is always strenuous for me, switching over to the wacko world of anything goes, regardless of lack of probability. OK, got it. McCoy drives the Fury to Las Vegas. We know he's there on the night of the 2nd. Or you guys can claim he merely bought the hotel reservation but never used it. See how generous I am? Let's open every possibility.

The only problem is that darn helicopter ride to Salt Lake City on the 4th. So, did McCoy drive the Fury back to Las Vegas on the 2nd or 3rd, then fly to Tucson? Or did he drive straight to Tucson and fly the helicopter back? If so, what about the Fury in Tucson? Who cares. Maybe Karen went down there and drove it back. After all, it's her car.

The point is, we need to have McCoy in Las Vegas so the trip on the 24th doesn't seem out of place. Maybe McCoy always insisted on a long trip or something odd before a helicopter flight. We could check his Vietnam records for that. Wow, this is amazing, how this works! Just invent anything.:rofl: :rofl:

Maybe McCoy stole a candy bar from the Westward Ho gift shop. That must be the crime dbcoopercatcher was talking about on November 2nd. Hey, I feel so much better. He wasn't ridiculous about that after all. In fact, I used to buy a few things in that gift shop and no one was checking, just an old lady. No security. Plus in '72 it was probably even more lax. Although she would have been 30 years younger.

Everything is starting to fall into place. Just like dbcoopercatcher's suspect.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 05:32 AM

I little bit of a lighter touch with this post. I was looking at the section of the book where McCoy is under suspicion, but yet to be arrested. He was sure Van Ieperen had fingered him and he was furious with Denise for blabbing to Van Ieperen on the night of the jump, before McCoy returned.

FBI cars were following McCoy all the way to Salt Lake airport. McCoy knew Van Ieperen was flying Senator Frank Moss around in a helicopter. Richard got Van Ieperen on the radio and told him in a quiet rage, "Thanks, big mouth."

Van Ieperen responded weakly, "I don't know what you mean, Richard."

"Yes, you do, big mouth, " Richard pressed.

Van Ieperen gave him a "ten-four" and cut the conversation.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 02:14 PM

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 02:20 PM

Coop,

Quick...what do you do when you're losing a chess match????

Answer: You pull the board out from under the pieces and make a mess like you
see above.

Popeye, post something with a threat of substance. You have been challenged and you can't even make a minor attempt.

Your posts can be summarized in two words: "means nothing." That is not an opinion. A clapping seal can be trained to bark something like that.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 02:29 PM

awsi, The wife and kids are dying to see you. Try to be here by 3pm Sunday. The kids miss Uncle Awsi. You have such a kind heart and are open minded.

Your best buddy
coop

I have a better idea. Why not invite your suspect?

Let me ask this again, since you failed to answer the other day: why are you spending 5 seconds on Richard McCoy? You know he didn't do it because your guy did, remember? The guy with proximity. The bad guy with all the felonies.

You should be hammering the FBI. The reward money is still out there, correct? You will be the one on all the TV shows, a legend yourself for solving the case.

So have it at. We can all behold you in this thread, embracing one of our own who deciphered one of the great "unsolved" mysteries.

Funny, you have the suspect, yet what percentage of your words and posts here deal with him. Maybe 1 or 2 percent, tops? After your first post, almost nothing.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 02:43 PM

Awsi, just because Theisen is dead doesn't mean you have not spoken to him in the past, you know, like before he died. Can you understand this? You keep on trying to confuse the facts..

Now I'm feeling genuinely sad for you. I am a guy who read a book. Three years later I made one half hour phone call to an 84 year old co-author. That's it.

Many days ago, before I called him, you claimed I said I had connections with Russell Calame. Still waiting, BTW, for you to point that out.

Now you make a predictable flail that I talked to Jim Theisen before he died, whenever that was.

Confused is indeed the word.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 02:54 PM

The facts are : Your entire argument is that McCopy's alleged presence in LasVegas on the 25th was out of character. Then, you admit McCopy was in Las Vegas earlier in the month, the 2nd to be exact, related to his national guard duty. which is it?

This would be comical if it weren't so numbing.

Whenever I think I'm being too hard on you guys, something like this pops up.

Out of character is the entire argument? Scary.

The drive to Las Vegas was on the specific day of the Cooper jump. That's what makes it vital to the evidence of McCoy as Cooper. The trip on November 2 makes sense in terms of a test flight, especially since it was on the same day of the week.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 03:09 PM

Awsi, Tomorrow I will call Rhodes and straighten this out. It seems you are afraid to call him and find out that he can't remember any of the facts about the case as well.

Go ahead and call him. Use your Matt Drudge approach. Ash him if he knows me. :lol: :lol:

Let's see, according to you I claimed I knew Calame, and you think I called Theisen. I wonder how I missed Bernie Rhodes?

After speaking to Calame, I realized there is no point pursuing this case. It is indeed a preponderence of the evidence case, as he so aptly put it. Nothing major is going to surface.

These four aspects make McCoy the overwhelming favorite to have been Cooper:

* The April skyjacking and all the identical aspects
* The strange and otherwise unexplainable trip to Las Vegas on the same day of the Cooper jump
* The remarkable similarity of the composites to McCoy
* The tie and tie clasp, immediately identified by his relatives

Newsflash: McCoy was trying to get away with these crimes, conceal them. Popeye and db want undisputed evidence in every aspect. That's like pretending a judge reading out a rap sheet for a criminal is listing every crime he every did. Laughable. McCoy took many steps, especially regarding the November event, to hide what he was doing. Perhaps even from his family. He was successful in many areas and the truth died with him in late '74.

I want to contact the FBI and hear how they place McCoy in Los Angeles on the 24th. Should be amusing.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 03:29 PM

You were caught in a story that doesn't add up, ie. the mileage on the car, and now you are trying to confuse the readers. If these so called readers are sending you "pm"s, tell them to post, or are these so called friends of yours only visible to you. Kind of like, Russell Crowe in a beautiful mind, I think the man's name was John Nash. He had all of these imaginary friends. I think he worked in statistics as well, didn't he?

The PM was very simple, basically asking how many times you were going to ask, "where did you get that info?"

It is astonishing. There are two threads on this subject. I probably have referred to the book 100 times minimum. Nothing else. Yet every time something "new" (4 or 5 times, remember?) comes up, you are seemingly jolted to outer space and ask where did that come from?

Did you ever pause, for even a second, and think, well he probably got that from the Real McCoy book?

The mileage doesn't add up. Right. Let's see, an 810 mile round trip and 860 additional otherwise unexpected miles on McCoy's car. Nope. Doesn't add up at all.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 03:37 PM

I think I have solved the case. It is not McCoy. I showed a picture of McCoy to Florence and she said he is not Cooper. I agree that Himmelsbach dropped the ball on this case. He is a nice guy but has tunnel vision and is stubborn. I have Cooper and will be confronting him in a few weeks. I will write again. Thanks for the wisdom on this site as everyone has done their homework.

By the way, Cooper is a pilot, expert skydiver, late 30's, ex-con for robbery, dui's, grew up in northwest, family in Seattle at time of heist (Cooper's knowledge of Seattle), huge financial problems at time of heist and miraculous recovery in mid 1972, extremely intelligent, airplane mechanic, lived in the POrtland area at time of heist (within walking distance of airport), and I am 100% sure that FBI never looked at him (this is the key to solving this case) A brillant plan.

This is the post that needs to be repeated. Our dbcoopercatcher has "solved the case."

You would think that would be his laser focus, not asking me, "where did you get that?"

I called Russell Calame. I'm sure the FBI has more phone numbers and more ears than he does.

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 03:44 PM

Howdy

I think I have a good theory about how and why the money was found at Tena's bar in Vancouver, WA. This is just a guess, as only Cooper knows for sure. My theory is the following. My suspect, (see my previous post), lived in the Portland area and was driving home after landing in the Orchards and Woodland area on the night of the heist. He turned on the radio and heard that the FBI was starting roadblocks in an attempt to find Cooper. Knowing this, I believe my suspect got scared as he approached the bridge on 1-5 heading into Portland. If the FBI had a roadblock at the Oregon side of the i_5 bridge and Cooper had the money in his car, he was caught red handed. Hence, he took the last exit before heading into Oregon which took him on Fourth Plain road which eventually leads into Lower River road. I have actually taken a ride out to this location, actually on the anniversary of Cooper's heist and can tell you that this area is totally deserted. There was not a sole in site for miles in this outlying area. Anyway, this area is known as a local fishing spot (in the summer is quite busy) on the Columbia river. I believe that Cooper had fished in this area before and was aware of the public beach. Cooper had to find a place to hide the money and get rid of evidence, such as the chutes, briefcase, etc. This place provided both. Cooper could throw the chutes and evidence into the Columbia and easily dig a hole with his hands in the sand to hide the money. In addition, burying the money was not only a good hiding place, but also would prevent an electronic tracking device from working had such a device been placed in the money. I believe Cooper quickly dug a hole about 40 feet from the water with his hands and dumped the money into this hole. Afterwards, he marked this position by placing a rock or log onto the spot and threw the evidence into the river (including the empty money bag). Cooper then drove home and waited a few weeks before retreiving the buried money. Upon his return, which was most likely at night, Cooper either didn't count the money or thought he was shorted and mistakenly left three packets (which I believe were held together by a rubber band) behind. If you have ever buried anything in sand, you know this theory is very plausible. If the three packets of twenties were not held together by a rubber band, they would have never been touching each other eight years later. As Tosaw points out, the river was dredged in 1974 and more sand was placed on top of the money and hence the erosion of the sand took until 1980 when the money was found.

I have put a lot of thought into this theory, and quite simply it is the most logical conclusion. If you look at the money which was found in 1980, that money was in excellent shape (considering the time elapsed) and the serial numbers were still legible. this money never hit the Columbia river. The reason the bills were rounded off is because of simple erosion, not from tumbling on the bottom of the river as specualted about from Tosaw in his book. You see, Tosaw's theory is impossible. If the money had tumbled on the bottom of the Columbia river, the money would have been scattered on the beach and in the river. There is no way that the money would have remained in three seperate packets, with each packet touching each other, unless the money was buried in that location. My suspect simply made a mistake in burying the money without a bag or sack. This is critical. If that money was buried at any other time, other than the night of the crime, Cooper would have thought of bringing a bag to place the money and probably would have brought a shovel and buried the money in a remote place in the forest away from the search. I believe hiding the money after the jump was an afterthought. I think Cooper was going to bring the money to his house or work until he heard about the roadblocks. This theory makes the most sense. I agree that it is not a perfect theory, but crimes rarely ever go as planned and Cooper had to think on the run. In addition, Cooper lived on the Columbia river, by the Portland airport, and could have easily retreived the money with his own boat by simply leaving his dock and traveling 12 miles downriver. Hiding the money in this location in my opinion was a clever move down in very stressful time.

I look forward to everyone's response. Be nice.

Another post that screams it needs to be repeated, for handicapping purposes.

Well, I haven't always been nice.

This may be my favorite line ever posted on this message board:

"I have put a lot of thought into this theory, and quite simply it is the most logical conclusion." :rofl: :rofl:

Awsi Dooger

06-03-2006, 04:02 PM

This image, again from the book, is buried on pape 3, which is ages ago considering where we are now. I thought I should move it forward, as a reminder of the basics, a jolt to reality after all this talk about credit card receipts and car mileage.

Just ask yourself, if two different people did this, would a composite and actual picture share so many dramatic similarities? I guess they could, given enough chances, and Popeye and db will undoubtedly jump in and desperately claim there are other composites, etc.

But again, preponderence of evidence. This is a one shot deal. The drawer of the composite had no idea what McCoy looked like, and that camera damn sure didn't care what the composite of Cooper resembled:

http://img146.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc205&image=79048_Richard_McCoy:DB_Cooper.jpg

Popeye Doyle

06-03-2006, 05:52 PM

It's time to move on. We've pretty conclusively closed the door on McCoy so let's move on to finding Cooper.

The best place to start is the Tena's bar find. This is the only real post-jump evidence we have in the case. Personally I did not know prior to this forum and the info by CooperCatcher that the 3 blocks were found 40 feet from the water. I find it hard to believe that they could have washed up that far and remained uncovered for that long. They would have had to have remained uncovered if they washed ashore. It does appear that they were buried there. I'm thinking that just about anyone from around that area who's lived there awhile would have known where they were in the middle of the night. Burying the money there would have made sense in some respects.

One question I do have is how far from that location and which direction was the plackard found?

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-03-2006, 06:59 PM

So just by rough estimation, Cooper might have landed fairly close to Tena's bar if the plane was flying at about 170 knots. Doesn't the big splat theory almost mandate that he washed down the river along with the money??

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-03-2006, 07:41 PM

Mr. Tosaw still hasn't come through for me. Now I know why there is no tracking. He sent it via USPS which by the time the tracking logs you've already got the package. I'm betting it'll be here Mon.

Are there any other books besides Tosaw's that are worthy of reading? I mean...besides that one ;).

Popeye Doyle

06-03-2006, 08:10 PM

I've been taking a close look at Tena's bar and Cat. Island. Something stikes me. I am unsure back in '71 w/o GPS etc just how accurate a jump could be but that location appears to be significant for several reasons.

1. As you said it is deserted...buuut...not too deserted.

2. It is easily navigable from the air with it's prox. to the Columbia, Vancouver Lake.

3. It has a nice long road that runs the length and doesn't appear too busy.
Plenty of space along it (pulloffs??) to park a car for a few hours, or for
a waiting accomplice to spot & pick you up.

Not kowing that area, there could be better ones, but just from what I can see from Google Earth this one isn't bad at all. It's also possible, that what was waiting wasn't a car, but a boat. Take that roadblock!

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-03-2006, 09:05 PM

The accuracy of timing the jump and knowing the location could very well depend on knowing the exact route from takeoff. This would be why Coop handed the Stewardess the note before takeoff. 10,000 feet is only about 2 miles. Using Google Earth, it doesn't seem that difficult for a Pilot looking out the window to navigate where he's at. At that altitude, even at night I doubt an experienced skydiver would land in the Columbia, it really isn't that big a target. Do you think?

Coop, you're right two CAN keep a secret, but only if 1 is dead! :lol: If the money is buried, he certainly DOESN'T need an accomplice, he walks 2 hours to civiliaztion.

1 more question. Before the dredging in '74 how close would those packets have been to the river?

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-03-2006, 09:37 PM

good point about the buried money and accomplice. I've always had three seperate theories about the jump and the money on Tena's bar because I was never certain the path of the plane and figured the FBI would be correct since they had radar records.
dbcoopercatcher

What are they? And what is your theory on the money/laundering since none of it has ever shown up in circulation...at least as far as we know.

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-03-2006, 10:42 PM

As for the money. This speculation on this is total garbage. First of all, the serial numbers were not released to the public until 5 days after the heist. It is true that everyone in the northwest was looking for the serial numbers for some time after the heist. Do you really think that in Georgia, New york, Vegas, and foreign countries like the Cayman islands, Switzerland, etc. were looking at twenty dollar bills for the Cooper take?

I agree, and another thing. I don't think the treasury would ever want to admit-even today- that money wouldn't be found in circulation, even with all the advanced tracking equipment etc we have today. That would give any ransom suspect a free ride on spending it. I always wondered about the life of Euro-dollars. Many of them probably circulate until they disintegrate.

The dredging question is sill an issue. I know that in Virginia Beach they dredge the Ocean about 500 yards out to build up the beach. This does increase the amount of shore. The difference being that in VB the dredging is to PURPOSEFULLY build up the beach, where as at Tena's bar it's to deepen the channel. I just have to wonder though if it doesn't build up the shore as a by-product.

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-04-2006, 01:26 AM

Well, I was just wondering because it's also possible that the blocks were pushed together by the Caterpillar that might have pushed the sand onto the
beach. Still hard to imagine that they wouldn't have just scattered but I'm considering all possibilities. It'd sure be nice to have a '71 picture of that beach.

I guess if my mind were closed I'd have never even considered it.

Popeye

Awsi Dooger

06-04-2006, 01:53 AM

On the discovery channel show, a guy from the treasury even admitted finding one of the twenties in circulation would have been difficult. Plus, the average twenty is only in circulation for 18 months. The bills Cooper was given were already past this age and were from the years 1950, 1963, and 1969. Hence, they would have been close to being destroyed by the treasury department (the treasury dept. destroys old and bills in bad shape and replaces them with newer bills on a regular basis) soon after being in circulation.

If each and every United sTates twenty dollar bill was inspected at every bank throughout the world and every old twenty dollar bill was inspected before being destroyed to confirm it wasn't the Cooper money, then we would know the money was never in circulation. HOwever, the cost of doing something like this would exceed the Cooper take many times over and is virtually impossible.

I just sampled the recent posts about Tena's bar, etc. and they are interesting, and certainly preferable to combative back and forth, although obviously I don't agree with the premise of those posts.

The issue that the money was never found in circulation has been used against the McCoy connection in this thread. I think the approximate phrase had the FBI swarming the casinos looking for those bills and certain to find them. I agree with this more recent post; it wasn't that simple and perhaps extremely unlikely. Besides, Las Vegas was not a focus.

The book speculates McCoy maintained some of the cash, perhaps several thousand after the stewardesses rejected the "tip," he stuck it in his pocket, and that is the only money he ended up with, losing the bag with the vast majority of the money during the jump. I tend to believe it, since he paid $1200 for plane flights for his family to North Carolina and back, during the first week in January. Those were bought by credit card and McCoy paid off the full amount within 30 days. The book says McCoy was cash strapped and there was no indication where the $1200 came from.

Also, it would explain going into the Tropicana Hotel, the closest hotel to the airport, to wash the money. That's where the collect call was made at 10:41 PM. He could have made a collect call from the airport or from the gas station if he didn't have money to switch.

Popeye Doyle

06-04-2006, 02:03 AM

Well, I don't know how they dredge it there, but VB has the pipe to pump the sand onto the beach and then the Bulldozer pushes and distributes it. I was thinking that it could have been packed into that position where it might have stayed for 6 years. However maybe they just use the dredge pipe and distribute it onto the beach w/o dozing it.

Popeye

Popeye Doyle

06-04-2006, 04:13 AM

Anyone ever think that Cooper rigged the whole thing to make everyone think he drowned and hopefully the search would be called off? I don't believe it, butttt?

d

Might have worked. Himmelsbach believes that he splatted, and we know how effective he was :).

Here's the problem that I have. Would if we were to put a body with a chute and the works, same as DB, into an airplane and fly over Washington and pitch that body out the hatch and just let it drop where it will. We're going to do this w/o deploying the chute. We won't even let anyone know that we did it. How long do you think it would be before someone would call in the discovery of a body? Weeks, months, years? Who knows but I bet it wouldn't be that long. What are the chances that that body would just disappear by plunging to the bottom of the Columbia or driving like a stake (greased anvil??) into soft mud and dissappear? Both those would almost be difficult to affect even by trying. Think about it.

Now, take the same scenario, and assume it's DB and EVERYONE and their dog, not just the authorities, have heard of the event and are looking for him.What are the chances that what we believe is an experienced pilot, and skydiver, somehow fails to deploy the chute, and then hits the ground like a (greased anvil??) and disappears. The odds have already compounded. The most extensive manhunt in us history and the thousands of people who are actively on the lookout for the last 35 years find nothing. What are the chances of that? Folks they are slim.

What am I driving at? The first scenario above is what I'd call a passive example. You've got a dead body who's chute isn't going to deploy and no one is looking for them nor are they aware of the event. I believe that it is unlikely that that body would go undiscovered for any extended period of time.

Now think about the second example which is "active". You've got someone with a skydiving background, who has meticulously planned the details and is prepared. For scenario #2 to become like #1 he has to fail to deploy the chute. I don't beleive there's much chance of that. If this happens both are in a free fall and will crash land. There is still a difference. The difference is that in scenario #2 there is an active manhunt that just about guarantees that every rock and stone is overturned in the search, where as in scenario #1 there is no search.

I believe that the probability of scenario 1 is highly unlikely. When you compound that by scenario #2 (which is DB) we're talking about a likelihood that is remote at best.

This is why I believe that the probability of the "big splat" theory is remote.

Popeye