...Agent 13 is the only person I know of who flat-out states she will NOT sell, period.
I'm probably one of the few traders with a large collection who visit here on a daily basis and refuse to sell. That's true, but there are several members here who also have large collections, don't sell, but visit here only on occasion.

There are 173 members at http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rarefilmandtelevisiontrading/ which is an exclusive group where selling is strictly prohibited. If you're found to sell, you're ousted from the group.

The reason I don't sell is not because I'm pious but for self-preservation (long story). Before TJ established the no selling rule, I even stood up for quinncy/siblis (a known profiteer) at SO. I do not condemn sellers at all even though selling is in the gray area of the law.

I have a generous type personality, and turning down traders is very difficult for me. Having to turn people away is increasing as the size of my collection grows. If it were at all possible to sell absolutely legally, I would in a heart beat.

Daily I refer traders to trading friends I know that sell series that I have personally put together. But for myself, I have to stay above the law. I am not financially well off, and could certainly use the extra money, but I cannot afford to do so.

I cannot afford to let my guard down. Not because of my trading reputation on-line but because of my reputation off-line.

there are several members here who also have large collections, don't sell, but visit here only on occasion.
Undoubtedly. Your old signature (Trade only, never, EVER, sell) just sticks in my mind :-)

I have to stay above the law.
The law does not differentiate between selling and trading so far as copyright infringement is concerned. We all know the line, it's at the end of every show we all watch: Unauthorized duplication and distribution is prohibited by law. That's pretty unambiguous: if you are not the copyright holder, or have permission from the copyright holder, then you don't have the legal right to copy and distribute. Trade, sell, barter - that's irrelevant.

I realize there are a lot of people who believe that trading is completely legal and that selling is not. I have yet to see any distinction made between the two made in any copyright notice. I've asked the people who are of that opinion to show me a copyright notice that said, or even hinted, that the no-copying and distributing "rule" could be circumvented legally so long as no monetary gain is realized. No one has ever been able to do this. I would love to see one now if anyone can provide it.

There's no distinction between Canada and the US, and most other places either. Copyright protection and infringement enforcement spans many countries via Interpol.

In short, we're all law-breakers. Not that anybody, including the authorities, cares, just so that no one is fooling themselves about what exactly they are doing even if they never actually sell.

I agree with you, Lazygrae, on all points. Trading is in the gray area of the law, but selling would be a darker shade of gray. :lol:

No problem with people selling, EXCEPT at ridiculous prices like $50 a 2-hour tape/disc. Now THAT is stepping over the line. A person shouldn't have to take out a Mortgage to get their favorite series, for Jiminy Cricket's sake.

In short, we're all law-breakers. Not that anybody, including the authorities, cares, just so that no one is fooling themselves about what exactly they are doing even if they never actually sell.

Lazygrae could not have said it any better. Why it is OK to trade here but not make any selling posts is a mystery to me? Trading OR selling falls under the same laws and trading is no more legal than selling, I don't know why people think it is different.

I trade and sell but do not make any selling posts here, I do respect the rules of the board. Its just hard for me to understand why people think it is legal to trade. I really doubt the authorities are going to bust anyone on this board for selling or trading. Now if you had a small warehouse with 25 duplicators making 1000's of copies a day that might be a little different.

Here is another common misunderstanding, it is ok to trade TV shows that are not released but I don't want to trade retail available copies, there is NO difference! :lol: I have had traders tell me that before. I ask them why not, they are trading all episodes of the dukes of hazzard and the first few seasons are already released retail, they tell me because their copies are not from retail :lol:

I enjoy the hobby of collecting old TV shows, retail or unreleased. I buy and trade. I don't dislike anyone who trades or sells but lets be clear, traders and sellers are breaking the same law.

I don't think "sellers" are really the issue. That's too broad of a word. Anybody that ever sells anything could be called a "seller".

"Profiteers".... now THAT'S your problem...

Profiteers tend to only do this hobby for the money. The source of almost all bad quality sets is people that slopped them together for a few quick bucks, not something they carefully/thoughtfully made for themselves. They view "new shows" as bargain chips or money makers, not as a show they would like to watch. You block the mainstream sellers, you tend to wipe out the proliferation of their lower-quality junk. People that "only trade" to get, and then "only sell" to give, are the profiteers. As well as those that sell retail copies, have big public online stores with shopping carts, or have dozens of auctions at any time. These people rarely, if ever, watch the shows. They don't know if it's really good quality, or even if the discs work. They spend nothing to make it happen, they pass along junk, and they expect huge income out of it. They are a poison... a disease... a cancer... to the tv show collecting hobby.

No selling rules are usually about preventing these kind of people from destroying a trade site with sale ads all the time. Simple as that.

Can we name the profiteers now and weed them out?? Just kidding;)

BOOTLEGS ARE BOOTLEGS !!! AND ... RULES ARE RULES !!!

ENJOY THE FORUM ,... BUT FOLLOW THE OWNERS RULES ,.. SIMPLE .

DON'T LIKE IT ,... OPEN YOUR OWN FORUM ,.. ALLOW ALL THE PROFITEERS YOU WANT IN IT .

THIS IS MY TAKE . TRADE, SELL, OR SELL LIKE IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO LIVE, IS NOT THE MAIN ISSUE ,... THE RULES ARE .

SO ENJOY THE HOBBY AND DON'T MAKE IT A OBJECT OF SCRUTINY. JUST FOLLOW THE RULES OR GET THE HELL OUT. OOPS, I MEAN THE HECK OUT. ...LOL

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/vcd_cowboy/Boot_Yer_Butt.jpg

let me break some news to everyone

if you would stop purchaseing from those people who sell at $ 10 a disc and up, they would either come down in price to an honest level, or they just fade away from lack of business

whos fault is it, the folks who fork out up to $ 65 a tape or disc

if there a show thats worth $ 65 a tape, please invite me over, i gotta see this show

just say no

to me the profiteers are of zero problems to me, i just pass when they quote the big money and move on, i dont care if i needed one show for a complete set of my favorite show, i will not play that high price game

Profiteers are also those who have set up a business and sell many sets at $5 per/dvd.

BOOTLEGS ARE BOOTLEGS !!! AND ... RULES ARE RULES !!!

ENJOY THE FORUM ,... BUT FOLLOW THE OWNERS RULES ,.. SIMPLE .

DON'T LIKE IT ,... OPEN YOUR OWN FORUM ,.. ALLOW ALL THE PROFITEERS YOU WANT IN IT .

THIS IS MY TAKE . TRADE, SELL, OR SELL LIKE IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO LIVE, IS NOT THE MAIN ISSUE ,... THE RULES ARE .



I never argued the rules of the board. What I was trying to explain is that it is just as much against the law to trade as it is to sell no matter what you charge per disc/tape. Some people don't choose to see it that way and think that all sellers are bad but traders are above the law because they trade only. :lol:

I trade more than I buy or sell but I will buy something I can't trade for if its $3.00 per disc or less.

I agree with Loren. Why complain if someone is charging $50.00 a tape? Don't buy it! Do you really need it that bad? Believe me they are not selling much at that price anyway.

My 2 cents is this, 5 to 10 a dvd never bothered me, seems fair for someone's time. I have also paid $35 a tape for a few things b/c I wanted them. To me I could care less whether you trade/sell, etc, JUST BE HONEST. THat is all that matters, if you say you are going to deliver just do it and there are no problems.

I do agree with the board rule of NO public selling, it just invites trouble. Of course, if anyone wanted to get technical, Scott is correct in that trading could have the same effect.

Lighten up everyone, be smart and enjoy the hobby and if you spend $5 sometime, that is your decision, god knows I have spent a ton, traded a ton and enjoyed most of it

Tom

Very well said Tom.

let me break some news to everyone

if you would stop purchaseing from those people who sell at $ 10 a disc and up, they would either come down in price to an honest level, or they just fade away from lack of business

whos fault is it, the folks who fork out up to $ 65 a tape or disc

if there a show thats worth $ 65 a tape, please invite me over, i gotta see this show

just say no

to me the profiteers are of zero problems to me, i just pass when they quote the big money and move on, i dont care if i needed one show for a complete set of my favorite show, i will not play that high price game

Loren. That's easier said than done. Let me give you a great analogy. How many times have people said they would stop watching games and buying tickets to a sporting event everytime NFL or MLB players threatened to strike over money. People are hooked. They can't do it. I always thought there should be a union of fans that could stop supporting a certain sport if the owners and players would not stop their greedy ways. In theory (not reality) it could work, but just like the oil cartels that promise each other to limit production in order to drive up price, someone will always cheat to make a buck. History has shown this to be true time and again.

Up until the no selling rule was established, the number of "for sale" posts was increasing daily. Whether someone privately buys, sells, or trades is up to the individual.

But posting "for sale" posts could very well draw attention from the MPAA, government, etc. We want to keep this site up and stay on the up-and-up as much as possible. Some may say that trading and selling are equally illegal, but without a doubt the authorities will attack on-line sellers before traders.

Dictionary definition of PROFITEER:
"a person who takes advantage of a situation in which other people are suffering to make a profit, often by selling at a high price goods which are difficult to obtain"

i.e. siblis, quinncy, etc.

We can choose to NOT buy from those who charge outlandish prices.

How about a DVD Profiteer definition? Explanations seem vague.

What's a high price? $3-5 a disc seems cheap enough when it's something rare, but how about when you look at it on a larger scale? $3 x 50 discs = $150, or $5 x 50 = $250

Labeling someone a "profiteer" is speculative, but to me, if someone consistently makes $100+/wk, it's unlikely that they're not in it for the buck.

If they sell more than trade or if they expect more than what they're giving, that seems like they're profiting to me. :D

i.e. When I posted that I needed the last 11 episodes of "The Real McCoys" awhile back, a trader contacted me with an offer for the last 11 episodes. In exchange for those 11 episodes, all he'd want would be my 39 DVDs (216 episodes). "I have a great deal for you!" he told me. (He offered to throw in a few other discs for good measure.) Profiteer.

Most of my favorite traders have a common thread: a desire to help each other complete sets. Traders that hoard a series in order to keep the monopoly over it sends up red flags in my mind. Life is too short to deal with profiteers unless they have something I want. :lol:

Up until the no selling rule was established, the number of "for sale" posts was increasing daily. Whether someone privately buys, sells, or trades is up to the individual.

But posting "for sale" posts could very well draw attention from the MPAA, government, etc. We want to keep this site up and stay on the up-and-up as much as possible. Some may say that trading and selling are equally illegal, but without a doubt the authorities will attack on-line sellers before traders.

Dictionary definition of PROFITEER:
"a person who takes advantage of a situation in which other people are suffering to make a profit, often by selling at a high price goods which are difficult to obtain"

i.e. siblis, quinncy, etc.

We can choose to NOT buy from those who charge outlandish prices.

How about a DVD Profiteer definition? Explanations seem vague.

What's a high price? $3-5 a disc seems cheap enough when it's something rare, but how about when you look at it on a larger scale? $3 x 50 discs = $150, or $5 x 50 = $250

Labeling someone a "profiteer" is speculative, but to me, if someone consistently makes $100+/wk, it's unlikely that they're not in it for the buck.

If they sell more than trade or if they expect more than what they're giving, that seems like they're profiting to me. :D

i.e. When I posted that I needed the last 11 episodes of "The Real McCoys" awhile back, a trader contacted me with an offer for the last 11 episodes. In exchange for those 11 episodes, all he'd want would be my 39 DVDs (216 episodes). "I have a great deal for you!" he told me. (He offered to throw in a few other discs for good measure.) Profiteer.

Most of my favorite traders have a common thread: a desire to help each other complete sets. Traders that hoard a series in order to keep the monopoly over it sends up red flags in my mind. Life is too short to deal with profiteers unless they have something I want. :lol:

I've been visiting this board regularly for months now and done many deals, always as a buyer, as I haven't the setup to dupe tapes or discs. I'm motivated to collect what I do merely to satisfy my curiosity about a show I've never seen but want to check out or get episodes of an old favorite unavailable elsewhere.

I've had the majority of my deals with SCOL members and most of them have been happy ones. TWO profiteers attempted to rip me off and I made this as public a problem as I could, in order to prevent someone else from getting caught in the same trap.

I've inquired about some shows from traders who've let me know that they are not interested in selling and I've always respected that.

I used to post positive feedback on my good trades but stopped after awhile as I became worried that crediting someone for being an honest seller who gave a fair deal might get them in trouble.

The NO SELLING POSTS ALLOWED was unavoidable-the bad deals I had were with people who sought me out after reading about my interest in something, as opposed to the honest folks, who were contacted by me.

It's a sad irony that Agent 13 won't consider selling as she has proven herself to be one of the most upstanding members around and is constantly dispensing great wisdom with her points (like the one above) but as I said, I respect her decision.

I hope the folks I've done business with in the past will be open to future deals but most importantly, I'm really hoping all this recent attention on flushing out cheaters and scammers is successful-I joined this group because I wanted to communicate with people who share a common interest and frankly, the negativity and greed that built to the recent fever pitch was souring me.

As these new ideas to fix problems come up, we can all expect some bugs that will need to be worked out but let's do each other the favor of listening to each other with both ears and making our criticisms constructive, eh?

I used to post positive feedback on my good trades but stopped after awhile as I became worried that crediting someone for being an honest seller who gave a fair deal might get them in trouble.... It's a sad irony that Agent 13 won't consider selling... I can easily see the reasoning behind not posting feedback. In fact, I have thought the same thing. :(

I feel very badly turning buyers away all the time. However, depending upon how busy I am at the moment, I usually refer people to links where I know that others have advertised similar/identical sets. I love to share in this hobby, and I never keep my sources under lock and key. :D

I started out "trading" by buying an almost complete set of "Leave it to Beaver" and a 90 episode set of Phil Silvers, which got the trading snowball rolling. Building up a large library of goodies takes time, but it's a whole lot of fun when you acquire something you've been searching high and low for. :happyface

Profiteers are also those who have set up a business and sell many sets at $5 per/dvd.


I take some offense to this as I sell sets for $5-6 a disc on ioffer but I really make a couple hundred a month and do it only to supplement my trading costs as I am sure many of you know that trading can be an addiction (like for me) and costs build up,

I certainly do not make a living or even what I would justify as a reasonable income from it. I love dvd collecting as a hobby and I agree that some people do this as a business only proposition, However labeling all sellers as profiteers is unfair.

I have had people approach me for trades and offer $ for extra items, I have actually traded for sets that do not interest me much just to help other traders as I know what it was like when I started. I would much rather trade than sell but the extra $ does come in handy to buy new dvds and computer upgrades.

I also respect the rules of this forum and have and will continue to abide by them. Selling is a "darker shade of grey" but does not neccesarily indicate that sellers are profiteers and have no interest in helping other traders.

If anyone is interested in trading here is my site

www.freewebs.com/cartoondvds

Cheers
Jay :happyface

Jay - I'm not talking about the those who occassionally sell dvds to folks because they have nothing to trade. I realize some people only sell enough to support their trading hobby. My post refers to sellers who set up businesses on the internet advertising several shows - outside of the trading forums - as well as those who search forums for "looking for/in search of posts" and contact those traders to generate business - especially when they know the person they contacted has nothing to trade. I don't believe you, personally are one of those people;) I appologize if I have offended you, or anyone one else - I should have clarified my post with more detail.

Thanks for the Clarification

And I do agree that some people out there do fit the profiteer category and I do not deal with them either. Trading is fun and most of the people I have met here seem like "good people" to me

Cheers
Jay

<< It's a sad irony that Agent 13 won't consider selling as she has proven herself to be one of the most upstanding members around and is constantly dispensing great wisdom with her points (like the one above) but as I said, I respect her decision. >>

While I don't consider it a sad irony that Agent 13 won't sell, I certainly agree with your assesment of her and her collection is certainly impressive. I'm new to trading (~10 months) and, like Agent 13, got involved after buying shows (mostly on Ebay). I then began to search for shows I wanted that weren't offered on Ebay & found the trading world.

As a trading newbie, I'm always interested in the advice that is offered here & at another trading group I've joined. I feel for those who have nothing to trade and really want shows to gift to those they care about, as I've certainly been in that situation (my Christmas gift to my husband last year was 22 episodes of "The Fugitive" with David Janssen & he was totally jazzed). But I've decided FOR ME, it's just not worth the risk to sell, even at $5 or less per DVD. I don't even trade to increase my inventory simply for the sake of increasing it. It's either a show for me or someone in my family. Ok, I have made a few trades simply because someone newer than myself wanted something *I* had - but we both got something we enjoyed out of the deal.

I guess, as with all things in life, we each need to define the line we will not cross. Ironically enough, most of the shows I look for (mostly pre 1980) are not being shown on cable/netword tv (at least in my area) and are not available on DVD...so why the copyright holder would be inflamed about trading is beyond me (although I know it's still their RIGHT as the copyright holder).