It appears as though Jeremy Jones may have confessed to their murder and gave them some fairly specific information as to where their bodies could be found. The search continues but as of yet their bodies have not been found. Here is the link:

www.ktul.com/news/stories/0105/198980.html

I hope this turn of events leads, at last, to a conclusion to this case. I hope if Jeremy did do it, he doesnt play around, and just tells the police what he did with the girls.

I say we send him down one of those mine shafts to "look" for the missing girls. The hard way.

jeeps

I say we send him down one of those mine shafts to "look" for the missing girls. The hard way.

jeeps
lol......i was shocked at the muderous legacy this guy left behind.he's the type of person whom have killed so much he probably doesn't even remember most of them

yep! no wonder they have the man in safe keeping right here in mobile!
i think they have not even yet identified all of the women he may have killed

This is a really sad case, and I sure hope they someday catch whoever did this. However, I'm not at all convinced that this Jeremy Jones character is the man responsible, though the fact that he lived nearby at the time of the muder/disappearance makes it impossible to rule out. If I'm just going by the story he gave authorities about how he murdered this family, though, I'm thinking he doesn't knoe what he's talking about.

According to the AP account, Jeremy Jones, "after posing as their rescuer," kidnapped Ashley and Laura, and eventually killed them. He evidently claimed that "he went to the Freeman home to confront Danny Freeman about some money he allegedly owed to one of Jones' friends," and that he "went into the unlocked mobile home... [and] he shot Danny and Kathy Freeman and then set a pile of old clothes on fire." Jones told authorities that the "the girls came running out and he said, 'Come on. Let's go get help.'"

That story doesn't make any sense. This was a trailer, not a mansion. Surely the girls would have noticed him barging in and shooting people and then setting a fire before he would have had a chance to leave the trailer. So they couldn't possibly have mistaken him for someone willing to help them. Moreover, even if they hadn't seen him, wouldn't they have been he least bit suspiscious that a dude just happened to be waiting outside in a vehicle waiting for them to come out in the middle of the night, just as the trailer was inexplicably burning to the gorund?

The article goes on to mention that Jones was arrested early the next morning for public intoxication. So he had to drive somewhere and unload the bodies before returning, drunk, only to be arrested on that minor charge? Doesn't seem overly likely to me.

My initial thought when I read his "confession" is "Show me the bodies!"

Welcome to the board, softenthesilence---you're new aren't you? You are doing a great job contributing and analyzing the cases. Just wanted to say welcome! :wave:

Well, one must remember, the local sheriff's department and Danny Freeman were well known enemies. Danny was very angry and blamed the sheriff's department for his son's death and of course he had threatened to file a civil suit against the sheriff's department for wrongful death.

Needless to say the sheriff's department and the Freeman's were huge enemies at this time they had used intimidation, bogus traffic stops, threats of arrest, various things to get Freeman to not file the suit. It is safe to assume that this suit would have been filed had the Freeman's survived. I am still not beyond believing a member of the sheriff's department could have been involved in this murder.

In terms of the girls, maybe at first it would have been believable that Ashley murdered her parents and took Laura with her. It was well known that Ashley and her father did not get along. However, why kill her mom too? While Ashley and Danny didnt get along very well, it has never even been alleged that Ashley and her mom didnt get along. Also these girls were young teens that had never been in trouble with the law before, so I think had they done this at most they would have lasted a few weeks on the run before turning up.

It could have been drug dealers that did this, Danny was involved in drug dealing and had made enemies there too. I doubt Ashley Freeman or Laura Bible are still alive, my guess is that they were murdered not too long after they disappeared and their bodies disposed of.

But the way that the house was torched, clearly whoever did this, was either trying to give the impression it was a house fire, or they were trying to destroy trace evidence, DNA, hairs, fibers, etc. But then whoever did this killing wanted to make it look like the girls did it? There is just something that I am missing on the case, I will have to research it more.

Well, I dont know, like I said, the sheriff's department, despite the whole feud with the Freeman's, it is still a long shot that they were behind this, but I do not rule them out. But I do think this effected how they handled the investigation, I believe the sheriff's department under pressure turned the investigation over to outside agencies.

I actually do not agree that this was a random act. I am not saying it is impossible this was random, but I think it is unlikely. The fire obviously destroyed a lot of evidence. However, while it is more likely for parents to kill their children than vice versa, this doesnt hold up as much when the children are the age Ashley and her friend Laura were at the time, Ashley was 16 the day her parents were killed, Laura I believe was 17. While parents have murdered their children that were around this age as well, it is less common than parents murdering smaller children.

I think that whoever did this, knew the Freeman's in some way, shape or form. They might not have been friends, but I just have that feeling this was done by someone the Freeman's or at least by someone that Danny Freeman knew. But then the question still remains, why take the girls and presumably kill them after kidnapping them and sexually assaulting them?

My guess would be the girls were taken to throw the investigators off the trail. Tither that or the person or persons (I believe there most likely was at least 2 if not more individuals involved) were surprised that the girls were there and had just expected Danny and his wife to be home. We do know everyone was alive and well at 9:30 pm, assuming the boyfriend was telling the truth. Was he Laura's boyfriend? Or Ashley's?

This would have been during Christmas vacation from school, so I guess I always found it a little odd how the boyfriend left as early as he did, but then again, 16 year old's, 17 year old's have curfew's so again, maybe not so unusual, it is hard to tell. But to me, the whole random theory, simply doesnt add up.

I just have a hard time believing some people out in rural Oklahoma driving around on December 29th, 1999 in the evening hours decided (hey, lets invade that trailer for seemingly no reason, shoot the parents, kidnap the girls to make it look like they killed the parents).

It is an opinion of mine, whoever did this, staked out the home, that they had been watching the home probably after dark. Perhaps they were waiting for the boyfriend and Laura Bible to leave because their beef wasnt with those two but with the Freeman's, specifically Danny. However they probably were not expecting Laura to stay the night, so when the boyfriend left alone, they probably figured, time to move and they probably did not too long after.

Obviously this happened sometime between 9:30 pm when the boyfriend left and 5:30 am when either a neighbor or a passer by noticed the trailer in flames. Since it was still burning bright, it hadnt been burning for an extremely long time, so, it almost makes me wonder, if this whole murder thing didnt happen until hours after the boyfriend left, probably more likely this happened between the hours of 12 midnight and before 5:30 am. But again this is all my opinion, it is also my opinion that Ashley and Laura were taken away from the scene alive.

Again, I believe the fact that Ashley and Laura were not found at the scene proves that this was not a planned hit. Had the sheriff's dept. planned to kill Danny Freeman, then one could assume that they would've killed everyone inside the house and left all of the bodies to burn in the trailer. The fact that Ashley and Laura's bodies were not found at the trailer would lead me to believe that this was a random act done by a random person that was passing through that town. According to what I've read, the Freeman's lived in a remote location that wasn't heavily populated. This means that if the murderers were local, they more than likely would've disposed of the bodies within a close radius of the murders (30 miles or less I'm guessing).

I feel that once the perp(s) realized that there were two teenage girls in the trailer, they decided to abduct them, assault them, kill them, and then bury them in a remote location at least 100 miles away from where the Freeman's lived.

I've bolded some passages above because I think there are some inconsistencies here. If the murders were truly "random," as you suggest, what motivated them? Killing an entire family just for the hell of it? If what you mean by saying the murders were "random" is that a stranger to the family committed them, my guess would be that the girls, were, in fact, the principle targets of the attack. In other words, the killer first stalked out the place, noticing that there was at least one (Ashley) and, when Laura arrived, two teenaged girls in the house, that he could kidnap to use as sexual objects. In order to do this, he needed to kill everyone else inside.

But the way you write it, it sounds like the murderer(s) decided to kill the entire family first, but then, when he/they realized there were young teenage girls present, they then decided to kidnap those two and murder the rest. But, if that's the case, why would they have decided to murder the family in the first place? We know robbery wasn't the motive, since such a large amount of cash belonging to one of the girls was left behind. What other motive could there have been the motive for the random killer(s)? The only way that scenario makes sense to me is if this in fact was a hit after all. In other words, if one or two people were hired or "drafted" to go over there and kill Mr. Freeman and his family, but then decided, before finishing the job, to kidnap the two girls and use them for his (their) own purposes before killing them, somewhere away from the site of the initial attack.

If it was a stranger, i'm sure it was motivated by sexual desire for the two teenaged girls.

The only theory I can come up with in terms of the Sheriff's Dept. being guilty is that they purposefully buried the girls' bodies away from the trailer in an attempt to place the blame on the girls'. But again, if this was the case, it would make more sense to do the opposite, by which I mean to leave the girls' bodies at the trailer and hide the parents bodies. It's much more believable to think that parents would kill their children rather than the other way around.

It is? What makes you say that?

My guess, by the way, is that some sexual predator did this whole thing.

I dont know, the girls might have been made sexual use of before their presumed murders, but I still in my opinion, do not believe the girls were the primary target although Mozart that is an interesting theory on your part that you think the girls, specifically Ashley was the target and not her parents.

In my opinion the kidnapping of the girls was an after thought, or the arson was an afterthought, while this appears to be well planned by whoever did this, certain things were done to throw investigators off the trail. Like the arson, is why I do not believe this was just some random attack, if it was random, why burn the house? Yes it is probably this was done at least in part to destroy trace evidence and to attempt to cover up evidence of murder, they were probably hoping the authorities would just think it was an accidental fire and let it be at that.

However, who kidnapped the girls, would know that when their bodies were not found that the authorities would probably at least consider that perhaps the girls killed the parents and then fled and burned down the house to cover up the crime.

The only other possibility is that Ashley Freeman for whatever reason did murder her parents. But I consider this to be unlikely, since while she and Danny didnt get along, she didnt have any known major issues with her mom, also if Ashley was going to kill her parents I think she would have done it when there was no company over, Laura by all accounts got along well with her parents and had no reason to flee, so while possible that Ashley killed her parents and then fled with Laura this is in my opinion extremely unlikely and the least likely besides the random break in theory.

Mozart, I was wondering your opinion of my post that was right before yours? It seems you and I share the theory that it was likely that whoever did this, had been staking out the Freeman home the night this happened and had probably spent hours watching it and had planned this for sometime.

Mozart, I was wondering your opinion of my post that was right before yours? It seems you and I share the theory that it was likely that whoever did this, had been staking out the Freeman home the night this happened and had probably spent hours watching it and had planned this for sometime.

I agree completely with your theory too......someone who had a beef with Danny Freeman had been planning some kind of hit on him and was about to execute it on the night in question, but didn't expect/plan for Ashley and Lauria to be there.

They were kidnapped as an afterthought.....but as for why the fire and everything was set the way it was.....I feel it was just to cover up the crime/destroy any physical evidence traces (as well as generally confuse the investigators).

Generally noone but absolute professionals have the right balls-to-brains ratio to pull off something like this and leave no traces.......

Mozart, I was wondering your opinion of my post that was right before yours? It seems you and I share the theory that it was likely that whoever did this, had been staking out the Freeman home the night this happened and had probably spent hours watching it and had planned this for sometime.

Yes, I agree that the likelihood is that someone targeted the place (because of the girls), stalked it out for awhile, then picked a moment to strike after planning it for some time.

Yep, I always thought that about this case. I didn't really think the cops had anything to do with it. Just my opinion. Oh, the link to the news report doesn't work?

Augh.... *rubs temples* :confused: this is one of those cases that bugs the hell out of me. the segment was so haunting. one moment their enjoying Birthday Cake the next moment the trailer is engulfed in flames. unfortunately I think the girls are dead. that someone staked out the place and abducted them and prolly killed them later. I also don't believe the cops had anything to do with it. despite their alleged soddy investigative work. the fire just screams out as a coverup to destroy evidence.

I'm reading a book on serial killer Tommy Lynn Sells where he confessed to the crime. He claimed he was high on drugs on the night and he blacked out in intervals. But his M.O. was to target desolate trailer homes, but only one of his known victims was shot, all others were either killed by blunt force to the head or a slit throat. I think Sells was just trying to gain more notoriety because he claimed to have shot Danny, then Kathy with a shotgun, then he stabbed Kathy to make sure she was dead and then hacked up Danny's body with an axe. He went on to say he found the two girls huddled in a room together and he took them to a remote location and killed them. None of this really fits his MO other than the trailer. He always killed his victims in the location he broke in, and it was usually with a baseball bat or knife. I still think Laura and Ashley are (unfortunately) dead and have just yet to be found.

I'm reading a book on serial killer Tommy Lynn Sells where he confessed to the crime. He claimed he was high on drugs on the night and he blacked out in intervals. But his M.O. was to target desolate trailer homes, but only one of his known victims was shot, all others were either killed by blunt force to the head or a slit throat. I think Sells was just trying to gain more notoriety because he claimed to have shot Danny, then Kathy with a shotgun, then he stabbed Kathy to make sure she was dead and then hacked up Danny's body with an axe. He went on to say he found the two girls huddled in a room together and he took them to a remote location and killed them. None of this really fits his MO other than the trailer. He always killed his victims in the location he broke in, and it was usually with a baseball bat or knife. I still think Laura and Ashley are (unfortunately) dead and have just yet to be found.

Have you seen the 48 Hours episode "Krystal's Courage?" It's about one of Sells' young survivors.

Would you recommend the book?

Have you seen the 48 Hours episode "Krystal's Courage?" It's about one of Sells' young survivors.

Would you recommend the book?

Never seen it, and if you like true crime books I would recommend it. Although the chapter about the Dardeen family massacre actually made me put the book down because it made me sick. I've read hundreds of true crime books (with some pretty disturbing details) and I've never had that happen.

Never seen it, and if you like true crime books I would recommend it. Although the chapter about the Dardeen family massacre actually made me put the book down because it made me sick. I've read hundreds of true crime books (with some pretty disturbing details) and I've never had that happen.

What's the name of the book?

The 48 Hours episode can be seen here (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5817761n).

What's the name of the book?

The 48 Hours episode can be seen here (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5817761n).

It's called "Through the Window" by Diane Fanning.

Few thoughts on this case, which has been so unsettling and sad since my first viewing.

Something that has always severely bothered me about this case(well, among several things)was the failure to initally find Danny Freeman's body in the burned wreckage with an apparent shotgun blast to the face/torso.....While human error is an obvious alternative(local Barney Fife's aren't rare), I'm curious if they have ever nailed down that Danny did indeed die in the house fire or was possibly planted at the crime scene post-mortem? Surely had he been burned after the original fire or possibly burned with the use of accelerants, the forensics taken from tissue samples would've showed up in a different stage than that of his wife, no? I'm quite familiar with forensics and feel this is something that could've been nailed down.

I'm really curious as to when the local PD recused themselves from the case and the OKCBI took over? I tend to think that had the original discovery not warranted both bodies and a second, civilian search DID find Mr. Freeman, this would've been something of grave interest by the new investigators and given them a new avenue to investigate. Now, I don't know if PD were involved, but the investigation in a potential second party dropping the body back in the crimescene seems very plausible.

I'm wondering if the angle of Danny Freeman possibly not being killed at the same time as his wife is something that could shed some light on this baffling case?

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/8e09vw/possible_update_coming_in_lauria_bibleashley/

The Find Lauria Bible Facebook Page just posted this update:

We realize there is news circulating about our case. We were given instructions last week to keep this out of the media until after Monday. It is unfortunate that those wishes were not kept by others. At this time, we the Bible family have no comment on anything. Once we have met with authorities and know what’s going on, we will post a statement. Please respect our family as we proceed with what may, or may not be the missing pieces we have been waiting for. Thank you for your understanding, love, and prayers.

I am hoping we'll hear more soon. I live in Oklahoma, but I haven't heard anything yet. However, I live far from where the girls disappeared.

/u/RockerChick94 had a great write-up on this case several months ago. In a nutshel: in 1999, 16-year-old Lauria Bible was staying the night at her Ashley Freeman's home in Welch, Oklahoma. Ashley and Lauria were best friends. During the night, the home burnt to the ground. Although Freeman's parents were found in the rubble, Lauria and Ashley were never found.

Ashley's Charley Project page: http://charleyproject.org/case/ashley-renae-freeman

Lauria's: http://charleyproject.org/case/lauria-jaylene-bible

Apparently there is a press conference scheduled for today, and the Find Lauria Bible Facebook page has been taken down...

Here’s hoping for some closure for the families.

Matt

Apparently there is a press conference scheduled for today, and the Find Lauria Bible Facebook page has been taken down...

Here’s hoping for some closure for the families.

Matt


It feels weird that I'm excited for this. :(

Hopefully they have been found alive!!!

Hopefully they have been found alive!!!

http://www.lolcats.com/images/u/07/42/lolcatsdotcom46ld675m4g3243l2.jpg

Anyone know what time the press conference is scheduled for?

Found this.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/recent-and-significant-development-in-missing-welch-girls-case-to/article_b848a994-ef09-50df-83c6-7193ee3e928a.html


Looks like it's at 2pm CT.


VINITA — Craig County District Attorney Matt Ballard will hold a press conference Monday afternoon to reveal "a recent and significant development" in the investigation of the 1999 slayings of Danny and Kathy Freeman and the disappearance of Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible.

Multiple law-enforcement agencies will participate in a news conference in Vinita at 2 p.m.

A suspect is in custody!

Suspect in custody in Ashley Freeman, Laura Bible case (https://www.fox23.com/news/suspect-in-custody-in-ashley-freeman-laura-bible-case/736951734)

Edit: Guess it's not a video but I'm on my work's internet so it looked locked down.


WELCH, Okla. - Quick Facts:

Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible disappeared in 1999
One person is in custody for crimes related to their disappearance
2 other people were possibly involved; those suspects are deceased
Investigators still want information, in case there are clues about where the victims may be buried
Investigators told families they believe Freeman and Bible were kept alive but are likely dead
An announcement is expected today about the suspect in custody





The reporter from the video posted the following on twitter.


@TiffanyAlaniz
BREAKING-Suspect arrested in connection with 1999 disappearance of two Craig County girls: Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible. Tips still needed to find girls bodies. I’m live on FOX23 News at Noon.

Investigators told families they believe Freeman and Bible were kept alive but are likely dead

This sentence was so chilling to me, because of all of the horrible things that could've occurred in the time they were "kept." :(

This sentence was so chilling to me, because of all of the horrible things that could've occurred in the time they were "kept." :(

Indeed, it sounds as if it was the worst possible scenario.

I can't say i'm "glad" there may be a resolution given that, but I will say this is one I wasn't sure if we would ever get any follow-up on.

This sentence was so chilling to me, because of all of the horrible things that could've occurred in the time they were "kept." :(

ohno:

The other thing I'm thinking about is...this comes like four months after that "treasure trove of evidence" that they happened upon in the police archives. It makes me wonder if this is what was behind this sudden arrest, and IF SO, what might've happened if they'd actually acted on whatever "evidence" they had, years ago. :(

Now I wonder if the girls were the intended target or if the parents were and the girls were taken as kind of an afterthought. I'm glad we may have some resolution in this case, but man, what a terrible outcome. :(

The other thing I'm thinking about is...this comes like four months after that "treasure trove of evidence" that they happened upon in the police archives. It makes me wonder if this is what was behind this sudden arrest, and IF SO, what might've happened if they'd actually acted on whatever "evidence" they had, years ago. :(


There was a conflict between the Freemans and the police was their not?

OMG :(

@TiffanyAlaniz

Ballard says there are polaroid pictures taken of Lauria Bible and Ashley Freeman taken after they were kidnapped that have been seen my many people. Investigators do not know exactly how long they were alive after they were kidnapped. @FOX23

There was a conflict between the Freemans and the police was their not?

There was, as I recall. Or the sheriff, specifically, I think. If it comes out that he hindered the investigation....holy s***. :(

They just released the name, Ronnie Dean Busick, who is 66.

OMG :(


"Seen by many?!" What the hell?! Does this imply some kind of sharing of images of them? :mad:

"Seen by many?!" What the hell?! Does this imply some kind of sharing of images of them? :mad:


I'm watching a replay of the conference. The girls were kept alive for an "unknown number of days", and the DA described their last days as "horrific". The Polaroids were seen by "multiple people" and all three men made "many statements to multiple people about the crimes throughout their lives."

holy crap! This is one of the cases I remember the most and I can't believe it is potentially solved


I am really interested in seeing the motive for the crimes

I always assumed they perished in the fire and the investigation was sloppy. Completely wrong.

"Seen by many?!" What the hell?! Does this imply some kind of sharing of images of them? :mad:

One of the news links I read had the ringleader (now deceased) taking pics of the girls and passing em around his circle of drug dealers.....:mad:

Awful. Just awful.

One of the news links I read had the ringleader (now deceased) taking pics of the girls and passing em around his circle of drug dealers.....:mad:

I swear to God, if it turns out law enforcement didn't actually investigate the s*** they had in their own files.... :mad:

This could've potentially been solved YEARS ago, before the culprits were dead. Maybe even before the girls were dead (but that's kinda doubtful at this point).

Well this is certainly a surprise...to me at least. I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that while I've been following this case for years, I eventually became one of those people who started to wonder if maybe the girls perished in the fire and were just never discovered.

As horrific and tragic as this outcome is, I hope the evidence that LE has is absolutely conclusive so that the remaining family will finally have some answers. My heartfelt sympathies to the families.

I swear to God, if it turns out law enforcement didn't actually investigate the s*** they had in their own files.... :mad:

This could've potentially been solved YEARS ago, before the culprits were dead. Maybe even before the girls were dead (but that's kinda doubtful at this point).


I need to rewatch this when I get home. The conflict with the Freemans and the Sheriff was over the PD's killing of the Freeman's son, was that tied in with the drugs? Did they cover this up / look the other way?

I have questions.

The previously named suspect is now in custody.

http://kfor.com/2018/04/23/suspect-in-custody-in-connection-to-case-of-2-oklahoma-girls-missing-since-1999/

A little more specific info about the rediscovered evidence (source: http://www.joplinglobe.com/news/update-affidavit-suggests-missing-welch-girls-were-abducted-raped-tortured/article_6e182a60-4731-11e8-9357-97b2e59192d8.html):

"According to a 30-page affidavit handed out at today's news conference, the investigation took a fresh turn with the rediscovery of some evidence in possession of the Craig County Sheriff's Office pertaining to an insurance card that was found at the scene of the crime. The card belonged to a woman who was once a girlfriend of Welch. Interviews and re-interviews with her led to the development of Welch, Pennington and Busick as suspects in the case.

Through the woman, authorities found other witnesses, primarily additional women who were girlfriends at one time to Welch and Pennington, who allegedly said they heard the suspects indicating their involvement in the Freeman murders and the abduction of the girls.

The witnesses indicated that the girls had been held in a house in Picher, where Welch at one time lived, and that some Polaroid photos had been taken of them duct-taped to chairs and lying on a bed together with their hands and feet bound. The witnesses also allegedly heard the suspects talking about the crime and about how the girls had been raped and tortured."

Just the most awful thing imaginable...I almost would have preferred not knowing. Prayers to their poor families.

Cheers,
Matt

A little more specific info about the rediscovered evidence (source: http://www.joplinglobe.com/news/update-affidavit-suggests-missing-welch-girls-were-abducted-raped-tortured/article_6e182a60-4731-11e8-9357-97b2e59192d8.html):

"According to a 30-page affidavit handed out at today's news conference, the investigation took a fresh turn with the rediscovery of some evidence in possession of the Craig County Sheriff's Office pertaining to an insurance card that was found at the scene of the crime. The card belonged to a woman who was once a girlfriend of Welch. Interviews and re-interviews with her led to the development of Welch, Pennington and Busick as suspects in the case.

Through the woman, authorities found other witnesses, primarily additional women who were girlfriends at one time to Welch and Pennington, who allegedly said they heard the suspects indicating their involvement in the Freeman murders and the abduction of the girls.

The witnesses indicated that the girls had been held in a house in Picher, where Welch at one time lived, and that some Polaroid photos had been taken of them duct-taped to chairs and lying on a bed together with their hands and feet bound. The witnesses also allegedly heard the suspects talking about the crime and about how the girls had been raped and tortured."

Just the most awful thing imaginable...I almost would have preferred not knowing. Prayers to their poor families.

Cheers,
Matt

So, the evidence that had never been investigated was actually found AT THE SCENE, and then was suddenly found again in police files in December. And lo and behold, four months after they "find" it, they have one of the perps in custody, with charges.

This REALLY makes it sound like there was some incredibly sloppy police work. And if that's the case, I hope like hell there is a lawsuit or some kind of charges that go with THAT part of it. :mad:

That, plus the people who have apparently known all along what supposedly happened and never came forward...just the lowest of the low.

Cheers,
Matt

That, plus the people who have apparently known all along what supposedly happened and never came forward...just the lowest of the low.

Cheers,
Matt

Absolutely. :mad:

So, the evidence that had never been investigated was actually found AT THE SCENE, and then was suddenly found again in police files in December. And lo and behold, four months after they "find" it, they have one of the perps in custody, with charges.

This REALLY makes it sound like there was some incredibly sloppy police work. And if that's the case, I hope like hell there is a lawsuit or some kind of charges that go with THAT part of it. :mad:


So the question now is whether this was found before or after they turned the case over to the OSBI and if they included it. Given the active feud between the Sheriff's office and the Freemans this is suspect as all hell.

So investigators have the polaroid pictures or have they just talked to people that have seen the pictures?

Given how bad the cops muffed this thing I'm kind of worried they won't have enough to get an indictment, considering the girls' bodies haven't been found.

Always felt the answer lied in the families activities-shame those poor girls suffered because of the parents drug addiction/ripping off dealers.

According to a 30-page affidavit handed out at today's news conference, the investigation took a fresh turn with the rediscovery of some evidence in possession of the Craig County Sheriff's Office pertaining to an insurance card that was found at the scene of the crime. The card belonged to a woman who was once a girlfriend of Welch. Interviews and re-interviews with her led to the development of Welch, Pennington and Busick as suspects in the case.

Through the woman, authorities found other witnesses, primarily additional women who were girlfriends at one time to Welch and Pennington, who allegedly said they heard the suspects indicating their involvement in the Freeman murders and the abduction of the girls.

The witnesses indicated that the girls had been held in a house in Picher, where Welch at one time lived, and that some Polaroid photos had been taken of them duct-taped to chairs and lying on a bed together with their hands and feet bound. The witnesses also allegedly heard the suspects talking about the crime and about how the girls had been raped and tortured.

Yikes. My question is, how did these guys know the Freemans? Was it a random crime? Were they stalking the girls? Were they drug dealers who were after the father and just took the girls on a whim?

Yikes. My question is, how did these guys know the Freemans? Was it a random crime? Were they stalking the girls? Were they drug dealers who were after the father and just took the girls on a whim?

Multiple people told investigators that both Welch and Pennington been dealt methamphetamine, according to the affidavit. One person reportedly told investigators that Pennington had said that Freeman and Bible had entered a room where the Freeman parents were buying drugs on the night of the crime.

https://www.fox23.com/news/suspect-in-custody-in-ashley-freeman-laura-bible-case/736951734

Well this is certainly a surprise...to me at least. I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that while I've been following this case for years, I eventually became one of those people who started to wonder if maybe the girls perished in the fire and were just never discovered.

Not possible. Human bones will not disintegrate completely in a house fire (especially in the modern fire-proofing era). You need temps of around 1400°F to achieve that. Investigators would have definitely found skeletal remains.

This is why I always knew the girls left the scene, and I'd always suspected they were taken as "loot" by some sickos. I never bought the "voluntarily disappeared" theory because there's no way they could remain anonymous this long, especially in the Internet age. And, for forensic reasons, I never believed they died in the fire.

That, plus the people who have apparently known all along what supposedly happened and never came forward...just the lowest of the low.

Cheers,
Matt

Probably through fear-it seems witnesses have been threatened.

From everything I'm reading, the police did not see or find the polaroid photos, it's just that they've heard people talk about seeing them. I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but it kind of reminds me of the Ellender case where the "witnesses" claim to have seen a video tape of the murder (which never surfaced). I'm also confused as to why the alleged motive for the crime was the 2 girls simply walking in on their parents buying drugs. That motive just doesn't make any sense.

From everything I'm reading, the police did not see or find the polaroid photos, it's just that they've heard people talk about seeing them. I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but it kind of reminds me of the Ellender case where the "witnesses" claim to have seen a video tape of the murder (which never surfaced). I'm also confused as to why the alleged motive for the crime was the 2 girls simply walking in on their parents buying drugs. That motive just doesn't make any sense.

Murder doesn't have to be logical. Especially with drugs involved.

Murder doesn't have to be logical. Especially with drugs involved.

A drug debt being owed makes much more sense than killing the parents with a shotgun and torching the trailer just because the 2 girls walked in on a drug deal.

A drug debt being owed makes much more sense than killing the parents with a shotgun and torching the trailer just because the 2 girls walked in on a drug deal.

I definitely agree on that.

FYI, this article contains a link to the 30-page affidavit for Busick's arrest warrant and goes into more detail about what allegedly happened:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/update-teens-in-cold-case-kidnapped-raped-and-strangled-document/article_b848a994-ef09-50df-83c6-7193ee3e928a.html

The Bibles kept the family Christmas tree up so Lauria could take it down when she got home. Lorene Bible said the tree fell apart in 2006.



These poor people.

These poor people.

I was just reading that and thinking the exact same thing :(

I'm glad the families are finally going to get some closure. But officially knowing the hell the girls went through during those multiple days before they were killed has to just add a whole slew of terror they'll never be able to get out of their heads.

These men are the lowest of low. On top of all the unspeakable things they did to Ashley and Lauria, to refer to them as 'the two b*tches' several years later and hang their missing person poster up as a badge of honor is so over the top evil, it kills me that they were able to remain free for as long as they did.

And for the men to say "if they wouldn’t have taken off running, they would still be alive," is such a load of crap. On top of the victim blaming, are we really supposed to believe that had the girls just stood still after the parents were shot that the men would have made no effort to rape and kill them?

And for the men to say "if they wouldn’t have taken off running, they would still be alive," is such a load of crap. On top of the victim blaming, are we really supposed to believe that had the girls just stood still after the parents were shot that the men would have made no effort to rape and kill them?

Exactly. At "best," they would've killed them there, instead of kidnapping them. But chances are, unless the girls would not have been there, that night, the exact same thing that DID happen to them is what would've happened. :mad:

I read the affidavit in its entirety.

I absolutely think that what is being proposed is what happened to these poor girls. I believe the Polaroids existed at one point, although they are gone now.

Proving the case against this guy, however, is going to be a bugger. I have never read an affidavit with so much hearsay in my life. I'm frankly struggling to see how the State is going to be able to prove the case against the Defendant. Sure, they have enough to charge him, but we all know the rules change after a defendant has been charged. The standard isn't probable cause anymore-- it's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

You all know how pro-prosecution I am. But even *I* was raising my eyebrows at parts of the affidavit....there were excerpts that were literally double and triple hearsay...

I'm reading it, now. They actually f***ing interviewed Welch in 2003?!

Proving the case against this guy, however, is going to be a bugger. I have never read an affidavit with so much hearsay in my life. I'm frankly struggling to see how the State is going to be able to prove the case against the Defendant.

Only a layman’s perspective here, but I was thinking the same thing when I read it.

Matt

Multiple people told investigators that both Welch and Pennington been dealt methamphetamine, according to the affidavit. One person reportedly told investigators that Pennington had said that Freeman and Bible had entered a room where the Freeman parents were buying drugs on the night of the crime.

https://www.fox23.com/news/suspect-in-custody-in-ashley-freeman-laura-bible-case/736951734


Wow. If the parents were users (and ripped off a dealer or dealers), that certainly puts a whole new spin on things (even the shooting of their son by the local Sheriff)

Only a layman’s perspective here, but I was thinking the same thing when I read it.

Matt

Damn it, Matt, that avatar picture is killing me, even in a thread this serious. :lol:

I read the affidavit in its entirety.

I absolutely think that what is being proposed is what happened to these poor girls. I believe the Polaroids existed at one point, although they are gone now.

Proving the case against this guy, however, is going to be a bugger. I have never read an affidavit with so much hearsay in my life. I'm frankly struggling to see how the State is going to be able to prove the case against the Defendant. Sure, they have enough to charge him, but we all know the rules change after a defendant has been charged. The standard isn't probable cause anymore-- it's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

You all know how pro-prosecution I am. But even *I* was raising my eyebrows at parts of the affidavit....there were excerpts that were literally double and triple hearsay...

Well that probably explains why nothing was done about these guys even though it sounds like they had connected them to the crime many years ago.

It doesn't matter what you know, only what you can show...

Well that probably explains why nothing was done about these guys even though it sounds like they had connected them to the crime many years ago.

It doesn't matter what you know, only what you can show...

Not to armchair Quarterback, but... I'm about to armchair quarterback:

Their chances of a freaking conviction in this matter was way better, you know, when the other two co-defendants were alive. All this guy has to do to get acquitted (in my opinion) is keep his damn mouth shut and/or blame the other two-- they're dead. They can't defend themselves like they could if they had charged the case when all three (or at least two of them) were alive.

I need to re-read the affidavit, but it seems to me that things could have been followed up on before both co-defendants died. I'm sure the Freeman/Bible family are happy to have some answers, but I would want an explanation for why it took so dang long. And I'd want a good one.

Not to armchair Quarterback, but... I'm about to armchair quarterback:

Their chances of a freaking conviction in this matter was way better, you know, when the other two co-defendants were alive. All this guy has to do to get acquitted (in my opinion) is keep his damn mouth shut and/or blame the other two-- they're dead. They can't defend themselves like they could if they had charged the case when all three (or at least two of them) were alive.

I need to re-read the affidavit, but it seems to me that things could have been followed up on before both co-defendants died. I'm sure the Freeman/Bible family are happy to have some answers, but I would want an explanation for why it took so dang long. And I'd want a good one.


I'd want answers as to why that box of evidence was sitting in the Sheriff's office and only turned over when a new one took office.

Not to armchair Quarterback, but... I'm about to armchair quarterback:

Their chances of a freaking conviction in this matter was way better, you know, when the other two co-defendants were alive. All this guy has to do to get acquitted (in my opinion) is keep his damn mouth shut and/or blame the other two-- they're dead. They can't defend themselves like they could if they had charged the case when all three (or at least two of them) were alive.

I need to re-read the affidavit, but it seems to me that things could have been followed up on before both co-defendants died. I'm sure the Freeman/Bible family are happy to have some answers, but I would want an explanation for why it took so dang long. And I'd want a good one.

Things could've absolutely been followed up on, well before the others died. One of the investigators says, in the affidavit, that law enforcement told him to stop investigating, because he was "interfering," or they'd pull his license. The way this affidavit reads, he and the other PI were there only ones actually doing any investigating until like 2013 or so.

Damn it, Matt, that avatar picture is killing me, even in a thread this serious. :lol:

We could use a little levity, considering! :)

Cheers,
Matt

We could use a little levity, considering! :)

Cheers,
Matt

Every time I see it, I get "Ice Cream Man" by Van Halen stuck in my head :lol:

So the parents are involved in drugs? I mean one of the main theories was that the dad was involved in drugs but not both of them


Honestly what happened seems very close to the theories brought about here

https://www.facebook.com/pix11news/posts/10156517617632042

Private Investigators Allegedly Told To Stop Investigating the Case

Throughout the interviews, the OSBI and DA investigators learned a private investigative team had also begun an investigation immediately following the incident.

Joe Dugan, a private investigator living in Miami, OK, and his partner Tom Pryor had interviewed several people and discovered one of Welch's ex-girlfriends' car insurance verification form near the Freeman's burned down house.

The vehicle the insurance card was registered to was thought to be the car the men were driving when they kidnapped the girls.

When the OSBI/DA team went looking for the Dugan and Pryor, they discovered Dugan had died in 2009.

Pryor told them Dugan's family tried to give the files on the Freeman case to the Craig County Sheriff's Office, but that the sheriff's office refused to take them at the time.

Eventually the family destroyed the records.

Pryor also said he was told by law enforcement to stop investigating the case.

What a botched job LE did in this case.

https://www.facebook.com/pix11news/posts/10156517617632042

Some of these 12 people mentioned in the article may have come forth. The jail house snitches who came forth a year or two after the crime claimed to have been at a party at a meth house on New Year’s Eve where the girls were being held captive. They claimed there was a video tape. Maybe their account was truthful.

Does anyone think Jeremy Jones could have been involved in some way or known what happened to the girls?

Jones claimed he went to the Freeman house to collect drug money for a man named Charlie. But he ended up killing the parents and kidnapping the girls. Jones was arrested 10 miles away from the residence the night of the murders on other charges. He wouldn’t have had time to kill the Freemans, set the fire, kidnap the girls, kill them, and dispose of their bodies.

Is it possible he knew the guys who were responsible and knew what happened? The accused made/sold methampetamine and Jones used meth. Jones said their bodies were put in a well and news articles are reporting the girls were disposed of in ‘a pit in Pilcher.’ The name Charlie doesn’t match up, but it’s easy to see why he’d lie about that. Jones’ story sounds similar to what probably happened.

I'm getting more and more angry reading the latest news articles on this.

This sort of reminds me of the Michigan hunters murders from 1985 and the fact that the terrible human beings who killed them spent almost another two decades free despite years and years of bragging to the locals about the horrible things they had done...all through threats of intimidation. :mad:

Here's a complete timeline from the night of the fire until now....

http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/a-timeline-of-the-case-of-missing-welch-girls-ashley/collection_d963d406-885f-5944-b9cd-c2cb0df59eb2.html#22

I'm getting more and more angry reading the latest news articles on this.

This sort of reminds me of the Michigan hunters murders from 1985 and the fact that the terrible human beings who killed them spent almost another two decades free despite years and years of bragging to the locals about the horrible things they had done...all through threats of intimidation. :mad:

Here's a complete timeline from the night of the fire until now....

http://www.tulsaworld.com/photovideo/slideshows/a-timeline-of-the-case-of-missing-welch-girls-ashley/collection_d963d406-885f-5944-b9cd-c2cb0df59eb2.html#22

Thanks for posting the timeline. I couldn’t find any articles from 2001-2002 that mentioned the jailhouse informant. The timeline says the informant’s info led LE to search the home of Paul Glover. He hasn’t been mentioned in any of the updates, so maybe the jailhouse tip(s) were just coincidentally similar to what actually happened.

The informant(s) and Jeremy Jones confession were discussed in an old True Crime Garage poscast episode, and I think their research was usually reliable.

Details are coming out in this case that make LE look functionally challenged. I think similar details will one day come out in the Jameson family deaths. I would hate to go missing or be the victim in an unexplained death in OK.

I read the book about the MI hunters. It was repulsive the way those brothers were able to run the community for years. Living in a neighborhood and being terrorized by someone like that is a secret fear of mine. But the victims weren’t very sympathetic characters after I read the book (of course the didn’t deserve their fate, regardless of their behaviors).

Law enforcement may have done their job poorly but lets not forget the main people to blame. The parents. Their dabbling in drugs got their daughter and another girl killed. They were scum

Law enforcement may have done their job poorly but lets not forget the main people to blame. The parents. Their dabbling in drugs got their daughter and another girl killed. They were scum

I think the main people to blame are the killers.

Do we know if Kathy Freeman was involved with drugs?

But, yes, I agree Danny Freeman should bear some of the blame for having meth dealers around his family (if that is what happened).

I think the main people to blame are the killers.

Do we know if Kathy Freeman was involved with drugs?

But, yes, I agree Danny Freeman should bear some of the blame for having meth dealers around his family (if that is what happened).


The blame lies 100% with the killers, not the parents.

The blame lies 100% with the killers, not the parents.

Yeah, let's not get into victim blaming, here.

I read the book about the MI hunters. It was repulsive the way those brothers were able to run the community for years. Living in a neighborhood and being terrorized by someone like that is a secret fear of mine. But the victims weren’t very sympathetic characters after I read the book (of course the didn’t deserve their fate, regardless of their behaviors).

I finally read the book a few months ago out of curiosity because it was sort of a "local" case for me, about three hours north. I was 5 years old at the time. True, the hunters had too much to drink and really acted like idiots as a result...but I wouldn't wish their fate on anyone.

But back on topic, that case, this one and many others are kind of an eye opening problem in very rural areas, I fear. I'm almost afraid to know how many are out there - these country bumpkin maniacs who kill, rape, torture and do all these horrible things to people who they feel have crossed them. And then to have the confidence and arrogance to brag about doing these things to locals year after year, and then threaten them if they say anything about it to anyone, because the population is so small and their local police department probably consists of a couple officers.

Look at Beverly Noe and Ida Prewitt and all the things they got away with for so long. The examples could be endless. It's a scary thought.

It's a weird sensation to go back and watch a segment involving a cold case once it's finally been solved or we finally have access to some information. With this, it's two particular quotes from investigators that are kind of hard to stomach now.

On the possibility of the murders being set up because of a drug deal gone bad, Agent Nutter said...

“If you wanted to consider that it was drug related, nothing fits correctly. The very last thing that the people who committed the murder would want to do would be to abduct the children.”

Talk about a swing and a miss. That comment seemed surprising before but sounds downright stupid now. If these guys killed the parents and the girls bodies weren't inside the rubble, what made Nutter think that abduction would be the last possible thing these killers would do?

Also this quote from Captain Jim Herman on the possibility of the girls murdering the parents and running away...

“There was a great deal of friction in the Freeman household. Danny and his daughter did not get along well at all and hadn’t for some time. That’s something we can’t overlook.”

On one hand, this isn't as stupid as the other detective's comment because the case was just 15 months old at the time and I understand investigators have to look at all possibilities. But on the other hand, it's still cringe worthy now knowing the utter hell the girls went through during their final days. As people brought up here long ago, the runaway theory was always suspect at best since it would have involved them leaving behind their money and cars. And a teenager not getting along with her dad is not exactly a rare thing.

Damn.

I thought they were possibly lost amongst the rubble. Absolutely disgusting to hear what happened.

RIP to both of them

Yeah, let's not get into victim blaming, here.



It’s not victim blaming it’s pointing out they were awful parents

Never in my wildest dreams did I think we'd get arrests in the bible/Freeman and EAR cases in the same week.

Outstanding!

So far neither the bodies nor the Polaroids have turned up. Apparently the many witnesses who described the Polaroids kept silent from fear.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/disappearance-of-two-okla-girls-stumped-police-for-18-years-then-they-learned-about-the-polaroids/ar-AAwm7hL?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

It’s not victim blaming it’s pointing out they were awful parents

Actually, it's the very definition of "victim blaming" to say that they are 1-100% responsible for the fate of the girls.

Lemme break it down, Barney-style:

"Victim" is a person who is killed or otherwise injured in a crime. A crime being committed by a person known as "a criminal."

"Blaming" occurs when someone implies that responsibility for something lies with one or more people.

Now, yes, you can make the argument that her parents are also criminals, due to whatever possible drug activity that may have been occurring. However that, in and of itself, does not mean they were knowingly placing the girls (or themselves, for that matter) in danger.

The facts of the matter are this:

Two people were murdered by 1-3 criminals.

Two teenage girls were abducted by 1-3 criminals.

Two teenage girls were raped and subjected to unknown horrors while held as prisoners by these 1-3 criminals.

Two teenage girls were murdered by 1-3 criminals.

In summation, the murder victims (i.e. the four people murdered by these s***birds) are, by even the most lax definition of the word, "victims." And
assigning guilt in the situation to any or all of them is, by definition, "victim blaming."

Actually, it's the very definition of "victim blaming" to say that they are 1-100% responsible for the fate of the girls.

Lemme break it down, Barney-style:

"Victim" is a person who is killed or otherwise injured in a crime. A crime being committed by a person known as "a criminal."

"Blaming" occurs when someone implies that responsibility for something lies with one or more people.

Now, yes, you can make the argument that her parents are also criminals, due to whatever possible drug activity that may have been occurring. However that, in and of itself, does not mean they were knowingly placing the girls (or themselves, for that matter) in danger.

The facts of the matter are this:

Two people were murdered by 1-3 criminals.

Two teenage girls were abducted by 1-3 criminals.

Two teenage girls were raped and subjected to unknown horrors while held as prisoners by these 1-3 criminals.

Two teenage girls were murdered by 1-3 criminals.

In summation, the murder victims (i.e. the four people murdered by these s***birds) are, by even the most lax definition of the word, "victims." And
assigning guilt in the situation to any or all of them is, by definition, "victim blaming."

:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

It’s not victim blaming it’s pointing out they were awful parents


They were flawed parents. They made some mistakes. Everyone is flawed and makes mistakes. Some just have far more dire outcomes than others.

The blame falls on the killers.

I'm going to jump in and say this: Danny's lifestyle put his family and Lauria Bible in harm's way. No, they did not deserve to be murdered, yet think of it, if Danny didn't lead that lifestyle, this would have never happened. Shane was killed trying to appease his controlling father. Obviously this cannot be changed, but think about this for a minute. It's kind of hard to have sympathy for Danny, although I'm trying to. I feel more awful for the females involved. The Vinita police department bungled this case and don't be surprised if their involvement is the next thing that comes to light.

After watching this segment again recently, I'm annoyed by how much the "police were involved" theory gets played up in the segment. They do mention the officers taking polygraphs and passing, but they still have that weird remark from Danny's brother about if he dies, the police did it. And they mention Shane's death too as if that would be some kind of precursor to a motive. Which makes no sense.

It’s not victim blaming it’s pointing out they were awful parents

Agreed. How is it victim blaming by pointing out what a scumbag Danny was? Had Danny been a law abiding citizen would Ashley and Lauria been abducted, raped and murdered by the men in Danny's house that night? I highly doubt it. I call into question now the entire circumstances surrounding Shanes death. Danny now needs to be considered as a factor in why Shane had the encounter with police that ended in his death.

Danny is no victim. He played a major role in the deaths of his wife, both children and the daughters friend. Stop with the "blaming the victims" nonsense.

Agreed. How is it victim blaming by pointing out what a scumbag Danny was? Had Danny been a law abiding citizen would Ashley and Lauria been abducted, raped and murdered by the men in Danny's house that night? I highly doubt it. I call into question now the entire circumstances surrounding Shanes death. Danny now needs to be considered as a factor in why Shane had the encounter with police that ended in his death.

Danny is no victim. He played a major role in the deaths of his wife, both children and the daughters friend. Stop with the "blaming the victims" nonsense.

Don't give me this "law abiding citizen" s***. I guarantee you that virtually NOBODY on this board is a "law abiding citizen." Or can you tell me you've never gone even one mile an hour over the speed limit? Or had a drink of beer before you were of age? Or maybe been around someone who was smoking a joint, without turning them in. Or maybe even participated in smoking that joint?

There's a big difference between someone using drugs and someone being a dangerous criminal mastermind. Unless Danny blew his wife's face off with a shotgun, then used it on himself, he is a victim.

Don't give me this "law abiding citizen" s***. I guarantee you that virtually NOBODY on this board is a "law abiding citizen." Or can you tell me you've never gone even one mile an hour over the speed limit? Or had a drink of beer before you were of age? Or maybe been around someone who was smoking a joint, without turning them in. Or maybe even participated in smoking that joint?

There's a big difference between someone using drugs and someone being a dangerous criminal mastermind. Unless Danny blew his wife's face off with a shotgun, then used it on himself, he is a victim.

You done being all hysterical? I guess you aren't that bright if you think comparing something like traffic violations in regards to drug dealing as being law abiding. Law abiding people don't get involved in drug dealing. Take a step back from whatever world you live and understand what law abiding is before you get all hysterical again. Maybe you can defend Danny's legacy at trial when his "estate" is sued by the other family for being complicit in her death. Not to mention his wife, daughter and son. Nice legacy Danny left. Yeah, the poor victim that he was. :crazy:

You done being all hysterical? I guess you aren't that bright if you think comparing something like traffic violations in regards to drug dealing as being law abiding. Law abiding people don't get involved in drug dealing. Take a step back from whatever world you live and understand what law abiding is before you get all hysterical again. Maybe you can defend Danny's legacy at trial when his "estate" is sued by the other family for being complicit in her death. Not to mention his wife, daughter and son. Nice legacy Danny left. Yeah, the poor victim that he was. :crazy:

Hysterical? Hardly. And when it comes to "traffic violations," do you realize how many people are killed every year in high speed accidents, in this country? More than are killed by guns, and everyone's going nuts over that, currently. When these people die in an accident, are they victims? Or are they "scumbags?"

How nice of you to resort to personal attacks against me, my intelligence, and my mental state, upon me pointing out the flaws in your original statement.

I'm surprised you consider his son to be a "victim," here, despite the fact that he literally was a criminal, and was shot and killed by law enforcement. It seems that someone like you, who obviously "isn't that bright," would consider him a scumbag, who deserved to die.

You done being all hysterical? I guess you aren't that bright if you think comparing something like traffic violations in regards to drug dealing as being law abiding. Law abiding people don't get involved in drug dealing. Take a step back from whatever world you live and understand what law abiding is before you get all hysterical again. Maybe you can defend Danny's legacy at trial when his "estate" is sued by the other family for being complicit in her death. Not to mention his wife, daughter and son. Nice legacy Danny left. Yeah, the poor victim that he was. :crazy:


How much more of a price do you think he should pay, since dying wasn't enough?

How nice of you to resort to personal attacks against me, my intelligence, and my mental state, upon me pointing out the flaws in your original statement.

I'm surprised you consider his son to be a "victim," here, despite the fact that he literally was a criminal, and was shot and killed by law enforcement. It seems that someone like you, who obviously "isn't that bright," would consider him a scumbag, who deserved to die.

Stop acting all offended you know it all fraud. I never said Shane wasn't a criminal. He was a young man doing the bidding of his father. It cost him his life. Instead of Danny feeling guilt over this, he used his sons death as a winning lotto ticket.

Feel free to get all hysterical again over me pointing out Danny was not a victim.

He was a young man doing the bidding of his father. It cost him his life.

You, of course, have evidence of that, right? Oh, wait...I'm sorry. You were sick the day they taught law at law school, right?

He was a criminal, and he paid with his life. Thus, not a victim. At least that's how your viewpoint tells it.

You, of course, have evidence of that, right? Oh, wait...I'm sorry. You were sick the day they taught law at law school, right?

He was a criminal, and he paid with his life. Thus, not a victim. At least that's how your viewpoint tells it.

Run along now son. Your willful ignorance is appalling. Its a good thing I have such a high IQ and can afford to lose a few points. Because after engaging you in conversation I definitely have had a few points shaved off.:lol:

Can't we just engage in meaningful discussion without resorting to personal attacks?

Run along now son. Your willful ignorance is appalling. Its a good thing I have such a high IQ and can afford to lose a few points. Because after engaging you in conversation I definitely have had a few points shaved off.:lol:

You know, it's funny. I've got a 153 IQ. I don't feel the need to flaunt that. But I suppose when someone is a fraud, like yourself, they feel the need to inflate their ego a bit. Or, in your case, a lot.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.18173-12/30957351_10155937933177561_1046069370_n.png?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeEaEOapfctKy77lGJkGNsaRr_CTrSfbT88BT1Y0XMKw6W2mB4n5Uvy6J4glRtBdGdI6wU_NTQTXtMIyGFZdJahGtIkayUKvk7DdhiUkPTUgyA&oh=698b7e0c31716898bb579300a443bd9d&oe=5AE95663

Can't we just engage in meaningful discussion without resorting to personal attacks?

Evidently not.

You know, it's funny. I've got a 153 IQ. I don't feel the need to flaunt that. But I suppose when someone is a fraud, like yourself, they feel the need to inflate their ego a bit. Or, in your case, a lot.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.18173-12/30957351_10155937933177561_1046069370_n.png?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeEaEOapfctKy77lGJkGNsaRr_CTrSfbT88BT1Y0XMKw6W2mB4n5Uvy6J4glRtBdGdI6wU_NTQTXtMIyGFZdJahGtIkayUKvk7DdhiUkPTUgyA&oh=698b7e0c31716898bb579300a443bd9d&oe=5AE95663

:wave: :crazy:

Clearly this is a Lost Loves segment.

Clearly this is a Lost Loves segment.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Can't we just engage in meaningful discussion without resorting to personal attacks?

I'd sure like to think so. Every once in a while, though, someone likes to test that theory.

But anyway...

Maybe this will cheer everyone up?

https://media.giphy.com/media/2YeheNa7pHNTSPH60A/giphy.gif

Maybe this will cheer everyone up?

https://media.giphy.com/media/2YeheNa7pHNTSPH60A/giphy.gif

You are addicted to that clip. LOL.

Maybe this will cheer everyone up?

https://media.giphy.com/media/2YeheNa7pHNTSPH60A/giphy.gif

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You're the best, dad! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are addicted to that clip. LOL.

I'm crying real tears every time I see it.

Stop acting all offended you know it all fraud. I never said Shane wasn't a criminal. He was a young man doing the bidding of his father. It cost him his life. Instead of Danny feeling guilt over this, he used his sons death as a winning lotto ticket.

Feel free to get all hysterical again over me pointing out Danny was not a victim.


You do realize that Shane wasn't even living with his parents when he was killed, right? And that he hadn't even seen them for over a month before he died? That a number of locals offer Shane a ride when he was standing next to that disabled truck even though they knew he was wanted in connection with the break ins? That the break ins were as much about getting food and taking a shower as they were about taking things? I feel confident in saying that Danny did not send his son out to break into houses for a shower and a sandwich and a little pocket money.

You do realize that Shane wasn't even living with his parents when he was killed, right? And that he hadn't even seen them for over a month before he died? That a number of locals offer Shane a ride when he was standing next to that disabled truck even though they knew he was wanted in connection with the break ins? That the break ins were as much about getting food and taking a shower as they were about taking things? I feel confident in saying that Danny did not send his son out to break into houses for a shower and a sandwich and a little pocket money.

Shhh....don't confuse poor Biff with all these facts, Necco. He's lost far too many IQ points, today. He's liable to go catatonic.

That, plus the people who have apparently known all along what supposedly happened and never came forward...just the lowest of the low.

Cheers,
MattTalk about a conspiracy of silence :(