The recent discussion about teen suicide episodes made me recall an early case involving a teenage girl who supposedly shot and killed herself in front of her boyfriend's house. I only saw this segment one time (when UM was still on NBC) and don't know if it has ever been shown on Lifetime. As I remember it, the girl had been arguing with her boyfriend then went outside and shot herself by her car. The girl's parents were convinced someone else pulled the trigger. Does anyone else remember this case?

Hi! Yes I remember that one. Her name was Rae Ann Mosser. I tend to think she committed suicide. I know the parents didn't believe that, but it seemed more logical than anything else they brought up in the segment. She had just had a confrontation with her boyfriend who apparently didn't want to see her anymore and according to him she said "what do I have to do to prove my love for you, kill myself?" Then she just happens to be found shot just a house or so away from her boyfriends soon after making that comment. What are your thoughts on this case guys?

Well, that's what the boyfriend said. I tend to believe she didn't, since I remember that expert holding the rifle she supposedly shot herself with and making it virtually impossible for her to have held that rifle to her head and pulled the trigger, since her arms weren't long enough. I think they actually changed the cause of death from suicide to unknown, if memory serves me.

If I recall correctly, the shotgun was lying on the hood of the car? Why would a murderer leave the murder weapon on the hood of the victims car? Seems ridculous to me. Also, if it was a murder, it would most likely have been spur of the moment, opportunity crime. A killer after shooting someone, wouldnt have had time to think up scenerios regarding making it look like suicide, and leave the rifle laying like that. They would have quickly attempted to discard the murder weapon. I do believe it was suicide.

Weird... I was just thinking about this case the other day. It was very good and I don't think it has ever been on Lifetime.

I agree that the way they said she killed herself is bunk. Her arms weren't anywhere near long enough to have pulled the trigger with the gun to her head.

I have no idea what happened but if it was suicide she needed help doing it (yes, I know that makes it murder).

They showed this case within the last few weeks. Here is my question: can a person shoot themselves with a shotgun or not??? Why is this so hard to determine? I have no experience w/ guns so I have no opinion other than wondering why its so hard to say yes or no wether it can be done. If she DID shoot herself its possible the gun landed on the car after the blast. Weirder things have happened...anyone have any info on the shotgun theory and suicides? Wasnt this the same argument in Kurt Cobains death?

I just watched this case on Crystaldawn's collection, volume 3, and I don't know. Rae Ann's parents had two different independent forensics experts evaluate the autopsy records and the crime scene information, one of whom was the state medical examiner in North Carolina at the time, and both concluded that, contrary to what the Roanoke city autopsy had reported, the wound was NOT a contact wound. Given the size of the gun, I would have to believe that any self-inflicted wound would have to be a contact wound. This leads me to conclude it was murder.

However, the only possible suspect, it would seem, is the boyfriend, whose name is never given in the segment. It would be totally unbelievable to think that someone was waiting for her out in the bushes, only to shoot her with a shotgun, leave it on the boyfriend's car, and then jet. It was mentioned in the segment that 3 witnesses heard Rae Ann saying she would kill herself moments before the gun was fired. I'd like to know who those three witnesses were (presumably one was the boyfriend himself). The other piece of evidence that I would think indispensible here, but which the segment never gives, is anything about where the gun came from. I suspect this is because it belonged to the victim or her family, and so would tend to make the case less mysterious, and hence less interesting.

I'm not sure what to think, to be honest. If it's not a contact wound, I don't see how it could be self-inflicted to more or less the center of her chest. However, if the gun belonged to her or her family --- if, in other words, she brought it herself to the scene --- it would be hard to imagine that she was not the one who ultimately used it to end her own life. I still think it's possible the boyfriend did it (if you watch the segment closely, it is implied, at any rate, that the police respond to the sound of a gun shot in the area --- in other words, they did not respond to a phone call from anyone; it seems to me if it were my girlfriend who had just threatened suicide at the top of her lungs, and then moments later I heard the gun shot, that I would have called the police). Tough case.

I tend to think that it was foul play. I need to watch the segment again to confirm this, but I thought that the angle the bullet entered Rae Ann didn't match with the evidence... something about Rae Ann's arms being too short to pull it off. I've heard of cases where people have pulled the trigger of a shotgun with their toes, but I don't think it was a question in this case...

I personally dont think that Rae Ann Mossor killed herself. I mean okay, lets say for a minute that she really did fire that shotgun and killed herself (even though her arms werent long enough) how could the gun fall on the trunk of the car without falling to the ground? I just c ant believe the gun wouldnt fall to the ground if she had actually shot herself. She did have powder burns I believe but they werent in the same way they would be had she pulled the trigger, I think the forensic expert said this makes it more likely that she was trying to grab the gun away from someone when they fired it. Also how her car doors were open and the car running with the stereo blaring. I mean what did she do, start up her car, turn on the stereo and then suddenly think "gee I better kill myself." It just doesnt make sense. Also that gun, was it registered to her or her parents? Where did it come from? I think UM left out some stuff but I also think the Roanoke Police botched this pretty good by jumping to the suicide conclusion almost immediately and refusing to change their minds, it just reeked of a cover up. Rae Ann was planning on joining the Navy according to the segment and she just had a lot of things going for her and she wanted to do in her life.

Yes, these are the same reasons I was thinking there was a good chance it was murder myself, although the fact that the UM segment never mentions anything about the gun --- where it came from, who it was registered to, etc. --- makes me wonder. I know UM wants to make things seem mysterious, and I think sometimes they can be a little overzealous, trying to make things look more mysterious than they really are. If that gun belonged to Rae Ann or her family, it makes it a heck of a lot more likely that she killed herself, somehow.

I think LooksLikeCRicci's point about the possibility she used her foot to fire the gun is an interesting one: this would explain, perhaps, why she held the barrel of the gun, as kadrmas15 reminded us. If she discovered her arms were not long enough to pull the trigger, she may have decided to rest the gun on the trunk of her car, then try to use her foot to pull the trigger. In order to steady the gun, she held the barrel firmly in front of her while she attempted this move. This scenario, I think, would account for the crime scene, except for one thing: if she used her foot to pull the trigger, wouldn't she have had to take one of her shoes off? If the body was found with both shoes on (and I don't remember any mention of that being the case), then this scenario, I think, goes down the tubes.

Well I'll go against the norm here because initially I thought Rae Ann was murdered but in the times I've seen this segment over the years I now tend to think she killed herself. The fact that UM didn't make a point to mention who the gun belonged to makes me think it probably belonged to her or her parents. After all that would be something UM would mention if it was unknown who the gun belonged to. It seemed to be a fairly populated street as far as houses go and if there were some sort of altercation out in the road by her car surely the neighbors would have heard something and told police. She was upset that her boyfriend no longer wanted to see her and even made the comment about killing herself (the boyfriend claimed). She probably could have rigged up the shotgun to kill herself which would explain why it wasn't a contact wound. After all if the gun did belong to her family and Rae Ann was carrying it around in her car that goes to the fact that suicide could have been something she was contamplating. I mean who would keep a shotgun in a car for protection? In this case it just seems easier to believe that Rae Ann was depressed because of her breakup and whatever else and decided to end her life than that someone happened to confront her that night, shot her with their gun and than left the gun there and fled.

I agree that the idea that just anyone shot Rae Ann is highly suspect; if it was a murder, there is really only one viable candidate: her boyfriend. Perhaps this, more than any other reason, is why it was ruled a suicide. If the police had some information not presented in the UM segment that would positively rule out the boyfriend's involvement, then it seems unlikely that her death was anything other than suicide.

This is the case that inspired me to look at UM a lot differently - Initially I believed that Rae Ann Mosser was murdered and that her parents were the victims of some huge injustice. But I actually began to talk to Crystaldawn about this and she caused me to see this case in a much more logical fashion.

Rae Ann's mother's big reason for her daughter not being able to commit suicide was "Rae had too much of my temperment to commit suicide" - when looked at closely that statement makes little or no sense. We all know that when people are upset at something or someone they behave in ways that their friends and family would've thought impossible and thats what happened here.

There is no chance in my mind that after Rae threatened to kill herself to her former boyfriend that some strangers crept out of the darkness, accosted her in her car (which was still parked only a few feet away from her BF's home) got the shotgun that was conveinetly in the back seat and shot her.

I highly doubt the boyfriend had anything to do with Rae Ann's death because as far as we know he has no known motive to kill her. He didn't want anything to do with her anymore and kicked her to the curb. Now if there is a possibility that Rae Ann was going to reveal some information to some other people about her BF that he didn't want others to know - that would be a motive - But that is just speculation at best.

So what we have is a girl who according to the last person who saw her alive, was heartbroken, in hysterics, threatening to kill herself winding up shot to death (with a gun that just happened to be in the back seat of her vehicle) just moments after a heated argument with her former BF.

It sounds to me, that Rae Ann Mosser made the threat to kill herself, was angry enough at her boyfriend to carry it out, was not in her right mind at the time due to being extremely emotional and in a desperate emotional act decided to end her life as a final gesture to her former BF so he'd feel sorry for giving her the push.

This is the case that inspired me to look at UM a lot differently - Initially I believed that Rae Ann Mosser was murdered and that her parents were the victims of some huge injustice. But I actually began to talk to Crystaldawn about this and she caused me to see this case in a much more logical fashion.

Rae Ann's mother's big reason for her daughter not being able to commit suicide was "Rae had too much of my temperment to commit suicide" - when looked at closely that statement makes little or no sense. We all know that when people are upset at something or someone they behave in ways that their friends and family would've thought impossible and thats what happened here.

There is no chance in my mind that after Rae threatened to kill herself to her former boyfriend that some strangers crept out of the darkness, accosted her in her car (which was still parked only a few feet away from her BF's home) got the shotgun that was conveinetly in the back seat and shot her.

I highly doubt the boyfriend had anything to do with Rae Ann's death because as far as we know he has no known motive to kill her. He didn't want anything to do with her anymore and kicked her to the curb. Now if there is a possibility that Rae Ann was going to reveal some information to some other people about her BF that he didn't want others to know - that would be a motive - But that is just speculation at best.

So what we have is a girl who according to the last person who saw her alive, was heartbroken, in hysterics, threatening to kill herself winding up shot to death (with a gun that just happened to be in the back seat of her vehicle) just moments after a heated argument with her former BF.

It sounds to me, that Rae Ann Mosser made the threat to kill herself, was angry enough at her boyfriend to carry it out, was not in her right mind at the time due to being extremely emotional and in a desperate emotional act decided to end her life as a final gesture to her former BF so he'd feel sorry for giving her the push.

I agree with your reasoning here 100%. Indeed, I long ago realized that any statement to the effect of "so-and-so couldn't have committed suicide, he was too nice, too happy, too rich, too incompetent," etc., made by a family member, friend, coworker, psychiatrist, or father confessor about a person who appears to have committed suicide is entirely and 100% irrelevant. No one really knows what anyone else is capable of under extreme circumstances; that is a consequence of the human condition --- we are all, fundamentally, alone. So I never lend any credence to such statements.

The only reason this case gives me pause is that there is a legitimate question about whether or not the deceased had the physical ability to inflict the wound made to her chest. Could she have shot herself in the manner described by forensic pathologists? If the answer is no, that rules out suicide.

I'm not sure that questions has been satisfactorily answered (certainly it wasn't on the UM segment, but then again if they could provide a definitive answer, the segment would never have aired to begin with). Until it is, there is some doubt, though I agree that the highest likelihood (~97% sure on this one) is suicide.

The thing that this case hinges on is the autopsy findings, and, lets face it, one Doctor says it was a contact wound, and the other says she was shot from several feet away (both were done 6months after the body had been buried). This shows that autopsies are not always accurate, and, in my opinion, are not necessarily scientific in all cases. It scares me that so many people have been convicted of crimes based on what the autopsy revealed.

I tend to think Miss. Mosser killed herself, although there are some weird circumstances. It is clear to me the boyfriend is not a suspect, or it would have been alluded to by the police, or the UM segment. In fact, the segment stated, point blank, that there "was no suspect" in this case, which says to me that the boyfriend was eliminated as one.

Overall, I think this is a case of a parent not wanting to accept the fact that their daughter killed herself. Suicide due to unrequited love is not that uncommon, and unfortunately this appears to be a case of that.

Hmm, I still am not convinced this was a suicide. I do feel that the cause of death being labeled as 'undetermined' was the right one, at least for now. Now, the Mossor's did get some pretty good forensic experts on this case. The question is, were their findings legitimate? Or was it a case of hired guns telling their clients what they wanted to hear? To hire these people like Dr. John Butts, Dr. Vincent DiMaio, etc, it would cost thousands of dollars each. Dr. John Butts is still the Chief Medical Examiner for the State of North Carolina. Dr. Vincent DiMaio still does forensic consulting work although he retired as the Bexar County (San Antonio) Texas medical examiner a couple of years ago. They also went to a top firearms expert Robert "R.J." Breglio who is and was one of the top firearms experts in the country.

Now granted, the one that said that it was a contact wound was the local medical examiner whom I am skeptical about. There appeared to me to be yet another case of tunnel vision on the part of the police. It just seemed from the start they thought this was a suicide and once that thought entered their head, that was it, they just closed the door without a thorough investigation. It seems to me the reason the boyfriend was never a suspect was because this case was never viewed as even potentially a homicide, it was viewed as a suicide from the start.

That is pretty convenient for the ol boyfriend to come up with that classic line, 'what do I have to do to prove my love to you, kill myself?' I mean that is nonsense. Also, here is a very important fact, whose gun was this? Was it the Mossor's gun or whose gun was it? The way that gun was laying, there was simply no way that the gun just fell like that, even if you believed that she shot herself. So clearly someone put the gun like that. Were her fingerprints on the gun? Like I said, that just seems a bit too easy to me that she would threaten to kill herself and then take a shot gun, somehow shoot herself in the chest with it, then somehow the gun just got up and walked up onto the trunk of that car.

I got the feeling that the gun was not her parents gun. Very unusual for someone to casually drive around with a .12 gage shotgun in their car in a residential neighborhood. Her car door open, with the keys in the ignition, music blaring from the stereo, it is just very unusual. Gee, I have nothing else better to do, better get a shotgun and kill myself. The cops lied to Rae Ann's parents and said oh an autopsy will be carried out automatically when this did not happen, in fact an autopsy was never even requested.

The local medical examiner, who never wanted to do an autopsy in this case to begin with and seemed put out and annoyed by the whole thing was the one that claimed that the wound to the chest was a 'contact' wound. Whereas the other experts said that the wound was not a contact wound but was fired from several feet away. This could be told by the powder tattooing. Yes one of her hands had gun powder residue on it, however all that indicates is that she was in proximity to where the gun was fired.

The UM site says that when cops arrived, the gun was "lying on the trunk of the car pointed in the direction of where the young lady would have been standing".

IMO, after it's been shot, a 12 gauge shotgun is not going to rest neatly on the trunk of the car, perfectly aligned with where it needs to be pointed to shoot the person.

Every shotgun "kicks" when it's fired. When I first fired a 12 gauge, as a teenager, I had to have the gun firmly pressed against my shoulder and had to have my husband standing right behind me so that we both could absorb the recoil and keep me from landing on my butt after pulling the trigger.

That kind of gun kicks so hard, that many people get large bruises from the butt of the gun. Some people have a recoil pad thingie attached to the butt of the gun to help absorb the force before it gets to their shoulder.

So I guess my concern here is what was the shot gun in Rae Ann's case pressed against? I don't think she could have laid the gun on the trunk of her car, pulled the trigger (with her finger, a stick, a toe, or whatever) and still have the gun end up in the exact perfect shooting position.

In that scenario, accepted by the authorities involved, there was nothing to absorb the recoil of the gun. Rae Ann was supposedly holding it only by the barrel and the trigger. IMO, after it's fired, that thing is going to flip out of her grasp and land in just about any position except the one where it's on the trunk of the car perfectly aimed at her chest.

Also, the UM site says that the police report states this: "Rae Ann’s car was parked directly across the street from where she died."

How can that be correct? They are saying that the body was on one side of the street, and the car, with the shotgun lying on the trunk, was on the opposite side of the street. That's probably a distance of 20 feet (+ or -). That's either a mistake, a misquote, or else Rae Ann was murdered. No one can commit suicide with a gun from a distance of 20 feet.

Hey Tracy, well, her car was across the street, her body was found next to her boyfriend's car. Like I said, what always bothered me about this case was that even if you believed that she was angry about the break-up or whatever which I am sure she was, how can it be explained how the gun was in the position it was found in and her body was in the position it was found in? Now, her body was found facing in the direction down the street, NOT in the direction of her car across the street. Yet the gun was laying perfectly straight on the trunk of her boyfriend's car facing across the street towards her car, not down the street which was in the direction her body was laying in. So we have a problem there.

I can see how you could potentially shoot yourself with a shotgun using your toe. HOWEVER this in my opinion would be very difficult to do in a standing position, it would be easier to do it in a sitting position than a standing position. Further, if she had shot herself, since her body was found on the ground, facing down the street, the gun should have been found on the ground too. Yet it was not. That just bothers me. The police said they found the gun laying perfectly straight on the trunk facing in the direction of Rae Ann's car across the street.

This conclusion would lead me to believe that at the very least someone moved the gun. It just seems weird to me that the gun would be in the position it was in, clearly someone placed it there and I do not think it was Rae Ann that did it. If everything was on the up and up, why move the gun if you are the boyfriend? Again, I just find that pretty incredible that he would come up with that classic quote 'what do I have to do to prove my love to you, kill myself?" I would also be curious who these witnesses were that claimed she said this. Interesting how none of these witnesses including the boyfriend ran after Rae Ann or tried to stop her from allegedly killing herself and in fact, none of these people admitted to seeing her shoot herself.

I say, this is because Rae Ann did not shoot herself. The boyfriend to me is just very suspicious, the whole story is suspicious. I mean, okay, if she had shot herself, like I said, in the direction where her body was found, the gun would not be on top of the car facing in the opposite direction. It just would not be there. I mean, Rae Ann was dead, after she was shot in the chest she could not place the gun that way and then just die. Again, it seems to me, that she was in her car, keys in the ignition, radio on, when she got out of the car to run away from the person with the gun, leaving the door to her car open in her haste, she was then shot. Whoever shot her left the gun in the position it was in on the trunk of the car.

To be honest, I am sort of amazed this thing was labeled as a suicide so quickly. The boyfriends story at best seems flimsy. Normally I am not one to rush to the prosecution side, but there is just something about this case and the boyfriends story that does not seem right. Clearly the gun was moved at the very least, and I just do not know why someone would move it before the police got there unless they were already putting their story in place. Now, the cops arrived 4 minutes after the 911 call was placed. Clearly whoever moved the weapon only had a couple of minutes to get their plan in action. I say the boyfriend shot Rae Ann, then put the gun on the trunk of the car, ran back into his house, called 911.

Like I said, just the way that gun was found, it seems like it was laid on the car in such a way like you would carefully lay a gun down on the ground after firing it. Again, there is just no way that gun just got there or just fell there. Were there any scratches on the gun? Were there any fingerprints on the gun or trigger? I have a feeling none of this stuff was looked at because the cops never considered it a homicide. They just got it in their heads it was a suicide and once that happened, the ability to investigate vanished, the ability to interview suspects vanished since it was a suicide, no suspects. Again, there is just something about this whole case that has always stunk to me.

Not to sound like a male chauvinist pig, ;) but how many women actually have committed suicide with a shotgun?

Pistols yes, but a shotgun is kind of extreme. Granted it could be all that was available to do herself in, but still kind of extreme.

Thanks for that info, Kadrmas. I was under the impression that the gun was on the trunk of Rae Ann's car, but now I understand that it was on the boyfriend's car and that's why her body was found across the street from her car.

Mastermind, I've been trying to think of any suicides that I've heard of where the woman killed herself with a shotgun. All the ones that come to mind were eventually found to be murders, except maybe one.

One that really stands out is that Reeves guy who shot his first wife to death with a shot gun. She was found lying on the bed, naked and barely alive, when the police arrived.

Her death was considered to be suicide until a couple decades later when the next wife (a mail order bride) turned up missing and then discovered murdered by Reeves. That death caused them to reinvestigate the first wife's death.

Then there's that husband who claimed he was cleaning his gun when his wife walked in. He said that he wanted to show it off to her, and show her how great it was looking, when it accidentally went off, shooting her in the chest and killing her. (I think their last name started with N, maybe Niebaum or Niebauer?)

The authorities did a reconstruction of the scene and realized that she had powder burns on her wrists because she saw the shot coming and tried to push the barrel away as the gun fired. Also, the holes in her shirt, bra, and body did not match up. That let the cops to think that she was twisting her body away from the gun at the time it fired. Her family insisted that she hated guns and would not have been handling one in the way her husband claimed.

In the one that I can't remember if it was murder or suicide, I also can't recall the names. Seems like the couple lived in a trailer somewhere in the west. Maybe they were native or mexican, I can't recall that either. But she supposedly sat on the floor, pointed the shotgun at her chest and pulled the trigger with her toe.

Any of those sound familiar?

Okay, I found an article on one of them. The victim was Abigail Niebauer.

http://www.paloaltoonline.com/weekly/morgue/news/1999_Jan_1.MURDER.html

Jack Reeves is the name of the multiple murdering husband with the mail order bride. Her name was Emelita Villa Reeves. The first wife he killed was Sharon Vaughn Reeves. Here's a message board thread about him and the wives he killed. While reading it, I found out that there was a first wife who was only 15, but the marriage was anulled because of her age, and another wife (maybe the third?) who was drowned.

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/archive.php?ac=t&forumid=124593&date=10-05-2006&t=815023-1

Oh yes, good old Jack Reeves. Yeah, Reeves, the type of guy that if you try to leave him, he will kill you. Basically every woman that ever tried to file for divorce from him wound up dead. Reeves, basically his arrogance sunk him eventually. He just figured because he had got away with murder so many times that he would not be arrested. The way his first wife died though, I mean it is easier for me to say now, but it is really amazing to me that death was not viewed more suspiciously. However it was 1978, a different time, the first patrol officer on the scene had suspicions, but the detectives were not interested in hearing it and they compromised the crime scene and the case was closed.

I think the only one that I have seen where a woman killed herself with a shotgun where it was not a homicide, was a case in New Mexico. It was a police officer who actually was falsely accused because I think he and his wife were separated or going through a divorce or something and he was initially arrested for it, but after 8 or 9 months the charges were dropped and he was released. She had done that killing where she had sat on their bed and shot herself with the shotgun by pulling the trigger with her toe. Of course this was a woman who had threatened suicide several times, she basically had said that she wanted to kill herself and frame her husband for it so he could not be with anyone else.

I am trying to think of a few other interesting stories over the years. Remember Mark Winger in Illinois? He was one that got away with killing his wife for several years. That was an interesting case in my mind, because basically, he was having an affair and he wanted to get out of the marriage without a divorce. His wife had had a run in with a guy a few weeks earlier that suffered from mental problems. That is when Winger formulated the plan to lure the mentally ill guy over to his house, kill him, kill his wife and then frame the mentally ill guy for killing his wife by claiming the mentally ill guy killed his wife and that he shot the mentally ill guy in self defense. The guy was shot, the wife was killed I believe by hammer blows to the head.

Now, what is amazing is that Mark Winger got away with it as long as he did. The mentally ill guy had brought in to the house and set on the kitchen table a mug of soda and a pack of cigarettes. The thing he allegedly used to kill the wife was a hammer from the Winger home. It is just very unusual that a guy that was allegedly so intent on murder would bring cigarettes, soda and no murder weapon to the home. The body positions did not match Winger's story either yet the cops evidently overlooked all of this, he was basically hailed a community hero and the case was closed. Even his in laws believed him at least at first.

Winger got away with it for 6 years. However his arrogance and paranoia sunk him. He kept checking in with the Police Department asking about the case even though the case was closed. He also filed various wrongful death lawsuits and things like that, it was just too much. He had already made several hundred thousand dollars off of his wife's life insurance as he was not a suspect in her death until several years after the fact. Winger was eventually convicted and was sentenced to two life terms in prison.

Oh yeah, I remember that Winger guy. Killed his wife AND the poor mentally unstable shuttle van driver.

I also remember the one about the woman who sat on the bed and shot herself with a shotgun, and it was finally determined to be a suicide.

So I guess that right now, we have a tally of only one, certain, female shotgun suicide.