I get the impression that the creators of Cheers and Frasier are actually a bunch of Dianes and Frasiers. Their constant erudite allusions in both shows can be seen as nothing more than an exhibition of their knowledge. The Simpsons work in that same vein. I guess those Harvard grads have to do something with their ivy-league education. :rolleyes: The best part is when viewers congratulate themselves every time they get an obscure reference in a joke. That's like liking a joke only because you get it. And, yes, I'm guilty of that. :p

For example, isn't Melville's supposed to be an allusion to Herman Melville? Ya know...big white whale...the sea...sea food...sea food restaurant...

Back to my point. There's more to this than just showing off. The creators of these two shows obviously have something to say about the role of high culture. Historically, high culture never had much use for anybody except a very tiny elite. Even then it wasn't exactly "useful"...it was more a marker of status, as it still is today - it suggests an expensive education. The high-brow aspect of both Cheers and Frasier actually highlights the triviality of high culture. In the end isn't it always the low-brow simpleton with the common sense who has the voice of reason? The Martin Cranes, the Carlas, and even the Ernie Pantussos - they may not have an expensive college education, but they have wisdom, which you don't learn in school.

Unlike so many shows out there (like Dawson's Creek and The Gilmore Girls), which use high-culture references as a cheap way to indicate depth in a character, the creators of Frasier and Cheers attempt to show people the importance of using knowledge. It's not enough to know things - what's more important is what you do with your knowledge.

This is not at all an anti-intellectual message. In fact, Diane often played the part of "the voice of reason" using her college education. Those were the moments when she actually used her knowledge for a greater purpose. However, the rest of the time she just flaunted it. To me, that's the biggest difference between Diane and Frasier. Diane flaunts her knowledge while Frasier actually uses it to help people. Of course...he can't help himself a lot of the times...but that's another story.

Ok enough of that. I think I've bored you people enough.

Good points Diane Diane.

Adding to this topic, the show also parodied - even subverted - the idea of feminism. Why that is, I'm not sure. With Diane's character, we first see a young woman whose education proves to be pretty useless - a little like girls who receive a superficial education so they have something to talk about at cocktail parties. Then she goes from being a feminist-type intellectual to somebody who is obsessed with getting married and seems pretty content with the prospect of becoming a home-maker. What saved her character was the fact that she left to try to become a writer. Of course, if Diane had been successful, her character wouldn't have been funny. A lot of the humor originated from the juxtaposition of her lofty intellectual pretensions and the blatant fact that she couldn't do anything better than work at a bar.

Rebecca similarly subverts feminism. She begins as an ambitous, independent, high-powered business woman, but the truth is she only wants to get married...to a rich guy.

I guess in the end, people just give in to what they really want rather than trying to live by some remote principle. That was the whole point of having somebody as cerebral and principled as Diane falling for somebody who made her sick. It was almost as if Diane was the Superego and Sam was the Id. It's all about finding a balance between instinct and intellect.


How's that for another pointless analysis?

Oh my god, DianeDiane, I think you may be my long-lost sister!
Even Lilith was used as a parody of feminism...though she put her training to more use than Diane (and I won't even bother to compare her to Rebecca, cause that would just be a waste of time), her intellectual and professional sucess ended up serving as a detriment to her social, and later on, even maternal sucess. She was cold, friendless, frequently derided for her character (or lack thereof), and ended up leaving her husband for a colleague.
Though neither she nor her husband were particularly good parents (I have my reasons for thinking this, which I won't get into right now, other than perhaps to ask you who exactly was with their son when they spent so many evenings at Cheers?), she was the one who ended up forsaking the oft-thought "primary duty of a woman," abandoning her child and his father for another man.

None of the characters paint a very good picture for women's lib and equal rights...

I'd like to add, DianeDiane, that if Sam was the Id and Diane the Superego, then Carla would surely be the Conscience.

You shouldn't have started this, DianeDiane, now that I'm in my milieu, so to speak, and I could go on FOREVER! Don't make me write another essay about the subconscious male fears that the mythological Lilith represents! And whatever else I talked about in that thing...that was a damn cool post, if I may say so...
hey, I just did!

Shalom, yo!

I almost forgot about Lilith, periacta. This can be our little Cheers analysis thread where we can go on and on analyzing the blood out of everything - but only because we care about these topics and not because we like to listen to ourselves talk :rolleyes:.

Lilith's femininity and sexuality was completely suppressed by her ambitions to be a successful, independent, professional woman. Essentially, to be taken seriously, she was forced to renounce her sex.

Diane, though very feminine, was nothing more than a "cold fish." Very conservative, almost child-like in her physique, she represents the type of woman who actively gives up sex for knowledge. What we get is a woman with a large brain and a very underdeveloped body.

The resulting message: you can't be sexy and smart.

Carla's character also contributes to this larger parody. Here's a smart woman who is overtly sexual and promiscuous but who fails to control her own reproductive system. Her fertility takes over her life, making pregnancy and motherhood a punishment. Of course, there's also a social class issue at stake here. Lower class women are subjugated by their own sexuality, while upper class women have the option of controlling it - even giving it up.

Yes you can be sexy & smart ! How come I think many smart girls or women are sexy then? Am I crazy when I look at them & see something different ? Also she had a very developed body what are you talking about ? I loved it , Man :eek: :kiss: :rock: :biglove: :drool: I also love Daphne Moon a lot ! LOL:eek: ;) :D

Cliff, I'm not talking about subjectivity or how "hot" some men think these women are. You're not understanding my point.

It is evident in the show that neither Diane nor Lilith actively develop their sexuality and display it like Sam's many bimbo girlfriends. The show's message, which reflects the feminist thinking of the time, suggests that it's very difficult for a woman who is outwardly sexy- a Marilyn Monroe of sorts - to be taken seriously.

I repeat, this is not a thread about how "hot" these women are. No drooling allowed.

Feminists in the mid-80's to early 90's ?

Ok, I get what you're saying though.

Originally posted by CliffClavin
Feminists in the mid-80's to early 90's ?

Ok, I get what you're saying though.


I'm glad you get it, and, yes, feminists (more like pseudo-feminists) a decade or two ago tended to follow the misguided but practical idea of dressing and acting like men. Women still do that today, but it was more popular back then...I believe. Periacta can clarify and expand on that for me when she returns (she isn't online now).

returns from what ?

When she returns from hiding from a domineering mother.
And she shall expand on that, later tonight, when she has some peace and quiet and time.
And she'll desist from speaking in the third person, too.

After tonight I won't be back until friday.

Originally posted by CliffClavin
After tonight I won't be back until friday or something.

Say it isn't so. You're an awfully nice poster. I'll miss you.

I swear, I had intended to respond before now.
I've procrastinated for so long mostly because I don't have much to expand on, other than, yes, women of the 80's and early 90's of dressing and acting like men, and still do, and I can neither confirm nor deny DianeDiane's statement that they do this less, because, honestly, I haven't been that observent, and also, in the mid-eighties, I was more concerned with, say, learning to read than I was with what women were wearing and how they were acting.
I can say that a common theme that I see in the Cheers women is that each of them has relenquished a part of their whole person in order to succeed in their chosen (of often, not chosen, but assigned) role in life.
This philosophy is still very commonly (almost universally) used by women, at least in western civilisation, leaving the common conception of a woman as a rather incomplete, fragmented caricature; a simulacrum, of sorts.

So, why do the creators of Cheers-- a show characterised (as we have seen) by its high culture-- find the need to perpetuate this twisted logic? Any ideas?

I'm not even going to hazard a guess right now, its four in the morning, I have a migraine, and my dry eyes are telling me that it's time to take my contacts out and go to bed. So I'll leave this up to you for now.

Yeah, I'm no authority on the subject, but I believe that today women are more accepting of being sexual as well as intelligent. I'll take my examples from TV: Ally McBeal and all the mini-skirt-wearing female lawyers...and, well, that's all I can think of now...

Where do you stand on all this, by the way? Are you a Lilith or Diane in terms of appearing more conservative in order to be taken more seriously? I for one am still stuck in that old pattern...and don't actually want to leave hehe.


When thinking about the answer to that last question you posed, you can't forget that Sam renounced his potential for intelligence to be a whore. So does it work the same way with men, too? Sam's TV reporter friend acted just like Sam, and everybody knew he was even more stupid. Would Frasier, if he had acted like Sam, been taken seriously and thought of as a successful, intellectual professional? Cliff couldn't get a woman if he begged, so he relied on acting smart - as best he could.

I'm still not sure of the answer. I just put my own contacts in now haha...and I'm still sleepy...so now point in trying to answer this any further this morning.

I'm definately Lilith-y in my approach. Like I mentioned a while ago, when I am not at home, my hair is almost always in a bun, and I have been doing this so long that I feel vulnerable when my hair is down. I never wear make-up, and while my clothes are not masculine, they are not overly effeminate either. Sometimes I will wear it down, put on a shorter skirt than usual, show off my legs...just to mess with people's minds, but that usually ends up messing with my mind just as much, or backlashing on me, and I usually regret it.

I panic whenever anyone compliments me, either because I feel objectified, and/or I'm sure that they're lying. Usually "and." I have no confidence when it comes to my looks.

So yes, I am also stuck in that pattern, and in fact, I was about to protest when you called this practice "misguided but practical," before I realised that that was exactly what it was, whether or not I, along with millions of other women, am comfortable with it.

This stems from two sources, as I see it, and though there are two, they are not definate, and certainly not mutually exclusive.

The first, as we have discussed, is in the media. Though sociologists have been pondering for years whether the media sets trends and the public follows them, or only mirrors pre-existing trends, this is what is being broadcast, this is what "socially acceptable" is.

The second is the tendency toward this adolescent idea (especially amongst Americans) of black and white, of extremes. You can have one or the other, but not both. You cannot possibly be an intelligent person and a sexual being. There is no gray. Hence the struggle that it has taken (and is still ongoing) for woman to have equal rights in the workforce, for how can they properly raise children and be a productive member of the workforce at the same time? This has popped up in the media for aeons. I'll make a (brief) example of the virgin/whore dichotomy of the New Testament. Why can't the Magdalene be holy? Because she is overtly sexual. Likewise, the Virgin is holy because of her lack of sexuality.


I think that this is also shown in the men of the show, but to a lesser degree, and in the saga of i-can't-finish-this-entry-right-now...I'll have to finish this in the morning.

well, I said that I'd write more in the morning. Technically, it is morning, albeit 24 hours after I wrote the last post.
And I have watermelon.

Anyway, as I was saying, this is also shown in the men of Cheers, but to a lesser extent. For instance, Frasier's sex life was often the topic of conversation at Cheers, as well as in his own show. Woody, on the other hand, had neither much intelligence, nor much interest in sexual topics. Sam, of course is the exception.

While TV is notorious for oversimplifying characters (ie, giving them one or two personality traits with nothing in between), do you think that Cheer is singular in its separation of Sex and Brains, especially among woman? If it is...is it intentional? Is there something behind it, or was it just (God forbid) laziness in the creation of characters?

Thats all that I have for now, my watermelon is gone, and all I have to remember it is the green smile of the rind, sticky hands, and a very wet shirt that is slowly seeping its watermelon juice onto my skin.

But I hope someone will continue along this train of though, I'm enjoying this topic!

I want to here more about that watermelon juice on your skin & shirt . :cool: :D ;)

Originally posted by CliffClavin
I want to here more about that watermelon juice on your skin & shirt . :cool: :D ;)

*pulls up buttoned-up collar, adjusts reading glasses and waves index finger at Cliff's face*
"How dare you objectify Periacta."

Shakes off feminist librarian persona.

Back to normal now. Your interpretation of Frasier made me realize that Diane isn't as conservative as I made her out to be. She's much more open about sexuality than Lilith. I'd say she's the female counterpart to Frasier in that sense. So perhaps her case isn't as negative as we originally thought.

With Lilith, I think the creators of the show were just showing how that particular interpretation of feminism doesn't really make you happy - to put it simply. It may make people take you seriously, it may give you independence and success, but it also makes you lonely and isolated and...well all the other things Lilith ends up being. Of course, I'm sure Lilith's personality is not merely a result of feminist theory...yet I believe the message is undoubtedly critical. I can't help but agree with their criticism to a degree - I make fun of stuff like that myself. I just did when I put on that "feminist librarian" persona. Of course, this type of parody is damaging to women's movements, because any sort of feminism is then going to be stereotyped like that. That's why I appreciate what they did with Diane. Here's a woman who is undoubtedly feminine and also sexual (though in a tasteful way) whose appearance doesn't hinder her feminist attitude.

Characters like Frasier and Diane, who manage to be both intellectual and sexual, are portrayed in a much kinder, healthier light - ignoring the fact that both have their particular psychological dysfunctions.

And...where does that leave us? I have no idea. I'm tired...I'll try again later.

*slaps self in the face a few times* Damn! Sorry Petricia & Chambers & any other woman who come here! LOL

Let me add to what I wrote earlier. The reason Diane is, in my opinion, the better role model is because most feminist theories look to the male-dominated version of our culture for solutions, without realizing that they're only giving in to what they perceive to be a problem. For example, women going into politics often only survive if they act like men. Look at Margaret Thatcher. Power is too often equated with male behavior, so anybody who has power will adopt that attitude. Now what if politics had been created by women? Would it have been different or would "power" have demanded the same behavior from women? I'm not sure of the answer, but clearly, there's a problem with feminists who believe that having women act more like men is a solution. That's why it's refreshing to see feminist women who LOOK and ACT feminine. Ideally, our whole cultural frame of reference would have to shift to make it more applicable to women. Then again, is "feminine" behavior merely a result of centuries of cultural subjugation? How much of the difference is biological - how much of it is simply cultural? ...I really don't know.

Originally posted by CliffClavin
I want to here more about that watermelon juice on your skin & shirt . :cool: :D ;)

ok, first of all, Cliff, I don't know if you are joking, but I certainly don't think that this is the right topic to make those sort of jokes.
Second of all...you spelled my name wrong.
If you have something worthwhile to contribute, please do, we'd love to hear what you have to say about this, right now it just seems to be DianeDiane...um...Chambers and I, and so any other relevant input is welcome, but, please, at least in this topic (read: High Culture and TV), please keep it on a mature level. Thank you.

Now, onto the fun stuff...

Chambers, I think that you brought up some good points, especially in your last post, and you brought up a VERY good point, namely... what is "feminine"? What is it that makes these women, well...women ? How is a feminist "supposed" to act? So many of these words can be put into quotations in fact, "feminist," even "sexuality" (if I remember, I'll get into these later. if not...remind me) because, like everything about human culture, it is completely subjective. We almost have to step back, completely pick apart each of these words (and innumerable others) and come to an agreement on what they mean to us for use in this discussion. Your idea of what makes a woman innately feminine, what separate is appropriate for a woman, either as a feminist or not, could be very different from mine, and, even if our ideas coincide, do they match up with what the creators of Cheers intended? Of course, if one spend too much time worrying about what is intended, and what is assumed, one's attention becomes diverted from the topic at hand, as mine just has.

Let me step back a minute, read what I wrote, and reread the past posts before I continue.

I agree that Diane makes the better role model. She is definately more feminine (or at least, more consistent with the popular conception of what is feminine, and I guess that's the best that we can do), whilst Lilith attempts to succeed by relinquishing that which makes her a female. That, I believe, is Lilith's tragic flaw--her denial of her own gender. This brings up something else (in my head, at least) as I think back to her namesake, and how her own gender eventually rejected her. Could this, perhaps, be the reason for her own separation from her sex (not to be confused with her sexuality...I'll get into this later)? Of course, we can never know this, as none of the people in question are real, they are simply words on a page, and, as such, are not whole, and have no history that we can look back to and say "There. That is why she is the way she is." But I bring this up because I think that this may also be a key to the way these characters interact with each other, and the "world." Women (especially, no, particularly in patriarchal societies) are notorious for their rejection and betrayal of one another. As woman has, through the centuries, had to reconcile the roles of mother, wife, sister, seductress, lover, within herself, she has also had to recognise these traits in her peers, and a bitter rivalry is developed. I hardly think I need to explain this further, you yourself must know how cruel girls can be to one another, and is it really to much to believe that this could lead one, Lilith or any woman, to reject her own female-ness?
I bring this rivalry up for another point, which is the interactions between the female characters on the show. While the males form a jovial group of friends, do any of the females really get along? Carla hates Diane, and while Diane doesn't necessarily hate Carla, there is certainly no love lost between them. Ditto for Carla and Rebecca. Ditto for Carla and Lilith. There is rivalry between Diane and Lilith, especially over Frasier (see "Dinner at Eight-ish"), and Lilith only grudingly accepts Diane's presence. Lilith and Rebecca are "friends" of sort, but there is barely any interaction between them, and what litttle there is hardly seems genuinely caring. Each of these women is isolated from her own sex.

I disagree with you on one point, DianeDiane (I'm having a hard time calling you Chambers..."Diane" seems to fit you more...).

That's why I appreciate what they did with Diane. Here's a woman who is undoubtedly feminine and also sexual

I think that you may be overlooking the fact that Lilith does have sexuality, and is, undoubtedly, a sexual being. She is, actually, one of the more sexual women on the show. Her problem was that she couldn't manage her sexuality well. It couldn't coexist with her rational self. In "Abnormal Psychology," during the television scene, she ignores her professional responsibility as a representative of the Psychiatric profession by engaging in a game of "footsie" with Frasier. She ends up having to write a letter of apology to the APA for her behaviour. In "Teaching With The Enemy" she finds herself cheating on her husband, and is eventually caught, and must explain herself to Frasier, once again begging forgiveness for her sexuality. Later on, she is humiliated even further for this same misstep, when she tries to return to Frasier, in front of the entire bar, she is rejected by him, branded a slut, a whore, cast down and humilated to the point of tears. Later, on 'Frasier' appearances, such as "Room Service," when she sleeps with Niles, she commits yet another grave "sin" ( which is, at least biblically, a form of incest: "Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife"), and must pay the price for this. In all these examples, she should have "known better." We know that Lilith is rational, so how could she end up making so many serious mistakes? Because she can't control the one thing that makes her a woman: her own body.
What we end up with is an overly sexual woman, whose actions inevitably lead to some sort of abasement or indignity.

All this, I believe, is very much due to the masculine frame of reference, at least on the part of the show's writers.

More examples of the masculine frame of mind can be seen in the examples of other posters in this very thread.

Other than that, I'm well aware that my observation for the evening may well have no point.
Its six in the morning. I've yet to go to sleep for the night.
I'm interested to know what you think about all this.

Because she can't control the one thing that makes her a woman: her own body.
What we end up with is an overly sexual woman, whose actions inevitably lead to some sort of abasement or indignity.


I'm glad you corrected me on that one. No, I hadn't forgotten about her sexuality - which is also very present on Frasier. But her way of managing it is, as you said, in unhealthy alternate patterns of repression and outbursts. The "Abnormal Psychology" incident fits that exactly - as does the Frasier episode where she sleeps with Niles. What I tried to say and failed was that both Diane and Frasier manage to balance out their gender and sexuality in a healthier manner.

For Lilith this lack of control stems from her constant repression of her sexuality. What does she feel after she's engaged in a sexual act? Guilt. Pure and simple. She looks down on herself before society can and overcompensates for her fall by making her bun tighter. Her wardrobe reflects this perfectly: she wears grey and white when she's "good" and firey red when she's "bad."

Carla's lack of control of her own sexuality is different. Sure she's promiscuous, but sex isn't a source of guilt for her. Sex is natural. Her problem is her body. She's too fertile. Sam, on the other hand, has ten times as much sex as everybody in that bar put together, yet he never had to deal with pregnancy. Fertility is the bane of womankind, it seems. Let me correct that - the bane of uneducated womankind. Diane has had plenty of sex and never got pregrant. She knows how to manage her body. But, as Lilith's character suggests, managing physical reproduction isn't enough for a healthy sex life. Sex is undeniably married to emotion.

Lilith's other "flaw" is her fear of emotions. Something else popularly defined as "feminine" is the concern for all things emotional. As Sam tries to hide his feelings, Diane pours them out. Of course, she's made fun of for that. In the professional world, most woman are undoubtedly encouraged to renounce emotional behavior; Lilith has done so both in her professional and personal lives. Lilith seems to take everything to extremes in order to protect herself from the kind of criticism projected at Diane by people such as Sam and Carla. For Lilith (and myself, actually) it's ten times better to be thought of as cold and unfeeling than to be thought of as some gushy, emotional woman.

About the women not getting along - that's when Diane breaks the mold once again. While Carla and Lilith - even Hester Crane - aren't exactly friendly towards her (to say the least), Diane constantly tries to build on what she considers to be a natural female bond. Recall one episode when Carla reluctantly needs her help and Diane makes that little speech about how leaders around the world should learn from the sacred bond between the women of America...yadda yadda yadda...something like that. And let's not forget Diane also tried to reach out to Lilith by helping her changer her look in "Abnormal Psychology" just so she could play matchmaker with Frasier and Lilith. She also constantly tried to get on Carla's good side - until she finally realized she couldn't avoid the name-calling.

The source of the rivalry between Diane and Carla is pretty much unspoken. The fact that Carla started to hate Diane from day one suggests that this is a pretty empty rivalry, fueld only by the fact that Diane and Carla and polar opposites. Diane is tall, thin, blond, educated, refined, pretty enough to turn heads - everything Carla is not. She manages to transform all of Diane's seemingly good qualities into undesirable qualities. Now, why don't Norm and Cliff behave this way towards Sam? Why is there only jealously and hatred between the women and not the men?

Well, it seems like I've ended in the same place you did. I'd like it if other people would contribute to this topic too - but only if they're going to be mature about it. Recall my "no drooling" post. And the name Diane was making me confuse myself with the real Diane too often haha. Chambers is less imposing.

I found titles of some potentially interesting articles about the show, which I hope to find once I regain access to my library's database. One is called "Where Everybody Knows Your name: Cheers and the Mediation of Culture," by Michelle Hilmes. I think it can be found in a book called The Sitcom Reader. I've also been looking for articles concerning the topic we're currently debating...but no luck yet.

I'd like to start by saying that this is a very interesting thread, as I love hearing your opinions on the charactors and the images they portray.

I'm not going to contribute anything at the moment, as I'm still reading through the posts, but maybe later tonight..when I'm feeling more psychobabbly.

Haha I hope you do contribute! I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Hey, I'm taking a break from this topic for tonight, to give myself time to think of something new to say, so I don't end up talking myself into happy little circles and boring everyone around me.
BebeSternin, I hope you will join the discussion.
And this isn't psychobabble...this is our idea of fun!

I'll be back on tomorrow, or...technically, later today!

Shalom!

Have fun!:D

Now, why don't Norm and Cliff behave this way towards Sam? Why is there only jealously and hatred between the women and not the men?

I'll start off with this, and go from there. I'll probably end right back where I started, but...such is life.

There is actually an evolutionary reason for the jealousy between women.
Females invest much more time, energy, and other vital resources simply producing a healthy newborn than a male, without even considering the effort going into rasing a child from birth into adulthood. Every other sexually mature female is therefore seen as a potential threat to a female's offspring--an opportunity to lead a male astray, thereby neglecting his duties as a protector and hunter. Without anyone to aggressively protect young from predators and supply meat, the offspring would soon perish. A woman simply cannot afford this: unlike the male, whose part in creating life is relatively brief, a female must carry and nurture a fetus for 9 months, and --especially in the later months--this can prove dangerous to the mother, as well (you try fleeing from a lion with that attached to your body!). Hence, a female who is especially receptive to the emotion of jealousy is
a) more able to notice any flirtations between her partner and a rival female and,
b) sucessfully impede any noted flirtations,
c) keenly aware of any rival females in her territory and prepared to drive them away,
thereby securing (or at least fortifying) her offsprings' chance to reach a mature age and reproduce themselves.

Notice that I used "female" and "male" instead of "woman" and "man", because while this is evolutionary and written into our genetic code, so are wisdom teeth and other such things that aren't much use today, and this behaviour should simply be seen as a remnant of our simian past, and NOT necessary for survival today.

There might also be cultural influences in this, as well...women have far too often appeared in stories as either seductresses, or hateful towards one another (recall Snow White's stepmother), and one misdeed-- or even (as is often the case) alleged misdeed--breeds another.

Anyway, I think I'll just answer that question tonight, and pass the baton onto someone else.

You know what would be nice? If we could get some males involved in this discussion. We all (both?) seem to be coming at this from the same angle, I wonder if there are any other views of these characters and their relationships with one another.

I promise, I'll write more tonight.

The competition theory makes a lot of sense. Yes, it would be nice if we could get some other opinions in here...especially male ones.

Anyway, I wanted to bring up the episode in which Lilith gives birth. I watched that a looong time ago, but during her pregnancy and early motherhood, didn't they make her amazed yet completely scientific about everything that was happening to her body? She was completely unromantic, yet totally in awe and oddly in control. I can't really do a proper analysis of this, because I don't remember it well enough. But I thought I'd put it out there for somebody else to tackle.

My brain feels like swiss cheese now, so I'm gonna give myself a break. I'll try to contribute more tomorrow.

I promised that I'd post tonight, so, here I am.
With nothing to say.
I would also be interested in this analysis of motherhood that you suggested, Chambers, but I haven't seen that episode in well over 2 years.
Anyone else want to give it a go? Please?

Do we need to start offering free cookies or something around here or something?

Anyway, I feel really bad that I'm not saying anything, I feel like I've been getting awfully lax the past few days, which sucks, cause this topic really rocks.

I'll see what I can come up with tomorrow.

Originally posted by Chambers
Anyway, I wanted to bring up the episode in which Lilith gives birth. I watched that a looong time ago, but during her pregnancy and early motherhood, didn't they make her amazed yet completely scientific about everything that was happening to her body? She was completely unromantic, yet totally in awe and oddly in control. I can't really do a proper analysis of this, because I don't remember it well enough. But I thought I'd put it out there for somebody else to tackle.


Not to sound like an idiot, which I undoubtedly will compared you two, but I think this was just a way to make some comedy out of it.
Lilith behaved like this, because thats what she was -- completely scientific and unromantic. In real life nobody would behave this way, but with a character like Lilith, having her portray the "lifeless" emotions about her pregnancy got some of the biggest laughs.

You're right, barwars. The genius behind Lilith's character was that she elicited humor from total humorlessness. Now there's something Cheers was great at: making its female characters actually funny! Unlike many shows in the past that believed women couldn't be funny (especially if they were pretty), Cheers created great female characters who were both good-looking and hilarious. I'm glad you brought the issue of comedy up, because that's a whole section of this topic that periacta and I have been ignoring. I'll get back to this later...when I'm fully awake.

Ok, first off, I'm a 16 year old male, but please, dont think of me as an adolescant, just pretend I am 30 or something.

Now, I think I may have a very warped perspective of women, but I have to tell you, I think that Lillith is just about the perfect woman. Something about her personality is incredibly attractive, she is intelligent, succesful, and a whole lot more caring than she lets on. I dont think that she is nearly as cold as she is reputed to be, and I think that it is the other way around from what you have mentioned. It seems to me like Lillith is trying to make herself more feminine alot of the time, but the way she behaves is just how she is. But yes, it is true, she is in a proffession where it is required that she is viewed as a fellow intellectual and not a piece of meat, hence the suit.

I also disagree with your analysis about how someone cant be smart and sexy at the same time. Now, I personally rarely use the word sexy, but I think that intelligence is the most attractive thing in the world. I am in no way intimidated by a girl who is smarter than me (I never blow my own horn, but you dont know me, so I will just tell you, I am pretty intelligent, especially when it comes to language), if anything, I like it. If you are going to spend that much time with someone, I think it would be useful to be able to ask them questions and have discussions. I think that is why Frasier and Lillith worked, other people found them pompous and unapproachable, but they didnt see it in eachother.

From personal experience, there was a girl I was trying to date (thats the best way to put it...) and she wasnt especially school smart (she wasnt school dumb either), but she had alot to say about politics and political issues, and was just an absolute genius conversationalist. everytime she said something intelligent she just became more attractive. She was also the first intelligent feminist I met (growing up there would be girls in my class who would talk about how girls were better, but only be able to produce frustrating contradictions). As such, feminists had always bothers me, not because I was intimidated, but because I was annoyed.

I should tell you though, that I dont think women are payed less because of discrimination, I heard on talk radio that women statistically request less when they start a job, ask for raises less frequently, and take more vacations, as well as often not starting their career until their children are in preschool.




Sometimes, I'm not sure if you are analyzing how the writers percieve these topics, or how these topics really are, but I dont think the point of Diane is feminism, I think her main purpose was to show someone intelligent and someone of high culture be thrown in with people of pop culture and average intelligence, and see how they interact. I think the idea of the show was for her to have to learn to adapt to being around regular people, which was hard for her to deal with because she saw herself as being above them.

I think in a way Diane could be compared to Oliver Douglas on Green Acres, essentially they took an intelligent person and set them around much less intelligent people (Oliver did not believe himself to be nearly as smart as Diane thought herself to be, but the patrons at Cheers were not nearly as stupid as the residents of Hooterville)

Frasier was an important addition to the show, because some of the people actually looked up to his intelligence, or at least respected it when they knew he could help them. What you will notice is that in many episode Cliff is trying to be intelligent and condescending, and everyone knows he is wrong, but no one is able to prove it but Frasier, and that is what they look to him for. I think Frasier is different than Diane because he is far more accepting of less intelligent and less cultured people, but is far more able to accept who they are.








hmmm, that was a bit of a ramble fest, and a bit off topic at times, so just uhh...stick with me ;)

Good! More people joining in!

I personally do not believe that one can't be smart and sexy. I meant to introduce that as a popular but misguided notion. But I still see Diane and Lilith as supporting that idea: neither one is very sexy in the physical sense. They are not vulgar and don't show off their bodies. You are one of the rare few who find intelligence sexy and who think Lilith is the perfect woman haha.

About Diane - her central role in the sticom is just as you described. She does have a concern for women's issues, though - but that concern seemed to dissipate after the first season or two.

Basically, I was looking at how these female characters paradoxically both uphold and undermine feminism.


I think Frasier is different than Diane because he is far more accepting of less intelligent and less cultured people, but is far more able to accept who they are.

I also see that as the essential difference between Diane and Frasier.

I would prefer an intelligent woman who's good looking, over a dumb woman who's gorgeous.

I think what made Frasier work was that he WAS smart, he didn't have to prove anything. He was a success. Whereas Diane had to prove herself, therefore had to act smarter than she was, which led to the shows funniest moments, IMO. Diane was not a genius by any means, but she was smarter than the rest of the bar (besides the Drs Crane). So early on, Diane could basically tell them anything, and they had no way to prove her wrong. Thats why I think Shelley Long hated the fact that Frasier was staying around -- he was the smart one that the other bar patrons looked to for advice, because he was genuinely smart. He wasn't one to go around looking to help people, whereas Diane couldnt go 5 minutes without putting her nose where it didn't belong, once again -- leading to the series funniest moments. (Father Knows Last, anyone?)

Originally posted by ThirteenInchEscape
I think Frasier is different than Diane because he is far more accepting of less intelligent and less cultured people, but is far more able to accept who they are.

But when Frasier moved to Seattle, he became more like Diane in that sense. He became less accepting, but far more willing to help. In Boston, he had really no desire to make the rest of the barflys what they weren't -- cultured. But in Seattle, Frasier wouldve killed for his father to become more cultured. Martin and Frasier were equally intelligent, although in different ways. Frasier could work with people's minds, where Martin was the one who could work with the people.

I know, this is about Cheers -- but I figure every Cheers fan has watched Frasier at one point or another and knows the basic outline of the series.

Originally posted by barwars
Frasier could work with people's minds, where Martin was the one who could work with the people.

That's perfectly stated. That becomes further evident by the fact that Frasier doesn't even work with people face-to-face - he listens to their voices over the phone, which makes it easier for him to treat them as nothing more than "minds."

About Frasier becoming more like Diane when he went to Seattle - I always thought that was due to the fact that he had more of a life in Seattle. In Boston he sat in a bar most of the time, wallowing in sorrow like all the other barflies, talking about nothing and doing very little. He wanted to be more like the people around him - he wanted to be one of the boys. In Seattle his part was more of the trend-setter than of the follower. He was practically a celebrity. So he could afford to feel and act superior there.

I do still wonder, however, if Diane would had been as eager to show off her intelligence if she hadn't been an attractive woman. She often displayed her superior intellect in response to Sam objectifying her....But the other side of her showing off was her desire to enlighten the masses, which led her to greatly underestimate the people at the bar. (In a way, this is a culturally masculine role to play: that of conqueror and empirialist.) The bar was her project. She denies that she went there to make friends. Frasier was not interested in making the bar his project; he was there to build friendships.

That's all for today.

Originally posted by Chambers
I do still wonder, however, if Diane would had been as eager to show off her intelligence if she hadn't been an attractive woman. She often displayed her superior intellect in response to Sam objectifying her....But the other side of her showing off was her desire to enlighten the masses, which led her to greatly underestimate the people at the bar. (In a way, this is a culturally masculine role to play: that of conqueror and empirialist.) The bar was her project. She denies that she went there to make friends. Frasier was not interested in making the bar his project; he was there to build friendships.

I think Diane wanted to show off her intelligence because she thought she was unattractive. She didn't fit Sam's (or anyone else at the bar for that matter) ideal of a beautiful woman. I agree about the bar becoming Diane's project. But in the end, she truly only stayed because of the friends. They proved (twice in fact) that Diane was not there just for Sam.... but for the atmosphere that came with Sam. They were the only people who seemed to stay in Diane's life -- mainly because they had to, they either worked there -- or it had become a second home.

Wow, I shut up for a few days, and everyone starts talking! Maybe thats a hint of some sort...

(I just want to preface my post by saying that my "O" key has been sticking, so if you see any words lacking "O"s, um...srry.
:D )

I think that Lillith is just about the perfect woman.

While I don't agree that Lilith is the "perfect woman" (I'm not sure that there's any such thing), she is pretty awesome. But, like all of us, she does have her flaws.

I also disagree with your analysis about how someone cant be smart and sexy at the same time.

I don't think that either Chambers or I came to that conclusion, what we were trying to say is that this is still a pervading "truth" in popular culture, and we were pointing to examples in "Cheers." But as Chambers has already said, and I will reiterate: most intelligent women will attest that this is not the case.


(growing up there would be girls in my class who would talk about how girls were better, but only be able to produce frustrating contradictions). As such, feminists had always bothers me, not because I was intimidated, but because I was annoyed.

I should tell you though, that I dont think women are payed less because of discrimination, I heard on talk radio that women statistically request less when they start a job, ask for raises less frequently, and take more vacations, as well as often not starting their career until their children are in preschool.

I'm hesitant to bring this up, because this isn't a thread debating feminism, but I think I should point out a few things.

a. Growing up, most people don't know what they're talking about, and aren't exactly perfect candidates to argue any point of view.
b. Feminism is not, nor has it ever been, about women being "better" than men.
c. Don't believe everything you hear on talk radio.

as for your question about what exactly we were analysing, as Chambers put it:
Basically, I was looking at how these female characters paradoxically both uphold and undermine feminism.

This is exactly what we were doing, and in some cases we are bringing up characteristics that weren't even intended, that may have been written into the character due to unconscious cultural biases on the part of the writers, or for some completely different reason.

A few more things that I noticed before I go...

Barwars
I think what made Frasier work was that he WAS smart, he didn't have to prove anything. He was a success. Whereas Diane had to prove herself, therefore had to act smarter than she was

Chambers
I do still wonder, however, if Diane would had been as eager to show off her intelligence if she hadn't been an attractive woman.

Barwars
I think Diane wanted to show off her intelligence because she thought she was unattractive.

This is interesting. Obviously, Diane had something to prove. Was it because she didn't want to be seen as an object, or was it some sort of compensation for her self-percieved lack of beauty?
I'm on the fence. And I think that maybe Diane was, too. Often our perceptions of ourselves change, while our behaviours (at least for a while) remain rather static. Its possible that when in different moods, her behaviour was justified for different reasons. I know I have days where I feel like all I have is my intelligence, and days where I think I'm pretty damn "sexy" (for lack of a better word), but each day I know I feel as though I need to prove something. Sometimes its for neither of those reasons.

I'm lazy, so...that's all.

Ok, first off, I believe almost nothing I hear on talk radio, however, I am very often bothered by people who give statistics and completely disregard variables, men and women are pyscologically different and as such approach the work place different.




I do not think that Diane or Lillith embody women's issues.

I think that Diane is simply who she is- someone who feels the need to prove her intelligence, maybe she does have a lack of self confidence, but if you look at it, she isnt so much different than Cliff.

Cliff simply hasnt had the benefit of higher education, so he makes great efforts to look intelligent, it is the only thing that he feels he has to offer to those around him.

Diane is very educated, but was unable to do anything with her education, and has very little self confidence.

Because of this, I dont think Diane's behavior or personality can be linked to gender or sexuality, I think it simply relates to self confidence. She feels that if she is not an intellectual and a member of high society, she is not a worthy human. Cliff on the other hand, seems to intentionally be around people that he considers unintelligent so he can do what he percieves as impressing them with his knowledge.





Lillith is a slightly better example of someone whose gender effects her character more. Lillith appears to feel the need to transcend her gender, she is someone who doesnt want to be held to the confines of being a woman, but at the same time wants Frasier to value her as a sexual partner.

If anything, Lillith does not want to appear feminine at all when she is working, going to seminars, and being recognized as a scientist. In her everyday life (which other than Frasier and Frederick, is less important to her than her work) she struggles to be feminine, and in the end simply stopped caring about everyone at the bar.

As I look at it closer, Lillith is a sort of unintentional feminine contradiction, she didnt set out to further womens issues, she set out to fulfill a personal goal, not for the benefit of all women. As she achieved her proffessional goals, she started to want to embrace her feminine side so she would be able to have a fulfilling personal life.



I was able to give a slightly better response tonight, I guess my thought process is better



sorry if I contradict anything I said in my last post

I do not think that Diane or Lillith embody women's issues.

I don't have the time to respond fully to this now, but I must say that Diane, Lilith and even Carla do embody women's issues due to the simple fact that they are women. You don't have to be a militant activist to be a feminist. Every woman is related to feminism because feminism is about women. I could take any TV show that has a woman in it and debate how that character relates to feminist values. We're not arguing that the writers meant for Diane and Lilith to embody women's issues (though as intelligent writers, it must have come across their minds), we're just picking apart what these people created. Analysis is all about trying to understand how these smaller elements in our culture relate to a bigger picture. By looking at Diane and Lilith and many of these other characters, we're trying to understand something about our culture at large or even something about ourselves.
...Does that make sense?

As I look at it closer, Lillith is a sort of unintentional feminine contradiction, she didnt set out to further womens issues, she set out to fulfill a personal goal, not for the benefit of all women. As she achieved her proffessional goals, she started to want to embrace her feminine side so she would be able to have a fulfilling personal life.

I agree with the comparison you made between Diane and Cliff, and with your analysis of Lilith. However, the quote above seems to indicate the misunderstanding we're having. We're not saying that Lilith and Diane are trying to further women's rights consciously. We're just talking about feminism in the context of what it means to be a woman in today's modern world.

On the matter of fulfilling a personal goal versus something for the benefit of all women: some feminist theorists (such as Simone de Beauvoir) would say that furthering your own interests as a woman will lead to the benefit of all women. But now we're getting into feminist theory...and I don't think any of us are equipped to debate those.


This is interesting. Obviously, Diane had something to prove. Was it because she didn't want to be seen as an object, or was it some sort of compensation for her self-percieved lack of beauty?

Barwars's statement about Diane's insecurities as a woman makes a lot of sense - and could be seen as a general trend for most of the women on this show. Lilith, Rebecca and Carla also see problems with their physical appearance. Yet each of them manages to compensate for that by whining (:rolleyes: ), or by cultivating their intellect, by dressing down, by sharpening their tongue, etc. Diane does seem to be on the fence, as you said, Periacta.

As I listen to people's subjective responses to Diane, the more I understand that she is (at the most) strangely attractive. She is aware of her flaws. Her dyed hair, for one, reveals these insecurities. Similarly, her conceited remarks about her grace and intelligence are a way to overcompensate for her shortcomings.

I'll continue this later, or somebody else can.

Before I say anything, (which I wont in this post) I just have to say -- damn you people are smart.

Yeah, You people are really smart.

Originally posted by Chambers
Barwars's statement about Diane's insecurities as a woman makes a lot of sense - and could be seen as a general trend for most of the women on this show. Lilith, Rebecca and Carla also see problems with their physical appearance. Yet each of them manages to compensate for that by whining (:rolleyes: ), or by cultivating their intellect, by dressing down, by sharpening their tongue, etc. Diane does seem to be on the fence, as you said, Periacta.

I agree with everything, especially about Carla.
sharpening her tongue, dressing down, superstition, and even her "over" religiousness along with sex drive. (if that counts)
But her insecurities were less about being a woman -- and more about being just a person, period.

Originally posted by barwars
I agree with everything, especially about Carla.
sharpening her tongue, dressing down, superstition, and even her "over" religiousness along with sex drive. (if that counts)
But her insecurities were less about being a woman -- and more about being just a person, period.

Yes, I see it like that too. Most of Carla's insecurities come from social class and not gender.

I'm a little too lazy - ok, make that very lazy - to write more today, but let me just say:
Damn, you're smart yourself.

At least you didn't call any of us eggheads.

Originally posted by Chambers
Yes, I see it like that too. Most of Carla's insecurities come from social class and not gender.

I'm a little too lazy - ok, make that very lazy - to write more today, but let me just say:
Damn, you're smart yourself.

haha, thanks.
TV Teaches.

Originally posted by barwars
haha, thanks.
TV Teaches.

OT. TV DOES TEACH!! I have a friend who hates TV and doesn't understand that you can learn a whole lot from TV. I hate peope who think TV makes people dumb! Ok, rant over.

They say that tv destroys your braincells overtime & makes you tv zom.....*must watch tv*

Originally posted by Chambers
OT. TV DOES TEACH!! I have a friend who hates TV and doesn't understand that you can learn a whole lot from TV. I hate peope who think TV makes people dumb! Ok, rant over.

I agree. Its the TYPE of TV of watch. And the type of TV I watch is good -- because I say so.
Im one of the smartest kids in my school -- and Im a total TV geek.

Iam tv geek freak.

Originally posted by Chambers
At least you didn't call any of us eggheads.

Well, at least I didn't type it.

Well, at least I didn't type it

:lol: I love that

Originally posted by barwars
Well, at least I didn't type it.

At least I'm not typing what I'm really thinking right now.
:p

Originally posted by Chambers
At least I'm not typing what I'm really thinking right now.
:p


damn.
outsmarted.

YES! :lol: ;)

I'm easily the smartest kid at my school, but I go to alternative school, so no accomplishment there :P

Anyway, when I did go to public school, I would often argue with my teachers that it is never what you do, it is how you do it. Im in the 98th percentile for vocabulary for sophomores (well I was, when I was a sophomore, the test was first semester of last year), but I read less than other stuents who were not nearly as high. The fact is, I simply pay attention to what I do. You are able to get words from TV, videogames, listening to conversations. I dont always watch intelligent tv either.

It is all about paying attention in your everyday life.




and damn, I new not that many people thought Lillith was attractive, but I thought the common consensus was that Diane was attractive...I guess it is hard for me to figure out what most people think when none of my friends watch the same shows I do.




edit: oh, and I really am a tv addict, I watch 6-8 hours on an average school day, but often hit even higher if I donthave class or something.

Hey ThirteenInchEscape,

Iam homeschooled & get off at 2pm so I watch 10 hours of tv in a average day. 2 in the morning & 8 at night. So in the summer its like 18 hours a day. I also watch PBS & the news.I like watching E! entertainment channel .I like looking up stuff on tv & movies on the internet. So I have alot of knowlodge of tv & movies up here * points with index finger to side of head & taps * I also watch the featurettes on dvd & listen to the commentaries.

So iam a tv & movie geek

It'd be nice if we could get back to the topic of this thread.

Originally posted by Chambers
It'd be nice if we could get back to the topic of this thread.

I agree.
But I just dont know where to go with it.

Originally posted by barwars
I agree.
But I just dont know where to go with it.

...Me neither. Seems like Periacta and I went around in circles for a while. Anybody else can start looking at the characters at a new angle.

I was thinking the other day how the show manages to avoid social class issues even though you have a clear divide between the uneducated lower class people and the educated higher class people. In some ways, the bar feels like a buffer zone.

Originally posted by Chambers
I was thinking the other day how the show manages to avoid social class issues even though you have a clear divide between the uneducated lower class people and the educated higher class people. In some ways, the bar feels like a buffer zone.

I noticed that too. Although some episodes dealt with it, like the one where Frasier and Lilith take Carla and Ludlow to dinner (which happens to be one of my favorites)

Oh yeah - and it was also sort of approached when Diane dated Sam. Through this divide, though, we get to what I mentioned in my first post on this thread: the difference between just having knowledge and status and actually making something out of what you know and what you are.

Originally posted by Chambers
Oh yeah - and it was also sort of approached when Diane dated Sam. Through this divide, though, we get to what I mentioned in my first post on this thread: the difference between just having knowledge and status and actually making something out of what you know and what you are.

Diane was definately the more knowledgable of the two -- but she had the "lower status".
She may have been more educated and sophisticated, but Sam's baseball career got him the perks and popularity.

Originally posted by barwars
Diane was definately the more knowledgable of the two -- but she had the "lower status".
She may have been more educated and sophisticated, but Sam's baseball career got him the perks and popularity.

That's true and something I only noticed in the last episode of season 5. For some reason it didn't hit me that Sam might actually have more status because she was always rubbing her superiority in his face. In relation to the other barflies, Cliff seemed to have more status (though it was more transparent than Diane) because he was also pretentious. What Diane and Cliff played off was "given" status. Sam actually earned his status. Diane, coming from an upper class background, and Cliff with his postal worker uniform, believed they were automatically superior. The show subtly attacks this type of attitude.

Originally posted by barwars
I noticed that too. Although some episodes dealt with it, like the one where Frasier and Lilith take Carla and Ludlow to dinner (which happens to be one of my favorites)


I loved that episode, too! Ludlow proved that he may took like a poindexter, but he had the Tortelli gene in there somewhere, lol!


Feen

Originally posted by Chambers
That's true and something I only noticed in the last episode of season 5. For some reason it didn't hit me that Sam might actually have more status because she was always rubbing her superiority in his face. In relation to the other barflies, Cliff seemed to have more status (though it was more transparent than Diane) because he was also pretentious. What Diane and Cliff played off was "given" status. Sam actually earned his status. Diane, coming from an upper class background, and Cliff with his postal worker uniform, believed they were automatically superior. The show subtly attacks this type of attitude.

But in the end -- Frasier was actually the only one that had true higher status. He was smarter, he was richer, he was more sophisticated AND he was "in with the crowd".

That's why I think Frasier is the most likeable egghead there is.

I agree. In someways I think there's a little Frasier in all of us.

Don't you guys think so ?

Originally posted by CliffClavin
I agree. In someways I think there's a little Frasier in all of us.

Don't you guys think so ?


Hey - I'd rather have Niles in me, rather than Frasier...http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/TroyandLindseyFan/smoking.gif


Feen

:lol:

I didn't mean like that .

:lol:

Originally posted by Moondance
Hey - I'd rather have Niles in me, rather than Frasier...http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/TroyandLindseyFan/smoking.gif


Feen


:grineyes: I wouldn't mind having a little of Frasier in me... :eek3: :blush: I mean his personality traits of course!!!

Dear God. The people at this thread...tsk tsk tsk. ;)

I would like to know if people think there's more to this "high culture" versus "low-brow culture" thing than what I've suggested.

Originally posted by Chambers
Dear God. The people at this thread...tsk tsk tsk. ;)

I would like to know if people think there's more to this "high culture" versus "low-brow culture" thing than what I've suggested.


Don't you see? This thread is about "high culture" but just one person makes a "low-brow cultured" joke and it turns into a popular thread, haha! People will listen to smut! - but my joke was pure innocence. Haha!


Feen

I think that High Culture Vs. Popular Culture (I prefer that term over 'low culture') was the original premise of the show the first few seasons, though it kind of stayed there throughout the show, especially as Rebecca came to realize that she was no longer part ofthe upper class (upper middle class?) that she came from.

I think that Diane was meant to show someone who was unsuccesfully trying to be part of high culture, and Frasier was someone who was succesfully part of high culture. I think this can be shown by Frasier and Dianes interest in things like classical music, plays, and poetry.

Carla is supposed to be the representation of the lower class, because as someone said, she is overly religious (at times), she is always having kids, normally with different men. Her obsession with Elvis is meant to show that popular culture is just as important to the lower class as high culture is to the upper class.

Seems like Periacta and I went around in circles for a while.

Hey! No we did not! Well...yeah, we kinda did, I guess. But they were very well thought out circles! And we made a few points. Points are just really small circles, anyway.

and Feen, your joke… ohno: I seriously groaned when I read it, and everyone else in the room just…looked at me. Terrible joke!

I'm glad that we got into the "class distinction" discussion, because I was just thinking today of all the articles that called Cheers a "blue collar" bar. This always bothered me because I never did see it as simply “blue collar.” Granted we only got to know a handful of the patrons, but those that we did know where equally dispersed throughout the socio-economic spectrum. Lets peruse through the characters and pay close attention to any status symbols that might pop out at us (or, rather, me, since I’m writing this), shall we? Why, yes, we shall!

(Just a disclaimer, which shouldn’t even NEED to be said, but I’ll say it anyway: any class distinctions that I note are those of popular conception and are not my personal views.)

Carla-Poor, and Italian-American. Catholic. Since at least the split from Catholicism made by the Church of England in the 16th century, Catholicism has been looked upon (at least by much of the English speaking populace) as a rather archaic and superstitious religion (just think about what a big deal it was when America got its first Catholic president…in 1960). Carla takes her superstitions to an even higher level. She has many children, and many of them were born out of wedlock. This may in part be due to her Catholicism, as the Church has outlawed nearly all methods of birth control (please correct me if this is inaccurate, I’m getting my information in part from Monty Python’s Meaning of Life). She is a waitress. All of these place (and keep) Carla firmly in the “lower classes.” They may also symbolise her refusal to leave the “Old World” (Catholic instead of the newer Protestantism, superstition, even the number of children she has).

Cliff-As was said earlier, he used his Postal Worker uniform as a sign of status, and, in a way, a government job can be seen as such a symbol, though not as much as Cliff would like to think. He continuously tried to prove himself as highly knowledgeable, and always failed. He could not hold his weight in an intellectual conversation. Furthermore, he still lived with his mother. This is falls into the social strata of the group, not so much the economic or professional one, but as such, it is a pretty big stigma.

Diane-Obviously very intelligent, and from a cultured background, she was brought up with the best, and refuses to allow anyone to mistake her for anything less. She is the absolute epitome of a New England WASP. However, she seems to waffle when it comes to pursuing and honing her intelligence in any one direction, and so remains in this limbo between possessing knowledge, and putting it to good use. Even her ultimate decision to become a writer puts her into an occupation which is often looked down upon in society as one where a seemingly bright person “fritters their talent away.”

Frasier-While it is unclear exactly what sort of background Frasier possesses (due to the discrepancies between the Cheers and Frasier universes) we know that he was raised into a very cultured and privileged life. For what it’s worth, I believe that he is Anglican/Episcopalian, which also places him in the comfortable, American, WASP category. Unlike Diane, however, he has received his degrees, and established himself in a solid, highly regarded, career. This is the major distinction that puts him near the top of the socio-economic ladder.

Lilith-She is not (if I remember correctly from the episode guide) from any sort of distinguished background. I believe that Frasier, in fact, blamed her for their son’s testing average, pointing out that her grandfather was a “egg and dairy man from New Jersey.” She is also Jewish. I’m not sure whether this is boosts her on the ladder, or lowers her, for, on one hand, Jews are viewed as having copious amounts of money, and predominating over the legal and medical fields (as well as musical, cinematic, and acting professions, but that doesn’t really pertain to us here). On the other hand, there is no doubt that Jews have, for their entire existence as a people, been looked down upon, discriminated against and used as a scapegoat. They still are today, and this residual anger is still seen in America. Like Frasier, she has obtained multiple degrees, and become a successful member of the psychiatric field. Unlike Frasier, however, she has gone to greater lengths to achieve her success. Whether this counts for something when assigning status, I’m not sure.

Norm-Norm is an interesting case as I believe that he can be seen as “beyond social stratification.” He was an accountant at the beginning of the show (white collar) and a painter (blue collar) at the end. He didn’t really pay much attention to either job, but instead existed primarily inside the bar, which, as we have seen, serves as a sort of meeting place between the two worlds. This may be why he was designated as the “main character,” as he seems to mirror the bar in his social standing.

Sam- As was mentioned in earlier posts, while he didn’t have a phenomenal intellect, he did gain a high status by being a baseball star. Through this he has gained fans, friends, plenty of women, and a reputation as a “stud.” One thing I can think of though is that he was a recovering alcoholic. His alcoholism is indicative as a lower class standing as (while alcoholism affects both classes equally) this affliction is often pointed to as a “problem of the poor.” Along with his alcoholism, he has the last name of “Malone,” and these traits combined lead me to think that the writers were making a conscious (albeit, rather cheap) allusion to his Irish background, which also speaks to his association with the working class.

I know that I have neglected to analyse both Woody and Rebecca, and I’m sorry. I didn’t do Woody, because this seems a little too obvious, and I didn’t do Rebecca because…well, I really don’t care. If anyone else would like to, feel free.

I think though, that Cheers’ categorization as a “blue collar bar” is incorrect, that it is in fact a “world between worlds” or as was astutely stated by Chambers, a “buffer zone.” And I think that Norm, as I already said, was made to reflect that.

Anyone have a different take?

I think Sam is meant to represent faded glory.

For a very long time there has been a group of charming men who survived by recieving support from rich women. One of the Three Muskateers (Porthos?) is a good example of this. Sam has mentioned that Malone is a proud Irish name, but I dont think Sam represents any social class, I think he represents a person getting further and further from his prime. After fulfilling his life goal (baseball), he had to give it up because of alcoholism, but was left owning the bar. For the better part of the series, Sam is near permanently living in the past, and Diane is the only one that realizes that Sam's lifestyle is not that impressive.


Basically, Sam is a man clinging onto his former glory. The only accomplishment he feels that are left for him are sexual conquests

Yes, faded glory is really (I believe) the key to Sam's character - what makes him interesting. And yes, periacta, our circles are pretty darn cool. Well that brings a lot to the table now.

I must add an observation about Catholicism and birth control before I begin. Carla did use birth control, but it was always the wrong one. The main source of her pregnancy problem was that she didn't learn about it properly when she was younger - so it would make sense to blame social standing and education rather than her religion.

Let me focus on Carla and Sam for just a minute. It sometimes makes me a little disappointed in the writers that they used stereotypes of Italian-Americans and Irish alcoholism. As you said, they feel a little cheap and are not very construtive, in my opinion. But these stereotyped qualities do not translate into the stereotyping of the characters themselves.

Carla's sharp tongue and temper all results from her background of poverty and struggling. It molded her into a tough, quick-minded, fiercely intelligent (despite being formally uneducated) and self-sufficient woman. Unlike many of the barflies who sit around and just complain about their lives without taking any action (namely Norm), Carla never lets any obstacle crush her will - and that's what makes her one of the characters I most admire. Her many redeeming qualities override the fact that her character is essentially a stereotype of Italian-Americans.

In treating Sam's alcoholism as a serious issue and something which he was able to overcome, the writers gave birth to a complex character with depth. Any other show would have piled on the Irish alcoholism jokes.

I've always associated Sam with the middle class, however. He had to be offered good education as a child since his brother did turn out to be more like a Diane or a Frasier. Unlike Derek, Sam didn't take advantage of his education. Instead, he chose sports.

Sporting are another fascinating facet of this show. In principle this activity negates all of the high-brow interests simply because it is predominated by use of the body rather than of the brain. The high-brows liken sports to animalistic, primitive behavior. They actually fear sports and all the primitive urges released in physical activities - urges which they spend their whole lives trying to suppress.

In such a sports bar, high-brows become the alien minority. This alone is a rather refreshing reversal of things. Usually, the common man is depicted as trying to penetrate the upper class social circles (which is why I thought Rebecca's character was quite unimaginative). But rarely have I seen high-brows trying to be one of the guys, trying to fit in with the blue-collars. This goes beyond Diane's age-old attempt to create high culture by borrowing from the blue-collar world. This is much like the stage of the falling empire. After failing to dominate a people, the former imperialist power ends up having to treat them with decency, realizing it depends more on them than they do on it. This arrangement in the bar also heavily reflects the class situation in the U.S. Unlike the U.K., which harbors a heavily classist society, the U.S. prides itself in avoiding class antagonism. Cheers seems to partly parody, partly support this pride.

Eek...I jumped all over the place. I shall return later to make more sense out of this.

Originally posted by periacta

and Feen, your joke… ohno: I seriously groaned when I read it, and everyone else in the room just…looked at me. Terrible joke!




I know! Bad joke! - but hey, more people joined in, didn't they? http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/TroyandLindseyFan/mdr.gif


Feen

Originally posted by Moondance
I know! Bad joke! - but hey, more people joined in, didn't they? http://img11.photobucket.com/albums/v34/TroyandLindseyFan/mdr.gif


Feen

Feen does have a point. And it follows to say that this thread feels like an egghead club. But...being an egghead is fun.....