I'm just wondering if you could ever tell in certain episodes the pain in Lucy's face that she was suffering from her marriage. It's more noticable in The Lucy Desi Comedy Hour

Desi was too; it was his marriage also and he also felt pain! I could tell it more on the last ep with Kovacks and Edie. They try to smile but it seems too painful and they barely look/ speak at each other:( Edie said that when she sang 'That's All' there wasn't a dry eye in the house

So we can assume that their marriage was the perfect marriage gone bad? It was more Lucy's marriage than it was Desi's because she put more effort into it. And she dealt with his ****.

He also dealt with her 'issues'. Lucy was no saint either. It takes two to break a marriage; Lucy wasnt a victim, she knew all along that Desi was never going to change and stayed with him as well as he knew her faults and dealt with them

What were her issues?

Originally posted by Screenwriter
What were her issues?

have you read BOTH books and read BETWEEN the lines and watched the documentaries 'Finding Lucy' and Home Movie; they are all there :p

I've seen the recent tv movie Lucy.

Originally posted by Screenwriter
I've seen the recent tv movie Lucy.

That's a start!; did you learned something from it? Get her book and his book too. Watch 'Finding Lucy' and 'Home Movies"..homework, homework!:D

She was a workaholic and a semi-control freak. Plus she only had a vague idea how to be a parent.

She also liked to play 'games'; not only backgammon or Scrabble was a favorite;)

Just to put it in an easy way...At least Desi's faults and weaknesses were public and everyone knew how he was unlike Lucy; she had a lot of weakness but kept them inside and was an unhappy person (to an extent)

And like dawsongirl said; even though our children aren't born with an instruction book under their arm Lucy's idea of motherhood was very vague, it seemed like it wasnt within herself (at least when the kids were little).

But doesn't adultery rule out both problems from his side and her side? I THINK SO.

Originally posted by Screenwriter
But doesn't adultery rule out both problems from his side and her side? I THINK SO.

She knew he was that way from the beggining and put up with it; it seems like to her it wasn't

And don't tell me that Lucy was NEVER an adulterer herself

Many books implied that there was a time during the early 50s when he was settling down for a while, realizing that he now had a family and that it was time to stop some of that catting around. But the pressure from the business built up, and sex and alchohol became his release. Unfortunately, when he went to Lucy to ask her if they could retire early when he felt that their marriage was starting to slip away, Lucy said no. And so, more sex, more alcohol was the result. I wouldn't say that his cheating cancels everything else out. It is important to understand WHY the cheating occured in the first place. Yes, it had to do a lot with how he was raised. But in those last few years when the marriage was breaking up, there were other factors too. It was once said that Lucy's first love was her work. That was a huge factor in all of this. They were BOTH to blame.

This again? I have read that statement of yours fifty times Karen and i still don't know what you mean by it. She knew he wouldn't change? We always hope against hope that our mate will change and that we will be enough reason for our mate to change, Lucy always admitted she was no genius in real life so for her to KNOW that he would always be like that, even after having kids and getting older is not a fair defence in my opinion. As for the mothering thing, will you people leave her alone. Hollywood stars so seldom raise their kids. Lucy did not get to be the first lady of television and the world reknowned Queen of comedy by changing diapers, although she did do those things. They have HELP to do those menial tasks. All i know is that both of them treasured those two kids, she talked about them all the time on talk shows instead of just promoting herself like other stars do. When i was a kid, i knew their grades, their favorite subjects everything, what schools they went to, how she disiplined the, every single thing. True, she did not get raised by her own mother and had to learn to stand on her own two feet and raise herself as a child, but she was raised by grandmothers, and her kids were raised by her mother also. Lucy knew leaving her kids with her own mother or the nannies was enough. Because she was a hands on mother who followed their school work and grounded them and contrary to popular belief she was a touchy feely mom who always hugged and kissed and she spent the rest of her life wishing she had had more kids. Never think of her as a Nancy Reagan or Joan Crawford type mother because she cared, she disciplined, she loved, admired and worshipped those kids, she risked ridicule by having them on her shows to give them experience therefore setting them up for careers even, and left them millions so they could enjoy the rest of their lives.

Originally posted by SPLAIN
This again? I have read that statement of yours fifty times Karen and i still don't know what you mean by it. She knew he wouldn't change? We always hope against hope that our mate will change and that we will be enough reason for our mate to change, Lucy always admitted she was no genius in real life so for her to KNOW that he would always be like that, even after having kids and getting older is not a fair defence in my opinion.

I kind of disagree. The one bit of advice that I've heard from numerous people about marriage is that you should never go into the marriage thinking that you can change the other person. If a person has a bad trait before the marriage, such as cheating in this case, there is a pretty good chance that it will continue into the marriage too. I mean, one can hope that the person will eventually settle down, but in my opinion it is not a very good gamble to make. She made that gamble, and even went so far as to say that she got married thinking that it would last six weeks (or whatever figure she gave). There is no way that I would marry ANYONE that I thought I'd be divorced from within that year! She followed her heart instead of her head and she payed for it in the end. I'm not saying that she's stupid or that she's a bad person -- tons of people make the same mistake everyday. It's just that I feel that she was probably blinded by love in thinking that he would ever change.

As for attacking her parenting, what does that have to do with the topic anyway? We were talking about the marriage here. HOWEVER, I might as well throw my two cents in about the parenting too since the discussion has shifted. Some books do make it seem that she was a little nervous around children. Lee Tannen's book, for instance, kind of makes it seem as if she was a little strange about visiting her own grandchildren -- she had to go to their place, instead of letting them come over to her own. And, although she had an apartment in NYC, she didn't visit them as often as she could have when she was there. I don't know exactly how Tannen put it, but he said something along the lines of that it seemed as if visiting them was more of a chore or obligation to her. Keep in mind, thought, that maybe someone else close to her has a totally different perspective on this.

However, that was a different time then when her own children were growing up...I'm not really an expert on how she treated her own children. But I do remember someone close to them saying that she talked of family and the white picket fence, but never lived that life. Her own life was much different, centered around work. She probably loved those kids so much and loved to talk about how great they were doing, but did she actually live it -- meaning, did was she actually involved in her kids lives all of the time or was she still working even when she got home? It seems that Lucie Arnaz would agree with the latter, which is not surprising since Lucie doesn't always say the kindest things about her mother, whereas I've never heard Desi, Jr. say a bad thing about his mom. But I TOTALLY agree, everything has a price and the world enjoyed her comedy at the expense of her own time with her children. Bottom line, I'm not trying to insult Lucy at all -- I'm just trying to listen to the people who knew them best and try to figure her out, which is probably the point of these message boards in the first place. There are so many sides to every story.

Ok lets not turn the tables on Lucy now!;) Yes she wasn't your everyday average mother. Her work did come first but she still loved her kids. Like when she said the best thing is when your working and your happy or words to that effect. It's like people are taking Carole Cook's side. She never played with her children. Like she would know!!! I'm sure this has been said before but I'll say it again. She was always talking about her kids in interviews, she even put them on her show, and left them how much money?!:) So just leave her alone!

First of all Dawsongirl said she had a vague idea of how to be a parent, hence my defence. Second, the quote you refer to about the white picket fence is attributed to Carole Cook, a lady i love and admire and respect, HOWEVER, she wasn't there during their entire childhood, it is merely HER opinion of things. Every time i see a clip of Lucy photographed or filmed PLAYING with her kids i always mutter under my breath, guess Carole wasn't there that day. Lastly, Lee Tannen wrote a great book, very interesting, many people have pointed out the bias against Gary and i want to point out the bias against Lucy and pro Lucie, his dear friend and the one person she considers like a dear relative, yeah a distant cousin of Gary's who would never have known Lucy had it not been for the man he attacks in the book. Not that some of these attacks are not justified, but Lucie is his one link to the Lucy circle, so he sides with her, your comments about Desi jr NEVER criticizing his mom are perfect to answer the rest of this situation. I still LOVE Lee's book, one of the best i ever read about Lucy, but it has many errors in it and he has that fan thing where we think the world of Lucy but will often focus on one of her faults, be it her looks, attitude or demeaner. I don't know why the inner circle finds Lee's comments any less harsh than Jim Brochu's! Nobody likes to see their idols or mentors attacked, so we defend, sometimes, we get a dose of reality and state things, but we must remember that we are all human and all have faults. I have done it too, and when someone corrects me, i will take it from anyone that really knows what went on and is completely honest.

Ok... now how did my post get before Splain's post?:confused:

Looks like you posted at the exact same time.

I don't care of it's before, during or after, you got EVERYTHING ABSOLUTELY R I G H T ! Lucy herself tells Joan Rivers, I MIGHT HAVE BEEN A GOOD MOTHER, but i didn't do all the things that Lucie does, she planted a garden that took over the world, she's an earth mother who canned everything . . . did Lucy forget she did exactly the same things in Chatsworth? Then she says she takes her kids on the road with them, which is indeed commendable, however Lucy would plan every single weekend from Thursday night after taping to Monday morning at Ten with her kids and these huge caravans for trips everywhere together, and then noticed she was always waiting for her kids because of all their activities and hobbies and so on. Desi has them for the great summer vacations, me i have them for homework and school and grades, she'd lament, doesn't sound like an uncaring unfeeling mom to me.

DESI AND LUCY CONTRIBUTED TO THE BREAKING OF THEIR MARRIAGE IN SOME WAY, BOTH HAD PARENTING FAULTS AND PARENTING SKILLS IN SOME WAY...

WEEEEE...

Okay..Lucy obviously contributed to the breaking of their marriage because someone once asked Desi, "How do you live with that b****?" Even her mother said she was..lalala I dunno *shrugs* Who cares? :crazy:

Originally posted by lucyrules
It's like people are taking Carole Cook's side. She never played with her children. Like she would know!!! I'm sure this has been said before but I'll say it again. She was always talking about her kids in interviews, she even put them on her show, and left them how much money?!:) So just leave her alone!

I wouldn't say "taking Carole Cooke's side" as much as I would say "presenting" Carole Cooke's side. There are two sides to everything and all of those good aspects of Lucy's parenting had been mentioned, I was just presenting the other side which brings to light the reason why some people attacked Lucy's parenting earlier in this thread. It doesn't mean that I was was attacking her parenting.

And let's not forget that "Carole Cooke's side" is in many ways Lucie's "side" too. I'm sorry, but it may seem that Lucie doesn't seem to have anything good to say about her mother, but she WAS there and DID feel resentment that her mother continued to work when she got home. And there are probably many other reasons for this resentment also -- it doesn't mean that her mother was a bad parent, because it is only one perspective being presented. I personnally do not believe that Lucy was a bad parent. I am just like looking at both sides of the issue.

People are so quick to point out all of the flaws that Desi had, yet when someone has something bad to say about Lucy it is met with such opposition. I think that it is ok to look at both sides of the issue, and look at different persepctives to try to put it all together and gain understanding of the bigger picture. Nobody's perfect.

Yes, and there's a reason for that, LUCY IS BELOVED the world over, so her fans who grew up with her and were provided with laughs and entertainment for decades defend her when she is attacked. Joan Crawford was not defended when Christina wrote that book because Joan WAS a bitch, Lucy could act like one when her co stars were not professional, like Joan drinking on the set, or the director was too chicken to tell Burton he was not getting laughs or speaking too softly, Lucy wasn;t afraid to tell him, it was HER show, and she didn't get to the top by being a scared little puppy. She worked hard so she expected the people around her to do that also. The pros got along fine with her, the ones that just wanted the fame and money and did not want to rehearse all the time to make a better show called her difficult. I was remembering a Merv Griffin show where Lucy mentionned that she was just about to go to Lucie's house to take care of Simon as Lucie was going on a tour for six weeks. Lucy took care of the kid for six whole weeks while his mom was away on tour, sound familiar? Like Lucy did when she left her kids with her own mother and two nannies and lots more help while she earned a living and accumulated a fortune of 22 million that she left those two kids when she died.

Ay,ay, ay Claude! If we were married we would be a very happy dysfunctional couple:lol: :mad: :p :D

Hon, that's why i'm single and hundreds of miles away from YOU, LOL! I wouldn't subject any woman to be stuck with someone who can't travel, but i make up for it in other ways> LOL!

Oh good grief..:rolleyes: :lol:

Get your mind out of the gutter, i meant my BIG heart!

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Get your mind out of the gutter, i meant my BIG heart!

Don't you have a big nose too?:lol: :D

HUGE yes! I only breathe once an hour!

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Get your mind out of the gutter, i meant my BIG heart!

OF COURSE, Dahlin, that's what I meant! I would start coughing again but you gave me some cough medicine..:lol:

Originally posted by SPLAIN
HUGE yes! I only breathe once an hour!

LOL!! I was drinking some coke when I read that and now my keyboard is all sticky! :lol:

You KNOW how i can be so NEVER give me a word like STICKY to play with, i could get banned! Lucy would be proud that we all got together because of her and Desi, and we all laugh like this, what a legacy! Turns away, beat red and sheds a small tear.

..........giant nose knocks over monitor, boss comes running in, makes him pay for broken monitor. Now he's really shedding tears!!!! Face now beat red...........looks like head might explode...........:lol:

Originally posted by SPLAIN
You KNOW how i can be so NEVER give me a word like STICKY to play with, i could get banned! Lucy would be proud that we all got together because of her and Desi, and we all laugh like this, what a legacy! Turns away, beat red and sheds a small tear.

Claude, you can make up something for EVERY word! :lol:

Geez, you're in fine form today!:lol: :clap :clap :clap :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:thanks: :stupid: :joke: