Kurt Cobain: Not a Suicide?

[Jericho-79]

A lot of my friends from high school have insisted that Courtney murdered Cobain.

If Courtney did kill Cobain, then she's one hell of an actress when she publicly read that suicide note.

[Clockworkhigh]

At the very least it is one very mysterious death and I certainly haven't assumed it was a suicide. It is similar to Mariyln Monroe (pills overdose) or Bobby Fuller who was found in the front seat of his car. There is no doubt in my mind someone is alive who knows more about all of these cases that could shed some light on them. Unfortunately it is 50 years since Marilyn's death and 46 since Fuller's. But Cobain only died 18 years ago and while this is a cold case, I still find it hard to believe he killed himself

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeCRicci

You raise some interesting points. I'll start by saying that I found Eldon Hoke to be an interesting character. He had a hell of a story to tell, but I'm not sure if I believe it. IT IS POSSIBLE to pass a lie detector test while lying. There are ways to beat that system, so the fact that he passed a lie detector test doesn't do much for me. As to the circumstances surrounding his death, I'll just throw this out there: Eldon Hoke wasn't the most upstanding citizen in the world. He was downright shady. Who's to say that the circumstances surrounding his death had ANYTHING to do with the Courtney Love theory?

I'm not saying that I think Courtney Love is totally innocent (her behavior during Kurt's disappearance and suicide was strange, but she's strange...) but perhaps the reason that she isn't attacking the claims that she had Kurt murdered is because SHE'S INNOCENT, not to mention a media whore. Think about it. To someone like Courtney Love, who feeds on notoriety, even BAD publicity is better than NO PUBLICITY AT ALL. In addition, it's a basic rule of thumb that if you want to get people off of your back, the best defense is usually no defense. You defend yourself from ONE claim, and suddenly a bunch of others pop up. You use the example of Tom Cruise. How many times has he been accused of being gay now? I've lost count. You don't think that the claims have anything to do with the fact that Tom Cruise will respond to them, resulting in the publication getting their 15 minutes of fame? Who's to say that Tom Grant isn't out to get his 15 minutes of fame by accusing Love of murder?

In addition, in our country, a person doesn't have to prove that they are innocent. It's Tom Grant's burden of proof here. There's a lot of stuff that he brings up, but it's all circumstantial.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I strongly feel as if Cobain committed suicide. You talk to the people that were closest to him, and the majority of them feel as if he did kill himself. They make no bones about not liking Courtney, but they feel that in the end, Cobain took his own life. Have you seen the documentary Kurt and Courtney by Nick Broomfield? Most of his family comment in the movie that they think he took his own life... I feel like that's pretty convincing evidence.

Bump

Ok I've been on a nirvana binge lately. I absolutely love Kurt cobain and have learned a lot about him. He is one intriguing fellow.

Honestly this is one of the best posts I've seen on the topic of whether he was murdered or took his life.

Ok creepy heart shaped box just started playing on AFN radio. Wow!


I too think he took his own life. I think that he wanted to shoot himself and took as much heroin as he could in the process. I personally feel he took heroin to fill his drug need and shot himself because I honestly think he wanted to inflict harm to his body. I also think he was starving for attention due to the void he had from his parents/childhood. All of these things would have made it tough for him to be married and raise a child as well. I think suicide was something that he planned for a long time and eventually when he saw his life spinning out of control more than ever he finally acted on it. He did not want to be with Courtney and couldn't handle the pressure of being a father or the lead man of the biggest band in rock. But he didn't want to divorce and go on living that disappointment that he dealt with all of his life.

As far as love....you know I don't know what to make of her actions. As well as the other deaths(narcotic agent/el douche). This certainly has a lot more to it than I initially knew.

I think she knew their relationship was near the end and knew that he wanted to kill himself and in some way may have just given up on him. Tom grant mentions that most spouses would rush to save their spouse under such circumstances. Well I think she knew what was coming and just let it happen. She hired him as a last ditch effort to show some sort of humanity in order to try to save him but at the same time it was a very lackluster effort on her part. She used the yellow pages and didn't give him all the tools to succeed. He also failed to find the garage. I wonder if she may have wanted Kurt to do it? I don't know. That could explain the motive of wanting to inherit his estate as well. I like what the Dr. Cyril said in the UM segment and sort of feel the same way. And for that I have no problem with the feature UM did. There is some doubt to the ruling and that it could be possible he was killed. You have 2 people hired by Courtney that basically turned on her which is notable. You have strange actions by her as well.

I think the best point of all though as you said is almost all of Kurts loved ones accepted the suicide ruling and many including grohl said that they saw it coming.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

Originally Posted by DALLASTEXAN!!

Bump

Ok I've been on a nirvana binge lately. I absolutely love Kurt cobain and have learned a lot about him. He is one intriguing fellow.

Honestly this is one of the best posts I've seen on the topic of whether he was murdered or took his life.

Ok creepy heart shaped box just started playing on AFN radio. Wow!


I too think he took his own life. I think that he wanted to shoot himself and took as much heroin as he could in the process. I personally feel he took heroin to fill his drug need and shot himself because I honestly think he wanted to inflict harm to his body. I also think he was starving for attention due to the void he had from his parents/childhood. All of these things would have made it tough for him to be married and raise a child as well. I think suicide was something that he planned for a long time and eventually when he saw his life spinning out of control more than ever he finally acted on it. He did not want to be with Courtney and couldn't handle the pressure of being a father or the lead man of the biggest band in rock. But he didn't want to divorce and go on living that disappointment that he dealt with all of his life.

As far as love....you know I don't know what to make of her actions. As well as the other deaths(narcotic agent/el douche). This certainly has a lot more to it than I initially knew.

I think she knew their relationship was near the end and knew that he wanted to kill himself and in some way may have just given up on him. Tom grant mentions that most spouses would rush to save their spouse under such circumstances. Well I think she knew what was coming and just let it happen. She hired him as a last ditch effort to show some sort of humanity in order to try to save him but at the same time it was a very lackluster effort on her part. She used the yellow pages and didn't give him all the tools to succeed. He also failed to find the garage. I wonder if she may have wanted Kurt to do it? I don't know. That could explain the motive of wanting to inherit his estate as well. I like what the Dr. Cyril said in the UM segment and sort of feel the same way. And for that I have no problem with the feature UM did. There is some doubt to the ruling and that it could be possible he was killed. You have 2 people hired by Courtney that basically turned on her which is notable. You have strange actions by her as well.

I think the best point of all though as you said is almost all of Kurts loved ones accepted the suicide ruling and many including grohl said that they saw it coming.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

As a side note, it's fun to note that I've done a complete 180 on this. I started the whole thing believing that Courtney Love killed Kurt or at least had some sort of role in it. I bought "Love and Death" and read as much stuff on the conspiracy as I could.

I now firmly believe this was a suicide. He had years of mental health issues, in addition to excruciating stomach problems. He was not doing well handling the level of fame he had achieved. I think he wanted out. The other stuff in the case is no doubt mysterious, but at the end of the day, I believe one person pulled the trigger on Kurt, and that was Kurt himself.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeCRicci

Thanks. I appreciate that.

As a side note, it's fun to note that I've done a complete 180 on this. I started the whole thing believing that Courtney Love killed Kurt or at least had some sort of role in it. I bought "Love and Death" and read as much stuff on the conspiracy as I could.

I now firmly believe this was a suicide. He had years of mental health issues, in addition to excruciating stomach problems. He was not doing well handling the level of fame he had achieved. I think he wanted out. The other stuff in the case is no doubt mysterious, but at the end of the day, I believe one person pulled the trigger on Kurt, and that was Kurt himself.

Me too I flipped and flopped. and I don't think Courtney wanted him to die. I think it was just a situation where she could have done nothing to stop it. And with her being on drugs and making an album during all that it didn't help. It is strange how her PI turned on her but at the same time they had no prior allegiance to one another. She panicked and just hired anyone nearby and it backfired. She became the goat and so many of Nirvana fans blame her to vent their loss.

[kane7474]

Has anyone changed their opinion since watching soaked in bleach? I have never seen anything from Dave grohl stating that he saw the suicide coming. I don't believe that Kurt an Dave were even speaking anymore an nirvana was going to break up or at least take a long break. The last family memeber who spoke to Kurt before his death was his grandfather Leland. He never believed Kurt committed suicide.

[janiesue]

Every time I see this case I have to re look into it. If you remove the (he tried to kill his self before) I go to murder. There is so much information that gives the idea he did not take his own life or at least the possibility that someone took his life... I go back to the daughter, by all accounts he loved her very much. He and Love where no parents of the year, but knowing how bad Love was I just cant see him killing his self and leaving the baby with Love.

[SPD Yellow]

Originally Posted by janiesue

I go back to the daughter, by all accounts he loved her very much. He and Love where no parents of the year, but knowing how bad Love was I just cant see him killing his self and leaving the baby with Love.

Hey, however bad Courtney Love is as a mother, it's not like Kurt Cobain was Ward Cleaver.

Again the fact that people find the idea of a guy with a major drug habit, a documented history of mental illness, AND a record of previous suicide attempts, actually committing suicide to be so inexplicable, never fails to make me

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by SPD Yellow

Hey, however bad Courtney Love is as a mother, it's not like Kurt Cobain was Ward Cleaver.

Again the fact that people find the idea of a guy with a major drug habit, a documented history of mental illness, AND a record of previous suicide attempts, actually committing suicide to be so inexplicable, never fails to make me

True add failed marriage(possible infidelity that ruined close friendships), failed band(self inflicted with drugs), and really failing at life in general. He could not stop using drugs in spite of trying to stop and lost contact with every close friend and family member.

the more I watched Kurt stuff..there is a lot online... the more I believe his suicide is fairly straightforward. I was always a nirvana fan but did not know much about his suicide as I was in elementary school when it happened. I saw the UM segment a few times but it's not the best and I agree with some that say it could of been scratched. Soaked in bleach is good if you are on that side. It will leave you questioning kortney love big time. if you want to believe he was murdered it Will all add up once you watch.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by kane7474

Has anyone changed their opinion since watching soaked in bleach? I have never seen anything from Dave grohl stating that he saw the suicide coming. I don't believe that Kurt an Dave were even speaking anymore an nirvana was going to break up or at least take a long break. The last family memeber who spoke to Kurt before his death was his grandfather Leland. He never believed Kurt committed suicide.

I don't know if grohl ever spoke on the record about kurts suicide or no suicide topic. And it might be some guilt there because I'm sure they all felt helpless toward the end of kurts life. I know grohl has said that he and Kurt at times bumped heads and he felt like an outsider because he was not their original drummer. like he always needed to try to please Kurt/krist with his presence in the band. Maybe taking a back seat if you will. Because of his fame now it's hard to see him in that role. He also spoke highly of the bond between krist and Kurt and acknowledged that Kurt spoke highly of his(daves)songs before he died. But it is clear that nirvana had issues in the last year or so. I think most of it was because of kurts drug problem not so much anything else. It ruined the band. And while grohl doesn't speak of it on the record krist has several times(kurts closer friend) and he is certain Kurt committed suicide.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by SPD Yellow

Hey, however bad Courtney Love is as a mother, it's not like Kurt Cobain was Ward Cleaver.

Again the fact that people find the idea of a guy with a major drug habit, a documented history of mental illness, AND a record of previous suicide attempts, actually committing suicide to be so inexplicable, never fails to make me

There is no past record of suicide attempts though. He had an overdose scare which Courtney and only Courtney later described as suicide attempt.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by DALLASTEXAN!!

I don't know if grohl ever spoke on the record about kurts suicide or no suicide topic. And it might be some guilt there because I'm sure they all felt helpless toward the end of kurts life. I know grohl has said that he and Kurt at times bumped heads and he felt like an outsider because he was not their original drummer. like he always needed to try to please Kurt/krist with his presence in the band. Maybe taking a back seat if you will. Because of his fame now it's hard to see him in that role. He also spoke highly of the bond between krist and Kurt and acknowledged that Kurt spoke highly of his(daves)songs before he died. But it is clear that nirvana had issues in the last year or so. I think most of it was because of kurts drug problem not so much anything else. It ruined the band. And while grohl doesn't speak of it on the record krist has several times(kurts closer friend) and he is certain Kurt committed suicide.

Kurts close friend? Are you talking about the heroin junkie that got the shotgun for him? I think is name was Dylan. Saw an interview with him where he basically fell into a coma while talking. And what did you mean about a failed band? Nirvana was the top selling band of the 90s and Kurt the most in demand musician on earth at the time of his death. The new documentary shows that it's most likely a murder. Even the ex police chief said he would re open the case if he was still in the force.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by kane7474

Kurts close friend? Are you talking about the heroin junkie that got the shotgun for him? I think is name was Dylan. Saw an interview with him where he basically fell into a coma while talking. And what did you mean about a failed band? Nirvana was the top selling band of the 90s and Kurt the most in demand musician on earth at the time of his death. The new documentary shows that it's most likely a murder. Even the ex police chief said he would re open the case if he was still in the force.

No I was talking of krist novaselic being a closer friend than Dave grohl. He says he thinks Kurt took his own life. And krist is a smart guy. I feel if anyone would think kurt was murdered it would be him(if it were true).

Since you brought up the heroin junkie...yeah I would not take him or any of the others seriously. He wants to play along like a conspiracy and then after the fact changes his story and bashes the investigator leading the conspiracy charge. don't know what he had to gain by getting involved.

And you misunderstood me. Nirvana was failed in kurts mind at that point. Contrary to public thought what we knew then and what we know now en utereo did not go well for the band(for what Kurt wanted). it was a massive struggle for them and there are documentaries about it now with krist and dave grohl basically supporting this. He was not happy with the public perception of the band in that time. It just goes back to his mental state. Nothing would have been good enough for him. Nirvana in reality was great Kurt just did not cope with it. he also did not want to tour with la la palozza. he wanted to do a completely different type of thing musically. love was also romantic with billy corgan. just assuming he wanted nothing to do with those two.

If by new documentary you mean soaked in bleach it is not new and it is not a good documentary imo. It is a conspiracy movie. It is good for what the intention is set out to do. If there is another new documentary I have not seen it yet.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by kane7474

There is no past record of suicide attempts though. He had an overdose scare which Courtney and only Courtney later described as suicide attempt.

have you seen montage of heck? it is a documentary of kurt based on his own tape recordings, journals, and art collection. I believe kurt on tape discusses a prior suicide attempt he had as a teen. I could be off on the details I've only seen it once. but it is worth watching if you are a cobain fan.

[Hot Jock]

Originally Posted by kane7474

Nirvana was the top selling band of the 90s and Kurt the most in demand musician on earth at the time of his death.

I was a huge fan of Nirvana, but neither one of those statements are even remotely close to being true and are pure hyperbole. Did they sell a lot of records? Absolutely. However, so many other artists sold a lot more records in the 90s than they did. Nevermind was a massive success, but In Utero was a huge step down in sales as a follow up. In fact, it fell off the charts relatively quickly and didn't really regain steam until after Kurt's death.

They toured pretty extensively between 91-94 and never really graduated to playing large arenas or full size stadiums and pretty much were stuck playing mid-level venues with a few rare exceptions when they were playing a larger festival. I saw them in 1993 and the venue had a capacity of 5,500 people (it was the local college basketball team's place) and the show didn't even sell out. I lived in a large city at that time too, so it wasn't like it was the middle of nowhere either. In fact, I saw Metallica in the same city just a few months later and they sold out the local NBA team's arena with a capacity of 25,000 within a week of the tickets going on sale. Nirvana were certainly successful, but not nearly as much as most people think they were. I chalk that up to rose-colored-glasses syndrome.

As far as the topic at hand is concerned, I agree with whomever opined that the UM segment about Kurt was pretty lousy and not on par with most UM segments. In retrospect, it's one case that they probably should have left alone. Not only for the reason that it wasn't well done, but also because there just isn't a genuine "mystery" here. I was in high school at the time of Kurt's death and have always thought from day one that he committed suicide and have never wavered from that standpoint. When I was still a teenager back in the mid 90s, it was fun to play the "what if" game and discuss the conspiracy theories with my friends but now as an adult, I just don't see any reason to keep going in circles. I'm certainly no fan of Courtney Love, but she was so scatterbrained and strung out during all of this that there's no way she could have pulled this off and maintained enough to cover it up. I've seen and dealt with enough junkies in my day to know better.