Angela Hammond - Girl abducted from phone booth

[CuriousMind90]

You have to wonder if he's still around (as in not dead, nor in prison) today....

[Clockworkhigh]

Originally Posted by SageSlowdive

Michael Nicholau, I mean, the New Hampshire Serial Killer is not that likely.

My thoughts are someone was driving around, saw Angela, and took the opportunity to abduct her. It probably wasn't his first time, or his last time. The cops are just as much to blame. How many people you know got a puke green colored truck with an artistic picture on the back window?

I'm not sure I'd blame the cops on this one. That description is from second hand information from Angela to Rob. Rob might have had a glimpse of the truck but he was in such a hurry at the time it would be hard to get a description. Besides that decal on the back of the window could have been tossed 5 minutes after Rob lost him. The colour of the car could have been wrong. The car could have been dumped right away and a new car was waiting for him. Who knows. Whatever it is the cops didn't get him in time and this is 1991, it's pre-9/11, its pre cell phones. Information didn't change hands as fast at the time

[cocytus]

Originally Posted by Clockworkhigh

I'm not sure I'd blame the cops on this one. That description is from second hand information from Angela to Rob. Rob might have had a glimpse of the truck but he was in such a hurry at the time it would be hard to get a description. Besides that decal on the back of the window could have been tossed 5 minutes after Rob lost him. The colour of the car could have been wrong. The car could have been dumped right away and a new car was waiting for him. Who knows. Whatever it is the cops didn't get him in time and this is 1991, it's pre-9/11, its pre cell phones. Information didn't change hands as fast at the time

Ummm...why can't they "blame the cops" for this one? Even if the police in that town didn't have databases or advanced forensic equipment, they did have access to many tried and true crime detection techniques that, when effectively used, have caught and lead to the conviction of hundreds of thousands of criminals over the years.

If the police had quickly put out an APB and checked the gas stations in a 25-mile radius shortly after the crime, they probably would have been able to locate the truck. They could have also quickly radioed in to other local departments and had them looking for Ms. Hammond.

In fact, from watching the segment and reading the article that I posted a link to, the police in Clinton seemed to have basically spun their wheels for a few days after the disappearance and still seem to have little clue on how to proceed. As this was probably the biggest case that their department had ever faced, this was a pretty poor showing.

[Clockworkhigh]

Originally Posted by cocytus

Ummm...why can't they "blame the cops" for this one? Even if the police in that town didn't have databases or advanced forensic equipment, they did have access to many tried and true crime detection techniques that, when effectively used, have caught and lead to the conviction of hundreds of thousands of criminals over the years.

If the police had quickly put out an APB and checked the gas stations in a 25-mile radius shortly after the crime, they probably would have been able to locate the truck. They could have also quickly radioed in to other local departments and had them looking for Ms. Hammond.

In fact, from watching the segment and reading the article that I posted a link to, the police in Clinton seemed to have basically spun their wheels for a few days after the disappearance and still seem to have little clue on how to proceed. As this was probably the biggest case that their department had ever faced, this was a pretty poor showing.

Unless the kidnapper had this plan calculated. For all we know he dumped the truck into a swamp (ala Norman Bates from Psycho). For all we know he got into another car with an accomplice and threw Angela in the trunk (alive) and drove off. Would the cops have stopped an Oldsmobile? Doubt it.

I think you are forgetting the possibility of an incorrect description. In Canada when Kristen French was abducted in 1992 (huge story) the police clung to the theory that it was a white Camaro that picked her up. They were dead wrong despite eyewitness accounts.

Angela Hammond may have described a hillbilly to Rob, but the guy wasn't dumb but just dressed sloppy. He has eluded the police for 20 years. In my opinion he had to do something right and smart.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by Clockworkhigh

I'm not sure I'd blame the cops on this one. That description is from second hand information from Angela to Rob. Rob might have had a glimpse of the truck but he was in such a hurry at the time it would be hard to get a description. Besides that decal on the back of the window could have been tossed 5 minutes after Rob lost him. The colour of the car could have been wrong. The car could have been dumped right away and a new car was waiting for him. Who knows. Whatever it is the cops didn't get him in time and this is 1991, it's pre-9/11, its pre cell phones. Information didn't change hands as fast at the time

Ya well Im sure you can blame the cops on this one. Angela gave a detailed description of the truck to Rob on the phone. The reason she did this is because it was odd to see someone she didnt know hanging around like that. Rob then saw the same truck she described when it drove past her. Two other witnesses claim to have seen the truck driving around that night so ya you can blame the cops.

As for the car being dumped and the abductor switching cars at some pre determined location well LMAO at that. This is some low life serial killer not a CIA assassain.

And as for what you said about it being pre 911 and info not changing hands as fast, let me tell you about a case I watched tonight. This took place in 1964 by the way. A sherrif was gunned down in his patrol car and a witness saw a black truck speeding away. The witness got to his house and called the police. They put out an APB on the truck and it was found in less then one hour. This was 64 my friend. Radios have been in police cars for many years and it doesnt take cell phones to alert all law enforcement in a 100 mile radius. The police dropped the ball by not going all out directly after the abduction. End of story.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

Can a connection be made between the vehicle described by Shaffer to the one used by the perps in the Darby murder?

I have no idea on this one. I have searched for info on these guys and have come up with very little.

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by Clockworkhigh

I'm not sure I'd blame the cops on this one. That description is from second hand information from Angela to Rob. Rob might have had a glimpse of the truck but he was in such a hurry at the time it would be hard to get a description. Besides that decal on the back of the window could have been tossed 5 minutes after Rob lost him. The colour of the car could have been wrong. The car could have been dumped right away and a new car was waiting for him. Who knows. Whatever it is the cops didn't get him in time and this is 1991, it's pre-9/11, its pre cell phones. Information didn't change hands as fast at the time

Exactly. Police departments are not composed of superhumans, and they don't (didn't) always have the manpower or technology to facilitate their efforts--nor always the absolute correct information to work with. The notions that Rob or Angela could have made a mistake, or the suspect altered his vehicle are not inconceivable ones. In fact, they'd be more likely than Angela providing an absolutely perfect description of the vehicle via telephone to Rob, who then provides an absolutely perfect description of the vehicle to police under extreme duress--or the suspect letting his vehicle be seen in the exact condition it was the night of the abduction. Mistakes happen. It's just as likely any of those things happened as it is that the police made a mistake, and in all actuality it's probably a little of both. No one's fully to blame here, IMO. That's rarely ever the case with most things in life.

[cocytus]

Originally Posted by Clockworkhigh

Unless the kidnapper had this plan calculated. For all we know he dumped the truck into a swamp (ala Norman Bates from Psycho). For all we know he got into another car with an accomplice and threw Angela in the trunk (alive) and drove off. Would the cops have stopped an Oldsmobile? Doubt it.

I think you are forgetting the possibility of an incorrect description. In Canada when Kristen French was abducted in 1992 (huge story) the police clung to the theory that it was a white Camaro that picked her up. They were dead wrong despite eyewitness accounts.

Angela Hammond may have described a hillbilly to Rob, but the guy wasn't dumb but just dressed sloppy. He has eluded the police for 20 years. In my opinion he had to do something right and smart.

I'm not "forgetting" anything. I have always had a problem w/ the narrative presented and I have no issues w/ believing that there may have been a different vehicle than the one described or even no truck at all. This is why the cops needed to bring their A-game on this as it was obvious from the beginning (or rather should have been obvious) that this wasn't going to be an ordinary case.

I have never based my opinions of person's intellect on their personal appearance. That's not wise decision and when you are dealing w/ criminals, it could be a very shortsighted and dangerous position to put yourself in. Having said that, I don't think the abductor (if it's not the obvious suspect) was that intelligent;I think that he benefited from an inept police force and the lack of serious effort put into this case from the start.

Here's why I don't think that the killer was that smart:

1) He wandered around in a small town at night, risking being seen by numerous people.
2) He kidnapped a woman that was ON the phone rather than waiting for her to finish her call.
3) He didn't try some type of ruse to lure her into the car and then (according to the main narrative) did nothing to immediately subdue her making it possible for her to potentially injure him.
4) He drove a distinctive vehicle rather than something less likely to attract attention.
5) He kidnapped a woman that he hadn't stalked beforehand meaning that he acted very rashly and w/o thought for the consequences. He couldn't known whether she was armed or whether she was related to people that would take a dim view (and possibly seek non-judicial revenge) of their loved one being taken.

There are several more reasons but basically this guy was an average to below average psycho who managed to grab a woman, not get seriously injured in the process and benefited from the very slow response to his crime that Clinton police provided.

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by cocytus

Here's why I don't think that the killer was that smart:

1) He wandered around in a small town at night, risking being seen by numerous people.
2) He kidnapped a woman that was ON the phone rather than waiting for her to finish her call.
3) He didn't try some type of ruse to lure her into the car and then (according to the main narrative) did nothing to immediately subdue her making it possible for her to potentially injure him.
4) He drove a distinctive vehicle rather than something less likely to attract attention.
5) He kidnapped a woman that he hadn't stalked beforehand meaning that he acted very rashly and w/o thought for the consequences. He couldn't known whether she was armed or whether she was related to people that would take a dim view (and possibly seek non-judicial revenge) of their loved one being taken.

All of those things do indicate that he was probably a disorganized criminal, which tends to be an individual of below-average intelligence. I think you're correct, and I agree with you.

[CuriousMind90]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

All of those things do indicate that he was probably a disorganized criminal, which tends to be an individual of below-average intelligence. I think you're correct, and I agree with you.

I'd also speculate that besides being a sociopath, the guy might've had some other mental disorder, like schizophrenia.

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by CuriousMind90

I'd also speculate that besides being a sociopath, the guy might've had some other mental disorder, like schizophrenia.

I'd agree. Very likely.

[CuriousMind90]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

I'd agree. Very likely.

Yeah. I mean no serial killer or abductor is "normal" but look at someone like Ted Bundy--He would play on his victims' sympathy, lure them to their death in essence and was VERY discreet about how he went about his "business."

Or Jack the Ripper--Brutal killer but managed to somehow blend in with society and was probably interviewed by the police without them ever knowing it, and in many of the murders he was there just minutes before the body was discovered and in one of them was even in the court yard when the body was discovered but in every case slipped away just in time.

I mean if you're a criminal, besides doing your thing, one of your other "objectives" is also not to get caught. A smart criminal isn't going to take those sorts of chances. He could've EASILY waited another five minutes or whatever until Angela got off the phone and no one would have any clue whatever became of her. In fact, if he is ever found it will be because of Angie, in an ironic twist of fate.

If not for waiting around, he could've just grabbed her as soon as he got out of his truck. Instead he waited for around maybe 15 minutes to a half hour. If he just grabbed her as soon as he pulled up next to her, no description of him to whoever she was on the phone with (from his POV). Also, he used the phone next to her. Now we don't know if he was wearing gloves, but if he wasn't, then for a criminal, that was an utterly stupid move. Then to even talk on the phone? That shows cajones. This guy seemed to KNOW he wouldn't be caught...Makes you wonder what made him so confidant--Because he was either very confidant or very foolish.

I do wonder if he did follow her for a little while. She and her friend had been ''trucking around'' for the past hour or so until Angie went to the phone booth after dropping the friend off. This guy could've been tailing them from a distance for a while and they wouldn't have noticed it. It's not likely, but possible.

Also, the circling. I wonder if he circled because he wasn't sure if he was going to do it, or if he was circling to do a thorough check of the area to ensure that she was truly utterly alone. I wonder this because the former or latter would both say something about his level of intelligence and perhaps even his experience.

Also, I wonder if this guy continued after Angela, and if so, who were the other women?

You know there is a possibility that he was a first timer. Someone who just went nuts. Angie never indicated if he was a younger guy or older. Maybe he was a Vet. Maybe he was on drugs or alcohol. I've seen people who were incredibly nice while sober literally have hallucinations and become incredibly violent and aggressive while simply drunk on alcohol.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

Exactly. Police departments are not composed of superhumans, and they don't (didn't) always have the manpower or technology to facilitate their efforts--nor always the absolute correct information to work with. The notions that Rob or Angela could have made a mistake, or the suspect altered his vehicle are not inconceivable ones. In fact, they'd be more likely than Angela providing an absolutely perfect description of the vehicle via telephone to Rob, who then provides an absolutely perfect description of the vehicle to police under extreme duress--or the suspect letting his vehicle be seen in the exact condition it was the night of the abduction. Mistakes happen. It's just as likely any of those things happened as it is that the police made a mistake, and in all actuality it's probably a little of both. No one's fully to blame here, IMO. That's rarely ever the case with most things in life.

Once again, Angela stood there on the phone and gave Rob a description of the truck. Rob saw the same truck pass and and turned around to follow it. Two other witnesses report seeing the same truck Rob described. So I guess they could all have it wrong and the vehilcle was really a blue ford pinto?

Cops dont have to be superhuman to get on a radio and start alerting every available officer in a hundred mile radius. All they needed was a very basic description of the truck which is driving at a high rate of speed at midnight on a weekday. Not exactly a neddle in a hay stack.

[TheCars1986]

Originally Posted by CuriousMind90

If not for waiting around, he could've just grabbed her as soon as he got out of his truck. Instead he waited for around maybe 15 minutes to a half hour. If he just grabbed her as soon as he pulled up next to her, no description of him to whoever she was on the phone with (from his POV). Also, he used the phone next to her. Now we don't know if he was wearing gloves, but if he wasn't, then for a criminal, that was an utterly stupid move. Then to even talk on the phone? That shows cajones. This guy seemed to KNOW he wouldn't be caught...Makes you wonder what made him so confidant--Because he was either very confidant or very foolish.

I do wonder if he did follow her for a little while. She and her friend had been ''trucking around'' for the past hour or so until Angie went to the phone booth after dropping the friend off. This guy could've been tailing them from a distance for a while and they wouldn't have noticed it. It's not likely, but possible.

Also, the circling. I wonder if he circled because he wasn't sure if he was going to do it, or if he was circling to do a thorough check of the area to ensure that she was truly utterly alone. I wonder this because the former or latter would both say something about his level of intelligence and perhaps even his experience.

I agree with this guy possibly following her to the phone booth. And the circling was in all likelihood his attempt to see if there were any witnesses or to check his surroundings. In that case that would make this guy a crafty killer, not some below-average intelligent carpenter. And I think this guy had a hand in Cheryl Kenney's disappearance as well, and if he isn't dead or incarcerated he's probably continued abducting and killing women.

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by kane7474

Once again, Angela stood there on the phone and gave Rob a description of the truck. Rob saw the same truck pass and and turned around to follow it. Two other witnesses report seeing the same truck Rob described. So I guess they could all have it wrong and the vehilcle was really a blue ford pinto?

Cops dont have to be superhuman to get on a radio and start alerting every available officer in a hundred mile radius. All they needed was a very basic description of the truck which is driving at a high rate of speed at midnight on a weekday. Not exactly a neddle in a hay stack.

If the suspect altered his vehicle, yes. Every one of them could "have it wrong." It is also, by no means, a stretch to assume that four people could recall multiple elements of the truck incorrectly, leading to the police having incorrect or incomplete information. Remember that child's game Telephone? Similar ordeal.

I wasn't there that night, nor have I ever lived in or near Clinton, MO. There is absolutely no telling where that man and Angela went after leaving downtown Clinton. Perhaps there are backroads. Perhaps there are access trails. Perhaps there are very secluded areas. It's dark. There are many complicating factors.

It's very easy and compelling to want to find a party "worthy" of absolute blame, but simply put, the world just isn't black and white.

(Additionally, I highly doubt that the Clinton Police Department had the capacity to "get on a radio and start alerting every available officer in a hundred mile radius", as police departments don't communicate with other agencies that way! They have internal systems, and they're based on geographic/jurisdiction area. (Most of the time. Many states now have statewide networks now, but I highly doubt city/county patrols are regularly equipped with acess.) If CPD wanted to contact another agency in 1990, they'd send a computer message, fax, or maybe even a Teletype. Dispatch would then relay that information via an alert or APB to its own members through its own channel(s).)