Angela Hammond - Girl abducted from phone booth

[SageSlowdive]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

No way she's still alive. She was abducted in her teens and there's no doubt in my mind if she had a way to escape/get help she would have done so a long time ago. I could see if she were abducted as an infant or toddler, but I think she was too old to be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Does anyone know what became of her boyfriend Rob?

I think Rob joined the army and got married. He probably still suffers from grief to this day...

[SageSlowdive]

Originally Posted by CuriousMind90

Does anyone think there's any possibility that maybe she's alive?

The way she was abducted, I suspect Angela probably died that night.

[CuriousMind90]

Originally Posted by kane7474

I have been saying this since I read the letters from him. Why where these other people never brought up on charges?? Why was Rush not offered any kind of deal by prosecution to go into details about the other women he spoke of or to finger the other people involved? Lots of unanswered questions here.

Maybe someone should pay him at a visit in jail, ask him a few questions. Don't know how risky that might be though.

Charney seems to be (even though they are both psychos) the less sociopathic of the brothers. Rush on the other hand was a pure thrill killer--He seemed to enjoy inflicting suffering on women from what his letters said.

I wonder if there's some way they could be made to talk.

Also, one argument for the perp being a local or at least knowledgable about the area:

I looked up the site of her abduction on google maps, and one of the posts here said Rob lost the chase at Culvert Drive and 2nd Ave. I wasn't able to see any "Culvert Drive" but I was able to see along 2nd Avenue, about 2 miles down from the scene is a "Charles Culvird Drive". Now, the road they were going down (the abductor and rob) has THIRTEEN different streets to turn off onto from 2nd Avenue. I'm not sure on what street Rob caught up with them on, and I'm not sure if the perp turned onto the East or Westbound side of the road--both sides have the same name "Calvird Drive."

The perp, for whatever reason, chose Culvird Drive, to turn off on. He could've picked any of the others but according to Google Maps, Calvird Drive passes by several small bodies of water, for one. It also (if you later make turns on that Drive) leads to a huge park, which has several bodies of water, and what looks like woodland.

Was it random, or perhaps did the Perp have a pre-arranged escape route....Hmm.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by SageSlowdive

The way she was abducted, I suspect Angela probably died that night.

That would be my first thought also but lets keep in mind that the abductor knew he had been seen. Did this change his plans? He had been chased by Rob, he knew that someone had a description of his vehicle and the police would be notified soon. So did that change things? Maybe he is a total nut and it didnt bother him, we must consider he did abduct a girl who was talking on the phone. Obviously the person on the other end will immediatley know that she has been abducted.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by CuriousMind90

Maybe someone should pay him at a visit in jail, ask him a few questions. Don't know how risky that might be though.

Charney seems to be (even though they are both psychos) the less sociopathic of the brothers. Rush on the other hand was a pure thrill killer--He seemed to enjoy inflicting suffering on women from what his letters said.

I wonder if there's some way they could be made to talk.

Also, one argument for the perp being a local or at least knowledgable about the area:

I looked up the site of her abduction on google maps, and one of the posts here said Rob lost the chase at Culvert Drive and 2nd Ave. I wasn't able to see any "Culvert Drive" but I was able to see along 2nd Avenue, about 2 miles down from the scene is a "Charles Culvird Drive". Now, the road they were going down (the abductor and rob) has THIRTEEN different streets to turn off onto from 2nd Avenue. I'm not sure on what street Rob caught up with them on, and I'm not sure if the perp turned onto the East or Westbound side of the road--both sides have the same name "Calvird Drive."

The perp, for whatever reason, chose Culvird Drive, to turn off on. He could've picked any of the others but according to Google Maps, Calvird Drive passes by several small bodies of water, for one. It also (if you later make turns on that Drive) leads to a huge park, which has several bodies of water, and what looks like woodland.

Was it random, or perhaps did the Perp have a pre-arranged escape route....Hmm.

I see what you mean about the escape route but if he indeed had a planned route how in the world could he have known that someone would be at the payphone for him to abduct? How can you have a planned escape route when you cant possibly know ahead of time where you are going to need to escape from? Several witnesses did state they had seen the truck driving around so it is possible he was getting familiar with the layout. I cannot beileve he was a local though. there is just no way that no one would have known that truck. You mention there being wooded areas and bodies of water. Are you thinking the abductor just drove a short distance and then killed her and dumped her body? I doubt that because he knew hed been seen and knew the police would be out looking for him. I think he high tailed it outta town and killed her far away from Clinton.

As for Chaney and Rush being questioned, that is up to the police or the district attorneys. To my knowledge this hasnt happened yet but I could be wrong.

[CuriousMind90]

Originally Posted by kane7474

I see what you mean about the escape route but if he indeed had a planned route how in the world could he have known that someone would be at the payphone for him to abduct? How can you have a planned escape route when you cant possibly know ahead of time where you are going to need to escape from? Several witnesses did state they had seen the truck driving around so it is possible he was getting familiar with the layout. I cannot beileve he was a local though. there is just no way that no one would have known that truck. You mention there being wooded areas and bodies of water. Are you thinking the abductor just drove a short distance and then killed her and dumped her body? I doubt that because he knew hed been seen and knew the police would be out looking for him. I think he high tailed it outta town and killed her far away from Clinton.

As for Chaney and Rush being questioned, that is up to the police or the district attorneys. To my knowledge this hasnt happened yet but I could be wrong.

Well, Angela said they were ''circling.'' I do not think that that night was their first time in that area or county. And remember, Angie's attention wasn't totally focused on them--she was on the phone with Rob first and foremost. We don't know how long she and Rob were on the phone for before she noticed the truck. They were probably circling and getting a feel for the immediate area. They were probably circling the block to notice a few things:

1) Is there anybody around who will see me/us
2) What route will be the quickest to get back wherever we're intending to take this girl
3) What route is nearest to dump the body.

You have to try and think like a killer if you want to catch them. You know, the perp could have been in or around that parking lot LONG before Angie arrived. He could've been trucking around, looking for ''prey'' if you will and noticed her on the phone.

You know, they could've been following Angela that night before she got to the payphone. I read she was ''cruising around'' with a friend, and she dropped the friend off and then used the payphone. Who is to say they weren't following her, at a distance even, from the time she dropped the friend off? She wouldn't have noticed if they were tailing her well--She doesn't seem to have been the overly paranoid type.

After noticing her drop off her friend, he tails at a distance. He watches her stop and sees she's alone--Bingo. To ensure he's going to be successful, he circles the block to make sure she's totally alone--that there is no one out or around who will witness what he's about to do. I'm not sure on this point, since he didn't wait till she was off the phone to abduct her, which says to me he didn't care if anyone noticed.

The fact that he abducted her while she was on the phone is the strangest aspect of this to me. Had he waited till she was off the phone, he could've taken her and no one would ever have had a clue what happened to her, there also would be no description of him out there, or of his truck. That was a risky and bold move on his part--Makes me wonder if he ''knew'' the right people which would ensure he wouldn't be caught, if you get my drift.

I think it's significant that he passed by woodland and bodies of water because of the fish decal. If the fish decal wasn't a ''red herring'' to distract people from his identity, then that says to me the guy was a fisherman or a woodsy type--you know, someone who is around those woody and watery areas, accustomed to that kind of environment. I do think knowing they had been spotted they would have killed her faster than they might have otherwise. If you know heat is on your tail, the longer you keep an abductee with you, the riskier it is. For all her abductors might have known, the police might have been not far from them on their tail.

If you have abducted a girl, and you know she's alerted some guy's attention to you already, and you don't know if the cops are not far behind, are you going to want to keep her alive longer? That will just amount to her maybe trying to escape, or if you're found with her or her body with you, you being caught. I think she was brought somewhere, and the abductor did what he intended to her, and then killed her very quickly after. She was probably deceased within 4 hours after Rob lost them.

Her body, if there's anything left of it, or if wasn't burned that night (Rush & Chaney's MO), is to me somewhere in the Ozarks (which are huge and full of woods, mountains and water), or in a park or somewhere. I would bet green money it's in the state. The killer/abductor was someone accustomed with the woods, with the lakes and rivers of the area.

I have a feeling she might have been knocked out or perhaps even killed right after she screamed for Rob. The perp wouldn't have liked her drawing attention to them that way. I can imagine her screaming for Rob was responded to with either a punch (to the head or face) or her mouth being covered in some way. Notice she didn't scream after that--At least, Rob didn't report hearing her scream again.

I need to get acquainted with the area to fully figure this out. I'd love if someone could post pictures of the payphone booth and the parking lot from that time--before it turned into the car dealer and the payphone boothes were removed. I want to see what the area looked like--I'd like to try and reconstruct the crime mentally and see if I can glean anything from that. I kind of feel, to be honest, a little dedicated toward seeing this one solved. I'd also like to see how active the area is at night on average. It'd help me a lot in getting a feel for this case.

What I want to know is

1) Which direction Angie saw him/them coming from when she first noticed them--Where they are coming from might help indicate where they were going to take her.
2) Her exact description of the man
3) The supposed witnesses who also saw the man and truck Angie described--Who were these witnesses, and when did they see the man? Was it prior to his abduction of Angie; if so, how long before? It would help to know if this guy was prowling the parking lot even before Angie showed up.

I also want to see a 1991 era picture of Chaney (to see if he had a beard even then), and I want to see what the payphone boothes and parking lot looked like at the time of her abduction. It's changed too much now to really recreate the scene. This is a puzzle, and I want to see those pieces.

Also, the description of the abductor seems unclear. In one source, I've heard him described as having a beard. In another source, he had a mustache. In one source, he had glasses--But it's not specified if they meant eyeglasses or sunglasses. In other source, the witnesses saw him wearing a ball cap. That indicates either inefficiency on the part of the police and/or witnesses, or that there was more than one guy--One with a beard, the other with a mustache and glasses.

The person I trust most in this case in terms of the description of the perp is Angela. We need to know the EXACT description she gave. There is no reason for her to have lied or been misled about what the man looked like, she was the closest person to him in terms of distance. Her description of the man and his vehicle needs to be made public in exact detail, as does the length of her phone call with Rob, and how long she had noticed the truck circling for. All of these would help.

And actually, it is reasonable that he could have been a local. It doesn't seem that the local PD was that efficient back then. Also, it seems a lot of guys at that time had similar trucks--Apparently, Rob's own truck was very similar to the perp's truck, for example.

Also, Rush and Chaney said they used to take their victims to a barn to rape them, and possibly kill them there--Rush in his letters said the barn had a lot of evidence that would have put him on death row before it was burnt down. I'd love if I could know where that barn was--How far it was from where Angie was abducted, and what routes from where she was abducted would have led to it quickest. However, I am still not convinced that they were the perpetrators.

But let's say Rush and Chaney did it--If you look at their MO, it seems they were getting a bit bolder from the Darby murder. With the Darby murder, they waited until she was OFF the phone to get her--The safest option. If they got Angela, in this case they didn't even wait till she was off the phone, and one of them made the snide "I didn't need to use the phone, anyway." comment.

Something I've read about thrill, lust and power oriented serial killers is that as they kill more, their fantasies (which is what drives them to murder) become more intense and it becomes like an addiction--they need to kill more often, and more brutally each time. A thrill or lust motivated serial killer needs to up the ante with each kill. Look at Jack the Ripper--with the canonical five, the murders became more and more gruesome.

Maybe Chaney was the guy who abducted her (his mugshot as you said does fit the ''bearded, filthy guy'' description, but we don't know if he had a beard in 1991), but he might have been working on this particular victim with one of the associates Rush mentioned--Parel, Cheevers, or Marshall. Like I said in an earlier post, the truck could have belonged to any of those three. I don't think Rush went along for this one.

But again, that's IF Chaney and/or were her abductors. We don't know that for certain yet

Also, when Angela's brother came here, he said he thought the killers weren't Chaney and Rush, but might have been a group of people from a county or so over who had been involved with drugs. Rush, Chaney, Marshall, Cheevers and Parel do fit that profile--They lived a few counties over and did drugs (according to Rush, the only reason why Darby was disposed of in a river and not burned was because he was "too f*cked up" to argue with his brother about it). Angie's brother be close to the truth and not even know it, and have separate people conflated with each other.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by CuriousMind90

Well, Angela said they were ''circling.'' I do not think that that night was their first time in that area or county. And remember, Angie's attention wasn't totally focused on them--she was on the phone with Rob first and foremost. We don't know how long she and Rob were on the phone for before she noticed the truck. They were probably circling and getting a feel for the immediate area. They were probably circling the block to notice a few things:

1) Is there anybody around who will see me/us
2) What route will be the quickest to get back wherever we're intending to take this girl
3) What route is nearest to dump the body.

You have to try and think like a killer if you want to catch them. You know, the perp could have been in or around that parking lot LONG before Angie arrived. He could've been trucking around, looking for ''prey'' if you will and noticed her on the phone.

You know, they could've been following Angela that night before she got to the payphone. I read she was ''cruising around'' with a friend, and she dropped the friend off and then used the payphone. Who is to say they weren't following her, at a distance even, from the time she dropped the friend off? She wouldn't have noticed if they were tailing her well--She doesn't seem to have been the overly paranoid type.

After noticing her drop off her friend, he tails at a distance. He watches her stop and sees she's alone--Bingo. To ensure he's going to be successful, he circles the block to make sure she's totally alone--that there is no one out or around who will witness what he's about to do. I'm not sure on this point, since he didn't wait till she was off the phone to abduct her, which says to me he didn't care if anyone noticed.

The fact that he abducted her while she was on the phone is the strangest aspect of this to me. Had he waited till she was off the phone, he could've taken her and no one would ever have had a clue what happened to her, there also would be no description of him out there, or of his truck. That was a risky and bold move on his part--Makes me wonder if he ''knew'' the right people which would ensure he wouldn't be caught, if you get my drift.

I think it's significant that he passed by woodland and bodies of water because of the fish decal. If the fish decal wasn't a ''red herring'' to distract people from his identity, then that says to me the guy was a fisherman or a woodsy type--you know, someone who is around those woody and watery areas, accustomed to that kind of environment. I do think knowing they had been spotted they would have killed her faster than they might have otherwise. If you know heat is on your tail, the longer you keep an abductee with you, the riskier it is. For all her abductors might have known, the police might have been not far from them on their tail.

If you have abducted a girl, and you know she's alerted some guy's attention to you already, and you don't know if the cops are not far behind, are you going to want to keep her alive longer? That will just amount to her maybe trying to escape, or if you're found with her or her body with you, you being caught. I think she was brought somewhere, and the abductor did what he intended to her, and then killed her very quickly after. She was probably deceased within 4 hours after Rob lost them.

Her body, if there's anything left of it, or if wasn't burned that night (Rush & Chaney's MO), is to me somewhere in the Ozarks (which are huge and full of woods, mountains and water), or in a park or somewhere. I would bet green money it's in the state. The killer/abductor was someone accustomed with the woods, with the lakes and rivers of the area.

I have a feeling she might have been knocked out or perhaps even killed right after she screamed for Rob. The perp wouldn't have liked her drawing attention to them that way. I can imagine her screaming for Rob was responded to with either a punch (to the head or face) or her mouth being covered in some way. Notice she didn't scream after that--At least, Rob didn't report hearing her scream again.

I need to get acquainted with the area to fully figure this out. I'd love if someone could post pictures of the payphone booth and the parking lot from that time--before it turned into the car dealer and the payphone boothes were removed. I want to see what the area looked like--I'd like to try and reconstruct the crime mentally and see if I can glean anything from that. I kind of feel, to be honest, a little dedicated toward seeing this one solved. I'd also like to see how active the area is at night on average. It'd help me a lot in getting a feel for this case.

What I want to know is

1) Which direction Angie saw him/them coming from when she first noticed them--Where they are coming from might help indicate where they were going to take her.
2) Her exact description of the man
3) The supposed witnesses who also saw the man and truck Angie described--Who were these witnesses, and when did they see the man? Was it prior to his abduction of Angie; if so, how long before? It would help to know if this guy was prowling the parking lot even before Angie showed up.

I also want to see a 1991 era picture of Chaney (to see if he had a beard even then), and I want to see what the payphone boothes and parking lot looked like at the time of her abduction. It's changed too much now to really recreate the scene. This is a puzzle, and I want to see those pieces.

Also, the description of the abductor seems unclear. In one source, I've heard him described as having a beard. In another source, he had a mustache. In one source, he had glasses--But it's not specified if they meant eyeglasses or sunglasses. In other source, the witnesses saw him wearing a ball cap. That indicates either inefficiency on the part of the police and/or witnesses, or that there was more than one guy--One with a beard, the other with a mustache and glasses.

The person I trust most in this case in terms of the description of the perp is Angela. We need to know the EXACT description she gave. There is no reason for her to have lied or been misled about what the man looked like, she was the closest person to him in terms of distance. Her description of the man and his vehicle needs to be made public in exact detail, as does the length of her phone call with Rob, and how long she had noticed the truck circling for. All of these would help.

And actually, it is reasonable that he could have been a local. It doesn't seem that the local PD was that efficient back then. Also, it seems a lot of guys at that time had similar trucks--Apparently, Rob's own truck was very similar to the perp's truck, for example.

Also, Rush and Chaney said they used to take their victims to a barn to rape them, and possibly kill them there--Rush in his letters said the barn had a lot of evidence that would have put him on death row before it was burnt down. I'd love if I could know where that barn was--How far it was from where Angie was abducted, and what routes from where she was abducted would have led to it quickest. However, I am still not convinced that they were the perpetrators.

But let's say Rush and Chaney did it--If you look at their MO, it seems they were getting a bit bolder from the Darby murder. With the Darby murder, they waited until she was OFF the phone to get her--The safest option. If they got Angela, in this case they didn't even wait till she was off the phone, and one of them made the snide "I didn't need to use the phone, anyway." comment.

Something I've read about thrill, lust and power oriented serial killers is that as they kill more, their fantasies (which is what drives them to murder) become more intense and it becomes like an addiction--they need to kill more often, and more brutally each time. A thrill or lust motivated serial killer needs to up the ante with each kill. Look at Jack the Ripper--with the canonical five, the murders became more and more gruesome.

Maybe Chaney was the guy who abducted her (his mugshot as you said does fit the ''bearded, filthy guy'' description, but we don't know if he had a beard in 1991), but he might have been working on this particular victim with one of the associates Rush mentioned--Parel, Cheevers, or Marshall. Like I said in an earlier post, the truck could have belonged to any of those three. I don't think Rush went along for this one.

But again, that's IF Chaney and/or were her abductors. We don't know that for certain yet

Also, when Angela's brother came here, he said he thought the killers weren't Chaney and Rush, but might have been a group of people from a county or so over who had been involved with drugs. Rush, Chaney, Marshall, Cheevers and Parel do fit that profile--They lived a few counties over and did drugs (according to Rush, the only reason why Darby was disposed of in a river and not burned was because he was "too f*cked up" to argue with his brother about it). Angie's brother be close to the truth and not even know it, and have separate people conflated with each other.

While it could be possible the abducter was tailing her Im gonna doubt that. Remember its a small town and its late with not many people out. It would be kinda hard for this 70s model truck to be following you (even at a distance) and you not be aware.
Remember, Rob stated he was on the phone with Angie for 30 minutes so the killer had time to see her and then drive around making sure no one was around. I read one account that stated the man in the truck pulled in talked on the payphone, then left and came back. Not sure which version is accurate.

It was a local Kansas City star article where I had read about atleast two other people seeing both the man and the truck. Im sure you can find those articles with some searching. If your wanting more specific info on this case then you should contact the clinton PD and ask for copies of police reports. I doubt they have them online yet but might be worth looking into. Also with the info you are seeking on Rush and Chaney you may want to contact the Camden county courthouse as that is where the men where tried. You should be able to get entire transcripts of the trials. I would love to read all thriteen pages of writing by Jess Rush. Trooper Tommy Mays of the Missouri Highway Patrol was the investigator that made the case against Rush. So if he's still around you might want to start with him.

I also think that Kenneth McDuff should be on the suspect list. He kidnapped and killed Colleen Reed in the exact same fashion that Angela was taken. He was known to be in Missouri around this time. He has been executed so he wont be talking but he did have an accomplice that I beileve is still around.

People find it so odd this case has not been solved but consider this. Trudy Darby was on the phone with her son and spoke of a suspicous man outside her store. The son headed up there within minutes but she was gone. The police where notified immediatley but the killers where not brought to justice for three years afterwards and only because one of them bragged about it to several people. This is what will have to happen for this case to be solved. Someone in the know must talk.

Again on the subject of the killer possibly being a local. This is a small town as we all know. The people here from small towns know that everyone knows everyone or at the very least knows who everyone is. Angela did not recognize this man or his truck. Rob did not recognize the truck as belonging to anyone he knew and the two other witnesses who saw the truck did not recognize it. Thats four people in all so I serioulsy doubt that this is some good ole boy that lived in Clinton and was never noticed. I understand there was more then a few 70s model trucks on the rd in 1991 but with Fish murals in the back window?? Also it had been mentioned that the DMV and ran checks for everyone owning this style of truck and came up with about 1200 statewide. So they where looking for the truck and Im sure any local with that type of truck had been talked to.

[cocytus]

This case sounds like one where a LOT of mistakes were made.

1) The boyfriend should have been the primary suspect in this case. Nobody witnessed her abduction.Nobody saw the car chase between him and the pickup truck. And apparently no one saw the pickup truck in question anywhere else in town.

If this had happened in a larger city w/ a more skeptical police force, he probably would have been extensively questioned after this incident and would have had to provide a more solid alibi than he did in this case.

2) The police claim that 1600 pickups matched this description. Did all 1600 have the same tire prints left when the driver stopped at the phone booth? How about the decal in the rear window? There aren't many places that do that. If it looked to a professional job, how many places in that part of the state did that kind of work?

3) Given the fact that the killer felt comfortable enough to drive around the downtown of a small town at night ( usually a location where at least one officer intermittently patrols) and was knowledgeable enough to know which streets would lead him quickly, and relatively quietly, from the area, wouldn't it be natural to assume that somebody in the town would have seen this truck at least once before?

4) Apparently there were no fingerprints on or around either phone booth. Was no DNA left on or around the scene? How about items that may have fallen out of the vehicle?

5) Why wouldn't the boyfriend either have driven down to the phone booth BEFORE the abduction or told his girlfriend to return to his house immediately?

IMHO, unless they find a body or there's a confession, this case will remained unsolved.
Why?
Because too many procedural errors have been made and too much time has passed since the disappearance.

[CuriousMind90]

Originally Posted by cocytus

This case sounds like one where a LOT of mistakes were made.

1) The boyfriend should have been the primary suspect in this case. Nobody witnessed her abduction.Nobody saw the car chase between him and the pickup truck. And apparently no one saw the pickup truck in question anywhere else in town.

If this had happened in a larger city w/ a more skeptical police force, he probably would have been extensively questioned after this incident and would have had to provide a more solid alibi than he did in this case.

2) The police claim that 1600 pickups matched this description. Did all 1600 have the same tire prints left when the driver stopped at the phone booth? How about the decal in the rear window? There aren't many places that do that. If it looked to a professional job, how many places in that part of the state did that kind of work?

3) Given the fact that the killer felt comfortable enough to drive around the downtown of a small town at night ( usually a location where at least one officer intermittently patrols) and was knowledgeable enough to know which streets would lead him quickly, and relatively quietly, from the area, wouldn't it be natural to assume that somebody in the town would have seen this truck at least once before?

4) Apparently there were no fingerprints on or around either phone booth. Was no DNA left on or around the scene? How about items that may have fallen out of the vehicle?

5) Why wouldn't the boyfriend either have driven down to the phone booth BEFORE the abduction or told his girlfriend to return to his house immediately?

IMHO, unless they find a body or there's a confession, this case will remained unsolved.
Why?
Because too many procedural errors have been made and too much time has passed since the disappearance.

Point 4 is the biggest one to me.
According to Angela, the guy used the phone next to her before returning to his truck. There HAD to have been prints on that goddamn phone. He picked it up, he used it, and Angela didn't say he was wearing gloves or anything--although, that is possible. You don't need even DNA evidence like blood or whatever--so long as you have prints.

And as far as a confession, I have an idea about that. These guys--at least Rush--seem to like to talk. Someone should go have a chat with them or their free associates.

I want this one to be solved.

[cocytus]

Originally Posted by CuriousMind90

Point 4 is the biggest one to me.
According to Angela, the guy used the phone next to her before returning to his truck. There HAD to have been prints on that goddamn phone. He picked it up, he used it, and Angela didn't say he was wearing gloves or anything--although, that is possible. You don't need even DNA evidence like blood or whatever--so long as you have prints.

And as far as a confession, I have an idea about that. These guys--at least Rush--seem to like to talk. Someone should go have a chat with them or their free associates.

I want this one to be solved.

Just watched the segment again.
If he DID use the phone, who did he call?
Wouldn't that have lead investigators somewhere?
And there would also be prints on the CHANGE he used?
Or DNA?

[CuriousMind90]

Originally Posted by cocytus

Just watched the segment again.
If he DID use the phone, who did he call?
Wouldn't that have lead investigators somewhere?
And there would also be prints on the CHANGE he used?
Or DNA?

I think he claimed the phone was broken, and when asked by Angie if he wanted to use the phone, he said he'd ''try back later.''

I don't think he actually made a call, but he did touch the phone.

I'd love to see what the booths looked like and the parking lot looked like. It's changed too much now to mentally piece it together.

And your questions about the change and DNA are good ones.
I think if you and I had been working the case in '91 we could've had it solved. Unfortunately I was still in diapers in 1991.

Also...If it's true that Angie and Rob spoke on the phone for 30 minutes, that means their conversation started at around 11:15.

I wonder at what time she first noticed the truck--even approximately. How long was it circling for before it stopped? Was it circling around the entire block or simply the parking lot.

I don't think the killer was McDuff. McDuff wasn't in MO until 1992; All of his killings were in Texas. He also didn't fit the profile (cleanshaven, not ''country'' looking) in terms of appearance.

I did read that around 127 convicted murderers were released from the Texas Prison System at the same time as McDuff, though, due to prison overcrowding.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by cocytus

Just watched the segment again.
If he DID use the phone, who did he call?
Wouldn't that have lead investigators somewhere?
And there would also be prints on the CHANGE he used?
Or DNA?

You cannot always lift a good finger print for starters and secondly he very well could have been wearing gloves. Also how many other fingerprints and dna do you think would have been on that phone? Alot to say the least. You have to also consider that if this was a random abduction by someone without a criminal record then what are you gonna do with fingerprints if you get them? I doubt he called anyone, Im sure its obvious that using the phone was nothing but a ploy while he planned how he was gonna get her.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by cocytus

This case sounds like one where a LOT of mistakes were made.

1) The boyfriend should have been the primary suspect in this case. Nobody witnessed her abduction.Nobody saw the car chase between him and the pickup truck. And apparently no one saw the pickup truck in question anywhere else in town.

If this had happened in a larger city w/ a more skeptical police force, he probably would have been extensively questioned after this incident and would have had to provide a more solid alibi than he did in this case.

2) The police claim that 1600 pickups matched this description. Did all 1600 have the same tire prints left when the driver stopped at the phone booth? How about the decal in the rear window? There aren't many places that do that. If it looked to a professional job, how many places in that part of the state did that kind of work?

3) Given the fact that the killer felt comfortable enough to drive around the downtown of a small town at night ( usually a location where at least one officer intermittently patrols) and was knowledgeable enough to know which streets would lead him quickly, and relatively quietly, from the area, wouldn't it be natural to assume that somebody in the town would have seen this truck at least once before?

4) Apparently there were no fingerprints on or around either phone booth. Was no DNA left on or around the scene? How about items that may have fallen out of the vehicle?

5) Why wouldn't the boyfriend either have driven down to the phone booth BEFORE the abduction or told his girlfriend to return to his house immediately?

IMHO, unless they find a body or there's a confession, this case will remained unsolved.
Why?
Because too many procedural errors have been made and too much time has passed since the disappearance.

1.The boyfriend was the primary suspect from the start. He was thouroghly investigated and cleared. He even passed a polygraph. There is a timeline of events and witness statements that proves he didnt have the means to pull this off. Angela Hammond's brother whom posted in this forum cited this timeline as to why his family never suspected Rob. He provided a solid alibi. Have you been following the case?

2. When they ran the check for trucks matching the description they don't get info on who has decals in the back window. There was actually alot of people doing that back then and you also have to figure the driver could have done it himself. It could have just been a large sticker. If it was an out of state truck then you can forget ever tracking it down by trying to find what shop put the decal on.

3. There was alteast two other witnesses mentioned in the Kansas city star article that had seen the truck cruising around that night.

4. There may have been fingerprints but how do you decipher them from other prints. There would be hundreds of prints on the phone. If something did fall out of the abductors vehicle then how do you know where it came from. How do you exclude it from falling from another vehicle?

5. The boyfriend was at home babysitting his younger brother. Angela did not have a phone in her house and was just calling to talk before going home and going to bed. This is why he didnt tell her to come to his house and why he didnt immediatley go down there when getting her call.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by CuriousMind90

I think he claimed the phone was broken, and when asked by Angie if he wanted to use the phone, he said he'd ''try back later.''

I don't think he actually made a call, but he did touch the phone.

I'd love to see what the booths looked like and the parking lot looked like. It's changed too much now to mentally piece it together.

And your questions about the change and DNA are good ones.
I think if you and I had been working the case in '91 we could've had it solved. Unfortunately I was still in diapers in 1991.

Also...If it's true that Angie and Rob spoke on the phone for 30 minutes, that means their conversation started at around 11:15.

I wonder at what time she first noticed the truck--even approximately. How long was it circling for before it stopped? Was it circling around the entire block or simply the parking lot.

I don't think the killer was McDuff. McDuff wasn't in MO until 1992; All of his killings were in Texas. He also didn't fit the profile (cleanshaven, not ''country'' looking) in terms of appearance.

I did read that around 127 convicted murderers were released from the Texas Prison System at the same time as McDuff, though, due to prison overcrowding.

Again my advice to you would be to contact the Clinton PD and request all the police reports they have on the case. Im sure there are pictures in there of the layout right after it happened.
After watching this segment again Im leaning a little more towards there being more then one abductor. Here's why, Rob states that Angie screamed into the phone and then he hears someone calmly state " I didnt need to use the phone anyway". Now if he is trying to get a screaming, struggling grown woman into his truck how is he gonna take the time to calmly say that and hang the phone up? Sounds to me like she had her eyes on him and was suprised by someone else and as she was being drug to the truck by the accomplice then the filthy man walks over, makes that comment and hangs the phone up. Then he gets in the truck and drives while the other person keeps her subdued.

[CuriousMind90]

Originally Posted by kane7474

Again my advice to you would be to contact the Clinton PD and request all the police reports they have on the case. Im sure there are pictures in there of the layout right after it happened.
After watching this segment again Im leaning a little more towards there being more then one abductor. Here's why, Rob states that Angie screamed into the phone and then he hears someone calmly state " I didnt need to use the phone anyway". Now if he is trying to get a screaming, struggling grown woman into his truck how is he gonna take the time to calmly say that and hang the phone up? Sounds to me like she had her eyes on him and was suprised by someone else and as she was being drug to the truck by the accomplice then the filthy man walks over, makes that comment and hangs the phone up. Then he gets in the truck and drives while the other person keeps her subdued.

Man I wish someone had been there that night who had a gun.
Could've ended her abductors that very night and saved her life all in one shot.
This case angers me more than it upsets me, to be honest. This should not have happened. She should be alive now.

I don't think the PD would give me any information. I'm not a cop and I'm not a relative. It also might seem strange to them that someone would be requesting info after all this time.

And you're right on that, BUT
If the guy was very strong he could've grabbed her with one arm and used the phone with the other.

Also, her screaming doesn't necessarily mean he grabbed her. He could've hit her or stabbed her, and made that comment. We don't know if she wasn't physically attacked in some manner. But the two guy theory is possible, it's just:

Which direction would they have been coming from? The booths (in the UM segment) seemed to be partly see through. Let's say her back was turned to the Bearded Guy, she'd be facing the booth. The other guy couldn't come through the phone booth. You know what I'm saying? Layout wise I don't see how a second guy could've been there and not been noticed.