Cindy James - Suicide or Murder?

[ChrissySnow]

From a logistical standpoint, HOW could Cindy have injected herself and then hogtied herself and dispose the needle?
I'd love to hear some theories on that.

Also, was it confirmed that she was injected with morphine?
Or could it have been pills?

The phone call to Cindy does sound like a woman trying to sound like a man...and it is actually quite creepy.
I wish someone listed the *known facts* of this case.
I have never been so "on the fence" before.
I usually develop a theory from early on...and it may change or evolve, but with this case, I can't get any firm ideas, since so many things don't make sense.

[dynoguy88]

Originally Posted by Charlie99909

Let me ask for those members who might know. I see there are two books about Cindy James on Amazon. Both are from roughly the same time perioed (early 90's). My question is, which is the best book? One actually has an error on the dust jacket of when she died. I see Neal Hall's book though is the most expensive and harder to come by.

Neal Hall's book is better. He doesn't take a side. He just states the facts and lets the readers conclude for themselves. I bought his book off of Amazon in 2001 for just $2.00.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

Originally Posted by dynoguy88

Neal Hall's book is better. He doesn't take a side. He just states the facts and lets the readers conclude for themselves. I bought his book off of Amazon in 2001 for just $2.00.

Jealous! It's 10x that now..

[dynoguy88]

If anyone wants more information about specifics, I can check the book and write down what it says.

For instance, here is an excerpt regarding the drugs found in Cindy's system as stated at the inquest...

By June 29, the preliminary toxicology tests showed Cindy had an overdose level of the prescription drug flurazepam in her system. Constable Jerry Anderson said he was informed that she likely would have remained conscious for no longer than 20 minutes after taking the drug. The level of flurazepam was eventually determined to be 10 times that of a lethal dose.

As for the morphine, also found at a level 10 times that of a lethal dose, Leask (attorney hired by Cindy's family) suggested that drug experts could not tell if it had been injected or ingested.

"That's true." Anderson said he learned that morphine was used on the hospital ward where Cindy worked, although there is a tight narcotic-control system in place at the hospital.

"Every drop of morphine used and received is recorded?" Leask asked.

"Yes."

"Did you check those records?"

"No," said Anderson, as Cindy's family and friends sighed in disgust. "I was told by the hospital there was no shortages.

"What other sources of morphine are there?"

"Drugstores, the street, doctor offices."

Anderson agreed with Leask that he did not check to see if there had been any drug store thefts of morphine prior to Cindy's disappearance, and he did not investigate Dr. Makepeace's access to morphine.

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that, because of the state of decomposition of the body, it was difficult to determine whether the overdoses of morphine and flurazepam had been administered orally or by injection.

Carlyle theorized that the flurazepam was ingested orally since tablets were found in the contents of her stomach. She also believed it was likely that the morphine was ingested despite the needle mark on Cindy's arm.

Although Carlyle agreed with Leask that she could not rule out the skin puncture as an injection site for the morphine administered by someone other than Cindy, she added, "it is entirely conceivable and feasible that this could be a self-contrived event."

Carlyle had one reason to believe that Cindy had been alive where her body was eventually found. She felt that Cindy had been kneeling on her neatly spread out coat and had fallen over on her right side as she lost consciousness. Moreover, there was some mobility of the body as death neared, judging from how she was found. Her right knee had worked it's way under the natural vegetation floor which suggested the body hadn't been dropped after death but had some mobility until death."

Toxicologist Heather Dinn estimated the amount of flurazepam in Cindy's body would amount to 20-30 mg. tablets or up to 80 tablets of a lower dosage. She did not know how long it would take to swallow that many tablets.

Pharmacology expert John McNeil, who reviewed the toxicology test results, testified that either of the drugs in Cindy's body could have killed her. Both morphine and flurazepam cause progressive sedation and decrease brain activity, and an overdose would cause the person to become drowsy, then induce a coma and eventually death.

McNeil concluded the flurazepam was taken orally since it is only available by oral prescription. He estimated the dose in Cindy's system would have taken 15-20 minutes to sedate her and up to four hours to kill her.

The morphine could have been injected or taken orally, since it is available in tablet or liquid prescriptions. If ingested orally, McNeil noted, it could have been self administered and rendered Cindy unconscious within 15 to 30 minutes and could have been taken 30 minutes after the flurazepam.

If injected, the morphine must have been administered by someone other than Cindy since unconsciousness would have occurred almost immediately and killed her within 15 to 20 minutes, McNeil said.

As the death scene segment of the inquest ended with another puzzling possibility, it was clear that the police did not have any conclusive physical evidence that would prove Cindy James died of her own hand. Each portion of testimony seemed to be riddled with ambiguity.

After hearing months of testimony heavily laced with complex medical and psychiatric jargon that was confusing and tedious, the members of the jury looked weary. They wondered if they would ever get back to their normal lives.

[LilMissKryssy]

Originally Posted by dynoguy88

If anyone wants more information about specifics, I can check the book and write down what it says.

For instance, here is an excerpt regarding the drugs found in Cindy's system as stated at the inquest...

By June 29, the preliminary toxicology tests showed Cindy had an overdose level of the prescription drug flurazepam in her system. Constable Jerry Anderson said he was informed that she likely would have remained conscious for no longer than 20 minutes after taking the drug. The level of flurazepam was eventually determined to be 10 times that of a lethal dose.

As for the morphine, also found at a level 10 times that of a lethal dose, Leask (attorney hired by Cindy's family) suggested that drug experts could not tell if it had been injected or ingested.

"That's true." Anderson said he learned that morphine was used on the hospital ward where Cindy worked, although there is a tight narcotic-control system in place at the hospital.

"Every drop of morphine used and received is recorded?" Leask asked.

"Yes."

"Did you check those records?"

"No," said Anderson, as Cindy's family and friends sighed in disgust. "I was told by the hospital there was no shortages.

"What other sources of morphine are there?"

"Drugstores, the street, doctor offices."

Anderson agreed with Leask that he did not check to see if there had been any drug store thefts of morphine prior to Cindy's disappearance, and he did not investigate Dr. Makepeace's access to morphine.

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that, because of the state of decomposition of the body, it was difficult to determine whether the overdoses of morphine and flurazepam had been administered orally or by injection.

Carlyle theorized that the flurazepam was ingested orally since tablets were found in the contents of her stomach. She also believed it was likely that the morphine was ingested despite the needle mark on Cindy's arm.

Although Carlyle agreed with Leask that she could not rule out the skin puncture as an injection site for the morphine administered by someone other than Cindy, she added, "it is entirely conceivable and feasible that this could be a self-contrived event."

Carlyle had one reason to believe that Cindy had been alive where her body was eventually found. She felt that Cindy had been kneeling on her neatly spread out coat and had fallen over on her right side as she lost consciousness. Moreover, there was some mobility of the body as death neared, judging from how she was found. Her right knee had worked it's way under the natural vegetation floor which suggested the body hadn't been dropped after death but had some mobility until death."

Toxicologist Heather Dinn estimated the amount of flurazepam in Cindy's body would amount to 20-30 mg. tablets or up to 80 tablets of a lower dosage. She did not know how long it would take to swallow that many tablets.

Pharmacology expert John McNeil, who reviewed the toxicology test results, testified that either of the drugs in Cindy's body could have killed her. Both morphine and flurazepam cause progressive sedation and decrease brain activity, and an overdose would cause the person to become drowsy, then induce a coma and eventually death.

McNeil concluded the flurazepam was taken orally since it is only available by oral prescription. He estimated the dose in Cindy's system would have taken 15-20 minutes to sedate her and up to four hours to kill her.

The morphine could have been injected or taken orally, since it is available in tablet or liquid prescriptions. If ingested orally, McNeil noted, it could have been self administered and rendered Cindy unconscious within 15 to 30 minutes and could have been taken 30 minutes after the flurazepam.

If injected, the morphine must have been administered by someone other than Cindy since unconsciousness would have occurred almost immediately and killed her within 15 to 20 minutes, McNeil said.

As the death scene segment of the inquest ended with another puzzling possibility, it was clear that the police did not have any conclusive physical evidence that would prove Cindy James died of her own hand. Each portion of testimony seemed to be riddled with ambiguity.

After hearing months of testimony heavily laced with complex medical and psychiatric jargon that was confusing and tedious, the members of the jury looked weary. They wondered if they would ever get back to their normal lives.

.

Wow thank you so much!!! Okay now that changes my whole opinion again. Since she did have pills in her stomach,the other sedative, I'm seriously inclined to believe she killed herself. If she was murdered, it's just kind of ridiculous. I have watched documentaries about the "right to die" for the terminally I'll and it is very hard for anyone to swallow that many pills. Obviously, it can be done as they do do it, but if a murderer is trying to force her to swallow 80 pills and she's putting up a fight to survive , I really can't fathom how or why they would go through the trouble of trying to make her swallow 80 pills when there were do many other easy ways to kill her. Also, he doesn't mention this but heroin metabolizes as morphine in the body and always comes up on medical reports ect as "morphine". I wonder if they ever ruled out heroin. You can take heroin many ways so just a though. Also, if she took the morphine first (morphine also comes in liquid form so you can swallow it quick) and then swallowed (albeit quickly) the other sensitive pills both would've taken about 20 minutes to knock her out. The morphine just would've killed her faster. That would've given her 20-25mins after ingestion to tie herself up. She also , if she was doing this to herself, had practice tying herself up and putting that sticking around her throat. I honestly haven't heard of a murderer attempting to make a murder that's an overdose look like a strangling? It's bizarre

[ChrissySnow]

If she did, in fact, swallow the pills, it makes for a much stronger case that she killed herself. I mean, there was no evidence of another person, such as DNA or a witness, and that creepy call she received sounded like a woman.

It is so bizarre to go to such extreme lengths to kill yourself.
I wonder what the thought process is...was she doing it to get attention?
To hope that someone would save her?

I am still not totally convinced that she wasn't murdered, but I'm leaning more toward the suicide theory.

[Nickolas086]

I could of swore there was a scene from the case where a family member, trusted friend or neighbor heard a voice over the walkie or com system when she was getting attacked in the house.....

[LilMissKryssy]

Originally Posted by Nickolas086

I could of swore there was a scene from the case where a family member, trusted friend or neighbor heard a voice over the walkie or com system when she was getting attacked in the house.....

Nobody heard a voice coming from the 2 way radio. Her private investigator she hired heard "funny sounds" coming from it and went over to her house to check on her.

Also, she accused her ex husband of being her stalker. He always denied it and always testified at the inquest held after her death. He was 18 years her senior which would've put him in his 60s when she was killed. Police did investigate him though throughly according to this news video on YouTube but believe he had nothing to do with it. The voice on his answering machine that he turned over to police sounds a lot like a woman trying to disguise their voice

[Orange_Sody_84]

I think the more I read about the case is that she had mental issues. Many things point to her being the mysterious assailant. I think she was having episodes and truly believed she was being stalked etc. Very sad.

[XCalibur]

Always had a hard time believing she committed suicide. I can't imagine how she would have managed to tie her own hands, and concoct such an elaborate suicide scene winding up in the yard of an old abandoned house.

Plus the guy they interviewed from the RCMP who was championing the suicide theory did not inspire a whole lot confidence. He looked like someone who you would see down at the mall playing Magic the Gathering with friends rather than a good cop.

Similar to the Wackers, I've always been of the opinion cases like this simply have to be treated seriously until its proven that its in someone's head. Just because law enforcement is not smart enough to find a suspect doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Forensic science has come a long way since Cindy James died, can't help but feel a modern forensics team might either destroy or prove the suicide theory.

[Orange_Sody_84]

"He looked like someone who you would see down at the mall playing Magic the Gathering with friends rather than a good cop." Lol. :-D It's been awhile since I watched the segment. I know on YT there are segments of the case on the news.

I go back and forth with is it suicide or murder actually. It's such a bizarre case. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Cindy is pretty much always alone when something odd happens. (being discovered with the Knife in her hand, the fire starting in the Basement, the weird notes,) to her bizarre behavior of walking a Dog alone at 3 a.m. alone when she is seemingly being stalked. (She moved once too right? and the calls followed her) the creepy message on her machine resembles a Woman.

I'm gonna assume it was proven that the calls were actually happening in real time? (as in no way she could've made them up. Do they show up so to speak? Did the Cops try to trace them?) Thought I read a Detective was in her Kitchen when some calls came in.

it's bizarre she was found hogtied and OD'd on Morphine for sure. As others have posted she could've drank it or taken it in Pill form. I'm assuming if she was a Nurse she could've sneaked some from her Workplace. Did anyone ever check if there were shortages nearby? Is it really impossible she couldn't have tied herself up? I probably wouldn't be able to but others probably are able to. (I'm gonna go back and read some Posts on the case for the heck of it.)

[XCalibur]

But that begs the question, if Cindy was doped up on pills, how did she manage to tie herself up? And if she tied herself up first, how did she inject the drugs? Hog tying yourself would be a helluva trick even if you were sober. I can't imagine how you'd do it with the low dexterity that comes with being doped up.

As for the incidents only occurring when Cindy was alone, this is not as remarkable as people make out. If someone has an idea of your schedule or routine, they could easily strike only when you are alone. Or if it is easy to tell if anyone is around. What I wonder is did any of the PI's involved conduct surveillance on Cindy's place without Cindy's knowledge or anyone else's? If they had, it seems like this could have been resolved. If she was doing it to herself it seems like they surely could have caught her in the act, unless you think she had ESP and knew when they were watching her. If they had caught her in the act, then they could have had her committed somewhere where she could have hopefully gotten real help she needed. If not, they might could have nailed the perp.

Also like I said forensic science has advanced a great deal since 1989. I can't help but have the gut feeling a modern Forensics team might have painted a very different picture of this case. I mean, if Cindy's scratches came from her own fingernails, they could have found her own skin under her fingernails. that's just one example.

[Necco]

It really depends on how the knots were tied. If they were tied in parallel in such a way that pulling one end would tighten the whole lot, it could be done, even dopey.

I have some friends who frequently like to overshare about their indoor sporting activities. (No judgment from me other than… dude, I don't want to think about some guy I went to 7th grade catechism with like that!) You'd be amazed what people can do to themselves.

[dynoguy88]

Originally Posted by XCalibur

As for the incidents only occurring when Cindy was alone, this is not as remarkable as people make out. If someone has an idea of your schedule or routine, they could easily strike only when you are alone. Or if it is easy to tell if anyone is around. What I wonder is did any of the PI's involved conduct surveillance on Cindy's place without Cindy's knowledge or anyone else's? If they had, it seems like this could have been resolved. If she was doing it to herself it seems like they surely could have caught her in the act, unless you think she had ESP and knew when they were watching her. If they had caught her in the act, then they could have had her committed somewhere where she could have hopefully gotten real help she needed. If not, they might could have nailed the perp.

Everything you stated right here is what angers me about the police's involvement during the entire ordeal. You have to read the books to really understand the frustration they caused but basically, the police, or at least the majority of the police, did not believe Cindy was being stalked for a good portion of those 6 1/2 years. Surveillance on her house was always known to her. It wasn't until after she was dead, at the inquest, where they stated they wished they had told her that surveillance was done for the evening but secretly continue to watch her to see if they could catch her in the act. But they never did that. It's kind of pathetic that a police force could spend year after year after year not believing someone and yet STILL not be able to catch a prowler or her faking the who ordeal. They got nothing.

If I'm one of those officers and I think she's behind the whole thing, I would be personally obsessed with busting her and get someone to watch her non-stop.

When Cindy wasn't working full time or being watched by police, the effort to pretend to be stalked would have consumed every minute of her life. All of those threatening notes that were mailed to her home and her work as well as the threatening poster boards that were constantly left on her doorstep had long messages spelled out that were cut and paste from magazines and newspapers, each letter being from a different publication. Do you know how insanely long and tedious each one of those would be to make?

And all those different incidents where dead cats were thrown on her front lawn. If Cindy was behind her torment, that would mean she would have had to either drive around the neighborhood looking for road kill or alley cats or drive to the pet store to pick them up so she could strangle them to death and throw them on her property. On top of constantly getting on a ladder to cut her own phone lines, vandalize her garden, unscrew her porch lights, break her basement windows, etc. for years and years, these are all very time consuming things. If the police couldn't catch her, a neighbor, a friend, or a family member should have. But nothing.

This is why I have never been able to pick a side in this case. Not a single thing could ever be conclusively proven to 100% support stalking vs. faking, murder vs. suicide.

[dynoguy88]

Here's another short excerpt from the book that makes me wonder, if she was faking everything, how she pulled it off...

Tom and Agnes Woodcock were staying at Cindy’s rented duplex on Blundell Road in Richmond the night of April 2, 1986, when the burglar alarm sounded at 2:52 a.m.

Agnes remembers that she, Tom, and Cindy were playing cards in the living room at the time – they often played until 3:00 in the morning on weekends because Cindy had trouble sleeping. “She was sitting right at the table with us when the alarm went off,” Agnes recalled. “She had never left the room.” When they checked the house, they found the glass window of the rear basement door had been completely removed.

Fearing for their friend’s life, the Woodcocks stayed with their Cindy every night beginning April 7.

There are other incidents mentioned in the book that also intrigued me like Police Officer Pat McBride answering the phone once at Cindy's house to hear a threatening call while Cindy was sitting at the kitchen table with him, another similar incident happening to Ozzie Kaban, and a time where Cindy's neighbor once went outside at around 10:00 at night and surprised a man in his backyard who was staring at Cindy's house. When the neighbor asked, "Who are you?" the man took off running, literally breaking the fence gate on his way out.

Again just little factoids that don't conclusively prove anything but still make me wonder.