Did ANY of the following ever actually happen?

[Cori aka ChrisSCrush]

What about the other boy in Kurt Sova's area who died mysteriously and both were missing a right shoe which never turned up?

[amandab1234]

Originally Posted by wiseguy182

PM me your address and I will send you Scott Hill and the update so you can see how much a ********* he is.

I'd like to see this segment since Ive never seen it. I found some UM episodes (almost 20+ hours worth) on the site that shall not be mentioned but that case isnt on there...

[Hambone2421]

Originally Posted by Corkys-Place

I personally think UM made the entire Kurt Sova story to be far more sinister than what it actually was. A kid drinks far too much booze at a party and dies of alcoholic poisoning. Loser friends freak out and cover up his body.

I agree. UM had a tendency to do this kind of thing. I also think this could have been the case with Keith Warren. He drinks too much or has some sort of adverse reaction to drugs and dies. Then, his friends or people he was with make it look like a suicide.

[dynoguy88]

In regards to the Satanic Cult issue, it was never proven but it's always been the only lead in the murders of Shane Stewart and Sally McNelly because...

- They had a nasty falling out when they decided to leave the cult because of criminal activity the cult was involved in. Criminal activity that was serious enough for Shane and Sally to call the police.

- Sally's phone call to her friend Helen saying she was afraid the cult members were going to try to kill her. Sure enough, in a matter of three weeks, she was dead.

[justins5256]

Originally Posted by SheRaaa

So we all know that UM often tried to play-up the more "mysterious" or "sinister" side of a mystery, when there was frequently a different explanation. Out of all the cases profiled on UM, were any of the following actually proven to have happened?

-genuine satanic cult involvement in a crime?

-a missing person who actually ran away to start a new life?

-government conspiracy/coverup of either a crime or some unexplained phenomenon?

-a missing person who really did "run off with another man/woman" as per their guilty-looking spouse?

The only one I can think of offhand is Gail Delano, who was thought to be missing but really did disappear voluntarily....but it was to (unfortunately) commit suicide rather than "start a new life."

I'll have to think some more about this. Honestly, my kneejerk reactions/responses have already been mentioned - Alex Cooper and Scott Hill.

What I find interesting about these two guys is the seemingly "bad job" they did at disappearing. There were tons of verifiable, credible sightings (as opposed to some random truck driver who "thinks" they gave them a ride) and discernible patterns they left in the wake of their disappearances.

Contrast that to some other "missing" folks on UM whose cases were never solved and who seemingly left no trace at all when they vanished. It makes the "new life" theories look weak, to say the least.

[LilMissKryssy]

Originally Posted by Corkys-Place

I personally think UM made the entire Kurt Sova story to be far more sinister than what it actually was. A kid drinks far too much booze at a party and dies of alcoholic poisoning. Loser friends freak out and cover up his body.

The problem with that is the autopsy came back with a minimal level of alcohol in his system. If you die of a drug or alcohol overdose, at the moment of death all metabolic functions cease so whatever level of alcohol or drugs you have at the moment of death is detectable in your tissues. They do not continue to break down after the moment of death. So, if Kurt did die of a direct result of a drug or alcohol overdose they would have been found in the autopsy. However, that is IF the lab did not screw up. There have been cases where the labs mess up results (its rare but isn't impossible.)

So, unless the lab work was somehow botched, its impossible he died of a direct result from an alcohol or drug overdose. If the autopsy is correct he died only 24-48 hours before being found so he was alive for DAYS after the party Friday night. That doesn't fit with an acute drug or alcohol overdose at a party.

The case is strange on many levels. I don't believe foul play was involved as there was no trauma to the body. I am inclined to believe he became sick or took something that made him sick and ended up dying but due to the autopsy results he did not die of a direct result of an overdose. It is quite the mystery.

Lastly, I do believe the medical examiner missed something. It is pretty rare no cause of death can be found. Something wasn't detected or accounted for. So, it is possible the lab work wasn't correct then an OD would be possible but again, the lab work that was done then showed it didn't kill him.

[justins5256]

Originally Posted by LilMissKryssy

The case is strange on many levels. I don't believe foul play was involved as there was no trauma to the body. I am inclined to believe he became sick or took something that made him sick and ended up dying but due to the autopsy results he did not die of a direct result of an overdose. It is quite the mystery.

While my gut tells me that there was no foul play and that Kurt died of an overdose or reaction to some kind of drug and those with him panicked and disposed of his body, I've never been able to reconcile one thing along those lines...the Crazy from Detroit.

The guy said that Kurt's body would be found and that no one would know how he died.

Granted, logic would dictate the guy was just some crackpot. However, it bothers me that his comment was shown to be accurate according to the autopsy findings, or lack thereof.

[Thiussat]

Originally Posted by justins5256

While my gut tells me that there was no foul play and that Kurt died of an overdose or reaction to some kind of drug and those with him panicked and disposed of his body, I've never been able to reconcile one thing along those lines...the Crazy from Detroit.

The guy said that Kurt's body would be found and that no one would know how he died.

Granted, logic would dictate the guy was just some crackpot. However, it bothers me that his comment was shown to be accurate according to the autopsy findings, or lack thereof.

He was probably just a local kid who was either at the party or knew someone who was. He probably heard rumors about Kurt's body being dumped.

I think it's obvious Kurt died by accident. That Susan woman who rented the apartment where the party was held contacted Kurt's mother out of what appears to be guilt, but never could quite seem to muster the courage just to come clean. (She is the one who made up a story about someone sleeping in her basement. I took this as her trying to tip off the mother).

However, if it is true that Kurt was sleeping in the basement or was sick for several days, it makes one wonder why she couldn't just call an ambulance and get him medical help. I mean what is there to hide if it really was an accident?

The only thing that makes sense is Kurt died rather suddenly and it was too late to call for help, so they panicked and dumped his body. Or perhaps he really was killed by some rowdy dudes at the party, but that seems unlikely based on the autopsy results (no trauma at all).

[wiseguy182]

Originally Posted by Thiussat

He was probably just a local kid who was either at the party or knew someone who was. He probably heard rumors about Kurt's body being dumped.

But the police apparently said he was from Detroit. Additionally, he knew facts about the case that a random person would not know.

Originally Posted by Thiussat

I think it's obvious Kurt died by accident.

Considering no cause of death was ever determined, it's impossible to know.

Originally Posted by Thiussat

That Susan woman who rented the apartment where the party was held contacted Kurt's mother out of what appears to be guilt, but never could quite seem to muster the courage just to come clean. (She is the one who made up a story about someone sleeping in her basement. I took this as her trying to tip off the mother).

But Mr. Sova went to the apartment and found evidence that someone had been sleeping in a cot downstairs in the basement.

Originally Posted by Thiussat

However, if it is true that Kurt was sleeping in the basement or was sick for several days, it makes one wonder why she couldn't just call an ambulance and get him medical help. I mean what is there to hide if it really was an accident?

Underage drinking and the penalties associated with.

Originally Posted by Thiussat

The only thing that makes sense is Kurt died rather suddenly and it was too late to call for help, so they panicked and dumped his body. Or perhaps he really was killed by some rowdy dudes at the party, but that seems unlikely based on the autopsy results (no trauma at all).

I need to rewatch the segment, so I'll have more on that later.

[wiseguy182]

Originally Posted by LilMissKryssy

The problem with that is the autopsy came back with a minimal level of alcohol in his system. If you die of a drug or alcohol overdose, at the moment of death all metabolic functions cease so whatever level of alcohol or drugs you have at the moment of death is detectable in your tissues. They do not continue to break down after the moment of death. So, if Kurt did die of a direct result of a drug or alcohol overdose they would have been found in the autopsy. However, that is IF the lab did not screw up. There have been cases where the labs mess up results (its rare but isn't impossible.)

So, unless the lab work was somehow botched, its impossible he died of a direct result from an alcohol or drug overdose. If the autopsy is correct he died only 24-48 hours before being found so he was alive for DAYS after the party Friday night. That doesn't fit with an acute drug or alcohol overdose at a party.

The case is strange on many levels. I don't believe foul play was involved as there was no trauma to the body. I am inclined to believe he became sick or took something that made him sick and ended up dying but due to the autopsy results he did not die of a direct result of an overdose. It is quite the mystery.

Lastly, I do believe the medical examiner missed something. It is pretty rare no cause of death can be found. Something wasn't detected or accounted for. So, it is possible the lab work wasn't correct then an OD would be possible but again, the lab work that was done then showed it didn't kill him.

Excellent post.

The main consensus on the boards for some time regarding this case was that Kurt drank too much, passed out and the people at the party carried his body out to the ravine. However, I've always had several problems with that.

The main thing that gets me is this "Crazy from Detroit." Not only did he know WHEN Kurt's body would be found, but also knew no cause of death would be determined. And on top of that, and this never gets mentioned, but he *threatened* the record store lady. I just can't fathom why the police let this guy go after a little light questioning. Because I'm pretty sure threatening someone's life usually leads to at least an arrest. I believe he definitely knows something. There's no doubt the police bungled this case severely.

And then there's Eugene Kvet. This case has so many similarities to Kurt's death that they are impossible to ignore. They were both found very close to each other, both had been missing for some time, both had been found without their right shoe, etc. But I think it's safe to say Eugene didn't go out and drink at a party, so that makes the whole angle with Kurt dying of an alcohol overdose even harder to believe. Now I don't know if this was the work of some child molester with a foot fetish or what, but I think there was some creep operating in Newberg Heights at this time.

And then there's the eyewitness account of someone seeing Kurt on Monday morning, alive and healthy. I don't normally put much stock into eyewitness accounts, but considering a) this person knew Kurt, and b) that Kurt was apparently still alive at this point, I think there is a very real possibility this person did see Kurt.

Taking all these things into account, along with what you mentioned, I think it puts a very large hole in the "Kurt got drunk and died" theory.

[LilMissKryssy]

Originally Posted by wiseguy182

Excellent post.

The main consensus on the boards for some time regarding this case was that Kurt drank too much, passed out and the people at the party carried his body out to the ravine. However, I've always had several problems with that.

The main thing that gets me is this "Crazy from Detroit." Not only did he know WHEN Kurt's body would be found, but also knew no cause of death would be determined. And on top of that, and this never gets mentioned, but he *threatened* the record store lady. I just can't fathom why the police let this guy go after a little light questioning. Because I'm pretty sure threatening someone's life usually leads to at least an arrest. I believe he definitely knows something. There's no doubt the police bungled this case severely.

And then there's Eugene Kvet. This case has so many similarities to Kurt's death that they are impossible to ignore. They were both found very close to each other, both had been missing for some time, both had been found without their right shoe, etc. But I think it's safe to say Eugene didn't go out and drink at a party, so that makes the whole angle with Kurt dying of an alcohol overdose even harder to believe. Now I don't know if this was the work of some child molester with a foot fetish or what, but I think there was some creep operating in Newberg Heights at this time.

And then there's the eyewitness account of someone seeing Kurt on Monday morning, alive and healthy. I don't normally put much stock into eyewitness accounts, but considering a) this person knew Kurt, and b) that Kurt was apparently still alive at this point, I think there is a very real possibility this person did see Kurt.

Taking all these things into account, along with what you mentioned, I think it puts a very large hole in the "Kurt got drunk and died" theory.

Thanks Wiseguy.

Yeah, it does create a huge hole. You can't die as a result of an overdose (alcohol, drugs or both) and not have it show up in your tissues. Again, I'm not confident the coroner's office didn't screw up this autopsy because I find it extremely odd no cause of death could be found at all.

Depends on the jurisdiction but since a coroner is an elected official, they could have absolutely no MD degree or forensic experience. I watched a documentary on this a few years back and its actually scary just how unqualified a coroner could be (dependent upon the state or jurisdiction). In the last few years they are slowly trying to change this but believe me there are a few jurisdictions where it leaves you scratching your head as to how this person is even qualified to be coroner (this is more prevalent in small or more rural areas)

Anyways, my point is who knows how good or competent that coroner was. If anyone has ever watched Dr. G Medical examiner or watched interviews with her, I highly doubt a great ME like herself would not be able to find the actual cause of death. Even if he died of natural causes like an undiagnosed medical problem that can definitely be determined especially because he had only been deceased for 24-48 hours so it wasn't like the remains were skeletonized where a cause of death can be much harder if not sometimes impossible. That is why I don't rule out a possible OD as I am not confident in the autopsy results at all. However, based on their results he could not have died of one.

Lastly, there was a minimal amount of alcohol found in his system. Alcohol can be detected in your system about 30 hours after your last drink. So, according to this autopsy,the earliest he could have died would have been Monday morning. Therefore, his last drink was not on Friday night but on Saturday night or later. If he died 24 hours prior to being found, his last drink would have been Sunday night or later. Again, it was a minimal amount so IF this lab work is correct, he did not die of an overdose. However, it does show he was alive well after Friday. It also demonstrates that he probably did not become seriously ill at the party Friday night (why would he have a few drinks in the days following if he was seriously ill on Friday?)

Again, since there was only was a minimal amount of alcohol in his system at the time of death, he didn't die of an OD and in the hours prior to his death wasn't drinking heavily. I tend to think he died Tuesday because of the call from the duplex as well as the body being easily visible where it was found. I think it was there less then a day. If that's true then his last drink was Sunday night or later.

[dynoguy88]

I probably brought this up already in the 'Biggest WTF moments' thread but Susan's phone call to the Sovas in the middle of the night to tell them somebody might be sleeping in the cot in the basement and maybe it's Kurt...that's WTF times a million.

Dorothy's response on the phone was, "Why should I believe you after you've lied to me so many times?".

That's an understandable question. But I wish she had also said over the phone, "You think my son might be in your basement? O.K. I'll stay on the line while YOU go to YOUR basement and check. If someone is down there, describe him to me (clothes, hair, age) and if it sounds like Kurt, I'll be right over."

Seems to me Susan wanted to give the Sovas the impression that she cared (somewhat) but in reality that phone call was just to get one of them over to the house so they would know Kurt wasn't in the house and they wouldn't think that he had actually died there.

[LilMissKryssy]

Originally Posted by dynoguy88

I probably brought this up already in the 'Biggest WTF moments' thread but Susan's phone call to the Sovas in the middle of the night to tell them somebody might be sleeping in the cot in the basement and maybe it's Kurt...that's WTF times a million.

Dorothy's response on the phone was, "Why should I believe you after you've lied to me so many times?".

That's an understandable question. But I wish she had also said over the phone, "You think my son might be in your basement? O.K. I'll stay on the line while YOU go to YOUR basement and check. If someone is down there, describe him to me (clothes, hair, age) and if it sounds like Kurt, I'll be right over."

Seems to me Susan wanted to give the Sovas the impression that she cared (somewhat) but in reality that phone call was just to get one of them over to the house so they would know Kurt wasn't in the house and they wouldn't think that he had actually died there.

The police REALLY dropped the ball in the investigation.

*You have a dead 17 year old otherwise healthy male who was missing for 5 days prior to his death.
*You know he was transported and dumped in the ravine.
*You have an autopsy that says he has only been dead for 24-48 hours. So that leaves 3-4 days where he was missing under odd circumstances.
*The coroner tells you according to their lab work he did not die of an overdose.
*You have Susan giving his parents inconsistent statements during the 3-4 days he's missing and according to the autopsy wasn't even dead yet.
*You have the bizarre call Susan made to the Sova's just before his body was found dumped in the ravine.
*Susan thinks someone is in her basement? Um, I'd definitely know if someone was in my basement. Secondly, if Kurt was unconscious and couldn't identify himself to Susan, why not just call 911 and say "There's an unresponsive person in my basement!". Third, how do you not know who is in your own place!?. The PD should've taken her in for some pretty intense interrogation about her story. This never happened. The focus should have been Susan. She knew Kurt's fate, whether was just a witness or not, she knew what happened. Maybe even offer her immunity from being prosecuted for whatever (even if just providing alcohol/drugs to Kurt). It seems like she had some conscience so to me that would've been the way to go.
*Even if this was an accidental death (I have nothing to say it was a murder), this wasn't investigated properly to determine what the hell happened and why.

His mother also did not seem naïve. She knew her son had probably been drinking if everyone else was. I highly doubt Kurt would voluntarily not return home in the 3-4 days he was alive but missing. Not even to change his clothes? His mother was frantically looking for him and had filed a police report. If Kurt frequently took off for days without his mother knowing where he was, why would she be in such a panic this time? It appears this was not normal for Kurt whether he occasionally drank or not. Those 3-4 days are incredibly bizarre.

This isn't an "obvious" case by any means. His death could've been accidental but according to their own lab reports it wasn't an overdose. It wasn't thoroughly investigated to give his parents closure and an idea of what happened to him in those days he was alive and missing.

[Steve W.]

I've mentioned this before, but I think Kurt was unconscious for 2 or 3 days before he died, so that would explain his lower BAC when the autopsy was done.

We know that he drank Everclear the day of the duplex party (either earlier in the day when he was skipping school, or at the party itself), so it's likely he either got sick from it or passed out and fell unconscious. We've mentioned before how we think he could have become unconscious instead of only being violently ill. He might have had an unusual undetected medical condition (that actually exists) where a person cannot extract alcohol (or large amounts) from their system once consuming it OR that someone might have lent him a Tylenol tablet or something of that nature shortly after he became violently ill from drinking and that taking a tablet like that while still under the influence can cause an adverse reaction and possible make someone pass out or fall unconscious.


As far as the question above regarding Eugene Kvet, he was found in a different area of that ravine: it is believed that he either accidentally fell off of a steep cliff in the area he was found or that he might have been pushed (possibly by members of a Newburgh Heights or greater Cleveland area gang at that time).

I don't think the two cases are related. Kurt's shoe was probably "missing" because the duplex people kept moving his body around to hide it from his parents on the occasions when they stopped by or it was lost when the two guys decided to move his body to the ravine area after all of that time. Eugene's shoe might have floated away in the stream (he was found in an area of the ravine that had a stream; Kurt wasn't) or the super crappy Newburgh Heights PD (at that time) just didn't see it.

[LilMissKryssy]

Originally Posted by Steve W.

I've mentioned this before, but I think Kurt was unconscious for 2 or 3 days before he died, so that would explain his lower BAC when the autopsy was done.

We know that he drank Everclear the day of the duplex party (either earlier in the day when he was skipping school, or at the party itself), so it's likely he either got sick from it or passed out and fell unconscious. We've mentioned before how we think he could have become unconscious instead of only being violently ill. He might have had an unusual undetected medical condition (that actually exists) where a person cannot extract alcohol (or large amounts) from their system once consuming it OR that someone might have lent him a Tylenol tablet or something of that nature shortly after he became violently ill from drinking and that taking a tablet like that while still under the influence can cause an adverse reaction and possible make someone pass out or fall unconscious.


As far as the question above regarding Eugene Kvet, he was found in a different area of that ravine: it is believed that he either accidentally fell off of a steep cliff in the area he was found or that he might have been pushed (possibly by members of a Newburgh Heights or greater Cleveland area gang at that time).

I don't think the two cases are related. Kurt's shoe was probably "missing" because the duplex people kept moving his body around to hide it from his parents on the occasions when they stopped by or it was lost when the two guys decided to move his body to the ravine area after all of that time. Eugene's shoe might have floated away in the stream (he was found in an area of the ravine that had a stream; Kurt wasn't) or the super crappy Newburgh Heights PD (at that time) just didn't see it.

All great points. However, I still dont get a cause of death. If you die directly from alcohol poisoning you dont die days later. If he partied on Friday and died Monday or Tuesday that cant be from alcohol poisoning related to Friday night. I myself have a huge sensitivity to alcohol ( it didn't stop me in my early 20s from partying a lot) and what your referring to is that certain people cant process alcohol at the normal rate so the toxin builds more quickly in these individuals. However, in either case it depresses the central nervous system as with any other overdose of a depressant that effects that central nervous system, after you slip into unconsciousness your breathing would become less and less followed by death.

The only way someone would remain in a coma state directly from alcohol poisoning would be if they suffered brain damage due to not breathing but rapid medical intervention came and they were resuscitated but suffered lack of oxygen to the brain for several minutes. This causes the brain to swell and would cause a coma state for days, months or forever. Such as in the case with Bobbi Kristina Houston (lack of oxygen but resuscitated). Again, this is only if medical intervention arrived which it didn't.

There was no vomit found in his lungs and unlike Jack Davis he had not suffered head trauma (a drunken fall or fight). Alcohol alone can not keep you unconscious but alive and breathing on your own for 3-4 days. Head trauma relating to a drunken fall or brawl could but he had no signs of any injury. Therefore he wasn't "knocked" out by a fall or a hit for several days (again solely going on the autopsy).

If he had an allergic reaction to even a bee sting that would be found in a properly performed autopsy.

I not convinced necessarily that the deaths are connected or even that anything sinister caused Kurt's death but going by the autopsy report it is impossible that an acute overdose caused his death. You can not die 3-4 days later from an acute overdose of alcohol or drugs. Yes, you can be resuscitated from lack of oxygen and be pronounced brain dead later in the hospital or die later from head trauma but not solely from an acute overdose.