Qualities for an American???

[Jinny Girl]

Yeah well america is the best because were a superpower so get over it people. And yeah we pretty much do win every war were in. I know nothing about history but I know we rock. And canada dont coutn I mean please.. they dont even have an army. They thought the WTC attacks were funny... Yes a canadian did tell me that,

[Kitt]

Pride in America and the courtesy to heed what others say should go hand in hand. Americans will be better served if we're willing to listen.

From the Chicago Tribune:
World Forum: U.S. self-centered

["They" weren't the demonstrators outside the World Economic Forum but the official participants inside, a global A-list of business executives, government officials, princes, presidents, prelates and professors from 106 countries.

A motiff throughout the meeting was critisizm of globilazation and the self-centered role that the United States plays. American businesses and political leaders took heat for a long list of percieved sins: growing inequality between rich and poor, unilateralist policies in Washington, an overreliance on force in the war against terrorism, and inattention to the global environment and health care.

French Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine complained of U.S. "indifference" toward it's allies.

"We find it very difficult to penetrate the minds of American leaders, the previous admistration as well as this one," agreed Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad. "There's a feeling in Washington that anything that is not American cannot be right."

Other delegates said that President Bush proved Veldrines point with his State of the Union speech identifying an "axis of evil" in the world without asking his allies what they thought about this escalation in Anti-terrorist rhetoric.]

[Max Whittaker]

Originally posted by kittflynn
Pride in America and the courtesy to heed what others say should go hand in hand. Americans will be better served if we're willing to listen.

From the Chicago Tribune:
World Forum: U.S. self-centered

["They" weren't the demonstrators outside the World Economic Forum but the official participants inside, a global A-list of business executives, government officials, princes, presidents, prelates and professors from 106 countries.

A motiff throughout the meeting was critisizm of globilazation and the self-centered role that the United States plays. American businesses and political leaders took heat for a long list of percieved sins: growing inequality between rich and poor, unilateralist policies in Washington, an overreliance on force in the war against terrorism, and inattention to the global environment and health care.

French Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine complained of U.S. "indifference" toward it's allies.

"We find it very difficult to penetrate the minds of American leaders, the previous admistration as well as this one," agreed Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad. "There's a feeling in Washington that anything that is not American cannot be right."

Other delegates said that President Bush proved Veldrines point with his State of the Union speech identifying an "axis of evil" in the world without asking his allies what they thought about this escalation in Anti-terrorist rhetoric.]

That's a fact.

[Jimbo]

In my previous post, I stated that the British and the Canadians are the greatest friends this nation has ever had.

Since Kittflynn and Max Whittaker seem to be in total agreement with the socialist drivel published the Chicago Tribune, I'd like to offer for their consideration another editorial about this country.

What follows below is an editorial by Canadian television commentator Gordon Sinclair. Mr. Sinclair spoke these words in 1973. Today, nearly 30 years later, they are just as relevant today. The full text of his message was recorded in the Congressional Record:


This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas 10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the American who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.

[Kitt]

Jimbo:
This is what I can't understand in a discussion: Gordon Sinclair spoke on behalf of America during the turmoil of the Vietnam war, a period in American history that does not parallel with the events taking place today. During that time the American public forgot to even honor their own soldiers in battle. Shameful! Soldiers that, by the way, would not have been or would not have died in battle but for the decisions of, not the generals, but those in government--McNamara, Johnson. My own brother was one of those in battle. He has payed a huge price for his participation as have many Vietnam vets. I don't take issue with what Gordon Sinclair said, but it doesn't have anything to do with the article I posted, and the article has nothing to do with your buzzword--"socialist". If you want to listen and discuss we can do that. If you just want to claim victory in some imaginary battle of your own concoction, you're on your own.

[Mossopp]

Originally posted by Jimbo

You are the one who needs to get their facts straight, Mossopp! So you think America was not responsible for any heroics whatsoever, do you....?

The war began in 1939. America didn't get involved untill 1941 - two years later ! And the only reason you got involved was cos you got your asses kicked at Pearl Harbour!
Spare me your "my nation is so great" speeches. Two of my great, great uncles fought in the American Civil War in 1860 so that you could have your 'freedom'!!!

This is the greatest country that God has ever put on the face of this Earth, and I don't give a damn if some people out there don't like me saying it!!!!! God Bless America!

You opinion that you are "God's Greatest Country" just reeks of self-important bullsh#t. Your country is full of social problems - drugs, crime, poverty, homelessness - just like every other country on this planet, and it's on a larger scale! You're a fool if you're able to convince yourself otherwise!

[Max Whittaker]

America was reluctant to enter WWII because of it's experience in WWI. We didn't want to fight. And can you blame us? When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, We HAD to get into it. I don't see your point Mossopp. How should that define a nation?



I don't see what is wrong with being proud of your country or even taking it to far. Atleast we don't hate it with a passion! Love for your country is a good sign.


America is not perfect. I never said it was! But it doesn't have to be perfect to be a great land.





Of course, your entitled to your opinion about us. However, perhaps you should hold off true judgement until you actually have lived here for an extended period of time.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Mossopp


The war began in 1939. America didn't get involved untill 1941 - two years later ! And the only reason you got involved was cos you got your asses kicked at Pearl Harbour!
Spare me your "my nation is so great" speeches. Two of my great, great uncles fought in the American Civil War in 1860 so that you could have your 'freedom'!!!

You opinion that you are "God's Greatest Country" just reeks of self-important bullsh#t. Your country is full of social problems - drugs, crime, poverty, homelessness - just like every other country on this planet, and it's on a larger scale! You're a fool if you're able to convince yourself otherwise!

In one of your earlier posts, you made some ridiculous statements such as "America was NOT responsible for any heroics in the Second World War" and said that we "only stepped in at the very last minute".

How did I respond to you? I didn't make derogatory remarks about your country (and haven't made any such remarks about any country on this thread). I didn't call you names. I responded instead with facts, figures, dates, places, etc.

I then invited you to refute what I said. Instead of offering any kind of intelligent rebuttal, you responded with name calling and profanity. That's so typical of someone like you. You don't have the facts on your side, so you resort to the kind of garbage found above, because it's the only weapon you have. Now go ahead - call me a few more names. Knock yourself out.

[Bootsy Whoosh]

I was gonna stay out of this, but I do feel that I have to say that it is completely unfair to claim that America was not responsible for any heroics in WWII. Certainly, many nations were responsible for heroics in WWII, and no one claimed that America was the only nation that was. To say that we weren't responsible for any at all is insulting. We may have stayed out 2 years but we were in for over 3.

It is shameful that we waited so late to get involved, especially since there is evidence our government knew about the atrocities Hitler was responsible for. However, you must keep in mind that just because our government knew about it does not mean the public knew about it. You cannot judge the entire country based on a 4 year time period of arguably irresponsible government.

However, I do not like it when people blindly state than America is the best nation in the world while totally ignoring all our problems. America does have many problems, and ignoring them will only make them worse.

However, I don't think there is a problem with liking your country and having faith that it will change for the better, even in face of all the problems we have.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by kittflynn
Jimbo:
If you want to listen and discuss we can do that. If you just want to claim victory in some imaginary battle of your own concoction, you're on your own.

Contrary to your sarcastic remark above, I am not trying "to claim victory in some imaginary battle of my own concoction".

The person who started this thread merely asked for opinions regarding "Qualities for an American". Some people on this site immediately used it as a chance to focus on the neagtive. To hear them tell it, citizens of other nations are entitled to take pride in their country, but if we do it, we're "arrogant", "egotistical", "self-centered", etc. Too many people in this country seem to welcome opportunies to engage in bashing the United States.

I decided instead to present a positive point of view, and point out some of the good we've done in the world. Because I choose to focus on the positive, you seem to have a real problem with that. You seem to be the one who is bound and determined to have the last word on this.

I'm not trying to claim for one minute that we are perfect - we're not. We've had many dark moments in our history, and have done things that no one should be proud of. But you know what? We've never run away from those dark moments. Instead, we've confronted them, and have done our best to correct past injustices.

This may surprise you, but I happen to agree with your comments about the War in Viet Nam. I am old enough to remember the Viet Nam era, and I agree that the way your brother and others in the military were treated was shameful. I also concur that the conduct of the war should have been left in the hands of the Generals, and not the politicians.

And yes, I will admit, my "socialist" comment was over the line. I owe you and Max Whittaker an apology for that one.

I do not agree, however, with your contention that the Gordon Sinclair editorial has no relevance to the Chicago Tribune article that you posted. The participants in the World Economic Forum are the same type of people that Sinclair spoke about in 1973 - they welcome our aid and our money with open arms, then turn around and put us down at the first opportunity.

They say we haven't done enough for the global environment and health care. Who's done more?

They criticize us for "an overreliance on force in the war against terrorism". Over 3000 people (including citizens from dozens of other nations) were killed on American soil on Sept. 11th. How should we have responded?

They take exception to President Bush for "identifying an axis of evil without asking his allies what they thought about this escalation in Anti-terrorist rhetoric".

Here's a news flash for the rest of the world: We don't need to ask anyone's permission to defend our country! As President Bush said, you're either with us, or you're with the terrorists.

There's one final thing that puzzles me: In your last post, I noticed your "civility" logo at the top of your narrative. If you're so concerned about civility, then why have you said nothing about the vicious, vile, and hateful remarks about our country posted by Mossopp? You are so quick to take me to task, but you remain silent about the bile that he is spewing forth. Why is that?

[Kitt]

My remark wasn't sarcastic, it was an honest reply to your prior comeback.To begn your next post by calling me sarcastic detracts from your apology later on. You're assuming that I'm surprised that you agree about my Vietnam stance. If you wouldn't make baseless assumptions you'd be discussing with me rather than arguing with me.

Your read of the ChicagoTribune article is overstated. I doubt that Gorcon Sinclair would go along with America right or wrong. The entire civilized world is asking America to listen.That isn't unreasonable. For our own good and the good of the world we should listen better.

To what Mossopp said: unfotunate underassessment! Americans fought and died in world war two along with the allies! My twenty-twenty hindsight, I wish we would have come in sooner. But that's another matter.

So I won't be misunderstood, I decided to add that I don't share Mossopp's opinions of not only America but also of you. You and I have a different idea of what it means to be patriotic or proud of ones country but I don't have any venom about it. I'm not qualified to judge what it's like to take part in war and I'm put off when someone underrates just what a hardship and extreme experience, up close and personal, that war must be.

[Lynn]

Originally posted by Jimbo


The person who started this thread merely asked for opinions regarding "Qualities for an American". Some people on this site immediately used it as a chance to focus on the neagtive. To hear them tell it, citizens of other nations are entitled to take pride in their country, but if we do it, we're "arrogant", "egotistical", "self-centered", etc. Too many people in this country seem to welcome opportunies to engage in bashing the United States.

I don't think there is anything wrong with taking pride in your country and its accomplishments. I never said there was anything wrong with that. My only point was that to claim we "are the greatest country on the face of the earth" is really quite conceited and obnoxious. In no way am I bashing this country, I just don't think we should go around making such claims. There are better ways of expressing pride in your country.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Lynn


I don't think there is anything wrong with taking pride in your country and its accomplishments. I never said there was anything wrong with that. My only point was that to claim we "are the greatest country on the face of the earth" is really quite conceited and obnoxious. In no way am I bashing this country, I just don't think we should go around making such claims. There are better ways of expressing pride in your country.

Lynn:

I've never gotten the impression in any of your posts that you were bashing this country. When I previously talked about people in America who seem to welcome opportunies to focus on the negative aspects of this country, I was speaking in general terms, and not about any specific individual - and certainly not about you. Sure I have some strong opinons (no kidding!) on this subject, and you and I may see things differently on some points - and that's okay. The fact is, we are in agreement on more things than not. At least you are conducting yourself in a civil and concilatory manner. All I've tried to say is there's nothing wrong with feeling that you're country is "the greatest country in the world" - whatever country that might be. People in other lands have every right to make that assertion about their nation, and we have the right to feel that way about ours.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by kittflynn
My remark wasn't sarcastic, it was an honest reply to your prior comeback.To begn your next post by calling me sarcastic detracts from your apology later on. You're assuming that I'm surprised that you agree about my Vietnam stance. If you wouldn't make baseless assumptions you'd be discussing with me rather than arguing with me.

You are a real piece of work, lady!

If you don't think your previous remark was sarcastic, then you have some issues with denial that you need to deal with.

In my last post, I acknowledged that one of my previous comments was over the line, and offered an apology. How did you react? By finding a way to cast that in a negative light - you couldn't just gracefully accept my apology, and let it be. I guess that was just too much for me to expect from the likes of you.

I don't mind admitting when I am wrong - but if you think I'm going to kiss your butt over this, think again, babe.

When I tried to find some common ground with you, specifically on the issue of Viet Nam, you couldn't deal with that, either - you just had to find some way to turn that into an adversarial situation as well.

You also said "I doubt that Gorcon Sinclair would go along with America right or wrong". When did I ever say anything about "America right or wrong"? Look at my last post and you'll see that I specifically said quite the opposite - and you have the gall to accuse me of making baseless assumptions about you!

Go ahead and continue to post away. I won't be responding again. I've wasted enough time with you and that ignorant, inflexible, "my-way-or-the-highway" attitude of yours.

One final piece of advice: Stay indoors on rainy days. You've got your nose so far up in the air, if you ever walk out into the rain, you're going to drown!

[Bootsy Whoosh]

Not that it's really any of my business, but for everyone's information, kittflynn is a man, and Mossop is a woman. Just thought I'd point it out for some reason.