This month marks the third anniversary of the murder of Mike Emert, a Seattle real estate agent. His mysterious murder, which took place on January 4, 2001, was featured on Unsolved Mysteries later that year. At the time of his death, he was said to have had an appointment with a man who walked with a cane. This led to a theory that the man in question may have been the killer, and that the cane might have been used as a ruse (and possibly as a murder weapon). Just moments ago, I discovered a recent article on the case. Click on to the link below for more on the article about this intriguing case.

Let's hope that Mike Emert's family will one day have answers to this unsolved case.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/157331_oldmurder20.html

This is another case that gets little exposure to have been so tragic.. funny Unsolved Mysteries does not show this story that much in fact I have only seen it twice. Now this is a murder that should have been on the Bizarre Murders set!!! I wish there was a renewed interest in the case but the bad part is we don't even have a suspect or a general idea of who killed the man or a motive for that matter!!! this case really gets my juices going!!!!

This is another case that gets little exposure

True indeed. That's why I am thankful that we've had shows like this. UM was the type of show that would air important cases, especially when other media outlets have been unwilling or unable to do so. Therefore, it was as though people had nowhere to turn to but UM (or other shows of its ilk). And there have been countless times where the show appeared to be the last hope. If it had not been for UM, numerous cases would still have been unresolved today.

When it came to unresolved cases, UM was an alternative to most other media outlets. UM understood (as does America's Most Wanted) the importance of giving unsolved criminal cases national exposure in the hopes that such exposure will result in resolutions. For that reason, I consider UM and AMW to be superior when it comes to pro-law enforcement values.

This is another case that gets little exposure to have been so tragic.. funny Unsolved Mysteries does not show this story that much in fact I have only seen it twice. Now this is a murder that should have been on the Bizarre Murders set!!! I wish there was a renewed interest in the case but the bad part is we don't even have a suspect or a general idea of who killed the man or a motive for that matter!!! this case really gets my juices going!!!!


I always wondered if this case might be connected to someone like the Zodiac killer (who would now be in his 60's). The killer was sharp as a tack, experienced, may have used a hometooled weapon and was from Northern California. It's a stretch to be sure but something just seems so weird about Emert's death.

I was totally unfamiliar with this case. I'm sure I've never seen the segment. Indeed bizarre. There doesn't even seem to be an obvious motive. Based on the circumstances, it seems like either an intentional hit or a very thorough Zodiac-like killer who plans a type of attack and then the victim is basically random, merely someone who fits the place and scenario once the killer is ready to execute his plan.

The UM case this reminds me of was the businessman who was murdered in an elevator after making an appointment at a very strange early morning hour. I'm sure Kane or crystaldawn or someone else here will remember the name and the case. I'm not implying it's the same perpetrator but the method is extremely reminiscent. In that case I believe a first name and minor detail was also known, perhaps scratched on a business notepad, but nothing else regarding the possible perpetrator. He obviously planned the muder for unknown motive and convinced the businessman to detour from his typical routine.

Without having seen the UM segment of the Emert case, I'm not sure how the cane fits it, especially as a murder weapon. Perhaps the perpetrator tied to feign weakness and no physical threat by using a cane. If he pulled the body to the shower he certainly was not disabled. But something like a cane tends to draw more attention, not less. What percentage of people you pass use a cane? I would be very surprised if this perpetrator actually met Emert in the shopping mall at midday. If he had a cane in a public place that would be too easily remembered. The potential for security cameras is huge. Perhaps he saw Emert drive up and motioned him to the car in the parking lot. Or picked a shopping mall with only one main entrance so he could intercept Emert as he pulled in. Someone who obviously planned a murder thoroughly wouldn't miss the obvious small details. Since he was not viewed as threatening a conventional knife could easily have been concealed in his clothing, probably a suit.

While I did not personally view the segment, the type of crime seems to ring some bells as to another couple of similar killings in the midwest.

Seems to me that the real estate agents had been specifically targeted; in other words, stalked. Still unsolved and motive not known. I do remember that they looked into the real estate agents' clients, but could find no connection. They could not figure out why someone would stalk a real estate agent, set them up for a "kill", carry it out, leave no evidence and move on.

It's almost as if someone thought they had gotten "rooked" by a real estate agent and is now targeting other agents. Maybe he didn't like the fact that the real estate agent gets a commission. Maybe he didn't like the price he had to pay for the house or thought he didn't get enough for his own house.

These cases are probably why some real estate companies now require a driver's license (with photo) before they will agree to show houses.

Yes the attorney's name was David Marifield who was murdered and found in the elevator at his office building. You're right it does have similarities to the Mike Emert case. Another case that was sort of similar in my opinion (although the motive was obviously robbery in this one) was Morris Davis. They found a vacant house, removed the "For Sale" sign in the front yard and then had Morris deliver a pizza to the house and shot and killed him when he got there. All three are sad and senseless crimes.

Yes the attorney's name was David Marifield who was murdered and found in the elevator at his office building. You're right it does have similarities to the Mike Emert case. Another case that was sort of similar in my opinion (although the motive was obviously robbery in this one) was Morris Davis. They found a vacant house, removed the "For Sale" sign in the front yard and then had Morris deliver a pizza to the house and shot and killed him when he got there. All three are sad and senseless crimes.

Mike Emert, David Marifield and Morris Davis' murders all seem to bear signs of an aging serial killer - there are several operating all over the US. What drew me to the Zodiac was an article in the Seattle Union Record (site is now down, maybe permanently) about a person of interest in Emert's murder from the Seattle area.

As far as the cane goes, it has a magical effect on witnesses - it is all they can recall about the subject. Not a bad idea for a killer, especially if they don't normally need a cane.

I find this thread very interesting; especially being from Seattle, knowing the Emert case pretty well and still disturbed that it hasn't been solved (not to mention being related to the victim). I did find it somewhat comforting though, to know that there are still people such as yourselves interested in a case that seems to have dropped off the news here, locally.

Now I'm no expert in this field, but does a 'serial killer' really fit the profile for this case given that Mike was a 6' tall, well built, athletic person. Seems somewhat of a high risk for the serial killer if they were looking for someone random - especially for an aging serial killer.

What I find amazing though, is the lack of evidence found. This person stabbed Mike over 20 times, dragged him to the bathroom, heaved him into the tub and then drove Mike's SUV back to the same parking lot where they met (and I believe they said it was in the Post Office parking lot next to the mall - which is much smaller and more secluded). Also, the crime was supposedly all committed within around 1 hr from the time they were suppose to meet and when the home owner found the body - given that the crime scene is around 20 minutes from that parking lot and the house was only visited 1 other time by the killer (presuming Mike showed the same house to the killer the day before), it doesn't leave a lot of time or room for error. A lot of the facts do point to a profession hit, but there is that one thing missing - Motive.

I appreciate Mr.Clairvoyant's comment about "wish there was a renewed interest in the case" - I wish it myself.

TL

What I find amazing though, is the lack of evidence found. This person stabbed Mike over 20 times, dragged him to the bathroom, heaved him into the tub and then drove Mike's SUV back to the same parking lot where they met (and I believe they said it was in the Post Office parking lot next to the mall - which is much smaller and more secluded).

Thanks for mentioning the post office parking lot as the meeting place. That makes much more sense. As I indicated in my previous post, I haven't seen this segment so I'm at a disadvantage here, but meeting at a busy shopping mall at midday didn't make any sense if you knew you were going to murder the guy.

Thanks for mentioning the post office parking lot as the meeting place. That makes much more sense. As I indicated in my previous post, I haven't seen this segment so I'm at a disadvantage here, but meeting at a busy shopping mall at midday didn't make any sense if you knew you were going to murder the guy.

Meeting at a mall would allow for less interaction/face time than meeting at Mike's office (where a receptionist would be trying to make him comfortable). There is also the matter of stashing his car - which would become invisable in a crowded parking lot.

It seems to me like the ruse of using a cane would be perfect for an older serial killer - he would know the power he'd have to manipulate and how his strength would be underestimated.

Sorry to keep harping on the Zodiac angle but the Zodiac was committed to achieving a high number of victims and admitted to using disguises.

Sorry to keep harping on the Zodiac angle but the Zodiac was committed to achieving a high number of victims and admitted to using disguises.

That's true, but similar to the Son of Sam case and David Berkowitz' recent versions, I dispute the word admitted. That implies truth. Zodiac CLAIMED to use disguises. Specifically after he was nearly caught in the Presidio after murdering cab driver Paul Stine. There was a widely distributed double sketch and I'm convinced they were very accurate. That caused Zodiac to suddenly write a letter saying, "I only look like that when I do my thing."

That's gloried BS. No evidence he was wearing any type of weird garb like at Lake Berryessa. The teenagers in the immediate house got a good look at him from the second story window. Zodiac took quite a bit of time ripping Stine's shirt then trying to clean away fingerprints. Plus the two police officers saw him at close range and may have even spoken to him, which I believe although it was never publicly admitted.

Zodiac stopped the killing spree after that incident. I'd love to wager he looked very much like those sketches and felt extremely fortunate to have escaped.

That's true, but similar to the Son of Sam case and David Berkowitz' recent versions, I dispute the word admitted. That implies truth. Zodiac CLAIMED to use disguises. Specifically after he was nearly caught in the Presidio after murdering cab driver Paul Stine. There was a widely distributed double sketch and I'm convinced they were very accurate. That caused Zodiac to suddenly write a letter saying, "I only look like that when I do my thing."

That's gloried BS. No evidence he was wearing any type of weird garb like at Lake Berryessa. The teenagers in the immediate house got a good look at him from the second story window. Zodiac took quite a bit of time ripping Stine's shirt then trying to clean away fingerprints. Plus the two police officers saw him at close range and may have even spoken to him, which I believe although it was never publicly admitted.

Zodiac stopped the killing spree after that incident. I'd love to wager he looked very much like those sketches and felt extremely fortunate to have escaped.

I think you're right about the sketches - horrible sketches that they are - being too close to home. There are loads of theories about his last victim, Paul Stine - if Zodiac knew him and was killing off a witness.

I have my own set of theories about Z but BACK to Mike Emert: I'm curious about the absolute lack of evidence. I'm sure the killer must have left some biological material behind. Hair in the car, fingerprints, skin cells. He drove Emert's car, for heavens sake! How was the original appointment made? They never offered that information in the segment, did they?

And a cane is such an elaborate choice of weapon. There can't be many places around selling this sort of thing (what I don't know about weapons could fill several libraries) or he could have made it himself.

What always struck me about this case (well, actually everything was weird and baffling really), was when Stack said that they had ruled out the motive of a competitive real estate agent. As I watched this segment, and even the first time, that was my immediate thought; frankly, unless there is something that is in his private life that we just don''t know about, nothing else makes much sense. Two me, there are two possibilities:
1) An angry competitor, or
2) Mike was having a fling/affair with a woman, and someone hired this guy to kill him.

The affair seems unlikely, as it looks like Mike and his wife had a great relationship, although this was from her perspective, and even great relationships can have deviant behavior unfortunately. It could have also been a perceived issue, such as some jealous man thinking that his wife/girlfriend had a thing for Mike. Just because the police didn't find any angle on this doesn't mean it wasn't happening; after all, these things are usually hidden, and I'm assuming that most people involved in affairs wouldn't want to have this revealed.

The competitive agent angle seems the post likely scenario to me. I know that they said the police ruled that out, but how could they really? It sounds like Mike was very well known in Seattle as a successful real estate agent, so the person who did this might not have even known Mike, or been in his agency or circle of co-workers/peers. I just don't know how the police could say that they had ruled out ALL possible real estate industry connections.

Also, it came off on the segment that Mike had recently won an award for his job, was highly regarded, and (not to sound rude or anything), seemed to have no problem displaying images of wealth. I'm thinking about the expensive jewelry he was wearing (including a diamond ring), and driving a Cadillac SUV. Frankly, those cars are the epitome of ostentatious behavior when it comes to money, so I'm just guessing that his money and success were probably no secret.

The random kiill/aging serial killer theory just doesn't make any sense to me. Remember, this killing was planned, as Mike had shown the killer the same house the previous day, and had made sure that he was not seen on both visits. Serial killers, from what I have read, seem to strike at random, and don't target specific people. This had all the offerings of a contract kill, and I can only think of the above two options.

The only other thing I can think of (and it's a long shot), is that this was some sort of an extortion plan, where the killer confronted Mike with demands for money or something, and then the situation escalated Mike was murdered (that might explain the 19 stab wounds, which show rage imo).

Any other ideas?

Any other ideas?

Three.

1. One is that this could be a mistake hit. Perhaps the target was another real estate agent in the office. This seems unlikely though, this guy was an expert hitman! He would have checked and double checked. Plus, he met Mike before, so he had time to verify that this was the guy he was supposed to hit.

2. After reading The Iceman Kulkinski's biography (I hghly recommend it to any true crimes fan. :cool: ) I'm wondering if this was a "practice" hit by the hitman. Maybe he wanted to test whether this method of killing someone with the sword can would work. The Iceman once killed an innocent guy with a crossbow to see if it would work(:( ). Maybe this was some form of an experiment. Or maybe this was a try-out for being the hitman of an organized crime organization. They wanted to see how good he would be so they had him murder an innocent real-estate agent to see if he could pull it off and get away with the crime. Much like how the Philly mob tested Kulkinski by having him murder an innocent guy on the street. Sad but true.

3. While Mike was the target maybe, he was not the person that the client of the hitman was angry with.
a. Maybe this was similar to the Cynthia Anderson case, where the client wanted to send a message to the real estate agency.
b. Perhaps someone was in love with his wife and saw this as a way to get rid of his competition and free her up from the obstacle of marriage. Maybe this guy figured that after a year or so he could start a relationship with her and finally have the woman of his dreams.
c. Maybe Mike is a vital witness to something that he and everyone else is unaware of. Perhaps some organized crime syndicate was involved in a complex real estate swindle. Maybe Mike had information they felt could be used against them. They may have decided to play it safe and have this potential witness eliminated. Maybe Mike sold a forclosed or possessed property?


Some things to consider.
1. This wasn;t this guy's first, second or even third crime. This hitman has some other murders somewhere on his record.
2. This hitman was not local. By his accent, it seems like he was imported in from some large city on the east coast.
3. A hitman this good does not come cheap. Someone had the DESIRE, CAPABILITY, AND NECESSITY to hire someone like this. I don't think the motives for this crime are petty. Usually MONEY, LOVE or JAILTIME are the driving motives for this type of crime.
4. The fact that the watch and ring was taken was most lilkely done to prove that Mike was dead. Which leads me to wonder how the client would know Mikes ring or watch? This means the client must know Mike very well.
5. We're assuming the killer was not crippled because of the knife-cane. But it is possible that the killer was indeed crippled and ALWAYS carries the cane with him. Perhaps these injuries are from a life in organized crime.
6. Not too many knife canes around. This weapon has to be unique enough to be traced. Family heirloom?

Wow. All three of those ideas are great (and incredibly chilling). Particularly the idea of trying out or practicing for a future hit; that is really scary, but it is possible. I think the idea that, perhaps, this was a message or a way to get back at someone else is quite intriguing, and sounds like it might be the best idea yet! Nice.

Particularly the idea of trying out or practicing for a future hit; that is really scary, but it is possible.

One of the reasons I thought about this idea is the fact that killing someone with a knife cane is not necessarily the most efficient or cleanest way of murder.

The guy could have shot him with a gun any time, any place.

The advantage of using the knife cane is that nobody suspects it of being a weapon. As well as being cripple, nobod suspects the attacker of being that strong physically.

If I were a mobster and I wanted to kill someone I know that might be expecting a gun(or might have a gun himself), this method would be perfect. You could even elaborate on it even, by dressing up as an old man.

Hmm, yes. This case is so strange. I mean, I could buy into the mob hit, the problem is, no one really seems to know why the mob or any other organized crime would target Mike Emert. The sword cane is such an unusual weapon. Plus the amount of times that Mike is stabbed. Usually if someone stabs another person repeatedly like that it is a personal kind of crime. Simply because to stab someone over and over again so methodically, you would to have some kind of emotion built up. Whereas to shoot someone and be done is rather impersonal.

So why was Mike killed? Clearly the handicap was a rouse. Mike was 6 feet tall, roughly 190 pounds so he was in very good shape. So it seems weird how a guy in his 50's with a supposed handicap could not only overpower Mike but then drag his body from one room to the other and actually lift him up to put him in the tub. Now my question is, was the killer actually in the mob or organized crime? Was this a hit by someone who wanted to do Mike Emert in? Or was it a thrill kill? As I said, a few years ago I was doing research into this and on the AMW website, came across the case of a man named Al Kite who was murdered in Colorado. Now, there were some differences, but among the similarities were that a man in his 50's with an east coast accent who walked with a limp had moved into Kite's residence. Kite had been advertising for a roommate. Kite was found stabbed to death in his home and the killer took some money from Kite and disappeared. But it was a rather small amount of money and the killing was so vicious the cops felt that robbery was not the killers motive and that he was probably taking the money more or less just for the sake of taking it but not because that is why he wanted to kill.

Anyway, that case was in the Denver suburb of Aurora, Colorado. I contacted the detective on the case via e-mail, Tom Sobeski and he was actually very nice and informative. Basically I asked him if he had looked into the Mike Emert case up in King County, Washington as I felt there were a few eerie similarities. I was surprised when he said that in fact he had checked out the case and spoken to the detective assigned to that case in King County to compare notes. Now I cannot remember if it was Sobeski that contacted King County or if King County contacted him? I think it was actually King County that contacted Sobeski but I cannot remember for sure. Anyway, interesting circumstances.

Here is the case I was talking about above. That of Al Kite. http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=37694

Yes I saw that case on amw. I thought that was the mike emert case! Oh lord the similarities are uncanny. On amw the killer really covered his tracks. He used fake ID's that could not be traced.

The problem I have with the pychotic killer angle is that someone this good at killing usually doesn't have his talents go to waste like this.

Also he had to have learned all these tricks through somebody.

The use of fake ids screams organized crime.

But would a professional hitman torture and beat a guy to death? Then there is the accent or lack of one. I kinda wanna believe this was a hit but al had nothing in his background, so I dunno.

It definitely seems possible that Mike was not targeted by a hit man. I know we all keep saying that the killing was done "really well," but the more I think about this case, I'm not sure. I mean, he did a good job in the sense that he hasn't been caught yet, but think of some of the psychotic killers that were not caught for a long time.

Plus, I like the idea that mastermind mentioned, about Mike being killed because they wanted him out of the picture (perhaps a man thought their wife/girlfriend was romantically involved with Mike), or to get back at someone else (revenge against a family/friend of Mike's). In those scenarios, it seems that Mike wouldn't know the guy in the first place, and that person could have done this without it being a hit.

When people say it was well done, I think they mean that it was planned well and the cane ruse was a smart idea. I agree, but I think that it could have been an amateur hit. Yes, they were ingenious ideas, but a smart person could have probably thought of them without having killed before.

I just have this feeling that it's not a psychotic murderer in the sense that it was planned, and took at least two days to carry out. From what I have seen, it seems that such killers are impulsive, and wouldn't risk being exposed on two separate occasions. It certainly does seem that Mike's killer wanted him killed specifically. And remember too, the owner of the house walked in and the killer had to leave very quickly, hence the water still running. It would seem that perhaps this killer isn't as smart as we think, if he stuck around long enough to potentially be caught.

I'm starting to wonder if such a blatant attempt to wash away evidence must indicate that either 1) the killer is already in the system and didn't want to be identified through some database; or 2) the killer is someone Mike does know, or could be seen as an immediate suspect, and wanted to get any evidence cleaned. If it was some stranger for higher, would it really matter if there was some evidence? How would anyone really know where to look, etc..?

Just an idea.

But would a professional hitman torture and beat a guy to death?

1. If the client requests it, the hitman will have the target receive a gruesome death.

2. Remember that he doesn;t have any other weapon other than the sword-cane. Using a gun would alert people via the sound. He has to use the blunt of the cane to render him unconcious first. He then needs to use the sword of the cane to kill him sufficiently. He probably does want to overkill the victim here. The worst thing that could happen is that Mike survives.

3. Was he tortured? I though only enough damage was done to kill him? Sword-canes are not the cleanest of weapons.



I'm starting to wonder if such a blatant attempt to wash away evidence must indicate that either 1) the killer is already in the system and didn't want to be identified through some database; or 2) the killer is someone Mike does know, or could be seen as an immediate suspect, and wanted to get any evidence cleaned. If it was some stranger for higher, would it really matter if there was some evidence? How would anyone really

Most hitman are that thorough, even if they don;t have paper on them.
Remember this crime could link him to a crime he is going to commit later that may have evidence. The investigator of the next crime could link that crime to this one.

[QUOTE]When people say it was well done, I think they mean that it was planned well and the cane ruse was a smart idea. I agree, but I think that it could have been an amateur hit. Yes, they were ingenious ideas, but a smart person could have probably thought of them without having killed before.

And remember too, the owner of the house walked in and the killer had to leave very quickly, hence the water still running. It would seem that perhaps this killer isn't as smart as we think, if he stuck around long enough to potentially be caught.

1. Disabling a person like Mike is not easy. It almost seems like the murderer was well familiar with how to attack someone and use a knife.

2. As for sticking around too long. Keep in mind the ultimate person that he has to avoid is a police officer. I'm sure he;s prepared to kill a second person if necessary. :( There's plenty of room in the bathtub.

3. An amateur would not select a knife cane to do this type of murder. He would have chosen a gun. An amateur would not have realized that the gun would make noise. That's the prime reason why I believe

4. Knife-canes are very rare and hard to find. It also leads to the question of why an amateur would have such a weapon in his possesion? The people who tend to carry such a weapon are people who are constantly worried about their own safety. I find it hard to believe he bought such a weapon at a shop just for this particular murder.

5. The fact that he spend a great deal of time moving the body into the tube to drain it reeks of professionalism. Also add to the fact that he knew that he didn't have to dispose of the body, he could leave it there.


I'm starting to wonder if such a blatant attempt to wash away evidence must indicate that either 1) the killer is already in the system and didn't want to be identified through some database; or 2) the killer is someone Mike does know, or could be seen as an immediate suspect, and wanted to get any evidence cleaned. If it was some stranger for higher, would it really matter if there was some evidence? How would anyone really

1. Wouldn't Mike be suspicious about why this guy he knows is walking with a cane, now?
2. Wouldn't Mike's wife and his friends be able to point out this person. Especially since he left his house twice, with a cane. Somebody should have been able to say "hey, Joe got into an accident and is walking around in a cane?"
3. or if he uses a can all the time, someone like that with an Eastern accent should stand out.

No I don;t think, Mike Emert knew his killer.

I wonder if Mike's killer might have been a cop or an ex-cop?

That would be the other alternative to him being a hitman.

'Course nothing says he couldn't be both a cop and a hitman.

Something that I think gets overlooked in this case is the fact that they guy seems to not be from the area.

Here is the case I was talking about above. That of Al Kite. http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=37694
Holy. Crap. The similarities to the Mike Emert case are intriguing to say the least.

Even if it's not the same guy, I get the feeling that both killers watch a lot of detective movies or read a lot of murder mysteries. The cane-as-ruse thing, the cell phone trick...it all sounds like something you'd read in a book. It makes me wonder if any of us can think of movies or books that have these kinds of scenarios.

A Romanian accent? That's a pretty specific accent to pick out! I live in an area with a lot of Eastern European immigrants, but can't really tell one accent from another. I wonder if that's something the mother really knew about or if it's just something a woman from Colorado would say about someone with a thick East Coast accent. Let's be frank, there are some weeeird East Coast accents out there :)

I wonder if Mike's killer might have been a cop or an ex-cop?

That would be the other alternative to him being a hitman.

'Course nothing says he couldn't be both a cop and a hitman.

Something that I think gets overlooked in this case is the fact that they guy seems to not be from the area.

OMG yes, this is what i've been thinking too. The murder was waaay to clean and the guy couldnt be traced or anything. This isnt your average killer IMO. I have a feeling it could be somone in law enforcement or former LE.

Some things to consider.
1. This wasn;t this guy's first, second or even third crime. This hitman has some other murders somewhere on his record.
2. This hitman was not local. By his accent, it seems like he was imported in from some large city on the east coast.
3. A hitman this good does not come cheap. Someone had the DESIRE, CAPABILITY, AND NECESSITY to hire someone like this. I don't think the motives for this crime are petty. Usually MONEY, LOVE or JAILTIME are the driving motives for this type of crime.
4. The fact that the watch and ring was taken was most lilkely done to prove that Mike was dead. Which leads me to wonder how the client would know Mikes ring or watch? This means the client must know Mike very well.
5. We're assuming the killer was not crippled because of the knife-cane. But it is possible that the killer was indeed crippled and ALWAYS carries the cane with him. Perhaps these injuries are from a life in organized crime.
6. Not too many knife canes around. This weapon has to be unique enough to be traced. Family heirloom?

Brilliant insights, Mastermind! But then again, that is why you are, well, "Mastermind" :lol:

All of this is why I just don't buy that Mike Emert was as squeaky-clean as the segment says. I just can't believe that. He had to have been either having some kind of affair, or involved in something shady, etc., and was just so slick that he was able to hide it from everyone.

I mean, he did a good job in the sense that he hasn't been caught yet, but think of some of the psychotic killers that were not caught for a long time.


He did a good job in more senses than that. He killed him, took the booty, dragged the body downstairs to the bathroom, washed away the evidence, and drove his SUV back to the airport all in less than an hour. He also did one heck of an acting job, and arranged for two business meetings without leaving any information as to who he was and no evidence by which to track him down.

The cases HAVE to be connected right? I mean the similarities are just too close and, even more compelling, the differences aren’t that far apart. The crimes both occurred in the Western US, where I imagine the killer likes the more spread out suburban housing developments.

I can’t clap to the whole hitman angle as there’s absolutely nothing in the victim’s history (either case) to suggest any sort of vendetta a hired killer would be involved in.

I think that there’s a highly functioning, very intelligent, psychotic and heartless scumbag out there who has found an anonymous way to kill. I think we could make some assumptions about the killer in the choice of vitim(s), and the lengths he’s gone to conceal his identity.

I can’t clap to the whole hitman angle as there’s absolutely nothing in the victim’s history (either case) to suggest any sort of vendetta a hired killer would be involved in.

1. You don't think this guy is a little too experienced to not be a hitman? That someone with these abilities to kill someone wouldn't find work
You don;t think this whole operation was planned a little to well?

2. The problem may lie more with other people connected to Mike rather than Mike himself. There have been hits done against innocent people by organizations for a variety of reasons. Innocent secretaries have been hit to send messages to their bosses. It does happen.

3. This killing of another man with a sword is too ambitious for a first time killer. This has to be a hitman or a serial killer that change his M.O.(which I am not that keen on as a theory).

4. If Mike Emert were involved in some type of sophisticated fraud, that might not be that easy to find. Especially if you only link is dead. Any business that was done with Mike has ceased. The whole operation may have cleaned up and changed people.

5. If mike was having an affair with a women in another state..that would be really easy to hide as long as phone trail is not too obvious.


The cases HAVE to be connected right? I mean the similarities are just too close and, even more compelling, the differences aren’t that far apart. The crimes both occurred in the Western US, where I imagine the killer likes the more spread out suburban housing developments.

1. I'm starting to think more and more about the "practice hit" theory. That someone in a criminal organization wanted to see if this method could work in order to kill people.

2. Thinking back to the New Orleans serial killer...I wonder if this is the same thing...that a "false serial murder" was done to make it seem like a serial killer was involved.The killer was a cop in that case too.

3. They may not be connected at all. The later killer may have been inspired by the former killing. I have to read the articles but was the same preparation before and after the killing the same. Was the only similarities that

My gut feeling tells me there is more to this case than a simple r

Killing someone with a knife sword is not an easy thing to do. You almost have to practice at it. Not like killing someone with a regular knife.

As "The Iceman" Richard Kulkhinski has proven...serial killer and hitman may not be mutually exclusive.:(

I keep thinking about that "Mr. Softee" guy Robert Pronger(sp?) who specialized in cyanide.

I could easily see Mike emert's killer being someone like "Mr. Softee" and/or "The Iceman". Professors in the science of murder.:(

I lived only two miles from the house where Mike Emert was murdered. I was raised in Woodinville and his murder shocked the entire community, and Seattle area at the time. I remember when it happened in 2001; I had the day off from work and was eating a late lunch when the local TV news broke the story, and showed the exterior of the house. A day later, I drove by as it was still roped off with officers standing outside.

The lady who owned the home, where Emert was killed, was very lucky. She went home for lunch to find Emert's body in her bathtub ... a few moments after it happened, almost coming face to face with the killer.

Now, it is very interesting on how the killer escaped with Emert's Escalade. The Police asked the public if they saw the vehicle, after the time of the murder, on the Woodinville-Redmond Road. I think this is extremely odd and puzzling. He could have left the house and neighborhood, and taken a right on the Woodinville-Duvall Road, and gone down the hill towards the entrance of the I-5 freeway to get back to the Kirkland Park Place Shopping mall where he was picked up by Emert (and where they met a few days before). The killer would have been there in minutes, BUT, the killer took the backroads instead from downtown Woodinville at NE 175th Street (the main intersection). The backroads to Kirkland via the Woodinville-Redmond Road are full of stoplights. By taking this route, the vehicle would have a far better chance of being seen. Since this was the case and the police were asking the public if the car was seen on this road, has me thinking that the Escalade had a GPS or On-Star system, and it recorded the killer's route back to Kirkland Park Place mall. I'm not sure if this was the same route that Emert drove with the killer to the house, or if the killer entered in and asked for another alternative route to get back to Kirkland Park Place, because a GPS system would offer the first and best option of taking the I-5 freeway.

Now, I am very familiar with Kirkland Park Place mall where the killer left his vehicle and where Emert met with him days before his murder. It is near a busy bus line that I know very well that goes over Lake Washington into downtown Seattle. But, knowing the extent of the crime, the killer (with Emert's blood on him), would have escaped to a parked car nearby. The mall has a gym, movie theater, art galleries, grocery stores and such, and the killer parked his car in the gym's parking lot. The mall is always busy and he would have blended right in. The King County Police never revealed what evidence they found in the Escalade.

I also truly believe that Emert's murder is related to Al Kite's Colorado murder. Emert's wallet was found at Seattle's Coleman dock, which is a busy ferry dock with many people who use it on a daily basis. His cell phone was found; the details still not disclosed where and when. The Al Kite killer wanted the same scenario used for the cell phone as the killer did for Mike Emert.

A few years ago, I met my parent's Windermere real estate agent who was selling their Woodinville home, the house I grew up in. This agent knew and worked with Emert and his family. This person said there was a rumor going around that there were cocaine dealings by real estate agents where the transactions took place in various homes that were for sale on the market; Emert’s murder could have had some connection to this as a deal or debt gone bad.

The real estate agent told us that, Emert, “Put up a hell of a fight.” He fought back hard at the killer because his knuckles had multiple, deep, stab wounds.

Wow. Thanks fo rthe insights, Kodiak. These two murders (Mike Emert & Al Kite) are fascinating to me, and as I said I think they have almost got to be linked somehow. I'm intrigued not only by the interesting facts we do know, but by the things we don't know which are almost assuredly being held back by the investigators. Also it seems as though the killer has gone to such great lengths to baffle the investigation: the secluded crime scene and isolation with the victim, disposing of the cell phone in a busy place, holding his shirt over his head while using the decedant's ATM card, possibly affecting an accent or a physical malady, and the attempts to cleanse the body of physical evidence (at least in the Mike Emert murder).

I'm less familiar with the Al Kite murder although I believe I saw somewhere that he was tortured over a length of time and that some truly horrible acts were commited upon him. I haven't heard that of Mike Emert. Indeed, it seems as though the killer had a relatively brief struggle with him. To that point: I'm curious as to how much, if anything, the homeowner returning had to do with the attack ending? Did the killer somehow know the time window? Does anyone know if the homeowner witnessed the killer fleeing in Mike's vehicle?

I'm less familiar with the Al Kite murder although I believe I saw somewhere that he was tortured over a length of time and that some truly horrible acts were commited upon him. I haven't heard that of Mike Emert. Indeed, it seems as though the killer had a relatively brief struggle with him. To that point: I'm curious as to how much, if anything, the homeowner returning had to do with the attack ending? Did the killer somehow know the time window? Does anyone know if the homeowner witnessed the killer fleeing in Mike's vehicle?

Hi, Corky. I, too, didn't know much about the Al Kite murder until recently. His killer wiped all the blood spatter from Kite's basement walls after the long hours of torture and killing. He even showered and poured bleach down the shower drain after to eliminate all trace evidence. I even found out that he possibly slept in Kite's bed, fixed a meal, and wore some of Kite's clothing when he left the crime scene. Also, there is a similarity of an ATM card like Emert's murder:

"Police found Emert's wallet - minus his ATM card - on a telephone at Colman Dock on the Seattle waterfront a day after the slaying."
The Seattle Times. Friday, April 27, 2001.

Yes, unlike Kite, Emert's murder was quick, especially since Emert was a tall man, in order to subdue him. As for the home owner of the house where Emert was murderd, she just missed him by a few minutes. I don't think the killer knew her time frame; it was pure luck and timing for him. If the Escalade was still in the driveway at the time, I'm sure she would have turned around and when elsewhere for lunch, knowing that an agent was showing the house. But, what if she pulled up to the house as the killer stepped out the front door?

This is the house (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=19500+157th+Place+Northeast,+Woodinville,+WA&sll=47.767179,-122.131657&sspn=0.00205,0.005415&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=19500+157th+Pl+NE,+Woodinville,+King,+Washington+98072&layer=c&cbll=47.768829,-122.130371&panoid=BiozmN0NzGMFOh01-MnkWw&cbp=12,43.15,,0,-0.36&ll=47.768832,-122.130246&spn=0.00817,0.021662&z=17) where Mike Emert was killed. (the streetviews will take a sec to load)

This is the Kirkland Park Place Mall parking lot (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Kirkland+near+Park+Place+Center,+WA&sll=47.768883,-122.13037&sspn=0.003995,0.010831&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Park+Place+Center,+Kirkland,+Washington+98033&ll=47.678881,-122.198752&spn=0.002046,0.005415&z=19&layer=c&cbll=47.678846,-122.198863&panoid=Q_j7m-qiuU77W9MgNDqG8w&cbp=12,129.73,,0,9.35) where Emert's killer left his Escalade.

The Colman Dock (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=colman+dock,+seattle&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=76.152164,177.451172&ie=UTF8&hq=coleman+dock,&hnear=Seattle,+WA&ll=47.602054,-122.33933&spn=0,0.043323&z=16&layer=c&cbll=47.602055,-122.33915&panoid=dygiSOmY-HxEKuqR9bVKFw&cbp=12,50.39,,0,-2.17) where Emert's wallet and cell phone were found days later after the murder.

A bit off topic, but a weird thought just hit me right now. I wonder if there will ever be a trial of an accused murderer in which some of the evidence brought out in court are addresses the defendant punched into Google Earth, or similar software, of houses that the alleged victim’s were murdered in. The theory being that the defendant was re-living or fantasizing about his crimes the way crime scenes are often staked out to see if the offender will come back.

Like that one UM segment about the two girls found murdered in rural AZ. If they ever locked onto a suspect and had sufficient cause to look through his computer, I’d bet they’d look to see if he did any Google Earth/Maps visits of the area.

Interesting topic and it would be interesting on how this Google scenario would hold up in court, not so much as "re-living or fantasizing" but more of premeditating on certain locations and residences. I think using Google nowadays makes it much easier for criminals to plan crimes such as a bank robbery, murder, etc., by viewing street views, maps, and satellite imagery.

And I think if the computer that was used, and the evidence was null and void, all the police would have to do is trace the person's IP address to Google and such sites that are used. There is no way of going around that unless the person thought out beforehand to block or change their IP address on a regular basis.

Now, it is very interesting on how the killer escaped with Emert's Escalade. The Police asked the public if they saw the vehicle, after the time of the murder, on the Woodinville-Redmond Road. I think this is extremely odd and puzzling. He could have left the house and neighborhood, and taken a right on the Woodinville-Duvall Road, and gone down the hill towards the entrance of the I-5 freeway to get back to the Kirkland Park Place Shopping mall where he was picked up by Emert (and where they met a few days before). The killer would have been there in minutes, BUT, the killer took the backroads instead from downtown Woodinville at NE 175th Street (the main intersection). The backroads to Kirkland via the Woodinville-Redmond Road are full of stoplights. By taking this route, the vehicle would have a far better chance of being seen.

1. Was there heavy traffic at that time of day on the Interstate? Going down a freeway isn't going to be faster if your stuck in a bottleneck. It may be as simple as that he took the backroads because he didn;t want to get trapped in gridlock.

2. Perhaps he didn;t fear the car being noticed, because he knew the car couldn;t be traced to him. The license plate may not be traceable to him. If this was a hit, the car may have been dumped and the killer went back home in another vehicle.

3. How heavily patrolled by police rollers are those backroads? I wonder if there was more of a chance of running into highway patrol on the freeway, that buy local police rollers in a residential or suburban area.


Kodiak.
How is the crime situation in that area?
Do you have a heavy organized crime presence in that area or just the typical drug dealing situation (which is nothing to sneeze at)

"He had a few interesting people along the way, and a few interesting transactions at that." - Mary Beth Emert

Story Published: Jul 16, 2008. Story Updated: Nov 20, 2008.
KOMO 4 News, Seattle.

I wonder what she found out after all these years? Who were the people? And what were the transactions?

Here is the story (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/25547124.html?)link and video (http://www.komonews.com/news/local/25547124.html?tab=video)segment:

A bit off topic, but a weird thought just hit me right now. I wonder if there will ever be a trial of an accused murderer in which some of the evidence brought out in court are addresses the defendant punched into Google Earth, or similar software, of houses that the alleged victim’s were murdered in. The theory being that the defendant was re-living or fantasizing about his crimes the way crime scenes are often staked out to see if the offender will come back.

This is probably easier said than done.

1. This is actually part of a much larger issue of a killer simply searching anybody on the "internet". Ex. suppose the police confiscate a suspects laptop and find the victim's name in the "auto-fill" in for his google search. Technically this would prove that the suspect knew of a victim that was supposed to be a relative stranger to him.

2. Any evidence found via that method would be circumstantial. Other evidence would need to be found in addition to it.

3. This would only work for cases were the murder victim and killer are strangers. This would not work for a murder case where a husband kills his wife.

4. I'm by no means a tech guru, but I do know that it is not that easy to trace someone by just their IP address.

5. Public computers like libraries and internet cafe;s would make this difficult.

6. If I were a lawyer, my defense would be that the clients internet account and computer were hacked into by the killer. another defense was that I was simply looking at house I heard about at 65 West Hollow Drive, and my fingers slipped and I typed the victims address 66 West Hollow Drive instead. being that the house was close by I decided to look at 66 West hollow drive to see the neighborhood and the architecture.

7. I could be wrong, but I don;t think LE can issue a warrant yet for internet companies to release information on people that use their sites yet. Anyone know if this is possible yet. I would think privacy laws still prevent this.

8. BTK may have been the first serial killer to be did in by the internet.

9. If given the choice of internet stalking methods...I would imagine facebook would be a better choice than google maps. :lol:

I mean if you have the victims address already...why do you need to look on google maps for??? Just drive to the victims house. :confused:

Don;t most people use google maps because the damn house is too far away to travel too? :confused:

If it hasn't happened already, I'm almost positive we will eventually have a crime solved....

..because the killer friended his victim on facebook!!!:lol:

And that information can be found simply on the victim's blackberry or cell phone!!!! LOL!!!

No warrant needed!!!! LOL!!!!

Hi, Mastermind.

1. Was there heavy traffic at that time of day on the Interstate?
Traffic would have been starting since it was the noon lunch hour, but nothing close to rush hour. I've never seen too much State Patrol presence from taking I-5 South to Kirkland, it's a 3-4 minute drive. The killer would have hit the lunchtime traffic in downtown Woodinville which is far worse than any I-5 traffic at that time of day. Downtown Woodinville only has two lanes. He would have been stopped at the main NE 175th intersection for a period of minutes as it is a stoplight that takes a long time to change. He then would have drove through the main part of town, hitting more stoplights and traffic (he must have even seen the 405/I-5 South entrence sign, too, which was not far from him at the time) then he took a left onto the Woodinville-Redmond Road; there is more of a chance to get pulled over by Woodinville Police; he even had more of a greater chance of getting pulled over by Kirkland Police, (who are very, very strict-- traffic and vehicle wise) when he made it onto Central Way leading to downtown Kirkland. I see the entire route as extremely risky.

This has always made me believe that the killer was not local or from the Seattle area.

2. Perhaps he didn;t fear the car being noticed, because he knew the car couldn;t be traced to him. The license plate may not be traceable to him. If this was a hit, the car may have been dumped and the killer went back home in another vehicle.
I believe he had another vehicle waiting in the Kirkland Park Place lot after leaving the Escalade. Police think he took the bus back to Seattle. I disagree. He, too, could have been injured or bleeding from the fierce fight that Emert gave him. He could have changed clothes before he left the murder scene, or got on a bus, but highly unlikely.


3. How heavily patrolled by police rollers are those backroads? I wonder if there was more of a chance of running into highway patrol on the freeway, that buy local police rollers in a residential or suburban area.
The backroads are patrolled heavily for speeders. I'm sure he saw one or two, maybe a third, when he got to Kirkland, and started to feel extremely uneasy.

Kodiak.
How is the crime situation in that area?
Do you have a heavy organized crime presence in that area or just the typical drug dealing situation (which is nothing to sneeze at)
The town is like Twin Peaks. No murders whatsoever. There was a robbery at the local 7-Eleven back in '97 or '98 when the manager shot and killed the robber in self-defense. And no organized crime.

2. Perhaps he didn;t fear the car being noticed, because he knew the car couldn;t be traced to him. The license plate may not be traceable to him. If this was a hit, the car may have been dumped and the killer went back home in another vehicle.
I believe he had another vehicle waiting in the Kirkland Park Place lot after leaving the Escalade. Police think he took the bus back to Seattle. I disagree. He, too, could have been injured or bleeding from the fierce fight that Emert gave him. He could have changed clothes before he left the murder scene, or got on a bus, but highly unlikely.

But if he was bleeding there would be a blood trail leading on his way out?

This has always made me believe that the killer was not local or from the Seattle area.

agreed. most likely from the east coast.

Kodiak.
How is the crime situation in that area?
Do you have a heavy organized crime presence in that area or just the typical drug dealing situation (which is nothing to sneeze at)
The town is like Twin Peaks. No murders whatsoever. There was a robbery at the local 7-Eleven back in '97 or '98 when the manager shot and killed the robber in self-defense. And no organized crime.

1. Your "Twin Peaks" line is very ironic...considering that when all was said and done there was plenty of suspicious behavior going on in Twin Peaks.:lol:

2. When I was referring to your area...I meant your metropolitan area.
I'm referring to the other counties, towns, municipalities and the closest major city. I'm not just referring to the town itself. I'm referring to all areas within a 2 hr driving distance.

3. What is the nearest port?

But if he was bleeding there would be a blood trail leading on his way out?
No, his blood could have been swashed away in the shower with Emert's or in the sink with the running water. If he was was injured, I'm sure he would have wrapped or applied pressure to the wound. I'm sure if he was pro hitman, he would always be prepared for a worst-case scenario.

2. When I was referring to your area...I meant your metropolitan area.
I'm referring to the other counties, towns, municipalities and the closest major city. I'm not just referring to the town itself. I'm referring to all areas within a 2 hr driving distance.

That would be Seattle, I'm not sure what the statistics were for the area at that time, probably nothing like now with all the police killings happening.

3. What is the nearest port?
I would say Seattle and the city of Everett.

But if he was bleeding there would be a blood trail leading on his way out?
No, his blood could have been swashed away in the shower with Emert's or in the sink with the running water. If he was was injured, I'm sure he would have wrapped or applied pressure to the wound. I'm sure if he was pro hitman, he would always be prepared for a worst-case scenario.



Your saying he washed and clean every droplet of blood that fell on the carpet, floor, grass and pavement?

Unless he had a first aid kit, he;s going to drop blood on his way out.

I'm sorry I have to disagree. I don;t think he was injured that badly.

Especially if the injury to his leg was fake. I think this guy was very capable at subduing inndividuals.

3. What is the nearest port?
I would say Seattle and the city of Everett.


2. When I was referring to your area...I meant your metropolitan area.
I'm referring to the other counties, towns, municipalities and the closest major city. I'm not just referring to the town itself. I'm referring to all areas within a 2 hr driving distance.

That would be Seattle, I'm not sure what the statistics were for the area at that time, probably nothing like now with all the police killings happening.

Would you call the town a suburb of Seatle?

Theory:

What if there was a long time organized crime hitman or thug. But suddenly he's become crippled due to age or an accident (perhaps even and accident on a hit)

Rather than retire, this guy decides to "modify" his modus operandi, and comes up with the concept of using the cane-sword.

His new modus operandi is to pretend to be a crippled old man, get his target into an enclosed area. Bludgeon him with the sheath, and then finishing him off with the sword.

That is a great theory, but nothing new. There have been so many proposed theories about the killer since the early days of the murder, that was one of them. Even theories on Emert's side of being in a "love triangle" or "gay love affair" gone wrong. Listed below is a story link and some sketches of persons of interest in Emert's murder.

I also remember the clue mentioned in the link about the mysterious white van and driver that was seen by the house at the time of the murder.

"Two More Sought In Killing Of Realtor" (http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4053681.html)

http://media.komonews.com/images/emert_persons_of_interest.jpg

That is a great theory, but nothing new.

Didn;t expect it would be new.

The theory is really based on the reason why the killer would use a sword cane in the first place.

Two possibilities
a. It was part of the plan to use th cane and the killer was faking his injury.
b. The hitman was indeed crippled and simply used the best weapon available to him at that time.

If he actually needed a cane, there can;t be that many east coast based hitmen that became crippled or around the time of the Mike Emert;s murder.

Even theories on Emert's side of being in a "love triangle" or "gay love affair" gone wrong. Listed below is a story link and some sketches of persons of interest in Emert's murder.


Why did they think a "gay" love affair?:confused:

Police have never openly stated a "gay" theory, but people started to think it since Emert's past was so clean. People theorized this more than the love triangle theory. In fact, when I was under writing management a few years back, my manager, a former police officer out of state, read up on Emert's murder after I sent him all the news articles about it. When he got back to me the next day, the first thing he suspected was a gay love affair gone wrong. He mentioned and knew of previous cases of rage killings like this from scorned, jealous, gay lovers.

I just re-watched this segment for this first time in quite a while. It stated that after killing Mike, the killer drove Mike's car back to the meeting place so that he could get into his own car. The meeting place had been in a post office. This was 2001, there had to be video surveillance on that post office or maybe from a surrounding place of business that could have possibly captured the killers car and maybe even the plate number. I went to our local post office last Saturday and there were three cameras around the outside of the place.

Also, I'm not sure if this is the case with all real estate agents, but my roommate in college is a real estate agent and anytime he shows a house, he makes a copy of the persons drivers license and gives it to his boss/co-worker just in case anything happens. My friend did say that if he knows the person or has worked with the person in the past, he doesn't do the drivers license thing. That made me think of the possibility that maybe Mike knew this person and felt comfortable enough around him.

Also, I'm not sure if this is the case with all real estate agents, but my roommate in college is a real estate agent and anytime he shows a house, he makes a copy of the persons drivers license and gives it to his boss/co-worker just in case anything happens. My friend did say that if he knows the person or has worked with the person in the past, he doesn't do the drivers license thing. That made me think of the possibility that maybe Mike knew this person and felt comfortable enough around him.

Your friend was smart as an agent and was ahead of his time in the profession. Unfortunately, it was Emert's murder that put in motion the same thing for all agents at all real estate agencies in the Pacific Northwest Region.

I don't think Emert knew his killer. His wife, Mary Beth, said he mentioned the days prior that Mike frequently said he was a "weird dude" and acted odd. That gives me the impression Mike had just met him and didn't know him.

Another theory I have his is ... that Mike's murder was a case of mistaken identity, or he used Mike as an example to show another Emert family member what could be done to them. It could be part of a threatening scheme or something. I know that Mike and Mary Beth worked with her mother at the same office, she still does to this day ... and his uncle (http://www.billemert.com/) still works for Windermere as well, but at another office.

Another theory I have his is ... that Mike's murder was a case of mistaken identity, or he used Mike as an example to show another Emert family member what could be done to them. It could be part of a threatening scheme or something. I know that Mike and Mary Beth worked with her mother at the same office, she still does to this day ... and his uncle still works for Windermere as well, but at another office.

1. The killer had plenty of time to verify his target. He met him already face to face. And had some time to research. Doesn;t seem like he would be that sloppy.

2. Also keep in mind that he could kill Mike at any point by simply arranging to look at a property. He could delay the hit conceivably for months until the right moment. He could always reschedule the appointment with Mike at any time.

3. Where is the "correct hit"? If someone hired a hitman this good, there had to have been a great need for the target to be removed.


Also, I'm not sure if this is the case with all real estate agents, but my roommate in college is a real estate agent and anytime he shows a house, he makes a copy of the persons drivers license and gives it to his boss/co-worker just in case anything happens. My friend did say that if he knows the person or has worked with the person in the past, he doesn't do the drivers license thing. That made me think of the possibility that maybe Mike knew this person and felt comfortable enough around him.

Interesting thought

1. If Mike copied the license, it probably would have been moot. The guy may have had fake ID.

2. Perhaps Mike had a good reason to not give the identities of his clients to someone else. Perhaps there was more business being done that mere real estate transactions.

The more I think about it, being a real estate agent gives you a great excuse to meet someone in different house and places of residence.

You can;t bug or video a house that you don;t know the target is going to.

3. Considering that the guy has a cane.....he has a reasonable excuse to not have a driver's license. If Mike never saw this guy driving a car, the killer could easily say that he legally cannot drive and doesn't have a license.

I don't think Emert knew his killer. His wife, Mary Beth, said he mentioned the days prior that Mike frequently said he was a "weird dude" and acted odd. That gives me the impression Mike had just met him and didn't know him.

If what you say is correct...it brings an interesting point.

Mike had a weird feeling about this guys, and yet still went to see him.

This leads one to believe that at the time Mike did not feel like he was in danger of being killed or hit.

If Mike had done something like threatened to testify against a drug dealer, I would think he would be less inclined to see this guy....(at least not unarmed).

You would think someone that was involved in some risky or illegal business would feel paranoid at someone "weird" coming to see him.

Police have never openly stated a "gay" theory, but people started to think it since Emert's past was so clean. People theorized this more than the love triangle theory. In fact, when I was under writing management a few years back, my manager, a former police officer out of state, read up on Emert's murder after I sent him all the news articles about it. When he got back to me the next day, the first thing he suspected was a gay love affair gone wrong. He mentioned and knew of previous cases of rage killings like this from scorned, jealous, gay lovers.

Couple of problems I have with this

1. I don;t see how the sexual preference really changes anything in regards to the "affair gone wrong" theory. Mike could easily be seeing an underage girl that her father found out about. That is just as likely as Mike having a homosexual relationship.

The only reason to point to a homosexual affair is that serial meetings and phone calls from a guy would not be looked at as much compared to serial meetings and phone calls from a woman.

2. I can;t see an average joe being able to hire someone as good as this hitman. This person involved in the "love triangle" must be connected some how.

3. Usually when someone has an affair, there are signs and markers. There should be unusual phone calls from a a party. Reciepts, expenditures..etc. Things that a Private Investigator would find.

Your hiding an affair from your wife and friends..your not hiding it from the govt or the police.

If what you say is correct...it brings an interesting point.

Mike had a weird feeling about this guys, and yet still went to see him.

This leads one to believe that at the time Mike did not feel like he was in danger of being killed or hit.

Yes, I totally agree with the latter part of your statement. I think whatever the case, he let his guard down from a second party individual (the killer).

Also, not sure if you saw this, this video verifies Mary Beth's statement about Mike's comments about the man being odd. Her statement reflects what he told his co-worker's in the office that morning, that he was going to meet a "weird dude."


Widow still waiting for answers 7 years later
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/25547124.html?tab=video

I think this is one of those rare occasions when the offender is unknown to the victim, and may even be a serial killer. I know that a very slim percentage of murders are commited by strangers but I just feel like the amount of research done into Mr. Emert's life by the investigating authorities, coupled with the amount of attention this mystery has received all but eliminates Mr. Emert from being culpable of anything nefarious or conspiratorial. I don't think the reason for his murder had anything to do with his actions aside from him being a reasonably affluent real estate agent. I believe he was targeted by an offender who has a very particular way of stalking, setting up, robbing, and killing his victims.

Also as Mastermind has alluded to, Mr. Emert didn't behave as if in fear of being alone with this guy. He simply felt the guy was odd. And really...unless you are a confidential informant, or involved in illicit activity, etc...how often are any of us in fear for our life simply from being around an odd person?

I do believe this offender was responsible for the Al Kite murder in Co as well. Because I think they're related, IMO that further negates this being a "hit" or an arranged murder by someone who knew either victim.

Hambone2421 (may I just call you "Hambone"?, lol) has your roommate ever mentioned that some real estate agents have been known to open houses for "trysting"?

Kodiak, thank you for all of the informative posts and links. Would you say you're more familiar with this murder than the murder of Mr. Kite? Is that because you live in the general Seattle/Kirkland area? I've actually been to the sprawling Kirkland mall while visiting realtives. My cousin showed me how to stop the elevator and open up the elevator door between floors (we were 13...that's considered fun when you're 13).

Kodiak, thank you for all of the informative posts and links. Would you say you're more familiar with this murder than the murder of Mr. Kite? Is that because you live in the general Seattle/Kirkland area? I've actually been to the sprawling Kirkland mall while visiting realtives. My cousin showed me how to stop the elevator and open up the elevator door between floors (we were 13...that's considered fun when you're 13).

Yes, more familiar with Emert's murder since it is local having lived near the house of the crime scene and moving into a downtown Kirkland Condo a week after Emert's murder. My condo was down the road from Kirkland Park Place Mall. I remember all the days thereafter walking through the shopping center and seeing all the police bulletins about Emert's murder all over the place.

In fact, one of the suspects at the time, Jeffrey John Solo (who is now deceased), was a transient who always hung around the mall. He was in his 50's or 60's, limped, and used a cane. The police questioned him endlessly and Solo believed Emert's killer was trying to frame him for the murder.

Solo later took a polygraph test and passed. He was cleared and even truthful to the public through the newspapers saying he did admit trying to meet local, female real estate agents while using the ruse of trying to purchase a house.

He also admitted that he knew of Mike Emert, but I'm not sure if that was before or after the murder. He said there was an "Emert in-law/friend' connection of how he knew of him. It will be interesting to see what comes about with this case as we are approaching the 10th anniversary of the murder.

'Person of interest' in slaying says he's a con man, but he's not a killer
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/real10.shtml

In fact, one of the suspects at the time, Jeffrey John Solo (who is now deceased), was a transient who always hung around the mall. He was in his 50's or 60's, limped, and used a cane. The police questioned him endlessly and Solo believed Emert's killer was trying to frame him for the murder.

He also admitted that he knew of Mike Emert, but I'm not sure if that was before or after the murder. He said there was an "Emert in-law/friend' connection of how he knew of him. It will be interesting to see what comes about with this case as we are approaching the 10th anniversary of the murder.

1. When you mean "transient", are you saying that Mr. Solo is homeless? and without transportation?

2. Is Mr. Solo, "all there" mentally?

3. Does Mr. Solo have a criminal record?

4. Why would a homeless person keep a cane sword that he could hock for much needed cash?

but eliminates Mr. Emert from being culpable of anything nefarious or conspiratorial.

I'm not ready to make that assumption yet.

There has to be a very good reason for someone to have hired someone like this to kill Mike Emert.

Unless my previous theory was correct and this was a "practice hit".

Judging from the comments of Mike saying he was going to meet "a weird dude", I would say that he probably felt like the guy was harmless and may have even thought that the guy wasn't serious about buying the property, which is why he may not have copied his license or told someone his name.

Hambone2421 (may I just call you "Hambone"?, lol) has your roommate ever mentioned that some real estate agents have been known to open houses for "trysting"?

He was my roommate in college some years ago and I haven't spoken with him recently but he has never mentioned that to me but I wouldn't be surprised if that occurred.

1. When you mean "transient", are you saying that Mr. Solo is homeless? and without transportation?

Yes, he was homeless and had no transportation, only the bus system. Local clerks at the mall's grocery store always saw him hanging out back of the store when they were on their breaks for a smoke. They would talk to him and said he was nice and never feared him.

2. Is Mr. Solo, "all there" mentally?

He seemed coherent, deceptive and vague at times, but nothing I would call "out of touch with reality."

3. Does Mr. Solo have a criminal record?

Yes, he was in prison. He refers to his crimes in the article link posted above.

4. Why would a homeless person keep a cane sword that he could hock for much needed cash?

I don't think he would get much cash for a cane sword. He also stole some kitchen knives from a family member some time before the Emert crime to "protect" himself on the streets.

Also, another strange angle and theory was proposed on another online forum... I don't recall where, but someone suspected Emert's killer could be the Zodiac Killer. I thought this was intriguing as I had just read the book, "This is the Zodiac Speaking" by author and criminal profiler, Mike Kelleher. It was the best true crime book I've ever read. In fact, there were moments last summer, while reading the book in the evening, I would get up to make sure my doors and windows were locked. It was that good.

4. Why would a homeless person keep a cane sword that he could hock for much needed cash?

I don't think he would get much cash for a cane sword. He also stole some kitchen knives from a family member some time before the Emert crime to "protect" himself on the streets.

Some sword canes are extremely valuable antiques.


Also, another strange angle and theory was proposed on another online forum... I don't recall where, but someone suspected Emert's killer could be the Zodiac Killer. I thought this was intriguing as I had just read the book, "This is the Zodiac Speaking" by author and criminal profiler, Mike Kelleher. It was the best true crime book I've ever read. In fact, there were moments last summer, while reading the book in the evening, I would get up to make sure my doors and windows were locked. It was that good.

I'll admit that the Mike Emert murder sounds like something Z would do.

That depends all on the theory that Zodiac still remained active as a serial killer. A theory I do not believe, BTW.

I believe Z stopped killing because he didn;t need to. His letters and legacy were more than enough for him.

This is the Zodiac Speaking" by author and criminal profiler, Mike Kelleher. It was the best true crime book I've ever read. In fact, there were moments last summer, while reading the book in the evening, I would get up to make sure my doors and windows were locked. It was that good.


Yes, it is.

I know of Mike from zodiackiller.com. :)

The only problem I have with the book is that it really just tells us info that we already knew.

It also retreads a lot from Graysmith's book.

kodiak, if your looking for the best info on the Zodiac Killer case, join Zodiackiller.com. You can get all the letters, evidence, suspects, victims and latest theories on the case.

Here is the problem with Mike Emert and Al Kite's murders being the work of a serial killer.

1. This serial killer would have to be one of the most skilled serial killers in history.

a. He knows how to kill and use a sword cane.
b. He's fully aware of trace and DNA evidence and the methods of removing them.
c. He understands how to set up an ambush proberly.
d. he's patient enough to scope out his target and plan it through. Right up to his escape plan.
e. He may even be skilled at disguising himself and perhaps is a good enough actor to pretend to be doddering man on with a cane.
f. he understood enough that a gunshot would be heard


His murder could be used to write a text book on how to committ the perfect murder of a real estate person.

2. There is a reason serial killers tend to go after prostitutes, cab drivers, runaways and the homeless. There the easiest and quickest targets.

This guy is going after full grown and able men ( I assume Kite was able). Going after full grown men......without the aid of a firearm no less.
Not the best targets if you want to start a career as a serial killer.

3. As said before...killing someone with a sword cane is not easy. Sword canes are almost more like rapiers than broadswords.

Getting an actual high quality sword cane is even more difficult.

4. This cannot be this killers first, second or even third killing. If he;s a serial killer...he;s one that has morphed or changed MO.

5. If he;s bold enough to do two killings this same way...where's a third or fourth. Why stop at two?

Regarding sword canes

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-50389.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swordstick


1. There is a lot of doubt on whether sword canes are effective as weapons. In truth most of the ones built today (the cheap ones) are not even practical as weapons and are more novelty gimmicks.

2. Cane swords may not even be practical as walking implements, much less. You might be more hindered than helped using a sword cane as a walking implement.

3. Traditionally, sword canes were used and carried more as walking sticks for the abled, rather than the disabled.

4. To properly use a sword cane, you more than likely need to get fencing lessons. A sword cane is more an epee or a rapier than a broadsword or a knife.

5. If you have any designs on using a sword cane for defense or offensive purposes, you have to get an original cane from the 18th or 19th century. Those are worth a fortune.

6. With a cheap sword cane, your more likely to break the blade than actually cut your opponent. Quality of the blade is very important.

7. A cheap cane may be more effective as a weapon unsheathed, than sheathed. :lol:


All this leads me to two things
1. This guy had to be a pro at using the cane...even to the point of practicing.
2. There is a very good chance killer was faking his injury and the use of the cane. There is no way that he could be comfortable using a modern sword cane.
3. The killers cane had to be an expensive model (maybe even vintage) for it to be of practical use as a weapon.
4. This murder may have planned months in advanced. Enough time may have been allotted for the killer to get comfortable with using the sword as a weapon.

Kodiak,

Do you know whether Mike Emert owned a firearm?

Kodiak,

Do you know whether Mike Emert owned a firearm?

No, I do not. i have never heard or come across this.

All this leads me to two things
1. This guy had to be a pro at using the cane...even to the point of practicing.
2. There is a very good chance killer was faking his injury and the use of the cane. There is no way that he could be comfortable using a modern sword cane.
3. The killers cane had to be an expensive model (maybe even vintage) for it to be of practical use as a weapon.
4. This murder may have planned months in advanced. Enough time may have been allotted for the killer to get comfortable with using the sword as a weapon.

Is it possible that the killer could have made the cane sword himself?

As I recollect, in the first nine months, the police never revealed what they thought was the murder weapon. In fact, it wasn't mentioned until the 2001 airing of the Unsolved Mysteries episode. They did say, from the early days and weeks after the murder, that they thought the use of the weapon could only be used by a skilled person, and that it was a weapon that a person had to have training in, in order to use it. Once it was revealed that the cane could have been a sword as well, it made perfect sense.

There is no doubt that this killing was planned months ahead. I've always had the impression it was planned at least close to a year in advance. For some reason, I get the impression Mike was followed and watched. I think the killer staged the perfect false identity, the name "Steven", being from San Francisco, the limp, needing a cane. I'm not sure if the east coast accent was real or not. Locals here also theorize the killer was wearing a disguise, such as fake eyebrows, latex prosthetics and nose, colored contacts and eye glasses.

Is it possible that the killer could have made the cane sword himself?

1. He would still need to have a sword of excellent design and quality. Such a sword would still cost a lot. I guess he could have had a fencing sword in his possession from his fencing days at OXford or something. I guess it's possible that he made a cane like tubing for a fencing sword.

He still would need to develop a proper screw and hold to keep the sword in the can sheath. If he doesn't the sword will fall out of the cane each time he lifts the handle.

2. If this guy has that degree of craftsmanship and know how about making weapons, it's even more likely that he is a professional hitman.

3. I would imagine that there are people in the underworld or in spy shops that could produce a quality cane sword. Still would cost lots of green to get one.

There is no doubt that this killing was planned months ahead. I've always had the impression it was planned at least close to a year in advance

I concur.

I don;t know that a psychopath would be that patient to sate his lust for murder.

A psychopath would have chosen another method and another target that required less preparation.

This guy treated this murder like it was a job, rather than a hobby.

I don;t know that a psychopath would be that patient to sate his lust for murder.

A psychopath would have chosen another method and another target that required less preparation.

This guy treated this murder like it was a job, rather than a hobby.

There seems to have been alot of planning and mastery that went into this murder. Normally, I would say it was most likely a contract killing but I highly doubt a hitman would go to these lengths instead of just shooting him. The fact that (if true) he used a disguise, came up with a new identity and had a fake limp, just seems like too much for a hitman to do for a contract killing.

I wonder if maybe the person who killed Mike, knew him? Maybe this person used such a good disguise that Mike didn't recognize him?

Also, I'm sure if this has been discussed but did anyone catch that during the reenactment on UM, when "Mike" is getting his award from his wife for realtor of the year, someone in the back row got up shaking his head as if he didn't agree with it? UM never mentioned it but why put that in the skit if it never really happened and didn't pertain to the case?

Also, I'm sure if this has been discussed but did anyone catch that during the reenactment on UM, when "Mike" is getting his award from his wife for realtor of the year, someone in the back row got up shaking his head as if he didn't agree with it? UM never mentioned it but why put that in the skit if it never really happened and didn't pertain to the case?

Hambone,

I, too, always thought that was odd on why they had put that in the UM script. Right after the crime, police first thought his killer was a rival real estate agent who was jealous or had something against Mike, but that theory was ruled out once police found that he was well liked within the community of his profession.

I was talking to a relative about the case today, she too has followed it since the beginning. She always had the impression that maybe Mike was a spy, possibly CIA.

Hambone,

I, too, always thought that was odd on why they had put that in the UM script. Right after the crime, police first thought his killer was a rival real estate agent who was jealous or had something against Mike, but that theory was ruled out once police found that he was well liked within the community of his profession.

I was talking to a relative about the case today, she too has followed it since the beginning. She always had the impression that maybe Mike was a spy, possibly CIA.

To me, the main reason its odd is because UM never even mentioned an upset coworker who may have thought he deserved the award over Mike or anything like that. I wonder why they even put it in the segment if they weren't even going to mention the possibility of a jealous co-worker or rival realtor?

Refresh my memory, but did you know Mike? Also, what would give your relative the impression that he worked for the CIA?

but I highly doubt a hitman would go to these lengths instead of just shooting him.

The advantage of using the cane-sword over the gun is that if you are searched for a gun, you have the avantage of having your weapon in a concealed and practical place.

The weapon also becomes part of your disguise as a harmless, doddering crippled guy.

For example, say you want to kill a witness in a police jail. You could technically go in as a crippled lawyer and walk into jail and unsheath your weapon and kill your subject. All you would need would be cunning and some fencing skills and you could kill your subject before the police arrived in the jail.


It;s not inconceivable that the killer expected Mike to frisk him at this real estate meeting,

or that the killer expected to encounter police or security BEFORE the murder.

I wonder if there was private security at the house that Mike was killed at?

Refresh my memory, but did you know Mike? Also, what would give your relative the impression that he worked for the CIA?

No, I never knew Mike or know any member of his family personally. Just a local resident, one of many who was deeply disturbed by this gruesome crime ever since.

I really do hope they solve it. I do remember a couple of years ago in the local newspaper, the majority of the detectives were taken off the case due to lack of leads, and the case was being put on part-time status.

My relative got the impression of CIA because nothing was found in his past to suggest trouble. And actually, it's not a far off theory. When I was working at a Seattle insurance agency years ago, I found out from a co-worker that one of my bosses was ex-CIA. I would have never thought it because he had a great sense of humor and was great family man. I had heard he was really covert at the time with the agency. So, really, you never know.

Could these unsolved real estate murders be related to Emert's?

Ester Collins, November 1987, Texas: was found upstairs in a model home, bound and gagged, and had sustained numerous stab wounds...
http://app1.kuhf.org/houston_public_radio-news-display.php?articles_id=1274305051

Lindsay Buziak, 24, February 2008, Victoria, BC,: was found stabbed to death in a home she was showing:
http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=03ec7362-7830-4c40-802d-8e7276ff5393

http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver_island_south/victorianews/news/83354217.html

http://www.remonline.com/home/?p=4874

Pay close attention to this blog article mentioning a "strange buyer" ... it rings close to home of Emert's killer:

http://642blog.ca/2009/02/02/lindsay-buziak-murder-1-year-later-and-still-no-arrest/

Authorities speculate the possibility of Buziak's murder being a professional hit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guc28mH0SOI

**Note: Dateline NBC will air a one hour episode on Bukiak's murder which will air this Summer or Fall 2010.

Could these unsolved real estate murders be related to Emert's?

Ester Collins, November 1987, Texas: was found upstairs in a model home, bound and gagged, and had sustained numerous stab wounds...
http://app1.kuhf.org/houston_public_..._id=1274305051

Lindsay Buziak, 24, February 2008, Victoria, BC,: was found stabbed to death in a home she was showing:
http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpo...d-8e7276ff5393

http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver.../83354217.html

http://www.remonline.com/home/?p=4874

Pay close attention to this blog article mentioning a "strange buyer" ... it rings close to home of Emert's killer:

http://642blog.ca/2009/02/02/lindsay...ill-no-arrest/

Authorities speculate the possibility of Buziak's murder being a professional hit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guc28mH0SOI

**Note: Dateline NBC will air a one hour episode on Bukiak's murder which will air this Summer or Fall 2010.

1. If you view Mike Emert's murder as a "practice" hit. One of those murders may be the actual hit.

2. Keep in mind that ideas are rarely original and often copied in the criminal world. Much like DB Cooper's air-hijacking...I'm sure that there have been others that have had the same idea as Mike Emert's killing.

3. Apparently the execution style hits of real-estate people is not uncommon. Evidenced by several UM segments involving potential hits on real-estate people.

I wonder what;s so special about being in real estate that puts you in contact with organized crime. :confused: :confused:

Property flipping? HUD scums, maybe? condemnation scams?:confused:

My relative got the impression of CIA because nothing was found in his past to suggest trouble. And actually, it's not a far off theory. When I was working at a Seattle insurance agency years ago, I found out from a co-worker that one of my bosses was ex-CIA. I would have never thought it because he had a great sense of humor and was great family man. I had heard he was really covert at the time with the agency. So, really, you never know.

1. If Mike Emert was an active CIA agent..he's in the wrong place.
CIA agents can only operate overseas. Espionage on US soil is the FBI and NSAs job.

2. If Mike Emert was an ex-CIA agent...any murder would be done out of pure revenge.

3. If he;s an active CIA agent, he must be pretty important to risk a foreign intelligence service murdering him on US soil.

4. One could argue that there is a thin line between being a spy/criminal/terrorist.

By nature, if your involved in covert activities...your involved in illegal activity.

5. Why would an intelligence agency choose a method that is so obviously a hit? Something that would alert US intelligence that foreign agents were at work? Wouldn;t they choose something that could look more like an accident or natural causes? Why use a sword cane?

Some interesting articles regarding the real estate business

http://www.housingwatch.com/2010/02/01/are-appraisals-the-new-organized-crime/10

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a902856137&db=all

Keep in mind that ideas are rarely original and often copied in the criminal world. Much like DB Cooper's air-hijacking...I'm sure that there have been others that have had the same idea as Mike Emert's killing.

I totally agree. There were so many hijackings prior to Cooper's, even higher ransoms too. Now I kind of have the same feeling about the Al Kite murder too, maybe it wasn't Mike's killer, but someone who tried to copy him.

I believe this is the premier organized crime figure and family in the Seatle-King County region around the time Mike's murder took place.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Colacurcio,_Sr.

Don;t hold me to this but, I got a message from someone that Frank's organization was investigated for the murder of a real estate agent. I want to research this though.

I believe this is the premier organized crime figure and family in the Seatle-King County region around the time Mike's murder took place.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Colacurcio,_Sr.

Don;t hold me to this but, I got a message from someone that Frank's organization was investigated for the murder of a real estate agent. I want to research this though.

I'm a local Italian, and I have never heard of him before. Interesting.
I also created a Mike Emert post today on Websleuths.com. I was surprised that nothing had been previously posted about his case. Perhaps this can generate more leads and any other crime related connections from across the country:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106029

Yes, this is a very disturbing case. Do you think the killer could be traced by the "sword cane"? Those things are not something that the layman possesses, and are pretty rare. I think this guy may have purchased it at a pawn shop or antique store in the area. There is not a big market for sword cane's, so you would think it would be pretty easy to trace? I also think the killer put on the facade of being an old, handicapped man; which in reality he was much younger and healthier than he portrayed. I think he may have worn a wig, prosthetics, maybe latex masking to conceal his true identity. Also I think him not trying to conceal Mike's identity is very telling, a serial killer or average whacko, would probably have stolen mike's identification out of his wallet so that no one would know who's body was in the house. A hitman typically needs to have someone know that the person is dead to confirm the hit; to show it's the right target. You would think that someone looking deeply into Mike's background and business dealings would have found something shady, though wouldn't they? Stuff comes out eventually, and even if an attempt is made to hid/destroy evidence, there's always something somewhere, no matter how minute that can blow a case like this wide open. Something doesn't add up on this one, there's a piece of the puzzle missing somewhere, and SOMEONE had to have seen this guy, either with Mike, driving his car, or dumping off his car; especially in so public of a place? And what of the car? The guy had to have left some kind of evidence behind in the vehicle such as hair, fingerprints, fibers, blood ect? Especially if he was injured or bleeding from the struggle and had Mike's blood on him? Did the police say what, if any evidence was found in that vehicle? It had to have been processed by the police and dusted for prints and such. I definitely think this case can be solved, especially if an eyewitness come forward!

Did the police say what, if any evidence was found in that vehicle? It had to have been processed by the police and dusted for prints and such. I definitely think this case can be solved, especially if an eyewitness come forward!
The police have never released what (or if) they found trace evidence from the killer inside the vehicle. From Mastermind's post above about the Seattle crime family organization being investigated in the death of a real estate agent, and Mary Beth Emert's 2008 interview comment about Mike having, "... a few interesting people along the way, and a few interesting transactions at that, " tells me that the police may have a good lead to solving this crime.

Do you think the killer could be traced by the "sword cane"?

Yes, the cut marks can be matched to the cane's blade. If it's a vintage weapon, the style might be very unique.

Problem is:

1. If a hitman is responsible, he may have the weapon locked in an offsite "weapons stash". I doubt searching his home would produce a weapon.

2. The weapon may have been acquired via smuggling or theft.

3. At this point, the weapon may have been sold several times over.

I discussed this case with my husband who is a security expert and has to deal with how to stop bad guys all the time. He seems to think that the "sword cane" is a crappy weapon, and that the killer using it would elude to him NOT being a professional killer or hitman. These type of guys are "clean" meaning that they don't make messes they just go for the clean fast kill and be done with it. They go for areas and use items that do the most damage with the least amount of effort. Mike's killer was messy, and used the "overkill" method of stabbing Mike 20 times, a professional killer would not do this. If this guy was a hit man or pro he would have just shot Mike in the head, clean, easy and over with, but this guy it would indicate wanted to inflict as much pain as possible and wasn't going for the "quick kill" method. He wanted and knew Mike would put up a fight. This would also indicated that the killer had anger or animosity toward Mike, some kind of rage that he couldn't control and I think also got some kind of "thrill" out of it. My husband said the guy was most likely a psycho, especially if Mike eluded to him being a "weird guy".

Glad to see this case getting some attention.

Two observations:

1) Everyone seems to be taking it for fact that a so-called "sword cane" was used. The segment doesn't say that. No source that I can find says that. An officer interviewed in the UM segment says it's not beyond his ability to believe, or words to that effect, that a sword cane was used. Since no weapon was recovered, other than the fact that the murder weapon was a sharp, knife-like instrument, we really have no way of knowing what it was.

2) Hambone2421 said this in a previous post:

[The segment] stated that after killing Mike, the killer drove Mike's car back to the meeting place so that he could get into his own car.

The segment absolutely does not say that, at least not the version I have. The segment does strongly imply that the killer and Emert went off to look at the house together in Emert's car: portions of the reenactment strongly suggest this is what happens (you hear the person playing Emert say, "Why don't you hop in and we'll go look at it?" or something like that, though you never see the two of them in the car together). But the article (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/157331_oldmurder20.html) linked at the beginning of this thread, in the very first post, says this (the emphasis is mine):

Mike Emert's black Cadillac Escalade was found abandoned at the Kirkland Park Place shopping center, most likely driven there by the killer.

"Most likely" isn't definitely. A later article (http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4053681.html), from 2006, linked earlier in this thread, provides this additional detail:

The second person was seen Jan. 3 or Jan. 4th about 3 p.m. at the Kirkland Post Office. He was walking away from a black Cadillac Escalade, which was parked in the post office lot. The man is white, 40 to 50 years-old, about 5 feet 6 inches, with a medium build, and tan complexion. We was wearing a short, dark jacket, light khaki pants, and had a brown, wooden cane. The driver of the car was a white male with gray hair.

There are a couple of issues here. First of all, whoever provided this information was apparently uncertain of the date. This is important, because Emert was killed on the 4th, not the 3rd. So, if whoever saw what he saw on the 3rd, rather than the 4th, he may not even have seen Emert's Cadillac. I'm sure Mike Emert did not own the world's only black Cadillac Escalade.

Of course, this witness apparently saw someone matching the description we have from Emert himself of his killer, the important detail being the cane.Then again, that detail has been highly publicized; how reliable is the person who gave this statement? What is its source? Things we need to consider, because...

There is, apparently, a considerable degree of probability that Emert drove to his own murder site, and his killer drove his SUV BACK to the location where they originally met. Surely, the police have their reasons for thinking this, but it would be nice to know what they were. Were Emert's keys found in the Escalade when it was found? If they were, that basically proves the killer drove Emert's SUV after he murdered him. Were Emert's keys never found? That could imply that the killer then drove Emert's SUV... but then again, maybe not. Maybe he took them for the same reason he took Emert's watch, wallet, and wedding ring, and maybe that reason was simply to give the false appearance of a burglary attempt, or, as Mastermind earlier suggested, if this was indeed a hit, the keys were taken along with the wallet, ring, and watch as a way to prove to whomever ordered the hit that Emert was in fact dead.

The point I am leading to is this: if this guy is such a clever killer, and in most respects, it seems like he is, isn't it a manifestly bad idea to take Emert's car to the murder site? I suppose, on the one hand, by taking Emert's vehicle, the killer prevented having his own vehicle seen near the scene. On the other hand, part of the point of casing possible murder sites the day before, presumably, was to learn not only their layout but also their location. The killer gains the knowledge of the location of the house where he will commit the murder, and then doesn't use it? This is important because taking the victim's vehicle to the murder site means the killer then has to return with Emert's vehicle to the parking lot where they met, or close to it, which in turn slows the killer's escape. Not only that, but, by taking Emert's vehicle, the killer now has to get into and out of his victim's car, which he then had to leave behind: this provides multiple opportunities for leaving trace evidence, especially on the return trip, in which he must have some blood from Emert and possibly some of his own still on his clothes. This, after the killer was so careful not to leave trace evidence at the murder scene.

Most versions of this story seem to agree that Emert's was the vehicle taken to the murder scene, but none say that this was definitively the case. What was the evidence that led to this conclusion? How does the theory of the case differ (if at all) if it was the killer's vehicle, rather than Emert's that was driven to the scene? It's the lack of a definitive statement anywhere - Emert's car was definitely driven to the murder scene - that makes me suspicious.

This seems too elaborate to be a mob hit - slow developing, disguise, etc. They are usually pretty quick in how they work.

The segment absolutely does not say that, at least not the version I have. The segment does strongly imply that the killer and Emert went off to look at the house together in Emert's car: portions of the reenactment strongly suggest this is what happens (you hear the person playing Emert say, "Why don't you hop in and we'll go look at it?" or something like that, though you never see the two of them in the car together). But the article (http://www.seattlepi.com/local/157331_oldmurder20.html) linked at the beginning of this thread, in the very first post, says this (the emphasis is mine):


Farina said it in the new version. It aired a few weeks back. I know your looking for definitive proof and someone actually stating for a fact that this happened but the fact that they met in a parking lot and drove in Emert's car to the murder scene only to have Emert's car end up right back at the parking lot where they met is pretty clear cut.

Farina said it in the new version. It aired a few weeks back. I know your looking for definitive proof and someone actually stating for a fact that this happened but the fact that they met in a parking lot and drove in Emert's car to the murder scene only to have Emert's car end up right back at the parking lot where they met is pretty clear cut.

Maybe, but I would stil like to know on what basis they think they know this, and whether or not Emert's keys were ever found. Hard to imagine that the killer could have climbed back into Emert's SUV after the murder without leaving blood behind, minimally.

Thanks for clarifying on the question of the segment; I forget the Farina ones even exist.

Maybe, but I would stil like to know on what basis they think they know this, and whether or not Emert's keys were ever found. Hard to imagine that the killer could have climbed back into Emert's SUV after the murder without leaving blood behind, minimally.

Thanks for clarifying on the question of the segment; I forget the Farina ones even exist.

Well, if he did use the sword cane as has been speculated, he may have stabbed Mike at a distance and had no blood on his person. I'm sure he got some on him at some point since the body was dragged down the hall, but maybe he had a change of clothes with him or maybe he stashed some clothes there and washed up after he killed him. But I do agree that it seems odd that not a single drop of blood was found in the Escalade. At least, none that we know of.

1) Everyone seems to be taking it for fact that a so-called "sword cane" was used. The segment doesn't say that. No source that I can find says that. An officer interviewed in the UM segment says it's not beyond his ability to believe, or words to that effect, that a sword cane was used. Since no weapon was recovered, other than the fact that the murder weapon was a sharp, knife-like instrument, we really have no way of knowing what it was.

1. Knives and rapiers give distinctly different wounds.

Most likely the reason they mentioned the sword cane was because the wounds were similar to a rapier weapon. There was probably a deep puncture style wound similar to an attack you would

You can also tell knife wounds by the marks the hilt of a knife makes when it strikes.

I imagin there were no such hilt marks on the stab-like wounds. Hence the blades hilt was much further away from the blade. Hence the blade was longer than the average knife.

In some of the slash like wounds, they probably noticed that the slices were extremely thin. Evidence of a fencing style weapon.

2. Why else would they say "strange weapon"? :confused:

What's so strange about your run of the butcher's knife?:confused:

3. if this guy used the knife to attack Mike, there's more of a chance that he's not crippled.

If he's a perfectly good mobile individual....why bother carrying the cane to begin with.

4. The fact that he didn;t leave the murder weapon, lends to the possibility that he took the weapon with him.

This seems too elaborate to be a mob hit - slow developing, disguise, etc. They are usually pretty quick in how they work.

I think you might need to read up more on mob hits.

Emert's keys were ever found. Hard to imagine that the killer could have climbed back into Emert's SUV after the murder without leaving blood behind, minimally.

A better question would be whether there was a blood trail leading from the house.

I think you might need to read up more on mob hits.


I disagree with you here Mastermind. I'd be willing to wager i've read more about mob hits than anyone on this board and I am of the opinion this is far too elaborate for a mob hit. At least an LCN organized crime hit. Also taking into account with the robbery of the victim, a very big no-no in mob sanctioned hits, I think it’s highly improbably that this was a mob hit. Also I’m of the understanding that LCN isn’t operating in the Pac Northwest.

As I’ve stated I don’t think was a professional “hit” at all. I think there’s no evidence of it anywhere. Neither in the actions of the killer nor in the victim’s background. I will also say I think the idea of a “practice hit” is without merit. Why would a hitman practice such a particular method of killing someone? Just in case he has to murder a real estate agent in the future?

Also taking into account with the robbery of the victim, a very big no-no in mob

1. There have been countless drug and mob hits were the victims wallet was taken to make it look like a robbery occurred. Some hits even involved the victims house being ransacked to make it look like a burgularly.

most homicide detectives will often jump to robbery if the victims wallet or case is missing. A fact that many criminals have come to realize.

2. What harm is there of robbing the victim? It;s not like he;s going to miss him money? Nor is there going to be an evidence to examine if it's in your own possesion.

3. In a hit, you usually take something from the victim to verify identity. Either a watch, driver;s license, wedding band, etc.

Murder hits, like bank robberies, and terrorist attacks can take a lot of time in preparation.

When money is involved, your naturally going to take time to make sure it;s right.

If your looking just to kill someone for psychotic pleasure, are your really going to waste all that time planning off someone when you could easily kill a prostitute, or taxi driver co-ed right away?

What? Have we stumbled across the "sword-cane real estate serial" killer?
A serial killer with TWO signatures???:rolleyes:

4. Not all mob hits involve professionals. Some organized crime hits have been done using regular street thugs.

One hit on a woman involved mobsters getting crack addicts from the street to rape and murder a woman.

Originally Posted by Mastermind
I think you might need to read up more on mob hits.


I disagree with you here Mastermind. I'd be willing to wager i've read more about mob hits than anyone on this board and I am of the opinion this is far too elaborate for a mob hit. At least an LCN organized crime hit. Also taking into account with the robbery of the victim, a very big no-no in mob sanctioned hits,

The only book you need to read about mob-hits is Philip Carlo(sp?) bio of the "The Iceman"

That;s all you need to know about hitmen

I assume you;ve read about it.

I assume you read the chapters about Prongee(sp?) and his experiments?

The only book you need to read about mob-hits is Philip Carlo(sp?) bio of the "The Iceman"

That;s all you need to know about hitmen

I assume you;ve read about it.

I assume you read the chapters about Prongee(sp?) and his experiments?

Yes I have read that book and I’ve noticed you mention Philip Carlo before. I’m being polite when I say that I consider him to have very little credibility.

Philip Carlo is, in my opinion, a writer more concerned with salacious storytelling than fact checking. He has written biographies of two of the most notorious liars associated with the LCN: Iceman Kuklinski and Anthony Gaspipie Casso. He took both men at their word and never alluded to the fact that several of their claims have never been verified by any investigating agencies. Even more egregious is that he presents, as fact, several instances that have been proven false by FBI reports, confessions, & wire-tap recordings. I don’t believe a word of that specific story you mention as Richard Kuklinski was almost certainly a pathological liar and made up a considerable amount of the murders he took credit for. His original “biographer” (who introduced the world to Iceman on HBO) was Park Deitz, who has the same reputation as Kuklinski for having an aversion to the truth.

If you think that’s the only book you need to read about hitmen, I would highly recommend the following:
I heard You Paint Houses by Charles Brandt (amazingly researched study of hitman Francis “The Irishman” Sheeran)
Donnie Brasco by Charles Brandt & Joe Pistone
Murder Machine by Gene Mustain & Jerry Capeci (chilling account of the Roy DeMeo crew of hitters)
Wiseguy by Nicholas Pileggi (basis for Goodfellas – great ccount of the low-level mafia button men)
The Last Mafioso by Ovid Demaris (about Jimmy “The Weasel” Fratianno)
The Last Godfather: The Rise and Fall of Joey Massino by Simone Crittle

These are a few of the better books I’ve read that would answer your questions and help shed a little light on the actual why's and how's of LCN mob hits.



1. There have been countless drug hits were the victims wallet was taken to make it look like a robbery occurred.

OK, but we were talking about Mob hits right?


2. What harm is there of robbing the victim? It;s not like he;s going to miss him money? Nor is there going to be an evidence to examine if it's in your own possesion.

I’ve never understood why they don’t keep the money and I’m sure some hitter some time somewhere HAS kept the money, but I’d bet everything I own that no mob hit man has ever gotten a contract to kill someone, killed them, and then taken their ATM card to the bank and tried to withdraw funds with a shirt over their face. They’d be killed by their higher ups for bringing so much potential heat to themselves.

I don’t understand the third part of your question.



3. In a hit, you usually take something from the victim to verify identity. Either a watch, driver;s license, wedding band, etc.

No. You don't actually. All that would do is potentially incriminate you should anything not go the way you planned. What you do is leave the body in a public place or do it in a public setting so people know the guy is dead. Read "I Heard You Paint Houses" for a specific description of this. And think about it, if a pro hitman did take his victim's wallet and ID...doens't that make it harder for the police to publicly announce who they've found dead? Thus making it difficult for your pro hit man to fufill his contract?


Murder hits, like bank robberies, and terrorist attacks can take a lot of time in preparation.

When money is involved, your naturally going to take time to make sure it;s right.

What do you mean? Mob hits aren't done for money.

If your looking just to kill someone for psychotic pleasure, are your really going to waste all that time planning off someone when you could easily kill a prostitute, or taxi driver co-ed right away?

That makes zero sense. By that rationale only prostitutes and cab drivers would be victims of serial killers. Why didn’t Ted Bundy kill prostitutes? Why didn’t Rafael Resendez? BTK? EAR/ONS? Richard Ramirez? All of them had their systematic ways of going after victims and it didn’t involved the so-called “disposable people”. I don’t know why he has this particular way of killing, why he hasn’t killed prostitutes…maybe he has who knows, but that doesn’t automatically negate the serial killer theory.


What? Have we stumbled across the "sword-cane real estate serial" killer?
A serial killer with TWO signatures???

4. Not all mob hits involve professionals. Some organized crime hits have been done using regular street thugs.


Sorry, missed this one.

That may be true but they would NEVER use an outsider and relative nobody like Kuklinski to murder (as he claims): Paul Castellano, Carmine Galante, & James Hoffa. Nor would Roy DeMeo have ever met with Kuklinski (if he even knew him, which has never been verified) when DeMeo was murdered as he was on the run and paranoid of meeting with anyone.

I just felt like I had to respond to the whole "mob hitman" thing but I am taking this sooooooo far off topic and I will stop with all the mob stuff.

So if not all mob hits are done by professionals then what are you saying? Was the guy a pro hit man or was he a street thug? Why would anyone hire a killer to kill Mr. Emert? Where is the evidence that he was involved in anything requiring an open contract for his murder?

I still say too elaborate to be a mob hit.

One thing I was thinking - it sounds like Emert was a little bit "hinky" about the mysterious man. Had Emert been involved with some shady dealings, he likely would have been feeling some heat and avoided meeting his killer again. Normally, people who are mixed up in stuff can sense when their actions have made them vulnerable, and they will act accordingly. Emert demonstrated no self-preservation awareness prior to the attack, despite having his hackles up. A man in the crosshairs doesn't do that, imo.

This may just be some bizarre, random killing by a nut bar who enjoyed the ruse - and those crimes are the toughest to solve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
4. Not all mob hits involve professionals. Some organized crime hits have been done using regular street thugs.

Sorry, missed this one.

That may be true but they would NEVER use an outsider and relative nobody like Kuklinski to murder (as he claims): Paul Castellano, Carmine Galante, & James Hoffa. Nor would Roy DeMeo have ever met with Kuklinski (if he even knew him, which has never been verified) when DeMeo was murdered as he was on the run and paranoid of meeting with anyone.

I just felt like I had to respond to the whole "mob hitman" thing but I am taking this sooooooo far off topic and I will stop with all the mob stuff.

So if not all mob hits are done by professionals then what are you saying? Was the guy a pro hit man or was he a street thug? Why would anyone hire a killer to kill Mr. Emert? Where is the evidence that he was involved in anything requiring an open contract for his murder?

The majority of what you wrote above makes no sense.

I would answer it, but it would be going way off tangent.

IM, corky to continue the discussion.

I still say too elaborate to be a mob hit.

A mob hit is elaborate as it needs to be to get the job done and ensure that nobody is to blame for it.

Just like a bank robbery is as elaborate as it needs to be.
(how many elaborate bank robberies have we seen in UM. :rolleyes: )

Just like a terrorist attack is as elaborate as it needs to be.
(I'm sure we all wish the 9-11 attacks were much "simplified". :( RIP)

This may just be some bizarre, random killing by a nut bar who enjoyed the ruse - and those crimes are the toughest to solve.


Too skilled.

1.This guy understood how to properly use the sword cane
2. he knew how about how to deal with trace evidence.
3. he was bold enough to attempt to attack a man like Mike this way face to face. Smart enough to come with this plan.
4.

This guys killed multiple times.

The only way I believe he is a "random" but bar is if he was a serial killer that morphed.

A mob hit is elaborate as it needs to be to get the job done and ensure that nobody is to blame for it.

Just like a bank robbery is as elaborate as it needs to be.
(how many elaborate bank robberies have we seen in UM. :rolleyes: )

( RIP)

Could you please cite a credible source of another mafia hit that involved such a detailed ruse? You seem to be great at dismissing what everyone says, without supporting your cause.

Too skilled.

1.This guy understood how to properly use the sword cane
2. he knew how about how to deal with trace evidence.
3. he was bold enough to attempt to attack a man like Mike this way face to face. Smart enough to come with this plan.
4.

This guys killed multiple times.

The only way I believe he is a "random" but bar is if he was a serial killer that morphed.

Nowhere did I say that the person didn't kill multiple times. No need to contradict what isn't there.

You can disagree that it was bizarre.

When I said random, I was speaking to motive. The guy may have randomly picked Emert for no good reason, and executed his plan. None of that excludes being bold, smart or skilled with a sword cane.

One thing I was thinking - it sounds like Emert was a little bit "hinky" about the mysterious man. Had Emert been involved with some shady dealings, he likely would have been feeling some heat and avoided meeting his killer again. Normally, people who are mixed up in stuff can sense when their actions have made them vulnerable, and they will act accordingly. Emert demonstrated no self-preservation awareness prior to the attack, despite having his hackles up. A man in the crosshairs doesn't do that, imo.

I'm sorry I may have misinterpreted that:

1. A lot of people are hit with no inkling that they are under danger. For all we know things may have been copacetic between Mike and his "partners". There may have been a "cleaning house" being done were Mike had to go because he simply knew too much about the "business"

2. If money laundering or a real estate scam is at play, technically mike is on the "money side" of things. It;s not like he;s meeting with criminal element constantly or out in the street. His exposure may simply be meeting one guy who brings in money each and every week or gives instructions each and every week. Something that;s similar to his normal business dealings.
Mike may not even have the slightest conception of what the danger is. he may be that oblivious and naive.

3. Mike may not be involved in anything illegal, at all. He may just be a person who may have had damaging information that he himself was unaware of. He may have been "collateral damage".

4. It's not out of the question. that when meeting with people --that Mike came armed!

It may explain the whole reason why the sword-can ruse was used in the first place.

Being armed would give Mike a sense of confidence in his dealings.

A gun would also give Mike a chance to frisk anybody that

If the killer came in with only a cane, he can leave with a much better weapon for defense by stealing Mikes gun from him.

5. Mike may have mentioned to people this guys to everyone as protective measure Sortof a

"I am going to meet with this strange guy!. "Hint, Hint" Maybe you guy might want to check on me or look into this guy should I disappear or something. "Hint, Hint"." yes, I'm really going to see this "weird guy", who might do something to me.

A sort of less than subtle warning system. :D

6. Weird does not necessarily equal threatening. Just because Mike found the guy weird does not mean that he found him dangerous. After all, he did decide to keep the appointment. If Mike felt real danger, he could have re-scheduled or told the guy to get lost.

7. The beauty of this ruse is may be that Mike would be expecting a bulking Luca Brazi type to come gun him down in his bedroom.

But instead here is this crippled old guy with a can who can barely move.
Not exactly the most threating type.

Hence the genius in this plan.

That may be true but they would NEVER use an outsider and relative nobody like Kuklinski to murder (as he claims): Paul Castellano, Carmine Galante, & James Hoffa. Nor would Roy DeMeo have ever met with Kuklinski (if he even knew him, which has never been verified) when DeMeo was murdered as he was on the run and paranoid of meeting with anyone.

1. Kuhlkinski had an outstanding reputation in the underworld as being one of the best. Whether they knew him by name or not, his actions were very well known.
If you needed a difficult job done, Kulhkinski was the one to do it.

2. Mobsters, terrorists, drug dealers and espionage organizations use outsiders all the time. Where do you think the term "contract killer" came from?

3. As I'm sure you've read, mob organizations work on buffer system.
Person A hires Person B who hires Person C who hires Person D who hires Persone E to do the actual killing. This prevents law enforcement from being able to tie Person E to either Persons A, B, or C. Would you agree that there is a more than even chance that Persons A & B don;t know who E is? and vice versa?

In the mob it works like this
1.Boss gives vague order to Underboss that Mike Emert needs to "go"
2. Underboss verifies by saying "so he really needs to "go" somplace"
3. Underboss tells one of his lt that mike needs to "go"
4. Lt tells another lt that mike needs to be hit
5. Lt that takes the job, orders soldier to murder Mike Emert.(the lt may say that it needs to be someone not connected with us to do th hit.
6. Soldier comes up with a plan
7. Part of this soldiers plan may involve hiring a hitman form ...I dunno, maybe Las vegas.
8. The hitman himself may actually be the only one who is involved in the actual planning and murder of Mike Emert.

all throughout this process....none of the people at the top of the chain have any idea about how the murder is going to take place...much less who is actually committing the murder.

Nor would they care either, as long as Mike is dead and the police aren;t knocking at their door, the probably wouldn;t care if a 5 year old kid murdered Mike.

4. A disadvantage of using your own men in a hit, is that the person you hit may know these people. Your target is more likely to be cautious if he sees "Gambino henchmen" walking onto the steps of him home.

But if a stranger is used, the target would have no reason to suspect someone that he doesn;t know. There is a better chance of getting a drop on the victim.

You know if you really think about it...

1. Serial killers are not really known to use bizzare methods or weapons.to kill people.

For all his bravado and ingenuity..the Zodiac Killer pretty much just shot and stabbed people. Nothing unique about that.

Son of Sam killed people with a .44 calibre gun.

EAR/ONS pretty much did the standard rape and murder.

The Ohio Prostitute killer used knifes and bludgeoned.

BTK used the standard weapons to kill his victims. Not even the rope thing is that unusual.

Most serial killers save their imagination for other things like letters, signatures, codes, victim type, or costume (zodiac).

2. on the other hand, you tend to see really bizarre murder weapons and deaths in conspiratorial or organized crime murders.

All of these methods have been used in confirmed and apparent conspuratorial /organized crime killings.

crossbows, electrocution in bath, people dumped in acid, grenades, car bombs, cyanide poisining, sabatoge, gas leaks, tiger maulings, being buried alive, radiation poisining, pillow smothering, poisonous snakes, being eating by rates, slow starvation, strangled with piano wire. etc.etc.

Kulkinski used several bizarre methods to committ murders.
There are several instances were he used things other than a standard gun and knife attack.

3. We tend to forget that mobsters themselves are capable of untold cruelty when it comes to killing their victims.
They have never shied away at finding the most painful way for someone to die.
It is not beyond them to want to toruture or even taunt victims. There have been cases of mob killings were victims were mutilitated, stripped naked, even defecated on , to ensure a humiliating death.

Perhaps whoever ordered Mike Emert dead, wanted know that Mike would be shocked at seeing that he was outsmarted. He may have also wanted something more painful than a regular knife or gun.

Being punctured by a sword cane has to rank pretty high on the pain scale. :(

4. Mobsters are also not beyond sending their own little messages.
Perhaps the location that Mike Emert was killed in is a subtle message.
Perhaps the use of the can and the manner of death was a "sleeping with the fishes" type message.

Colacurcio Sr. died this last week.

http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/422783.html

The Ohio Prostitute killer used knifes and bludgeoned.

There is nothing to suggest that those murders were the work of a single killer, save for the occupation of the victims.


As for most serial killers not using methods or weapons that are "bizarre", I suppose that really depends on what you define as such. I find dismemberment to be extremely bizarre, but there are multiple instances of serial murders involving dismemberment.

To be honest, Mastermind, I find it odd that when others post about "normal" or "typical" criminal behavior, you are often the first to challenge those assertions with the exception to the rule (whether actual, theoretical, or hypothetical--sometimes wildly so). When you do likewise, however, it seems you feel that your thoughts on the matter have a specialized authority.

I certainly don't say this to offend you and I sincerely hope that I haven't, but as far as I am aware, none of us on the forum are by profession criminologists. I think delving into the very finest intricacies of criminal behavior when we are not extensively and professionally educated in the area can sometimes be more an exercise in futility than a productive enterprise.

Originally Posted by Mastermind
You know if you really think about it...

1. Serial killers are not really known to use bizzare methods or weapons.to kill people.

For all his bravado and ingenuity..the Zodiac Killer pretty much just shot and stabbed people. Nothing unique about that.

Son of Sam killed people with a .44 calibre gun.

EAR/ONS pretty much did the standard rape and murder.

The Ohio Prostitute killer used knifes and bludgeoned.

BTK used the standard weapons to kill his victims. Not even the rope thing is that unusual.

Most serial killers save their imagination for other things like letters, signatures, codes, victim type, or costume (zodiac).

2. on the other hand, you tend to see really bizarre murder weapons and deaths in conspiratorial or organized crime murders.


Your whole premise is base on semantics. You think Mike Emert was killed with a sword cane and that it is an unusual weapon. That's fine. But to use that conjecture as proof positive that it was done as an organized crime "hit" is...faulty?

You make the quite bizarre claim that the methods utilized by certain serial killers aren't "unusual" and are "standard" compared to organized crime murders. To support that specious claim you dismiss BTK's tying of a noose around the neck of a 12 year old girl, looping the rope over a pipe, then masturbating as he yanks it up and down, torturing and murdering the poor girl slowly, so that she isn’t killed immediately (or even fairly quickly) as in a gallows hanging rather so she strangles and suffocates slowly and under her own weight, as "[not]…that unusual". This is of course after he has already murdered her mother, father, and her two younger brothers by putting plastic bags over their heads and suffocating them to death.

I mean…I don’t even know how to respond to a statement like that.

Then to contrast that against "really bizarre murder weapons and deaths in conspiratorial or organized crime murders" you state:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
All of these methods have been used in confirmed and apparent conspuratorial /organized crime killings.

crossbows, electrocution in bath, people dumped in acid, grenades, car bombs, cyanide poisining, sabatoge, gas leaks, tiger maulings, being buried alive, radiation poisining, pillow smothering, poisonous snakes, being eating by rates, slow starvation, strangled with piano wire. etc.etc.


I will state it again, Philip Carlo is an unreliable writer who repeated verbatim, with little to no verification of, the claims of patholiogical liar Richard Kuklinksi. There are no, zero, confirmed organized crime murders done by: snakes, eaten by rats (!!!), slow starvation, radiation poisoning. I am also highly doubtful that there are any that have been done by: tiger mauling, dumped in acid, crossbows. If you have a source, anything other than the words of Richard Kuklinski and Philip Carlo, I will look at it and perhaps revise that. However there are many many many many documented instances of organized crime killings taking place by "pretty much just (shooting) and stab(bing) people" (your words).

But your whole claim, Mastermind, again is based upon semantics. You're relying too much on your own opinion, on your conjecture of what happens most of the time, on your assumption of what we've all forgotten or neglected to consider, and not enough on factual evidence.

There is no evidence that Mike Emert was involved in anything that would result in an organized crime killing. The police have researched and investigated those possibilities and have come up with nothing o support that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
3. We tend to forget that mobsters themselves are capable of untold cruelty when it comes to killing their victims.
They have never shied away at finding the most painful way for someone to die. It is not beyond them to want to toruture or even taunt victims. There have been cases of mob killings were victims were mutilitated, stripped naked, even defecated on , to ensure a humiliating death.

I’m unsure who this “We” is that seems to have forgotten…but I haven't forgotten that mobsters are occasionally capable of horrific cruelty. Absolutely that happens. William "Action" Jackson was impaled on an industrial meat hook, impaled through his anus, and left there for days. A man's head was put into a vice and squeezed. The DeMeo crew profiled in Murder Machine had a patented assembly line approach to killing people.
You are incorrect, however, in your assertion that “they have never shied away at finding the most painful way for someone to die”. That statement is flat out wrong. There are scores of killings in the OC/mafia underworld in which someone’s close friend, lifelong co-hort, or even family member, was called upon to dispatch the victim. These right here are instances when they quite literally “shied away” from torture or from making it any worse than it had to be for the victim. I would contend the vast majority of murders in the OC/mafia underworld would be considered “just business” and involve none of what you specified above.


All that being said, including my acknowledgement on the few items I agree with, simply stating your opinion that Mike Emert was killed in what you consider a bizarre manner or with a bizarre weapon does absolutely nothing to prove that Mike Emert had any ties to anything that would cause someone to torture, murder, and steal from him.

I will defend Mastermind here as I feel it needs to be done. Mastermind was merely stating his opinion, he never stated any of what he said was necessarily fact, he was merely stating his opinion. To argue that he could not state his opinion on certain psychological issues because he is not a criminologist borders on the absurd. That would be like saying that none of us can sit here and be arm chair detectives because we have never been actual police detectives before. It is one thing to disagree with Mastermind as I myself did not agree with all of his points, but to sit there and slap him down all because he was expressing an opinion in a field you felt he was not 'qualified' to express his opinion in is laughable. Again, that would be like saying you or me are not qualified to express opinions on any case because we were not previously homicide detectives.

I will defend Mastermind here as I feel it needs to be done. Mastermind was merely stating his opinion, he never stated any of what he said was necessarily fact, he was merely stating his opinion. To argue that he could not state his opinion on certain psychological issues because he is not a criminologist borders on the absurd. That would be like saying that none of us can sit here and be arm chair detectives because we have never been actual police detectives before. It is one thing to disagree with Mastermind as I myself did not agree with all of his points, but to sit there and slap him down all because he was expressing an opinion in a field you felt he was not 'qualified' to express his opinion in is laughable. Again, that would be like saying you or me are not qualified to express opinions on any case because we were not previously homicide detectives.

I think delving into the very finest intricacies of criminal behavior when we are not extensively and professionally educated in the area can sometimes be more an exercise in futility than a productive enterprise.

Emphasis obviously added.

I thought it was rather apparent, but nowhere did I claim that Mastermind, or any other member of this forum, should be barred from expressing an opinion. If you had read my words carefully, I believe there's a great likelihood you would have come to a similar conclusion.

I feel that his statements are incredibly subjective, and to apparently present them as fact is rather irresponsible. Serial killers are not really known to use bizarre methods or weapons to kill people conveys something far different than I think serial killers don't really use bizarre methods or weapons to kill people. As Corky said, his entire argument is based on semantics.

I feel that his statements are incredibly subjective, and to apparently present them as fact is rather irresponsible. Serial killers are not really known to use bizarre methods or weapons to kill people conveys something far different than I think serial killers don't really use bizarre methods or weapons to kill people. As Corky said, his entire argument is based on semantics.

This.

I got it from the first that it wasn't a questioning of his capabilities to post here but his questioning of his capabilities to pass some opinions as fact.

With this case, it's clear this doesn't fit the profile of a mob hit. There was too much passion involved.

I'm not pulling a gay angle - and I don't think that's what it was - but I do think it's possible that the suspect felt slighted in a weird way by Mike Emert months or years before and decided to kill him. Emert, being a reasonably normal person, probably didn't remember the guy. There are weirdo creeps like that who exist. But the suspect seems like a homo-in-denial type. Of course, there isn't much to support this other than all other likely possibilities between drugs and a mob hit have been excluded, and the way Emert was killed by another man seemed strangely personal - except that Emert never came off as a weird guy, so it'd then be one of those things where the suspect, maybe a customer at one point, felt slighted by Emert for disregarding his feelings on something, a crap closing, refusal of a homosexual advance, or something that normal people would shrug off.

Here it is:

- the disguise the suspect had on, and the general deception of baiting Emert involved a lot of thought and planning. That means obsession.
- he stabs him with the sword on his cane. That's very personal and vindictive. A "normal" guy in this situation would just shoot him and leave.
- he puts the victim in a shower to wash away evidence. That hints either he follows true crime either in Law & Order fiction or is aware of DNA. Maybe he fixates on killing people (probably) and thus is aware of DNA. Whatever the case, he decides to wash away evidence. It's not easy to drag a body. There is, again, a type of unnecessary expenditure of energy that implies a type of personal vendetta, probably over something very petty, or an infatuation (maybe homosexual).

Based on the unusual nature, planning, execution, and lack of apparent motive of the case, the suspect just strikes me as a creep who lives in his own world, felt slighted by Emert over something totally trivial and insignificant, fixated on that for a long duration of time, and meticulously and obsessively planned to bait him in a remote house just to kill him.

The way he went about it was very cowardly as a personality, but brazen in execution, and thus tells me he escaped under the radar with police because only the suspect, not anyone else, noticed an issue.

Mike Emert's murder was solved back in 2011. The killer, Gary Krueger, died (age 62) in March 2010 while fleeing from a botched home invasion where he pistol whipped the homeowner and stole a boat to escape.

He had started out with a good life. He joined the navy as a teen and then volunteered for the marines, from which he was honorably discharged in 1969.

That same year, he became a cop and it all seems to go downhill from there. He and another officer beat a man in a police garage. In 1974, the man was awarded $3,000 by a superior court jury.

Then in 1977, he shot and killed a suspect, who he had sitting in the front seat of his patrol car, because he said the guy pulled a knife on him. That was determined to be justified, but it seems fishy to me, especially considering the earlier 2 on 1 beating of another person in his custody.

He retired in 1980 and embarked on a career of felony armed robberies, bank robberies, misdemeanor thefts, and a home invasion robbery.

Lots more info in the link below. Mike Emert is not the only real estate agent this guy murdered. There's also a link to an article stating that at one point, the perp had actually worked in real estate himself.

Very strange case and killer. Cops think it may be a hit, but lots of posters think the Kreuger was a thrill killer.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=284406&highlight=emert

Slightly off topic, but the real estate agent in Arkansas that was just found, made me think of this case! So sad.

There have been quite a few real estate agents murdered or sexually assaulted while on job. I think Mike Emert is one of the few male victims I've read about.

In this most recent case, Beverly Carter, I think all the red flags were there to show this was a set up from the beginning. I saw them easily, but maybe it's because I've watched a lot of AMW and UM and frequent the websleuths site.

If you do a search using the terms real estate agents murdered -carter (minus carter, otherwise all the results are for her case) it really shows how many crimes against real estate agents have been happening. It's actually more prevalent than I thought, because as I was reading through, I realized most of the cases never made the national news.

but the real estate agent in Arkansas that was just found, made me think of this case! So sad.

yep, I was just talking about this in another Mike Emert thread.

true
You know if you really think about it...

1. Serial killers are not really known to use bizzare methods or weapons.to kill people.

For all his bravado and ingenuity..the Zodiac Killer pretty much just shot and stabbed people. Nothing unique about that.

Son of Sam killed people with a .44 calibre gun.

EAR/ONS pretty much did the standard rape and murder.

The Ohio Prostitute killer used knifes and bludgeoned.

BTK used the standard weapons to kill his victims. Not even the rope thing is that unusual.

Most serial killers save their imagination for other things like letters, signatures, codes, victim type, or costume (zodiac).

2. on the other hand, you tend to see really bizarre murder weapons and deaths in conspiratorial or organized crime murders.

All of these methods have been used in confirmed and apparent conspuratorial /organized crime killings.

crossbows, electrocution in bath, people dumped in acid, grenades, car bombs, cyanide poisining, sabatoge, gas leaks, tiger maulings, being buried alive, radiation poisining, pillow smothering, poisonous snakes, being eating by rates, slow starvation, strangled with piano wire. etc.etc.

Kulkinski used several bizarre methods to committ murders.
There are several instances were he used things other than a standard gun and knife attack.

3. We tend to forget that mobsters themselves are capable of untold cruelty when it comes to killing their victims.
They have never shied away at finding the most painful way for someone to die.
It is not beyond them to want to toruture or even taunt victims. There have been cases of mob killings were victims were mutilitated, stripped naked, even defecated on , to ensure a humiliating death.

Perhaps whoever ordered Mike Emert dead, wanted know that Mike would be shocked at seeing that he was outsmarted. He may have also wanted something more painful than a regular knife or gun.

Being punctured by a sword cane has to rank pretty high on the pain scale. :(

4. Mobsters are also not beyond sending their own little messages.
Perhaps the location that Mike Emert was killed in is a subtle message.
Perhaps the use of the can and the manner of death was a "sleeping with the fishes" type message.