This is as good a spot as any to give my POV of Gary! No, I'm not saying he was perfect or a saint by any means but it can't have been easy for him to have been married to Lucy who seemed to treat him more like a servant than a husband and who made it clear that while she believed he was better for her than Desi, Desi would always be her most passionate love! The Arnaz kids have always praised him- long after Lucy's and even after his own death so they have no reason to lie. I think Tannen's account of them has some validity but, considering that Tannen himself seemed to have no use for his distant relative besides his link to Lucy, it's not surprising that Gary had virtually nothing to do with him after Lucy's death. I just think that he's been needlessly vilified!

While I agree with most of what you've said (check the ILL forum for my "Gary thread"...it's probably a few pages back by now), I don't agree with this....

but it can't have been easy for him to have been married to Lucy who seemed to treat him more like a servant than a husband

Well like Lee may have been a tad bias in his opinion of Gary, we have to remember that alot of the authors that write bios about Lucy's life, always portray lucy's life after Desi a certain way. That she was never happy again, and that she just got worst and worst over Desi. While that is true, she did love Desi for the rest of her life, and I believe he was the love of her life. That doesn't mean that she didn't love Gary. Her relationship could've been different with Gary. He may have understood her "gruff" ways and put up with them because he may have known that underneath that rough exterior was a very vulnerable woman.

Unfortunately, we never really got Gary's side and how he saw his relationship with Lucy.

Also, it always seems that those with a not so flattering portrait of Gary always get the most space in the books and tv specials...which is unfair to Gary, and his marriage to Lucy.

I'm kind of mixed up about my feelings on Gary, because I've heard many different stories (both good and bad), but I've never personally met him so I can't really judge him. Gary can either be portrayed as a money hungry gold digger who just used Lucy to get to her money and left her alone all the time to go play golf. Or he could be Lucy's kind, sweet second husband that comferted her when she was sad and depressed. I'd always liked Gary from what I'd seen of him up until reading the Lee Tannen book, which completely bashed Gary. Now I realize that Lee is just one person and those were his thoughts on Gary, but others might feel differently. One thing I don't like though is how everyone's always saying how Lucy and Desi should be together and Desi was the best out of the two husbands, but I just don't think he was (I'm not bashing Desi here!). Desi cheated on her repeatadly and basically made her life a living hell towards the end of their marraige, while Gary was more of a friend to Lucy and was always there for her. Then again, Gary could have been a gold digger who didn't care about Lucy. We'll never know though, the only two people that truly know about Lucy and Gary's relationship are Lucy and Gary.

Well, things are gonna get livelier now! Lucy NEEDED someone like Gary, to protect her, to escort her, to manage her career and to give her peace and quiet after the two decades with Desi. And THAT, he did give her. Gary was a second rate comic who, like Desi, BECAME Mr Ball, and i agree with you, that could not have been easy. But with that came power and wealth like he never would have known on his own. After the divorce Lucy hardened, but although Amber stated it beautifully, i also can't figure out if i liked him or hated him for his contribution to her life. He worked hard and helped her manage the business and the kids. Yes, i also was swayed by the fact that the kids never said a bad thing about him, and he also, like Lucy and Desi was great to his family and friends over the years. He mismanaged her career and lacked taste, should have pushed her to do classier stuff, small parts in films, anything to keep her working, which she lived to do. Because of HER, he got to socialize with people like Marvin Davis and got on hte board of directors of Twentieth Century Fox and even produced a Tom Cruise film, why couldn't he have managed her career better? Yes, he was always by her side, and did protect her, but choosing golf over her getting a six month job on Broadway is a perfect example of his selfishness. However, i disagree with Tannen about that story that Gary was moving furniture the minute she died, that's a perfect example of a man stifled for 28 years who could finally do what he wanted, it couod not have been easy married to a woman who loved saying no to everything and had more power and wealth than he could ever dream of, and everything he wound up with was because of HER. He got paid well, and gave her stability for three decades and that's what she wanted. I have heard many stories about him that still diminish him in my mind, never mind dating right after she died, but also talk of him folling around on her while they were married and Paula Stewart saying they had lots of trouble at the end, but i find it hard to imagine him cheating and risking losing everything. This subject could go on for days, and is very interesting.

The media, and especially the many books written on Lucy might have given us a distorted picture of their life together, the publicists suppress the truth and can enhance certain things. Let's take just one, the Barbara Walters interview with Lucy and Gary. What he was doing there is another example of her feeling more secure knowing he was next to her, because let';s face it, what on earth was he doing on air next to her in the first place? The first version i saw of this interview was a small clip of her cutting him off every time he tried to say something, so i felt sorry for him and it was embarrassing to watch. The second time i saw it, it was a more complete half hour version that showed a mroe balanced picture where she credited HIM for helping her and being at her side doing so many things for her, they looked like two people deeply in love and there for each other. She mentions that he helped her a lot when she retired from the weekly grind of a regular series, and she actually seems happy and content and makes it sound like they were great for each other. The stern hard Lucy comes out less in this interview than it usually does, maybe because she felt comfortable next to him and appreciated what he had done for her over the years. Of course, this was 1977, they had twelve years to go together, and let's face it, a retired Lucy who lived to work could not have been a joy to live with. However the Tannen book proved to us that the golfer left her alone for these long periods of time so the greatest comedic actress of all time was left alone to play those stupid games with various friends, family and even strangers. When her manager should have been geting her work, which made her happier than anything else.

Thanks for replying, SPLAIN and Amber. To address a few issues.
1. Did Lucy love Gary? I believe she did (and the two may have enjoyed a physical relationship until she became too frail) but compare the glowingly romantic passages about her courtship and marriage to Desi with the Gary's 'helpful and makes her laugh' passages in her autobio and one can see the passion for Gary wasn't as strong as for Desi ( especially considering that the book was dictated roughly four years after the Arnazes' painful divorce and three years into the Mortons' marriage).
2. Did Gary love Lucy? I think so because he did so much to help her out with her life and family but after being told NO by her so many times and her insistance that he had to totally reshape his life to accomodate her, it's not surprising that some feelings of resentment surfaced over the decades.
3. Was Gary a golddigger? Not entirely. While it's true that he owed his wealth during their marriage to her and she DID leave him a good amount to live on, she saw to it her image(and most of her property) was controlled by her children and they were her executors instead of Gary. It's possible, too, that since the kids were much younger than Gary, she knew they'd be around a lot longer than he to oversee things. Had he been a total golddigger, he'd made every effort to shut them out of the process but there's no evidence he even verbally objected to Lucy's wishes during her lifetime!
4. Did Gary give her lousy advice? Yes,he was far from Desi's orbit when it came to brilliant innovations but I don't think there was any malicious intent on his part- just a bit of incompetance. Besides, with him, Lucy never appeared to do anything she didn't want to do! Tannen put him over the coals over his talking her out of the 'Night of 100 Stars' special and Lucy was upset with Gary over that but until Tannen brought it up again, I'd totally forgotten that special had ever occured. ..and can't think of a single performer who participated in it. Can anyone here remember the special or anyone who was in it or what they did- from memory?
5. Was it Gary's fault that Lucy was bored stiff from not working? Not really. I know he was her de facto manager and, yes, I think as such it would have been best for him to have gotten her as much work as possible . . . BUT Lucy was a grown person and instead of sitting around grousing about him not getting her work and bored with him playing golf, she could have just as easily gotten another manager to GIVE her work. The Lucy of the 1930's-50's didn't wait for others to give her breaks but made her own breaks instead of blaming others for her inaction. And, until her health broke down with 'Stone Pillow' (1985) , Lucy was perfectly mobile and capable to do these things herself!
6. Do I think Gary was unfaithful to her during their marriage? NO!
7. Was Gary wrong to date soon after her death? No and he didn't remarry for three years afterwards. Consider that Lucy married him barely a year-and-a-half after divorcing Desi!

Originally posted by PracTz
Thanks for replying, SPLAIN and Amber.

What about me?:(

My reply is insignificant? :(


J/K- unless you intentionally left me out! :mad:

lol

Originally posted by That Other Fan
What about me?:(

My reply is insignificant? :(


J/K- unless you intentionally left me out! :mad:

lol

Sorry, I meant to include you,too, but I guess in my haste to get my post posted, unintentionally neglected to list you amongst the posters. My bad.

Ok, yes, i do remember every one of the three Night of 100 stars shows, they were terrific, over 300 stars from entertainment, sports, politics, every facet of American life. The one Lucy missed is the one everyone remembers for James Cagney being left in the middle of the stage and the stage wouldn't go up and the poor old man was left there alone and went through he**. The one Lucy attended had 350 names there and her old friends Ginger Rogers, Carol Burnett, Dick Van Dyke, De Niro, Hoffman, Laurence Olivier Lana Turner, you name them, they were there, and Lucy introduced the TV section and Lucie performed and both were in the audience at the end standing next to each other. On the third one, Lucy was remembered with other stars who had passed away and got a big hand, she was mentionned along with Davis and Princess Grace and many others. Lucy, who was a huge contributor to charitable causes her whole life and went to New York regularly should have been on all three shows, she had a great excuse for the third one, but hubby really made a mistake with the first. AND, how are you so sure Gary didn't cheat on her? Well connected people on the boards swear he did!

Originally posted by SPLAIN
how are you so sure Gary didn't cheat on her? Well connected people on the boards swear he did!

'Well connected' people having some sort of connection with Lucy have said alot of things...doesn't mean it's true.;)

Originally posted by That Other Fan
'Well connected' people having some sort of connection with Lucy have said alot of things...doesn't mean it's true.;)

VERY true TOF! I couldn't have said it better myself. Sorry, SPLAIN, I'm with TOF on this. ..and I still have no memory of 'Night of 100 Stars' (or Lucy's non-involvement).

Well, the reason Night of 100 stars sticks in my mind is because getting 300 names together in one place, and getting 300 in New York instead of Los Angeles is quite a feat also, Radio City Music Hall, which is a star itself, and warm ovations for superstars that we rarely get to see. I thought it was a great idea, and great for the charity, the stars home for senoirs, only wish they had done one once a year. Guess it was very difficult to pull off, Lucy's 2nd show took seven hours to shoot! As for Gary, don't you think i would rather believe that he never did cheat on her, they also said Lucy and Gary had a nice full sex life all the way to the end, but the insiders who said he did, while yes, they may have an axe to grind, i would hope wouldn't fabricate stories about him just to get back at him for somewaht mismanaging her career. As for the comment on her being able to get projects on her own, i beg to differ, that's what managers are for, and she certainly wouldn't have shown him up by getting a different person to handle the job when she spent her entire married life building up and protecting her two hubbies. Listen, i wasn't in their bedroom either, so i don't know, but i certainly hope she WAS happy with him, that's all i want to think about. To think that she found out about him cheating and was too old or tired to divorce him depresses me to no end! I prefer the OTHER scenario!

Maybe when we get the OTHER books we've been promised, we'll finally know the answer! Books from real insiders who were there and not duplications of stories we've heard a hundred times and read in other Lucy books, like Ball of Fire.

Originally posted by SPLAIN
the insiders who said he did, while yes, they may have an axe to grind, i would hope wouldn't fabricate stories about him just to get back at him for somewaht mismanaging her career.

If those insiders had that much trouble with/dislike for Gary that they felt they had an "axe to grind with him," you should probably take a real long deep look at that before you take any aspect of their comments into consideration as "truth."

I know he was her de facto manager and, yes, I think as such it would have been best for him to have gotten her as much work as possible . . . BUT Lucy was a grown person and instead of sitting around grousing about him not getting her work and bored with him playing golf, she could have just as easily gotten another manager to GIVE her work. The Lucy of the 1930's-50's didn't wait for others to give her breaks but made her own breaks instead of blaming others for her inaction. And, until her health broke down with 'Stone Pillow' (1985), Lucy was perfectly mobile and capable to do these things herself!


Very true . . . However we have to remember that at certain point Lucy simply didn't want to work anymore.

What was the last thing that Lucy really put her heart into?

IMO, it was 'Stone Pillow' . . . and that only took place because the "powers that be" wouldn't back her financially in a Broadway production of 'Miracles' so she became "obsessed" with playing a bag lady (according to Lee's telling of the story).

After that though, what was her heart really into?

Life With Lucy?

Look back just 12 years before LWL at Here's Lucy and how hard she worked (and made everyone on set work) to insure everything was just perfect, and then consider some of the accounts we've read about her during LWL (though, IMHO, she still managed to deliver the goods, from the one or two episodes I've viewed). Maybe she believed she was passed her prime. Which could be why her 'drive' to push everyone around her involved for excellence just seemed to be nonexistent on LWL.

Back to the point, lol...

If Lucy wanted to work (more so than she actually did...which was alot), Lucy could've worked. The fact that she was able to get a network to back her (for a very large sum) for a brand-new sitcom proved just that. Remember, she got the deal without a pilot, and the network had to commitment to a full season (the reason for the million-dollar payoff...cancellation fee). What other female entertainer in her 70's (now or at that time) could've gotten that? Let's not forget, had things worked out she would've had the biggest show of that year and maintained a successful run (Like "The Cosby Show") until she passed.

I've always believed that Lucy was in a difficult position. She loved to work, but she felt she wasn't what she once was (because of age), so she believed she couldn't work. She didn't see the potential she still possessed, and how much the world loved her. Of course, there's the "Lucy image" working against her as well. Again, the "powers that be" won't back her in certain projects because they're afraid the public won't be able to accept her as anything but Lucy.

My answer to this post has mysteriously dissapeared so i'll try to remember the biggest points. You're absolutely right about the way the networks treated her, some people here don't remember that Lucy was considered passe by CBS and the 20 year old suits there, ABC hoped she would save them the way Cosby did NBC. They didn't give her a chance, so she failed for the first time and i so admire the fact that she cried as much for the people who lost their jobs as she did for herself. I disagree with you about the fact that she gave up, she NEVER gave up, she was depressed and discouraged and thought people did not LOVE her anymore, yes, but when Hope offered her guest shots on his specials, she was always there, happy to do another number, another bad sketch. The one she did in '88 caused her to have a heart attack and her appearance on the Oscars, her last hurrah, killed her a month later. If she had done the Broadway show about the bag lady, which thrilled her because it didn't require her to look like a million, was cancelled by Gary so he would not lose his beloved golf game, instead he got her Stone Pillow, which nearly killed her, wearing all those clothes in 100 degree plus heat and with all her other ailments did her in. If i had been her manager, i would have convinced her to trim her long manicured nails, not many bag ladies have those, that's what kept her from getting another Emmy, at least she could have kept the gloves on. I have a better thing for us to discuss about Gary. Tell me what you think of this. Gary knew she had high blood pressure and could not have salt, so he tells Paula Stewart, ah, let her have it! Is it because he knows she has so few pleasures that she SHOULD have it if she likes it, at her age, who cares? Or should it have been, I love you so much i don't want to see you die, please don't have it, what do you think?

Oh and your best point of course was the fact that the public would not accept her in anything but Lucy, that dogged her all her life. This week's Entertainment Weekley shows her in a picture with Wayne Newton. He appeared on The Lucy show and it was such a hit they offered him a series based on that character. Lucy was desperate to have shows on the network filmed at her studio, but putting that aside she told him to reconsider, that he would be typecast for life like Jim Nabors in Gomer Pyle and even herself. No wonder Wayne thanks her to this day for her considerateness!

As The Othe Lucy Fan already said, if one believes these 'insiders' had an axe to grind with Gary, why take everything they say as though they're written on stone tablets?Besides, the two biggest insiders of all (her children) haven't expressed anything but liking for him (and they could have tried to reduce if not eliminate his share of the estate if they believed he was anything but a true husband to their mother).
All my life I've admired Lucy and nothing will change that because she brought marvellous gifts to the world through her talent and hard work but I don't think she made the best choices for herself in the last decade of her life- and Gary's main failing I believe was that he never was able to stand up to her even when it might have helped her.

I meant to type 'That Other Fan' instead of 'The Other Lucy Fan'.Oops! Sorry!

Well, Paula Stewart says Lucy and Gary were having trouble at the end, and some die hard Gary defenders have changed their tune after getting the low down from really close family type insiders, so although i want to believe she was happy in marriage, if not in work at the end, at least i would be thrilled to be proven wrong and told that they indeed had a great relationship till the very end. I agree that Lucy gave the world so much, it would be nice that she got that at least in return. However, we all know how big she was on appearances and was she holding his hand to show her contemporaries that she at least had a happy marriage at the end whereas some of them had many divorces under their belt?

As for the kids, it is said that even though he weeded out everybody from Desi's days from her life including Carole Cook, he very well could not do anything about her mom or her kids. He also was the peacemaker when old fashionned Lucy tangled with those kids on many occasions, so i can see where they would return the favor. Recently, i loved Lucie Arnaz saying that she could finally admit that her parents loved each other till their dying day with more details as the two OTHER spouses were now gone! And, they would be thankful to HIM for making their mom unhappy. Lucy might have her faults as a mother being a rich, busy entertainer who worked and ran a studio on the side, but she provided those kids with millions for the rest of their lives and they know how much she loved them, so i'm sure that they wanted to see her happy, even though they saw little of her at that stage, both living far away.

Seing as Gary had signed a pre nup, i was even surprised that he shared in the sale of the house on top of getting the Palm Springs home and many other things. Then again, the REAL money was in the licensing of their images which brings the kids a million a year in revenues, and they got to keep that for themselves. I remember when some spoiled rich kid got millions and lost everything, Lucy heard and was quoted as saying if i leave my kids 40 cents, they will get 10 cents a year for four years.

Gotta hand it to ya, SPLAIN, you've given some very good reasons as to why the Arnaz kids didn't think Gary was anything less than true blue to Lucy! If they didn't want to hurt his feeling re her and Desi's bond, then if they didn't think Gary was a worthy husband who made Lucy happy, they wouldn't have cared less how he felt about their revelations re their parents (especially considering that he was married to someone else the last five years of his life- a wedding Lucie attended!) Lucy was wonderful and I think her family (Gary included) gave her the best twilight years she could have had under the circumstances!

Yes, Lucie's explanation for attending the wedding is that Gary was the only living grandparent her kids had. AND she would also have to deal with him re estate matters so a cordial relationship would be better than the Sinatra clan goes through. Did you ever answer my question about the salt? If Lucy wanted salt and Gary said LET HER HAVE IT, is that nice because he figures she has nothing else to live for, or is it bad because he's showing he can't wait for her to exit? I just want your opinion.

OK, SPLAIN! IF Paula Stewart's story about the salt is true (and we only have the word of someone who many believe might have an axe to grind with Gary), then my guess would be that Gary simply had never been able to argue against what Lucy had wanted their whole marriage and wasn't able to put up an argument against the salt that would have persuaded Lucy not to have the salt even though it would have been for her own good- NOT because he had some Machievellian intent against Lucy. Sorry, I'm not inclined to totally believe every utterance by Paula without a few grains of. .salt- especially her claim that Gary dismissed a nurse when they had TrudyArcudiPrivateDuty tending to Lucy right up to the very moment of Lucy's death( even Tannen confirms this).
Of course, this begs the question if Paula loved Lucy as a friend why didn't she try to talk Lucy out of the salt? Could it have been because she was afraid Lucy would lose her temper and throw Paula out of the house(and possibly cut her out of any will)- possibly forever? I

I agree with PracTz. I think that Gary knew Lucy would have the salt anyway, so why argue with her? My grandmother has high blood pressure as well but she continues to eat salt, even though we all tell her not to. You can't teach an old dog new tricks (I know that's a bad analogy, but you get the point). I highly doubt that Gary would want Lucy to die sooner, even if he was a "selfish gold digger" like some say. And that's a good point you made, why didn't Paula talk Lucy out of eating the salt?

Maybe Paula thought it was more for the husband to comment on, i dunno, hey, that's why i ASKED you in the first place. I would hope that after Lucy had it, that night, later in bed, Gary would gently tell her that he's afraid she won't be around much longer if she keeps doing that. I also think that if the person you live with supplies the lifestyle you've grown accustomed to, you want her to live as long as possible. However, i am the first to admit Lucy could be difficult to live with, especially at that stage of her life, so knowing he would inherit so much when she expired . . . Now, dismissing the nurse was ridiculous and a perfect example of his uncaring attitude. She had a staff, and his nephew was on it, they should have elliminated HIM instead of a nurse, then maybe Lucy would not have died alone, she needed nurses 24 hours a day, and money was NOT the problem, however i also admit that Lucy could be as frugal as Gary was. But she would never do that when someone's health or life were involved. Stop getting upset over this, we're just discussing things, we have no idea what really went on and we both want to get to the truth, and one day, insiders will come and tell us, now that Gary is no longer there. He only died 4 years ago.

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Maybe Paula thought it was more for the husband to comment on, i dunno, hey, that's why i ASKED you in the first place. I would hope that after Lucy had it, that night, later in bed, Gary would gently tell her that he's afraid she won't be around much longer if she keeps doing that. I also think that if the person you live with supplies the lifestyle you've grown accustomed to, you want her to live as long as possible. However, i am the first to admit Lucy could be difficult to live with, especially at that stage of her life, so knowing he would inherit so much when she expired . . . Now, dismissing the nurse was ridiculous and a perfect example of his uncaring attitude. She had a staff, and his nephew was on it, they should have elliminated HIM instead of a nurse, then maybe Lucy would not have died alone, she needed nurses 24 hours a day, and money was NOT the problem, however i also admit that Lucy could be as frugal as Gary was. But she would never do that when someone's health or life were involved. Stop getting upset over this, we're just discussing things, we have no idea what really went on and we both want to get to the truth, and one day, insiders will come and tell us, now that Gary is no longer there. He only died 4 years ago.


SPLAIN, I'm not upset. I just don't automatically believe these self-proclaimed 'insider' accounts have as much validity as the Arnazes' own testimony. If you choose to believe the negative things that were churned up after only both Mortons' passings, that's your choice and I accept that so please simply accept that I don't give them credance and I've thoroughly explained my reasoning in the previous postings .

Let's consider ourselves and the world blessed that there was someone named Lucille Ball who came into this world who was able to turn her less-than-idyllic beginnings into a talent that became something that has brought and will continue bring to joy and happiness to millions for the rest of humanity's era on this planet!

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Maybe Paula thought it was more for the husband to comment on, i dunno, hey, that's why i ASKED you in the first place.

If Paula had THAT much issue with it, Paula should've been more vocal about it, and risked being thrown out of Lucy's life by telling her point blank she shouldn't do that. Perhaps she should've mentioned her "ill feelings" about Gary to Lucy as well...


A pattern I've noticed with some "celeb friends," after the fact they always complain that those close to the celebrity didn't do what they were suppose to and yet they didn't either. Why complain about another individual, when you didn't take proper action either? Gary was Lucy's husband, but she was one of the few people Lucy allowed to get close to her, that meant something as well. If she felt Gary didn't do what he should...take action (at least do something)

As for the nurse comments, we have accounts that Lucy had a nurse up to the end. Unfortunately, she wasn't there at the time Lucy went as she had been there 24-7, practially the whole time Lucy was in the hospital (the woman deserved a few hours off, and let's not forget, as has been disscussed at length before, Lucy was getting better, improving fast, and was expected to recover....)

Ok on everything except the nurse bit, she could have had a replacement, that's all. A woman who entertained the world for 50 years and still does, deserved better. It doesn't matter to me if she was getting better, a woman in her condition after an operation where her heart was stopped for hours and at that age should have had round the clock private nursing. He had cancelled a nurse before because it was too expensive, why didn't he fire his errand boy nephew instead?

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Ok on everything except the nurse bit, she could have had a replacement, that's all. A woman who entertained the world for 50 years and still does, deserved better.

True, however, it was the families decision. Lucie and Desi Jr. did have a say, and they haven't expressed any type anger at Gary over the matter, I suppose all involved (including Lucy) just truly belived she was making a recovery. :(

Originally posted by PracTz
I meant to type 'That Other Fan' instead of 'The Other Lucy Fan'.Oops! Sorry!


:lol:

Either one...Doesn't really matter

Thank you both, this has been a very interesting thread, i hope you realize i have to edit out some of my comments so as to not start a world war, while i agree with your comments about celebrity friends, you know for example that Titanic old lady taking credit for Lucy's start on a recent documentary, but i don't know why you don't think people who were VERY close to Lucy and who have made comments that are VERY negative towards Gary might have an axe to grind but they might also be stating facts that they saw with their own eyes. I know that i would love to be told for a fact that Gary treated her well, but that's not what i hear, so every time i see the pictures and them together at events, i just cringe, although i would prefer to think she got from him what she gave out, a person who helped and all, but did have an agenda and sometimes she wasn't HIS priority, then again maybe his beloved golf game and the material things and money were compensation for having to live with an unhappy woman who couldn't take no for an answer but sure gave it as an answer a lot at the end.