What does it symbolize to you? i dont know about anywhere else, but where im from in Florida it seems like a big racist thing, and im just curious what does it mean to anyone else?

i live in a little redneck town so almost everyone has a rebel flag hanging on there house. we dont, i think it is a racist thing, and i am definitly not racist.

Originally posted by Fan of old shows
What does it symbolize to you? i dont know about anywhere else, but where im from in Florida it seems like a big racist thing, and im just curious what does it mean to anyone else?


Well, for me, it represents my heritage. I'm proud to be from the south. The rebel flag doesn't stand for racism in anyway shape or form. Some people have just tried to turn it around to mean racism. The thing that gets me, is that most people associate the rebel flag with the civil war. Yes it was a battle flag, but it wasn't the flag of the south. I've never understood that. Oh well, I guess I never will.

To get back to the original question, it reminds me fo who I am, and of my Dixie pride! But most of all, it reminds me of The General Lee! :D

It's just the battle flag of the Confederate states in the Civil War. It means nothing more to me. I guess it's seen as racist since it was the symbol of the slave-owning side.

Funny thing is in the South there are tons of old Civil War memorials and very few, if any, in the North. You'd think that they'd want to forget they lost... :)

If a bunch of white redneck drives around in their blue ford truck waving it around screaming "N AA CP.. ******s always causing trouble" then yea.. there using it for racist reasons

But as far as flying the SOUTHERN CONFEDERATE FLAG on the SOUTH carolina state house... or at least letting it be inside it.. I think it should be aiight...cause it just represents what side we were in the civil war

I don't think the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism. I'm with D in that I take it as a symbol or my southern heritage. I see nothing wrong with flying it. Heck, you see it everywhere around here. I think it's cool and I'm kinda proud to have a 'southern flag.'
It sets the South apart in a way...







ks

A lot of people will argue that its a sign of heritage but it seems like more of a public endorsement for racism to me. I'll never buy anything with the confederate flag on it unless its toilet paper.

It doesn't really mean anything to me. Being from the north, I will say that when I see a Northerner with it on their car or on their house, it usually means they are racist (I speak from experience...the racists I went to high school with all had rebel flag stickers on their trucks).

If I traveled to the south and saw it flying, I would not automatically assume the household was racist.

I do think that in alot of ways the flag stands for racism. I know many people disagree with that.

The way I look at it is the same way I feel about using Indian mascots for athletic teams (which I am adamantly against): it is not up to us, the non-aggreived people, to tell others that what we are doing is not offensive to them. We cannot and should not tell others how to feel.

Therefore, I believe that if large segments of society feel it is offensive to them, then others should respect that. I don't feel the flag should have to be abdandoned altogether. If you feel it represents your heritage and want to display it in your home, that is your right. But I am not so sure it is right to be displayed on public buildings.

That said, I do not feel the flag itself is inherently evil or anything. In fact I own a small rebel flag, a memeto I bought along with an American flag when I went to Gettysburg. I do think it is unfortunate for people like Dannie that some use it as a symbol of racism. Kind of like a few bad apples spoiling it for the whole bunch. However, I have to wonder when she says "some people just try to turn it around to mean racism", is she admitting that some people do in fact use it in that way, or is she implying that it's just some sort of PC conspiracy?

The thing is, over time, the original meanings of things change. At one time swatikas were simply crosses...they even had holy connotations. Times change though, and the definition of what a swastika stands for has forever changed. I think that the rebel flag started out as nothing more than a flag, definitely a symbol of pride for the South, but that over time what it is perceived to stand for has changed forever.

Good topic, by the way! Nice to have something to have a good conversation about again!

Originally posted by Ags2000

But most of all, it reminds me of The General Lee! :D

lets not forget General Beaureguard!! (he was my great x3 uncle!)

I wouldnt say it "symbolizes racism" It symbolizes a heritage just as if someone flew a certain countries flag, tartan, or shield. We shouldnt make any more out of it than that. Not everything has evil undertones.

Oh, and for the sake of saying it: it also makes me think of that scene in gone with the wind where scarletts walking through the street filled with wounded soldiers and you see the torn confederate flag in the forground....

Originally posted by Ags2000
Well, for me, it represents my heritage. I'm proud to be from the south. The rebel flag doesn't stand for racism in anyway shape or form. Some people have just tried to turn it around to mean racism. The thing that gets me, is that most people associate the rebel flag with the civil war. Yes it was a battle flag, but it wasn't the flag of the south. I've never understood that. Oh well, I guess I never will.

Let me start by saying I'm not from the south and I am not up with my civil war history. But I have to admit that when I see the flag I think of the civil war and the side that defended slavery, probably because that's the only exposure I've ever had to the flag. Truthfully I don't know what else the flag stands for. Maybe you or the other southerners here can enlighten me on what part of your heritage the flag represents.

So I may be misinformed but to me the flag makes me think of slavery and racism, and I think it's wrong to still display it as if it doesn't carry that meaning at least in part.

Im a northener (Southern New Hampshire), and very rarely see Confederate Flags (I never heard the term "Rebel Flag" before, and I was gonna ask what it was until someone got more detailed lol:rolleyes: ), but when I do- Im distgusted. Im sure though, if I were to go to the South and see those flags all around I wouldnt think anything of it, because thats THEIR history. Yea, the north was part of history, but for different reasons which is why I feel the way I do. IMO.

Originally posted by .:MilKnPepSi:.
Im a northener (Southern New Hampshire), and very rarely see Confederate Flags (I never heard the term "Rebel Flag" before, and I was gonna ask what it was until someone got more detailed lol:rolleyes: ), but when I do- Im distgusted. Im sure though, if I were to go to the South and see those flags all around I wouldnt think anything of it, because thats THEIR history. Yea, the north was part of history, but for different reasons which is why I feel the way I do. IMO.

Yeah, I agree. I have never seen them flown at homes before. I'm too damn sheltered...(dude, I saw my first trailer park when I was 11..before that I thought it was where you bought motor homes....thats OT though...)

I don't really know what to think of them, becuase I don't see them every day, I just see them in history books and such

Well to be honest the first thing I think about when I see it is "The Dukes Of Hazzard":lol: Which was a very unracist show in my opinion! But I guess flying the confederate flag could be considered kind of unpatriotic, it is really the symbol of a defeated nation or faction or whatever you want to call it! So it is really in the eye of the beholder! Personally I don't find it offensive at all.

Originally posted by Penny Lane
Well to be honest the first thing I think about when I see it is "The Dukes Of Hazzard":lol: Which was a very unracist show in my opinion! But I guess flying the confederate flag could be considered kind of unpatriotic, it is really the symbol of a defeated nation or faction or whatever you want to call it! So it is really in the eye of the beholder! Personally I don't find it offensive at all.
:lol: thats part of the reason i made it was cuz when they made the 90s movie black people protested the flag because of its symbol.

Originally posted by Bootsy Whoosh

That said, I do not feel the flag itself is inherently evil or anything. In fact I own a small rebel flag, a memeto I bought along with an American flag when I went to Gettysburg. I do think it is unfortunate for people like Dannie that some use it as a symbol of racism. Kind of like a few bad apples spoiling it for the whole bunch. However, I have to wonder when she says "some people just try to turn it around to mean racism", is she admitting that some people do in fact use it in that way, or is she implying that it's just some sort of PC conspiracy?

I kinda meant it in 2 ways. I meant it first off as that alot of these white supremists groups have taken it up as their symbol for racism. It's because of THAT that groups such as the NAACP, have started trying to get rid of the battleflag in the south by saying it only represents racism. It doesn't, these white supremists groups have soiled it to try to make it that way, and as a southerner it disgusts me to see them use MY flag that way!

Originally posted by Bootsy Whoosh
Good topic, by the way! Nice to have something to have a good conversation about again!

I agree!

Originally posted by Lynn
Let me start by saying I'm not from the south and I am not up with my civil war history. But I have to admit that when I see the flag I think of the civil war and the side that defended slavery, probably because that's the only exposure I've ever had to the flag. Truthfully I don't know what else the flag stands for. Maybe you or the other southerners here can enlighten me on what part of your heritage the flag represents.

For most people, the image of the Confederate Flag conjures up the "blue cross with white stars on a red background" which is more properly known as the most famous Confederate battle flag. The actual confederate flag looked similar to the American flag. (The attached picture is the original REAL confederate flag.) It also had a similar nick-name. It was called the stars and bars. The Stars and Bars was used as the official flag of the Confederacy from March 1861 to May of 1863.

Not more then a year after the adoption of the Stars and Bars the issue of designing a new flag for the Confederate States was raised with the intention to create a flag that was in no way similar to the Union's Stars and Stripes. Adopted on May 1, 1863 this flag displayed the Battle Flag in the canton on a field of pure white, giving it it's name the "Stainless Banner". The specs were not very strickly adhered to and in many cases the canton was rectangular. The white field is symbolic for the purity of the Cause which it represented. When this flag was flown, it was mistaken as a flag of surrender alot of the times especially on days with no wind because if the fact that it was all white except for the top left corner (the canton) were a small battle flag was.

Because it could be mistaken for a flag of truce, the Stainless Banner was modifed to include a red bar on the fly (the far right side). It was to be 1/4 of the area of the flag beyond the now rectangular canton. The width was to be 2/3 of length. The canton was to be 3/5 of width and 1/3 of length. This was signed into law on March 4, 1865. For the last several months of the war it was modified by the addition of a red vertical stripe on the hoist. This was called the Third Confederate Flag or Last Confederate Flag. Few flags of this version were issued and few survived.

Originally posted by Lynn
So I may be misinformed but to me the flag makes me think of slavery and racism, and I think it's wrong to still display it as if it doesn't carry that meaning at least in part.

This has been one fact that has been fought over for years and will probably continue to be fought over for years to come. It is necessary to disclaim any connection of the confederate flag, as well as all of the battle flags, to neo-nazis, skin-heads and the like. These groups have adopted this flag and desecrated it by their acts. They have no right to use this flag - it is a flag of honor, designed by the confederacy as a banner representing state's rights and still revered by the South to this day. The South denies any relation to these hate groups and denies them the right to use the flags of the confederacy for any purpose. The crimes committed by these groups under the stolen banner of the conderacy only exacerbate the mistaken views which link the seccesion to slavery interests when, from a Southerner's view, the cause was state's rights.


D

Bootsy and Ags have covered most of what I had planned for my speach, lol. But since this is a subject of interest to me I'll just add - so as not ot be left out - it is true and a shame that the hate groups have sullied the flag by stealing it and attaching themselves to it. It's completely understandable that minority groups such as the NAACP would have a problem with the flag for that reason. But I wonder if maybe they've gone about that all wrong. In reality the flag never did symbolize or stand for a battle to retain slavery. And since the NAACP fights for minority rights they could well have benefited (and maybe could still) if they had taken on the task of educating themselves and the public about the history of the flag. They could have taken the minority side--those who wish to save the flag's true meaning and heritage, rather than having bought into, and thus legitimzing it's use as a symbol of solidarity for hate groups. I think that would've brought together an extraordinary grouping of people for a cause and would've left the hate groups with no where to turn, and looking even more foolish than they do as it is--if that's possible.

I have a question for those of you that are saying it is a racist thing. I know the reason people see it as racist is bc of the KKK and skind-heads etc using it as a symbol of racism. The reason I know this is bc this is the only time in history that it has been deemed a racist symbol. So, knowing that this is the reason that you see this as a racist symbol (don't tell me otherwise, bc you would be lying....it may be bc of the way you were raised, but its bc of these select groups) do you view Mickey Mouse as a symbol of violence, murder, and drugs? Do you view black (dogs for those that don't know) labs as symbols of violence, murder, and drugs? Do you view Penn State as a symbol of violence, murder and drugs? Do you view NC State as a symbol of violence, murder and drugs? Do you view the color red or blue as a symbol of violence, murder, and drugs? The reason I ask this, is bc gangs use these symbols and colors, yet people don't associate Mickey Mouse with evil. The same should be true of the Battle Flag of the Republic. But, this just shows how truly ignorant some people are. And, we've already deemed that some on this board are and you are proving it again by trying to say that slavery was the reason for the civil war, it was NOT...and those that truly believe that slavery was the reason for the civil war truly need to take a lesson in US History. The reason for the civil war was bc the south wanted to sucede (leave) the union and the north didn't want them to. There were even blacks that fought on the south side:eek:

Anyway, to answer the question. No, I dont think its a symbol of racism. Never has been never will be. I've stayed in New York, and the people I knew that had The Battle Flag hanging up in their windows of their house or had stickers on their vehicle were not racist, and anyone who makes a blanket statement like that is completely ignorant and is the exact reason why racism and sexism are alive and well in America today.

Oh, and the person who compared it to using Native Americans as a team mascot...OMG, get off your high-horse. I am 3/4 Cherokee Indian, and I have absolutely NO problem with it..why?? Simple, the schools/major teams that use Indians as their mascots, did so bc they saw them as pillars of strength, courage, etc...everything they wanted their team to represent. It amazes me that the people making the biggest deal outta this have absolutely NO ties to any Native American blood line.

I see nothing wrong with the Confederate flag, but I think it's wrong that people have turned it into a racist cymbal...because it's not. It's just more of a Southern Pride thing to me.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Dammit
Idon't associate Mickey Mouse with evil. The same should be true of the Battle Flag of the Republic. But, this just shows how truly ignorant some people are. And, we've already deemed that some on this board are and you are proving it again by trying to say that slavery was the reason for the civil war, it was NOT...and those that truly believe that slavery was the reason for the civil war truly need to take a lesson in US History. The reason for the civil war was bc the south wanted to sucede (leave) the union and the north didn't want them to. There were even blacks that fought on the south side:eek:



Oh, and the person who compared it to using Native Americans as a team mascot...OMG, get off your high-horse. I am 3/4 Cherokee Indian, and I have absolutely NO problem with it..why?? Simple, the schools/major teams that use Indians as their mascots, did so bc they saw them as pillars of strength, courage, etc...everything they wanted their team to represent. It amazes me that the people making the biggest deal outta this have absolutely NO ties to any Native American blood line. [/QUOTE]


Excuse us all, Dammitt, but you might have missed a spot or two of history afterall.

First about The South succeeding. They didn't succeed for no reason and just one of the reasons that they did succeed was because of the disagreement with the North over the expantion of slavery into the western states. There were many other reasons besides that, but scholars and historians debate in good faith what role slavery played in the division between the North and South. Most of them refrain from calling each other ignorant for their differences of opinion.

On the matter of mascots:
From "Indian Country Today": 81 percent of respondents polled on the use of American Indian names, symbols and mascots, said that they are predominately offensive and deeply disparaging to Native Americans.
"Indian mascots, by todays standards, would be offensive to any other race if portrayed in a similar manner"
--Fred Blue Fox, Sicangu Lakota

Dammitt, you should be careful about calling everyone ignorant who doesn't agree with your not so well thought out opinions.

When I think of the Confederate flag, I think of Catherine Bach sitting on the hood of an orange car wearing nothing but a skimpy blouse, short shorts, and a smile........

slavery was not the only reason the south wanted to succeed, nor was it the main reason. I know my history just fine thank you very much. Yes historians debate in good faith, but, they at least know what they are talking about when they debate. I'm not calling anyone ignorant for having a different opinion than me, I'm calling them ignorant bc they don't know what they are talking about. And, if it bothered anyone, they could research what they are talking about before making the comments they do. That's the nice thing about ignorance, it can be overcome...stupidity, is the same as ignorance except you refuse to even attempt to learn the information before spouting anything off, so just be glad I didn't call anyone stupid. Just for the record, you weren't the one I was calling ignorant, but hey, y'all got to stick together or whatever, so fine.

As for the mascot thing...don't get me started on that. Anyone that knows anything, knows that numbers, no matter how they are written, can always be turned to show exactly what you want them to. So, telling me that 81% of those polled said it was offensive means absolutely nothing to me. I could say 100% of those that I specifically asked saw absolutely no problems with it, and my numbers would mean just as much as the numbers you are spouting off.

As for your last comment...my first response was very much thought out, if you see it differently, fine. And as I said, I wasn't calling everyone ignorant, and if you took it as so, oh well.

Apparently some people on here also need to quit taking things complete strangers say to heart....

Originally posted by Dammit
I have a question for those of you that are saying it is a racist thing. I know the reason people see it as racist is bc of the KKK and skind-heads etc using it as a symbol of racism. The reason I know this is bc this is the only time in history that it has been deemed a racist symbol. So, knowing that this is the reason that you see this as a racist symbol (don't tell me otherwise, bc you would be lying....it may be bc of the way you were raised, but its bc of these select groups) do you view Mickey Mouse as a symbol of violence, murder, and drugs?

Simple answer to the Mickey Mouse spiel: the hate groups using Mickey Mouse etc. as their symbol are obviously not as much in the public eye as the hate groups making use of the rebel flag.

Originally posted by Dammit
I've stayed in New York, and the people I knew that had The Battle Flag hanging up in their windows of their house or had stickers on their vehicle were not racist, and anyone who makes a blanket statement like that is completely ignorant and is the exact reason why racism and sexism are alive and well in America today

I will fully admit that upon a second reading, yes, my statements about individuals who display the flag in the north was an overgeneralization. Observe though, that I did acknowledge that I would not assume that all Southerners who use it are racist, because I can see how it is part of their heritage. I just don't see why Northerners would fly it, since it isn't part of their heritage, unless they used to live in the South. The folks I knew with the bumper stickers were born and bred northerners. I can say that the folks I personally know who display it in the North are in fact racist (a point you cannot argue with me on because you do not know them), but yes, it was wrong of me to overgeneralize and assume all or even most people using it in the north are racists. In truth, I never really thought that, it's just that I did not think when I typed. For that, I apologize to anyone who felt offened by my statements.

I do however feel it is a little harse to condemn me as being completely ignorant and the cause of all racism and sexism. It was a slip in thought, and a slip in typing, but I assure you I am not out there actively promoting racism. I'm just glad there are others on this board who have seen me post often and can know that my overgeneraliztion was a slip-up, and certainly not normal behavior from me.

Originally posted by Dammit
Oh, and the person who compared it to using Native Americans as a team mascot...OMG, get off your high-horse. I am 3/4 Cherokee Indian, and I have absolutely NO problem with it..why?? Simple, the schools/major teams that use Indians as their mascots, did so bc they saw them as pillars of strength, courage, etc...everything they wanted their team to represent. It amazes me that the people making the biggest deal outta this have absolutely NO ties to any Native American blood line.

Get off your high horse! I love how you can see through your computer screen and "know" I'm not American Indian. In fact I do have Cherokee blood.

But that is irrelevant. Just because you also have some Cherokee blood floating around in your veins does not mean that your opinion is any more important, or even accurate, than mine.

I have devoted a great deal of my time as an undergraduate studying and researching this issue for various reports and presentations, and I can assure you, despite the fact that you seem to assume you speak for the entire Amercian Indian population, that the majority of American Indians (particularly those living on reservations and living a traditional mode of life...i.e. not integrated into white society) do take issue with the use of Indian mascots. If you really want to take me to task on this issue, I invite you to start a thread on it, in which I will present to you and everyone else my huge stacks of research, and you will be free to argue your one man's opinion.

You are entitled to you opinion that mascots are A-OK with you but if you assume they are A-OK for all Native Americans just because you are OK with it, then you are guilty of the same overgeneralization you accuse me of above. At any rate, I don't understand why you'd get so upset if a white person wants to help out a minority group, whose voices often are not heard. THE HORROR!

Originally posted by Dammit
As for the mascot thing...don't get me started on that. Anyone that knows anything, knows that numbers, no matter how they are written, can always be turned to show exactly what you want them to. So, telling me that 81% of those polled said it was offensive means absolutely nothing to me. I could say 100% of those that I specifically asked saw absolutely no problems with it, and my numbers would mean just as much as the numbers you are spouting off.


Well, yes and no. Anyone who wants to take numbers or statistics at face value can fall into the trap of being fooled, since yes, numbers can be manipulated to prove just about anything.

However, once one explores the facts behind the numbers they are reading (as any "ignorant" person might do....something you could try since you seem to be so ignorant on this issue), it can easily be proven that one set of data is more accurate than the other.

For example, let's say Kitt does a report that polls 3,000 Native Americans, of varying tribes, living in varying locations across the country, of varying ages, of varying sex, and of varying education levels, and his study reveals that 90% of American Indians have a problem with the use of mascots. Then let's say you do a study that shows that 100% of people you polled did approve, but upon further inspection you only polled 63 men living in one metroploitan area, we can firmly say that Kitt's study was more accurate.

Originally posted by Dammit
slavery was not the only reason the south wanted to succeed, nor was it the main reason. I know my history just fine thank you very much. Yes historians debate in good faith, but, they at least know what they are talking about when they debate. I'm not calling anyone ignorant for having a different opinion than me, I'm calling them ignorant bc they don't know what they are talking about. And, if it bothered anyone, they could research what they are talking about bst comment...my first response was very much thought out, if you see it differently, fine. And as I said, I wasn't calling everyone ignorant, and if you took it as so, oh well.

Apparently some people on here also need to quit taking things complete strangers say to heart.... If you were to look at posts of mine from the past you'd see that I don't come to the defense of only myself. If you or anyone chooses to lambast others on the board simply because they might have some facts wrong, or you think they might have some facts wrong, then I'm likely to speak out for them the same as I will for myself. And by the way, speaking of, "anyone could research what they are talking about", the poll or stats that you tossed off as non-sense took me about 3 minutes to look up on a site authored by American Indians. There is a mountain more of information on that site, and others, that you might find usefull if you intend to take Bootsy up on her offer to debate the subject of "offensive" mascots. Happy hunting and good luck.

I think the rebel flag stands for southern heritage but to others it maeens hatered