For those who don't know, that episode (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0575438/) was originally written (https://www.yahoo.com/now/facts-of-life-star-lisa-whelchel-written-out-of-virginity-episode-180032938.html) with Blair in mind as the focus instead of Natalie (https://microsites.ew.com/microsite/longform/facts/). But Lisa refused to appear in the episode what so ever because she felt that the episode (https://www.audible.com/pd/The-Facts-Of-Life-The-First-Time-2-6-1988-Podcast/B095M519BJ)'s message pertaining to premarital sex greatly conflicted with her moral values. That was the only episode that Lisa missed during the show's nine year run.

Had an episode like that (https://theveryspecialblog.com/2015/03/11/the-facts-of-life-the-first-time/) come in or near, say the second season, do honestly believe that Lisa would've had such an option to completely opt out of an episode if it didn't jive with her personal beliefs? I say this because I've read the suggestion (https://web.archive.org/web/20140402224907/http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/2625067-the-facts-of-life/page-56) that Lisa was able to get away with it because the episode came at the end of a very long-running series. And Lisa up until that point, was presumably known and regarded as being a team player and acting professional.

I think she had a good relationship with the producers, and had no trouble skipping an episode, just as Kim had done, as well.

Lisa did reveal skipping the episode did cost her $55,000.

It was just one episode and Lisa was the major star. Plus they needed her for the spinoff (which never took off).

Since Miss Whelchel had been in every single other episode prior to this one (and the show was within sight of its end date even if it hadn't been officially cancelled), I think it's likely the accepted her decline and knew it would have caused more trouble (and flak) for the show had they fired her over that than had they agreed.

Plus, Miss Cohn volunteered to go into the trenches to have her character do the deed.

Now, if Miss Cohn had NOT volunteered to do this, I wonder if they'd have tried to pressue Miss McKeon or even Miss Fields to have been the Roomie who first admitted to have not maintained her virginity OR would they have given up on the storyline altogether?

P.S. I know the Four had been through a LOT and shared more with each other than they did with anyone else but does anyone else wonder if it's possible that one of the other Three COULD have actually done the deed but, someone kept it TOTALLY to herself? Folks can (and HAVE) lied about maintaining virginity even to their nearest and dearest down the ages!

We know Jo got very close, on more than one occasion. She and Eddie had eloped, and they almost did you know what on the most dirty bedspread I have ever seen in my life!

I think she had a good relationship with the producers, and had no trouble skipping an episode, just as Kim had done, as well.

Lisa did reveal skipping the episode did cost her $55,000.

I suspect that Lisa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zujo4P_0kg) is kind of a Debby Boone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMdxBJz8uLM) type, in that she's a genuinely positive, upbeat, friendly Christian lady instead of a late era Growing Pains Kirk Cameron type, who would reject anything in the script that contained the slightest bit of edge or innuendo.

And any news about Lisa being difficult like Kirk was true, then it would've likely have gone out. The only really huge "controversy" that I'm aware of Lisa Whelchel is when she wrote a parenting book that discussed disciplining kids by putting hot sauce in on their tongues.

I suspect that Lisa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zujo4P_0kg) is kind of a Debby Boone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMdxBJz8uLM) type, in that she's a genuinely positive, upbeat, friendly Christian lady instead of a late era Growing Pains Kirk Cameron type, how would reject anything in the script that contained the slightest bit of edge or innuendo.

Not only is Lisa a very kind Christian lady, for many years she did do scenes with innuendo: she was the one calling Cindy "strange", she was the one whose character didn't believe in God, and she was the one helping Jo after Harrison assaulted Jo in "Double Standard". Blair had a "how far can you go" competition with Sue Ann in "The Facts of Love", Blair stayed out past curfew, Blair introduced Sue Ann to marijuana, and Blair lied on multiple occasions. Early Blair was a firecracker, and it's only in later years that Blair becomes this straitlaced, conservatively-dressed Nancy Reagan clone.

Lisa never seemed to reject innuendo, with the only exception being "going all the way"; several sources state that the original idea was for Blair to lose her virginity early on in the series' run, but Lisa rejected that idea. The producers respected Lisa's decision.

Years later, the topic came up again, Lisa again rejected the story idea, and Mindy volunteered instead. Lisa declined to appear in the episode, but now says it was a mistake: that thinking back, she would now do the episode to provide a counter-point or balance to what was in the episode: Blair could have counseled Natalie not to go all the way, early in a relationship.


And any news about Lisa being difficult like Kirk was true, then it would've likely have gone out. The only really huge "controversy" that I'm aware of Lisa Whelchel is when she wrote a parenting book that discussed disciplining kids by putting hot sauce in on their tongues.

I don't believe Lisa is difficult. But I do believe that, after her early career, she drew some lines about projects where she wanted to be involved. She never would have lasted on Friends, for example, with its consistent racy storylines (can you imagine her doing the "juicebox" scene with David Schwimmer?).

However, Lisa isn't without controversy: Lisa seemed to be included in the Pamela Adlon tell-all about tensions behind the scenes.

Not only is Lisa a very kind Christian lady, for many years she did do scenes with innuendo: she was the one calling Cindy "strange", she was the one whose character didn't believe in God, and she was the one helping Jo after Harrison assaulted Jo in "Double Standard". Blair had a "how far can you go" competition with Sue Ann in "The Facts of Love", Blair stayed out past curfew, Blair introduced Sue Ann to marijuana, and Blair lied on multiple occasions. Early Blair was a firecracker, and it's only in later years that Blair becomes this straitlaced, conservatively-dressed Nancy Reagan clone.

Lisa never seemed to reject innuendo, with the only exception being "going all the way"; several sources state that the original idea was for Blair to lose her virginity early on in the series' run, but Lisa rejected that idea. The producers respected Lisa's decision.

Years later, the topic came up again, Lisa again rejected the story idea, and Mindy volunteered instead. Lisa declined to appear in the episode, but now says it was a mistake: that thinking back, she would now do the episode to provide a counter-point or balance to what was in the episode: Blair could have counseled Natalie not to go all the way, early in a relationship.



I don't believe Lisa is difficult. But I do believe that, after her early career, she drew some lines about projects where she wanted to be involved. She never would have lasted on Friends, for example, with its consistent racy storylines (can you imagine her doing the "juicebox" scene with David Schwimmer?).

However, Lisa isn't without controversy: Lisa seemed to be included in the Pamela Adlon tell-all about tensions behind the scenes.

Though Lisa admitted that she had no idea what the theme of "Rough Housing" was about. She thought it was about Cindy being a tomboy and not knowing it was about Blair calling Cindy a lesbian. Lisa may not have even known what a lesbian was then. She led a sheltered life. Julie Anne knew what the episode was about as did young Molly.

Though Lisa admitted that she had no idea what the theme of "Rough Housing" was about. She thought it was about Cindy being a tomboy and not knowing it was about Blair calling Cindy a lesbian. Lisa may not have even known what a lesbian was then. She led a sheltered life. Julie Anne knew what the episode was about as did young Molly.

Yeah, Lisa was clearly quite sheltered.

Has Molly said anything about this episode?

Not only is Lisa a very kind Christian lady, for many years she did do scenes with innuendo: she was the one calling Cindy "strange", she was the one whose character didn't believe in God, and she was the one helping Jo after Harrison assaulted Jo in "Double Standard". Blair had a "how far can you go" competition with Sue Ann in "The Facts of Love", Blair stayed out past curfew, Blair introduced Sue Ann to marijuana, and Blair lied on multiple occasions. Early Blair was a firecracker, and it's only in later years that Blair becomes this straitlaced, conservatively-dressed Nancy Reagan clone.

Lisa never seemed to reject innuendo, with the only exception being "going all the way"; several sources state that the original idea was for Blair to lose her virginity early on in the series' run, but Lisa rejected that idea. The producers respected Lisa's decision.

Years later, the topic came up again, Lisa again rejected the story idea, and Mindy volunteered instead. Lisa declined to appear in the episode, but now says it was a mistake: that thinking back, she would now do the episode to provide a counter-point or balance to what was in the episode: Blair could have counseled Natalie not to go all the way, early in a relationship.



I don't believe Lisa is difficult. But I do believe that, after her early career, she drew some lines about projects where she wanted to be involved. She never would have lasted on Friends, for example, with its consistent racy storylines (can you imagine her doing the "juicebox" scene with David Schwimmer?).

However, Lisa isn't without controversy: Lisa seemed to be included in the Pamela Adlon tell-all about tensions behind the scenes.

Well she did say in her Bio book the facts if life and other lessons my father taught me, she said that in the earlier seasons she did more of those innuendo type shows but as she got older she realized that she shouldn’t be doing shows that go against her religion. And she also stated that she felt it was her duty as a active christian to show all the girls out there that she wasn’t that kind of a christian.

Yeah, Lisa was clearly quite sheltered.

Has Molly said anything about this episode?

In an interview with Out Magazine in 2010, the interviewer asked Molly whether she knew what the episode was about despite her young age. She said yes because her parents had lots of gay people around them, including people in her father's band. Her parents were also involved in the Harvey Milk campaign. She didn't remember specifics because she was not active in the 2nd half of the show.

Well she did say in her Bio book the facts if life and other lessons my father taught me, she said that in the earlier seasons she did more of those innuendo type shows but as she got older she realized that she shouldn’t be doing shows that go against her religion. And she also stated that she felt it was her duty as a active christian to show all the girls out there that she wasn’t that kind of a christian.

But the innudendo certainly came back in the last two episodes where Blair took control of Eastland.

In an interview with Out Magazine in 2010, the interviewer asked Molly whether she knew what the episode was about despite her young age. She said yes because her parents had lots of gay people around them, including people in her father's band. Her parents were also involved in the Harvey Milk campaign. She didn't remember specifics because she was not active in the 2nd half of the show.

Thanks! I didn't remember that interview at all!

[QUOTE=RetroGuy2000;6002822 Blair introduced Sue Ann to marijuana .[/QUOTE]

How was that Blair was so ignorant of the terminology that she thought 'roach' meant ONLY a bug- yet WAS somehow able to obtain one to try to fit in The Group?

I just wish we could have seen Blair seek out then find 'the dealer'. It would have been more unpredictable than had Jo been depicted 'getting' the beer!

How was that Blair was so ignorant of the terminology that she thought 'roach' meant ONLY a bug- yet WAS somehow able to obtain one to try to fit in The Group?

I just wish we could have seen Blair seek out then find 'the dealer'. It would have been more unpredictable than had Jo been depicted 'getting' the beer!

The one that got the good Hawaiian stuff was Tumpy.

The one that got the good Hawaiian stuff was Tumpy.

Yeah, but Blair DID get a joint which she hid in the fake lipstick! It would have been interesting to find out how she found the dealer and what Blair said to him/her!

Yeah, but Blair DID get a joint which she hid in the fake lipstick! It would have been interesting to find out how she found the dealer and what Blair said to him/her!

I think Blair got it from either Emily, Tumpy, or Gail.

We know Jo got very close, on more than one occasion. She and Eddie had eloped, and they almost did you know what on the most dirty bedspread I have ever seen in my life!

Tootie almost did it in the car!!

Thanks! I didn't remember that interview at all!

Wow! More Molly material! AWESOME!! :woohoo:

Yeah, but Blair DID get a joint which she hid in the fake lipstick! It would have been interesting to find out how she found the dealer and what Blair said to him/her!

I assume she got it from Tumpy.

I don't think Lisa should have been allowed to refuse to do "The First Time". It's like Mindy says, "Okay, I get it, but there's you as a person, and then there's you as an actor."

Lisa was hired to do a job, and she refused to do her job, citing religious reasons because of personal beliefs (sadly something many politicians do, whereas our country is supposed to operate on the principal of "separation of church and state" -- no religion in politics).

Lisa got away with it, but just think how well that would go over for any of us in our jobs if we refused to work because of religious beleifs.

I don't think Lisa should have been allowed to refuse to do "The First Time". It's like Mindy says, "Okay, I get it, but there's you as a person, and then there's you as an actor."

Lisa was hired to do a job, and she refused to do her job, citing religious reasons because of personal beliefs (sadly something many politicians do, whereas our country is supposed to operate on the principal of "separation of church and state" -- no religion in politics).

Lisa got away with it, but just think how well that would go over for any of us in our jobs if we refused to work because of religious beleifs.

Well, I don't do any work episode where there's a sex scene, either. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

I don't think Lisa should have been allowed to refuse to do "The First Time". It's like Mindy says, "Okay, I get it, but there's you as a person, and then there's you as an actor."

Lisa was hired to do a job, and she refused to do her job, citing religious reasons because of personal beliefs (sadly something many politicians do, whereas our country is supposed to operate on the principal of "separation of church and state" -- no religion in politics).

Lisa got away with it, but just think how well that would go over for any of us in our jobs if we refused to work because of religious beleifs.

Lisa has said that she would have done things differently if she could go back and done it again, she would have done the episode to give her point of view.

I respect Lisa's religious beliefs but Blair is Blair and Lisa is Lisa, they are two different individuals. She didn't like the message of sex before marriage at the time but she appeared in episodes where the girls drank, faked their IDs, smoked and did/talked about other controversial issues. If Lisa had said that this or that were against her beliefs everytime they had to shoot an episode, she would have missed 200 out of 201 episodes :lol::lol:

I respect Lisa's religious beliefs but Blair is Blair and Lisa is Lisa, they are two different individuals. She didn't like the message of sex before marriage at the time but she appeared in episodes where the girls drank, faked their IDs, smoked and did/talked about other controversial issues. If Lisa had said that this or that were againts her beliefs everytime they had to shoot an episode, she would have missed 200 out of 201 episodes :lol::lol:

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I don't know about 200, but definitely a lot: No "Sex Symbol", no "The Facts of Love", no "Rough Housing", no "Teenage Marriage, Part 2", no "Pretty Babies", no "Fear Strikes Back", no "Dear Me", no "The Affair", no "Runaway", no "The Source", no "I'm Dancing as Fast as I Can", no "Men For All Seasons", no "The Little Chill", no "Cupid's Revenge", and no "The First Time". And those are just the "sex" episodes!

Lisa has said that she would have done things differently if she could go back and done it again, she would have done the episode to give her point of view.

Yes, I loved hearing her say that a year or two ago. It's just a shame it took her 30 years to realize she didn't have to refuse to appear in the episode at all. :lol:

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I don't know about 200, but definitely a lot: No "Sex Symbol", no "The Facts of Love", no "Rough Housing", no "Teenage Marriage, Part 2", no "Pretty Babies", no "Fear Strikes Back", no "Dear Me", no "The Affair", no "Runaway", no "The Source", no "I'm Dancing as Fast as I Can", no "Men For All Seasons", no "The Little Chill", no "Cupid's Revenge", and no "The First Time". And those are just the "sex" episodes!

No "Dope", no "Adoption (lingerie scene),

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I don't know about 200, but definitely a lot: No "Sex Symbol", no "The Facts of Love", no "Rough Housing", no "Teenage Marriage, Part 2", no "Pretty Babies", no "Fear Strikes Back", no "Dear Me", no "The Affair", no "Runaway", no "The Source", no "I'm Dancing as Fast as I Can", no "Men For All Seasons", no "The Little Chill", no "Cupid's Revenge", and no "The First Time". And those are just the "sex" episodes!

I'm sure she would have missed a good portion of season 2 :lol::lol:

- "The New Girl" (faking IDs and drinking are against my religion)
- "Double Standard" (violence is against my religion)
- "Shoplifting" (the episode title is against my religion)

And maybe "Gossip", "Breaking Point", "Bought and Sold" and "Free Spirit" :lol:

Blair promoting premarital sex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh_-sZaik2A&t=50s

Blair promoting premarital sex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh_-sZaik2A&t=50s

I guess Lisa wasn't in the position to give "orders" regarding her character development during the first season and she accepted what the writers gave her. In season 9, they all knew the end was near and she insisted a lot to change the storyline of TFT

I guess Lisa wasn't in the position to give "orders" regarding her character development during the first season and she accepted what the writers gave her. In season 9, they all knew the end was near and she insisted a lot to change the storyline of TFT

Well, Miss Whelchel had little if any clout when the show started- being one of the teen regulars with Miss Rae being the adult undisputed star in Season One.

However, by Season Nine, Miss Whelchel being the one of the adult stars AND the producers intending to have her being THE star of their FoL Spinoff, she'd have had a LOT of clout. I mean, if they knew Miss McKeon wasn't going to stay around any more and they'd fired Miss Whelchel for refusing to have Blair be the first in The Four to admit having gone all the way, what would they have done for the spinoff? Have Natalie [Mindy Cohn] be the Eastland headmistress? Have Tootie become a drama teacher in another school with the whole thing being a 'Fame' type show?

Well, Miss Whelchel had little if any clout when the show started- being one of the teen regulars with Miss Rae being the adult undisputed star in Season One.

However, by Season Nine, Miss Whelchel being the one of the adult stars AND the producers intending to have her being THE star of their FoL Spinoff, she'd have had a LOT of clout. I mean, if they knew Miss McKeon wasn't going to stay around any more and they'd fired Miss Whelchel for refusing to have Blair be the first in The Four to admit having gone all the way, what would they have done for the spinoff? Have Natalie [Mindy Cohn] be the Eastland headmistress? Have Tootie become a drama teacher in another school with the whole thing being a 'Fame' type show?

Lisa was without a doubt the star from the beginning, but I'm sure the producers would have never fired her or the other three girls after a disagreement, especially after Mrs. Garrett + The Core 4 living together became the new premise of the show. Look what Nancy did at the start of season 6 for a pay raise, they could have fired her but they knew that her absence would have killed the show instantly

Lisa was without a doubt the star from the beginning, but I'm sure the producers would have never fired her or the other three girls after a disagreement, especially after Mrs. Garrett + The Core 4 living together became the new premise of the show. Look what Nancy did at the start of season 6 for a pay raise, they could have fired her but they knew that her absence would have killed the show instantly

Just imagine if they'd brought back "that Sue Ann". Molly wouldn't dared have come near the studio, Felice was committed to her education, and Julie Anne had mostly left the business. But I bet if they asked Julie Pie to return to the show she would have jumped on board: "What time do you need me there?"

Blair, Sue Ann, Natalie, and Tootie...would've been a throwback to "the gang" as it was when season 1 ended.

Just imagine if they'd brought back "that Sue Ann". Molly wouldn't dared have come near the studio, Felice was committed to her education, and Julie Anne had mostly left the business. But I bet if they asked Julie Pie to return to the show she would have jumped on board: "What time do you need me there?"

I think you are right. Julie Pie was even studying at UCLA around that time, so she wouldn't have even had to uproot her life.


Blair, Sue Ann, Natalie, and Tootie...would've been a throwback to "the gang" as it was when season 1 ended.

Just imagine if they'd brought back "that Sue Ann". Molly wouldn't dared have come near the studio, Felice was committed to her education, and Julie Anne had mostly left the business. But I bet if they asked Julie Pie to return to the show she would have jumped on board: "What time do you need me there?"

Blair, Sue Ann, Natalie, and Tootie...would've been a throwback to "the gang" as it was when season 1 ended.

"At least our group is back together....again"

Sue Ann starts sweating "No, not again"

:lol:

"At least our group is back together....again"

Sue Ann starts sweating "No, not again"

:lol:

:lol:

But Retro's screencap just makes you wonder what the show would have been like had there been no Jo, and the cafeteria era started with Blair, Sue Ann, Natalie, and Tootie. Sue Ann running into the cafeteria with suitcases in her arms and a country-western straw hat atop her head a la "Running".

:lol:

But Retro's screencap just makes you wonder what the show would have been like had there been no Jo, and the cafeteria era started with Blair, Sue Ann, Natalie, and Tootie. Sue Ann running into the cafeteria with suitcases in her arms and a country-western straw hat atop her head a la "Running".

SUE ANN: Hey guys! I just got back from Kansas City, Kansas, and boy, am I sure beat!

BLAIR: Sue Annnnnnn!!!!!!

NATALIE: There's our Midwest girl!

The four girls EMBRACE, AD-LIBBING comments.

BLAIR: It's so good to see you. How's your mom? And Tiger?

SUE ANN: It's good to see you, too, Blair. You're such a good friend. Anyone else starving? I wonder if the cafeteria has any rice pudding.

TOOTIE: C'mon, I'll show you what they've got.

:lol:

SUE ANN: Hey guys! I just got back from Kansas City, Kansas, and boy, am I sure beat!

BLAIR: Sue Annnnnnn!!!!!!

NATALIE: There's our Midwest girl!

The four girls EMBRACE, AD-LIBBING comments.

BLAIR: It's so good to see you. How's your mom? And Tiger?

SUE ANN: It's good to see you, too, Blair. You're such a good friend. Anyone else starving? I wonder if the cafeteria has any rice pudding.

TOOTIE: C'mon, I'll show you what they've got.

Sue Ann: I caught some fish from Miller's Pond and brought them so we can cook them up.

Blair: That sounds so wholesome that I could barf.

Sue Ann: I caught some fish from Miller's Pond and brought them so we can cook them up.

Blair: That sounds so wholesome that I could barf.

Good one! :lol:

I would have absolutely loved it, if the writers had kept SUE ANN! (just imagine the dynamic between BLAIR, SUE ANN, NAT and TOOTIE lol!) just awesome!

:mango:mango:mango:mango:mango:mango:mango:mango:mango:mango

I think you are right. Julie Pie was even studying at UCLA around that time, so she wouldn't have even had to uproot her life.

Was Sue Ann originally considered to be the "fourth girl" going into the second season before the producers decided to bring in Nancy McKeon's Jo character? I'm assuming that there were already plans to pair the main cast down and retool the show in some shape or form.

Was Sue Ann originally considered to be the "fourth girl" going into the second season before the producers decided to bring in Nancy McKeon's Jo character? I'm assuming that there were already plans to pair the main cast down and retool the show in some shape or form.

There are many stories about who was going to be the fourth girl. One documentary says Julie Anne Haddock (Cindy) was the last girl fired, another one states Felice (Nancy) was going to be one of the Core Four, Molly claims she was first kept and then fired and Julie Piekarski (Sue Ann) was with the other girls in the last scene of the season 1 finale.

:lol:

But Retro's screencap just makes you wonder what the show would have been like had there been no Jo, and the cafeteria era started with Blair, Sue Ann, Natalie, and Tootie. Sue Ann running into the cafeteria with suitcases in her arms and a country-western straw hat atop her head a la "Running".

Or Blair, Cindy, Tootie and Natalie ;)

Was Sue Ann originally considered to be the "fourth girl" going into the second season before the producers decided to bring in Nancy McKeon's Jo character? I'm assuming that there were already plans to pair the main cast down and retool the show in some shape or form.

We will likely never know the full truth, and as ITA says above, each source gives a different answer on who the "fourth girl" might have been. Watching the end of Season One, you can see how prominent Sue Ann's role was, and she gets the final "group hug" with Mrs. Garrett and the Core Three, while the other Lost Girls are downstairs, packing their bags to move into the Lost Girls' basement: literally, Nancy is seen taking boxes downstairs as she laments about how she didn't get into "The Group".

Newspapers of that time do indicate the cast knew there would be a purge over the summer months, with two newspapers strangely indicating Nancy/Felice would be kept on. Yet one FOL documentary states Julie Anne/Cindy was "the last to face expulsion", and Molly states she was originally going to be kept on, before she was bumped off by Nancy McKeon.

What is clear is that even during the last few episodes of Season One, the writers seem to be telegraphing at least some of the producers' decision: Nancy, Cindy, and Mr. Bradley are hardly seen in the last two episodes, being written out of the majority of those scripts. Nancy's role seems to have been significantly reduced after the December 1979 retooling.

Nancy is seen taking boxes downstairs as she laments about how she didn't get into "The Group".

Ha, nice point, although I always assume she's simply taking her boxes of private belonging down the hall back to her own room. (I think I always assume that room in that final scene is supposed to be Natalie and Tootie's room--yet Blair and Sue Ann walk in? I don't know. That room has such a mercurial history!)

Newspapers of that time do indicate the cast knew there would be a purge over the summer months, with two newspapers strangely indicating Nancy/Felice would be kept on. Yet one FOL documentary states Julie Anne/Cindy was "the last to face expulsion", and Molly states she was originally going to be kept on, before she was bumped off by Nancy McKeon.

My personal feelings are that the last girl was either Julie Anne or Molly.

We already know Felice was phone-fired first (what a coincidence, as Nancy LIVED for the phone), and nothing has ever stated Julie Pie was to be kept on.


What is clear is that even during the last few episodes of Season One, the writers seem to be telegraphing at least some of the producers' decision: Nancy, Cindy, and Mr. Bradley are hardly seen in the last two episodes, being written out of the majority of those scripts.

I don't like that kind of negative view on my favorite Facts of Life girl. :lol: Cindy and Molly have about the same amount to do in "Dope", which is comparable to some of their other episodes. But Nancy only has that one little moment with Mrs. Garrett before exiting the studio.

Ha, nice point, although I always assume she's simply taking her boxes of private belonging down the hall back to her own room. (I think I always assume that room in that final scene is supposed to be Natalie and Tootie's room--yet Blair and Sue Ann walk in? I don't know. That room has such a mercurial history!)

I also believe that's Chez Nat and Toot. Yes, Blair and Sue Ann enter, but they don't say anything about it being their room. Ergo, it's Natalie and Tootie's dorm room, which just happens to look just like Molly's room and also Blair's room.


My personal feelings are that the last girl was either Julie Anne or Molly.

We already know Felice was phone-fired first (what a coincidence, as Nancy LIVED for the phone), and nothing has ever stated Julie Pie was to be kept on.

That I'm not sure about. I seem to recall at least one newspaper stating Sue Ann would stay.


I don't like that kind of negative view on my favorite Facts of Life girl. :lol: Cindy and Molly have about the same amount to do in "Dope", which is comparable to some of their other episodes. But Nancy only has that one little moment with Mrs. Garrett before exiting the studio.

I'd argue that Nancy's part is far more prominent and memorable than anything Cindy and Molly do in "Dope". And of course, Nancy and Cindy get put on a bus (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PutOnABus) halfway through "Molly's Holiday".

Sue Ann: I caught some fish from Miller's Pond and brought them so we can cook them up.

Blair: That sounds so wholesome that I could barf.

:lol:

There are many stories about who was going to be the fourth girl. One documentary says Julie Anne Haddock (Cindy) was the last girl fired, another one states Felice (Nancy) was going to be one of the Core Four, Molly claims she was first kept and then fired and Julie Piekarski (Sue Ann) was with the other girls in the last scene of the season 1 finale.



Or Blair, Cindy, Tootie and Natalie ;)

Pretty much everyone is in agreement that Felice was the first one fired. As for the last one being fired or being the original 4th girl, no one knows for sure, but lots of evidence points toward Molly. Besides Molly, we have had other people say that it was Molly. The TV Guide documentary said the older girls were let go first and then it came down to deciding which of the two preteens to keep. Molly was featured in all the promos along with Blair, Tootie, and Natalie. We know the Felice was in the basement when she got the news, Julie Anne was at her brother's baseball game while Molly got the news in the production offices.

Ha, nice point, although I always assume she's simply taking her boxes of private belonging down the hall back to her own room. (I think I always assume that room in that final scene is supposed to be Natalie and Tootie's room--yet Blair and Sue Ann walk in? I don't know. That room has such a mercurial history!)



My personal feelings are that the last girl was either Julie Anne or Molly.

We already know Felice was phone-fired first (what a coincidence, as Nancy LIVED for the phone), and nothing has ever stated Julie Pie was to be kept on.




I don't like that kind of negative view on my favorite Facts of Life girl. :lol: Cindy and Molly have about the same amount to do in "Dope", which is comparable to some of their other episodes. But Nancy only has that one little moment with Mrs. Garrett before exiting the studio.

Felice got the news while in the basement. She should have listened to Mrs. Garrett's advice to Cindy not to go into the basement.

Felice got the news while in the basement. She should have listened to Mrs. Garrett's advice to Cindy not to go into the basement.

Yes! Never go to the Eastland basement! You'll either get a phone call that you're fired, or you'll get electrizzifed! ;):lol:

Yes! Never go to the Eastland basement! You'll either get a phone call that you're fired, or you'll get electrizzifed! ;):lol:

Or you unintentionally strip the wax from the floor with Blair's $30 whine/wine [roughly $92 in today's money]!

Or you unintentionally strip the wax from the floor with Blair's $30 whine/wine [roughly $92 in today's money]!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

What is clear is that even during the last few episodes of Season One, the writers seem to be telegraphing at least some of the producers' decision: Nancy, Cindy, and Mr. Bradley are hardly seen in the last two episodes, being written out of the majority of those scripts. Nancy's role seems to have been significantly reduced after the December 1979 retooling.

It will always be a mystery. I don't know if the writers had already decided by the time the first season was ending or if it was a mere coincedence that they were using the same girls for the remaining episodes.

Pretty much everyone is in agreement that Felice was the first one fired. As for the last one being fired or being the original 4th girl, no one knows for sure, but lots of evidence points toward Molly. Besides Molly, we have had other people say that it was Molly. The TV Guide documentary said the older girls were let go first and then it came down to deciding which of the two preteens to keep. Molly was featured in all the promos along with Blair, Tootie, and Natalie. We know the Felice was in the basement when she got the news, Julie Anne was at her brother's baseball game while Molly got the news in the production offices.

Honestly, I can't decide between Molly and Julie Anne. Molly's theory was supported by the fact that she was the first girl to appear after the retool. On the other hand, Jo was a lot like Cindy (I would say a composite of Cindy and Sue Ann). We'll never know if they were planning to keep the tomboy character (Cindy) and fire the other girls.

I also believe that's Chez Nat and Toot. Yes, Blair and Sue Ann enter, but they don't say anything about it being their room. Ergo, it's Natalie and Tootie's dorm room, which just happens to look just like Molly's room and also Blair's room.

It's really, really weird. Tootie, Nancy, and Natalie are in there. Blair and Sue Ann enter as if it's their room or a communal girls' room, but Mr. Bradley says he's inspecting Blair's room next (having still her own private room, apparently). But it feels weird that two older teenage girls with drugs on their person (Blair's) would go into a room of younger girls right after leaving The Group. Such a strange set-up.


That I'm not sure about. I seem to recall at least one newspaper stating Sue Ann would stay.

Oh? Interesting!


I'd argue that Nancy's part is far more prominent and memorable than anything Cindy and Molly do in "Dope". And of course, Nancy and Cindy get put on a bus (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PutOnABus) halfway through "Molly's Holiday".

I just think Cindy and Molly's parts are comparable to other episodes they're in. They're on the set more than Nancy is, I believe for 3 scenes, compared to Nancy's little 1. "Dope" may indeed be Nancy's least screen time, with only that one moment with Mrs. Garrett.

PrJulie Anne was at her brother's baseball game while Molly got the news in the production offices.

Molly's theory is supported by the fact that she was the first girl to appear after the retool.

I don't know that that's what went down. My theory is that Molly was called at home, like the others, but she was so devastated and her mother was so upset that she drove Molly to the studio to confront them in person over what was going on, and to try and save her daughter's part on the show. But the execs were firm, while sorry, and said that that's the way it was going to be, but they offered to have Molly on a semi-regular to try and appease mother and daughter.

And I think that's why Molly appeared back first, as the show's way to show her, "We would still love to have you on when we can," and hopefully smooth things over.

That's my own personal theory.

We do know that after doing her part in season 2, Molly's mother asked her if she really wanted to do this (i.e., be demoted to appearing just semi-regularly), and Molly admitted, no, she didn't. And that was that.

I don't know that that's what went down. My theory is that Molly was called at home, like the others, but she was so devastated and her mother was so upset that she drove Molly to the studio to confront them in person over what was going on, and to try and save her daughter's part on the show. But the execs were firm, while sorry, and said that that's the way it was going to be, but they offered to have Molly on a semi-regular to try and appease mother and daughter.

And I think that's why Molly appeared back first, as the show's way to show her, "We would still love to have you on when we can," and hopefully smooth things over.

That's my own personal theory.

We do know that after doing her part in season 2, Molly's mother asked her if she really wanted to do this (i.e., be demoted to appearing just semi-regularly), and Molly admitted, no, she didn't. And that was that.

Interesting :lol:

I have another theory. They were all offered a guest spot on "The New Girl: Part 2" but everyone turned down the offer, except Molly.

Interesting :lol:

I have another theory. They were all offered a guest spot on "The New Girl: Part 2" but everyone turned down the offer, except Molly.

I don't think the Julies or Felice were turning down any roles on FOL. In a news article, Felice described her guest appearances as having negotiations: she negotiated the number ahead of time, and was able to get a number she was pleased with. She wasn't turning down appearances, and she ended up with more episodes than anyone else.

This is unlike the situation with Geri, who had hoped to become a regular on the show, but the producers offered her only one episode. When she turned them down, that was it. No more Geri Warner/Tyler. Lisa brought Geri to tapings, in the hopes that that would cause the producers to see her, and offer her some kind of part, but it never happened.

I don't think the Julies or Felice were turning down any roles on FOL. In a news article, Felice described her guest appearances as having negotiations: she negotiated the number ahead of time, and was able to get a number she was pleased with. She wasn't turning down appearances, and she ended up with more episodes than anyone else.

This is unlike the situation with Geri, who had hoped to become a regular on the show, but the producers offered her only one episode. When she turned them down, that was it. No more Geri Warner/Tyler. Lisa brought Geri to tapings, in the hopes that that would cause the producers to see her, and offer her some kind of part, but it never happened.

They were probably hurted for the retool but they later agreed to make guest appearences. Interesting that Felice appeared in more episodes than the Julies

In a news article, Felice described her guest appearances as having negotiations: she negotiated the number ahead of time, and was able to get a number she was pleased with. She wasn't turning down appearances, and she ended up with more episodes than anyone else.

Interesting...but it sounds like she sure didn't know how to negotiate very well, as it turns out she was only in a small number of cafeteria episodes.

Interesting...but it sounds like she sure didn't know how to negotiate very well, as it turns out she was only in a small number of cafeteria episodes.

I think she negotiated better than The Julies, for example. She managed to land five cafeteria episodes. Did anyone else manage better than that, aside from Charles Parker/Roger Perry and Geri Jewell (who was specifically brought on by Norman Lear)?

They were probably hurted for the retool but they later agreed to make guest appearences. Interesting that Felice appeared in more episodes than the Julies

I'm sure they felt hurt (Felice says it felt like a "rejection"), but they were consummate professionals who stuck with the show, even when they were demoted to extra (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemotedToExtra). I really wish we'd seen them in Season 4, and maybe beyond (wouldn't it have been cool to see Cindy and Molly in Season 5 before the change of venue?), but it's cool that we do see them through most of the Eastland years.

I think she negotiated better than The Julies, for example. She managed to land five cafeteria episodes. Did anyone else manage better than that, aside from Charles Parker/Roger Perry and Geri Jewell (who was specifically brought on by Norman Lear)?

"land five" :lol:

I get the feeling the Julies didn't care about going to a level of negotiating and were casual and just ready to show up when the show wanted them. :) They "landed three" without even asking (as far as I know). We've only heard of Felice fiercely negotiating for 5 episodes over 3 years, lol. What would be more impressive as a teenage girl in the 1980s is if she managed to land 5 episodes per season, at the very least.

I suppose the episodes they did appear in was what the show had in mind as "semi-regulars," though personally I think they should have more episodes for that status, like at least 7 or 8 shows a year.

I'm sure they felt hurt (Felice says it felt like a "rejection"), but they were consummate professionals who stuck with the show, even when they were demoted to extra (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemotedToExtra).

They weren't demoted to extras though because extras don't have lines. Thankfully, our girls had roles. :) (not like "Nina" in RH :lol: )

I would, however, concede to "glorified extra" for someone having simply two or three lines.

They weren't demoted to extras though because extras don't have lines. Thankfully, our girls had roles. :) (not like "Nina" in RH :lol: )

I would, however, concede to "glorified extra" for someone having simply two or three lines.

I don't take "demoted to extra" to mean "literally no lines": just close to it. The examples from the TV Trope site include Suzanne Somers' Season 5 cameos (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DemotedToExtra/LiveActionTV), where she had around four lines on the phone in the "Chrissy Minute" portion of the episodes.

"land five" :lol:

I get the feeling the Julies didn't care about going to a level of negotiating and were casual and just ready to show up when the show wanted them. :) They "landed three" without even asking (as far as I know). We've only heard of Felice fiercely negotiating for 5 episodes over 3 years, lol. What would be more impressive as a teenage girl in the 1980s is if she managed to land 5 episodes per season, at the very least.

I suppose the episodes they did appear in was what the show had in mind as "semi-regulars," though personally I think they should have more episodes for that status, like at least 7 or 8 shows a year.

I would have LOVED seven or eight episodes per year... but the producers weren't interested in giving anyone that level of exposure, outside of their core actors. Even in later years, when George Clooney went from being full-time fully-billed opening credit actor to guest appearances, he did only four episodes.

I would have LOVED seven or eight episodes per year... but the producers weren't interested in giving anyone that level of exposure, outside of their core actors. Even in later years, when George Clooney went from being full-time fully-billed opening credit actor to guest appearances, he did only four episodes.

I read somewhere that if someone appears more than 5 times in a series, they have to be in the opening credits of the show per an agreement with the Screen Actor's Guild.

I read somewhere that if someone appears more than 5 times in a series, they have to be in the opening credits of the show per an agreement with the Screen Actor's Guild.

I saw someone else say the same thing but it’s not true. You can find many examples of actors appearing in more than five episodes in a season and still appearing the closing credits. John Ratzenberger in season 1 of Cheers, Kelsey Grammer in seasons 2 and 3 of Cheers, William H Macy in ER; many actors on the 80s nighttime soaps too.

I saw someone else say the same thing but it’s not true. You can find many examples of actors appearing in more than five episodes in a season and still appearing the closing credits. John Ratzenberger in season 1 of Cheers, Kelsey Grammer in seasons 2 and 3 of Cheers, William H Macy in ER; many actors on the 80s nighttime soaps too.

Opening credits, not closing credits.

I read somewhere that if someone appears more than 5 times in a series, they have to be in the opening credits of the show per an agreement with the Screen Actor's Guild.

Adelaide and Pearl, the housekeepers on DS, appearead in several episodes but Nedra Volz was never billed in the opening credits while Mary Jo Catlett had to wait a full season. I guess rules were different back then

Opening credits, not closing credits.

I think he meant those actors were still appearing in the closing credits, not the opening, despite appearing more than five times.

That "rule" is definitely not true because the same also goes for Bebe Neuwirth on Cheers. She was in many episodes in seasons 6 - 11, but was only in the opening credits for season 10 (and I believe her few appearances in season 11). And Woody's girlfriend Kelly was never in the opening credits.

Neither were "Stan" on The Golden Girls or "Bernice" in Designing Women (until the final episode of DW, where instead of an opening theme they just showed the credit names during the show's beginning moments, and in season 7 it said something akin to "and Alice Ghostley as Bernice Clifton")

Things may depend on time and network. In her book "Here We Go Again! My Life in Television" Betty White says that she signed for 7 out of 13 shows of "Mama's Family" for its first season (a short season of 13 episodes), and that was "a legal breakpoint"; anything beyond that would have made her exclusive to the series, meaning she couldn't have done work elsewhere. So she did her role Ellen as a recurring character, while free to pursue other projects.

I came across an interesting photo of Lisa early in the series. I will post it once I find it. Lisa was not the goody two shoes and was a rebel at that time of her life.