Davey Jones - Excellent choice
Mickey Dolenz - Excellent choice
Peter Tork - Horrible choice
Peter Nesmith - Horrible choice

Nesmith and Tork, just a year into the show, revolted and took over the show, and ran it into the ground.

They wanted a few edgy characters, but wound up with two edgy characters, and two lunatics.

In your own opinion.

Don't see why you'd ask such a question.

I think all were great choices especially Michael Nesmith who was IMO the most talented of the group. I would say that the horrible choices were the cast of the New Monkees, now there's an idea that was doomed from the start. :rolleyes:

I asked the question because Nesmith and Tork turned a huge success into a train wreck in two years.

There was the conflict of "is this a music group or a tv show?" that haunted both sides of the business venture.

Since Nesmith and Tork had more musical ability than the other two, it's quite predictable that they would be part of a schism once the music was more lucrative than the TV.

The real problem was that the entire venture was a hoax, and the public was completely seduced by it. And once the public started demanding that the illusion be made real, problems were inevitable.

Davy Jones was made the lead vocalist because he was cute and had teenybop appeal, while Mickey Dolenz was a much more accomplished vocalist, and hardly a drummer, at all. Tork had more instrumental skill than all the rest put together, and Nesmith was a talented writer

The TV studio execs screwed up their roles to suit certain benchmarks, making all the cast members perform in roles that other members were better suited for.

And, when the deception blew up in the studios faces, Tork and Nesmith were the most capable of fixing the problems

So, for me anyway, it's hard to fault the two as you are doing.

Now, if the phenomenal success on the music charts had never taken place, and the enterprise had remained exclusive to "4 zany guys pretending to be musicians" then yes, I would agree with you.

But the public at the time was not willing to allow that to happen. The Public was demanding that the illusion either be made real, or go away entirely. Once the scandal was made public, then the TV show would have died regardless.

Funny thing of it all is, lots of groups of that time period were not playing their own instruments on their studio albums, the Monkees just happened to get caught

The real problem was that the entire venture was a hoax, and the public was completely seduced by it. And once the public started demanding that the illusion be made real, problems were inevitable.


This is pretty much it. They were faking and were caught by their own success.

I'm actually surprised that they even let the cast sing, unlike most of the Partridge Family.

I didn't put this post in the Michael Nesmith Dies thread because it's probably not in the best of taste, but everything I've seen about Nesmith seems to indicate he was a pretty awful person. He seemed to have a huge undeserved ego evidently bought and paid for with his mother's Liquid Paper fortune. He may have had a very small cult musical following, but the stories of his temper tantrums and empty boasts have become his legacy.

I asked the question because Nesmith and Tork turned a huge success into a train wreck in two years.

If they were bad choices it probably wouldn't have gotten a 2nd season.

If they were bad choices it probably wouldn't have gotten a 2nd season.

2 seasons for a smashing success? The show was hugely popular. The reason the show wasn't renewed for a THIRD season was because of Tork and Nesmith.

I feel bad for Mickey Dolenz and Davey Jones. They were shackled to Tork and Nesmith the rest of their lives, and had to pretend their great gig wasn't ruined by Tork and Nesmith.

I saw an interview where Jones pretty much hinted that after the first year, "everybody wanted to do everybody else's jobs, and ruined the whole thing." I'm sure by "everybody" he was referring to Tork and Nesmith.

2 seasons for a smashing success? The show was hugely popular. The reason the show wasn't renewed for a THIRD season was because of Tork and Nesmith.

I feel bad for Mickey Dolenz and Davey Jones. They were shackled to Tork and Nesmith the rest of their lives, and had to pretend their great gig wasn't ruined by Tork and Nesmith.

I saw an interview where Jones pretty much hinted that after the first year, "everybody wanted to do everybody else's jobs, and ruined the whole thing." I'm sure by "everybody" he was referring to Tork and Nesmith.

Maybe so, but Mike Nesmith is my favorite, so I'd rather have just two seasons with him than six or seven seasons with a different guy instead. If they didn't become a real band, they simply could have had a cast change and wrote Mike and Peter out, and replaced them, but by that point, The Monkees were more of a band than the cast of a TV sitcom.

A bit confused by how 4 guys who had lifetime success as The Monkees were "doomed" :confused:

I don't think Mr. Dolenz would have pleaded with either Mr. Nesmith or Mr. Tork to tour with them after Mr. Jones's passing if he didn't think they didn't each have talents that contributed to the sound.

Oh, and I DO think they also added good comedic elements to the show.

What I would hope everyone would be mindful of, while it started out being a TV show about 4 young musicians, the success of the music transformed it into 4 pop stars with a TV show. Impressionable youth would have it no other way. Then, as the "scandal" unfolded no one was going to continue watching the TV show, because just claiming you were a Monkees fan guaranteed you would be the target of ridicule. There is no way the TV show could have continued.

The only recipe for survival was to resurrect the music aspect. And Nesmith and Tork were the most capable of the 4 to make a go of that. The only path forward included them out of necessity

I remember buying "Headquarters", and being disappointed with it. It didn't have the sound I associated with them. Time has been kind to that album, now the critical opinion is much more favorable looking back.

2 seasons for a smashing success?
Shush.

I believe the prospect of the Monkees tv show getting a renewal (at that time) would have gone over about as well as if Bill Cosby got a new sitcom today.

A bit confused by how 4 guys who had lifetime success as The Monkees were "doomed" :confused:

They didn't have a "lifetime success." They were typecast into a lifetime nostalgia act, that occasionally gave them a little money.

I don't think Mr. Dolenz would have pleaded with either Mr. Nesmith or Mr. Tork to tour with them after Mr. Jones's passing if he didn't think they didn't each have talents that contributed to the sound.

Oh, and I DO think they also added good comedic elements to the show.

Mickey Dolenz was shackled to Tork and Nesmith because they were all typecast as Monkees. And the Monkees was about the only real stream of revenue open to Dolenz. Without the Monkees, Dolenz pretty much has zero.

They didn't have a "lifetime success." They were typecast into a lifetime nostalgia act, that occasionally gave them a little money.Hogwash. The Monkees was one of the most popular 60s bands. You starting a thread like this bashing Michael Nesmith (Michael, not Peter like you said in opening post) shortly after his death is in poor taste.

What I would hope everyone would be mindful of, while it started out being a TV show about 4 young musicians, the success of the music transformed it into 4 pop stars with a TV show. Impressionable youth would have it no other way. Then, as the "scandal" unfolded no one was going to continue watching the TV show, because just claiming you were a Monkees fan guaranteed you would be the target of ridicule. There is no way the TV show could have continued.

The only recipe for survival was to resurrect the music aspect. And Nesmith and Tork were the most capable of the 4 to make a go of that. The only path forward included them out of necessity

I don't buy the whole "Nesmith and Tork were great musicians" stuff. Neither one of them ever wrote a good song in their lives. Tork's claim to fame is that he knew Neil Young.

So both Tork and Nesmith knew how to play the guitar. And Tork knew how to play a banjo. As far as can be told, neither one of them were more talented than the local High School music teacher.

Hogwash. The Monkees was one of the most popular 60s bands. You starting a thread like this bashing Michael Nesmith (Michael, not Peter like you said in opening post) shortly after his death is in poor taste.

I didn't start this thread after his death. I started the thread before his death. Look at the date of the original post.

Looking back with hindsight, (with benefit of the knowledge that the "band" was fake) I wonder if the decision to call them the "Monkees" was a satirical poke at the old adage about locking 100 monkeys in a room with 100 typewriters?

I didn't start this thread after his death. I started the thread before his death. Look at the date of the original post.Maybe it was started before his death, but you've repeated your point you hate Michael Nesmith and Peter Tork plenty of times now after his death.

I don't buy the whole "Nesmith and Tork were great musicians" stuff. Neither one of them ever wrote a good song in their lives. Tork's claim to fame is that he knew Neil Young.
.

I don''t see how you are making the leap from my statement that the two were the most capable of the 4....to your christening them to be "great musicians"?


The show NEVER would have been the success it was, without the music success. The music was largely the work of Boyce & Hart and a group of studio musicians now known as the Wrecking crew.. But kiddies listening to those tunes, and following the pied piper to the television dial...made the show what it was.

When the hoax was exposed, the Monkess imploded. Nobody wanted to be associated with the fraud.

Dolenz and Jones were completely incapable of doing anything to salvage anything from the smoldering wreckage. Nesmith and Tork had some ability plus initiative...and for the latter they deserve credit.

Roger McGuinn and David Crosby (nor any other if the then "great" talents in the industry) were not going to come in and risk their reputations to fix the fiasco. So it was either Tork and Nesmith, or nobody.

Hope that clears things up.

Maybe it was started before his death, but you've repeated your point you hate Michael Nesmith and Peter Tork plenty of times now after his death.

Neither Tork, nor Nesmith, were well beloved. Except by you I guess.

Neither Tork, nor Nesmith, were well beloved. Except by you I guess.The Monkees were a well liked group as a whole. You don't see how repeatedly bashing someone right after their death is wrong and tasteless. :rolleyes:

I don''t see how you are making the leap from my statement that the two were the most capable of the 4....to your christening them to be "great musicians"?


The show NEVER would have been the success it was, without the music success. The music was largely the work of Boyce & Hart and a group of studio musicians now known as the Wrecking crew.. But kiddies listening to those tunes, and following the pied piper to the television dial...made the show what it was.

When the hoax was exposed, the Monkess imploded. Nobody wanted to be associated with the fraud.

Dolenz and Jones were completely incapable of doing anything to salvage anything from the smoldering wreckage. Nesmith and Tork had some ability plus initiative...and for the latter they deserve credit.

Roger McGuinn and David Crosby (nor any other if the then "great" talents in the industry) were not going to come in and risk their reputations to fix the fiasco. So it was either Tork and Nesmith, or nobody.

Hope that clears things up.

Well I certainly don't think recasting Tork or Nesmith was an option. They had the cast and that was that.

My main gripe with Tork and Nesmith is the appearance that they bit the hand that fed them. They were given a great gig, and were unhappy they couldn't be the real thing. So, they tried to force it and the whole thing collapsed.

I suppose there are alternative interpretations of what happened, and I accept that. But I just can't see how Jones and Dolenz weren't victimized by how things went down. They were happy to get the great gig and didn't want to rock the boat.

I suppose there are alternative interpretations of what happened, and I accept that. But I just can't see how Jones and Dolenz weren't victimized by how things went down. They were happy to get the great gig and didn't want to rock the boat.

Not to "bash" you, but how old are you? Were you around at the time?

There was considerable disgrace. Being a Monkees fan was similar to being a wrestling fan when first finding out it wasn't real.

Just so you will know...I am not a particularly big fan of Nesmith's musical tastes. His "Sunny Girl Friend" composition on the Headquarters album was a lot like fingernails on a chalk board to my teenage ears.

But, He and Tork are deserving accolades for their willingness to roll up their sleeves, and unclog the sewer, so to speak.

If you are thinking that the TV Show could have continued with Dolenz, Jones, and two stooges willing to cooperate, I believe you are dead wrong. The music scandal killed the lightning in the bottle aspect....and the TV show cancellation was collateral damage.

As I recall, at the time of their ascendance, Nesmith was seen as the "cool" guy, he had the hat and side burns. Davey was the "cute" guy who made the young girls swoon.
Dolenz was whimsical and dangerous (from a comedic aspect), and Tork was the dud, he was the straight man at the peril of the others......and he could play keyboards

So, you take away the "cool" guy, and (imo) you have a problem

Not to "bash" you, but how old are you? Were you around at the time?

There was considerable disgrace. Being a Monkees fan was similar to being a wrestling fan when first finding out it wasn't real.

Just so you will know...I am not a particularly big fan of Nesmith's musical tastes. His "Sunny Girl Friend" composition on the Headquarters album was a lot like fingernails on a chalk board to my teenage ears.

But, He and Tork are deserving accolades for their willingness to roll up their sleeves, and unclog the sewer, so to speak.

If you are thinking that the TV Show could have continued with Dolenz, Jones, and two stooges willing to cooperate, I believe you are dead wrong. The music scandal killed the lightning in the bottle aspect....and the TV show cancellation was collateral damage.

As I recall, at the time of their ascendance, Nesmith was seen as the "cool" guy, he had the hat and side burns. Davey was the "cute" guy who made the young girls swoon.
Dolenz was whimsical and dangerous (from a comedic aspect), and Tork was the dud, he was the straight man at the peril of the others......and he could play keyboards

So, you take away the "cool" guy, and (imo) you have a problem

How old am I? I can imagine you can infer from my participation on this board, and in this thread, to be old enough to remember the events first hand.

Let's put it this way. I remember cutting the 45 of "I'm not your stepping stone" out of a cereal box and playing it on my record player.

Though I do have to admit, my understanding of the entertainment industry at the time was that of a person who's age at the time could be measured by the counting of the fingers on both hands. LOL

Not to "bash" you, but how old are you? Were you around at the time?

There was considerable disgrace. Being a Monkees fan was similar to being a wrestling fan when first finding out it wasn't real.

Just so you will know...I am not a particularly big fan of Nesmith's musical tastes. His "Sunny Girl Friend" composition on the Headquarters album was a lot like fingernails on a chalk board to my teenage ears.

But, He and Tork are deserving accolades for their willingness to roll up their sleeves, and unclog the sewer, so to speak.

If you are thinking that the TV Show could have continued with Dolenz, Jones, and two stooges willing to cooperate, I believe you are dead wrong. The music scandal killed the lightning in the bottle aspect....and the TV show cancellation was collateral damage.

As I recall, at the time of their ascendance, Nesmith was seen as the "cool" guy, he had the hat and side burns. Davey was the "cute" guy who made the young girls swoon.
Dolenz was whimsical and dangerous (from a comedic aspect), and Tork was the dud, he was the straight man at the peril of the others......and he could play keyboards

So, you take away the "cool" guy, and (imo) you have a problem

As for Nesmith being "seen" as the cool guy, I'd say he was "marketed" as the cool guy.

Every single thing about that band was created by the producers. There was nothing cool about Nesmith at all. He was a knucklehead from day one. But that was the product created by the producers.

The problem was, the Monkees suddenly believed they were what they were marketed as. They believed their own, pre-fabbed, publicity. And they got too big to control, and it all collapsed.

Yes, I agree that the "scandal" got too big for the farce to continue. My beef was Torks and Nesmith's over-inflated egos, which derived from fantasy in their own minds. They had nothing of substance to offer, other than the pre-fabbed persona's created for them by the producers. If it weren't for the Monkees, we would not even know they existed. And it was all handed to them. It did not derive from their own talent, but the marketing talent and machine of a major TV studio.

Well, they can't hurt anyone anymore, there should be some consolation in that?

Well, they can't hurt anyone anymore, there should be some consolation in that?


No, they can't. It is however quite amazing, that you and I, and millions of other people, know their names and have discussions about them, despite their absolute lack of ability or attractiveness of personality.

I was completely taken in by the deception, felt gut punched by the scandal, and hated them for the perceived sense of betrayal.

And immediately replaced them with bands that were just as fake, but just didn't realize it at the time.

Really wasn't until years later that I accepted them again, mostly as a fascination with the mass deception aspect.

Despite all the claims of youth to embody rebelliousness, kids of that age want desperately to "belong" to a perceived worthwhile cause. Monkeemania became that. Rafelson/Schneider tapped into the same sense of need that Charles Manson so expertly exploited in his victims.

I find it very interesting.

I was completely taken in by the deception, felt gut punched by the scandal, and hated them for the perceived sense of betrayal.

And immediately replaced them with bands that were just as fake, but just didn't realize it at the time.

Really wasn't until years later that I accepted them again, mostly as a fascination with the mass deception aspect.

Despite all the claims of youth to embody rebelliousness, kids of that age want desperately to "belong" to a perceived worthwhile cause. Monkeemania became that. Rafelson/Schneider tapped into the same sense of need that Charles Manson so expertly exploited in his victims.

I find it very interesting.

It wasn't the Monkees that should have been the scandal. It should have been the entire music industry that should have been the scandal. The way it is run, even to this day, is horrific, exploitative and deceptive in the extreme.

I have trouble listening to any music without thinking in the back of my mind the little people who are exploited to make the machine work.