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Begins at about the 5:06 mark.

To me, maybe cute isn't the word to use. All that I know is that even though Steve was crazy about Laura, he knew where the line was. When he was able to get Johnny Gill to sing for Laura, she was to then give Steve a kiss in return for his doing her such a huge favor, but when it came time for that kiss to happen, he couldn't go through with it because of why it was happening. He said that a kiss from her had to be voluntary instead of being the way that it was really coming across which of course was more like a business arrangement.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

Typically, I don't feel that Steve's pursuit of Laura was awful because of him stalking her.
But I feel that it was wrong because that she didn't appreciate him anyway and never deserved his neverending obsession with her.

^^^ I don't know about that. Another stand out moment was when Steve told the guy named Ted that Laura wanted her night at the prom to be with him and when Ted was like, "Why are you telling me this when you yourself are crazy about her too?" Steve then said, "Her happiness is what matters most to me." Well of course when Laura learned that Steve is the one who made another perfect night happen for her, to me, she couldn't have picked a better way to tell him, "Thank you." :) :) :)

God bless you always!!! :) :) :)

Holly

^^^ Steve then said, "Her happiness is what matters most to me."

Forgive me but that is such.. .BULL Sheviek!

If THAT were even slightly true, then he'd have left her alone and moved on to some other girl (and some other family) the FIRST time Laura (and they) told him she/they was/were not interested in him. But even after Myra showed she was interested in him AND even after he went steady with Myra, he STILL pursued Laura and made it clear that he'd dump poor Myra the instant Laura ever changed her mind. He openly said he was going to 'wear [Laura] down'!

Would YOU like to have someone around (for years on end) who refused to learn to accept being told no to keep pestering you, harassing you, your friends and dates, trespassing on your family property and constantly destroying your family's property (and lamely avoid consequences by saying 'Did *I* do that?' but NEVER saying sorry much less offering compensation),etc. ?

And Laura was far more polite than he deserved and never openly mean. ALL she ever did was simply attempt to stand up for herself but even those attempts constantly got dissed by him and ignored(and guilt tripped via him using such phrases as 'all I want is her happiness') so he could impose HIS fantasy on her!

NO, I DO NOT think it was 'cute' at all. But annoying, disturbing and criminal on his part!

the family couldnt even go anywhere on vacition without steve urkel tagging along or showing up.

Forgive me but that is such.. .BULL Sheviek!

If THAT were even slightly true, then he'd have left her alone and moved on to some other girl (and some other family) the FIRST time Laura (and they) told him she/they was/were not interested in him. But even after Myra showed she was interested in him AND even after he went steady with Myra, he STILL pursued Laura and made it clear that he'd dump poor Myra the instant Laura ever changed her mind. He openly said he was going to 'wear [Laura] down'!

Would YOU like to have someone around (for years on end) who refused to learn to accept being told no to keep pestering you, harassing you, your friends and dates, trespassing on your family property and constantly destroying your family's property (and lamely avoid consequences by saying 'Did *I* do that?' but NEVER saying sorry much less offering compensation),etc. ?

And Laura was far more polite than he deserved and never openly mean. ALL she ever did was simply attempt to stand up for herself but even those attempts constantly got dissed by him and ignored(and guilt tripped via him using such phrases as 'all I want is her happiness') so he could impose HIS fantasy on her!

NO, I DO NOT think it was 'cute' at all. But annoying, disturbing and criminal on his part!
You know, I agree with you that Steve should have given up on Laura and moved on even before he met Myra.
But I don't say that out of sympathy with Laura, because I have none.
Actually, I found her much more annoying than Steve ever was (before he decided to dump Myra for her, which is when I stopped liking him).
Laura was incredibly shallow at times and really mean towards Steve during the first seasons of the show.
Really, I guess I can relate more to Myra and her predilection for nerdy guys and only rarely care for Laura at all.
And as for Steve and the rest of the Winslows, you have to remember that his parents were extremely neglective towards him.
I don't remember that we ever heard one positive thing about them.
And that is why Steve hung on to the Winslows all the time, so he could get some kind of normal family life through them.

^^^ I second what you say about Steve's parents. It was pretty obvious that they had nothing but feelings of embarrassment where he was concerned. During his first episode as Stephan, he said that he finally got to meet his grandparents. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Forgive me but that is such.. .BULL Sheviek!

If THAT were even slightly true, then he'd have left her alone and moved on to some other girl (and some other family) the FIRST time Laura (and they) told him she/they was/were not interested in him. But even after Myra showed she was interested in him AND even after he went steady with Myra, he STILL pursued Laura and made it clear that he'd dump poor Myra the instant Laura ever changed her mind. He openly said he was going to 'wear [Laura] down'!

Would YOU like to have someone around (for years on end) who refused to learn to accept being told no to keep pestering you, harassing you, your friends and dates, trespassing on your family property and constantly destroying your family's property (and lamely avoid consequences by saying 'Did *I* do that?' but NEVER saying sorry much less offering compensation),etc. ?

And Laura was far more polite than he deserved and never openly mean. ALL she ever did was simply attempt to stand up for herself but even those attempts constantly got dissed by him and ignored(and guilt tripped via him using such phrases as 'all I want is her happiness') so he could impose HIS fantasy on her!

NO, I DO NOT think it was 'cute' at all. But annoying, disturbing and criminal on his part!
What you say about the physical destruction that Steve brought to the Winslow's property could be debatable. When Steve was accused of blowing up the school science lab, after Laura asked her dad during the school trial if Steve ever once denied the things that he was guilty of in the past, Carl then said that Steve took responsibility for every mishap. Not only that, but it was later on addressed, in the next season I believe it was, what an important difference Steve never hesitated to make in the lives of that family. When Steve and the Winslow family went before the family counselor/therapist guy, Harriette made sure that Steve's life saving activity was not forgotten about which brings to my one and only question about that scene. Why wasn't Steve's hospital activity acknowledged at that point? His saving Carl from being gunned down in their hospital room had already taken place, but the only things that were looked back on during that episode are his saving Carl from the collapsed fishing hole and being electrocuted by the broken living room lamp.

God bless you two always!!!

Holly

Yes, it was sad that Mr. and Mrs. Urkel were neglectful, oblivious parents to Steve but that was NOT the Winslows' problem or issue to solve . They weren't his shrinks, teachers or social workers .

Here's the thing: no one is required to like you, find you charming, want to mentor you, want to get romantically involved with you,etc. NO ONE! And just because a person doesn't like you, pity you or want to solve your issues, that in itself does not make them a bad person, a heel or someone who deserves to be harassed, stalked,sabotaged, pestered,etc. Yes, it would have been nice had any of the Winslows besides Grandma and Ritchie genuinely liked him but they weren't obligated to do so- not Laura, Carl, Harriette or Eddie. IOW, instead of spending years on end harassing and sabotaging the rest of the Winslows for not adoring him, Steve should have simply arranged to have Grandma Winslow and Ritchie visit him away from the rest of the family- and left everyone else ALONE. Period!

Again, I ask how many folks who find Urkel entertaining truly would want someone to nag, pester, harass and sabotage their own selves (or their sisters or daughters) and their families. . .for YEARS on end? I doubt very many of his fans would like that for themselves or their loved ones.

Yes, it was sad that Mr. and Mrs. Urkel were neglectful, oblivious parents to Steve but that was NOT the Winslows' problem or issue to solve . They weren't his shrinks, teachers or social workers .

Here's the thing: no one is required to like you, find you charming, want to mentor you, want to get romantically involved with you,etc. NO ONE! And just because a person doesn't like you, pity you or want to solve your issues, that in itself does not make them a bad person, a heel or someone who deserves to be harassed, stalked,sabotaged, pestered,etc. Yes, it would have been nice had any of the Winslows besides Grandma and Ritchie genuinely liked him but they weren't obligated to do so- not Laura, Carl, Harriette or Eddie. IOW, instead of spending years on end harassing and sabotaging the rest of the Winslows for not adoring him, Steve should have simply arranged to have Grandma Winslow and Ritchie visit him away from the rest of the family- and left everyone else ALONE. Period!

Again, I ask how many folks who find Urkel entertaining truly would want someone to nag, pester, harass and sabotage their own selves (or their sisters or daughters) and their families. . .for YEARS on end? I doubt very many of his fans would like that for themselves or their loved ones.
You seem to miss that Steve didn't have normal social skills and didn't know when he crossed a line, that he shouldn't have done.
Steve had awful parents and was bullied in school, so that is enough to make him a sympathetic character to me.
And he did lots of good things for the Winslows over the years, as a different poster explained.
Seriously, the guy even started a bone marrow drive for one of his bullies (who had given him a swirlie in the beginning of the episode, no less)!
But you want to only focus on his flaws, which is not fair at all.

somebody taking this show way to seriousley

You seem to miss that Steve didn't have normal social skills and didn't know when he crossed a line, that he shouldn't have done.
Steve had awful parents and was bullied in school, so that is enough to make him a sympathetic character to me.
And he did lots of good things for the Winslows over the years, as a different poster explained.
Seriously, the guy even started a bone marrow drive for one of his bullies (who had given him a swirlie in the beginning of the episode, no less)!
But you want to only focus on his flaws, which is not fair at all.

Yes, it was sad he had lousy parents but that wasn't the Winslows' problem that they were by any means obligated to make up for/solve. Even by the time the show started, Steve was old enough (and smart enough) to know what a shrink and/or counselor was and should have just gone to one of the above to try to deal with the issues of his parents instead of pestering the Winslows!


Fans and foes alike agree with Steve was a genius. Hence I reject the claim that he 'didn't know' he crossed a line. AFAIC, he did know but didn't CARE because he knew he could get away with overwhelming folks (Laura and all non-adoring Winslows) and likely enjoyed their discomfort- as bullies often do. Yes, I think he WAS a bully- just because he himself had been bullied doesn't mean he forever was above doing the same and/or shouldn't have been held accountable for having done the same to others . If he had recognized that he himself knew what it was like to have been bullied and therefore had empathy or compassion for others to avoid bullying them (regardless of what he might have desired for himself), then I'd have considered him a sympathetic character. Instead, despite the fact that he himself having been bullied, he egomaniacally refuses to consider that Laura or the Winslows also have the right to be left alone if they don't like his company, and became a bully to them for years on end.

OK, even though I grudgingly agree that he did some good deeds for the Winslows and others, that still did NOT obligate others (in particular the Winslows) to be required to adore him- much less accept him nagging, pestering, stalking, harassing and overwhelming them,etc. countless times for YEARS on end. And they didn't deserve him doing all the above just because they didn't adore him for the good deeds,etc.

Twice, I have asked if you( or any of Urkel's fans) would truly want for someone to nag, pester, harass and sabotage their own selves (and/or their sisters and daughters) and their families for years on end. So I'm giving you all one last time to respond to this query then I'll consider that this part of the post is getting deliberately ignored to avoid having to admit one would not like that offscreen.

P.S. Speaking for 'not fair at all', you seem to ignore how incredibly stressful it must have been for Laura and the Winslows (besides Grandma and Ritchie) to have been victims of bullying and harassment for years on end.

P.P.S The vlogger more or less nailed why the deal between Steve and Laura was 'not cute, at all'

^^^ After Steve saved Carl from the broken living room lamp, it was Eddie who eventually made Steve tell Carl that it was okay for him to be honest about his feelings. Eddie was like, "Steve, you are a nerdy annoying dweeb, but after what you did for my dad, the least that I can do in return is put up with you." Steve then said to Carl that if he ever got upset to not keep it to himself. Steve wanted Carl to be honest and straight forward by letting it out and of course, he did a moment later after yet another of Steve's mishaps and that right there is just it. If the family was really truly bothered by Steve, whatever legal activity that could've been taken against him would've happened, especially with Carl being a cop and all.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

P.S. If I was in a situation like the Winslow's, I would most definitely be appreciative to the good differences that Steve made in their lives. Why? One of my most favorite singers isn't here anymore due to his suicide on June 10, 1998. Why did this happen? I believe that it is because too many people washed their hands of him, Steve Sanders of the Oak Ridge Boys that is. They let the flaws that they believe he possessed outweigh the good difference that he made in their lives and I pray that he has haunted every last one of them ever since.

^^^ After Steve saved Carl from the broken living room lamp, it was Eddie who eventually made Steve tell Carl that it was okay for him to be honest about his feelings. Eddie was like, "Steve, you are a nerdy annoying dweeb, but after what you did for my dad, the least that I can do in return is put up with you." Steve then said to Carl that if he ever got upset to not keep it to himself. Steve wanted Carl to be honest and straight forward by letting it out and of course, he did a moment later after yet another of Steve's mishaps and that right there is just it. If the family was really truly bothered by Steve, whatever legal activity that could've been taken against him would've happened, especially with Carl being a cop and all.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

P.S. If I was in a situation like the Winslow's, I would most definitely be appreciative to the good differences that Steve made in their lives. Why? One of my most favorite singers isn't here anymore due to his suicide on June 10, 1998. Why did this happen? I believe that it is because too many people washed their hands of him, Steve Sanders of the Oak Ridge Boys that is. They let the flaws that they believe he possessed outweigh the good difference that he made in their lives and I pray that he has haunted every last one of them ever since.



OK, let me start by thanking you for somewhat answering my query re what would you (an Urkel) fan do if you had someone like him in your life (although I'm not sure you would each and every single time for each and every single obsessed harassing bully).

Yes, Mr. Sanders's suicide was quite tragic and one may consider that there may have been those in his life who were contributing factors to him making that horrific decision. But HE was the one who ultimately made the decision. We can hope and pray that somehow in his dying moments he repented and found peace (and maybe even that those folks in his life may have reconsidered since how to treat others from now on) but that doesn't erase what he himself did. And, of course, we should as humans be as kind as possible to others . Although, it's also important to keep in mind that there ARE those folks who will attempt to use one's very kindness to manipulate via guilt tripping,etc. Ultimately , one must remember that each of us has the right to decide whether or not any other person we might encounter is someone we adore, love, like, tolerate, endure, are indifferent to, dislike or even (short of violence) hate!

Yes, even if the other person may have done good deeds that does NOT obligate one to be required to like them. An example would be Harry Connick, Jr. In addition to being an outstanding musician and an actor with an impressive range, he has done so much to help the city of New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina and for these reasons I admire him as a person. However, if his short-lived talk show and other 'non acting' oncamera moments are any indication of his actual offstage personality, I consider him to be a rather annoying and grating individual.
IOW, this is someone who I am happy to admire from a distance (and even support his efforts) but would prefer not to have him in my life in any capacity if we were in the same circles. This does mean that I am a bad person or deserve to be pestered, nagged, harassed,etc. but that we each have the right to decide for ourselves whether individuals are folks we want to be with or folks we consider rubbing us the wrong way.

Are you saying that there are NO folks you've ever encountered who have rubbed you the wrong way whom you would prefer to have as few interactions with as possible?

Yes, it's all well and good to want to be 'most appreciative of the good differences' individuals can make in one's life.

However, keep in mind that more than one current battered women's shelter resident ALSO gave their abusers chance after chance after chance to do the right thing and were 'most appreciative of the good differences' that they wanted to believe that abusers made in their lives only to realize too late that by NOT having nipped the abusers' obsessions ASAP that they (and often their loved ones) had become literal prisoners of the abusers' obsessions (and let's not overlook that Steve openly said that he was 'wearing Laura down'). The late Maya Angelou had some of the wisest words 'When someone shows you who they are, BELIEVE THEM!!' and, despite a few niceties down the years, Steve definitely DID show Laura and the Winslows who he was! Remember, a few niceties here and there are NOT the sum total of a person who is basically a stalking, harassing abuser!

Just because Carl the Cop didn't have the book thrown at Steve for his stalking, harassing, vandalism,etc. doesn't mean that Steve didn't commit any crimes or wasn't 'truly bothered' by him just the same way a battered woman not pressing charges against her abuser doesn't mean that that she hadn't been hit,abused,etc. by said abuser or wasn't 'truly bothered' by the crimes committed against her.

IOW, there's a reason WHY one should insist that 'no means NO' instead of giving someone who couldn't care less about one's autonomy, independent thought or person chance after chance.

Yes, it was sad he had lousy parents but that wasn't the Winslows' problem that they were by any means obligated to make up for/solve. Even by the time the show started, Steve was old enough (and smart enough) to know what a shrink and/or counselor was and should have just gone to one of the above to try to deal with the issues of his parents instead of pestering the Winslows!
It is not very likely that a neglected kid will seek help on their own, I'm afraid.
So yes, it is very much possible that it's up to a neighbor to do something about it.

Fans and foes alike agree with Steve was a genius. Hence I reject the claim that he 'didn't know' he crossed a line.
Being a genius about science and technology doesn't mean that you will have normal social skills.

And as for the rest of your post, let me just say that I really disagree with your interpretation of Steve's character.
(That is, until he was dumb enough to dump Myra for Laura. That is when he lost my sympathy.)

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It is not very likely that a neglected kid will seek help on their own, I'm afraid.
So yes, it is very much possible that it's up to a neighbor to do something about it.


No, it it NOT up to a neighbor or neighbors by any means. Yes, if he'd been abused and they knew it and they could have called the authorities but just the parents being blah didn't obligate the neighbors to do so. Oh and let's not forget that Steve had at least one uncle (who took a shot of him and Laura) and an aunt (played by the late Donna Summer who deserved a far better role) who he could have turned to had he wanted to seek help with his parents (who likely would have listened to their own sibs far more than their neighbors) but he evidently didn't think the blah deal with them was worth mentioning to the uncle and aunt.

Oh, and by the time the show ended he'd long since graduated high school who that means he was an adult not a kid any more .



Being a genius about science and technology doesn't mean that you will have normal social skills.



Possibly not but Steve DID know how to be polite when he thought it suited his purposes so I reject that he was too impaired to have social skills had he wanted to use them.



And as for the rest of your post, let me just say that I really disagree with your interpretation of Steve's character.



That's fine by me as I really disagree with yours as well as JO Sweet Heart's interpretations. To each one's own!



(That is, until he was dumb enough to dump Myra for Laura. That is when he lost my sympathy.)

He'd lost mine by the 2nd time he refused to accept or respect Laura's and Carl's stated disinterest in him but I agree that that a deliberately bad move on his part (although IMO the zillionth rather than the first one).

As I said, to each one's own so I think we each have shared plenty of data to support each of our viewpoints so others can interpret our arguments any way they want.

No, it it NOT up to a neighbor or neighbors by any means. Yes, if he'd been abused and they knew it and they could have called the authorities but just the parents being blah didn't obligate the neighbors to do so.
They planned to leave him unsupervised for days, when he was only fifteen years old.
That is neglect and actually made Harriet let him stay with the Winslows until they returned.
They were also angry that Lt Murtaugh brought him back to them from jail.
(Eddy's cousin had stolen a car, and Eddy and Clarence forced him to join them for a ride.)
That too is a reason to feel concern.

Oh and let's not forget that Steve had at least one uncle (who took a shot of him and Laura) and an aunt (played by the late Donna Summer who deserved a far better role) who he could have turned to had he wanted to seek help with his parents (who likely would have listened to their own sibs far more than their neighbors) but he evidently didn't think the blah deal with them was worth mentioning to the uncle and aunt.
True, he could have stayed with an uncle or an aunt.
But that would have made it necessary for the character to leave the show.

Oh, and by the time the show ended he'd long since graduated high school who that means he was an adult not a kid any more .
And by that point, he was living with the Winslows and was accepted by them.
So I guess that he wasn't that terrible after all.

Possibly not but Steve DID know how to be polite when he thought it suited his purposes so I reject that he was too impaired to have social skills had he wanted to use them.
Nonsense!
Steve might have had his flaws, but he wasn't devious or manipulative.

Nonsense!
Steve might have had his flaws, but he wasn't devious or manipulative.

Beg to differ! Despite knowing that none of them (besides Grandma and Ritchie) more than just barely tolerated his presence and sincerely had no use for him, Steve stalked, harassed them (especially Laura and Carl) for YEARS! He wasn't stupid! He KNEW what he was doing. Hence he WAS devious and manipulative. I think even his occasion nicesities were just means to manipulate the others.

As I said earlier, to each one's own! IOW, if you want to keep being entertained by the show by pretending he's a wonderful person and a victim, that's YOUR call. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that ANYONE in the real world who behaves remotely like this can be trusted or believed!

IOW, that vlogger NAILED why Steve and Laura's relationship was not cute. At All!