Foul play or suicide?

Suicide, IMO. For many reasons.

I lean toward suicide as well.
It's interesting that when they're reenacting how she walked down a ledge "IN HIGH HEELS IN THE ICE" at the end they show the actual ledge that she walked down. Ummmm.... So in certain places that incline doesn't look as steep as the one that they showed. Misleading.
Also, why the hell would someone go through such elaborate means to send a "message" to a family member just to avoid all police suspicion? One assumes that they would make it at least SEEM questionable if they weren't going to taunt them afterward. There is almost nothing here that even seems questionable aside from the damage on the strap, which was probably caused by the purse getting caught on something or slipping on the ice.

I don't know...suicide by wading into ice cold water doesn't seem plausible to me. Not saying it was murder tho.

People kill themselves by drowning all the time. It might seem absurd to us because it's an excruciatingly painful way to die. But it happens commonly.

Foul play was not credibly presented in any way, shape, or form. Her butt print and hand prints were found in the snow, indicating that someone either sat down, or fell down and had to push themselves up in the snow. Why wasn't an accidental death explored as a possibility?

I’m inclined to believe it was murder. Her brother came off sketchy as all get out.

My thought was homicide, but unintentional. People want to get at her brother and figure they can snatch his sister and scare him, either to pay them back or for whatever is up.

Perhaps she tried to get away, but they got her. That rip in her purse could be from someone grabbing the fringe part. Maybe at that moment she fell and hit her head, or while they had her she was accidentally killed. In a panic, they drove to Detroit and dumped her in the river. No way her body makes it to Boblo from GP in that body of water. No way.

While I suspect her brother knows who did it, I feel his sadness and anger is genuine.

I just don't see a grand conspiracy to murder Joann, but I can see how an accidental death by someone is plausible. I also don't see her trying to attempt suicide in that body of water by the church. One, she's a devout Catholic and it looks like her life was coming together and she had her faith. Two, I don't see her trying to kill herself in that area with those shoes. No way.

GPPD dropped the ball with this investigation. I think she saw what they wanted to see and got tunnel vision.

If it was suicide, it would have had to been assisted. She was found with her keys in her pocket yet the car was somehow moved. Based on the fact that there was so many search parties out there looking for her in relatively shallow water with no current, the location near the church on Lake St. Clair couldn't possibly have been where she entered the icy cold water.

I don't blame her family for filing a lawsuit based on the incompetent handling of the original investigation, but I can't blame the courts for dismissing it either. The reason for that is because the theories leaning towards suicide and foul play are both purely circumstantial. Nonetheless, the original investigators struck me as rather incompetent because they obviously didn't care about looking at the case from an objective point of view (contrary to what all investigators in any case anywhere are supposed to do).

IMO, I think she met with foul play based on where she was found in relation to where her car was left although I am not inclined to believe it involved anybody close to her because there hasn't been any evidence supporting that idea. It could be she was a victim of a random act, mistaken identity, or even unintentional/accidental death. Her body had to have been placed where it was found because it's highly unlikely given the current/wind conditions for her to have been out on the water that long and drift all the way down the river without being discovered.

I think homicide but not because they were trying to “get” to her brother. I think her cousin the cop had something to do with it. And the local police investigating it are covering up for him.

But shoddy police work regardless!

That body of water she “suicided” herself in doesn’t seem like an area with a current strong enough to get her 35 miles south. I could be wrong. In any event I think her cousin had something to do with it. He seemed like one of those Italian mobsters. Definitely someone shady enough to arrange it. Why? Maybe she pissed him off.

What to make of the alleged secretive phone calls she kept getting and her increased paranoia? Suicidal people are not usually paranoid but rather depressed, and eventually could enter a period of feeling “numb.” Paranoia leading to suicide usually happens when the person has a significant mental illness.

I think homicide but not because they were trying to “get” to her brother. I think her cousin the cop had something to do with it. And the local police investigating it are covering up for him.

But shoddy police work regardless!

That body of water she “suicided” herself in doesn’t seem like an area with a current strong enough to get her 35 miles south. I could be wrong. In any event I think her cousin had something to do with it. He seemed like one of those Italian mobsters. Definitely someone shady enough to arrange it. Why? Maybe she pissed him off.

What to make of the alleged secretive phone calls she kept getting and her increased paranoia? Suicidal people are not usually paranoid but rather depressed, and eventually could enter a period of feeling “numb.” Paranoia leading to suicide usually happens when the person has a significant mental illness.

If it wasn't someone after her brother, I do think the cousin is the next obvious suspect. Same thing...maybe just meant to scare her and she died accidentally somehow, i.e. hit her head and they ditched her body to hide what they did.

If the GPPD did their job, we may have an idea of what happened but we may never know thanks to those idiots.

Foul play. 100%

I'm supposed to believe a devout Catholic woman walked into freezing cold water right after leaving church to commit suicide by drowning.

Seriously?

This was clearly foul play and if the damned police did their jobs properly, they may have discovered evidence that showed she was likely abducted and murdered elsewhere which is why her body was found over 30 miles downstream.

How could a woman with her body size drift downstream wearing all black in a SHALLOW lake with little to no current without being seen for 70 days?

Come on folks. This is clearly a problematic situation and there was no way she could have died from drowning without being found within a day or two of her disappearance.

The police dropped the ball with this one from the first moment. The car should have been searched for DNA and the phone records examined immediately. I would assume the examination of phone records of a deceased individual would be standard practice these days.

I hope her family gets to the truth one of these days.

People kill themselves by drowning all the time. It might seem absurd to us because it's an excruciatingly painful way to die. But it happens commonly.

ALL the time?

Statistically tho, how many people commit suicide in an agonizing manner? I don't have any numbers but I imagine the vast majority do it quickly -- gun, hanging, etc... Just seems odd that someone would choose walking into ice cold water.

ALL the time?

Statistically tho, how many people commit suicide in an agonizing manner? I don't have any numbers but I imagine the vast majority do it quickly -- gun, hanging, etc... Just seems odd that someone would choose walking into ice cold water.

From 1999-2007 (the only available years that I could find online for free), suicide by drowning was 12th on the list of the 20 leading causes of violence related injury deaths, according to the CDC. There were 12,532. So a lot more common than you think.

https://i.ibb.co/q0nT5m8/cdc.png

What if JoAnn suffered a medical emergency?

I am wondering if she became confused and acted erratically. It might explain leaving to fill up her tank and parking in a different parking space. It could explain her attempting to walk across a frozen river.

Yes, it's illogical and doesn't make sense, but it can happen.

From 1999-2007 (the only available years that I could find online for free), suicide by drowning was 12th on the list of the 20 leading causes of violence related injury deaths, according to the CDC. There were 12,532. So a lot more common than you think.

https://i.ibb.co/q0nT5m8/cdc.png

Thanks, TheCars. We have a lot of good interactions on this board. You're my favorite dude here. Haha.

What if JoAnn suffered a medical emergency?

I am wondering if she became confused and acted erratically. It might explain leaving to fill up her tank and parking in a different parking space. It could explain her attempting to walk across a frozen river.

Yes, it's illogical and doesn't make sense, but it can happen.

I would believe that over the non-sensical foul play scenario presented. She was claiming that her phones were tapped and people were following her. Her husband of 25 years left her for her best friend (nice little tidbit that UM omitted). Her cousin, the police officer, had an airtight alibi on the night of JoAnn's death which was verified via phone records. Her car keys were found zipped up in her coat pocket when her body was found. Her family was present when the police opened her car that night and searched the contents of it, meaning that the family brought along the spare key to gain access to her car...meaning that her car could not have been nefariously moved by someone else. Everything presented in this case comes from the daughters of JoAnn. A mental illness and/or medical emergency is more logical than the foul play scenario, IMO.

Her husband of 25 years left her for her best friend (nice little tidbit that UM omitted).

Indeed. wtf
I guess these guys really are the same producers from the original show. Haha.
I remember watching the episode of the "acorn UFO" that supposedly crashed into the woods, then researching the case as an adult and seeing all of the stuff that they omitted. Jesus... Ditto with the "naked lady spirit by the side of the road," who supposedly guided people to her infant son in the crashed car, yet even at the time it was conclusively proven that the little kid wandered away from the wreckage and onto the shoulder of the road.

Thanks, TheCars. We have a lot of good interactions on this board. You're my favorite dude here. Haha.

Thanks!

I should also mention that the car was not registered in JoAnn's name, but was registered to her daughter Michelle. Michelle claims that the spare key went "missing" but resurfaced in police custody 6 weeks after her mother went missing. Knowing that the other key was found inside JoAnn's zipped coat pocket, and knowing that Michelle and other family members were present when police gained access to the vehicle, I ask of you one simple question:

Which is more believable, that the police nefariously stole the spare key from Michelle at some point that night and in the hysteria/confusion of JoAnn being missing no one in her family noticed it, OR did Michelle go with the police to the vehicle with the spare key to open the vehicle and search for any trace of her mother? Because in various lawsuits, Michelle insinuates the former.

ETA:

You can read what the family was alleging through their lawsuits here (https://www.opn.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/19a0197p-06.pdf). UM probably didn't mention much of this for two reasons: legal ones, and that they actually were trying to maintain some integrity when presenting this case. The "John Doe" that they paint as the killer, is the cousin, Tim Matouk.

According to Joann Matouk Romain’s estate, two local police departments and many officers covered up Joann’s murder. The alleged plot required duping other officers, the U.S. Coast Guard, and Canadian authorities. The motive? To help a friend who sold the officers alcohol at prices cheaper than Costco.

Starting with the communications with the killer, the estate says the evidence shows that the police knew about Joann’s disappearance before finding her abandoned car. In support, the estate relies largely on an affidavit from Joann’s daughter. The affidavit states that an unidentified officer arrived at Joann’s house about thirty minutes before the police reported following the footprints to the water. That officer, the affidavit says, was not the officer that the police later claimed they sent. What is more, the officer asked about Joann. But Joann’s car was registered in her daughters’ names, so the officer should not have known that Joann was missing based only on a license plate check. The estate asserts that a jury could infer from those facts that the officer knew about Joann’s disappearance before it happened. That would make sense, the estate says, only if the officer knew about the murder plot.

As further proof, the estate says the police had Joann’s spare keys that went missing a month before her disappearance. An officer claims he picked up the keys from Joann’s house the morning after she disappeared. The estate seems to insinuate that the officer is lying and that the police were in contact with the person who took the keys or that they took the keys themselves.

The estate also suggests that the police ignored a struggle. Joann’s purse had a rip along the seam of a decorative flap. Her daughter says Joann carried her purse on her left shoulder, and that it was “in pristine condition” the day of her disappearance. And an autopsy report said that Joann had a contusion on her upper left arm. The estate says that these facts are proof of a struggle that ended in murder. The police disagreed.

Relevant to this appeal, the estate brought a Monell claim and a § 1983 claim alleging that there was a state-created danger because the officers made “it known to Killer John Doe that they would immediately cover up the murder and rule it a suicide.” The district court granted summary judgment to the defendants. The estate now appeals that order.

They are alleging that two separate police departments were complicit in JoAnn's death because her cousin, the killer, was a police officer for another police department. That's bonkers.

Found another one (https://cases.justia.com/federal/district-courts/michigan/miedce/4:2014cv12289/292087/322/0.pdf?ts=1520515629). Here's some highlights:

With regards to the claim that it was "suspicious" for the police to have become alarmed by just seeing a parked car in a church parking lot:

Lieutenant Rogers ran the vehicle’s license plate from his patrol car through
the Law Enforcement Information Network (“LIEN”) system and learned that the car was registered to Kathy Matouk and Michelle Romain, Ms. Romain’s daughters. Rogers also learned that the license plate had expired several days earlier. Because the vehicle was on private property, Lieutenant Rogers did not believe there was a reason to investigate further or issue a ticket.

About an hour later the same evening, GPF Public Safety Officer (“PSO”) Keith Colombo, also on routine patrol, came upon the Lexus. Colombo was concerned because the Lexus was the only vehicle in the driveway, he saw no one around, and it was late on a cold January weeknight. He approached the Lexus and illuminated the interior with a flashlight to confirm that there was no one inside the vehicle, which there was not. PSO Colombo then returned to his patrol car and ran SUV’s license plate through LEIN and discovered it was registered to Kathy Matouk and Michelle Romain, with an address of 693 Morningside Lane, Grosse Pointe Woods.

PSO Colombo then got out of his patrol car to check the area. Not seeing anyone, PSO Colombo thought the driver and/or occupants of the Lexus might be down by the water’s edge because, in his experience, people “very frequently” park in the church parking lot and streets adjacent to Lake Shore Drive and go down to the lake. Aided by the headlights and spotlight from his patrol car facing south on the driveway toward
Lake Shore Drive, the ambient light from the snow-covered ground, and his flashlight, PSO Colombo noticed footprints in the snow on the south-side of Lake Shore Drive, leading to an embankment.

PSO Colombo then walked across Lake Shore Drive to the curb closest to the lake, where he saw footsteps in the snow leading down toward a second embankment at the water’s edge. An impression in the snow on the first breakwall suggested that someone had sat down on the breakwall and pushed off to get down to the second breakwall. Additional prints suggested that someone also had sat down on the second
breakwall. Colombo looked for footprints in the snow leading back from the water and saw nothing but fresh snow.

Two cops ran a check on the car that night. The plates were expired. The second officer was more likely than not (since it was not specified) notified that another officer ran a check on the vehicle about an hour prior, which heightened his suspicions about the vehicle.

JoAnn's family has claimed that various times were reported much earlier than the official police version of events. For example, they say that records kept by the Coast Guard indicate that they had called for help nearly an hour prior to the official version. However:

Several pages of the Coast Guard’s Search and Rescue (“SAR”) file reflect that it was contacted about a person in the water off Lake Shore by GPF Lieutenant Rogers via land line at 10:33 p.m. The Coast Guard's Situation Report (“SITREP”), however, apparently reflects that assistance was requested at 9:30 p.m., an airboat was launched at 9:38 p.m., and the airboat was on scene at 9:51 p.m. In an affidavit submitted in support of the GPF Defendants’ motion for summary judgment, Bruce W. Czako, the Coast Guard Officer who received Lieutenant Rogers’ call, states that these earlier entries are incorrect based on his personal recollection of the events in question and the other entries in the Search and Rescue file. Czako indicates that the incorrect times are times entered manually by a station member. United States Coast Guard Operations Specialist First Class Petty Officer Stephen E. Veda confirms Czako’s statements in a separate affidavit submitted in support of the GPF Defendants’ motion for summary judgment.

The officer who was dispatched to go to Michelle's home says that he arrived and was sent to inquire about the car. Michelle told him that she hadn't heard from her mother and he advised her to start calling around to see if anyone had seen her. About twenty minutes after arriving, he called the dispatch to inform them that Michelle and other family members were on their way to the scene of where the vehicle was found. Michelle, however:

Michelle Romain asserts that the GPW officer who came to her house the evening of January 12, 2010, was not PSO Fisher. According to Michelle, the officer was approximately 6 ft. 1 in. in height, which is much taller than PSO Fisher, and had very dark hair and a slender build. Michelle describes PSO Fisher as having light brown hair and a stocky build. According to the Grosse Pointe Woods Defendants, Plaintiff was provided in discovery a roster of all GPW Department of Public Safety employees and their photographs, but Michelle has not identified any of those individuals as the person who came to 693 Morningside the evening of January 12, 2010.

Michelle also insists that the officer who came to the house arrived at 9:25 p.m. and specifically inquired about the whereabouts of her mother, stating that her mother’s car was found parked in the St. Paul’s Church parking lot.

Michelle provides that she left the house with her sister Kellie and Uncle John Matouk at 9:45 p.m., and arrived at St. Paul’s Church between 9:55 and 10:00 p.m. Michelle further provides that when they arrived, she saw a helicopter with lights shining into the lake across Lake Shore Drive. There was caution tape around the Lexus and an officer utilizing a tool to open the car door. Michelle attests that she saw the officer gain entrance to the vehicle and remove her mother’s black purse and search its contents. The contents of the purse did not include a cellphone or keys.

Am I the only one who is starting to see that the daughter has some credibility issues? It gets worse. With regards to the "tear" on the purse, which would indicate a struggle:

According to Defendant Daniel Jensen, GPF Chief of Police and Director of Public Safety, the tear was on the flap area of the purse. The tear is pointed out in the photographs of the purse taken after it was found. These photographs reflect a portion of the top ruffle of the purse, which has approximately nine layers of horizontal ruffles, detached at the seam.

One would think that the tear would be somewhere close to the strap, and not top ruffles detached at the seam. Her family also says that the police stole the spare key at some point, but that her mother also reported the spare being stolen about 6 weeks before she disappeared.

According to PSO Good, McCarthy said something along the lines of looking through the vehicle to see if there was anything suspicious or unusual about the contents. Good received the key for the Lexus from Defendant Frank Zielinski, another GPF PSO. PSO Zielinski testified that during the morning of January 13, 2010, someone at the department instructed him to go and retrieve a set of keys for the Lexus. Good testified that the instructions did not come from him. At his deposition on October 9, 2015, Zielinksi could not recall who gave him the instructions or the address where he was sent. He also could not describe the person who gave him the key when he arrived at the address. Until shown PSO Good’s report, Zielinski did not remember who he gave the key to when he returned to the police station.

This sounds like some forgetfulness over the course of 5 years, as opposed to something even remotely nefarious. Zielinski's only activity on the case was to go and retrieve the key, so I don't find it weird or suspicious that he doesn't remember details. He didn't even remember who he gave the key to until he was given Good's report. So there is a chain of command for the key.

Much has been made (online, but not mentioned on UM) about a woman who saw a man jogging near the scene at around 7:50 p.m. that night wearing a scarf. A scarf was recovered from the scene. However, she says that nothing was suspicious at that time and the only reason she came forward was when she saw JoAnn's disappearance featured on the news. A paralegal working with the firm who was representing JoAnn in her divorce proceedings also saw the news report about JoAnn's disappearance and contacted police:

According to Detective McCarthy’s report, Ms. Barich indicated that Ms. Romain had been at the law firm’s offices early the preceding week and appeared “distraught” and “paranoid.” According to Ms. Barich, Ms. Romain complained that David Romain was “controlling.” Ms. Barich found Ms. Romain’s behavior not normal and unusual.

Another worker at the law firm:

Ms. Wyatt told McCarthy that she saw Ms. Romain at the firm’s offices within the last few weeks and Ms. Romain “feared trouble from her husband.” According to Ms. Wyatt, Ms. Romain also believed someone was tampering with her mail, but Ms. Romain did not have anything specific. Ms. Wyatt told Detective McCarthy that she did not think Ms. Romain was depressed and/or despondent.

Also, Michelle:

According to Detective McCarthy’s report, Michelle told the officers that her mother was increasingly paranoid in the last few months. Ms. Romain thought her cell phone was being tapped and that people were entering her home and so she had the locks changed. McCarthy wrote that Michelle did not believe any of her mother’s concerns were substantiated or could be confirmed by anyone.

A man called the local police department with a tip and reported:

On January 17, 2010, PSO Trupiano took a statement from David Grant, who reported that at around 6:45 or 7:00 p.m. on January 12, he saw a heavy set woman wearing a dark color trench coat standing on the north side of Lake Shore Drive at St. Paul’s Church. Grant stated that she was staring out into the water.

JoAnn's family (again, this was not mentioned on UM) have pointed out that another witness, a man named Paul Hawk, claimed to have seen two vehicles parked by the lakeside near the church on January 12th, and saw a woman "sitting on the breakwall". However:

When Detective McCarthy asked Hawk when on January 12 this occurred, Hawk said he was not sure of the exact time, but that it was mid to late afternoon and light outside. Detective McCarthy did not believe the woman Hawk saw was Ms. Romain based on the timing, but gave him a witness statement to fill out and return. Detective McCarthy testified that he did not include Hawk’s statement in the case report because he did not think the information was relevant to Ms. Romain.

Hawk's written statement, however, says that he saw all of this occur "near dusk" and that in addition to the woman, he saw 2 men near the 2 parked vehicles. Two years after giving his statement, he filed a property damage complaint against the police department because he noticed a splotch of tar on the side mirror of his car, which he said resembled a hawk and that "he was a witness in the Grosse Point Farm's Romain-Matouk murder and he thought someone put the tar on his car to send him a message to remain quiet." Detectives re-interviewed Hawk, and he now claimed:

Mr. Hawk told Detective Chalut that when he passed the two men and woman on Lake Shore Drive the night of January 12, 2010, one of the men placed his hand in his pocket, as though reaching for a gun. Chalut noted that Mr. Hawk did not mention the man reaching for a possible weapon in his GPF written statement. During their conversation, Mr. Hawk stated that he went to the Michigan State Police and FBI regarding what he saw the night of January 12, 2010, because no one at the GPF Department of Public Safety ever called him back. Detective Chalut wrote in his report that he explained that the investigating agency is responsible for recontacting witnesses if they deem it necessary and that this seemed to upset Mr. Hawk. Detective Chalut further explained that, in his opinion, Lieutenant Rosati did not find Mr. Hawk to be a credible witness due to inconsistencies in his statements compared to known facts in the case.

Hawk changed the time he witnessed these events from afternoon, to dusk, to the night, and then added details each time he was re-interviewed. It's also interesting that Hawk identified Tim Matouk as one of the men he saw that night. It should be noted that this identification was made roughly 4 years after the fact, during the entire lawsuit fiasco.

A church goer called a detective with the police department and said:

On January 13, 2010, GPW Detective John Kosanke received a telephone call from Elizabeth Fisher who reported that she saw Ms. Romain enter St. Paul’s Church the night before at around 7:05 p.m. Ms. Fisher indicated that Ms. Romain sat in back and that her body language while walking indicated she was depressed. Specifically, Ms. Fisher described that Ms. Romain walked slowly and in a slumped position. According to Ms. Fisher, the service lasted until 7:20 p.m. and she saw Ms. Romain leave the church.

A woman called the police and said she observed someone standing on the road facing the lake at 8:30 p.m. on the evening prior to JoAnn's disappearance. She said this person was wearing all black and that she thought it was a male.

The Canadian coroner's report noted "paranoid psychosis (presumed)." Despite this, he wrote that there was insufficient evidence to suggest suicide, concluded that the cause of death was drowning, and that the manner of death was undetermined. The local coroner in Macomb County concluded the same. They even conducted a third autopsy with an independent pathologist from the University of Michigan. He too, reached the same conclusions.

Michelle also accused her uncle Bill of being involved with her mother's death. But:

As Defendants point out, Plaintiff fails to present any evidence to support her assertion that Bill Matouk was involved in “plenty of illegal activity” and she mischaracterizes his relationship with the officers named in this action to suggest that they were close enough that the officers would be willing to conceal his involvement in a murder. During the deposition of Bill Matouk that Plaintiff offers to demonstrate this close relationship, Plaintiff’s counsel repeatedly tried to get Mr. Matouk to say that he was “buddies” with the named officers. What the deposition testimony reflects is that some of the defendants are or have been customers at Bill Matouk’s store and he was friendly with them, but never socialized with them.

This really seems like nothing more than a woman facing a familial dispute over money, coupled with the fact that her husband of 25 years left her to be with her best friend, who chose to take her own life (or accidentally fell in) shortly after the evening church services. In the ensuing months and years after her death, the familial feud still going strong, her daughter then starts to accuse family member after family member (her father, her 2 uncles, and her cousin) as being responsible, but then also accuses multiple police departments and law enforcement agencies. I am sorry, but she is just not credible at all (as outlined above). This woman's tragic death is being exploited and misrepresented.

Agreed, TheCars. I'm almost 100% certain that it was suicide now. And I love Unsolved, but damn them for not presenting the full scope of the facts.

I also want to state that the police chief who was involved with this case seemed very impressive to me-- sharp and honest about things that puzzled him about the case. Most of the police chiefs who I've encountered in my life are utter morons and/or thoroughly corrupt.

I have to admit, I’m a little disappointed in the case selection for this second installment. Fairly interesting stories, but almost nothing actually, you know, mysterious. This was the worst of the lot. Again, not a single hint of anything that would make me even consider foul play. I don’t know if it was suicide or accidental, but she went into that water, drowned, and ended up 30 miles away over two months later. It happens.

I know this sounds harsh, but I think she was a little nuts, and that her family is comprised of exhausting drama queens (doesn’t mean I don’t feel for them in their loss), which was borne out by the lawsuit reveal at the end. Who knows if she intended to kill herself, or was running from another of these imaginary people chasing her, or simply walked down to the water and accidentally slipped and hit the rocks.

To be frank, I found the episode a little insulting. “Maybe somebody kidnapped her, drove 30+ miles to dump her body with her keys in her pocket, drove the car BACK 30+ miles to where it was originally, and didn’t steal either anything from her purse, or, you know, the Lexus itself.”
Right, that’s totally what happened.

Come on, UM. There are so many riveting mysteries that need attention out there, and you choose to waste time on this open-and-shut BS. It’s a sad story, but nothing more.

Maybe I need to watch it again (something I find I say often with these Netflix episodes) but it seemed plausible that maybe she decided to take a moment to look out at the water for some quiet reflection and accidentally slipped and fell.

Come on, UM. There are so many riveting mysteries that need attention out there, and you choose to waste time on this open-and-shut BS. It’s a sad story, but nothing more.

They can't do mysteries that are solvable because they might get closed in the 2 years it takes them to make a season. :rolleyes:

Foul play. 100%

I'm supposed to believe a devout Catholic woman walked into freezing cold water right after leaving church to commit suicide by drowning.

Seriously?

This was clearly foul play and if the damned police did their jobs properly, they may have discovered evidence that showed she was likely abducted and murdered elsewhere which is why her body was found over 30 miles downstream.

How could a woman with her body size drift downstream wearing all black in a SHALLOW lake with little to no current without being seen for 70 days?

Come on folks. This is clearly a problematic situation and there was no way she could have died from drowning without being found within a day or two of her disappearance.

The police dropped the ball with this one from the first moment. The car should have been searched for DNA and the phone records examined immediately. I would assume the examination of phone records of a deceased individual would be standard practice these days.

I hope her family gets to the truth one of these days.


I seriously hope the argument for it being a murder isn't that she was fat and should have acted like some sort of anchor.

I seriously hope the argument for it being a murder isn't that she was fat and should have acted like some sort of anchor.

You can point out the staggering amount of information that Unsolved Mysteries has left out over the years, and people will still blindly accept everything that they present as 100% fact.

As far as "how could her body travel that far" argument. SPOILER: it could (https://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/1984/19840012.pdf).

The area of Lake St. Clair at the head of the Detroit River is usually ice free because an ice bridge forms above the river head; however, this lake area fills with drift ice following storm breakup of the ice bridge. As the ice begins to melt, the breakup of the lake ice cover occurs quickly. Winds and currents move the drifting ice to the entrance of the Detroit River, where relatively strong river currents move it downstream. The lake is usually free of ice in March.

Since it was roughly 3 months after she disappeared when her body was found, it did not travel that far (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/St+Paul+on+the+Lake+Catholic+Church,+Lake+Shore+Road,+Grosse+Pointe+Farms,+MI/Bois+Blanc+Island,+Amherstburg,+ON,+Canada/@42.2591657,-83.1449053,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x88252a140064ac09:0x4abe7633c6330081!2m2!1d-82.8916667!2d42.3943997!1m5!1m1!1s0x883b3cf568ddc3a1:0xdaa8556ca6f91def!2m2!1d-83.1206665!2d42.093089!3e0).

You can point out the staggering amount of information that Unsolved Mysteries has left out over the years, and people will still blindly accept everything that they present as 100% fact.

As far as "how could her body travel that far" argument. SPOILER: it could (https://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fulltext/1984/19840012.pdf).



Since it was roughly 3 months after she disappeared when her body was found, it did not travel that far (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/St+Paul+on+the+Lake+Catholic+Church,+Lake+Shore+Road,+Grosse+Pointe+Farms,+MI/Bois+Blanc+Island,+Amherstburg,+ON,+Canada/@42.2591657,-83.1449053,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x88252a140064ac09:0x4abe7633c6330081!2m2!1d-82.8916667!2d42.3943997!1m5!1m1!1s0x883b3cf568ddc3a1:0xdaa8556ca6f91def!2m2!1d-83.1206665!2d42.093089!3e0).

Yuuup

This is yet another case of murder where the poor victim is being blamed by online sleuths and crappy cops for her own demise. Very sad.

I hope this episode will help bring her murderer to justice.

How can you possibly come to that conclusion with the information they presented in the show?

How about this theory: she saw a dog on the lake and tried to help it and in doing so, drowned?

I seriously hope the argument for it being a murder isn't that she was fat and should have acted like some sort of anchor.

There's a strange phenomenon on this board about everything being suicide instead of foul play.

I never made the claim that "she was too fat" - the idea of a heavier person wearing all black floating downstream over the course of 70 days in a shallow lake with little to no current is just ridiculous.

Also without being seen by drones or news choppers or any other kind of surveillance is very weird.

In any case, what's with the constant insistence that every single death is suicide?

Mysterious hanging? Suicide.
Body found in suspicious circumstances? Suicide.
Black guy found dead after a racially-charged incident? Suicide.
Space shuttle exploding after launch? Suicide.
Asteroid smashing into the Earth wiping out the dinosaurs? Suicide.

That's how ridiculous some of these theories sound.

There's a strange phenomenon on this board about everything being suicide instead of foul play.

I never made the claim that "she was too fat" - the idea of a heavier person wearing all black floating downstream over the course of 70 days in a shallow lake with little to no current is just ridiculous.

Also without being seen by drones or news choppers or any other kind of surveillance is very weird.

In any case, what's with the constant insistence that every single death is suicide?

Mysterious hanging? Suicide.
Body found in suspicious circumstances? Suicide.
Black guy found dead after a racially-charged incident? Suicide.
Space shuttle exploding after launch? Suicide.
Asteroid smashing into the Earth wiping out the dinosaurs? Suicide.

That's how ridiculous some of these theories sound.

Thank you! God forbid someone shoots me and plants the gun, these people on this forum and others that shall remain nameless would rule it a suicide.

What if JoAnn suffered a medical emergency?

I am wondering if she became confused and acted erratically. It might explain leaving to fill up her tank and parking in a different parking space. It could explain her attempting to walk across a frozen river.

Yes, it's illogical and doesn't make sense, but it can happen.

Honestly I think this could be a really good explanation.

Both the suicide theory and the foul play theory have a lot of holes, but the medical emergency idea seems plausible.

Because none of the so called proof is based in fact. "She wouldn't act that way" isn't proof of a murder. It's entirely subjective and you can poke a million holes through it.

If I died I sure hope I don't end up on UM with someone babbling mad tale about a mysterious companion because I used a second glass or plate at dinner because I was too lazy to go get the one I was already using from the other room.

There is obviously current, and proof of this has already been supplied here. Just because some guy says it on UM doesn't mean it's true, there definitely isn't a massive stagnant lake running through Detroit.

The thing that seems to get lost in this "murder or suicide" debate is accidents ...

The thing that seems to get lost in this "murder or suicide" debate is accidents ...

Exactly! So again I suggest, maybe she saw a dog and tried to help it and drown?

I live in the Grosse Pointes currently and (up until the pandemic) would take Lakeshore Drive into work everyday, so I pass by this spot pretty frequently.

My assumption about her death has always been death by misadventure. It's incredibly common for people to stop and get out of their cars and take photos of, or get a closer look at, the lake even in the winter. There are commonly mini icebergs floating in the water, or waves breaking up over the ice, or if the lighting is right the ice on the lake will take on a spectacular blue color. So I speculate that she just walked over to the shore to get a better look and either slipped and fell down onto the lake or purposely went out onto the lake to see something or photograph something and broke through.

I live in the Grosse Pointes currently and (up until the pandemic) would take Lakeshore Drive into work everyday, so I pass by this spot pretty frequently.

My assumption about her death has always been death by misadventure. It's incredibly common for people to stop and get out of their cars and take photos of, or get a closer look at, the lake even in the winter. There are commonly mini icebergs floating in the water, or waves breaking up over the ice, or if the lighting is right the ice on the lake will take on a spectacular blue color. So I speculate that she just walked over to the shore to get a better look and either slipped and fell down onto the lake or purposely went out onto the lake to see something or photograph something and broke through.

Agreed. At least as far as *something* got her to cross the street for a look. Maybe the sermon hit her a certain kind of way and she needed to take a moment for some quiet reflection, water and lakes are very calming. She fell, she maybe hit her head on one of the rocks when she went down in there and nature took over.

"There's a foot print with some sliding going on"

Also, the notion that you couldn't see someone in black in water is baffling. It's not neon. Like, people know water isn't really blue right?

and I guess it needs saying, but PIs are not objective investigators. They're being paid to find the answers that fit the needs of their clients.

Thank you! God forbid someone shoots me and plants the gun, these people on this forum and others that shall remain nameless would rule it a suicide.

I’m very tired of the skeptics who think every mysterious death is a suicide. At this point, I just roll my eyes and move on. They aren’t the kind of person I want to converse with.

I’m very tired of the skeptics who think every mysterious death is a suicide. At this point, I just roll my eyes and move on. They aren’t the kind of person I want to converse with.

It's definitely not a suicide. Though I'd love someone to take us through why this must be a murder.

There's a strange phenomenon on this board about everything being suicide instead of foul play.

I think it's the opposite actually. People are too invested in the family's version of events and that is the one presented on UM. There should be skepticism about every segment, especially the ones about "they were soooo happy, they would never kill themselves, it was MURDER".

I think it's the opposite actually. People are too invested in the family's version of events and that is the one presented on UM. There should be skepticism about every segment, especially the ones about "they were soooo happy, they would never kill themselves, it was MURDER".

It's an odd stance. If people are lazy or sheep for jumping to suicide, based on someone saying so on a TV show, what are the ones who jump to murder and conspiracy for the same reason? It's the exact same, there's no moral superiority to believing one over the other.

The dog on the ice story actually makes more sense than suicide OR murder.

The dog on the ice story actually makes more sense than suicide OR murder.

I would agree had it not been for multiple people, including her daughter, as describing her behavior in the days prior to her disappearance as "paranoid". I originally thought she may have gone over to look at the lake and slipped on the ice/snow and slid down the embankment, and when she tried to regain her balance, she slipped again into the water. The only problem is that if this happened, why did she not just get back out of the water or yell for help?

IThe only problem is that if this happened, why did she not just get back out of the water or yell for help?

To the first part quoted above, if by some chance her shoes were still on when she entered the water, she could have slipped, fell and hit a rock that knocked her unconsciousness. To the second part, maybe she did yell for help but would she have been heard if she was down a small embankment and cars were driving by?

To the first part quoted above, if by some chance her shoes were still on when she entered the water, she could have slipped, fell and hit a rock that knocked her unconsciousness. To the second part, maybe she did yell for help but would she have been heard if she was down a small embankment and cars were driving by?

She had no wounds to her head, so that rules out being knocked unconscious by a rock.

To the first part quoted above, if by some chance her shoes were still on when she entered the water, she could have slipped, fell and hit a rock that knocked her unconsciousness. To the second part, maybe she did yell for help but would she have been heard if she was down a small embankment and cars were driving by?

Watching this the first time, I figured death by accident due to perhaps an attempt to scare her gone wrong.

Now, after watching Robin's GetVokl and finding out all the new info, I still say accident, but not by anyone's hand.

A couple of ideas:

It could be that when she was going to her car, she fell and hit her head. She's startled but functional, so she goes to get gas to go home. However, after a few minutes, she becomes slightly disoriented and pulls her car over at the church with the intention of calling one of her daughters to pick her up.

However, she either 1. Hears something across the street that has her concerned, like a dog, or what not or 2. THINKS she hears an animal or some commotion across the street (remember, she hit her head and probably got her bell rung pretty good.).

She goes across the street to investigate. With those shoes, she trips on some ice under the snow and slides down the embankment but lands on that ledge. Disoriented, startled, and now in pitch black, she tries to climb back up and falls in the water.

I thought the current couldn't carry her far enough down to Boblo Island, but I did some research and found that it could be possible.

So, I don't think she committed suicide, but I don't think anyone was involved in her death besides herself unintentionally.

Finally got around to seeing this episode, and this being a local interest story for me I'm surprised it took so long.

1) I just cannot buy any part of the families murder scenario that hinges on someone not noticing a parked car. That Lexus never moved. A kidnaping occurring in a well lit open area directly adjacent to a main road, that at 7-8pm on a weekday would have light to moderate traffic, would be brazen. This is an area where if anything happens out of the ordinary someone will call the police. This is pretty much where she was parked https://goo.gl/maps/p7UL3VgZFpYuqSg48

2) A body will sure as hell float out of Lake St. Clair and down the Detroit River all the way down to Boblo Island. The Detroit River has a stiff current year round, and the area she was found is known as "Downriver" for a reason as the water flows down that way. If she were found 38 miles to the north then it would be suspicious.

3) She was suffering from some kind of mental health issue featuring delusions of being stalked and having her phones tapped.

4) I'm not convinced it was a suicide. I would lean 80% accidental death, 20% suicide. What was she doing down by the water? No idea. Maybe the light was reflecting off the water just right and she wanted to go pray down by the water, or she wanted to go touch the water and bless herself with it. Maybe she just wanted to see the view, just like these kids that google caught making out https://goo.gl/maps/tCFefs123KkQh1qY8 . It's a pretty location, I don't blame them.

A0KTjGtEM7I

An hour long profile of the case produced by the local news featuring new interviews with family members. Probably the biggest thing that this might reveal is that the Canadian medical examiner didn't find water in her lungs.