Hello all,

This is my first post here and I am delighted to find a place to discuss "Leave it to Beaver!" I watch it for many reasons.

1. It is a very intertaining show (reminds me of "The Little Rascals"
2. The time period in phoney a America is too much!
3. It was a "Police State" show and regulated a"Brainwashed" cirriculam with concern to "Authorities", "Police" (the law in genral) , "Teachers" (and school structure) and of cource "Parents." (again. Police.)

So when I watch the show, there is not a line of action I miss that continuously showcases the "Great White Way!" But more on that later.

Here is what I think of, not June Cleaver, but Barbara Billingsly:

She was a model in her earlier life and it shows! She is a vain and unemotional human being incapable of an honest gesture. Her thinness is vain, her smile is fake and slim, as well as her expressions and her voice tone is mainly condisending. In most cases she does not approve.

She is never interested in her boys, only in the arangement of structure. I think that part is constant with the chracter.

Because she is not a real actor, you can see a lot of Barbara in June.

The next time you see the opening credits, check this out:

In the one that opens with the boys in the bedroom, when the parents come in to wake them up for school (you just know it's a school day!) Look at Barbara.

She has phisicaly nothing to do with them at all! She is vain and phisicaly removed from them in a sterile and cold manner, she can't help it! That is one of the reasons that I watch the show!

Anyway watch at the end of that opening scene in the bedroom as the camaera pans to Beaver. Her hands are to her side like the department store manikin that she was (the very image of June!)

The other is the opening where everyone comes out of the house. Do you get the impression that "The Munsters" took that idea?

Look at the way June looks! She is soooooo Haughty, what a Plastic woman looking at her husband for ques.

The best is the way she looks at Wally after he passes her yikes...haughty...again and then look at the way she cant act looking out at her boys going to school...you can tell she is looking at a camera and is waiting for the director to say, "cut!"

June is the reason I watch the show!

She is so DRY I need a cooler by me when I watch the show!

My 2 cents :eek: :eek: :eek: :D :wave::

Okay, that's your opinion. However, you say that you are critiquing Barbara Billingsley and not June Cleaver. Yet, most of the points you make are about JUNE. You qualify your statements by saying that Barbara cannot act, therefore she IS June. How do you know that? She might possibly be such a wonderful actress that her performance is seamless, and thus causes the viewer to believe that she and June are one and the same. Do you know anything about the real Barbara Billingsley that can justify your statements?

Yes, she was a model. That's about all that I know about her personal life. She is very beautiful, in my opinion, and would therefore be a good model. I have no problem with her history.

Looking at her acting history (at http://us.imdb.com/M/person-exact?Billingsley%2C%20Barbara ) you can see that she has credits as far back as 1945, more than a decade prior to LITB. She did not begin her acting career with the TV show.

Have you seen her in anything other that LITB? I, for one, thought she was hilarious in "Airplane" where she was talking "jive".

You are entitled to your opinion about JUNE based upon what you see on the screen, but to claim that it is Barbara Billingsley that you dislike because JUNE behaves a certain way is not only unfair, but quite narrow-minded.

Just MY opinion.

Narrow minded? Did you read what I wrote? I am not mixing the person from the chracter. Barbara's qualities come out in the chracter, that is my point.

I am not trying to create a flame. believe me.

I just think she is a cold bitch, watch more closely and you may catch on.

It never ceases to amaze me how "detatched" she is - it's beautiful in a deranged sort of way....not my way.

I am not narrow but extremly expansive, try me! :)

Just wondering a few things. By Arien do you mean Aryan the group of people, or Arien a person with Aries as horoscope sign? Also, does June Cleaver remind you of some woman you dislike in your personal life? Your mother perhaps? Do mother characters on other sitcoms bother you this much?

<<"You are entitled to your opinion about JUNE based upon what you see on the screen, but to claim that it is Barbara Billingsley that you dislike because JUNE behaves a certain way is not only unfair, but quite narrow-minded.">>

I agree. You ARE entitled to your own opinion, but that was kind of harsh to say about someone. I mean, have you ever met Barbara Billingsley in person and found out for yourself she is really the way you described her? If you have then fine, that's what you think of her, but I'm pretty sure you haven't. I mean think about it...This show was filmed in the FIFTIES. That's the way women were portrayed on TV, the only way they were ALLOWED to be portrayed was as proper perfect people. And also, in all of the articles I have read about the show and the actors on it, the actors had nothing but nice comments about Ms. Billingsley. Frank Bank (Lumpy) said she was a genuinely NICE person with heart of gold, and Jerry Mathers (Beaver, of course) said she was one of his favorite people. If she was truly such a haughty shallow person, do you think these things would have been said about her? All I am saying is all you have ever seen is JUNE, not Barbara. Barbara was not June.

My two cents

Gentalmen, relax!

I am not ranting about June. I also have no problem with my mother!

Next time you watch the show, all I ask is pay attention to her White, yes I mean Arien, ways. She is removed, functions from duty and mechanical asociations.

It is just a frickin great show, but lets not get all bent out of shape with my discriptions.

I am sorry if I offended anyone, truly!

:wave:

The sleeping pills are starting to kick in when I say your reading too much into Leave it to Beaver, but your right in the fact that in the show she seems to come off emotionless. But that is really the character of June Cleaver, the good houswife who does EVERYTHING for her family. As for Barbara the person, im not sure. There was this episode of Roseanne which had all those old TV moms on it and I think she was one of them anyway I dont really recall what she did in that episode but they were all out of their typical characters and probably more like the people they really are.

Originally posted by Mad John
Gentalmen, relax!

I am not ranting about June.
Hmm... you repeatedly say that you are NOT ranting about JUNE.

Yep! Got it!

But, what you fail to see yourself is that we are upset with the fact that you are attacking BARBARA BILLINGSLEY! And that your attack is based upon her portrayal of June Cleaver. Now, if you don't like June, then that's fine, but to use the characteristics of a fictional character to lambaste a real-life human being who simply played the part in a TV show is uncalled for.

Let me get this straight...
If an actor does a great job at portraying a character, then of course he/she must not really be acting. Your supposition is that since such a grand job has been done by that actor, that indeed, he/she must BE just like that character.

Okay...... just off the top of my head:

Boris Karloff really WAS Frankenstein's monster
Anthony Hopkins really WAS Hannibal Lechter
Elizabeth Montgomery really WAS Lizzie Bordon
Tom Hanks really WAS the challenged Forrest Gump
Dustin Hoffman really WAS the challenged "Rain Man" (I forget the character's name)
Sally Field really WAS Sybil, with all those multiple personalities

And I suppose this is also the case with:
Jack Haley as the Tin Man ~ Yep, I am sure that Jack Haley had no heart, and cared for no one else because of it.
Bert Lahr as the Cowardly Lion ~ Watch out, he might bite! He had to be a nasty person to play such a grouch, huh?
Ray Bolger as the Scarecrow ~ Gee, Ray Bolger was sure dumb, wasn't he? After all, he had no brain.

And on and on and on and on and...

*sigh*



Originally posted by Mad John
I am sorry if I offended anyone, truly!

:wave:
The problem here is that I don't believe you are sorry. I think you intended to create an uncomfortable situation.

I'm done. Oh, and I'm female, though sometimes I do act more a gentleman than many men I encounter.
Oops! Maybe I shouldn't use the word "act."

:rolleyes:

Jesus, what would you have me say? I am wasteing my time responding to such nonsence!

Let me tell you something. You need to get out more my dear! This June/Barbara issue has gone way out of hand!

You are arguing with my assesment that the chracter is not cold...no matter. Wether Barbara being the actuwal person, or the chracter of June Clever....ither way I dont care enough to continuwaly argue with you, since you find her to be a warm and tender mother.

I still say she is one of the coldest TV moms of all time, she is plastic, souless and I get a kick out of her weak ways!

What is your problem with that may I ask?

Too bad you dont think that I being sincere about my apology, but this is ridiculous.

You are oviously not as "critical" as I am and thats fine, but I am not wrong it pointing out the privious statements made in suporting my statements regarding "June's" haughty personality are well founded in sublinal fact.

You just have to be observant, not "narrow minded!"

Forget I said Barbara Billingsly, since it really matters not, just watch June that Cold Plastic Mechanical Mom a little closer in regard to her sons (especially Wally!) and you will find a woman who gave birth to 2 children, that has to constantly ask her husband qestions that she would know herself if the house (Mechnical) and outer concerns were not the true object of interest.

Hey, lets not forget what the neighbors would say.......

:eek:

Let me get my 2 cents out.

WARNING! I do not mean to piss anybody off with my opinions, nor am I trying to start another World War. You can either read my post or not. You have been warned

Barbara always looked like she would be a sweet person, and I can refer to the post that refers to Frank Bank and Jerry Mather's books and they say that she is a sweet and kind person. If she was a b****, I think they would come out and say it. Look at Frank's book on that, he tells the reader exactly who he thought was a butt.

You do have to remember this show took place in the 50's. I thought the June character showed a lot of love toward her sons and her husband. June was just a nervous kind of character. She's different than Madge Blake's character, so I'm not sure I can explain it correctly. June tried to do the best for her sons, but she didn't always know how little boys or teenagers acted. Remember the paper delivery episode and June helped Beaver get the papers out on time? That was only a small piece of love throughout the whole series.

June just reacted differently than Ward did. If the boys got into trouble (like the telescope episode) remember Ward went out and bought the boys a real telescope instead of the cheap toy that was sent out? That showed a different kind of love than June showed. June showed motherly love, and Ward showed fatherly love.

Okay, I know my post may not make the best sense. And I hope I didn't make anybody mad with my 2 cents.

The original post reminds me of what I hear soap opera actors and actresses express. They are so closely associated with their characters that some fans go up to them and say things like "I hate you! How could you have done that to so-and-so!", because the fans cannot dis-associate the actor from the role.

If any of you All My Children fans remember a long time ago "Ray Gardner". The character was despicable. Right after he was killed off for the first time anyway, the actor was seen in a commercial for I think Grape-Nuts cereal. I remember thinking that I certainly wouldnt buy GrapeNuts if Ray Gardner ate them! It was hard for me to dis-associate.

By the way, I like June Cleaver (and probably Barbara Billingsley). She's a hoot!

:D

Originally posted by Mad John
I still say she is one of the coldest TV moms of all time, she is plastic, souless and I get a kick out of her weak ways!

What is your problem with that may I ask?

...


Forget I said Barbara Billingsly, since it really matters not, ...
Hmm...

I was done, but can't resist this one:

You see, this was my whole point. You did say Barbara Billingsley; in fact you singled her out over June Cleaver. Now you're saying to forget that fact. Hmm... yes, that fact does matter. It was the sole reason I responded in the first place.

Hey, if you don't like June that's fine with me. I said that before. If you want to critique June Cleaver and the "cold mother" image you see in her, I'm fine with that too. I have no "problem" with debate over the good and bad qualities of a fictional character.

I do have a problem with an attack on an actor simply because someone doesn't like the character he/she plays. As said before as well, by me and others, June is not Barbara; Barbara is not June.


:)

:lol:

Mysty eyes, I agree, you do have a problem!

Why don't you let this go?

My point was from an acute observation over a long period of time of watching the chracter "June" behave in ways that I really feel were a large part of Barbara's personality.

Did you ever stop to think how "elete" she is in comparison to her sons. Her manner suggests that her Crap don't stink.

Dont be upset for me for trashing her, you all dont know her ither, so take it easy. I say this from love, although it would seem to some I am "Trying to create an uncomfortable situation."

I am not such a bad chap. I agree I was being harsh, but the show is ridiculous when it comes to the real object of it's intent.

What do you believe the reasons were in createing telivion shows like this? And dont say comercials....ha!

Brainwashing folks! Pure unadulterated Brainwashing.

The systen was not just spelled out, they were brainwashing kids to be little obediant robots, go to college, pay your goverment, follow the understoon lawful structure.

Thank God for the 60's, right!?

June is a symbol of an unconcerned mother that simply goes with the underlineing society control understanding, that keeps school teachers, police and judges all makeing sure you DONT DISOBEY the conditioning of the controllers.

Watch the way they respond to the concepts of Indians, those stupied American jerks, who cant even speak thier own language, or use personal names properly.

The American personality from shows like this show "Period Breath" school teachers, stern rigidness, souless and hollow personalities, sure everyone is nice, but look at them, they are also fake with there uncomfortable social greetings with just about every situation that comes up.

Of course they are, thay are the modern American consummers who dont know the difference, because they are too busy being American creeps that cant express thier thoughts.

Whats wrong with Wally for Christ sakes? He seems like such a nice boy, but he has no self image and he is kind of inbarressed to be alive....THE PARENTS!

The parents care more about what society thinks than thier own family....and that is a subliminal teaching to the viewer, so that order would be followed and submission!

The control factor of the goverment was intence at this time and you better believe they were working hard to comerialize the times for many different reasons, all I might add with out YOU knowing it.

I am not looking into this too deeply as some may think. I happen to know what the Telivion purpose really was about and sitcomes are the most ovious as to what then they were trying to acomplish.

Go Uncle Milty (SAM), lets make this a real country! It will be easier with those reservations removed so we can start to develope Springfield, USA, a place that does not exsisit, but we will put it there, along with the dopey (hey they call themselves this) American's who think they are picking the newspaper off thier lawn on Maple drive (Maple my ass!) and reading about what happened yeaterday..................

Please people, get with it!


:dance:

Mad John,
I just wanted to say that I apologize for going into such a big spill about Barbara Billingsley. My view hasn't changed but I guess all I was trying to say was I don't think people should judge other people they have never met, that's all. Your opinion is your opinion and that's all. I had no idea this would become such an arguement! I am saying this in hopes that this thing will finally be put to rest...
:rolleyes:

Hi Beaver's Biggest Fan,

Thank you for your kind responce, I to am sorry if I have offended anyone, I did not want to get anyone upset, please believe me when I say that, it was truly not my intent.

By all means lets disolve this rant!

I am delighted to be on this board and would love to converse with you all on what was great about LITB!

I care about the human condition you see, as I am sure all of you do.

I believe I could still stress that if one is observant and willing to look a little more closely, there just may be some truth to the underlineing factor that suports the show.

I hope we can all get together and have some wonderful discussions on the show.

Remeber, ironic as it may seem, June is my favorite chracter and I truly enjoy the show, but June is my target of observation, for she symbolizes the conflict at hand (Wally's speech inpediment - thought process, perhaps?) and I only thought I would raise the issue thinking I would have some amens.

I also realize my style of expression can seem rather strong and one sided, but I am a very open and loveing human being who cares about how conditions affect the way we percieve our lives!

Indians on Maple street would be an intresting sitcom discussion!

I hate seeing stupieity in others. They made Beaver into an impossibly dumb (but good hearted) boy! Why so dumb?

Ward: "Beaver, some day you will LEARN to make your own decisions." Wow!

I wont finish the dialog, but the show is based on American stupitity and the notion that children are not born with creative souls that everything they think and know about comes from the education that they consume and as long has they have the correct answer, they are right and can move on to the next leval, ovoiusly the very thing that is the real goal is - sameness!

To be different is to be an outsider.

Love and repect.

Peace and Dreams to you all,

:)

Hi all,
This is not about rekindling this discussion, which seems to have been resolved peacefully. It's just a note to the individual known as bus_stop:

Yes, Barbara Billingsley was in that "Roseanne" episode with all the other TV moms in it. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was Barbara who uttered the memorable line near the end of the show, after hearing what Roseanne's salary was, "*I'd* make out with a chick for that kind of dough!" (I'm not sure if those were the exact words but that's close enough.)


Later,
Art

Originally posted by Mysty Eyes

The problem here is that I don't believe you are sorry. I think you intended to create an uncomfortable situation.

I'm done. Oh, and I'm female, though sometimes I do act more a gentleman than many men I encounter.
Oops! Maybe I shouldn't use the word "act."

:rolleyes:



Wonderful post, Misty Eyes!! But with regards to your examples of Boris Karloff, Anthony Hopkins, Elizabeth Montgomery,
Tom Hanks, etc...

You forgot one...I mean, didn't we all suspect all along that Julia Roberts was a whore? How else can one explain her being that good in "Pretty Woman" unless she really was that way in real life!!

Originally posted by cablejockey
Just wondering a few things. By Arien do you mean Aryan the group of people, or Arien a person with Aries as horoscope sign? Also, does June Cleaver remind you of some woman you dislike in your personal life? Your mother perhaps? Do mother characters on other sitcoms bother you this much?

I totally agree with cablejockey. I think the real reason Mad John is posting here is because he has a real problem with his own mother. Maybe this is the only way he can get it out of his system. Mad John, please do us all a favor and learn how to write and, especially, spell correctly.:)

Charlie you are an Ass hole!

You pretentious son of a Bitch!

This should of all been over, but now you have broken the scab.

You agree, piss off!

Who cares what you think?! You are wrong and this is completly ridulous.

I dont spell well so what.

Leave this alone, unless you want a war!

I agree with everything Tweety, cablejockey, and Charlie Max said.

Originally posted by Mad John
Hi Beaver's Biggest Fan,

Thank you for your kind responce, I to am sorry if I have offended anyone, I did not want to get anyone upset, please believe me when I say that, it was truly not my intent.

I care about the human condition you see, as I am sure all of you do...

I also realize my style of expression can seem rather strong and one sided, but I am a very open and loveing human being who cares about how conditions affect the way we percieve our lives!


Love and repect.

Peace and Dreams to you all,

:)

My, oh my, oh my. Look at what has become of the courteous gentleman. Why all this vulgarity? We are showing our true colors, aren't we? Did I make you mad, Mad John? There is no need for you to throw a tantrum. Using profanity won't get you anywhere. It only leaves you in the gutter and shows what kind of person you really are. To mix your political views with a show such as LITB is irrelevant. I'll bet you anything that politics didn't even cross the producers' minds. Who cares what I think? Frankly, I could not care less. But, what makes you think that anybody cares about what you say? Probably not even your mother. Do you want to know what is really ridiculous? All your posts put together. Fortunately, not all of us are as immature as others who resort to profanity and vulgarity in an attempt to express themselves.
Have a nice day.:lol:

Hey Charlie,

The fact that you have not a clue to any sincere point here is ovious!

As far as your assessment of me, that is what is ridulous to me, you pompass ass!

"Not going to get me anywhere?" "In the gutter?" "Show what you really are?"

**** you and your nice day creep.

Maturity indeed.

Political view, my ass!

I guess I was too far off the marker about brainwashing you idiot!

So far you seem to be a prick that attacks me personaly, where I would have never of done that to you, had I not been insulted in such a childish manner. (like Eddie Haskel!)

This is a waste of everyones time.

You think you know my chracter by reading a few posts huh?

Be very careful with who you acuse and stop those quotes, there really annoying, your not in court, Charlie!:rolleyes:

Correction: Ward didn't buy the boys a telescope. He bought them an authentc movie projector when the perfume company sent out a crappy toy one ("The Perfume Salesmen") I liked June in LITB and her role as the "Jive Lady" in airplane was hilarious. Someone here told us that they wrote to Barbara Billingsly for an autograph and she sent back a picture and signed her name with "June" in quotes. Just a question, whom did Frank Bank or Jerry Mathers not get along with in the show as mentioned in their books? I don't have either one of the books. The only thing about Barbara is that as June, June wanted to be in control. She was a very nice lady, but couldn't take it if her house was a mess...(I've known people like this.) She was also imposing on other people's business a little too much. But this didn't make her a bad person. This was just the way that "June" was. But you can't say Barbara was like that in real life because we don't know what she was like in really life. If Jerry and Frank saw her as compassionate, that's good enough for me!

Jack

Hi all,
You know -- it really is such a shame that any imbecile with a computer, internet access and at least one working finger is allowed to pollute a forum in which normal human beings communicate, with his (or her) utterly valueless opinions and completely un-called-for vulgarities. Aren't there guidelines for this board, and doesn't anyone monitor this thing?

Jee, hoo cood I be tawking about? Ken ennybuddy gess?

Later,
Art

P.S. I hope haven't offended ennywon. It's just the way I express myself -- it sometimes kums off rather strong. If so, please forgive me 'cause I'm really the sweetest guy in the werld.

Originally posted by Artfiore1
Hi all,
You know -- it really is such a shame that any imbecile with a computer, internet access and at least one working finger is allowed to pollute a forum in which normal human beings communicate, with his (or her) utterly valueless opinions and completely un-called-for vulgarities. Aren't there guidelines for this board, and doesn't anyone monitor this thing?

Jee, hoo cood I be tawking about? Ken ennybuddy gess?

Later,
Art

P.S. I hope haven't offended ennywon. It's just the way I express myself -- it sometimes kums off rather strong. If so, please forgive me 'cause I'm really the sweetest guy in the werld.

Art,

I got such a laugh at your post. My guess why TJ hasn't shut this thread down yet is because of the fact the Beaver board hardly gets into any fights, unlike boards like the FOL board or The Division board which seems to get into a brawl just about everyday. I don't think TJ checks things out on this board, he's busy trying to shut down the fights in the above boards. Just a guess

:lol: :lol:

I was watching Beaver again yesterday and I was noticing how Ward talked to his sons and it had me thinking............

How many sons would've loved a father like Ward? I think alot of Men and young boys would've loved Ward.

As for June........ she does appear cold sometimes & rigid but, hopefully she had some pizzazz in her personal life. :lol:

Watch it JennyLee, they'll start calling you names too...



:lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: I'm getting use to being called names....... :lol:

I bet Barbara Bingsley had Pizazz in her Private life......... You know what they say....... Watch out for those quiet types. :lol: Has anyone read any books on Barbara Bingsley? Did she ever write a book?

Originally posted by Artfiore1

...imbecile with a computer, internet access and at least one working finger...
Jee, hoo cood I be tawking bout? Ken ennybuddy gess?
Later, Art

P.S. I hope haven't offended ennywon. It's just the way I express myself -- it sometimes kums off rather strong. If so, please forgive me 'cause I'm really the sweetest guy in the werld.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Great post, Art. I enjoyed it.:lol: :lol: :lol:

Originally posted by JennyLee22
:lol: :lol: :lol: I'm getting use to being called names....... :lol:

I bet Barbara Bingsley had Pizazz in her Private life......... You know what they say....... Watch out for those quiet types. :lol: Has anyone read any books on Barbara Bingsley? Did she ever write a book?

LOL! It's always the quiet types. Hmm.. I'm not sure if Barbara has a book out. Time to check amazon. I'll edit the post if I find any results

:( I didn't see a book on Barbara. I looked up books for Hugh Beaumont and didn't see any for him either. It's about time someone wrote a biography on them both, or for Barbara to get her autobiography out. This does indeed suck. :(