We've had some discussion about whether either Max and Fran getting together, or even Max and Fran becoming a sort-of couple made the series "jump the shark" but to me, it seems like the problem was they kind of changed direction with the characters, getting away from some of the likable qualities that made the premise.

Fran

I know that start with, the premise was kind of like The Sound of Music. This "outsider" with a fun, bubbly personality comes into a stuffy, repressed, or depressed environment, and his/her bubbly fun-ness rubs off on everyone else and/or makes the person who has given up on love because of some tragedy (the Captain, or Max) fall in love with them. Characters like Fran and Maria are sometimes called "manic pixie dream girls."

I know that there were a couple of episodes right at the beginning where Fran got really good results by doing things her way instead of Max's way or "high society's" way. I know she brings the kids to something against Max's orders in the pilot, but it turns out really well. And then there's the episode where Max wants to train Maggie for high society, so they throw a party, so Max, Niles, and CC try to coach Fran in proper (and, the implication is, fake) society behavior...only to have Fran, by being her natural, genuine, warm self make everyone else relax, loosen up, be themselves, etc.

But, then:

Even though Fran was a success at the high society party in that one episode, she pretty quickly started REGULARLY upsetting and offending people it was important for Max and CC to work with, network with, or impress. She seemed to ruin or jeopardize a lot of business opportunities, and honestly, to screw up pretty much everything she tried having to do with money or business. And a lot of times, she was really dishonest about these things.

(It seems like they moved away from the "socialite" focus - parties for the sake of parties the sake of being high society - and had the socializing that the Sheffields and CC did have more of a business agenda - networking with investors and theater people.)


She seemed to go pretty back-and-forth as to how much she cared about the kids - she did a lot of quitting, threatening to quit, etc. And sometimes following Max to another location (i.e., London at the end of season 4) without much concern for whether she should be with the kids. If the kids were supposed to be benefiting from finally having an adult who cared about them, and if they were really bonded with Fran, you would think this would cause new "issues." Especially if it was about her relationship, or lack thereof, with their dad - it would be kind of like worrying that your parents are going to split up.


She became REALLY obsessive about her age and not being married, and Max's...inconsistency - so she didn't come across as bubbly and fun anymore - sometimes she wasn't even that pleasant. I'm not a big fan of women characters wielding control through being sexually provocative, but I can see that, early on, at least, she did throw Max a little off-balance with her teasing and tricks (hence the "the father finds her beguiling") line. But it seems like around the time he said he loved her and took it back, she started just following him around whining and begging for attention. And no longer doing the things that probably attracted him in the first place. (Actually, it wasn't super-clear she was serious about him until around the point he "took it back.") I think she became more subservient to him and, (and I have said this elsewhere) there are many moments when I think CC comes across as the more independent woman of the two (if only by a small margin) because, even though we see her not happy with how her personal life is going, we do see her focusing on, and succeeding at, things that aren't about men or getting married.


[
[/LIST]It doesn't seem to me like Fran is good at too many things that are either practical (housekeeping) or academic (business) including things you might expect a woman who wanted to be a nanny and/or wife to be good at. And I know she was supposed to have been good for Maggie's self-esteem, but everything about Maggie is about Maggie and boys, and Fran defends and encourages Maggie's boy-obsessiveness. I would think Max would be horrified at the idea of his daughters modeling themselves after Fran and acting around guys the way she does.

Gracie seems to have more interests in addition to boys, and Gracie, it is implied, somewhat looks up to CC.


Fran has some moments of downright nastiness, especially in season 5. She uses her "charms" to get Max to deprive Niles of a vacation, then belittles Niles' heart attack, and even tries to use Max's amnesia to get him into bed (I am, of course, referring to From Flushing with Love - just an all-around weird episode that feels like someone's bizarre dream. Instead of it being unusual that Niles and CC join forces, it gets you thinking - their interests are aligned, you would think they would both be resenting Fran all the time.)


They tried to play CC's emotional issues for laughs...but then gave Fran the same emotional issues. Fran goes to therapy and the therapist draws a parallel between Max's "distance" and Fran's father's...plus, Sylvia is SO pushy about Fran getting married. Issues with parental neglect was something they showed with CC at first, to partly, perhaps, show why she was the way she was. Fran was supposed to be the one good with emotions.


There is an episode following Max's proposal where Fran attends a high society party with him, and is totally NOT accepted and is very upset. It's implied people in his circle didn't know her. Had they changed writers since the episode about her success at the party in season 1 (where everyone loved her for being herself?) Aside from that, she acts totally insecure and upset about not being accepted in season 5 - more of the change of personality from bubbly to whiny.

Max

Early on, Max's emotional issues were supposed to be related to his devastation at losing his first wife. He couldn't contemplate being with anyone else. It was a form of fear of intimacy, or commitment, but it wasn't like "I'd rather be free to date the many women who want me than be tied down." But then he started casually dating other women (The Nose Knows, and the fling we find out about in The Best Man.) He at one point tells Fran sex is too serious for them to do, and then we find out he had a one-night stand. And then there was all that stuff about him being distant, calling her "Miss Fine", working a lot, etc, in season 5, despite him kind of admitting at that point that the two of them were in a relationship. It moved from "he's not over mourning his wife enough to have a relationship" to "he's not a very good significant other even when he's in a relationship." Actually, I think season 5 as a whole kind of flip-flopped between "Max is still distant and not ready to move forward" and "Fran and Max are both ready to move forward but outside forces get in their way." One episode goes one way, the next goes the other, and back and forth.

And, once the commitment / distance issue is resolved, all kinds of real-world compatibility issues crop up, and FRAN becomes then one who seems to question whether she should go through with marrying him. After they were married, there were episodes about them learning to deal with each other's personalities...as if they'd had a whirlwind romance and only known each other a short time.

There was also an episode, post-wedding, where Fran hung out at the country club in an attempt to be more like the first Mrs. Sheffield (so Max wouldn't call her "the nanny.") Now, early on, I think they implied that the Sheffield household became the way it was when Fran showed up mainly because of the trauma of Sara's death. We usually got the impression of her as a warm person, but the country club references make it sound she was an aloof, distant parent as well.

And I don't see Fran having much of an impact on Max -making him less uptight or less workaholic or whatever. When they're newlyweds, he is more focused on being embarrassed about the noise Fran makes in the bedroom than on...enjoying the honeymoon. And he still works on holidays after they are married.

Very thoughtful post.

I'm glad you had this reaction, as opposed to "you're over-analzying a sit-com too much" which I often get. I think what we're discussing shows that it was little more "layered" compared to many sit-coms. Seemed to have a lot of soap opera elements.

I think Fran Drescher had a real interest in artfully ripping off old sitcoms. These episodes are sort like the Lucys where she Lucy grew notorious with famous people.


I think something that maybe went unspoken was that Niles obviously was holding things together during the years when they were running through nanny after nanny, and that he was actually a family member. So he could be trusted with the kids.

I agree with all of this. I'm just saying that Fran was supposed to be an adult who was there for the kids, helped them "heal" somewhat, be happier, more confident, or whatever...and more like a mom than a nanny, and and she did at times profess to consider them hers...and yet...she wasn't that stable or consistent. I would think it would be very hard on the kids to feel so uncertain if she was going to stick around, particularly if it was because she might or not have a relationship with their dad.


There's whole layers of conflict: Maxwell's natural reserve, then the customs of the British upper class against American brashness, then the boss-employee. That would all be pretty hard to work through.

I stopped watching this in first run, because I run out of patience with will they/won't they story lines. I've seen some of the later episodes recently, and am surprised how much I like them.

I actually think a lot of things I referred to - some of Fran's negative traits; the problems she caused for the business; Max and her very real personality differences; and the employer-employee relationship - seem like very real and legitimate reasons to think twice about having a relationship with someone. But the show made it seem like those weren't really Max's reasons. In his private conversations with Niles, he didn't really raise those things as reasons for his doubts...it was all about some kind of fear. The old "I am SO madly in love that I can't pursue this relationship because it's too scary to be around this person" trope (of which I am not a fan.) Or, do you think that was just how Fran saw it, what she believed his reasons were? And the kids issue...I notice that in books and shows, when the character who has kids says they have to cautious about relationships because of how it could affect the kids, their friends and potential love interests always say they're just rationalizing their fear of intimacy...but no, that's a real issue.

But I still think they shifted Max from "doesn't want to date casually or seriously because he's still grieving / loyal to his wife's memory" with the implication that Fran's the only one who even stands a chance of changing that, a la Maria to "dating casually but afraid / reluctant / whatever to get serious with Fran," or "wants everything to be casual and without strings." At the end of season 4, he tells Fran they can't have sex because it's too serious...but it seems like that changed in season 5. We hear about his fling with someone else, and he comes closer to doing it with Fran.

Max does have a conversation with Niles right before the wedding where he admits he's concerned about "living up to Fran's expectations" on the wedding night / honeymoon, giving that it's been so long since he's "been with" someone and given how "experienced" Fran is. Making me wonder if that was part of his conflict throughout the show, too. Maybe given his upbringing (British and/or Catholic), he and Sara were both "inexperienced" and Max is excited by Fran might have to offer in that area, but also feeling guilty, like it's disloyal to Sara and/or scared that he won't be able to meet Fran's needs. On the other hand, he had several lines in between the proposal and the wedding where he came across as kind of a stereotypical "guy with one thing on his mind" (i.e., he was fixating on the upcoming honeymoon.)

I liked the first season best, when Fran was street smart and tough (she threatens CC physically in an early episode). Later on, they made her stupid and daffy, because Fran Drescher wanted to be more like “Lucy”.

I liked the first season best, when Fran was street smart and tough (she threatens CC physically in an early episode). Later on, they made her stupid and daffy, because Fran Drescher wanted to be more like “Lucy”.

I did a whole other thread about how I think every bad / dislikable characteristic of CC was given to Fran, and how CC has some good qualities / talents / abilities Fran didn't have.

When I started watching, I expected Max to be a bumbler and the women to compensate for that. I guess I was thinking of other sit-coms. And while I think CC does seem to have a fair bit of business savvy, Fran really is ditzy about anything to do with money or business, and Max is forever bailing her out, of both financial scrapes and some actually "dangerous" situations.

Edit: And, to be honest, Fran and Max so often clash and fight and are irritated with each other - and seem to have so little in common - that I sometimes wonder why either wants to be with the other. For Max, I often feel like it's purely physical (and he may feel guilty about that), and for Fran, it seems to be a combination of physical and being dazzled by wealth / position / glamour.

As much as Niles and CC insult each other, I have a much easier time believing that they like and respect things about each others besides the physical. Their personalities don't seem as incompatible.

I liked the first season best, when Fran was street smart and tough (she threatens CC physically in an early episode). Later on, they made her stupid and daffy, because Fran Drescher wanted to be more like “Lucy”.

Do you have a take on when you think this change starts to happen? "Jumping the shark" is often associated with the latter seasons of a show - sometimes the writers only have so many ideas - and I think the hysteria and whininess about not being married - and the much-less-pleasant personality as a result - get really bad around the time Max says he loves Fran and takes it back (early season 4), but the incompetence and getting in trouble and being bailed out by Max seem to start much earlier than that. She is offending Max and CC's business contacts as early as the first couple of seasons (Sunday in the Park with Fran; Lamb Chop's on the Menu) and I think she gets arrested in season 3 (after throwing a party.)

We've discussed fanfic elsewhere on these boards, and someone mentioned that it tends to be really racy - I agree. Max is always portrayed as very...consumed by and overcome by lust. Of course, a lot of fanfic about many different characters portrays them that way. Certainly the Niles and CC fics do that for them - but for them, it seems to have basis in canon.

But portraying Max as saying things like he's "addicted" to sex with Fran (as I saw in one fic where they are married but can't do it because of her pregnancy) - well, that doesn't, for me, quite fit with the Max of the show. On their first night as newlyweds, he interrupts the bedroom activities to chide her for being too loud. That doesn't seem like he's especially carried away by the passion. He's not to "into" Fran physically to get irritated with some of these other personality quirks.

There is an episode following Max's proposal where Fran attends a high society party with him, and is totally NOT accepted and is very upset. It's implied people in his circle didn't know her. Had they changed writers since the episode about her success at the party in season 1 (where everyone loved her for being herself?)
It is very much possible that they had changed writers during those four years. But it could also be that they still had the same writers, but they didn't think much about cases of inconsistency between two episodes from two different seasons. After all, many TV shows from the 90s have become notorious for that in retrospect.

Or it could be that, within the world of the show, this happened to be a different group of socialites, who had no appreciation for a new-comer like Fran. New York is a huge city, so I don't think that all the guests at both parties were the same people. Especially not if we consider that the events were four years apart.

I agree that two different sets of guests isn't much of a stretch. More obvious, perhaps, is the change in FRAN. She started out the series very willing to be her genuine self even if it was different from the people now surrounding her - but by season 5 (and not just in this episode, The Dinner Party) she is very insecure and obsessed with what everyone thinks of her. Granted, it matters more if she's going to marry Max (and maybe that's part of the change in other people's reaction, too - they see her getting engaged to Max as aspiring to something she isn't), but it kind of feels like the years of Max waffling and other guys dumping her (she really wasn't any luckier in love than CC!) has destroyed Fran's self-esteem. Some time around when Max first says he loves her and takes it back she becomes very whiny and clingy in trying to get his attention.

And she is shown as helping Maggie be less of a wallflower and more confident (and popular) in social situations, but everything about Maggie was about Maggie and boys. I don't recall Maggie ever showing an interest in a career or cause (to be fair, I know, she doesn't HAVE to work - but again, look at CC) or even having friends who weren't boyfriends. Gracie seems to have other interests - and Gracie seems to have a lot of interest in CC professionally. There is an episode where Gracie has to do a report on "a woman with an interesting career" and CC is her subject - the timing is unfortunate because it's right after Max has "taken back the thing," so it feels to Fran like yet more rejection. And later, Gracie asks CC to direct her school play.

I agree that two different sets of guests isn't much of a stretch. More obvious, perhaps, is the change in FRAN. She started out the series very willing to be her genuine self even if it was different from the people now surrounding her - but by season 5 (and not just in this episode, The Dinner Party) she is very insecure and obsessed with what everyone thinks of her. Granted, it matters more if she's going to marry Max (and maybe that's part of the change in other people's reaction, too - they see her getting engaged to Max as aspiring to something she isn't), but it kind of feels like the years of Max waffling and other guys dumping her (she really wasn't any luckier in love than CC!) has destroyed Fran's self-esteem. Some time around when Max first says he loves her and takes it back she becomes very whiny and clingy in trying to get his attention.
Good points. It is like Fran became less tough and independent as the years went by. Some times, character development is not a good thing. Then again, she is shown as still being streetsmart in bad situations in later years, like in the episode when she and Sylvia are stuck in a bank robbery, or in the episode when she tricks a kidnapper into eating laxative chocolate.

And she is shown as helping Maggie be less of a wallflower and more confident (and popular) in social situations, but everything about Maggie was about Maggie and boys. I don't recall Maggie ever showing an interest in a career or cause (to be fair, I know, she doesn't HAVE to work - but again, look at CC) or even having friends who weren't boyfriends. Gracie seems to have other interests - and Gracie seems to have a lot of interest in CC professionally. There is an episode where Gracie has to do a report on "a woman with an interesting career" and CC is her subject - the timing is unfortunate because it's right after Max has "taken back the thing," so it feels to Fran like yet more rejection. And later, Gracie asks CC to direct her school play.
I have to agree with you about Maggie to maybe 95 %. She is mostly shown as having gone from being a shrinking violet to being boy-crazy. However, she showed an interest in medicine and nursing when she was a candy wrapper at a city hospital (but it was only for one episode, and it was still unavoidable that she would reject her duties to go on a date with her guy of the week). She did have friends too, but the focus was definately not on them. So we hardly saw them on screen.

Fran always got into trouble when she tried something with money or business - sometimes it was ditziness, but there was actual dishonesty also - and Max always bailed her out and/or it caused a problem for Max in terms of messing up a business relationship (usually one CC had cultivated). I don't think this got better over the years, either - it happens in season 6. So, there were reasons for CC not to like Fran that went beyond snobbery (or even jealousy.) It's not hard to see why CC would think she's the better match for Max in terms of also being someone who can be a partner in his business.

And there are a few physically dangerous situations (or situations that could have been dangerous) that Fran does well in - but it seems like Max rescues her from a lot of those, too.

And much as everyone talks about Niles and CC's "love-hate" relationship, often times it seems like Fran and Max have a sexual attraction, but otherwise don't like each other (and have nothing in common.)

In most TV or movie "Free-spirited/unusual meets Stuffy/depressed/conformist and they fall in love" situations, the free-spirited one changes the other. I feel like the opposite happened in The Nanny. Max's uptightness - and focus on his work - continues well into the series - even after he and Fran are married. And there are some changes to the kids, and their lives, compared to when they were just living with Max and Niles after their mother's death, certainly, but they retain a certain stuffiness and colorlessness, too.

And in season 5, the writers couldn't seem to make up their minds whether Max and Fran's relationship was "stalled" due to Max's hang-ups still, or whether they were both ready to move forward but outside forces kept getting in the way...the episodes flip-flop between the two, without a progression that makes sense.

I kind of feel like seasons 4, 5, and 6 flirted with testing a Niles/CC spinoff.

And I don't think they set up much contrast between Fran and CC in terms of approaches to emotions and sexuality. I know CC often made comments about the way Fran dressed being slutty, but CC made a lot of sexual innuendo, come-ons, etc - even before she and Niles got together. There was a lot of sexual undertone to their insults, actually. I know CC is unhappy with how her personal life is going, but I don't see her as someone who thinks she is "not supposed to" have sexual feelings because of rules, propriety, etc. She's unhappy about needing it and not getting it. I think she had a lot of "needs" and Niles was the first/only to live up to degree of passion she needed! It almost seems like having a lot of...passion...in her life is what keeps her from being depressed.

CC talks openly about having had sex with guys she has relationships with pre-Niles (whereas Fran has probably done it with past boyfriends - in fact, I think maybe part of Max's hangup is that he's afraid he can't live up to Fran's needs in this respect - but she doesn't during the years she's the nanny)

CC gets upset in public - or, at least in front of other characters - I guess we could take this as a sign that deep down, she trusts Niles - and is also open about mental health treatment and things wrong with her life - it's not the type of high society character putting on a front of having no emotions, or having the perfect life. We are told she has divorced parents. Now, plenty of rich people get divorced but being divorced suggests they didn't cover up all problems and pretend their lives were perfect, so that's not what CC grew up with.

There are references to Niles and CC having a lot of sex in public places, whereas Max interrupts things in the bedroom to chide Fran for being too loud. (Fanfic always has him going crazy with lust but in the real show, he doesn't get too carried away to be irritated with Fran.)

So, Niles and CC are, well, wilder, and kinkier. Of course, that could be a new departure for CC. I got the impression she always wanted to be like that and was just waiting for the right partner. But if she does change, it's more Niles' doing than Fran's. And of course, Fran was far from always being happy or having healthy relationships with her family. (If there is anyone for whom wild sex is an inconsistency, it's Niles. He has the heart attack at the end of season 4, and there are indications of him not being strong or in great shape...but in the finale, he opens the doors with his bare hands, and from what we hear about CC and his relationship in season 6, it sounds like it would require, well, physical stamina. Maybe his being out of shape is a joke, like CC being ugly?)