I don’t see much talk on here about this case, probably because it is solved and it is a fraud case (I generally find fraud cases to be among my least favorites personally), but I just saw this one on Amazon while rewatching.

As I understand it, only two prototypes of the Dale were produced (at least to near completion) and of those two, only one was able to run. I am curious if the technical specs that the Dale was reported to have were in fact correct in any way. I realize that a fiberglass car will not take the damage that the Dale was supposed to be able to withstand, but I mean the gas mileage and so on. Was there ANY truth to this story at all?

In short, no.

This was never a viable project and it was a scam from the start. While some of the engineers claimed to “believe in the car”, it was not based on science and would never work as advertised.

You can search for it on Google and there are lots of articles about it and the fraud it was.

Tesla Motors is running a similar Ponzi Scheme today.
Basic math exposes an unfortunate truth: there isn't enough Lithium on the planet to make their EVs a viable reality on a wide scale.

Tesla Motors is running a similar Ponzi Scheme today.
Basic math exposes an unfortunate truth: there isn't enough Lithium on the planet to make their EVs a viable reality on a wide scale.

But I want a flame thrower :D

In short, no.

This was never a viable project and it was a scam from the start. While some of the engineers claimed to “believe in the car”, it was not based on science and would never work as advertised.

You can search for it on Google and there are lots of articles about it and the fraud it was.

I wondered this, too, because the engineers didn't seem to be idiots.. So.. My question on it was the one they interviewed.. I think it was Dale Clifft? Was he in on the scam, or was he just.. A high functioning idiot?

Yes, I'm being a bit mean about that because I've kinda convinced myself that he was in on it, but Carmichael scammed him, too. Scammer scammed the scammer?

But.. If I relax just a bit and think about it.. Sometimes the engineers or people who come up with the ideas put on blinders and just believe in their ideas so much that they can't see the issues with it, and that's a possibility of what happened with him.

But I want a flame thrower :D

Well at least that seems legit. As far as I can tell Space X is legit, too (Though I haven't done any diligence on it).

Tesla Motors is a scam IMO.

I wondered this, too, because the engineers didn't seem to be idiots.. So.. My question on it was the one they interviewed.. I think it was Dale Clifft? Was he in on the scam, or was he just.. A high functioning idiot?

Yes, I'm being a bit mean about that because I've kinda convinced myself that he was in on it, but Carmichael scammed him, too. Scammer scammed the scammer?

But.. If I relax just a bit and think about it.. Sometimes the engineers or people who come up with the ideas put on blinders and just believe in their ideas so much that they can't see the issues with it, and that's a possibility of what happened with him.

Sociopath "Cult of Personality" types have that magic touch. They can seemingly convince anyone of anything, mostly by preying on human weaknesses.

Most of what I have read online about this, and I’ll admit that I haven’t gone down the rabbit hole on it at all, says the entire thing was a scam and notes the “prototype” that was found was not functional. This seems to be the same version noted in UM. However, a couple of sources, including Wikipedia (which is the word of God of course lol) state that there were two prototypes that were made that looked complete on the outside and of those one would actually “run” and function in some capacity as a working car. Apparently a rebuilt/repurposed motorcycle engine was what it used, but the info I found stops short of saying if this was merely to have a working model or if the super qualities the Dale was supposed to have were due to this rebuilt engine (hopefully I’m making sense here).

Most of what I have read online about this, and I’ll admit that I haven’t gone down the rabbit hole on it at all, says the entire thing was a scam and notes the “prototype” that was found was not functional. This seems to be the same version noted in UM. However, a couple of sources, including Wikipedia (which is the word of God of course lol) state that there were two prototypes that were made that looked complete on the outside and of those one would actually “run” and function in some capacity as a working car. Apparently a rebuilt/repurposed motorcycle engine was what it used, but the info I found stops short of saying if this was merely to have a working model or if the super qualities the Dale was supposed to have were due to this rebuilt engine (hopefully I’m making sense here).

You could try contacting the Museum of American Speed in Lincoln, NE.
It appears as though they have a replica or one of the original prototypes.
They too write about a working prototype on their webpage. I'm not sure who else would have accurate info on this. Perhaps, Liz Carmichael? LOL.

I still don't get how nobody knew Liz was male....

Liz had charisma. She obviously made a lasting impression.

Hot take: Liz made a real car that did everything that was promised, but "They" wouldn't let it get out, so they killed it. The ACTUAL Dale is currently at Area 51. George H.W. Bush, being the head of the CIA, personally drove it there. The only gas that was in it was in the fuel filter, and it's STILL got some in it. It's currently parked next to a functioning water engine and Bob Lazar's UFO.

The truth is out there...

But.. If I relax just a bit and think about it.. Sometimes the engineers or people who come up with the ideas put on blinders and just believe in their ideas so much that they can't see the issues with it, and that's a possibility of what happened with him.
I originally thought that since Engineers are so intelligent, if they say it's a real car I have to trust them. This is further compounded by the fact that cars aren't nearly as efficient as they could be and it's absurd how we are still using such outdated technology but I won't get into that conspiracy.

Now, as an adult with an Engineer brother and knowing many Professional Engineers, they can be some of the most blind and naive people around. As an example, my brother was once in an advanced engineering class: they had to work on a major group project that was the magnus opus of their schooling, spent literal months on it day and night..... and there was a major typo on the front cover.

Now, as an adult with an Engineer brother and knowing many Professional Engineers, they can be some of the most blind and naive people around. As an example, my brother was once in an advanced engineering class: they had to work on a major group project that was the magnus opus of their schooling, spent literal months on it day and night..... and there was a major typo on the front cover.

https://pics.me.me/24-86-pull-midvale-school-for-the-gifted-30494358.png

One thing that always stood out to me about this segment was that its treatment of Liz Carmichael’s gender identity was surprisingly sensitive for its time (use of female pronouns, no transphobic remarks, etc.). I do believe her transition was genuine, even if her business plan wasn’t.

One thing that always stood out to me about this segment was that its treatment of Liz Carmichael’s gender identity was surprisingly sensitive for its time (use of female pronouns, no transphobic remarks, etc.). I do believe her transition was genuine, even if her business plan wasn’t.

I'm not sure how old you are, but you're buying into some notion of bigotry of the past that never existed.

The UM episode wasn't biased, because that was the social standard of the time.

I'm not sure how old you are, but you're buying into some notion of bigotry of the past that never existed.

The UM episode wasn't biased, because that was the social standard of the time.

Oh, this guy again.

Actually, I remember quite a bit of bigotry in this case from people discussing it back in the 1980s and even today to some extent. Not my opinion, but I have seen others basically express the opinion that “of course it was a scam! That guy is some kind of freak!”

Again, not my feelings on the matter, but UM did indeed present the story in a more PC format.

Actually, I remember quite a bit of bigotry in this case from people discussing it back in the 1980s and even today to some extent. Not my opinion, but I have seen others basically express the opinion that “of course it was a scam! That guy is some kind of freak!”

Again, not my feelings on the matter, but UM did indeed present the story in a more PC format.

Agreed. They could have told the story and painted Liz in a much harsher lighr.

Telsa is the same as the dale only some cars made then other on back order so they can make the money at least in my opinion

https://www.sitcomsonline.com/photos/theladyandthedale.jpg

HBO Documentary Films’ THE LADY AND THE DALE, a four-part documentary series from Emmy®-winning producers Mark and Jay Duplass (HBO’s “Room 104”) and directed by Nick Cammilleri and Zackary Drucker, traces the audacious story of Elizabeth Carmichael, a larger-than-life entrepreneur who rose to prominence during the 1970s oil crisis with her promotion of a fuel-efficient, three-wheeled car known as The Dale. At a time when three big American automobile manufacturers ruled the road, Liz launched a futurist vehicle that promised to get 70 miles to the gallon.

Her promotional zeal thrust her into fierce public and media scrutiny which uncovered a web of mystery and suspicion about the car’s technology and her own checkered past. THE LADY AND THE DALE is a probing exploration of family and identity seen through the lens of the rise and fall of a fearless and wily innovator, an extraordinarily resilient woman and a dedicated parent. The series debuts with two back-to-back episodes SUNDAY, JANUARY 31 (9:00-11:00 p.m. ET/PT), with new episodes airing subsequent Sundays at 9:00 p.m. ET/PT.

THE LADY AND THE DALE will premiere on HBO and be available to stream on HBO Max.

In 1974 in the midst of the Middle East oil crisis, a new, innovative automobile promised America high mileage and a low-price tag; its three-wheeled, slick design is a hopeful harbinger of things to come. Behind the development and promotion of The Dale, was Elizabeth Carmichael, who had previously lived a life of crime, on the run from authorities, and always cooked up preposterous mayhem. She claimed to have smuggled arms to Cuba during the revolution and was wanted by the FBI. With several ex-wives and children in her wake, she eventually wedded soulmate Vivian Barrett. They and their five children lived on the run from the law for many years with Liz starting her transition in 1966. As a woman in the 1970s, with her past kept hidden and a new identity as a widow with a business degree, Liz Carmichael founded the 20th Century Motor Car Company and made a name for herself in the male-dominated business world. A savvy marketer, Carmichael claimed that The Dale would be the biggest thing since the Model T and would challenge Detroit’s iron grip on the auto industry.

Interest in the Dale intensified, accelerated by Carmichael’s boasts of its efficiency and safety but also fueled by the company’s dubious business practices. With that spotlight came increased focus on Liz’s identity and gender. As media attention was heating up and frustrated investors clamoring at her door, Carmichael was arrested for fraud and business code violations before The Dale could even hit the streets.

The trial that followed was one of the longest in Los Angeles criminal court’s history and became as much about Carmichael’s transgender identity as it was about The Dale. Representing herself in the high-profile case, Carmichael challenged the prejudices of the time, but the surrounding media circus obfuscated the issues; Liz as a person was under interrogation as much as her business practices. The scrutiny into her life would continue for decades, even as she continually found surprising ways to outwit her pursuers, persist in her own survival and keep her family together.

THE LADY AND THE DALE uses an arresting and inventive technique of marrying archival material with photo collages and animation to illustrate Carmichael’s experiences, combining audio recordings with interviews while framing Carmichael’s story within a broader history of trans experiences. Shedding light on Liz Carmichael’s life and on the dogged investigations into her past and gender identity are Candi Michael, Liz’s daughter; Michael Michael, Liz’s son; Jeri Burchard, Liz’s granddaughter; Dick Carlson, local TV reporter; Pete Noyes, KABC news producer; Charles Richard Barrett, Liz’s brother-in-law; and lawyers, prosecutors and employees of 20th Century Motor Car Company. Historian Susan Stryker, Gender and Media Theorist Sandy Stone and criminal defender Mia Yamamoto add historical and legal context to the story.

THE LADY AND THE DALE is a riveting, human portrait of an imperfect trans trailblazer, an industrious businesswoman and a beloved mother whose ambition and unwavering optimism ran headlong into widespread transphobia and media bias. Her life leaves a complicated legacy. Ahead of her time, forced to operate in an unaccommodating world, Liz Carmichael stands as a heroic reminder of the prejudices facing the trans community and as a symbol of untrammeled enterprise and survival.

THE LADY AND THE DALE is directed by Nick Cammilleri and Zackary Drucker; executive producers, Mark Duplass, Jay Duplass, Mel Eslyn, Allen Bain, Andre Gaines, Nick Cammilleri, Alana Carithers, Zackary Drucker; producer, Madison Passarelli. For HBO: senior producer, Tina Nguyen; executive producers, Nancy Abraham and Lisa Heller.

FOZWutV0jwU

I never understood why the saga of Elizabeth Carmichael and the Dale wasn't made into a movie or mini-series before... farce/comedy/thriller/drama/satire/LGBT themes...it has it all!

This could be very good. However, I am only interested in the car itself. The politics being thrown into it with the LBGT theme is unnecessary, especially if they frame it that Carmichael was discriminated against because of this. I understand this is part of who Liz Carmichael was, but to paint this solely as discrimination is being disingenuous at best and trying to push a narrative instead of telling the story. Liz Carmichael/Jerry Dean Michael was a crook and swindler. To paint him/her as some kind of hero is missing the point completely. Yes, Carmichael was arrested before the Dale could hit the streets. There was no viable car available. If I recall (it's been some time since I watched the segment), the investigator said it had been a couple years and there was almost no progress made on the car (it was basically an idea only that included a non-working model using wood and plexiglass).

I do look forward to eventually watching this. The story of the Dale itself is fascinating in the same way most of these con/fraud stories are interesting (such as Eddie Antar, Richard Relf, Wayne Bray and Greg Marino, JD Method, etc).

This could be very good. However, I am only interested in the car itself. The politics being thrown into it with the LBGT theme is unnecessary, especially if they frame it that Carmichael was discriminated against because of this. I understand this is part of who Liz Carmichael was, but to paint this solely as discrimination is being disingenuous at best and trying to push a narrative instead of telling the story. Liz Carmichael/Jerry Dean Michael was a crook and swindler. To paint him/her as some kind of hero is missing the point completely. Yes, Carmichael was arrested before the Dale could hit the streets. There was no viable car available. If I recall (it's been some time since I watched the segment), the investigator said it had been a couple years and there was almost no progress made on the car (it was basically an idea only that included a non-working model using wood and plexiglass).

I do look forward to eventually watching this. The story of the Dale itself is fascinating in the same way most of these con/fraud stories are interesting (such as Eddie Antar, Richard Relf, Wayne Bray and Greg Marino, JD Method, etc).

Not sure you can have one without the other. I mean, you can't talk about the fraud of Liz Carmichael without bringing in the fact that.. Well.. She had a penis. At least at one point. And that she was really such a non-passable trans that fooled many people.

Some folks.. I'd have to say myself included (And yes, you can call me whatever you want, but you have to add 'honest' in there) almost consider THAT a fraud. Look, I'm at least mildly evolved on this. I don't understand it, but I also don't have a problem with people living their life how they want. And I've passed the age where I think I might date someone and get a surprise. So, if someone wants to live their life as a woman.. Well, they aren't hurting anyone.. They should be able to do what makes them happy.

But.. I will certainly say that the more fascinating part of this is the car. As I've mentioned before, I'm still confused as to how actually viable this car was. I think not at all, but the fact that the engineers STILL think it was.. Really confuses and/or fascinates me. The crossdressing/trans part of it can't be left out, but.. It's certainly not a key factor in anything.

Given the gas shortages of the 1970's, its not surprising Liz was able to con a lot of people into believing in this thing. They were desperate for fuel efficient vehicles. She took advantage of the time.

Given the gas shortages of the 1970's, its not surprising Liz was able to con a lot of people into believing in this thing. They were desperate for fuel efficient vehicles. She took advantage of the time.

I watched a good YouTube documentary on this last night. lemme find it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms9oQSPVEUE

Seems pretty thorough. There's some stuff in there I didn't know and it cleared a few things up for me.

So, apparently Dale Clifft built the only working prototype of the Dale. And.. While he believed in the vehicle, Carmichael basically.. "Went rogue" with the 70mpg and the 30mph crash with no damage.

It seems Clifft had an idea that he truly believed in, but that was NOT the idea being presented by Liz.

There was a murder in the 20th century offices between two ex cons that were in the same prison prior to working at the company.

That's a long watch, but it's pretty easy as well.. and seems to be very thorough. I'd recommend it. A little dry, but there's a bit of wit in there as well.

As to your point.. Yeah, no question. Liz was in the right place at the right time with the right scam to hook people. I think that answers the biggest part of the "How the hell did she pull this off" question.

Oh, also some good info about Car and Driver and their role in exposing the scam.. And that Liz apparently tried to have the writer murdered!

I have to say, I'm loving the series so far. We learn so much information about Liz's life prior to the DALE.

I have to say, I'm loving the series so far. We learn so much information about Liz's life prior to the DALE.

Same, really fascinating. Having only watched the UM segment I was surprised to find out Liz's pre-transition wife was always in the picture and was working at 20th Century Motors as her secretary. Getting to hear from Liz's daughter extensively was also really interesting. There being a murder on prem, mafia types around, people in the UM who appeared ride or die not actually being so.


Well done so far, I only wish I'd not discovered it until it was over cause now I have to wait 2 weeks for the rest. :lol:

Same, really fascinating. Having only watched the UM segment I was surprised to find out Liz's pre-transition wife was always in the picture and was working at 20th Century Motors as her secretary. Getting to hear from Liz's daughter extensively was also really interesting. There being a murder on prem, mafia types around, people in the UM who appeared ride or die not actually being so.


Well done so far, I only wish I'd not discovered it until it was over cause now I have to wait 2 weeks for the rest. :lol:

I find it extremely fascinating that Jerry's wife stuck around with him during his transition and even played along with it when she founded 20th Century. She sounds very cold and distant according to her daughter.

Maybe I'm a bit naiive here, but I always figured Jerry dove into cross-dressing deliberately, as a sort of elaborate disguise. As "Liz" he founds 20th Century Motors, brings in some money via his fraud scheme (The 'DALE'), then disgards the disguise and goes back to being Jerry again - keeping the money and sending the authorities off on a wild goose chase (looking for someone who never existed).

She was trans and taking veterinary hormones to assist in her transition.

That car looks way too small to fit even one person in it.

Maybe I'm a bit naiive here, but I always figured Jerry dove into cross-dressing deliberately, as a sort of elaborate disguise. As "Liz" he founds 20th Century Motors, brings in some money via his fraud scheme (The 'DALE'), then disgards the disguise and goes back to being Jerry again - keeping the money and sending the authorities off on a wild goose chase (looking for someone who never existed).

Think that's what everyone thought. but.. Someone doing that doesn't continue living as a woman when they go on the lam.

I thought this was about Dale Kerstetter.

Just finished the series and it truly was terrific. They really portray Liz as an eccentric mind who just happened to fall into crime (more than once ;) ) I loved the last episode exploring her later life, where she was involved in more shady dealings (hiring illegal citizens, being a publicity story once again).

Highly recommended!

I saw episode one the other day of The Lady and The Dale. I immediately thought about this forum.