I kind of got the idea to make this thread after reading what some people were saying in the “Unpopular opinion” thread. A lot of people shared this particular viewpoint.

I’m not talking about people who you thought were outright lying because they were guilty of a crime (i.e; Stephen Marfeo, Judy Groezinger, etc.). I’m referring to family members or friends who had no hand in what happened to their loved one but who you felt may have been exaggerating, in denial, or just plain mistaken. It is not an attack on these people.

Many times, we tend to automatically err on the side of a victim’s grieving relatives. This is completely understandable as these people have often suffered severe emotional trauma from losing their loved one. But as people in the other thread point out, we tend to go overboard sometimes and take their word as gospel even if it clearly doesn’t make sense. A perfect example of this, although not featured on UM, is Johnny Gosch’s mother Noreen who continues to insist that her son visited her in the middle of the night 15 years after he vanished. She went to the FBI who understandably could do nothing since they only had her word that this even happened at all. But on many true crime boards, I’ve seen people try to politely challenge the veracity of Noreen’s claims and conspiracy theories only to immediately get called insensitive and disrespectful because “a mother knows her own son!” and “Noreen has done so much for missing children! How dare you question her!”. Yes, Noreen has been instrumental in helping get law enforcement to take missing kids more seriously. That doesn’t make her above reproach and exempt from any type of critique. Everyone seems afraid of being seen as “that person” who “attacked” a grieving mother.

Anyway, with that out of the way (sorry, that was longer than I anticipated), here are some of my choices.

* I’m not convinced that the alleged threatening encounter Norman Ladner’s mother had in the coroner’s office happened the way she claimed, or even at all. Her husband never mentions having seen this encounter take place and if he was right beside her when the man called her to the side as the re-enactment shows, he would have. No one from the coroner’s office is interviewed to confirm or deny this incident and Stack doesn’t give his usual “they declined our request for an interview” disclaimer. The encounter is mentioned once and essentially forgotten for the rest of the segment. And I agree with the officer interviewed when he said that he believed that had the cause of death never been changed from accident to suicide, the parents would never be pursuing this as a murder. Mrs. Ladner basically says as much earlier in the segment.

* We only really have Charlie Sigmin’s mother and friend’s (hardly unbiased) word that Ann worshipped the devil and practiced Satanic rituals. And it’s based on what they say Charlie told them when he was alive, essentially making it hearsay. This was also in a small Bible Belt town at the height of Satanic Panic. I think it’s quite possible that Ann may have been into something such as Wicca or some type of new age stuff and God-fearing Charlie (who I always kind of felt had a darker side to him that the segment left out) immediately thought that since it clearly wasn’t Christian, it had to be of the devil. And the part about Ann sitting in the shed “half-naked” surrounded by candles with Satanic imagery on the wall is so cliche it hurts.

* Nearly all of the information about Tammy Leppert’s behavior and mental state come from her mother and Wing. The detective is interviewed very briefly on the NBC version, but on the Lifetime edit, his small portion is cut completely. Other than a brief mention of Tammy being given psychiatric tests and being deemed sane, is there any other person beside her family who actually saw her paranoid about eating or breaking out the bay window? I just feel like there’s something missing here.

I’m sure there are more than this, but that’s all I can think of right now.

I kind of got the idea to make this thread after reading what some people were saying in the “Unpopular opinion” thread. A lot of people shared this particular viewpoint.

I’m not talking to people who you thought were outright lying because they were guilty of a crime (i.e; Stephen Marfeo, Judy Groezinger, etc.). I’m referring to family members or friends who had no hand in what happened to their loved one but who you felt may have been exaggerating, in denial, or just plain mistaken. It is not an attack on these people.

Many times, we tend to automatically err on the side of a victim’s grieving relatives. This is completely understandable as these people have often suffered severe emotional trauma from losing their loved one. But as people in the other thread point out, we tend to go overboard sometimes and take their word as gospel even if it clearly doesn’t make sense. A perfect example of this, although not featured on UM, is Johnny Gosch’s mother Noreen who continues to insist that her son visited her in the middle of the night 15 years after he vanished. She went to the FBI who understandably could do nothing since they only had her word that this even happened at all. But on many true crime boards, I’ve seen people try to politely challenge the veracity of Noreen’s claims and conspiracy theories only to immediate get called insensitive and disrespectful because “a mother knows her own son!” and “Noreen has done so much for missing children! How dare you question her!”. Yes, Noreen has been instrumental in helping get law enforcement to take missing kids more seriously. That doesn’t make her above reproach and exempt from any type of critique. Everyone seems afraid of being seen as “that person” who “attacked” a grieving mother.

Anyway, with that out of the way (sorry, that was longer than I anticipated), here are some of my choices.

* I’m not convinced that the alleged threatening encounter Norman Ladner’s mother had in the coroner’s office happened the way she claimed, or even at all. Her husband never mentions having seen this encounter take place and if he was right beside her when the man called her to the side as the re-enactment shows, he would have. No one from the coroner’s office is interviewed to confirm or deny this incident and Stack doesn’t give his usual “they declined our request for an interview” disclaimer. The encounter is mentioned once and essentially forgotten for the rest of the segment. And I agree with the officer interviewed when he said that he believed that had the cause of death never been changed from accident to suicide, the parents would never be pursuing this as a murder. Mrs. Ladner basically says as much earlier in the segment.

* We only really have Charlie Sigmin’s mother and friend’s (hardly unbiased) word that Ann worshipped the devil and practiced Satanic rituals. And it’s based on what they say Charlie told them when he was alive, essentially making it hearsay. This was also in a small Bible Belt town at the height of Satanic Panic. I think it’s quite possible that Ann may have been into something such as Wicca or some type of new age stuff and God-fearing Charlie (who I always kind of felt had a darker side to him that the segment left out) immediately thought that since it clearly wasn’t Christian, it had to be of the devil. And the part about Ann sitting in the shed “half-naked” surrounded by candles with Satanic imagery on the wall is so cliche it hurts.

* Nearly all of the information about Tammy Leppert’s behavior and mental state come from her mother and Wing. The detective is interviewed very briefly on the NBC version, but on the Lifetime edit, his small portion is cut completely. Other than a brief mention of Tammy being given psychiatric tests and being deemed sane, is there any other person beside her family who actually saw her paranoid about eating or breaking out the bay window? I just feel like there’s something missing here.

I’m sure there are more than this, but that’s all I can think of right now.

Good thread! That was the first one I thought of was Norman Ladners mom at the coroner's office.
I also am skeptical of Tony Lombardi's mother saying she saw the light was on then it was off in Tony's room. I think she's either mistaken or just saying that to help get a murder investigation.

Good thread! That was the first one I thought of was Norman Ladners mom at the coroner's office.
I also am skeptical of Tony Lombardi's mother saying she saw the light was on then it was off in Tony's room. I think she's either mistaken or just saying that to help get a murder investigation.

Yes, I meant to put Cheryl Lombardi in there as well. The more I think about it, the less her theory about the killer still being in the house make sense. I also always thought it was very telling that Tony’s was possibly the only “suicide vs. murder” case ever featured where the family didn’t have a hired expert come on and explain why it was a murder. It’s all from the parents’ point of view and they’re neither trained investigators nor unbiased.

* Nearly all of the information about Tammy Leppert’s behavior and mental state come from her mother and Wing. The detective is interviewed very briefly on the NBC version, but on the Lifetime edit, his small portion is cut completely. Other than a brief mention of Tammy being given psychiatric tests and being deemed sane, is there any other person beside her family who actually saw her paranoid about eating or breaking out the bay window? I just feel like there’s something missing here.

Directors, actors and an entire camera crew witnessed her scream and breakdown as the chainsaw scene in 'Scarface' was being filmed. She was escorted to a trailer and consoled by a family friend, Walter Libowitz, at which point she still had not calmed down, saying, "He's going to kill me."

The window incident was what FINALLY convinced Tammy's mother to get her psychiatric tests.

Tammy's mother once mentioned in a newspaper article that it's impossible to tell Tammy's entire story in just a 12 minute segment. So if you feel there's something missing, that's natural. But I don't see any reason not to believe Linda, Wing or his parents.

Amy Bradley's family seemed in complete denial of what was likely the obvious answer (her accidently falling overboard). I have investigated this case in depth and still cannot come to any other conclusion. I agree with the OP in that I have tried to discuss this case and have been called "disrespectful" for suggesting that she might have done something foolish that led to her accidental death. :confused:

Another that pops up a lot is "XYZ would NEVER commit suicide! (S)he is so happy!" I don't know why so many are willing to just accept this as evidence of murder. In my experience, almost all comedians are very depressed and if someone is "happy", especially when it is relatively sudden that's a gigantic red flag for a suicide. It's almost like we are horrible people for suggesting that as complete strangers, we dare make character judgements when their family knows them best. One of my friends had her father kill himself and another former coworker had a husband do the same (who even had a 2 year old son) and in neither case was there ANY indication something was wrong.

Curt Borton's sister saying she saw him at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, but in spite of searching for Curt for years, she refused to approach him because she feared for the safety of her daughters. This story just never made any sense to me.

I find it hard to believe that multiple police officers, jailers, guards, etc. would have recognized the extremely common last name of Jones, and somehow all conspire to do harm to a young man busted for driving a stolen vehicle because they knew that his mother was the president of a local chapter of the NAACP and that they were raging racists. Not only that, but Andre Jones's stepfather was a minister in a hate group, so I take everything he said with a grain of salt in that segment.

Amy Bradley's family seemed in complete denial of what was likely the obvious answer (her accidently falling overboard). I have investigated this case in depth and still cannot come to any other conclusion. I agree with the OP in that I have tried to discuss this case and have been called "disrespectful" for suggesting that she might have done something foolish that led to her accidental death. :confused:

Another that pops up a lot is "XYZ would NEVER commit suicide! (S)he is so happy!" I don't know why so many are willing to just accept this as evidence of murder. In my experience, almost all comedians are very depressed and if someone is "happy", especially when it is relatively sudden that's a gigantic red flag for a suicide. It's almost like we are horrible people for suggesting that as complete strangers, we dare make character judgements when their family knows them best. One of my friends had her father kill himself and another former coworker had a husband do the same (who even had a 2 year old son) and in neither case was there ANY indication something was wrong.

Completely agree with both points.

I feel bad for Amy Bradley’s family, but when you use logic instead of emotion to analyze her case it seems like a 100% certainty that she fell overboard and that no foul play was involved. Her father is so delusional in that regard that he refused to allow that scenario to even be mentioned in the Disappeared episode about her. That’s pretty absurd that they weren’t even permitted to explore the most likely outcome.

As far as friends/relatives of potential suicide victims are concerned, I’ll just say this: Nobody is capable of being inside someone else’s head. Depression is a hell of a thing and some people are extremely good at hiding it. You never know.

Pretty much all of the military suicide segments. I think we tend to forget that some people enter the service with emotional problems to begin with. You don't necessarily need to have a history of diagnosed depression to become suicidal either.

The fish farmer.

Craig Williamson.

Just sounds like a complete BS story. I think he found Christine clingy or something and he wanted out, so he just disappeared. The problem was.. She was fairly ferocious in searching for him.

Christine came across very well on the episode, but I always got this vibe of it would be exhausting to live with her.. Could be wrong.. Just.. that's the feel I got.

The fish farmer.

Craig Williamson.

Just sounds like a complete BS story. I think he found Christine clingy or something and he wanted out, so he just disappeared. The problem was.. She was fairly ferocious in searching for him.

Christine came across very well on the episode, but I always got this vibe of it would be exhausting to live with her.. Could be wrong.. Just.. that's the feel I got.

He thought he could get away!

He thought he could get away!

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying in all seriousness.

Now, it's just a guess of why he wanted to get away.. But they had only known each other a month before they got married.. I'd love to know a followup on him.. Like where he is.. He'd be about 76 now, presuming he's still alive.

I've pulled some newspaper articles from the time they were married, they were interviewed in the Green Bay newspaper.. And when I say "They".. It was her. not a single word in any of the articles from him. He was mentioned, but not one quote from him in any of them.

So.. Yeah.. I think he realized he made a mistake in getting married and came up with this 'great idea'.. And got caught a bit by surprise when she was so tenacious about finding him.

Long story short.. I think she loved him MUCH more than he loved her.

The story about the little african american baby that was stolen in the 50s by two teenagers. Too many random events had to happen to allow it.

Also, I don’t believe Darlie Routier’s mother’s claim that upon her daughter’s conviction, the authorities were all high-fiving each other and told her to “get the hell out of their office”. They may have asked her to leave, but I don’t think they were blatantly rude and obnoxious as she says.

Donald Kemp's mom and all that business about the phone calls from Casper, WY.

Directors, actors and an entire camera crew witnessed her scream and breakdown as the chainsaw scene in 'Scarface' was being filmed. She was escorted to a trailer and consoled by a family friend, Walter Libowitz, at which point she still had not calmed down, saying, "He's going to kill me."

The window incident was what FINALLY convinced Tammy's mother to get her psychiatric tests.

Tammy's mother once mentioned in a newspaper article that it's impossible to tell Tammy's entire story in just a 12 minute segment. So if you feel there's something missing, that's natural. But I don't see any reason not to believe Linda, Wing or his parents.

I wonder if Michelle Pfeiffer was there...

Honestly the segment about Padre Pio.

The miracles segments baffle me. Especially the one with the French woman who insists and insists that **** happened.

I don’t believe Perman Gilbert’s wife’s theory that his killer stripped him nude to delay identification or humiliate him. I think it was more than likely that he was having an affair and the other woman’s husband caught them in the act and killed him before he could get his clothes on. The family is in denial.

I have no idea if this is true, but I always felt like there may have been a history of infidelity in the Gilberts’ marriage that the show, in true UM fashion, kept hush-hush in favor of the more mysterious drug angle.

I don’t believe Perman Gilbert’s wife’s theory that his killer stripped him nude to delay identification or humiliate him. I think it was more than likely that he was having an affair and the other woman’s husband caught them in the act and killed him before he could get his clothes on. The family is in denial.

I have no idea if this is true, but I always felt like there may have been a history of infidelity in the Gilberts’ marriage that the show, in true UM fashion, kept hush-hush in favor of the more mysterious drug angle.

Agreed. I don’t see any other reason for him to be nude like he was found. I suspected possible infidelity as well based on how the cashier interviewed in the segment talked about how he always flirted with her. Just the impression I got.

I also felt that Gail Delano’s mother seemed a little over the top with some of her statements. Like how upset she got over the missing emergency $5 bill. It wouldn’t be that unheard of for someone running away from their life to take all of their cash and dump everything else, so as not to leave a trail to their whereabouts.

I don’t believe Perman Gilbert’s wife’s theory that his killer stripped him nude to delay identification or humiliate him. I think it was more than likely that he was having an affair and the other woman’s husband caught them in the act and killed him before he could get his clothes on. The family is in denial.

I have no idea if this is true, but I always felt like there may have been a history of infidelity in the Gilberts’ marriage that the show, in true UM fashion, kept hush-hush in favor of the more mysterious drug angle.

Wasn’t he buying flowers for someone? Maybe they were for the other woman? His job did involve him going to ppl’s homes so the affair thing seemed likely to me.

I also felt that Gail Delano’s mother seemed a little over the top with some of her statements. Like how upset she got over the missing emergency $5 bill. It wouldn’t be that unheard of for someone running away from their life to take all of their cash and dump everything else, so as not to leave a trail to their whereabouts.

But it IS unheard of at the time to a family member who wouldn't recognize the signs of depression. I don't see those comments as being over the top. You've already been given the shock of your life with your daughter going missing. The last thing that's going to enter your mind is that they left intentionally.

Honestly, the thing that blows my mind the most when I think of this case is how it was portrayed as a woman who was probably on the verge of becoming a senior citizen and paranoid about dying alone. One of the entries in her diary said, "Time is running out." In reality, she was only 34 years old!

But it IS unheard of at the time to a family member who wouldn't recognize the signs of depression. I don't see those comments as being over the top. You've already been given the shock of your life with your daughter going missing. The last thing that's going to enter your mind is that they left intentionally.

Honestly, the thing that blows my mind the most when I think of this case is how it was portrayed as a woman who was probably on the verge of becoming a senior citizen and paranoid about dying alone. One of the entries in her diary said, "Time is running out." In reality, she was only 34 years old!

I see your point. I guess it was just obvious to me that she was pretty miserable and just wanted to disappear. I can see that her mother probably didn’t recognize it and thought the worst, that she was abducted and possibly murdered.

And yes I agree with you on the whole “dying alone” thing. I didn’t realize how young she still was. 34 isn’t even close to getting old and dying alone!

Honestly, the thing that blows my mind the most when I think of this case is how it was portrayed as a woman who was probably on the verge of becoming a senior citizen and paranoid about dying alone. One of the entries in her diary said, "Time is running out." In reality, she was only 34 years old!

I took that entry in her diary as expressing her "baby fever", as in "time is running out for me to find a man and start a family". I am sure this would compound her already depressive state to make it even worse.

On the subject, I always chuckle when the parent (usually the mother) speaks about their son or daughter to argue "he wasn't that kind of boy (or girl)."

Like in Kurt Sova's case, for example. Yes, I am sure a 17-year old "boy" would always try to be home for 9 PM and never try drinking alcohol, like when he was a 12-yo old kid... :nonono:

I took that entry in her diary as expressing her "baby fever", as in "time is running out for me to find a man and start a family". I am sure this would compound her already depressive state to make it even worse.

She already had two teenage sons at the time of her disappearance/suicide.

On the subject, I always chuckle when the parent (usually the mother) speaks about their son or daughter to argue "he wasn't that kind of boy (or girl)."

Like in Kurt Sova's case, for example. Yes, I am sure a 17-year old "boy" would always try to be home for 9 PM and never try drinking alcohol, like when he was a 12-yo old kid... :nonono:

I think Dorothy Sova is a bad example to your otherwise accurate point. She said she never had trouble with him in school or with the police, which I'm sure was true. But she did admit that he was probably drinking at that party. She was just more concerned because the people who were at the party were not his normal group of friends.

Honestly, compared to many parents who were interviewed on UM, Dorothy came across as a realist. She felt Kurt was drinking at that party, died at the party, was already dead when he was on the cot, the party folks panicked and got rid of the body. My gut tells me that's exactly what happened.

When I was young and dumb, I believed most of the relatives when they insisted that their loved one didn’t kill themselves. Being an overly naive and trusting kid, I assumed they wouldn’t be on UM if they didn’t have a leg to stand on.

Nowadays, maybe with a few exceptions, I agree with the authorities’ rulings. I heard it’s a common problem people working in law enforcement have to deal with, relatives refusing to accept suicide as an answer. No matter how much evidence there is pointing towards a suicide (person had a history of mental illness or substance abuse, person had recently lost a job or suffered a major setback in their personal life, person had been drinking or abusing drugs the night of) the family will focus on one weird oddity, like the victim was found wearing only one sock, and ignore everything else.

The Kurt Cobain theorists really illustrates this phenomenon, in that so many seem to find the idea of a guy with a major drug problem, documented history of mental illness, a record of previous suicide attempts, whose professional/personal life was an absolute mess, committing suicide to be completely inexplicable.

And now the Cobain theorists are going to descend on this thread. Sorry...is there anything I can do as an act of penance?

When I was young and dumb, I believed most of the relatives when they insisted that their loved one didn’t kill themselves. Being an overly naive and trusting kid, I assumed they wouldn’t be on UM if they didn’t have a leg to stand on.

Nowadays, maybe with a few exceptions, I agree with the authorities’ rulings. I heard it’s a common problem people working in law enforcement have to deal with, relatives refusing to accept suicide as an answer. No matter how much evidence there is pointing towards a suicide (person had a history of mental illness or substance abuse, person had recently lost a job or suffered a major setback in their personal life, person had been drinking or abusing drugs the night of) the family will focus on one weird oddity, like the victim was found wearing only one sock, and ignore everything else.

The Kurt Cobain theorists really illustrates this phenomenon, in that so many seem to find the idea of a guy with a major drug problem, documented history of mental illness, a record of previous suicide attempts, whose professional/personal life was an absolute mess, committing suicide to be completely inexplicable.

And now the Cobain theorists are going to descend on this thread. Sorry...is there anything I can do as an act of penance?


There are a few out there that... At least raise questions. You all know how bad I am at remembering names, so.. I'll just mention the cases..

There was the one of the MP that was found shot after calling in that he had performed a traffic stop.. And the one where they interviewed the father, and the bullethole in the wall or headboard was a completely crazy angle..

I'd really love to find out which family members/friends were covering for someone. But I don't know of any who did this and it was proven later.

I think Dale Kerstetter was murdered but I would have liked to believe his family was covering for him, if only because that is a better outcome.

I do think it's highly likely Paul Pollis's mother helped him clean up the murder scene.

The Kurt Cobain theorists really illustrates this phenomenon, in that so many seem to find the idea of a guy with a major drug problem, documented history of mental illness, a record of previous suicide attempts, whose professional/personal life was an absolute mess, committing suicide to be completely inexplicable.

I agree; always have.

And that Courtney-did-it crap is mainly just rewarmed Yoko Ono hate, IMO.

I agree; always have.

And that Courtney-did-it crap is mainly just rewarmed Yoko Ono hate, IMO.

+2. I've always noticed that when someone famous/popular commits suicide, their fans are always quick to try to blame someone else and say that they wouldn't do that despite that person having a troubled history like Kurt Cobain. I guess we don't like to admit that our heroes have problems.

Obviously everything ever said by any immediate family member of JonBenét Ramsey, including several not present that night who were let in on it. It is all smoke and mirrors by people who KNOW DAMN WELL they are lying and seem to feel entitled to not only no repercussions just because the murder was unintentional, but to throwing half the state of Colorado under the bus and ruining many innocent lives, from people they knew well to at least one they only just met. The creepy thing is how well John Ramsey comes across and has from day one. Patsy was a drama queen and the housekeeper was right about her (over)doing most of the staging but that doesn't mean she necessarily did the killing, at least not alone, but as part of a coverup for Burke's involvement.

There have also been others who tried to throw people they knew under the bus for this, either because they really believed it or just to get back at someone.

Beth George’s statement that Tommy’s classmates mentioned they were going to beat him up (when she asked them if they had seen him). I just find it odd that they’d tell a mother that

Beth George’s statement that Tommy’s classmates mentioned they were going to beat him up (when she asked them if they had seen him). I just find it odd that they’d tell a mother that

I always thought that was odd too. It would have been really brazen of them to tell her not only because she was his mother, but because she was also employed by the school.

I'd really love to find out which family members/friends were covering for someone. But I don't know of any who did this and it was proven later.

I think Dale Kerstetter was murdered but I would have liked to believe his family was covering for him, if only because that is a better outcome.

I do think it's highly likely Paul Pollis's mother helped him clean up the murder scene.


Speaking of the Pollis case -- I 100% believe the story Charlotte's mom told about the kids being afraid of black trash bags because 'daddy put mommy in black trash bags" is completely false. BUT I think/she thinks that Paul did it (and he probably did) and is willing to do or say whatever it takes to get him for it.

Speaking of the Pollis case -- I 100% believe the story Charlotte's mom told about the kids being afraid of black trash bags because 'daddy put mommy in black trash bags" is completely false. BUT I think/she thinks that Paul did it (and he probably did) and is willing to do or say whatever it takes to get him for it.

Interesting. I totally believe Pollis is as guilty as they come. If you search the boards, you’ll see someone purporting to be him was here for a couple of roller coaster days... oh, the memories.

I can see what you’re saying re: the grandmother, though. I can’t say if she coached the child, but I agree with you that she wanted people to know Paul was guilty. Honestly, I can’t fault her for that.

And if I haven’t said it before, we’re glad you’re here! :wave:

Interesting. I totally believe Pollis is as guilty as they come. If you search the boards, you’ll see someone purporting to be him was here for a couple of roller coaster days... oh, the memories.

I can see what you’re saying re: the grandmother, though. I can’t say if she coached the child, but I agree with you that she wanted people to know Paul was guilty. Honestly, I can’t fault her for that.

And if I haven’t said it before, we’re glad you’re here! :wave:

Thanks - glad to be here!