Which cases bugged you the most because something about someone just gave you an off vibe about them?

Norman Ladner. Something about his mom has never set right with me, and I think this was another case of parents grasping at straws wanting to believe that there son was murdered instead of committing suicide. I still think his death was accidental.

Norman Ladner. Something about his mom has never set right with me, and I think this was another case of parents grasping at straws wanting to believe that there son was murdered instead of committing suicide. I still think his death was accidental.

I was just going to post this and you beat me to it. I feel immense sympathy for the Ladners, but I don't think this was a murder. His mother says something very telling (I'm paraphrasing):

"We were distraught, but we accepted that our son died accidentally. Then they came back and said it was suicide. Well, we knew it wasn't suicide. As a matter of fact, it wasn't an accident either."(emphasis mine)

So, if I'm understanding her correctly, the idea that Norman could have been murdered wasn't even on the table until the word "suicide" came into the mix. I think the detective at the end of the segment was on the money when he stated that if the ruling had remained accidental death, the Ladners would have continued to accept it without much question.

And I'm really starting to believe that the "threat" in the coroner's office to stop investigating never really happened. Notice how we only have Mrs. Ladner's word that it happened. Her husband was apparently there at the time. Did he not see someone pull his wife to one side to talk? Did anyone else see this exchange take place? Wouldn't someone in the coroner's office know who this person was? It just seems like an embellishment added after the fact.

Feel the same way about Anton Kline in the Crystal Spencer segment. I've always got the gut feeling that they weren't as close as he led the segment to believe.

Feel the same way about Anton Kline in the Crystal Spencer segment. I've always got the gut feeling that they weren't as close as he led the segment to believe.
that's a good point. I would not have thought of him...I agree.

EDIT: sara joe segment. It always creeps me out when I watch for many reasons, but it is strange that the guy who was searching for the boat initially ends up finding it. I know it is a coincidence, but I always find it strange to hear for the father say "i have not talked to him in the meantime"

Bonnie Haim's father. I could see him possibly being in denial about his daughter being murdered, but did anyone else get a vibe of smugness from him?

I was just going to post this and you beat me to it. I feel immense sympathy for the Ladners, but I don't think this was a murder. His mother says something very telling (I'm paraphrasing):

"We were distraught, but we accepted that our son died accidentally. Then they came back and said it was suicide. Well, we knew it wasn't suicide. As a matter of fact, it wasn't an accident either."(emphasis mine)

So, if I'm understanding her correctly, the idea that Norman could have been murdered wasn't even on the table until the word "suicide" came into the mix. I think the detective at the end of the segment was on the money when he stated that if the ruling had remained accidental death, the Ladners would have continued to accept it without much question.

And I'm really starting to believe that the "threat" in the coroner's office to stop investigating never really happened. Notice how we only have Mrs. Ladner's word that it happened. Her husband was apparently there at the time. Did he not see someone pull his wife to one side to talk? Did anyone else see this exchange take place? Wouldn't someone in the coroner's office know who this person was? It just seems like an embellishment added after the fact.

I put her in the same class as... Who's the missing kid from Des Moines.. Johnny Gosch. Ever see some of the things his mother said? She's off her rocker. I understand how she got off her rocker, and I don't particularly hold it against her.. But it's important to understand when listening to something she's said that she has, indeed, lost her mind when it comes to her son.

There's this.. Refusal to believe and/or accept what happened. Now, I don't deny that this case was pretty screwed up. Looks like some bad detective work from the police and not covering all the loose ends. But.. The person at the coroners office could have simply said "Hey, if this was drug related as you're suspecting, if you keep pushing it could cause you problems down the road".. Which is far, far different from someone saying "Stop looking into this or you're going to die"

But, these parents/family members who have basically been broken.. They hear what they choose to hear, not necessarily what was actually said.

I put her in the same class as... Who's the missing kid from Des Moines.. Johnny Gosch. Ever see some of the things his mother said? She's off her rocker. I understand how she got off her rocker, and I don't particularly hold it against her.. But it's important to understand when listening to something she's said that she has, indeed, lost her mind when it comes to her son.

There's this.. Refusal to believe and/or accept what happened. Now, I don't deny that this case was pretty screwed up. Looks like some bad detective work from the police and not covering all the loose ends. But.. The person at the coroners office could have simply said "Hey, if this was drug related as you're suspecting, if you keep pushing it could cause you problems down the road".. Which is far, far different from someone saying "Stop looking into this or you're going to die"

But, these parents/family members who have basically been broken.. They hear what they choose to hear, not necessarily what was actually said.

I never noticed the similarities between Charlette Ladner and Noreen Gosch, but you have a point. Noreen seems to have taken things MUCH farther than Charlette, IMO.

I don't know where I heard this (perhaps I imagined it; who knows), but I believe the Gosch family tried to get Johnny's case profiled on UM but were turned down. If this is true, I can't help but feel that Noreen's outlandish claims (if she was making them at the time) was what put them off.

Amy Billig. It's just a case I can't wrap my head around, even after applying Occam's Razor. It's so bizarre. I go back and forth on whether or not bikers had anything to do with it at all. Or if her mother was just unlucky and got financially exploited over and over again by these jerks. Either way, it's weird nothing ever turned up and every lead ended up being a wild goose chase.

Bonnie Haim's father. I could see him possibly being in denial about his daughter being murdered, but did anyone else get a vibe of smugness from him?

I don't know if it was as much smugness as it was....cluelessness?

I get being in denial. But when Michael's own family members (except for his parents) are convinced from the very start that Michael killed her and did away with her, something should click inside. Instead, his attitude was like, "Oh, that silly Bonnie, she'll probably be back in a week or two." I guess all people deal with denial differently. But this still felt kind of bizarre.

On a side note, I wish this trial would get going already. It's been postponed again and again and again. The judge let that killer Michael go live with his second wife in North Carolina while his trial gets delayed endlessly. I want him behind bars!!! And I'm also curious to know how his legal team plans on explaining Bonnie's remains ending up his own backyard.

Some random stranger happened across Bonnie, killed her and brought her back to her own house and buried her in the yard all the while her husband was inside the house.....because that totally happens all the time.

DB Cooper. After nearly 50 years we still don't know who he was and no credible evidence has emerged to suggest his identity. That's one that will likely never be solved unless there's a hit on the DNA. If it hasn't happened by now, it seems unlikely.

Who put the poison in Patsy Wright's NyQuil bottle?

Also, I never quite realized it before, but Dick Hansen's murder. I was reading through the thread today and realized there's no good answer to why he was killed.

Tammy Lynn Lepert - mostly because #1. To this day it remains unsolved. #2 It takes place in my current town of residence. #3 The more it seems one digs into this case, the more questions are asked rather than answered. There's a whole thread devoted to this case on here. I just can'e help but feel like through all of the friends and acquaintances I've made in the area I should know someone who knows something, yet I'm slightly afraid to ask.

Bonnie Haim's father. I could see him possibly being in denial about his daughter being murdered, but did anyone else get a vibe of smugness from him?

Bonnie's mother was interviewed on Dateline last month. She too once believed that Michael was innocent but now she does not.

Patricia Meehan

Who put the poison in Patsy Wright's NyQuil bottle?


I've said this before.. I wonder if she did it.

What sits wrong with me about this case, and I fully admit that there's a strong chance that details which would disprove my idea might just not be in the stories that i'm reading or may not have been released to the public.

But.. What catches my eye is the fact that she called her sister and mentions that she had taken cold medicine and was having a reaction to it. She apparently frequently took Nyquil to help her sleep and never had any kind of reaction to it previously, so why would she believe that it was the cause of her illness?

Horrible way to off yourself.

The other idea is that one of the people close to her paid someone else to kill her.

Who put the poison in Patsy Wright's NyQuil bottle?


This (who had access to strychnine & where did they get it?)

Also - Christopher Chichester........if he killed John Sohus, what happened with/to Linda??

This (who had access to strychnine & where did they get it?)



So many questions. Why were there two dinner plates in her room, as though she was with a lover...but then she takes medicine to help her sleep? (Would you take medicine to help you sleep if you're having an intimate dinner in your bedroom with someone?) So does that mean the dinner plates were put there to make it appear as though a boyfriend was there? But if that's true, when could the plates have been planted there - considering she took the medicine and immediately called her sister...?

Maybe if the sister and brother-in-law put the poison in the bottle and staged everything else, including the mouth-to-mouth resuscitation...but I don't know. They were so sure the brother-in-law wasn't involved because he wouldn't inject poison into his own mouth. But could he have lied about that?

The David Hurley case still deeply disturbs me.

The Tara Calico missing girl case still disturbs me a lot.

I was around her age back when she disappeared/or was abducted.

So many questions. Why were there two dinner plates in her room, as though she was with a lover...but then she takes medicine to help her sleep? (Would you take medicine to help you sleep if you're having an intimate dinner in your bedroom with someone?) So does that mean the dinner plates were put there to make it appear as though a boyfriend was there? But if that's true, when could the plates have been planted there - considering she took the medicine and immediately called her sister...?

Maybe if the sister and brother-in-law put the poison in the bottle and staged everything else, including the mouth-to-mouth resuscitation...but I don't know. They were so sure the brother-in-law wasn't involved because he wouldn't inject poison into his own mouth. But could he have lied about that?

she was known to those close to her for taking Nyquil to help her sleep. I don't find that odd. she was due to testify in court against her Ex about an arson case if I recall and he was pressuring her to lie on his behalf. she was horse cutting with some people from out of town. she was socially active at the time of her death and making plans for the future. which makes it very difficult to solve her case. you can go down a lot of rabbit holes.

Suicide is possible, but I've often been dismissive because of how uncommon strychnine poisoning is. I've heard that the content of the poison would have been difficult to get hold of which always leads me to believe that someone who worked in a rural area was involved or at least has some potential knowledge. and I feel it was a crime of passion. I also feel more than one person could have been involved. maybe the ex husband who was stalking her and or another that could have gotten the poison and reached the inside of her house without raising suspicions. One thing that is seldomly discussed is the phone call that her daughter received from a woman that made that strange comment about her. It makes me wonder if Patsy was having an affair with a married man.

The Clifford Sherwood story. I really wonder if maybe he died in a freak accident & his dad didn’t say anything

Suicide is possible, but I've often been dismissive because of how uncommon strychnine poisoning is. I've heard that the content of the poison would have been difficult to get hold off.

I remain dismissive of the suicide theory and will continue to do so, until given a whole lot of solid proof otherwise. By all accounts, strychnine poisoning is one of the most horrible, excruciating ways to go, with the victim remaining awake and aware while all this happens. Even if Patsy wanted to die, there are thousands of easier, less painful methods she could have used. Maybe if she was grossly psychotic, I could possibly see her doing it, but even then it’s a bit of a stretch.

Strychnine is an ingredient often found in rat poison, but rat poison usually contains a whole lot of other chemicals, not just strychnine. The high purity content of the strychnine used to kill Patsy, points towards it being the kind found only in a lab. Pretty much only labs are allowed to legally own this stuff. Unfortunately, there were universities in the area that used that chemical and apparently, they had disturbingly lax security.

Still, whoever did it, really had it out for her, wanted to make damn sure Patsy suffered. There were way easier means available, even if the perp wanted to make people think it was a tainted product problem.

Though I’m fairly certain the letter in the Judy Himes Case is accurate, I still remain morbidly fascinated with the anonymous phone calls that restarted the case. Who would make these calls? After all, we’re talking about a case that had long gone ice-cold and probably only a handful of people in the area even remembered the case. And this was before the Internet was ubiquitous, so it’s not likely they could have stumbled onto while browsing the web and from there, decided to make a crank call. Anyone know if the authorities were able to prove where the calls were coming from?

The blob case with the jelly what was that mysterious substance and why did so many people get violently sick

In addition to some of the cases listed here, Audrey Moate and Thomas Hotard always stuck with me. It's one of the first cases I can vividly remember from the network run (I was 11 when I first saw it).
The fact that no trace of her ever was found was a big part of the intrigue, although I don't think she lived to old age either. A lot of places on land and in water down in nthat part of the country that someone can be dumped and never found.

I remain dismissive of the suicide theory and will continue to do so, until given a whole lot of solid proof otherwise. By all accounts, strychnine poisoning is one of the most horrible, excruciating ways to go, with the victim remaining awake and aware while all this happens. Even if Patsy wanted to die, there are thousands of easier, less painful methods she could have used. Maybe if she was grossly psychotic, I could possibly see her doing it, but even then it’s a bit of a stretch.

Strychnine is an ingredient often found in rat poison, but rat poison usually contains a whole lot of other chemicals, not just strychnine. The high purity content of the strychnine used to kill Patsy, points towards it being the kind found only in a lab. Pretty much only labs are allowed to legally own this stuff. Unfortunately, there were universities in the area that used that chemical and apparently, they had disturbingly lax security.

Still, whoever did it, really had it out for her, wanted to make damn sure Patsy suffered. There were way easier means available, even if the perp wanted to make people think it was a tainted product problem.

Though I’m fairly certain the letter in the Judy Himes Case is accurate, I still remain morbidly fascinated with the anonymous phone calls that restarted the case. Who would make these calls? After all, we’re talking about a case that had long gone ice-cold and probably only a handful of people in the area even remembered the case. And this was before the Internet was ubiquitous, so it’s not likely they could have stumbled onto while browsing the web and from there, decided to make a crank call. Anyone know if the authorities were able to prove where the calls were coming from?


You'll be waiting a long time, because if they don't have any evidence now, it's unlikely there will ever be any.

But, to one of your points.. It's not impossible that she was thinking of cyanide instead of strychnine. Or was just unaware how bad the death would be.. Remember, no internet then.

My whole issue is that when she called, she mentioned the Nyquil unprompted. If you eat watermelon before you to go bed every night and then one day wake up and can't breathe.. If you call for an ambulance (I know she called family, which is odd, too.. Wouldn't you call 911?) would you say "I ate watermelon!" unprompted?

The only way that makes any sense is if you somehow think that there's a chance someone is going to kill you. Which doesn't necessarily seem like the case. Then you would have to think, and be right, that it was in the Nyquil.

Alternatively.. Another fair theory here is that the sister and brother-in-law did it.. He didn't really do CPR and they're lying about her mentioning the Nyquil in the phone call. however.. They seemed very honest, so.. Possible, but I tend to trust them. Not totally.. But enough.

I found somewhere that one of the people closely associated with this had access to strychnine.. I'll have to dig on that a bit to find that info again.

Though I’m fairly certain the letter in the Judy Himes Case is accurate, I still remain morbidly fascinated with the anonymous phone calls that restarted the case. Who would make these calls? After all, we’re talking about a case that had long gone ice-cold and probably only a handful of people in the area even remembered the case. And this was before the Internet was ubiquitous, so it’s not likely they could have stumbled onto while browsing the web and from there, decided to make a crank call. Anyone know if the authorities were able to prove where the calls were coming from?

I've often wondered about that myself. I guess it depended on how much press Judith's disappearance originally got in 1965, which had to have only been local. A Coral Gables resident in the 60's who would have personally remembered her going missing. But let's say for the sake of argument, that this former resident was 15 at the time. That would mean he/she would then decide to make crank calls about this case to the police at the age of 40. And that's kind of waaaay past the point of really getting enjoyment out of something like a crank phone call.

But then you have the, "she lives in Omaha," call not long after the chief of the Coral Gables police had given a lecture in Nebraska. Was that just a major coincidence that arose from a prank call? Was a former Coral Gables resident from 1965 sitting at that police lecture in Nebraska in 1989?

I agree, the calls and the reason behind them keep this story fascinating.

Judy Smith's case is absolutely baffling to me. She went missing while visiting Philadelphia and her remains were later found in North Carolina. I can't think of any scenario that makes sense.

Judy Smith's case is absolutely baffling to me. She went missing while visiting Philadelphia and her remains were later found in North Carolina. I can't think of any scenario that makes sense.

Oh yeah, that's a good one.

The theory is that she disappeared herself and then was murdered. But.. That still leaves PLENTY of good questions.

Several people in the Asheville area mentioned that she had told them she was visiting while her husband was at a conference.. So, it seems she certainly went there voluntarily. However.. How did she get there? If she rented a car, there'd be money missing from her account (She supposedly only had $200 on her).. If she took a bus.. That distance is more than a $30 ticket.

Did she meet someone in Philly who was driving there and said 'come along'? If so, it had to be someone she knew. She doesn't strike me as the type to hop in a car with a random stranger, either someone she met that was heading that way or via hitchiking. Plus.. She wasn't seen in Asheville with anyone else, so, that kinda strikes the idea of going there with someone, so far as going there 'together' at least.

Also.. How did she get clothes without money? This really does seem like a 'follow the money' thing.. She needed money to get to Asheville, she needed money while in Asheville.. Where did that money come from? She supposedly had about $200 on her in Philly, they found $167.. In 1997, $33 isn't getting you from Philly to Asheville, a set of hiking clothes and food.

The key is.. How did she get there? That, I believe, then leads to probable answers on both why she went and how she died.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann

Brayman Road Attacker. Just scary due to the randomness of it, that quiet road, simply heading off to work as standard routine and all of a sudden for some trunk to stop in front of you and shoot you, leave you for dead is crazy.


Also Ethel Kidd was a creepy one, just the tying to a tree like that for anyone to find is like nothing I've ever heard of. Plus the idea she may have been refridgerated prior due to the stage of decomposition, not to mention she wasn't there when investigators searched the area previously :S

At least Ethel Kidd's killer was caught, eventually and in an unlikely circumstance at that.
I'm not sure anyone has a clue of the Brayman Hollow Road attacker's identity even after this many years. He'll probably never be caught.

Mike Riemer- Was he the murderer of his wife? Was he murdered too? Did he commit suicide after murdering his wife? Was he responsible for the other two bodies found nearby or was it just a coincidence?

Kristi Krebs- Where did she go?

Su Ya Kim- Just don't understand how the security guard gave the police the plates and they still couldn't track down the killer. It was the same kind of car too iirc.

How Randall Utterback has evaded police all this time.

I have to say the Mary Morris murders. I cannot imagine how the cops do not think these are connected. Also, I can't figure out how both of these woman somehow had someone get in their car with them, drive away from work and then be brutally killed. They both scream of hit jobs......I don't know the police would not publicly say they think they are connected.

These cases continue to baffle me.

How Randall Utterback has evaded police all this time.

I'm liking your posts. to that same notion, I will add Robert fischer and William Bradford Bishop. I question whether either man is still alive, but the FBI seems to be using resources to look for both (or at one time they did). Fisher is on the FBI most wanted list.

As for cases that still perplex me:

David Stone, have no idea what he was doing. It's almost as if he was reenacting the bible and over estimated his abilities. sometimes the beast needs food and water. he had two or three opportunities to get help from the locals and refused?

Amy Bechtel: Really wish I knew what happened to her. It seems like there are more details out there to be had especially regarding a serial killer that was in that area.

Orange Sock Murders


Charles Morgan and other spin off segments.

IH 70 Killer

gloria schulze. how has she eluded capture all these years without someone in her family helping her to stay hidden? the Maher family deserve closure.

gloria schulze. how has she eluded capture all these years without someone in her family helping her to stay hidden? the Maher family deserve closure.

Good one. I wonder how they managed to pull it off.

Mike Riemer- Was he the murderer of his wife? Was he murdered too? Did he commit suicide after murdering his wife? Was he responsible for the other two bodies found nearby or was it just a coincidence?

Kristi Krebs- Where did she go?

Su Ya Kim- Just don't understand how the security guard gave the police the plates and they still couldn't track down the killer. It was the same kind of car too iirc.

Just looked up Kristi Krebs, I remember that one.. very creepy. It's similar to the Maura Murray case in that both were young girls who disappeared near woodland after a car incident. It also reminds me of Patricia Meehan. All unsolved.

Just who were those 2 kids in THAT Polaroid photo? One of the most haunting things I saw as a late 80's child.

Don Henry and Kevin Ives case, did they ever get any closer to solving this one.

Don Henry and Kevin Ives case, did they ever get any closer to solving this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Don_Henry_and_Kevin_Ives

Judging by the wiki article it doesn't appear so, especially since any potential witnesses were killed within 1-3 years of Don and Kevin's murders. All of those murders are unsolved as well.

Oh yeah, that's a good one.

The theory is that she disappeared herself and then was murdered. But.. That still leaves PLENTY of good questions.

Several people in the Asheville area mentioned that she had told them she was visiting while her husband was at a conference.. So, it seems she certainly went there voluntarily. However.. How did she get there? If she rented a car, there'd be money missing from her account (She supposedly only had $200 on her).. If she took a bus.. That distance is more than a $30 ticket.

Did she meet someone in Philly who was driving there and said 'come along'? If so, it had to be someone she knew. She doesn't strike me as the type to hop in a car with a random stranger, either someone she met that was heading that way or via hitchiking. Plus.. She wasn't seen in Asheville with anyone else, so, that kinda strikes the idea of going there with someone, so far as going there 'together' at least.

Also.. How did she get clothes without money? This really does seem like a 'follow the money' thing.. She needed money to get to Asheville, she needed money while in Asheville.. Where did that money come from? She supposedly had about $200 on her in Philly, they found $167.. In 1997, $33 isn't getting you from Philly to Asheville, a set of hiking clothes and food.

The key is.. How did she get there? That, I believe, then leads to probable answers on both why she went and how she died.

Maybe she had some cash set aside? I've always got a little stash going that my husband is clueless about. I pay the bills and make the budget. He never knows about this money unless I tell him and we spend it together.

Mary Morris Murders. I live in Houston and I remember when this happened. I think there's a lot more going on there with the second Mary. The cops seem adamant that there is no connection, but I don't believe it.

Matt Flores. I knew his family back in the day. This case is my rabbit hole. It makes zero sense.

The blob case with the jelly what was that mysterious substance and why did so many people get violently sickYes! That was a strange one.

If I remember correctly tests they ran on the blobs showed they contained an odd mixture of bacteria and chemicals that points to it being man made, but who would have produced it, and for what?

The Hugh Harlan case was weird. Him and his wife both seemed like they had a lot going on under the surface. I personally don’t think Hugh killed her, but I don’t think he really cared much for her and to him her death probably just meant it was time to move on.

They are the kind of people you want to know more about just because of their oddness.

Matt Flores. I knew his family back in the day. This case is my rabbit hole. It makes zero sense.
I recently rewatched this segment and I totally agree. My best guess (emphasis on guess) is that it is similar to a "random" sports reporter who was murdered in Ottawa about 20 years ago. Turns out the guy was angry at the media in general and killed the first person they could find (and had mental issues too).

Perhaps the killer was angry at the "warmongering" company and took his or her anger out on the first person they came across. That is the only rational explaination for the killing in my opinion as a targeted assassin would likely have their motive uncovered long ago. I think the killer just got incredibly lucky.

Mary Morris Murders. I live in Houston and I remember when this happened. I think there's a lot more going on there with the second Mary. The cops seem adamant that there is no connection, but I don't believe it.
Wouldn't common sense tell you that if two people with the same name, both being murdered at the same time they must be related. If not it would be one of history's greatest coincidences.

News reports will tell you that Matt Flores usually didn't drive to work. The company rented him an apartment and a car. His wife often drove him and kept the car. I think she happened to find some nut who got a grudge, and then they staked out the company waiting for the car, not knowing the driver was different. It's obvious from the tape that the suspect car was waiting for that particular vehicle; a similar one was stalked and then ignored when the nut realized it wasn't right.

News reports will tell you that Matt Flores usually didn't drive to work. The company rented him an apartment and a car. His wife often drove him and kept the car. I think she happened to find some nut who got a grudge, and then they staked out the company waiting for the car, not knowing the driver was different. It's obvious from the tape that the suspect car was waiting for that particular vehicle; a similar one was stalked and then ignored when the nut realized it wasn't right.

When I worked in retail they once showed us footage of shoplifters. One of the common themes was that they would "circle back" two or three times if they had even a suspicion that anybody saw them. Perhaps it was a case that the similar vehicle was the "first" target until the killer thought somebody was watching him and waited until they believed nobody was watching. Sadly, they got it right the second time and nobody saw them.

News reports will tell you that Matt Flores usually didn't drive to work. The company rented him an apartment and a car. His wife often drove him and kept the car. I think she happened to find some nut who got a grudge, and then they staked out the company waiting for the car, not knowing the driver was different. It's obvious from the tape that the suspect car was waiting for that particular vehicle; a similar one was stalked and then ignored when the nut realized it wasn't right.
So if I recall Matt just took a new job, to relocate to the Dallas area, and was only temporarily working in the bay area, hence the rental car. Was his wife even with him at that time? I wonder because I don't recall ever knowing that detail. I know RobinW has a great podcast and I believe he covered this one. I highly suggest it.

AJ Breaux. Just who were those men driving him around?

William Bradford Bishop. I just have this feeling he's still out there.

Yes, the family was with him in California, living in the apartment and driving the rental car. If you search these forums, there's a really detailed article I linked a few years ago.

AJ Breaux. Just who were those men driving him around?

William Bradford Bishop. I just have this feeling he's still out there.

To A.J. Breaux: Totally. I have wondered for years and I still haven't one clue as to what I think is most likely.

To WBB: I too am more apt to believe he's still out there, or WAS still out there before dying of natural causes. I get the impression that he may have felt he finally got to be who he was "meant to be" after ridding himself of his family, as perverse as that sounds. The case used to get compared to John List's a lot, and I think that might be pretty valid.


I submit Aileen Conway as the most perplexing case ever featured, if I had to narrow it down to a single one.

Who put the poison in Patsy Wright's NyQuil bottle?

Also, I never quite realized it before, but Dick Hansen's murder. I was reading through the thread today and realized there's no good answer to why he was killed.

I couldn't agree more Jon, regarding these cases! What always bothered me about the Wright case was the point UM made about the strychnine that was used. The segment made mention of the fact that the type of strychnine used was a powder form of the purest concentration, and that all transactions regarding this form of the toxin were regulated by the government. If that is indeed the case, it always bothered me that LE wasn't able to trace the transaction in this case.

Regarding the Hansen case, the possible motive speculated on by LE always seemed a bit thin to me personally. I was also always bothered by "Jean's" version of events. I can't point to anything specific, and I'm certainly not making any accusations, but for some reason it just felt off to me somehow.

I've also always been a bit bothered by a couple aspects of the Matt Flores case. It always struck me as highly unusual that despite the parking lot being filled with potential eyewitnesses, and being heavily monitored by surveillance cameras, no one saw anything and the crime apparently occurred in the only spot not covered by the cameras. I've also always been bothered by the "mistaken identity" theory in this case. I've always wondered...if Flores was the wrong target, than who was the right target? I guess I always hoped that LE could have given more information regarding that area of the investigation. (Though I do understand the importance of LE protecting the sanctity of their case).

One of the most puzzling cases I recall is that of George Owens, an 80-year-old African-American man living in Nashville who was supposed to retrieve his wife from the city bus terminal but wound up last seen July,1985 in rural Lobelsville, TN -eighty miles away -asking where his wife was! The clerk at the local market recalled that he seemed confused but after the clerk called the local hospital to ask if he was wife was there, Mr. Owens left the store for parts unknown. While his car was later found in a wooded area twelve miles away, despite an extensive searche , no trace of Mr. Owens has ever been found. It would seem Mr. Owens had an episode of senior dementia and got lost then died of exposure in an unknown spot but for the fact a witness claims to have seen from a distance an unidentified pickup truck having followed Mr. Owens up the dirt road then soon drive down alone so perhaps some cruel person/s did him harm due to a loathing of African-Americans, seniors and/or men. Sadly, his wife would die four years later never learning her husband's fate or whereabouts and what became of him is still a mystery!

Georgia Boyd case. Totally unsatisfying. Did she really have a kid at age 11?

Georgia Boyd case. Totally unsatisfying. Did she really have a kid at age 11?

I think it was next to impossible for her to have done that AND somehow recover her figure enough from her first four pregnancies to have earned a living as an exotic dancer. I believe that it's likely she shaved a few years off her age to her widower (as well as didn't mention the existence of her eldest two children to him).

However; whatever new info her surviving family learned about her life via the reunion with her eldest children, they've seemed to have kept it to themselves.

P.S. Believe it or not the update disclosed that her actual original given name had been Edith (!?!) but whether she legally changed it to Georgia or just considered the latter name more appealing and started using it went unmentioned along with virtually all the questions about her life raised in the original segment- apart from who her middle children's father was!

Believe it or not the update disclosed that her actual original given name had been Edith (!?!) but whether she legally changed it to Georgia or just considered the latter name more appealing and started using it went unmentioned along with virtually all the questions about her life raised in the original segment- apart from who her middle children's father was!

I almost find it amusing that UM tried to disguise that update as a Lost Love reunion in order to avoid the many intriguing questions brought up in the original segment. It leaves you hanging. It would be like writing a book or a movie that gets people on pins and needles eager to read/see the conclusion...but you leave out the ending.

Even when I first saw that segment as an 11-year old, I was completely dumbfounded. What could she have done that an entire town would refuse to give her own husband information about her?

I almost find it amusing that UM tried to disguise that update as a Lost Love reunion in order to avoid the many intriguing questions brought up in the original segment. It leaves you hanging. It would be like writing a book or a movie that gets people on pins and needles eager to read/see the conclusion...but you leave out the ending.

Even when I first saw that segment as an 11-year old, I was completely dumbfounded. What could she have done that an entire town would refuse to give her own husband information about her?

Yes! I could see the bar owner and co- dancers clamming up. But why the cops and tv station? No comment either by the apparently 2nd husband at the reunion. I have read that biker gangs have taken over strip bars down in Florida maybe Georgia too. That’s possibly why the bar people kept quiet.

I think it was next to impossible for her to have done that AND somehow recover her figure enough from her first four pregnancies to have earned a living as an exotic dancer. I believe that it's likely she shaved a few years off her age to her widower (as well as didn't mention the existence of her eldest two children to him).

However; whatever new info her surviving family learned about her life via the reunion with her eldest children, they've seemed to have kept it to themselves.

P.S. Believe it or not the update disclosed that her actual original given name had been Edith (!?!) but whether she legally changed it to Georgia or just considered the latter name more appealing and started using it went unmentioned along with virtually all the questions about her life raised in the original segment- apart from who her middle children's father was!

Yes that’s the only thing that makes sense. I just rewatched the episode the other day and I was still puzzled on the revealing of two more kids. I also found out that the second husband and her first husband were related. The first husband was the 2nd husband’s Uncle.

I recently rewatched this segment and I totally agree. My best guess (emphasis on guess) is that it is similar to a "random" sports reporter who was murdered in Ottawa about 20 years ago. Turns out the guy was angry at the media in general and killed the first person they could find (and had mental issues too).


Brian Smith. Everyone assume it was a jealous husband at first. Crazy story, only would have been crazier if it was Max.

Some of these unsolveds have to be thrill killings/nutters that defy reason and are highly resistant to investigation.

Who put the poison in Patsy Wright's NyQuil bottle?

You know, I still wonder that when I take NyQuil, and about who made that horrible phone call to her daughter saying they wanted her dead.

The Clifford Sherwood story. I really wonder if maybe he died in a freak accident & his dad didn’t say anything

Why did he and his friend both disappear, what happened to the one set of remains found, and why are they not tested against both families?

I almost find it amusing that UM tried to disguise that update as a Lost Love reunion in order to avoid the many intriguing questions brought up in the original segment. It leaves you hanging. It would be like writing a book or a movie that gets people on pins and needles eager to read/see the conclusion...but you leave out the ending.

Even when I first saw that segment as an 11-year old, I was completely dumbfounded. What could she have done that an entire town would refuse to give her own husband information about her?

Yep, that whole thing made no damn sense and you can't make this shiz up because if you tried to get away with that in a book or movie you'd end up with a terrible result!

I almost find it amusing that UM tried to disguise that update as a Lost Love reunion in order to avoid the many intriguing questions brought up in the original segment. It leaves you hanging. It would be like writing a book or a movie that gets people on pins and needles eager to read/see the conclusion...but you leave out the ending.

Even when I first saw that segment as an 11-year old, I was completely dumbfounded. What could she have done that an entire town would refuse to give her own husband information about her?



Good points! Yeah, while they attempted to make it seem as though everything was warm and fuzzy between all the reunited folks, it sure seemed as though they were going to great lengths to avoid answering ANY questions raised about Miss Boyd's earlier life.

Yes, why would not just the bar tender and fellow dancers have avoided saying anything to her widower but ALSO the cops and even the TV station refusing to air her pic more than once? What could they believe she might have done that it wouldn't have been easier for all the above (especially the authorities) to have just TOLD the widower rather than all collectively tell him to forget her? It makes no sense unless it could possibly be that they believed she might have uncovered stuff going on (and may have tried to alert bigger fish about) that they likely would have preferred 'outsiders' (like the widower) to have not ever gotten a hint about.

Yep, that whole thing made no damn sense and you can't make this shiz up because if you tried to get away with that in a book or movie you'd end up with a terrible result!

It would almost be a case of 'truth's stranger' as blatant as the Liz Carmichael case . Remember that one? This had a big,tall woman coming out of nowhere with a wife and five kids to design a car of the future and get national media coverage [in the early 1970s] and tons of serious investors then it's discovered that the car is a sham and 'Ms.' Carmichael was a crossdressing man who somehow then went underground for some twenty years despite being VERY easy to find in a crowd !.

It would almost be a case of 'truth's stranger' as blatant as the Liz Carmichael case . Remember that one? This had a big,tall woman coming out of nowhere with a wife and five kids to design a car of the future and get national media coverage [in the early 1970s] and tons of serious investors then it's discovered that the car is a sham and 'Ms.' Carmichael was a crossdressing man who somehow then went underground for some twenty years despite being VERY easy to find in a crowd !.

One of those guys said he still believed in the project and I think Liz too.

My whole issue is that when she called, she mentioned the Nyquil unprompted. If you eat watermelon before you to go bed every night and then one day wake up and can't breathe.. If you call for an ambulance (I know she called family, which is odd, too.. Wouldn't you call 911?) would you say "I ate watermelon!" unprompted?

Half of this may make sense, if the poison was very powerful and fast-acting, and she noticed problems immediately after taking the NyQuil, it stands to reason she might suspect something wrong with the NyQuil. If she called family, and not 911, and the family ended up calling 911, you're right, no sense unless the family was involved.

One of those guys said he still believed in the project and I think Liz too.

I wasn't aware Carmichael passed way back in 2004.

Half of this may make sense, if the poison was very powerful and fast-acting, and she noticed problems immediately after taking the NyQuil, it stands to reason she might suspect something wrong with the NyQuil. If she called family, and not 911, and the family ended up calling 911, you're right, no sense unless the family was involved.


I seem to recall that it was a couple of hours later that she called. Now.. I've stated before how horrible my memory is, so I can't back that up just yet..

She made the call to her sister at 3am. So.. Was she out late? Did she find she couldn't fall asleep so took the nyquil? The way I've always interpreted the story is that she often took it to help her sleep before she went to bed. So, while 3am might have been her normal bedtime, or normal for this night.. I've always assumed she took it when she went to bed. The effects start at 10-30 minutes after ingestion. So..

I still.. It just strikes me wrong that she mentioned it.

Half of this may make sense, if the poison was very powerful and fast-acting, and she noticed problems immediately after taking the NyQuil, it stands to reason she might suspect something wrong with the NyQuil. If she called family, and not 911, and the family ended up calling 911, you're right, no sense unless the family was involved.

This was further discussed in the Anthonette Cayedito thread but it should be noted that 911 was not the automatic go to decision in case of emergencies at the time. In 1987, only 50% of the country had access to 911. That very year, President Reagan was trying to urge the Americans who DID have it to start using 911 in case of emergencies. And there was a vision at the time to make it what it is today.

I think it's possible that as her symptoms were getting worse, Patsy started to panic. And instead of looking for an emergency number that might not even be memorized, she decided to call her sister instead, because that number would obviously be memorized. So her calling her sister never seemed out of the ordinary to me.

This was further discussed in the Anthonette Cayedito thread but it should be noted that 911 was not the automatic go to decision in case of emergencies at the time. In 1987, only 50% of the country had access to 911. That very year, President Reagan was trying to urge the Americans who DID have it to start using 911 in case of emergencies. And there was a vision at the time to make it what it is today.

I think it's possible that as her symptoms were getting worse, Patsy started to panic. And instead of looking for an emergency number that might not even be memorized, she decided to call her sister instead, because that number would obviously be memorized. So her calling her sister never seemed out of the ordinary to me.

I never remember that, however, I was living in the suburbs of Washington DC at the time.. So 911 was well known. Patsy was outside Dallas.. I would think it would be well known there as well, but..

Again, i'm not saying that it's factual.. Just.. Those parts of it sit strange with me. Calling the sister vs 911 and mentioning the nyquil when it was a normal part of her routine.

Is any of that definitive? Of course not. Just two things that bother me about it. can I come up with a logical reason for it to be suicide? No.

Hansen twins murder.

I think Donny did it along with some accomplices, but the motive is difficult to figure out. Insurance money is often mentioned but most people don’t want to murder their own siblings for money — including psychopaths. It seems especially unhinged.

Can’t help but wonder what went on in that family, or if UM did their usual practice of leaving some details out.

Another thing is I always got the impression that the twins were a little “slow” — not ******** but somewhat developmentally disabled. They didn’t seem like typical teen girls in the video clips and portrayal of them. Just food for thought.

Hansen twins murder.

I think Donny did it along with some accomplices, but the motive is difficult to figure out. Insurance money is often mentioned but most people don’t want to murder their own siblings for money — including psychopaths. It seems especially unhinged.

Can’t help but wonder what went on in that family, or if UM did their usual practice of leaving some details out.


I've always wondered if Donnie was resentful about what he perceived (not necessarily the reality) as favoritism on his mother's and stepfather's part towards Julie and Jill. The twins were described as nice girls while Donnie seems to have been a problem child even before the homicide/arson.

I still don't have a strong conviction about why Matt Flores was murdered - if he was targeted due to mistaken identity of the vehicle or road rage.

I may have already said it in this thread, but over the last year or two for me it is Amy Wroe Bechtel. Her disappearance is so sad and mysterious to me, especially for someone who is also into running and outdoors.

Not one of the most memorable UM segments because it came later in the show, in fact the disappeared segment is a lot more popular and referenced by most people who speak of her case. But UM does get a good account from Steve Bechtel and Todd and Amy Skinner who were all the closest to Amy at that time and I don't think they did many interviews after that. there's a great podcast out there called the frozen truth that covers her disappearance.

I've always wondered if Donnie was resentful about what he perceived (not necessarily the reality) as favoritism on his mother's and stepfather's part towards Julie and Jill. The twins were described as nice girls while Donnie seems to have been a problem child even before the homicide/arson.


Even if that’s the case, murdering your siblings is still extremely unusual. I suspect there were some dark secrets in that family.

Definitely Harvey McCloud, the cabbie in Modesto, CA that got robbed and had the fake bomb strapped to him.

This was further discussed in the Anthonette Cayedito thread but it should be noted that 911 was not the automatic go to decision in case of emergencies at the time. In 1987, only 50% of the country had access to 911. That very year, President Reagan was trying to urge the Americans who DID have it to start using 911 in case of emergencies. And there was a vision at the time to make it what it is today.

I think it's possible that as her symptoms were getting worse, Patsy started to panic. And instead of looking for an emergency number that might not even be memorized, she decided to call her sister instead, because that number would obviously be memorized. So her calling her sister never seemed out of the ordinary to me.

I think she panicked some and called the first person she could think of (not necessarily thinking about calling 911.

I think she panicked some and called the first person she could think of (not necessarily thinking about calling 911.

I agree with that as well. I was 6 years old when I started watching both UM and Rescue 911 back in 1989. 911 was engrained into our generation and even my parents back in that time. Dynoguy pointed out about 911 being a big push. I remember reading up on the resuce 911 show and it was a big premise for the narrative. Selling people on the importance of dialing 911 for emergency. Patsy was older and it may not have been automatic for her like it would be for us. I imagine that she would have had access to emergency services because Arlington was still a big town back then, just a lot smaller than it is today. I'm still mystified by Patsy's death. I do not think her sister or brother in law was involved with her murder. I think it had to have been her ex husband or someone that she was involved with and withheld that relationship from everyone.

Another case is Roxanne Jeeves. To be fair this one is solved and there are many others unsolved, like the orange sock murders that are difficult to understand and need closure. However, I still struggle with why Roxanne and Christopher were murdered and wonder if it was tied to her brother. I don't understand why they were killed. That is one segment that really bothers me and I struggle to watch it now.

The case "Perpetual Partners" (Season 2, ep 4, last case featured) has always perplexed me. There's just a lot of things I still think about since some of what happened didn't make a lot of sense.

If Ralph was known for being someone who "played by the rules" and was so "inflexible" why would he be investigating a case without telling his Commanding Officer about it? Unless he had done so previously, and was told to stop, and pursued it anyway (perhaps high profile political figures involved?). Ralph also doesn't seem to be the kind of person who would take a "business call" like that at his own house, especially if he is known for not doing things the wrong way. So why would he talk to someone about that case in his house? (you would think a payphone would be preferred on both fronts) I wonder if it was someone he knew or was close to him, since he would have trusted the person enough to call them on his home phone, and they would have been in his house to know where his phone was and where he would be standing. So was it an officer? Who else would he trust enough to call at home and have that specific of a gun?

Just a lot of weird things going on there.

Daivd Dowaliby's case always bothers me. I am torn on whether he or someone in that house had something to do with his daughter's murder. I felt he was "off" but that doesn't mean he was guilty. He was tried and convicted and in a rare scenario it was overturned. Strange how there were no other suspects. It honestly could be a JonBenet Ramsey type of thing. An accident, a cover up, etc. Sort of reminds me of what may have happened with Sabrina Aisenberg's case. But who knows.

Charlotte Pollis. Paul has always been a strange duck, but there are ways where I can understand the situation he was in. Charlotte's family seemed so nutty. And there were no issues in their marriage, no witnesses to a crime, no one saw Charlotte's body - she was 300lbs. - get taken out and put into a car? There would have been shoeprints all over the place if Paul had help with this. No children witnessing anything either? It all seems so bizarre. Charlotte calls her mother, she says she isn't feeling well and goes to bed and this is 1am or so. If Paul did something that means some sort of accident happens in the middle of the night, not leaving a ton of time. Paul is also a skinny dude. He's not carrying that body by himself. I just want to know what happened and how.

Ayleen Conway, no matter how much I delve into this case it just makes me ask even more questions.

Or even the Pam Page case. Rob always seemed guilty as can be, but even though he has died, the police didn't consider him a suspect anymore. That's weird to me.

And to be a fly on the wall in the Ashley Freeman/Lauria Bible case!

Daivd Dowaliby's case always bothers me. I am torn on whether he or someone in that house had something to do with his daughter's murder. I felt he was "off" but that doesn't mean he was guilty. He was tried and convicted and in a rare scenario it was overturned. Strange how there were no other suspects. It honestly could be a JonBenet Ramsey type of thing. An accident, a cover up, etc. Sort of reminds me of what may have happened with Sabrina Aisenberg's case. But who knows.

Charlotte Pollis. Paul has always been a strange duck, but there are ways where I can understand the situation he was in. Charlotte's family seemed so nutty. And there were no issues in their marriage, no witnesses to a crime, no one saw Charlotte's body - she was 300lbs. - get taken out and put into a car? There would have been shoeprints all over the place if Paul had help with this. No children witnessing anything either? It all seems so bizarre. Charlotte calls her mother, she says she isn't feeling well and goes to bed and this is 1am or so. If Paul did something that means some sort of accident happens in the middle of the night, not leaving a ton of time. Paul is also a skinny dude. He's not carrying that body by himself. I just want to know what happened and how.

Ayleen Conway, no matter how much I delve into this case it just makes me ask even more questions.

Or even the Pam Page case. Rob always seemed guilty as can be, but even though he has died, the police didn't consider him a suspect anymore. That's weird to me.

And to be a fly on the wall in the Ashley Freeman/Lauria Bible case!

I read recently that in the Dowalibi case there was a different suspect that passed away. I think it was a family member. David was officially exonerated according to the latest update I saw. I'm not 100% sure on how that changed from when he was released from prison and the prosecutor (or detective) featured in the segment still felt that he was responsible. I think UM did a good job in this segment of making people feel both sides of the equation. Like he could have and could not have been guilty. But if you watch closely law enforcement really went all in on the parents in spite of not having enough evidence. to the point where I think it was not professional considering they lost their daughter.

I remain dismissive of the suicide theory and will continue to do so, until given a whole lot of solid proof otherwise. By all accounts, strychnine poisoning is one of the most horrible, excruciating ways to go, with the victim remaining awake and aware while all this happens. Even if Patsy wanted to die, there are thousands of easier, less painful methods she could have used. Maybe if she was grossly psychotic, I could possibly see her doing it, but even then it’s a bit of a stretch.

Strychnine is an ingredient often found in rat poison, but rat poison usually contains a whole lot of other chemicals, not just strychnine. The high purity content of the strychnine used to kill Patsy, points towards it being the kind found only in a lab. Pretty much only labs are allowed to legally own this stuff. Unfortunately, there were universities in the area that used that chemical and apparently, they had disturbingly lax security.

Still, whoever did it, really had it out for her, wanted to make damn sure Patsy suffered. There were way easier means available, even if the perp wanted to make people think it was a tainted product problem.

Though I’m fairly certain the letter in the Judy Himes Case is accurate, I still remain morbidly fascinated with the anonymous phone calls that restarted the case. Who would make these calls? After all, we’re talking about a case that had long gone ice-cold and probably only a handful of people in the area even remembered the case. And this was before the Internet was ubiquitous, so it’s not likely they could have stumbled onto while browsing the web and from there, decided to make a crank call. Anyone know if the authorities were able to prove where the calls were coming from?

The calls in the Judy Himes case baffle me too. If she really died from an abortion, who was calling claiming she was still alive?

Angela Hammond. While I personally believe Rob Shafer had nothing to do with her abduction, there are so many questions. Why didn't UM mention she was pregnant? (I know they withheld information all the time, but still...) Was her abduction connected to the other abductions they mentioned? Where did the guy with the fish decal come from?

Adam Hecht. What really happened to him? Drugs? Foul play from Tony? Disillusioned with his Hollywood life? Why has he never been found?

Adam Hecht. What really happened to him? Drugs? Foul play from Tony? Disillusioned with his Hollywood life? Why has he never been found?

Speaking of UM withholding information, I am pretty sure I read that Adam was prone to vanishing for periods at a time. I also don't think they leaned into how disillusioned he was with life and how strong of a possibility it was that he went somewhere and killed himself.

Speaking of UM withholding information, I am pretty sure I read that Adam was prone to vanishing for periods at a time. I also don't think they leaned into how disillusioned he was with life and how strong of a possibility it was that he went somewhere and killed himself.

Hmmm. Am I misremembering, or did they also say in the segment that he sometimes just vanished for days at a time?

To this day, I still can’t figure out how Oliver Munson got abducted while driving to work. If he lived in a little town and had to drive past empty farmland, that would make an abduction easier. But not where he lived.

Could he have stopped for coffee and maybe someone approached him discreetly forced him to get in a separate car? Could he have stopped to help someone who was pretending to have car trouble and they kidnapped him?

He was driving a little two-door Pinto so a Gretchen Burford like abduction (with some nut hiding in the backseat) seems impossible.

It just doesn’t feel like a convenient time to pull off an abduction.

I read recently that in the Dowalibi case there was a different suspect that passed away. I think it was a family member. David was officially exonerated according to the latest update I saw. I'm not 100% sure on how that changed from when he was released from prison and the prosecutor (or detective) featured in the segment still felt that he was responsible. I think UM did a good job in this segment of making people feel both sides of the equation. Like he could have and could not have been guilty. But if you watch closely law enforcement really went all in on the parents in spite of not having enough evidence. to the point where I think it was not professional considering they lost their daughter.

When a child disappears in its own home with the parents sleeping and the grandmother gone out drinking for the night (or whatever) then it does lend you to believe that someone close to them had to know something like patterns and such. I can understand a family member doing this. Not saying it was a David for sure or not.

Angela Hammond. While I personally believe Rob Shafer had nothing to do with her abduction, there are so many questions. Why didn't UM mention she was pregnant? (I know they withheld information all the time, but still...) Was her abduction connected to the other abductions they mentioned? Where did the guy with the fish decal come from?

Adam Hecht. What really happened to him? Drugs? Foul play from Tony? Disillusioned with his Hollywood life? Why has he never been found?

I have seen updates on the Hammond case on Youtube and one thing that is of interest is that she may have been kidnapped based on mistaken identity. It is a truly baffling thing to realize that in all the years I knew this case that that theory actually seems like the most likely.

But I agree about her being pregnant. Whether it is the Stuart Heaton case where the victim was pregnant or whoever else, a pregnant and possibly unwanted pregnancy is often a motive for murder. I am not saying Rob Shafer did this either, I don't think he did, but a guy just about to graduate high school who knows he is going to be a father might take the sail out of his wind a bit. I wouldn't have been ready for that at 18. But there is too many coincidences for it to be him I think. His car breaking down, the phone calls that the police could trace, etc. I just don't get why she didn't drive over to his house though if she was so close. Why stop at a pay phone? That always makes me wonder.

Back in the day we thought nothing about stopping at a pay phone at any time.