I kind of get why Cloris Leachman was brought onboard after Charlotte Rae left following Season 7. The network/producers felt that they needed to keep the "status quo", of having an older/more mature woman character to look after the girls. Plus, given her sitcom background (The Mary Tyler Moore Show) and Oscar and Emmy winning pedigree, Cloris brought some credibility.

But I bring this up because did the producers have a clear idea of where to take Beverly Ann once she was no longer the "outsider" among the group? It was somewhat hard to see her as the mother figure like Mrs. Garrett because she didn't know the girls long enough to make it believable. Beverly Ann I suppose, seemed to be more like the cool if kind of ditsy aunt if that makes sense.

I don't know if it was credible but I liked Beverly Ann. In fact season 8 was a pretty good season and I liked it better than season 7.

I rarely watch the later seasons. The show had strayed so far from the original concept that it feels like an entirely different show, once Edna left.

Take care of the ever-annoying Andy, and that's about it.

I didn't mind her on the show but didn't feel she was really needed. I think Tootie graduated Eastland in season 7, so all of the girls were adults by then, and not in need of a den mother. Plus, the many Garrett-less episodes in seasons 6 and 7 proved that Blair, Jo, Nat and Tootie could carry the show on their own.

I agree that they really didn't know what to do with her character.

As useless as Beverly Ann was, she was still more useful than Pippa.

Cloris Leachman's career was fascinating in on itself. She won an Academy Award for her work (https://youtu.be/5ggTlZOq3AQ) in The Last Picture Show, yet even after her win she faithfully kept making appearances as a supporting character on both Mary Tyler Moore Show and Rhoda as well as doing her own sitcom. I'm guessing that Cloris always saw herself as more of a character actress. So it wasn't realistic for her to just go off be a leading lady in films.

You can argue that Allison Janney is the Cloris Leachman of today, in that she has at least one Oscar and many Emmys.

I didn't mind her on the show but didn't feel she was really needed. I think Tootie graduated Eastland in season 7, so all of the girls were adults by then, and not in need of a den mother. Plus, the many Garrett-less episodes in seasons 6 and 7 proved that Blair, Jo, Nat and Tootie could carry the show on their own.

You raise a good point: why would the girls need a mother figure living with them when they were all college-aged now? They all still had their own mothers, who could visit from time to time. College-aged young ladies have no need for a constant mother figure looking after them, which made the Beverly Ann character seem out of place. And the writing didn't help; BA was constantly not fitting in, feeling out of place, etc. It was weird; almost as if the writers were acknowledging this character wasn't working out.

Cloris Leachman's career was fascinating in on itself. She won an Academy Award for her work (https://youtu.be/5ggTlZOq3AQ) in The Last Picture Show, yet even after her win she faithfully kept making appearances as a supporting character on both Mary Tyler Moore Show and Rhoda as well as doing her own sitcom. I'm guessing that Cloris always saw herself as more of a character actress. So it wasn't realistic for her to just go off be a leading lady in films.

She was a talented lady, but she was shoehorned into The Facts of Life awkwardly.

I once read Charlotte Rae said she left TFOL because her contract was up, and despite the fact that she was offered a significant pay increase to stay, she felt there was no longer a reason for her character to be there. The girls were grown up, young adults, and Mrs. Garrett was just no longer needed. So, if Mrs. Garrett was needed, neither was Beverly Ann. Plus, Beverly Ann was so strange.

In season 8, Beverly Ann served a purpose in the show. She had just gotten a divorce and was searching for something in her life to have meaning. The girls were helping her with that and it tied in with the meaning of the series; helping someone during a situation is part of The Facts of Life. Season 8 Beverly Ann had a lot to do with the girls. Season 9 Beverly Ann was useless. I mentioned this in another thread. The season 8 finale should have been Beverly Ann and Andy leaving the series because they were hardly ever used in season 9. Andy was gone quite a bit and Beverly Ann only had one episode dedicated to her character. She wasn't part of the girls lives in season 9 like she was in season 8. The writers dropped the ball with her and wasted Cloris's acting abilities. After rewatching season 9, I see why fans don't care for Beverly Ann. She really wasn't needed that year. I do see why she was there season 8. Her origin started in season 7 with Mrs. Garrett helping her and concluded in season 8 with Beverly Ann adopting Andy. That should have been the end for her character in the show.

I've never fully bought the whole "Mrs. Garrett wasn't needed/the girls didn't need a mother figure anymore" arguments. Why? The Golden Girls. Those girls had Sophia. They needed her. And they were well over 50 (sorry Blanche, lol). There were even episodes about them possibly losing Sophia in their lives, and it would have been a real blow had she left.

So, yes, the girls still needed a woman from an older generation around.

I've never fully bought the whole "Mrs. Garrett wasn't needed/the girls didn't need a mother figure anymore" arguments. Why? The Golden Girls. Those girls had Sophia. They needed her. And they were well over 50 (sorry Blanche, lol). There were even episodes about them possibly losing Sophia in their lives, and it would have been a real blow had she left.

The difference is that Sophia was already in their lives. Imagine if Sophia had left, and her sister showed up one day. Would anybody be saying, "We need Sophia's sister in our lives!"? No. Replacing Sophia with a replacement sister would have been a cheap gimmick.


So, yes, the girls still needed a woman from an older generation around.

Such as their mothers? Three of whom lived just 45 minutes away, in the city? In fact, Beverly Ann got in the way of us actually seeing the girls interact with their mothers, which would have been realistic.

Instead, we got Blair's mother Monica in just two episodes; Jo's mother, Rose, in just two episodes; Natalie's mother, Evie, never appears after Edna's Edibles; Tootie's mother, Diane, never appears after Tootie graduates.

So instead of seeing the girls' mothers, the void of Edna Garrett is filled by this woman none of them had previously ever met, and who keeps talking about how she doesn't fit in.

I once read Charlotte Rae said she left TFOL because her contract was up, and despite the fact that she was offered a significant pay increase to stay, she felt there was no longer a reason for her character to be there. The girls were grown up, young adults, and Mrs. Garrett was just no longer needed. So, if Mrs. Garrett was needed, neither was Beverly Ann. Plus, Beverly Ann was so strange.

Yes, yes, and yes.

The producers should have respected Charlotte's wishes and not tried to replace Mrs. Garrett with an unnecessary houseguest.

Beverly Ann felt hastily tacked on, as if the writers were given a character they knew little about, and never would.

Here is an exercise you can do that indicates whether the writers have given a character depth or not.

1. Can you name five jobs Edna Garrett held? Can you name five jobs Beverly Ann held?

2. Can you name five of Edna Garrett's relatives? Can you name five of Beverly Ann's relatives?

3. What is Edna Garrett's favorite color? What is Beverly Ann's favorite color?


In each of the above instances, you'll likely be able to answer the question for Edna, but it's less likely you can answer for Beverly Ann.

The difference is that Sophia was already in their lives.

Only in Dorothy's. Rose and Blanche never knew her until they were over 50, and then they needed her. So the writers definitely could have written a lady of an older generation into the lives of the girls as an important part, but of course we would prefer they kept Mrs. Garrett around since she was the original.

I wish they had kept her as an integral part of the show. It's actually sad when you watch later "Facts" and realize how little they did with Mrs. Garrett. :(


Would anybody be saying, "We need Sophia's sister in our lives!"? No.

Actually, based on the episodes Angela was in, I think they would have. She was already regaling the girls with stories and offering advice.


Replacing Sophia with a replacement sister would have been a cheap gimmick.

It would have kept the formula for the show. We wouldn't want Aunt Angela instead of Sophia, but, if they had to replace Sophia with someone, they probably would have tried with Aunt Angela.

Only in Dorothy's. Rose and Blanche never knew her until they were over 50, and then they needed her. So the writers definitely could have written a lady of an older generation into the lives of the girls as an important part

On GG, they had a lady of an older generation as an important part of their lives. They didn't bring on another one to cheaply replace the existing older woman.


, but of course we would prefer they kept Mrs. Garrett around since she was the original.

I wish they had kept her as an integral part of the show. It's actually sad when you watch later "Facts" and realize how little they did with Mrs. Garrett. :(

That is true. The late 1980s was a weird time where mass media was youth-obsessed, and everyone had to be hip. Mrs. Garrett, with her warm apple strudel, was devalued by the producers. You can see it in the OOH seasons.



Actually, based on the episodes Angela was in, I think they would have. She was already regaling the girls with stories and offering advice.

Can you point me to any episode where the girls say they can't live without Angela? The girls go on to do many, many episodes without her, so even if they had, they would be lying.


It would have kept the formula for the show. We wouldn't want Aunt Angela instead of Sophia, but, if they had to replace Sophia with someone, they probably would have tried with Aunt Angela.

If they would have tried to replace Sophia with Angela, they would have failed. Just as they tried to replace Dorothy with Cheech Marin, in the spin-off. The show tanked.

You didn't respond at all to my point about the character of Beverly Ann getting in the way of the girls interacting with their actual mothers. We never see Diane Ramsey or Evie Green during the last two years on the show, and even instances of Monica Warner and Rose P are rare. We could have finally have had the girls bonding with their mothers.

On GG, they had a lady of an older generation as an important part of their lives. They didn't bring on another one to cheaply replace the existing older woman.

Right; I'm saying if Sophia had left the show.


Can you point me to any episode where the girls say they can't live without Angela? The girls go on to do many, many episodes without her, so even if they had, they would be lying.

That's not what I said. I was saying if Aunt Angela had replaced Sophia, she could have become an important fixture in their lives, and come to need her, as the potential was already established with her Sophia-esque stories and advice.


If they would have tried to replace Sophia with Angela, they would have failed.

The show could have still gone on; it wouldn't be the same, but they could have made it go on.


Just as they tried to replace Dorothy with Cheech Marin, in the spin-off. The show tanked.

Ugh, TGP...that show is a whole 'nother story, lol.


You didn't respond at all to my point about the character of Beverly Ann getting in the way of the girls interacting with their actual mothers. We never see Diane Ramsey or Evie Green during the last two years on the show, and even instances of Monica Warner and Rose P are rare. We could have finally have had the girls bonding with their mothers.

None of the mothers seemed to live that close (or at least, close enough for regular drop-in visits).

What bothers me most about the mothers is that we never got to see Diane at Eastland!

That's not what I said. I was saying if Aunt Angela had replaced Sophia, she could have become an important fixture in their lives, and come to need her, as the potential was already established with her Sophia-esque stories and advice.

I would never have accepted a Fake Sophia, and I suspect the audience wouldn't, either. After all, they didn't accept Cheech Marin replacing Dorothy.


None of the mothers seemed to live that close (or at least, close enough for regular drop-in visits).

Google Maps shows Peekskill is just 36 miles from The Bronx, where Rose lived, and just 43 miles from Manhattan, where Monica lived. They could have visited. One gets the impression that Rose was working her fingers to the bone paying for enrollment at Eastland and Langley, but Evie and Monica didn't have that excuse.


What bothers me most about the mothers is that we never got to see Diane at Eastland!

Yeah, that was weird, too, but not as weird as the absence of mothers who lived nearby.

I would never have accepted a Fake Sophia, and I suspect the audience wouldn't, either. After all, they didn't accept Cheech Marin replacing Dorothy.

Oh yeah I think the ratings would have dropped for sure, I was just speculating on if they had to replace Sophia, there was Angela as a candidate.


Google Maps shows Peekskill is just 36 miles from The Bronx, where Rose lived, and just 43 miles from Manhattan, where Monica lived.

My my, what technology can't do these days! :lol: Actually I don't fault those mothers then for not visiting more often. Rose doesn't have much extra cash at all, and that's over an hour round-trip to Eastland. And Monica was 43 minutes away? Wow...that's further away than I thought! Sure she (and Evie) could afford the drives, but who wants to do an hour and a half round trip visits that often? Yikes. Even I wouldn't do that drive that often to visit Cindy and Molly, lol.


Yeah, that was weird, too, but not as weird as the absence of mothers who lived nearby.

Well, I give them a pass because of my above thoughts. But I always do feel sorry for Tootie that she really got shafted by not having either parent on screen in the cafeteria years.

Oh yeah I think the ratings would have dropped for sure, I was just speculating on if they had to replace Sophia, there was Angela as a candidate.

No. No Angela. Sophia, just as Mrs. G., was irreplaceable.


My my, what technology can't do these days! :lol: Actually I don't fault those mothers then for not visiting more often. Rose doesn't have much extra cash at all, and that's over an hour round-trip to Eastland. And Monica was 43 minutes away? Wow...that's further away than I thought! Sure she (and Evie) could afford the drives, but who wants to do an hour and a half round trip visits that often? Yikes. Even I wouldn't do that drive that often to visit Cindy and Molly, lol.

If I had a daughter, a 35- or 45-minute drive wouldn't keep me away from her. I'd be visiting every week.

And if Cindy and Molly were just 45 minutes away, I'd visit them all the time.


Well, I give them a pass because of my above thoughts. But I always do feel sorry for Tootie that she really got shafted by not having either parent on screen in the cafeteria years.

Well, the show could have rectified this by bringing the girls' parents back into their lives a little more. But that didn't happen. Instead, Diane and Evie fell off the face of the earth, never to be seen again.

No. No Angela. Sophia, just as Mrs. G., was irreplaceable.

Well, apparently not, as she was replaced, lol (no, I get what you're saying, and of course that's true, I was just making a little joke there, lol).


If I had a daughter, a 35- or 45-minute drive wouldn't keep me away from her. I'd be visiting every week.

And if Cindy and Molly were just 45 minutes away, I'd visit them all the time.

Well, I'm glad you have the gas $ to afford that. If $ were no object, I would be there all the time even more. :p


Well, the show could have rectified this by bringing the girls' parents back into their lives a little more. But that didn't happen. Instead, Diane and Evie fell off the face of the earth, never to be seen again.

Well Evie was seen in season 6.

Well, apparently not, as she was replaced, lol (no, I get what you're saying, and of course that's true, I was just making a little joke there, lol).

Hehe! Yes, well, they did replace Mrs. G, but I don't think it went all that well. About as well as replacing Dorothy with Cheech Marin. Which shows how irreplaceable those characters were.

About as irreplaceable as Delta Burke and Jean Smart.


Well, I'm glad you have the gas $ to afford that. If $ were no object, I would be there all the time even more. :p

If it were my daughter, money would have to be no object. And money was no object for Monica, and likely Evie. So why the absenteeism? We didn't see Evie for the last three years of the show. Three years!

The writers were so busy trying to force Beverly Ann into the group that they forgot these girls already had a mother figure: their own mothers.

Hehe! Yes, well, they did replace Mrs. G, but I don't think it went all that well. About as well as replacing Dorothy with Cheech Marin. Which shows how irreplaceable those characters were.

It's interesting you keep saying "replacing Dorothy with Cheech Marin", as I've never heard any GG fans say that before; it's always just "there was no Dorothy", and like Betty says, they took away 1 of the 4 legs of that metaphorical table, and it just wasn't the same.


About as irreplaceable as Delta Burke and Jean Smart.

Yep; I loved Jan Hooks on SNL and brief The Martin Short Show, and liked her on DW, but she wasn't on the same level as JS.


If it were my daughter, money would have to be no object. And money was no object for Monica, and likely Evie. So why the absenteeism? We didn't see Evie for the last three years of the show. Three years!

Well I don't want children, so I don't consider the "my daughter" aspect, lol. But with friends (i.e., Cindy and Molly), I would need to be able to afford long drives multiple times every week.


The writers were so busy trying to force Beverly Ann into the group that they forgot these girls already had a mother figure: their own mothers.

Well, but that was kind of the point of the show, though; seeing these girls being reared by a mother-figure, while away from their mothers. But I think what you're saying is by the time season 8 rolled around, it would have been "keen" to see the girls' actual mothers be in their lives more. Which I can agree with.

It's interesting you keep saying "replacing Dorothy with Cheech Marin", as I've never heard any GG fans say that before; it's always just "there was no Dorothy", and like Betty says, they took away 1 of the 4 legs of that metaphorical table, and it just wasn't the same.

Well, in that analogy, they tried to prop up the three-legged table with Cheech Marin, but it wasn't a good fit. That leg was too short, leaving the table wobbly.


Yep; I loved Jan Hooks on SNL and brief The Martin Short Show, and liked her on DW, but she wasn't on the same level as JS.

I loved Jan hooks, too, and Julia Duffy, who was brilliant on Newhart. But they didn't have the right chemistry, and the writing for Julia's character wasn't right. she came across as mean, when they needed someone who would fit in with the existing women.


Well I don't want children, so I don't consider the "my daughter" aspect, lol. But with friends (i.e., Cindy and Molly), I would need to be able to afford long drives multiple times every week.

See? You'd make the 45-minute trek. And so would any friend or mother. The fact that the writers forgot about the girls' mothers was a big problem.


Well, but that was kind of the point of the show, though; seeing these girls being reared by a mother-figure, while away from their mothers. But I think what you're saying is by the time season 8 rolled around, it would have been "keen" to see the girls' actual mothers be in their lives more. Which I can agree with.

Thanks. That's all I'm saying. Beverly Ann got in the way of that.

i read a tv guide interview with cloris that was done a few years after fol ended where even she saidd something along the lines of that while she enjoyed working with the girls she really never understood why these grown women still needed someone to watch over them and she never really understood what she was doing there

i read a tv guide interview with cloris that was done a few years after fol ended where even she saidd something along the lines of that while she enjoyed working with the girls she really never understood why these grown women still needed someone to watch over them and she never really understood what she was doing there

It seems as though even Cloris felt like Beverly Ann wasn't very useful, either.