Many fans point to Season 6, when the locale changed from Milwaukee to Los Angeles as when the show jumped the shark. But the show was already slipping creatively leading up that point, don't you agree? It was around this time that the humor seemingly became more juvenile, with more "awwww" moments, and more dramatic episodes. Meanwhile, they brought on writers like Bob Boyett and Jeff Franklin, who perfected the family-friendly "laughter with heart" formula later used in Full House, Family Matters, etc.

Completely agreed. Season 5 wasn’t nearly as good as the seasons before it. The producers and writers changed, as you mentioned, and the show was dumbed down.

I never realized that until now lol The show finished #1 after the 78-79 season and the next season the show had lower ratings than Happy Days and Mork and Mindy and finished below 30

Must have been some big changes at the start of 79-80 season

I'd actually disagree on that point. While season 5's got some bad episodes (like the execrable Take Two, They're Small), it's also got some all time favorites and known classics, like The Diner and Murder on the Moosejaw Express).

There was no dramatic increase in "lesson learned" or dramatic episodes during the show's run. Each season had at least one semi-serious episode from season 2 on. Season 5 has "Why Did the Fireman...?" which may be the show at its most bathetic, but it also includes the wonderful character study "Testing Testing" and the wacky-but-depth-possessing "Duke of Squiggman."

What contributed to the show's ratings tumble was ABC moving the timeslot.

I don’t think L&S recovered from “Angiegate”.

I'd actually disagree on that point. While season 5's got some bad episodes (like the execrable Take Two, They're Small), it's also got some all time favorites and known classics, like The Diner and Murder on the Moosejaw Express).

There was no dramatic increase in "lesson learned" or dramatic episodes during the show's run. Each season had at least one semi-serious episode from season 2 on. Season 5 has "Why Did the Fireman...?" which may be the show at its most bathetic, but it also includes the wonderful character study "Testing Testing" and the wacky-but-depth-possessing "Duke of Squiggman."

What contributed to the show's ratings tumble was ABC moving the timeslot.

Well the shows that L&S went up against wasnt in the top 30 either so maybe it was the eps

NBC-Buck Rogers in the 20th century
CBS-Waltons

I don’t think L&S recovered from “Angiegate”.

"Angiegate?"

Also, L&S' ratings were comparable with everything around it. I'm not sure where The Waltons placed, but it's hard to ague the quality of the episodes were bad when, in hindsight, many episodes from the season are considered iconic.

Angiegate's basically shorthand for ABC's choice to put Angie in Laverne and Shirley's timeslot (8:30 PM Tuesdays) and moving L&S to Thursdays and had it anchor a night where it had no really compatible shows (they launched Benson behind it, and that was followed by Barney Miller and Soap). It's a move that killed Angie after a promising first season, took Laverne and Shirley from being the number one show in America to below the top 30 in a single season, and ruined Happy Days' ratings as well. ABC tried One in a Million and Good Time Girls in the Tuesday timeslot in the winter and moved L&S to Mondays, but that didn't work, so post-Winter Olympics they slid Laverne and Shirley back into its original timeslot and burned off Angie and Good Time Girls on Saturdays.

Also, L&S' ratings were comparable with everything around it. I'm not sure where The Waltons placed, but it's hard to ague the quality of the episodes were bad when, in hindsight, many episodes from the season are considered iconic.

Angiegate's basically shorthand for ABC's choice to put Angie in Laverne and Shirley's timeslot (8:30 PM Tuesdays) and moving L&S to Thursdays and had it anchor a night where it had no really compatible shows (they launched Benson behind it, and that was followed by Barney Miller and Soap). It's a move that killed Angie after a promising first season, took Laverne and Shirley from being the number one show in America to below the top 30 in a single season, and ruined Happy Days' ratings as well. ABC tried One in a Million and Good Time Girls in the Tuesday timeslot in the winter and moved L&S to Mondays, but that didn't work, so post-Winter Olympics they slid Laverne and Shirley back into its original timeslot and burned off Angie and Good Time Girls on Saturdays.


And by that time putting L&S in its old slot was too late, damage was done

You know I think about this from time to time. I thought the show wasn't the same when they moved to LA. I thought there apartment wasn't right and neither was there hangout, Cowboy Bill's. It just seemed everything was off when they moved to LA. I can't really put my finger on it. And as the show went on, the show declined. I'm just not really into the episodes from LA.

The only thing good about the California era was shirley's hairstyle

I realize that the show was a sitcom, and not a documentary, but everyone moving to California en masse??

And i hated the way Edna was written out by cheating on Frank and leaving him for another man. I know that Betty Garrett left the show, but they could have had her visiting a sick relative or something to explain the character's absence.

I realize that the show was a sitcom, and not a documentary, but everyone moving to California en masse??

And i hated the way Edna was written out by cheating on Frank and leaving him for another man. I know that Betty Garrett left the show, but they could have had her visiting a sick relative or something to explain the character's absence.

You are absolutely right. It felt like character assassination.

And what was just as bad was that they had her leave him via a letter, just like how Shirley said goodbye to Laverne. It was just lazy writing, recycling the same idea to explain the absence of a character.

And because this episode aired near the end of Season 8, I really wonder why this plotline was even needed: there were only six more episodes left, and they must have known by then that the show would soon be over.

"Caring for a sick relative" would have made so much more sense, considering what we knew of Edna.

The only thing good about the California era was shirley's hairstyle
And Rhonda’s body

Eh, I'll stick up for a few of the California episodes. The Dating Game is hilarious, To Tell The Truth a fine bottle episode, Sing Sing Sing pretty cute. Perfidy in Blue and The Most Important Day Ever are fun, too.

Season 8, Aside from Please Don't Feed the Buzzards, though, is execrable.

You are absolutely right. It felt like character assassination.

And what was just as bad was that they had her leave him via a letter, just like how Shirley said goodbye to Laverne. It was just lazy writing, recycling the same idea to explain the absence of a character.

And because this episode aired near the end of Season 8, I really wonder why this plotline was even needed: there were only six more episodes left, and they must have known by then that the show would soon be over.

"Caring for a sick relative" would have made so much more sense, considering what we knew of Edna.

And doing just that would leave the door open for a return visit. Maybe if she had a week off from the play or it ended, she could have made a guest appearance.

That whole final season was just wrong.

And doing just that would leave the door open for a return visit. Maybe if she had a week off from the play or it ended, she could have made a guest appearance.

That whole final season was just wrong.

Yes, I 100% agree. And even several cast members agreed, too: Penny Marshall said, years later, that she wished they had stopped at the previous season. "Laverne &" just didn't work, on so many levels.

And Rhonda’s body

I forgot about Rhonda:lol:

Eh, I'll stick up for a few of the California episodes. The Dating Game is hilarious, To Tell The Truth a fine bottle episode, Sing Sing Sing pretty cute. Perfidy in Blue and The Most Important Day Ever are fun, too.

Season 8, Aside from Please Don't Feed the Buzzards, though, is execrable.

I never could warm up to S8's Please Don't Feed the Buzzards, but I know I'm in the minority over that. I do like S8's Window on Main Street (the last hurrah before the L&S verse went irreparably pear shaped) and the Fashion Show. The latter made me smile due to the wonderful chemistry between Penny Marshall and Larry Breeder.

I agree with your S6 & & picks, and would like to add Whatever Became of Sal? (Yes, it was 40% clip show, but it showed a lot of character growth for Laverne), I do, I do (One of the best FooW bits in the Cali years), and Night at the Awards since it was Lenny & Squiggy at their comedic best.

I like the California years.

I like the California years.

I didnt like it because it ended the HD/LS crossovers

I never could warm up to S8's Please Don't Feed the Buzzards, but I know I'm in the minority over that. I do like S8's Window on Main Street (the last hurrah before the L&S verse went irreparably pear shaped) and the Fashion Show. The latter made me smile due to the wonderful chemistry between Penny Marshall and Larry Breeder.

I agree with your S6 & & picks, and would like to add Whatever Became of Sal? (Yes, it was 40% clip show, but it showed a lot of character growth for Laverne), I do, I do (One of the best FooW bits in the Cali years), and Night at the Awards since it was Lenny & Squiggy at their comedic best.

Fashion Show isn't too bad - shame about Larry Breeding.

I might include That's Entertainment and Born Too Late in there, too. Both hold up surprisingly well.

Also yeah, everything that happened with Edna was pure character assassination. Did they think we wanted plots about Frank dating?

Yes, I 100% agree. And even several cast members agreed, too: Penny Marshall said, years later, that she wished they had stopped at the previous season. "Laverne &" just didn't work, on so many levels.

Despite how bad the show was, it was doing well enough apparently that ABC offered Marshall a chance to do another season.

She declined. She'd had enough.

Yes, I 100% agree. And even several cast members agreed, too: Penny Marshall said, years later, that she wished they had stopped at the previous season. "Laverne &" just didn't work, on so many levels.

They were supposed to have stopped at the end of season 7, which is why Betty Garrett (Edna) signed on to do a traveling stage play. After she signed the deal, Penny & Cindy were convinced to come back for another season.

Looking back, they should have stopped after season 5 and never gone to California. The show worked better against the backdrop of a middle class midwestern town, IMO.

Did they think we wanted plots about Frank dating?


Ewww... Just, no. I know Garry Marshall gave Phil Foster the role of Frank due to loyalty (Garry was one of Phil's writers when he was just starting out) but the guy had zero range. More noticeably as the series progressed, he pretty much sucked the life out of every scene he was in.

The supporting cast, with he exception of Lenny and Squiggy, was weak. Frank was funny in the first season, when he would show up occasionally, grunt a few words, and then leave. But when they expanded his role, it became obvious how weak the character/actor was.

I liked the first landlady a bit better. She was off kilter and funny. Mrs. Babish wasn’t funny, but at least Betty Garrett was a solid actress. I couldn’t stand Rhonda. Or the pointless Sonny.

Rosie was a great character and a good foil for Laverne. I don’t understand why she was dropped. They could have done more with Karen (another foil for Laverne) from the Bowling for Razzberries episode. Or Lucille, Shirley’s rival for Carmine. I would have preferred to see more of them and less of Frank and Edna.

I wasn't a big fan of the move to LA after season 5, but with that said I did enjoy the season 6 episodes. There were a few season 7 episodes that I liked but there were a lot of stinkers as well. I still haven't finished watching the season 7 episodes because there are just so many clunkers in that season. I hated that they had Laverne date a married man, or had her move out and live with a guy that just wanted to shack up and not marry or commit to her, and the one where Shirley gets stuck with the bank robber all day. I didn't find it funny at all, it was boring and stupid. :rolleyes:
I don't know if I'm even going to watch the season 8 episodes after Shirley leaves. I love Laverne and Penny Marshall is awesome but the two of them together what made the show work and without Cindy Williams as Shirley, it's just not the same. :(

I wasn't a big fan of the move to LA after season 5, but with that said I did enjoy the season 6 episodes. There were a few season 7 episodes that I liked but there were a lot of stinkers as well. I still haven't finished watching the season 7 episodes because there are just so many clunkers in that season. I hated that they had Laverne date a married man, or had her move out and live with a guy that just wanted to shack up and not marry or commit to her, and the one where Shirley gets stuck with the bank robber all day. I didn't find it funny at all, it was boring and stupid. :rolleyes:
I don't know if I'm even going to watch the season 8 episodes after Shirley leaves. I love Laverne and Penny Marshall is awesome but the two of them together what made the show work and without Cindy Williams as Shirley, it's just not the same. :(

I couldn't agree more, and I can't believe they even tried to go on without Shirley.

I couldn't agree more, and I can't believe they even tried to go on without Shirley.

Penny Marshall wanted to quit but the network said they would sue her if she didn't do another season, so in order not to get sued, she did it. The only way she would have done a season 9 would have been if they moved the show to New York, but the network didn't want to spend the money to do so, so the show was canceled. :p

Penny Marshall wanted to quit but the network said they would sue her if she didn't do another season, so in order not to get sued, she did it. The only way she would have done a season 9 would have been if they moved the show to New York, but the network didn't want to spend the money to do so, so the show was canceled. :p

I never heard anything about her putting going to NY as a condition for a 9th season; as I understood it, she was done with the show and did not want it to continue.

I never heard anything about her putting going to NY as a condition for a 9th season; as I understood it, she was done with the show and did not want it to continue.

Yes, Penny Marshall mentioned it in an interview. She said that she would only do a 9th season if the show would have moved to New York. Since they didn't want to invest in that, the show was canceled. Penny Marshall was happy with that decision though because she really didn't even want to do an 8th season, which she was bullied into doing.

Yes, Penny Marshall mentioned it in an interview. She said that she would only do a 9th season if the show would have moved to New York. Since they didn't want to invest in that, the show was canceled. Penny Marshall was happy with that decision though because she really didn't even want to do an 8th season, which she was bullied into doing.

Huh. Never knew that.

I just figured that since she'd fulfilled her contractual obligations and since that final season was such a slog, she just said no.

She probably figured that the show wouldn't want to invest in a move and asked for that knowing they would turn her down. Just a guess on my part.

Penny Marshall wanted to quit but the network said they would sue her if she didn't do another season, so in order not to get sued, she did it. The only way she would have done a season 9 would have been if they moved the show to New York, but the network didn't want to spend the money to do so, so the show was canceled. :p

So, in other words, ABC Network was never willing to give Laverne & Shirley a proper sendoff. That despite L&S having brought the network millions and millions of dollars in ad revenue, especially with the big ratings during the first half of its run.

Also, even though 178 episodes over eight seasons may look like a sufficient syndication package on its own, L&S fans who wish the California episodes never existed think the series was probably undeserving an episode count like that, just like it was undeserving of an anchor slot (because its move to Thursdays in Season 5 was so ill-fated).

I like the California years.

Maybe the idea of changing the setting was rooted in the post-World War Two trend of thousands of Americans moving to California because the economy was booming there and the weather was nicer. Two friends wanting to escape Milwaukee’s cold winters for a fresh start on the West Coast was a plausible scenario. But the idea of everyone else they knew moving with them was a stretch. Of course, the entire series was filmed in LA.

I wasn't a big fan of the move to LA after season 5, but with that said I did enjoy the season 6 episodes. There were a few season 7 episodes that I liked but there were a lot of stinkers as well. I still haven't finished watching the season 7 episodes because there are just so many clunkers in that season. I hated that they had Laverne date a married man, or had her move out and live with a guy that just wanted to shack up and not marry or commit to her, and the one where Shirley gets stuck with the bank robber all day. I didn't find it funny at all, it was boring and stupid. :rolleyes:
I don't know if I'm even going to watch the season 8 episodes after Shirley leaves. I love Laverne and Penny Marshall is awesome but the two of them together what made the show work and without Cindy Williams as Shirley, it's just not the same. :(

I do not blame Cynthia for leaving though, the producers demanded her to work on her due date and she refused so she left

James Burrows wrote in his memoir (https://books.google.com/books?id=VrpBEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=James+Burrows&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCgYWMnPH8AhWNmGoFHe2lCj8Q6AF6BAgIEAI#v=onepage&q=Laverne%20and%20Shirley&f=false) that Laverne and Shirley fell apart because Penny Marshall’s brother Garry got involved in the show and other relatives were on the writing staff and production and Cindy Williams felt that she didn’t have any input. Burrows wrote that the problems seemed insurmountable so he walked away. He also wrote that it was a big mistake and should’ve stuck around and supported her.

James Burrows wrote in his memoir (https://books.google.com/books?id=VrpBEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=James+Burrows&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCgYWMnPH8AhWNmGoFHe2lCj8Q6AF6BAgIEAI#v=onepage&q=Laverne%20and%20Shirley&f=false) that Laverne and Shirley fell apart because Penny Marshall’s brother Garry got involved in the show and other relatives were on the writing staff and production and Cindy Williams felt that she didn’t have any input. Burrows wrote that the problems seemed insurmountable so he walked away. He also wrote that it was a big mistake and should’ve stuck around and supported her.

Of course Garry was involved. He was a co-creator and co-executive producer.

Both Penny and Cindy also had egos that needed to be massaged and I get why Cindy probably felt she was outnumbered by Marshalls on the set (Garry, Dad Tony and sister Ronny Hallin).

But the show was still solid when it was set in Milwaukee.

Having the show take place in LA changed everything. It lost some of that working class, mid-Western thing that it originally had and was never the same afterwards.

I am glad, however, that while L&S ended with a whimper creatively (Laverne without Shirley? I don't think so!), I'm glad Penny and Cindy reconciled in real life and were best friends til the end.

They were supposed to have stopped at the end of season 7, which is why Betty Garrett (Edna) signed on to do a traveling stage play. After she signed the deal, Penny & Cindy were convinced to come back for another season.

Looking back, they should have stopped after season 5 and never gone to California. The show worked better against the backdrop of a middle class midwestern town, IMO.

...but Betty Garrett (Edna) left after season 6. She missed the last two seasons.

...but Betty Garrett (Edna) left after season 6. She missed the last two seasons.

Admittedly, I haven't watched the show in a long time. So, did the Edna character leave Frank DeFazio in season 7 then? I always thought that seemed wrong and so downbeat that it happened that way.

They could have said she was out of town tending to her sick mother or something and had her come back for guest appearances as Betty Garrett's schedule allowed.

Then again, that whole show ended on a downbeat note and, as we all know, ran out of gas completely once Cindy Williams left the show.

Admittedly, I haven't watched the show in a long time. So, did the Edna character leave Frank DeFazio in season 7 then? I always thought that seemed wrong and so downbeat that it happened that way.

They could have said she was out of town tending to her sick mother or something and had her come back for guest appearances as Betty Garrett's schedule allowed.

Then again, that whole show ended on a downbeat note and, as we all know, ran out of gas completely once Cindy Williams left the show.

Edna wasn't officially written off until Season 8, during "Short on Time," where Frank explains that she's left him for a matador. During Season 7 she never appeared but got the "mentioned but always offscreen" treatment from characters, including Frank.

Edna wasn't officially written off until Season 8, during "Short on Time," where Frank explains that she's left him for a matador. During Season 7 she never appeared but got the "mentioned but always offscreen" treatment from characters, including Frank.

Thanks. I remembered it as being during season 8. It's too bad they didn't bring her back for occasional appearances. The only reason she left was because she was told season 6 was going to be it. Then, Penny and Cindy were enticed back for the 7th season, but Betty Garrett had signed on to do a play and she'd made a commitment to it.

You're welcome!

Yep, per Betty's interview with the television foundation, Cindy's grandmother came to her in a dream and told her to keep doing the show.

You know I think about this from time to time. I thought the show wasn't the same when they moved to LA. I thought there apartment wasn't right and neither was there hangout, Cowboy Bill's. It just seemed everything was off when they moved to LA. I can't really put my finger on it. And as the show went on, the show declined. I'm just not really into the episodes from LA.

In interviews, both Penny Marshall and Cindy Williams say they argued against the plan to relocate the show’s setting to California but Garry Marshall insisted on it. He thought after five seasons, a change of location would breathe new life into the show.

In interviews, both Penny Marshall and Cindy Williams say they argued against the plan to relocate the show’s setting to California but Garry Marshall insisted on it. He thought after five seasons, a change of location would breathe new life into the show.

IMO, it did just the opposite.

it changed the show -- not for the better -- and was the beginning of the end. Within two years, Cindy would be gone and the show just limped to the finish line creatively. Even Michael McKean didn't stay til the end, leaving somewhere during that 8th and final season. Laverne without Shirley, meet Squiggy without Lenny.

It was so bad that when ABC offered Penny one more season, she turned it down and moved on to her directing career.

I remember reading an item circa 1982-83 -- probably in the National Enquirer or one of those gossip rags -- that the show's title was going to be changed to Laverne & Friends, which would have made more sense, if you think about it.

Is it possibly that maybe, just maybe, they thought Cindy might return when she walked out and kept the show's title L&S?

In retrospect, once they knew Cindy had left for good, they should have changed the title to simply Laverne. Or, The Laverne Show.

If Penny had agreed to do a ninth season, they would had to have changed the name, because keeping the L&S name for another full season would have made no bleeping sense.

To answer the original question: Yes the show was declining in the year before moving to CA. However the year prior it was #1 so saying it declined from #1 still made it a decent show. There were some great episodes in that year before the move. However it was hit or miss. The CA years the show officially jumped the shark. There was curiosity which made the first half of the first season in CA tolerable. They did all the CA things like try out for movie parts, live in a building with a stunt man and wanna be actress, etc. But it just got plain bad. Some of the worst episodes ever in a sitcom were made during these years. I hated the "Do the Carmine" TV plot where they thought Carmine's dance was Unamerican. How about when a ghost haunts the apartment. Lenny and Squiggy fall in a tar pit. It was horrific.
I read several comments about how Edna was treated and written out. It was not her fault and not really the fault of the show. The show ended. The actress who played Edna got a Broadway job. At the last minute Cindy Williams had a dream and her mother or grandmother came to her and told her to do another season. Cindy came back to the show begging everyone to do one more season. Edna could not get out of her contract. Cindy did not even finish the season. It all was a disaster because of Cindy's dream. You can watch the actress who played Edna's interview about this on youtube.

In interviews, both Penny Marshall and Cindy Williams say they argued against the plan to relocate the show’s setting to California but Garry Marshall insisted on it. He thought after five seasons, a change of location would breathe new life into the show.

He also thought it'd be a great excuse for glamorous guest stars. Penny and Cindy wanted the girls to move to NYC and stay blue collar.

He also thought it'd be a great excuse for glamorous guest stars. Penny and Cindy wanted the girls to move to NYC and stay blue collar.

Garry Marshall was a great writer / producer, but he sometimes should have left well enough alone. NYC would have been better, but they should have just stayed in Milwaukee.

Isn't it easier to write plots about living near Hollywood, CA?

Guest stars dropping by, thrill of being in a movie, not worrying about palm trees in the background and spending the day at the beach-