Does not compute.

So you feel they should be held in the highest possible regard because they know things we don't, but you also talk about how the relative of one victim was "too lazy to get up off his fat ass" and "doesn't even realize until the next day his daughter is missing."

Did you think that perhaps he knew things you don't, and that's why he had no problem with his daughter going down the street to the store? Maybe because he knows the area? And because his daughter knew the area? And maybe because it was something she'd done a lot, on previous occasions, with no issues? As almost all of us in areas like this have done, at times at an even younger age than 16?

That being said, have you given any thought to how he felt after? Having asked his child to do something so mundane, only to have her get raped and murdered because of it? Would that not count in the holding of victims and their families in the highest regard?

Well I said "almost always".

No matter which way it is sliced, there is something wrong about a father who fails to ensure his daughter returned home safely after sending her out to run an errand at night and does not realize she is missing until many, many hours have passed. If she voluntarily went out and missed her curfew, he would have been apoplectic and phoning the police.

Well I said "almost always".

So it's ok to take a dump on someone who lost a child when we don't actually know all the facts, despite the "they may know something we don't" caveat. Gotcha.

If she voluntarily went out and missed her curfew, he would have been apoplectic and phoning the police.

Calls for speculation. You have no idea how he would've reacted. A great many cases on UM involved parents thinking "well, they were with a friend and when they didn't come home, I didn't think anything bad had happened, I figured they'd just be home in the morning." According to your very own words, "they may know something we don't."

You know what happens when someone misses curfew (if they even have one) in this area? The parent doesn't call the police. This isn't a city. The go to move of most parents is to get angry at the kid, then punish them. Now, if the kid misses curfew and isn't back the next day, and they can't get in touch with them? Yeah...the police will likely get called then. Again, as I said previously...things are different when you live in the country, in an area where crime is practically non-existent.

So it's ok to take a dump on someone who lost a child when we don't actually know all the facts, despite the "they may know something we don't" caveat. Gotcha.



Calls for speculation. You have no idea how he would've reacted. A great many cases on UM involved parents thinking "well, they were with a friend and when they didn't come home, I didn't think anything bad had happened, I figured they'd just be home in the morning." According to your very own words, "they may know something we don't."

You know what happens when someone misses curfew (if they even have one) in this area? The parent doesn't call the police. This isn't a city. The go to move of most parents is to get angry at the kid, then punish them. Now, if the kid misses curfew and isn't back the next day, and they can't get in touch with them? Yeah...the police will likely get called then. Again, as I said previously...things are different when you live in the country, in an area where crime is practically non-existent.

It's comparing apples and oranges though. He sent her out. She didn't willingly go. In the sense he sent her out, it's his parental obligation to ensure she returns home safely and he failed to do that. He's a negligent parent! It doesn't matter if she's 6 or 16.

It's comparing apples and oranges though. He sent her out. She didn't willingly go. In the sense he sent her out, it's his parental obligation to ensure she returns home safely and he failed to do that. He's a negligent parent! It doesn't matter if she's 6 or 16.

You're the one that compared it to missing curfew...not me.

Once again, as you said "they know more than we do."

I can't stress that point enough. :)

You're the one that compared it to missing curfew...not me.

Once again, as you said "they know more than we do."

I can't stress that point enough. :)

It's still a lame move on his part though. He has the benefit of a car, he makes her walk. She was doing homework, he was doing nothing. I wonder how he explained that to his friends and coworkers.

I have a feeling I'm going to hate myself later but....it was June 22nd. Summer vacation. No homework to worry about.

But even if it was a school evening, so what? It wasn't late and it was a task that would take maybe 15 minutes tops. Stop making it sound like he grabbed her from her SAT preparation and literally threw her out the front door.

Stop making it sound like he grabbed her from her SAT preparation and literally threw her out the front door.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

"GET ME MY PEPSI FREE AND KEEBLER MAGIC MIDDLES, DAUGHTER!!"

Sorry...that put a hilarious image in my head

I have a feeling I'm going to hate myself later but....it was June 22nd. Summer vacation. No homework to worry about.

But even if it was a school evening, so what? It wasn't late and it was a task that would take maybe 15 minutes tops. Stop making it sound like he grabbed her from her SAT preparation and literally threw her out the front door.

She left around 9:30 p.m. and a neighbor spotted her at 10:05, so that's at least double the timeframe you gave (the highest amount) heading more toward triple.

After 10 is late for a school night.

Where I come from, we regularly had school until mid June, however, any snow days (that were more than 2) had to be made up at the end of the school year, so it's possible she had school until late June. In any event, the Nightmare Next Door episode said she was doing schoolwork.

In any event, the Nightmare Next Door episode said she was doing schoolwork.

...because these crime shows ALWAYS get their facts right?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/03681456584cbc392357d9fe71124143/tenor.gif?itemid=5636901

You bring up so many excellent points. The most important one being that all she had to do was divorce him. She still would have gotten alimony and had access to her kids. Instead, she took all of the kids and all of the money.

Was it really worth the five years she ended up being in prison and out of her children's lives? (Although I'm kind of surprised she only got five years for theft, fraud, forgery and abduction.)
Agree 100%. Even if Jimmy was a workaholic, he gets all my sympathy. Melvine gets none. She stole the money and the kids, and had him arrested at a point in time where it seemed he was going to die soon from his health issues. That is heartless, plain and simple.

She left around 9:30 p.m. and a neighbor spotted her at 10:05, so that's at least double the timeframe you gave (the highest amount) heading more toward triple.

After 10 is late for a school night.

Where I come from, we regularly had school until mid June, however, any snow days (that were more than 2) had to be made up at the end of the school year, so it's possible she had school until late June. In any event, the Nightmare Next Door episode said she was doing schoolwork.

Ohhhhhhhh...I'm such a glutton for punishment today. But here goes anyway.

1. Mid-June is June 15th. June 22nd is 8 days from the start of July.

2. The Nightmare Next Door episode was mistaken. She was not doing homework. It was the start of summer break and she was studying to become a summer camp counselor, according to articles from the time of her disappearance. (But something tells me you'll see no difference between that and studying for final exams so I digress.)

3. It sounds as if your parents had you behind double deadbolt locked doors and wearing a bullet proof vest by 9:30 p.m. when you were 16 years old. Good for them for being wonderful parents and keeping you alive. But most of us were allowed to be out of the house at age 16 on summer evenings at 9:30. In my case, my parents gave me a curfew of 11:00 p.m. in the summer. I somehow survived that despite "horrible" parenting.

4. In your entire life, are you saying you never once laid down on a couch with the intention of relaxing and ended up falling asleep? To harp on such a thing is like yelling at a person for being human.

5. There's a common saying that parents have used for years..."Why would I need to buy a dishwasher? That's what my kids are for." That saying can also be applied to pretty much any mundane task like asking them to take out the garbage, put gas in your car or running an errand, in this case, two blocks from home. This was one of the millions of examples of what parents had done before and will continue to do until the end of time. What he requested was no different. The only difference is his request was that one in a million chance of ending in tragedy. It astounds me that you cannot let this go and you're basically acting as if he willingly intended to throw her to the wolves, so to speak. It's too easy to look back and shake your finger at someone for something they had no idea would happen, or ever expect to happen.

6. Kari's mother made it clear in the Nightmare Nextdoor episode that her disappearance destroyed her father. After a fifth straight long day of searching for her, he came home sobbing and repeated to his wife over and over that he had failed Kari. He kept that pain, misery and suffering with him until his death. I find that absolutely tragic and heartbreaking.

7. If after all that, all you can STILL obsess about is what a pathetic, lazy pos Mr. Nixon was, then I've most likely wasted my time and I'll shut up and go back to banging my head against the wall.

Well, he had so many health issues that he was on verge of actually dying. How bad and wicked of a man to expect that his wife would back him in a time where even rising from the bed might kill him. The monster. :rolleyes:

And yeah, it's "his" money. Which, by marriage, became "their" money because it was putting bread and butter on the table and jewelry on her, all thanks to his hard work.

If she wanted her rightful share of the money, all she had to do was to divorce and ask for alimony, which she would have been entitled to anyway because as a SAHM she had no independent means of income. Instead, she decided to scam him under his nose, exploiting his poor health and his vulnerability, and run away with all the money.

And let's not forget, he did state that he did not care all that much about the money. What he cared about was his children, which she stole away from him. The poor woman! Cry me a river. It's any husband's (or man's, for that matter) worst nightmare, on-par with catching red-handed his wife cheating in his bed.

I had a lot of sympathy for Jimmy Aprile, on the contrary. The guy was not perfect, but as far as we know he did not deserve a payback like this. Jimmy Aprile might have been too absorbed by his work and his business, which in itself could drive couples apart and cause a divorce, but that was so that his family - including herself - would not need anything.

The guy trusted his wife blindly because he was sure he could count on her 100%, while she was ripping him off of everything he had only to leave him with a measly 12$ in his account with his children nowhere to be found. He got had by his own wife while he was trying to stay alive, for crying out loud!

She wasn't a SAHM. She was running the business. Granted, she was doing some unethical business practices, but she spent a lot of time commuting from California to Florida. I got the impression she worked quite a bit throughout their marriage.

I got this vibe from Jimmy that he cared more about the money than the kids. He said would say "the children" or "these children" when he referred to them - it just seemed really impersonal. He was more emphatic and emotional about the money.

She left around 9:30 p.m. and a neighbor spotted her at 10:05, so that's at least double the timeframe you gave (the highest amount) heading more toward triple.

After 10 is late for a school night.

Where I come from, we regularly had school until mid June, however, any snow days (that were more than 2) had to be made up at the end of the school year, so it's possible she had school until late June. In any event, the Nightmare Next Door episode said she was doing schoolwork.

"On the night of June 22, 1987, sixteen-year-old Kari Lynn Nixon left her home to run an errand for her dad at around 9:30pm. She bought some groceries at a nearby store, and left at around 9:55pm. She exchanged greetings with a neighbor at around 10:05pm."

So she leaves at "around" 9:30 and walks to the store. She takes an unknown amount of time shopping (since we don't know when she actually arrived at the store). Maybe she's dawdling...trying to decide...do I want a bag of Funyuns...or maybe Munchos....oh s*** they have Bar Nones here! Yoink! Hmm...what do I want to drink? Ooh, Mandarin Orange Slice! Eh...it's warm. Must've just put it in the cooler. Coke it is. You know what? I don't really feel like a Bar None...maybe a Whatchamacallit? Nah. Screw it, I'll get some Munchos. Should I get something for my brothers? Nah...they've been little dorks, lately.

Maybe talks to the cashier a bit. You know...because sometimes people in small towns of 600 people...you know....kinda actually know each other? Then she leaves around 9:55.

So I don't find the timetable shocking.

As for school? School was routinely out around that time. And if it WASN'T, it definitely would've been the last week of classes, and take it from me...no teacher up here is bothering with much of anything the last week of the year. And they DEFINITELY aren't bothering with anything resembling important homework that late.

In my district, regarding snow days, we would have planned days off during the spring that, if we went over on our snow day allotment, we would end up going to school. It didn't go past the "last day," as families would have vacations planned, there would be summer school, etc. There was too much other stuff that weighed against us having to stay later into the summer. In 1998 we got hit with a massive ice storm that devastated the entire northeast (even though people outside the area only bother talking about Montreal when they talk about it). Some roads were blocked off for over a month due to fallen trees and telephone poles. We were out of school for three weeks straight. There was talk about us having to stay into summer and EVERYONE shot it down, teachers included.

Beyond that, I think dynoguy pretty much made every other point I could possibly make.

The issue with Kari Lynn Nixon's father is that he sent her out. Meaning that he gave her an order to go out, and then return with the groceries he asked for. It's not like she had carte blanche to whimsically bebop off to some friend's house for the night and her parents wouldn't have given it a second thought, he gave her a direct order to return to the house and then promptly failed to ensure that she did that.

Unless the kid is away at camp or something, it's his duty to ensure she returned home safely and he neglected to do that. Heck, there are many people who ask their adult loved ones to check in with them and panic when they don't.

It can reasonably be assumed that had Kari not returned by, say, 11:00, that he would have been out looking for her and phoning the police, getting other people out looking for her. Nope. He manages to fall asleep and stay asleep for the entire night, not even realizing until the next day his daughter is missing, by that time many crucial hours had passed.

Most parents would send their child out to the store, especially if they had a hard day at work or was drinking.

Small towns are more trusting and are usually close knit. If he asked her to go to that store at that time im sure it wasn't the first time. Sending your kid to the store for snacks isn't a big deal at all. Maybe he was tired from work, maybe he had a bit much too drink, maybe he was in pain from work, etc. She was 16, not 9. He didn't do anything wrong. Only way he would be wrong is if he set his daughter up to be kidnapped.

I read that he didn't notice immediately. Did he fall asleep when she was gone? Sounds like he was tired from work, asked her to go get some snacks and fell asleep. I don't think he had any malicious intent in asking her to get some chips. You can't blame him for that.

It sounds as if your parents had you behind double deadbolt locked doors and wearing a bullet proof vest by 9:30 p.m. when you were 16 years old. Good for them for being wonderful parents and keeping you alive.

:rofl:

Blaming the dad for her getting kidnapped and murdered is like blaming someone for going to work on 9/11 and getting killed. They had no idea. It's easy to say what he shouldve done, but he didn't know. Blaming him is pointless. If he didn't care or didn't search for her then you'd have a point, but you can't blame the man for making a mistake.

Think if you asked your kid to take the trash cans around and he was abducted while doing so and people blamed it on you? He didn't know what would happen.

L

I wonder if he blames Etan Patz's parents for letting him walk to a bus stop by himself when he was 6. Or Teresa Dahl for asking Matthew Chase to get cat food on the night he was abducted and murdered.

Blaming the dad for her getting kidnapped and murdered is like blaming someone for going to work on 9/11 and getting killed. They had no idea. It's easy to say what he shouldve done, but he didn't know. Blaming him is pointless. If he didn't care or didn't search for her then you'd have a point, but you can't blame the man for making a mistake.

Think if you asked your kid to take the trash cans around and he was abducted while doing so and people blamed it on you? He didn't know what would happen.

L

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Meaning that he gave her an order to go out

What is it with you and the "gave her an order?"

That's like the third time you've used that exact phrase. He's a father, not a company commander. He ASKED. Seriously, quit trying to act as though he forced her out of the house at gunpoint and then into the killer's car.

You realize that "they know more than we do" about the situation, right? Ever think maybe the guy's a narcoleptic? Or perhaps he'd just got done working an 18 hour shift? No. Of course not. Because in your narrative, her father was more culpable in her murder than the guy that actually killed her.

I wonder if he blames Etan Patz's parents for letting him walk to a bus stop by himself when he was 6. Or Teresa Dahl for asking Matthew Chase to get cat food on the night he was abducted and murdered.

Well, Theresa Dahl CLEARLY gave him an order, and it was to be carried out without question.

As for Etan Patz, I think it's obvious.

Most parents would send their child out to the store, especially if they had a hard day at work or was drinking.

Small towns are more trusting and are usually close knit. If he asked her to go to that store at that time im sure it wasn't the first time. Sending your kid to the store for snacks isn't a big deal at all. Maybe he was tired from work, maybe he had a bit much too drink, maybe he was in pain from work, etc. She was 16, not 9. He didn't do anything wrong. Only way he would be wrong is if he set his daughter up to be kidnapped.

I read that he didn't notice immediately. Did he fall asleep when she was gone? Sounds like he was tired from work, asked her to go get some snacks and fell asleep. I don't think he had any malicious intent in asking her to get some chips. You can't blame him for that.

Yes, he fell asleep and didn't wake up until the next morning.

Because in your narrative, her father was more culpable in her murder than the guy that actually killed her.

I don't believe that.

I don't believe that.

That's the way you're acting. With all this "he gave her an order" nonsense. He asked his 16 YEAR OLD to go to a store that was a few hundred yards away. Not a 6 year old....not three miles away. Not in a city....in a very small town.

"She didn't have carte blanche".....again.....you're acting as though he told her "you be back in five minutes or you're going to taste my fists!" I don't know what kind of family life you've experienced, but in MY experience, in a town such as this, what I basically acted out in that other post is the kind of stuff that happens. Everybody isn't in a hurry all the time. If we're in a store getting some stuff, we'll look around....maybe we're not sure of what to get. Who knows? You and I don't, because we weren't there, and "victims and victims' families know more than we do." So chill out with your constant s***ing on her father. What happened was literally a once in a million event. In 34 years up here, do you know how many abductions of children (non-parental) there have been up here? One. Kari Lynn Nixon. So stop acting as though this is a huge problem up here. Because if it was as bad as you seem to think, none of us would've made it to adulthood, myself included, because we all did this stuff. I was walking to and from a bus stop a mile from my house every day when I was eight, then waiting twenty minutes or so for the bus to arrive. Why am I still here, if this is such an epidemic?

TheCars1986 raises an interesting point, btw. Do you hold the same level of irrational animosity towards Etan Patz's parents? After all, they let a 6 year old walk to the bus stop alone IN NYC.

To me this is a non-discussion. Blame the sick bastard who raped/murdered her if you're going to blame anyone. Not the man who asked her to get some snacks. Your anger is misplaced.

While the person ultimately to blame was the murderer, I do think it is was wrong for that dad to send his daugh get out all by herself at night. What was he thinking? Hopefully at least he learned to be an actual parent to his other daughter

the person to blame was the murderer

There, I fixed it for you.

"Actual parent?"

You mean "tie her up and chain her to the radiator in the basement so she can never possibly come to any harm, either conceivable or inconceivable?"

She was 16, living in the middle of nowhere. Can we stop acting like he threw his 5 year old daughter into the middle of a crack neighborhood in a huge city and said "have at it?"

While the person ultimately to blame was the murderer, I do think it is was wrong for that dad to send his daugh get out all by herself at night. What was he thinking? Hopefully at least he learned to be an actual parent to his other daughter

What? What is wrong with you people? He's not an actual parent because he asked his 16 year old daughter to go to the store? For all you know the man busted his ass at work all day, then flashed a 20 to his daughter to pick him some snacks up and said she can keep the change.

She went so obviously it was a non issue. Also what part of "small town" don't you comprehend? Nevermind.

Why all of a sudden are we blaming parents of abducted and murdered children? With this logic, every single case that featured these children could be "blamed" on the parents. Which makes zero sense.

Why all of a sudden are we blaming parents of abducted and murdered children? With this logic, every single case that featured these children could be "blamed" on the parents. Which makes zero sense.

I can't even begin to make sense of it so I won't try.

There is no making sense of it.

Why all of a sudden are we blaming parents of abducted and murdered children? With this logic, every single case that featured these children could be "blamed" on the parents. Which makes zero sense.

Why stop at just children? Obviously Charles Holden is responsible for his mother being killed. Who lets their seventy year old mother stay alone in a house in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, where anyone could just break in and murder them? :rolleyes:

"Actual parent?"

You mean "tie her up and chain her to the radiator in the basement so she can never possibly come to any harm, either conceivable or inconceivable?"

She was 16, living in the middle of nowhere. Can we stop acting like he threw his 5 year old daughter into the middle of a crack neighborhood in a huge city and said "have at it?"

I’m kind of with everyone here. If she was six, I’d understand, but at age sixteen, she’s practically an adult. If you don’t think an average sixteen-year-old is capable of walking a few blocks in the dark in an itty-bitty town to buy some snacks, I kind of worry about what your parents were like. They sound like the kind who were so overprotective that when you turned eighteen, you were completely lacking in any ability to take care of yourself.

Me, at age sixteen, I had already been a latchkey kid since I was eleven, during which I would babysit for my brother until my parents got home from work. Since my brother was only two years younger than me, I don’t really know if that could even qualify as babysitting; babysitting to me, probably involves more than just letting him watch TV and do his homework, while being like, “Yeah, scream if you get hurt or if there’s a fire or something.”

We also regularly walked a couple of blocks in the morning and afternoon, because the bus stop wasn’t too close to our house. There were also times in which I’d walk up to the grocery store and Blockbusters. We lived near a fairly busy road, but at the same time, a child in their teens is old enough and smart enough to look both ways and be careful when crossing the road.

I imagine if my papa had sent me to the store to get him snacks when I was sixteen, I’d be more than a little irritated (because I was kind of a pill at that age), but I’d be more or less resigned and maybe count the money to see if I have enough to grab something for myself while I’m there.

I kind of have to agree with everyone else here. The guy doesn’t sound like a scumbag. He just sounds like a hardworking dude tired after a day’s work who had no idea that one meaningless errand would lead to his daughter getting killed. Because the sad truth is, unless you are God, there’s no way to keep bad things from happening to you or your loved ones. Merely by being alive, you’re taking chances every day. The only time someone is completely a hundred percent safe, is when they are dead.

Hmmm. So, I just watched a little of the Nightmare Next Door episode as I haven't seen this one in a while. While I stand by what I said 100% about the father not being blamed I will say that...

I understand what Wiseguy, and JannTosh are saying. I don't necessarily agree, but I understand where their anger and judgement is coming from. In the episode it said that Kari wasn't "keen" on going as it was cold and she was studying, and kept begging her little sister to go with her. While I don't think the father forced her, it does seem like he put a little pressure on her to go as she said she didn't want to and then begged her sister.

What Wiseguy, and JannTosh are saying is that it wasn't important to make her go to the store for something insignificant despite her pleading. I don't think the guy was a scumbag myself, and he obviously had no idea what was going to happen, but I think they mean that instead of forcing her to go, he could've went himself or just went without.

I mean, it is kind of off putting that she didn't want to go while she was studying and it was cold outside, and he still made her go. I don't think he's the worst guy in the world, but after looking at it again, I understand where they're coming from.

I just think from their perspective they see the father as lazy, because instead of going himself, or just going without, he broke her from her studies to go and she said she didn't want to. Again, not the worst guy, but I see what they mean.

I dunno. As a teenager, there were plenty of times I tried to weasel my way out of doing something I didn’t want to by arguing or pleading with my parents. My parents would then be like, “Tough,” and tell me to get cracking. It was probably just Kari being a teenager and there’s not likely to be any deeper reasoning behind it.

Plus, while he should have just sucked it up and gotten the stuff himself, I can understand that he might have been worn out from a long day’s work and wasn’t really thinking. Sending her out was probably a dumb thing to do, but while he may not be a perfect parent, I see no reason for Wiseguy and JannTosh to depict him as this horribly negligent child abuser.

I dunno. As a teenager, there were plenty of times I tried to weasel my way out of doing something I didn’t want to by arguing or pleading with my parents. My parents would then be like, “Tough,” and tell me to get cracking. It was probably just Kari being a teenager and there’s not likely to be any deeper reasoning behind it.

Plus, while he should have just sucked it up and gotten the stuff himself, I can understand that he might have been worn out from a long day’s work and wasn’t really thinking. Sending her out was probably a dumb thing to do, but while he may not be a perfect parent, I see no reason for Wiseguy and JannTosh to depict him as this horribly negligent child abuser.

I mean, yeah, they went too far with it but I'm just saying that I understand their perspective. I don't think he Stone Cold stunnered her out the door, but I think what they're saying is that he seemed lazy to push her out the door for snacks while she was studying.

Also, the "deeper reasoning" is what was said on the Nightmare Neighbor Nextdoor episode. It said that she wasn't keen on going since it was cold outside and she was studying then she started begging her little sister to go with her.

I don't agree with what they're saying, but I understand. I don't think the father should be dragged under a bus though. A simple mistake.

Kristi Gunderson Lee and Ted Loseff are the most criminally underrated cases that do not get nearly the amount of discussion that other cases get.

I agree these are amazingly underrated and under-discussed cases.

Another unpopular opinion I hold is that Jenny Pratt's mom articulated perfectly understandable, normal feelings for someone who had experienced that which she had. I ain't gonna rag on her for it.

Another unpopular opinion I hold is that Jenny Pratt's mom articulated perfectly understandable, normal feelings for someone who had experienced that which she had. I ain't gonna rag on her for it.

Never understood the bad rap she gets either.

I agree these are amazingly underrated and under-discussed cases.

Another unpopular opinion I hold is that Jenny Pratt's mom articulated perfectly understandable, normal feelings for someone who had experienced that which she had. I ain't gonna rag on her for it.
Agree wholeheartedly. She had every right to be devastated. Her daughter was making progress, but never going to be able to live life to the fullest due to the attack. I never, ever understood why anyone disliked her or felt she was out of line in that interview.

Definitely also agree that Ted Loseff and Kristie Lee are very underrated.

Another unpopular opinion I hold is that Jenny Pratt's mom articulated perfectly understandable, normal feelings for someone who had experienced that which she had. I ain't gonna rag on her for it.

There are people who have? ticked:

How the hell can anyone say anything negative about her, after what they went through? :(

There are people who have? ticked:

How the hell can anyone say anything negative about her, after what they went through? :(

Oh, she got brutally slammed here for that comment in the regular segment. ("I'll always love Jenny. But I sure miss the old Jenny.")

But even more people blasted her for the follow up interview she did with Jenny in the Live from the Telecenter special episode. I haven't seen it in a long time but people were angry with her for constantly cutting Jenny off during the interview.

Oh, she got brutally slammed here for that comment in the regular segment. ("I'll always love Jenny. But I sure miss the old Jenny.")

But even more people blasted her for the follow up interview she did with Jenny in the Live from the Telecenter special episode. I haven't seen it in a long time but people were angry with her for constantly cutting Jenny off during the interview.

I don't remember if I saw the Telecenter one. Been a long time if I have. But for God's sake, how can anyone take issue with that comment?

The Hechts were your typical Beverly Hills family. They loved Adam. They weren't hateful, snooty, intolerant, racist people who dismissed anyone less fortunate than them. They were concerned their son/brother was hanging out with a guy who performed bizarre rituals, caused Adam to burn himself and probably played a part in his eventual disappearance, if not outright murder and were bothered that he was evading authorities, refusing to come out of Adam's apartment (a potential crime scene) and trying to grope Martine.

I get the feeling that in the Scott Johnson segment that there was information left out which supported the conclusion of an accidental death. The theory that they were murdered because they found 2 dudes smoking pot is just ridiculous, IMO.

I get the feeling that in the Scott Johnson segment that there was information left out which supported the conclusion of an accidental death. The theory that they were murdered because they found 2 dudes smoking pot is just ridiculous, IMO.

I can agree with you about the smoking pot theory.

But as for everything else, I can't think of any scenario that would support accidental death. And that all comes down to the fact that the door on the shack had no lock. You need to get out of there? Just push on the door. It should take about one second to get out, especially in a panic situation like that. The only way you're going to get stuck in there is if somebody is holding the door shut to prevent your escape. And the eyewitness sightings of two men at the shack while it was on fire support that.

Two 8 year old boys getting curious and playing with matches is completely believable. But making no attempt to leave an unlocked room once they have started the fire? Unless they were both knocked unconscious(or maybe fainted?) before the fire became big enough to be a concern, there would be no reason to stay inside.

Two 8 year old boys getting curious and playing with matches is completely believable. But making no attempt to leave an unlocked room once they have started the fire? Unless they were both knocked unconscious(or maybe fainted?) before the fire became big enough to be a concern, there would be no reason to stay inside.

I wonder if it's possible that the boys started a fire inside the shack, and stayed inside for a period of time, and due to the smoke and the small measurements of the shack, passed out before the fire spread and engulfed the entire thing? I don't think the boys simply stayed inside and died. I just don't think Dale Meador's account, coupled with the other 2 teenagers who said they saw two men near the burning shack, is enough evidence for murder. The 2 teens could've seen the people who reported the fire.

I wonder if it's possible that the boys started a fire inside the shack, and stayed inside for a period of time, and due to the smoke and the small measurements of the shack, passed out before the fire spread and engulfed the entire thing? I don't think the boys simply stayed inside and died. I just don't think Dale Meador's account, coupled with the other 2 teenagers who said they saw two men near the burning shack, is enough evidence for murder. The 2 teens could've seen the people who reported the fire.

To piggyback on that, I always wanted to know more about the geography of the area where the fire took place. Just going by the segment, it looked almost rural and remote. That being said, I wonder why, if the accounts are to be believed, all these people were hanging around this shack. I mean, you have the two witnesses, Meador, and two two killers. So, 5 people not counting the boys and you're still at three people if you don't count the killers. That always struck me as odd. What attracted these folks to the area?

I wonder if it's possible that the boys started a fire inside the shack, and stayed inside for a period of time, and due to the smoke and the small measurements of the shack, passed out before the fire spread and engulfed the entire thing? I don't think the boys simply stayed inside and died. I just don't think Dale Meador's account, coupled with the other 2 teenagers who said they saw two men near the burning shack, is enough evidence for murder. The 2 teens could've seen the people who reported the fire.

Don't forget they found the board with the scorch mark on it that looks like it was used to hold the door shut. I can't see it as an accident since it is so small. At some point, survival instinct would most likely kick in and they would crawl out. It's not like they got lost and couldn't find the door. If it were a larger structure I might by the accident theory, but I think it was murder.

To piggyback on that, I always wanted to know more about the geography of the area where the fire took place. Just going by the segment, it looked almost rural and remote. That being said, I wonder why, if the accounts are to be believed, all these people were hanging around this shack. I mean, you have the two witnesses, Meador, and two two killers. So, 5 people not counting the boys and you're still at three people if you don't count the killers. That always struck me as odd. What attracted these folks to the area?


Rio Drive (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/35.1483112,-114.5630318/350+Lee+Ave,+Bullhead+City,+AZ+86429/@35.1471313,-114.5639565,517m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!4m13!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d-114.563024!2d35.1466135!3s0x80ce42367af0b013:0x78fc97cd2ba28c26!1m5!1m1!1s0x80ce423670f57a1b:0xc86f5b0b62d9249f!2m2!1d-114.5650055!2d35.1466117!3e2) is where Scott lived at the time. The house across the street was not there (https://www.google.com/maps/place/2495+Rio+Dr,+Bullhead+City,+AZ+86429/@35.1480731,-114.5629751,3a,75y,185.65h,77.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si9n-TD3WwdZh7hnIKwI_hQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x80ce42362d797ed3:0x6856ae7cc6af8a97!8m2!3d35.1482764!4d-114.5630349) at the time of his death. You can see the water tower featured in the segment in the background. Looks like a fairly desolate area, and probably a good spot for teenagers to go drink beer and smoke pot.

Don't forget they found the board with the scorch mark on it that looks like it was used to hold the door shut. I can't see it as an accident since it is so small. At some point, survival instinct would most likely kick in and they would crawl out. It's not like they got lost and couldn't find the door. If it were a larger structure I might by the accident theory, but I think it was murder.

The hole on the board should've matched the open cylinder on the door to the shed if it was used to hold the door shut. The segment simply states that a "small charred circle" was found on one side of the board. Plus, the police theorized that Scott and his friend were playing with matches and gasoline inside the shack. Were the Johnson's or the Hill's missing a gas can or match book at the time of their deaths? If so, that would put a huge damper in the murder theory and lend more credence to the theory that they were playing in the shed. That's what I mean about something being left out. Because they way that the story was presented on UM, it would be a no brainer that there was foul play involved. And the size of the shed makes me think accident would be more likely than a larger structure. Because it would've taken less time for them to realize something was wrong and it would've been quicker for them to pass out due to the smoke inside.

ETA: The fact that Peter Hill's parents or relatives had nothing to do with the UM segment, also made me think there might have been something left out of the segment and that they did in fact accept the official ruling of an accidental death. I also suppose it's possible that Meador simply saw the shack burning that day, and was either the man seen standing at the shack, or was the one running away from it and decided to morph his story as a way to try and get some sort of a deal in prison when he first reported it 4 years after Scott and Peter's deaths.

It was pretty clear to me there was heavy drug activity going on in the area of the shack. Probably lots of buying and selling. The 5 people (aside from the kids) that were said or known to be there all had sketchy and questionable pasts. Plus the $100 bill. It's not every day you see a Benjamin just breezing by on the desert. They were murdered.

Time has softened my stance somewhat on Diane Strom. I don't blame her for being angry. I can understand how, under the circumstances, she would be blunt, speak her mind and not care what anyone thinks. I do, however, think she suffers from a case of misplaced anger. If she wants to be angry, fine. Direct it at the people who attacked your daughter. Don't state in front of your daughter that her attackers will never be caught, don't trash the show by saying it didn't help any, and don't chastise the potential witnesses (many of whom were probably minors and no doubt felt threatened or scared to come forward).

Honestly, I think Diane needed help with anger management and hopefully she was able to get the help she needed.

Kurt Sova voluntarily drank an excess amount of alcohol that his thin, underage body couldn't handle and he died as a result of that. He wasn't murdered, and the theory that a dozen or so people colluded together to cover-up his death (when most of them probably didn't even know what was happening and/or were too drunk themselves to have assisted him and all have remained silent to this day, some 35+ years later) is a wee bit far-fetched.

Kurt Sova voluntarily drank an excess amount of alcohol that his thin, underage body couldn't handle and he died as a result of that. He wasn't murdered, and the theory that a dozen or so people colluded together to cover-up his death (when most of them probably didn't even know what was happening and/or were too drunk themselves to have assisted him and all have remained silent to this day, some 35+ years later) is a wee bit far-fetched.


I think this was one of those unsolved "mysteries" that really isn't much of a mystery.

Kurt Sova voluntarily drank an excess amount of alcohol that his thin, underage body couldn't handle and he died as a result of that. He wasn't murdered, and the theory that a dozen or so people colluded together to cover-up his death (when most of them probably didn't even know what was happening and/or were too drunk themselves to have assisted him and all have remained silent to this day, some 35+ years later) is a wee bit far-fetched.

Is he the one who was drinking ever clear? That’s basically poison

Is he the one who was drinking ever clear? That’s basically poison

Yeah. That was conveniently left out of the segment, but a newspaper article provided this fact.

"That man has Jonathan" was just a line from a segment. There was nothing funny or special about it.

Applying Occam's Razor constantly to Unsolved Mysteries cases is an all too convenient way to pigeonhole things while simultaneously dismissing a lot of important aspects to the cases that suggest a different alternative. Criminals are desperate people who will often go to absolutely outrageous lengths to get what they want. If a theory involving a suspect seems "crazy", well, its because criminals are often crazy.

To expand on my feelings about the Kurt Sova case, I believe Kurt was drinking heavily before the party and continued drinking during the party. I don't believe he walked into the duplex with the intention of drinking fruit punch all night. And while I understand Dorothy Sova's grief, I don't think Kurt was the perfect little boy who was always home by 9:00 the way she was making him out to be.

JonBenet Ramsey was killed by a violent sexual predator and pedophile who remains unidentified to this day. She was not killed by her nine year old brother, her father who had already experienced the tragedy of losing a daughter at a young age, or her doting mother who had just nearly escaped from the claws of death herself. Burke is/was a socially awkward person, and John and Patsy did make some of the careless mistakes that rich people who think they are invincible make, but none of them killed JonBenet.

At the very least, Dr. Jeffrey McDonald and Darlie Routier deserve new trials. If they are so obviously and completely guilty the way some people allege, then certainly nobody on planet Earth would object to them getting new trials since they would quickly and easily be found guilty in their second trials as well.

No U.S. President, whether it be Republican Ronald Reagan or Democrat Bill Clinton, purposefully orchestrated or were negligently responsible for the deaths/murders of dozens if not hundreds of people.

I think it's entirely within the realm of reasonable possibility that Dottie Caylor met a fate other than being killed by her husband Jule. While I am uncertain as to whether that was suicide, accident, voluntary disappearance or foul play at the hands of someone else, I don't know, but there are a lot of things to suggest an alternative other than being whacked by her husband at the last minute. I do not think she was an abused woman. I feel she was a strange, confrontational woman with mental health issues and she only suffered from agoraphobia when it was convenient for her to do so. And I can totally understand how Jule would want to be away from all of that.

And while Unsolved Mysteries did make mistakes from time to time, it was overall an extremely accurate show with precise attention to detail. I'm uncomfortable that seemingly every statement that has ever been uttered on the show is questioned if it doesn't jive with someone's preconceived theories.

Don't forget they found the board with the scorch mark on it that looks like it was used to hold the door shut. I can't see it as an accident since it is so small. At some point, survival instinct would most likely kick in and they would crawl out. It's not like they got lost and couldn't find the door. If it were a larger structure I might by the accident theory, but I think it was murder.

Indeed. The door to the shack was metal. Once the fire starts, eventually the door is going to become too hot to hold shut with your own hands so the board is used to hold it shut.

If it wasn't used to hold the door shut, what other reason explains a large wooden board being found just a couple feet from the shack with a round mark burned into it and no burn marks anywhere else?

This is why the original fire investigator believed someone prevented the boys from escaping that building, even before any eyewitnesses statements were taken.

So I definitely feel they were murdered. If the shack had a lock and Scott and his friends had a habit of accidentally getting locked in there while they were playing, then I could understand an accidental death being the most likely scenario. As such, playing with matches and gasoline and accidentally lighting yourself on fire, your first instinct is going to be getting out of there. If there's too much smoke preventing you from seeing where the door is, it's still not going to take that long to find it because the shack was the size of a coat closet.

To expand on my feelings about the Kurt Sova case, I believe Kurt was drinking heavily before the party and continued drinking during the party. I don't believe he walked into the duplex with the intention of drinking fruit punch all night. And while I understand Dorothy Sova's grief, I don't think Kurt was the perfect little boy who was always home by 9:00 the way she was making him out to be.

I took a lot NONSENSE for pointing this out in the Kurt Sova thread. I said I felt sorry for Kurts parents, but I don't have any sympathy otherwise. This was not a case of foul play or some elaborate cover up. It was a irresponsible teen who died of alcohol poisoning. It was compounded by a sloppy law enforcement investigation. UM made a mountain out of a molehill with this story.

I took a lot grief for pointing this out in the Kurt Sova thread. I said I felt sorry for Kurts parents, but I don't have any sympathy otherwise.

Please don't take this opportunity to play the victim card. The "grief" you took was not from people who disagreed with you over how Kurt died or the laughable police work that went into this case. It was surprise over your lack of sympathy towards Kurt losing his life and the complete lack of logic you used to justify that thinking. Most specifically when you said...

"Kurt Sova was a loser with no future. There is no argument to be made otherwise."

and...

"Kurt's brother was already in trouble with the law. Was Kurt going to graduate high school with honors and attend college??? I dont think so."

We just found it odd that you apparently had the magical powers to know exactly how Kurt's life would have turned out had he not died at that party. So you just pulled this fate out of mid-air as justification for how there shouldn't be any sadness expressed for a 14 year old boy losing his life. And basically writing off any teenager who cuts school one day and does some underage drinking. Because, you know...teenagers have probably never done that, and they ALL end up losers for life, right?

Most of all, we were worried that a member of the Sova family might come here and read these comments (as family members have done here many times before.) Decades may pass, but the pain over the death of a loved one never goes away. Sure, you said that you felt sorry for the parents, but that doesn't negate all the 'Kurt was a loser,' statements you made that still would have cut them just as deep.

And finally, you made the point that us still talking about the case was pathetic, which pretty much implied that the majority of us here were pathetic, and that's naturally going to get a response. So these things should be noted the next time you complain about getting the "grief" you got over Kurt Sova.

Replace grief with nonsense. Does that make you feel better? Your fake outrage that I don't feel sympathy towards Kurt is laughable. I bet you feel sorry for people that drink and drive and as a result kill other people at the same time they kill themself. Thank god your hero/victim Kurt didn't have a car to get into the night he drank himself to death. But yeah, let your imagination run wild. And remember one thing, DynoDude, I'm the licensed private detective with a state licensed agency. You may not like the truth and the reality, but ill give it to you in spades every day of the week. Bring your misplaced emotions to someone who deals in crazy. I do business in reality.

Their narrative just reads like a massive stretch and a thing that could only exist in fiction.

The notion his elderly parents disposed of a 300lb woman is absurd, nor that he could have by himself.

Assuming Paul dismembered her where was the blood? The neighbor saw him loading the car in the morning with boxes and bags, her family invaded that evening. If she was in the car in the morning she wasn't in the shed that evening. The cleaning by his parents didn't happen until the days that followed the day she disappeared, so where was the blood? Nothing on the carpets, the kitchen, nothing in the snow by the shed, there would have been something visible the evening they were there before all the cleaning.

"Mommy was put in a dark trash bag". Whole? I don't think so. If the child was able to remember that much, wouldn't they remember she was in pieces? If his parents were willing accomplices wouldn't they have taken the children so that all could have been done unseen?

Every piece of their evidence is a massive leap to the worst imaginable conclusion. The mother keeps her up on the phone till 1:30am because of a cold and then is shocked at 8:50am she's still sleeping. She doesn't answer the phone so she calls back every 10 minutes. It's weird.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The Nagi Family wasted no time going into hyper, extreme over-reaction mode (bordering on outright hysteria) and kept that up to the hilt. It's difficult to imagine a possible timeframe for Paul to have pulled this off given that Charlotte's mother was all up in their affairs from sunrise to sunset. Probably their most ridiculous claim was that the shed was "bulging". Okay, I get that Charlotte is/was a large woman, but the way they paint it, it was the remains of Andre The Giant in that shed, causing it to bulge almost to the point of explosion. Beyond absurd doesn't begin to describe it.

Replace grief with nonsense. Does that make you feel better? Your fake outrage that I don't feel sympathy towards Kurt is laughable. I bet you feel sorry for people that drink and drive and as a result kill other people at the same time they kill themself. Thank god your hero/victim Kurt didn't have a car to get into the night he drank himself to death. But yeah, let your imagination run wild. And remember one thing, DynoDude, I'm the licensed private detective with a state licensed agency. You may not like the truth and the reality, but ill give it to you in spades every day of the week. Bring your misplaced emotions to someone who deals in crazy. I do business in reality.

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"Replace grief with nonsense. Does that make you feel better? Your fake outrage that I don't feel sympathy towards Kurt is laughable. I bet you feel sorry for people that drink and drive and as a result kill other people at the same time they kill themself. Thank god your hero/victim Kurt didn't have a car to get into the night he drank himself to death. But yeah, let your imagination run wild. And remember one thing, DynoDude, I'm the licensed private detective with a state licensed agency. You may not like the truth and the reality, but ill give it to you in spades every day of the week. Bring your misplaced emotions to someone who deals in crazy. I do business in reality." - LakeForestPI

Your outrage is more fake than DynoGuy's. Kurt wasn't drinking and driving and endangering other people's lives, he was a teenager at a party. You're not wrong in your feelings, but calling him a "loser" and "pathetic" doesn't make any sense. He wasn't a father who was drinking at home with his kids, or drinking on the job, he was doing what teenagers do. Party.

Doesn't matter what/how he would've ended up in life, he died as a young man who was drinking alcohol. Calling him names shows what a try hard you are. I like how you bring up being a detective like it means anything. You're a PI. So what? Does that give you the right to insult someone who died who you didn't know personally, and who didn't injure anyone else?

I don't care what you are, you're just a vile dude all around. No one is biting into the "tough guy" act. You're too old to be acting this edgy. You should've been banned a long time ago.

I also feel sorry for anyone who would hire such a heartless, and brainless P.I.

While I do feel Kurt Sova made a lot of bad choices that night, he was nonetheless a child. Children often make poor choices, a lot of them unintentionally, this is why they don't live on their own. They aren't mature enough. Kurt's death was undoubtedly sad, and moreso when you consider there is one person left in that immediate family.

While I do feel Kurt Sova made a lot of bad choices that night, he was nonetheless a child. Children often make poor choices, a lot of them unintentionally, this is why they don't live on their own. They aren't mature enough. Kurt's death was undoubtedly sad, and moreso when you consider there is one person left in that immediate family.

I, too, think Kurt drank too much and died as a result. I also think Amy Bradley got drunk that night, and fell overboard as a result from being sick. Should I call her a worthless whore who wouldn't have amounted to anything? No.

People make mistakes, sometimes fatal, but it takes some serious lack of brain power to insult a teenager who was just drinking. If Kurt was bothering anyone else, or harmed anyone else, then I wouldn't argue. But from what we know he was just drinking. No need to call him names, and speculate on his future.

I, too, think Kurt drank too much and died as a result. I also think Amy Bradley got drunk that night, and fell overboard as a result from being sick. Should I call her a worthless whore who wouldn't have amounted to anything? No.

I don't know how I feel about Amy Bradley's case anymore. I used to think foul play or something along those lines, but I was watching an America's Most Wanted segment on her case recently, and her parents were shocked she wasn't up at like 8 or 9 in the morning. Um, she was up all night drinking and was still up at 5:15 in the morning. She probably would have slept til noon. I suddenly found myself doubting their accounts.

I don't know how I feel about Amy Bradley's case anymore. I used to think foul play or something along those lines, but I was watching an America's Most Wanted segment on her case recently, and her parents were shocked she wasn't up at like 8 or 9 in the morning. Um, she was up all night drinking and was still up at 5:15 in the morning. She probably would have slept til noon. I suddenly found myself doubting their accounts.

I'm 100% certain she fell overboard. Her brother said he last seen her on the balcony after she last came in. Her father said she saw her laying on the balcony in the early morning. Her shoes were still there, but her cigarettes were gone. She went up to go smoke and went overboard.

If she was drinking all night, and she had a fear of the water, she probably got up to smoke/vomit and when she went to the railing got lightheaded and fell over.

In the video, she looks like she was voluntarily dancing on Yellow. Then on top of that if Yellow really wanted to kidnap/sell/kill her why let her go back to the cabin at all?

A simple case in which the parents didn't want to accept the outcome. Everyone last saw her on the balcony on the morning the ship was supposed to dock. Grand opening, grand closing.

There was nothing overly mysterious about the Dan Tondevold segment, other than how Tondevold became involved with Ellen Berry. Pretty simple story of a dude who milked a wealthy widow for everything she was worth, and when the funds ran out, he committed suicide.

If some people feel I was over the top about how I described Kurt, so be it. I had a good friend in HS that died from a heroin overdose on his 20th birthday. I was gone at college n hadn't seen him in 2 years. I find out what he had been doing after HS, I just shook my head. I felt horrible for his mother. He was an only child. But guess what, he was a loser. Because he was my friend didn't change that fact. At least we have "guys" on this forum like Dyno n Freaky who can cry about me and my comments about Kurt, yet continually insult other posters who don't buy into their crackpot theories. Put aside the fact they have no actual investigative background. Experience is overrated if you ask the likes of them

At least we have "guys" on this forum like Dyno n Freaky who can cry about me and my comments about Kurt, yet continually insult other posters who don't buy into their crackpot theories. Put aside the fact they have no actual investigative background. Experience is overrated if you ask the likes of them - LakeForesPI

I need an investigative background to insult a dead person who I didn't know personally, got it.

There's a difference between having petty arguments with posters on this forum, and insulting people who passed away who family members could be reading.

You feel how you feel, I'm not going to tell you to worship Kurt as a great kid, but insulting him on an open forum in which his family could be reading is unnecessary. But do you playa.

Unpopular Opinion: We fight too much. We can disagree until we are all blue in the face, but let’s try to remain civil.

Thanks, y’all.

Unpopular Opinion: We fight too much. We can disagree until we are all blue in the face, but let’s try to remain civil.

Thanks, y’all.

That is a POPULAR opinion :lol: :lol:

Unpopular Opinion: We fight too much. We can disagree until we are all blue in the face, but let’s try to remain civil.

Thanks, y’all.

I don't think we fight ENOUGH :mad: :mad: :mad:

We should start an Unsolved Mysteries Fight Club.

I don't think the guy who murdered Philip Fraser was a serial killer.

I don't think we fight ENOUGH :mad: :mad: :mad:

We should start an Unsolved Mysteries Fight Club.


Damn it! You’ve already broken Rules 1 and 2 of UM Fight Club! ;)

I don't think the guy who murdered Philip Fraser was a serial killer.

Me neither. I've always maintained that it was a crime of opportunity. For all we know it could've been self-defense.

As classic as the original Unsolved Mysteries was (1987-1995ish), it will never be duplicated in terms of greatness, no matter how many times its brought back from cancellation, no matter who the host is, and no matter how hard people try. It should just be left alone and remembered for how great it was. There are plenty of shows today (dealing in both mysterious deaths/missing persons and the supernatural, two very different subject matters) around to fill the void. I don't want yet another revival and modern-day crap getting injected into it. There haven't been new episodes for over 15 years and there is little hope of it ever coming back. People watched America's Most Wanted for over two decades, now they watch The Hunt with John Walsh. Reboots (like Cold Case Files earlier this year) are almost always failures.

Damn it! You’ve already broken Rules 1 and 2 of UM Fight Club! ;)

Technically not, as it didn't exist, yet. ;)

I'm so full of loopholes, I should be a "knot expert." :rolleyes:

Yes, that's me expressing my skepticism with the ruling in the Cindy James case.

As classic as the original Unsolved Mysteries was (1987-1995ish), it will never be duplicated in terms of greatness, no matter how many times its brought back from cancellation, no matter who the host is, and no matter how hard people try. It should just be left alone and remembered for how great it was. There are plenty of shows today (dealing in both mysterious deaths/missing persons and the supernatural, two very different subject matters) around to fill the void. I don't want yet another revival and modern-day crap getting injected into it. There haven't been new episodes for over 15 years and there is little hope of it ever coming back. People watched America's Most Wanted for over two decades, now they watch The Hunt with John Walsh. Reboots (like Cold Case Files earlier this year) are almost always failures.

I've got to say, as much as it pains me to have to admit it, I agree. I'd LOVE to see a new/classic version of UM, but there's no way it could happen, today. Not only due to the amount of other shows filling the place, but also...truthfully, I don't think the masses really have the attention span or even a small amount of f**** to give. I realize part of that is my general cynicism about humanity as a whole, but I do feel there is some truth to it. :(

Outside of the rarity of some of the segments, there was nothing special about the Malden/Burr episodes.

Outside of the rarity of some of the segments, there was nothing special about the Malden/Burr episodes.

In fairness, though, they really didn't have much of a chance to find a groove or make it special.

In fairness, though, they really didn't have much of a chance to find a groove or make it special.

Outside of Kyra Cook, Wanda Jean Mays, Glen Consagra, and Don Kemp, none of the other segments were particularly interesting to me.

I never found the Charles Holden and Dorothy Donovan segment as hard to believe as the police, Unsolved Mysteries, and many people commenting seemed to. Chilling, yes. An unfortunate and tragic
coincidence, certainly. But implausible or a suspension of disbelief, not at all.

The Tunnel Robbers are criminals. They aren't cool and their work doesn't need to be fawned over as if it were some grand, hardworking, state-of-the-art masterpiece. Who knows what other crimes they have committed.

truthfully, I don't think the masses really have the attention span

That was one of the many reasons I liked UM. My attention span isn't the best, but most segments were only 10-15 minutes long so if I was bored with one, I didn't have to wait long for a different segment.

I like other shows that profile true crime cases (Dateline, 20/20, Disappeared) but if I am utterly bored with the case they're profiling I know I will be bored the entire episode (unlike UM).

Me neither. I've always maintained that it was a crime of opportunity. For all we know it could've been self-defense.

I respect the point you’re making, but I have a hard time believing little Phillip Fraser could pose a threat to anyone...

I respect the point you’re making, but I have a hard time believing little Phillip Fraser could pose a threat to anyone...

Phillip may have at least been able to defend himself, but the Canadian authorities confiscated his firearms.

If some people feel I was over the top about how I described Kurt, so be it. I had a good friend in HS that died from a heroin overdose on his 20th birthday. I was gone at college n hadn't seen him in 2 years. I find out what he had been doing after HS, I just shook my head. I felt horrible for his mother. He was an only child. But guess what, he was a loser. Because he was my friend didn't change that fact. At least we have "guys" on this forum like Dyno n Freaky who can cry about me and my comments about Kurt, yet continually insult other posters who don't buy into their crackpot theories. Put aside the fact they have no actual investigative background. Experience is overrated if you ask the likes of them

You have no idea what most of our backgrounds are.

Teenagers are biologically programmed to make bad decisions. Unfortunately, sometimes those decisions are fatal. That doesn't make them losers or prove that they deserve it, it just means they were unlucky. Life is about calculated risks and weighing decisions. I feel fairly confident saying that everyone in this forum made some decisions that if their luck had swung another way could have completely changed, ruined or even ended their life.

Try a little compassion once in a while. You can tell the truth without offending vast swaths of people if you chose your words a little more carefully.

I respect the point you’re making, but I have a hard time believing little Phillip Fraser could pose a threat to anyone...

Well, let me rephrase. It's possible that Phillip was becoming increasingly annoyed/scared of the hitchhiker. He may have told him to get out of the car at some point, and when the hitchhiker denied, Phillip could've tried to push him out, or threaten him. Then a fight could've broken out.

Remember, according to the women at the diner, Phillip didn't want to let him in to begin with. I can see Phillip telling/trying to force him to get out in which a fight breaks out.

I don't think the hitchhiker was as crazy as UM portrayed him. I'm not saying he wasn't a POS, but he ample opportunities to kill the person who dropped him off at the diner, the people at the diner, and the older couple. There might just be more to this story than we think.

Granted, he didn't have to kill Phillip and could've just left him roadside, but I don't know.

You have no idea what most of our backgrounds are.

Teenagers are biologically programmed to make bad decisions. Unfortunately, sometimes those decisions are fatal. That doesn't make them losers or prove that they deserve it, it just means they were unlucky. Life is about calculated risks and weighing decisions. I feel fairly confident saying that everyone in this forum made some decisions that if their luck had swung another way could have completely changed, ruined or even ended their life.

Try a little compassion once in a while. You can tell the truth without offending vast swaths of people if you chose your words a little more carefully.

I'm in my 30's. That means I was a teenager at one point in my life. I also spent 4 years away at college. I did a lot of drinking and a lot of fighting in those 4 years. Also during my college years i worked for a moving company and I drove a tractor trailer cross county. Was in a lot of truck stops and rest areas. Saw a lot of crazy stuff. Had some near death experiences along the way. But I worked hard and drank hard. But I wasn't a loser. I valued my job, my class a cdl and the fact my mother was paying my college tuition. Next time you feel like lecturing someone on here make sure it ain't me. I've been there done that. Now I'm just a boring guy with a wife, kids and a detective agency who doesnt listen to lectures.

Well, let me rephrase. It's possible that Phillip was becoming increasingly annoyed/scared of the hitchhiker. He may have told him to get out of the car at some point, and when the hitchhiker denied, Phillip could've tried to push him out, or threaten him. Then a fight could've broken out.

Remember, according to the women at the diner, Phillip didn't want to let him in to begin with. I can see Phillip telling/trying to force him to get out in which a fight breaks out.

I don't think the hitchhiker was as crazy as UM portrayed him. I'm not saying he wasn't a POS, but he ample opportunities to kill the person who dropped him off at the diner, the people at the diner, and the older couple. There might just be more to this story than we think.

Granted, he didn't have to kill Phillip and could've just left him roadside, but I don't know.

I don't believe you, I'm sorry. I guess torching his car and stealing Phillip's possessions and identity were just an added bonus for him?

He obviously isn't going to kill everyone he comes in contact with. If that were the case, he would have been caught in no time.

Fascinating. I continuously (not once in a while but CONTINUOUSLY) insult the posters here who don't agree with my theories? This is complete news to me. 17 years posting here and I never knew I did that.

How do you all put up with me? I'm sure there are support groups out there that will help you recover from my constant cruelty. :rolleyes:

I don't believe you, I'm sorry. I guess torching his car and stealing Phillip's possessions and identity were just an added bonus for him?

He obviously isn't going to kill everyone he comes in contact with. If that were the case, he would have been caught in no time.

I don't believe me either. It was just a theory. Granted, if it were a fight turned deadly then it's possible that he took his possessions as a way to slow down the police. He could've took the money but left the wallet. If the police found his body with his identification on him then the word would get out faster. If he had nothing then it'd take longer for word to get out and he'd have more time to get away.

Or Phillip was just killed for his car/belongings. I don't have a dog in this race either way.

Fascinating. I continuously (not once in a while but CONTINUOUSLY) insult the posters here who don't agree with my theories? This is complete news to me. 17 years posting here and I never knew I did that.

How do you all put up with me? I'm sure there are support groups out there that will help you recover from my constant cruelty. :rolleyes:

I think he was referring to me.

Fascinating. I continuously (not once in a while but CONTINUOUSLY) insult the posters here who don't agree with my theories? This is complete news to me. 17 years posting here and I never knew I did that.

How do you all put up with me? I'm sure there are support groups out there that will help you recover from my constant cruelty. :rolleyes:

I've taken to hard drink, myself. It dulls the pain of being insulted by you. :crying:

I'm in my 30's and still make boneheaded decisions. But not boneheaded enough to make alternate accounts on a message board dedicated to long since gone sitcoms so I can read what some poster I have been blocked from viewing has to say. #NotVeryProfessional

I'm in my 30's and still make boneheaded decisions. But not boneheaded enough to make alternate accounts on a message board dedicated to long since gone sitcoms so I can read what some poster I have been blocked from viewing has to say. #NotVeryProfessional

???

I don't have multiple accounts. I can see his messages without an alternate account.

???

I don't have multiple accounts. I can see his messages without an alternate account.

Not you.

Not you.

My bad

I'm in my 30's and still make boneheaded decisions. But not boneheaded enough to make alternate accounts on a message board dedicated to long since gone sitcoms so I can read what some poster I have been blocked from viewing has to say. #NotVeryProfessional

Fascinating. I continuously (not once in a while but CONTINUOUSLY) insult the posters here who don't agree with my theories? This is complete news to me. 17 years posting here and I never knew I did that.

How do you all put up with me? I'm sure there are support groups out there that will help you recover from my constant cruelty. :rolleyes:

That reminds me. I need to send you the bill for the therapist I hired to get over the trauma of your perpetual insults and constant cruelty. :happyface

I'm in my 30's. That means I was a teenager at one point in my life. I also spent 4 years away at college. I did a lot of drinking and a lot of fighting in those 4 years. Also during my college years i worked for a moving company and I drove a tractor trailer cross county. Was in a lot of truck stops and rest areas. Saw a lot of crazy stuff. Had some near death experiences along the way. But I worked hard and drank hard. But I wasn't a loser. I valued my job, my class a cdl and the fact my mother was paying my college tuition. Next time you feel like lecturing someone on here make sure it ain't me. I've been there done that. Now I'm just a boring guy with a wife, kids and a detective agency who doesnt listen to lectures.

No, you're not just a boring guy. You're also a pompous ass. We get it. You're a PI. We're not impressed. Also, I don't take orders from you and will "lecture" anyone I damn well please. You're under no obligation to listen, but that doesn't mean you get to decide what I can and cannot say. That's not how this works.

I don't know if I've mentioned this, but I'm an attorney. :D

Hey, Necco's back! How did I miss that? Whoop whoop! :)

I don't know if I've mentioned this, but I'm an attorney. :D

Hey, Necco's back! How did I miss that? Whoop whoop! :)

Jeez, tell us your whole life story, why don't you? :rolleyes: :happyface

And you missed it because you haven't been paying attention to us! :(

Pay attention to us or we'll be naughty! *Throws a tantrum and breaks something* :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't know if I've mentioned this, but I'm an attorney. :D

50 years ago being an attorney actually meant something. Attorneys are a dime a dozen now. I looked into law school after I got my degree in criminal justice. Colossal waste of money. My wife's brother went to law school after being a bartender for 5 years. He is a assistant states attorney in New Orleans now. I made more money working for a moving company 15 years ago then he makes rite now. But hey, ask any attorney and they'll tell you they're a genius. :lol:

:crazy:

50 years ago being an attorney actually meant something. Attorneys are a dime a dozen now.

Wow. You are a real piece of work. :facepalm:

50 years ago being an attorney actually meant something. Attorneys are a dime a dozen now. I looked into law school after I got my degree in criminal justice. Colossal waste of money.


Ohhh... I know guys like you! Tanked the LSAT? Didn’t have a good enough GPA to make the grade into law school? Then you just weren’t physically fit enough to pass the law enforcement fitness test in order to be a real police officer? I feel you, man. It sucks to be bitter, I know.

The only person that routinely claims they are a genius on here? You. Again, you’re welcome to your opinions, but keep it civil. I know, it’s hard, but I bet you can do it.

Oh, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Diane Strom also said that Jenny's life was "pretty much over." Almost forgot about that one.

Ohhh... I know guys like you! Tanked the LSAT? Didn’t have a good enough GPA to make the grade into law school? Then you just weren’t physically fit enough to pass the law enforcement fitness test in order to be a real police officer? I feel you, man. It sucks to be bitter, I know.

The only person that routinely claims they are a genius on here? You. Again, you’re welcome to your opinions, but keep it civil. I know, it’s hard, but I bet you can do it.

:happyface i have dual citizenship. I went to work for a multinational corporation after college. Making far more money than a cop would. More money than some lawyer in Montana as well form that matter. I'm the one living in Lake Forest. Not you. Your notion that id flunk any exam is as laughable as you thinking your an investigator because you're a lawyer. But feel free to think whatever you like. You're the house mom of some weird, screwball high school clique that operates on this forum. It's pathetic. Any person in the past on this forum that has challenged this status quo gets bullied by the same people in your clique. Good luck trying to bully me. You disingenuous second rate "attorney". But not to worry. I'm done with this board and your dumb #$@% ass. Feel free to stop by my office in Chicago anytime. I always have a round in the chamber for people that want to pull the tough guy act on me. I guess I get that from my uncle, Patrick Nee. I named my son after him.

I know, it’s hard, but I bet you can do it.

Nein. I've been telling ya'll. :lol:

Wow. You are a real piece of work. :facepalm:

Well, he's a piece of...something. We've had short lived posters come here and talk down to everybody before like this. But rarely has a poster had THIS many kiddie tantrums and felt the need to kiss their own ass to THIS extreme of a level.

I'm sure he'll enjoy his new forum home, wherever that is, where he can continue to insult everybody and remind them 50 times a day that he's a PI.

Feel free to stop by my office in Chicago anytime. I always have a round in the chamber for people that want to pull the tough guy act on me.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

"as laughable as you thinking your an investigator..."

Hey, genius: it's "you're". You're welcome.


Feel free to stop by my office in Chicago anytime. I always have a round in the chamber for people that want to pull the tough guy act on me. I guess I get that from my uncle, Patrick Nee. I named my son after him.

We have an official "Internet Tough Guy" here. A keyboard warrior threatening violence because he is getting owned by other people on the board.


I guess I get that from my uncle, Patrick Nee. I named my son after him.

You named your son after a mobster? Wow. Lucky kid. I'm sure he'll be proud of that someday.

Move along, son. Your act is tired and childish.

Well that escalated quickly.

Unpopular Opinion: Tommy Burkett was murdered.

...and that the master carpenter who built the circular staircase was Jesus. :)

Oh, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Diane Strom also said that Jenny's life was "pretty much over." Almost forgot about that one.

I’m missing the context. I know she’s gotten a bad rap, but I can see a grieving parent mourn for the loss of the “old” Jenny...

Unpopular: Lost Love segments are the ****.

Unpopular: Lost Love segments are the ****.

You’re not alone! I found a new appreciation for them in the Amazon Prime run!

You’re not alone! I found a new appreciation for them in the Amazon Prime run!

Same! Gratifying segments to watch after stories featuring so much human depravity, or total creep factor.

I’m missing the context. I know she’s gotten a bad rap, but I can see a grieving parent mourn for the loss of the “old” Jenny...

True, but that's the kind of thing a person (such as Diane) should just keep to themselves. Can you imagine if Jenny was watching and heard things like 'Well, your attackers will never be caught' and 'You have no reason to live because your life is over.' It's not exactly comforting or reassuring.

I guess I would have more appreciation for lost love segments if it weren't for the case that roughly 75% of them were the same thing: Some family from the 50's with 10 children that got split up. That's one of the reasons I liked ones like the Zielinski's, it was a change of pace from the usual lost love.

Unpopular Opinion: Tommy Burkett was murdered.

Really? I guess it is a matter of perception, but I have always believed the opposite. It is really hard to get some folks to concede that the official version of events as relayed by the police was probably correct in a lot of these murder vs. suicide cases. Same deal with most final appeals.

...and that the master carpenter who built the circular staircase was Jesus. :)

Totally.

I don't know if I've mentioned this, but I'm an attorney. :D

Hey, Necco's back! How did I miss that? Whoop whoop! :)

Aw! I was missed! Great to be back. Someone's got to claim Kurt Cobain was murdered and Brad Bishop is living on a farm in the Balkans. :)

Unpopular: Lost Love segments are the ****.

I agree! I understand why some people might not like them since they're a lot different from the murder, missing, and wanted cases. But I just love the reunions, seeing family members and lost friends together again and happy. I also really like the cases (like Cathy Loving and Wendy Radcliffe) where people go out of their way to help someone else and make their lives better.

:happyface i have dual citizenship. I went to work for a multinational corporation after college. Making far more money than a cop would. More money than some lawyer in Montana as well form that matter. I'm the one living in Lake Forest. Not you. Your notion that id flunk any exam is as laughable as you thinking your an investigator because you're a lawyer. But feel free to think whatever you like. You're the house mom of some weird, screwball high school clique that operates on this forum. It's pathetic. Any person in the past on this forum that has challenged this status quo gets bullied by the same people in your clique. Good luck trying to bully me. You disingenuous second rate "attorney". But not to worry. I'm done with this board and your dumb #$@% ass. Feel free to stop by my office in Chicago anytime. I always have a round in the chamber for people that want to pull the tough guy act on me. I guess I get that from my uncle, Patrick Nee. I named my son after him.

When you were at the multinational corporation, did you flip burgers or man the drive thru? Or did you greet people and hand out stickers to kids? McDonalds and Walmart are both multinational corporations. Keep trying to tell us how important you are, though, your overcompensation is amusing. A person's job is no measure of their worth, at least not to people who aren't shallow.

Did you just seriously threaten to shoot us? And drop a mobster reference? Yeah. Ok. People who actually have mob ties don't talk about them. And threatening strangers over the internet is really tough. So tough. Like a toddler with a nerf sword tough.

And finally, this isn't an airport, you don't have to announce your departure.

I hope you find the peace and self-acceptance it is so obvious you need.

The police officer interviewed in the Tommy Burkett segment has to be one of the least convincing people ever on UM. He had no explanation for anything. He is the Tim McClure of law enforcement.

Did you just seriously threaten to shoot us?

Hilariously glossed over. If he isn't banned after this, then ban me instead.

Hilariously glossed over. If he isn't banned after this, then ban me instead.

we need you freakbook. The world needs you. Have you considered running for President in 2020?

we need you freakbook. The world needs you. Have you considered running for President in 2020?

You don't need me. All you need is faith and let God take the wheel.

we need you freakbook. The world needs you. Have you considered running for President in 2020?

I'm also too angry/hot tempered/emotionally unstable to be president. You see how foaming at the mouth I get when someone disagrees with my theory on a 30 year-old cold case from UM?

Now imagine me being insulted by Korea? I shouldn't be in charge of others lives. No good. ;)

I'm also too angry/hot tempered/emotionally unstable to be president. You see how foaming at the mouth I get when someone disagrees with my theory on a 30 year-old cold case from UM?

Now imagine me being insulted by Korea? I shouldn't be in charge of others lives. No good. ;)

What about President of the SCA? :D

I'm also too angry/hot tempered/emotionally unstable to be president.

That doesn't matter these days :)

Ohhh.........

What about President of the SCA? :D

Queen Hilary will destroy me. I mustn't upset her.

That doesn't matter these days :)

Ohhh.........

:lol: Touche

Unpopular: Lost Love segments are the ****.

There are some folks here who feel that way. We're small in number but we exist.

I don’t know if it’s unpopular, but I think Rochelle Robinson and Michael Johnston were NOT killed because of ties to Dungeons and Dragons...

I don’t know if it’s unpopular, but I think Rochelle Robinson and Michael Johnston were NOT killed because of ties to Dungeons and Dragons...

I HATE the segments that focus on the occult, D&D, etc to try to draw up some conspiracy. Granted they're the most entertaining, but they're distracting from the real killer with fluff.

"WooooOo they were playing PokemanzTheGathering the night they were killed. Both were members of the occult as they played some nerdy board game in their basement and liked music society doesn't approve of. Someone summoned a large satanic rat to kill the couple. Please help us identify the magical sorcerer who would summon such a thing"

SCA President Hillary. Boom. Mystery solved.

SCA President Hillary. Boom. Mystery solved.

Only occult activity m'dearest of the manor is guilty of is casting a love spell upon yours truly. And it worked.

Unpopular: Lost Love segments are the ****.

Absolutely agree. Nothing takes the edge off of multiple murder stories and the stink off of UFO/ghost stories like a feelgood reunion in my book.

I HATE the segments that focus on the occult, D&D, etc to try to draw up some conspiracy. Granted they're the most entertaining, but they're distracting from the real killer with fluff.

"WooooOo they were playing PokemanzTheGathering the night they were killed. Both were members of the occult as they played some nerdy board game in their basement and liked music society doesn't approve of. Someone summoned a large satanic rat to kill the couple. Please help us identify the magical sorcerer who would summon such a thing"

This is actually fascinating to me. I always thought UM's attitude towards these types of activities was reflective of society's general attitude at the time. It reminds me when a friend invited me to his evangelical church when I was in 5th grade. They showed us propaganda films about how Satan had subversively taken over American society, citing heavy metal music, animal sacrifices, D&D, etc. The irony was not lost on me, even then, that this church made far more references to Satan than Jesus.

I'd love to see a good documentary film that focused on the "Satanic Panic" as a subject, there's a wealth of footage that could be used including UM segments like this one and the church propaganda films I mentioned. I haven't come across anything yet

This is actually fascinating to me. I always thought UM's attitude towards these types of activities was reflective of society's general attitude at the time. It reminds me when a friend invited me to his evangelical church when I was in 5th grade. They showed us propaganda films about how Satan had subversively taken over American society, citing heavy metal music, animal sacrifices, D&D, etc. The irony was not lost on me, even then, that this church made far more references to Satan than Jesus.

I'd love to see a good documentary film that focused on the "Satanic Panic" as a subject, there's a wealth of footage that could be used including UM segments like this one and the church propaganda films I mentioned. I haven't come across anything yet

That's nuts about the church. When I was forced to go to church as a kid we were told that Pokemon were evil and that we should give our money to them instead. I grew up in the 90's so the satanic panic was over, but Pokemon made the pastor's angry because money was going to that instead of them. They really tried to hammer home how evil and brainwashing that cartoon was.

And I agree about the documentary. That would be super entertaining. There's a lot of "Satanic Panic" warning videos on YT.

I don’t know if it’s unpopular, but I think Rochelle Robinson and Michael Johnston were NOT killed because of ties to Dungeons and Dragons...

Are you sure? Maybe they rolled a 1.


I absolutely agree that it wasn't about D&D. Total Satanic Panic tangent.

I don’t know if it’s unpopular, but I think Rochelle Robinson and Michael Johnston were NOT killed because of ties to Dungeons and Dragons...

I agree, although I think it was "Magic, The Gathering" that they were playing. Unfortunately, most of the segment was devoted to that and Nancy Myer's "vision" of the murders. IMO the killer was most likely the guy that was stalking Rochelle in the weeks prior to the murders. I thought that was a pretty creepy part of the segment, that the guy would come into her work (at a fast food restaurant) and just stare at her for awhile. She also believed that he was following her to and from work. :eek:

An article I found also mentioned the stalker; it noted that Rochelle had actually had lunch with him once and he wouldn't leave her alone after that. However, no one knows who he was.

Only occult activity m'dearest of the manor is guilty of is casting a love spell upon yours truly. And it worked.

You must prove thyself worthy to m'lady's heart

223076

Aw! I was missed! Great to be back. Someone's got to claim Kurt Cobain was murdered and Brad Bishop is living on a farm in the Balkans. :)

I'll claim the Cobain one. Even though it's seriously 50/50 for me. As a chronically depressed and often suicidal person, I definitely see where it's VERY likely with him. However...there are other things that do point to him not having killed himself. One thing that I think was made too much of, though, is the amount of heroin in his system. "Three times the amount required to kill a non-addict" or whatever. Uh....he WAS an addict. And you grow a tolerance. So...that doesn't mean jack s***.

When you were at the multinational corporation, did you flip burgers or man the drive thru? Or did you greet people and hand out stickers to kids? McDonalds and Walmart are both multinational corporations. Keep trying to tell us how important you are, though, your overcompensation is amusing. A person's job is no measure of their worth, at least not to people who aren't shallow.

He neglected to tell you that this is the logo of his multinational corporation. :lol:

I hear they're supposed to be at the Catalina Wine Mixer, this year.

“It’s the f*****g Catalina Wine-Mixer!”

One of my favorites. I literally just watched it while on an airplane last week.

“It’s the f*****g Catalina Wine-Mixer!”

That reference was for you, CRicci! Since you're our housemother, here :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Since you're our housemother, here :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Best fam ever. <3 <3 <3

Best fam ever. <3 <3 <3

JUST STAY OUT OF MY ROOM, MEG! :mad:

JUST STAY OUT OF MY ROOM, MEG! :mad:

BELL IS PRACTICING MAKING OUT WITH HIS PILLOW AGAIN! **runs away down the hall**

I agree, although I think it was "Magic, The Gathering" that they were playing. Unfortunately, most of the segment was devoted to that and Nancy Myer's "vision" of the murders. IMO the killer was most likely the guy that was stalking Rochelle in the weeks prior to the murders. I thought that was a pretty creepy part of the segment, that the guy would come into her work (at a fast food restaurant) and just stare at her for awhile. She also believed that he was following her to and from work. :eek:

An article I found also mentioned the stalker; it noted that Rochelle had actually had lunch with him once and he wouldn't leave her alone after that. However, no one knows who he was.
This is how I've always felt, too. Besides the fact that Nancy Meyer is a proclaimed psychic rather than having any evidence to support her theories, her "version" made little sense to me. The murders were brutal, but arguably, the killer took their time on Rochelle and Michael was murdered quicker. I strongly believe Rochelle was the target, hence why she was found farther away from the car. If Michael was the prime target, why take Rochelle farther away from the car instead of him?

I'm wondering if she was sexually assaulted? This isn't mentioned in the segment, but it wouldn't surprise me. Obviously, LE has other reasons to believe she was the target and I'm sure not all of that information has been released. I was always irritated this segment focused on the occult, when there is pretty much no evidence this had anything to do with the magic games they were playing.

It's unfortunate that the identity of the stalker has never been uncovered.

:happyface i have dual citizenship. I went to work for a multinational corporation after college. Making far more money than a cop would. More money than some lawyer in Montana as well form that matter. I'm the one living in Lake Forest. Not you. Your notion that id flunk any exam is as laughable as you thinking your an investigator because you're a lawyer. But feel free to think whatever you like. You're the house mom of some weird, screwball high school clique that operates on this forum. It's pathetic. Any person in the past on this forum that has challenged this status quo gets bullied by the same people in your clique. Good luck trying to bully me. You disingenuous second rate "attorney". But not to worry. I'm done with this board and your dumb #$@% ass. Feel free to stop by my office in Chicago anytime. I always have a round in the chamber for people that want to pull the tough guy act on me. I guess I get that from my uncle, Patrick Nee. I named my son after him.

You had opportunity for a subtle clever elevating reply, and you come up with this? :lol:

Sorry, but that's the difference between rare ability and dullard.

Re a late sentence in that mess...as I mentioned several months ago, I don't have any respect for someone who owns a gun.

I did feel a bit left out when I noted page after page with nothing but insults. Damn.

BELL IS PRACTICING MAKING OUT WITH HIS PILLOW AGAIN! **runs away down the hall**

I TOLD YOU TO STAY OUT OF MY ROOM! *slams door*

Unpopular opinion: The final segment of the Beale Cipher decodes to "Be Sure to Drink Your Ovaltine."

Unpopular opinion: The final segment of the Beale Cipher decodes to "Be Sure to Drink Your Ovaltine."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I hope 'em good luck!

Best fam ever. <3 <3 <3

I rather enjoy this merry band of misfits, even those that lurk and don't say much. You know who you guys are. Some of you play Xbox Live and happen to stumble into a room with me accidentally. :)

And Awsi, our resident statistician, you should be happy that you weren't included in the mud-slinging. :) Kudos to you that just rolled your eyes and scrolled down.

Back to the fun stuff.

Back to the fun stuff.

Omg— ANOTHER favorite of mine! Get out of my head, dude!

Some of you play Xbox Live and happen to stumble into a room with me accidentally. :)

:wave:

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!

Awsi Dooger stole my Robert Stack pillowcase!

Some of you play Xbox Live and happen to stumble into a room with me accidentally. :)

Some Xbox Live sounds pretty appealing right now.

Unpopular opinion: In the Mann haunting segment, when Linda becomes "possessed" into rough sex, she was not possessed. She wanted to try to spice things up and get a little kinky, but saw that Alan got freaked out. So she "had no memory of it" so that he wouldn't realize she had some kink to her. She's the shy, quiet type...and....how shall I phrase this? I know what we're like. :lol: :lol: :lol:

:wave:

I love it, but you’re not the only one!! He’s a total lurker and I’m calling him out...

Unpopular opinion: In the Mann haunting segment, when Linda becomes "possessed" into rough sex, she was not possessed. She wanted to try to spice things up and get a little kinky, but saw that Alan got freaked out. So she "had no memory of it" so that he wouldn't realize she had some kink to her. She's the shy, quiet type...and....how shall I phrase this? I know what we're like. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Everything about that segment screamed fraud, including her marrying that guy.

Everything about that segment screamed fraud, including her marrying that guy.

I never understood why the show felt it necessary to mention that Linda was only 16 when she and Alan married. Especially since I have a feeling that Alan was WAY older than her.

I never understood why the show felt it necessary to mention that Linda was only 16 when she and Alan married. Especially since I have a feeling that Alan was WAY older than her.

They also mentioned in the Laura Burbank segment that David Harry Fisher was married to a 16 year old girl. Although that may have been another reason to bring up his obsession with underage girls.

Unpopular opinion: In the Mann haunting segment, when Linda becomes "possessed" into rough sex, she was not possessed. She wanted to try to spice things up and get a little kinky, but saw that Alan got freaked out. So she "had no memory of it" so that he wouldn't realize she had some kink to her. She's the shy, quiet type...and....how shall I phrase this? I know what we're like. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Whoa, that's a pretty bold opinion there! Next thing you're going to tell me is that Ed Walters wasn't 100 % on the up-and-up :crazy:

Whoa, that's a pretty bold opinion there! Next thing you're going to tell me is that Ed Walters wasn't 100 % on the up-and-up :crazy:

I'll also tell you that Sylvia Browne may not have actually been a psychic. :lol:

In most cases where police departments and their investigations seem either corrupt and/or lazy, I tend to think that more often than not this is viewed with a modern lens of how a routine investigation would go today. Back during UM's heyday, things were different, and there were different laws and procedures in place (waiting to file a missing persons report, no autopsy being required for suspected suicide victims, etc.) that seem outlandish in today's society.

In most cases where police departments and their investigations seem either corrupt and/or lazy, I tend to think that more often than not this is viewed with a modern lens of how a routine investigation would go today. Back during UM's heyday, things were different, and there were different laws and procedures in place (waiting to file a missing persons report, no autopsy being required for suspected suicide victims, etc.) that seem outlandish in today's society.

Good point. We also have to keep in mind that many cases occured in jurisdictions that aren’t used to complex murder investigations. Think of how many times these were in small towns or areas where they just didn’t have the training, resources, or technology to preserve crime scenes and properly investigate. I think lack of experience with murders, missing people, etc. also causes investigators to jump to conclusions and assume things that may not be.

That’s not an excuse for shoddy police work but it is a reality for many of the old UM cases as you said. It sickens me to think how the cases of missing children were treated for so long. They were often presumed to be runaways or police waited to take action. If we had more immediate action and AMBER alerts years ago, maybe more kids would have been recovered.

That some times things just are what they are

True, but that's the kind of thing a person (such as Diane) should just keep to themselves. Can you imagine if Jenny was watching and heard things like 'Well, your attackers will never be caught' and 'You have no reason to live because your life is over.' It's not exactly comforting or reassuring.

Fair enough. I can get behind that.

Even though I believe Georgia Rudolph is completely full of it, I'm still a big fan of her segment because from a production standpoint, it's one of the show's most well-made segments.

That man didn't actually have Jonathan.

That man didn't actually have Jonathan.

http://gif-finder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Kevin-Malone-Laugh.gif

Even though I believe Georgia Rudolph is completely full of it, I'm still a big fan of her segment because from a production standpoint, it's one of the show's most well-made segments.

I totally agree. This was a truly stunning segment.

It does make you appreciate the lengths they went to, especially during the early years, to make quality segments. Having period props, cars, costumes, etc. definitely made the show more fun to watch and made the stories more interesting. Whether it was the 1800s, 40s, 60s, 70s, whatever -- they did a great job in that regard during the show's early run.

Even though I believe Georgia Rudolph is completely full of it, I'm still a big fan of her segment because from a production standpoint, it's one of the show's most well-made segments.

I wonder if she lied from the beginning? My guess is the only true part of the story is that she had dreams in an early 1900s setting, which is pretty unremarkable by itself, so she embellished her story more and more as people started to take an interest. At that point, the whole thing likely took on a life of its own, and she decided to double down (finding a town, grave, pictures, etc. for her "past life").

Not at all unlike an author doing research to create characters and settings for a new novel.

In spite of the many criticisms of the 'lighter' segments like the magic rock and fertility statues, I think they had a valuable place in the show to provide contrast from all the crimes and negative, scary segments. IMO, this was what set the show apart from America's Most Wanted. I am really surprised to see how little discussion there are about more positive stories like Teryn Hedlund. Having not been as lucky and losing a baby at birth this still appeals to me as a heartwarming story and would love to know what exactly caused this to happen to her.

I totally agree. This was a truly stunning segment.

It does make you appreciate the lengths they went to, especially during the early years, to make quality segments. Having period props, cars, costumes, etc. definitely made the show more fun to watch and made the stories more interesting. Whether it was the 1800s, 40s, 60s, 70s, whatever -- they did a great job in that regard during the show's early run.

It's true, I hadn't seen many of those older Lost Loves segments for years until I re-watched them on Prime and I've always been impressed with their production values on the stories which took place several decades earlier, such as the Great Depression and World War II.

I wonder if she lied from the beginning? My guess is the only true part of the story is that she had dreams in an early 1900s setting, which is pretty unremarkable by itself, so she embellished her story more and more as people started to take an interest. At that point, the whole thing likely took on a life of its own, and she decided to double down (finding a town, grave, pictures, etc. for her "past life").

Not at all unlike an author doing research to create characters and settings for a new novel.

I don't know if you ever saw her obituary, but it described her as a lover of "practical jokes."

Ahhh, found it...

http://www.newsandsentinel.com/obituaries/2013/02/georgia-ann-smith-rudolph/

I don't know if you ever saw her obituary, but it described her as a lover of "practical jokes."

Ahhh, found it...

http://www.newsandsentinel.com/obituaries/2013/02/georgia-ann-smith-rudolph/

Thanks for sharing. :lol: I almost want to re-watch the segment with that in mind. Perhaps that's also true of the guy who came forward as her former lover in a past life (that phrase seems so ridiculous as I type it)

She certainly got the attention she wanted.

I'm going to laugh my ass off when Georgia Rudolph reincarnates as one of your kids. :p :lol: :lol: :lol:

These aren't unpopular anymore, but for a long time I had two of them:

1. Mike Reimer was a victim, not a murderer, and never left the woods - pretty much totally vindicated.
2. Dub Wackerhagen and son were both victims, and Dub was completely innocent. The police now believe this. The motive that the cops/family try to give him in the segment always seemed incredibly weak to me.

Looks like you were correct on both theories based on new evidence that came out in Dub and Chance case. Mike Reimer was found murdered in the woods so you definitely got that one right.

Unpopular Opinion: I actually like the magic rock segment. Not because I believe in the rock, but because it's a lighthearted segment and a refreshing break from the darker segments on the show.

I believe in the magic rock.

I believe in the magic rock.

Consider the source...:p

I believe in the magic rock.

I believe in Harvey Dent.

I am a little disappointed that no one has ventured to the magic rock and blogged about it - if not for the magic, at the least for the novelty/nostalgia of it.

A quick look through Google images will only yield a grainy screenshot of it with the Lifetime watermark.

I am a little disappointed that no one has ventured to the magic rock and blogged about it - if not for the magic, at the least for the novelty/nostalgia of it.

A quick look through Google images will only yield a grainy screenshot of it with the Lifetime watermark.

There was a thread on here some years back where there was some debate about the location of the rock and whether it was still there. I think one person was pretty deadest on finding it, but I don't recall if they were successful.

This might go along the lines of unpopular theory than opinion, but is it possible Robert Duerst is the I-70 killer? He's almost a dead ringer for the police sketch, his physical description matches (both perp and durst are described in the 5'8", 5'9" range, I think), duerst traveled frequently and randomly, and his whereabouts aren't verified for the time period of the murders. Not to mention that duerst motives varied in the murders he's accused of and he's not the most mentally stable, obviously. IDK if I can commit to it as an opinion, but very interesting how certain things line up.

I actually like the 1995 theme.

This might go along the lines of unpopular theory than opinion, but is it possible Robert Duerst is the I-70 killer? He's almost a dead ringer for the police sketch, his physical description matches (both perp and durst are described in the 5'8", 5'9" range, I think), duerst traveled frequently and randomly, and his whereabouts aren't verified for the time period of the murders. Not to mention that duerst motives varied in the murders he's accused of and he's not the most mentally stable, obviously. IDK if I can commit to it as an opinion, but very interesting how certain things line up.

Interesting.

How to derail any intelligent UM-related discussion = claim a key victim or witness just made **** up

Not to mention, all of the victims, with the exception of the male victim who may have been mistaken for a woman due to his long hair, were petite woman with long dark hair just like his missing wife. And the same caliber weapon was used, a .22, was used in those and the Morris Black murder. On the surface, unless his whereabouts for around the dates of the murders can be proven it's quite erie how everything lines up.

I'm not sure this is unpopular because I don't think I've ever paid any attention to whether a thread has ever been created or popped up about it, but I think the Beale ciphers amount to a nineteenth-century troll effort and that the treasure simply does not exist.

I believe that the Jim Boumgarden did in fact have a twin brother.

I believe that the Jim Boumgarden did in fact have a twin brother.

People don't?

People don't?

I always believed he had a twin, too. Too many people seeing his twin who, seemingly, had no motive for fame or money.

I believe that the Jim Boumgarden did in fact have a twin brother.

I didn't realize this was a controversial view....I share this viewpoint.

People don't?

There was an entire thread devoted to how he was lying, and that he was just a bored dude looking to spice up his life by playing this little game.

There was an entire thread devoted to how he was lying, and that he was just a bored dude looking to spice up his life by playing this little game.

He ain't have no twin. One of the funniest segments out there.

BUT WHO WAS TWIN????!!!!!!!111111

BUT WHO WAS TWIN????!!!!!!!111111

My money is on Danny DeVito.

There was an entire thread devoted to how he was lying, and that he was just a bored dude looking to spice up his life by playing this little game.

It is very hard to believe that he could have an identical twin who just happened to end up in the same area as him, who was seen sporadically over a period of time yet nobody bothered to ask his name when he looked confused, or heard his name at the baseball game etc. The biggest problem of all is that on a show that aired nationwide not one person came forward to say yeah I know that guy & his name is, not to be unkind but Jim was pretty unique looking & a face like his would stick in the memory. It was either some guy who vaguely resembled him, that Jim was just being an ass or he & his family cooked it up for publicity.

John Grundhofer staged his whole kidnapping. His story never sounded right and I just find it difficult to believe that a legit kidnapper would be so stupid and unprepared.

John Grundhofer staged his whole kidnapping. His story never sounded right and I just find it difficult to believe that a legit kidnapper would be so stupid and unprepared.

I can't say that finding that out would surprise me, honestly.

I second Jim Boumgarden having a twin, but count me in that camp that thinks there's no way John Grundhofer could've made up THAT story. I mean, "This is Carl and you are coming with me"?! :lol:

I have an unpopular opinion I always felt I'd be flamed over if I mentioned it because she's held in such high esteem on the board: I've always been skeptical of Norman Ladner's mother's story about the stranger who suggested to her to drop the investigation into her son's death.

I second Jim Boumgarden having a twin, but count me in that camp that thinks there's no way John Grundhofer could've made up THAT story. I mean, "This is Carl and you are coming with me"?! :lol:

I have an unpopular opinion I always felt I'd be flamed over if I mentioned it because she's held in such high esteem on the board: I've always been skeptical of Norman Ladner's mother's story about the stranger who suggested to her to drop the investigation into her son's death.

I always felt bad for that guy, but at the same time I can't help but laugh when I see that part of the segment. I probably would not be laughing if my twin did that and I were standing behind a glass wall!


for the Norman Ladner comment. You have been flamed! (just joking) I feel bad for the parents, but I always have such a hard time watching their interviews in that segment. maybe you are on to something there.

I have an unpopular opinion I always felt I'd be flamed over if I mentioned it because she's held in such high esteem on the board: I've always been skeptical of Norman Ladner's mother's story about the stranger who suggested to her to drop the investigation into her son's death.

Assuming the story is even true, I think it is possible she misinterpreted what the man said and used it to inflate the murder theory. Or, the guy could have just been some crackpot who overheard part of the conversation and decided to insert himself in the scenario for whatever reason.

To believe the story, you pretty much have to believe that either

1. The conspiracy to cover up Ladner's death was so far reaching that those involved in the coverup planned to have this guy at the funeral home to deliver this message.

or

2. That someone with knowledge of the conspiracy and true circumstances of Ladner's death just happened to be passing through and used the opportunity to relay the message.

Either way it all seems pretty far fetched to me.

I have an unpopular opinion I always felt I'd be flamed over if I mentioned it because she's held in such high esteem on the board: I've always been skeptical of Norman Ladner's mother's story about the stranger who suggested to her to drop the investigation into her son's death.

I used to believe it wholeheartedly, but I was young and, like most viewers young and old, tended to automatically err on the side of the grieving parent out of sympathy.

As I've gotten older and my reasoning skills matured (not to mention joining this board and doing research on various cases), I realized that just because an interviewee on the show has suffered the tragic loss of a loved one, that doesn't automatically make their account of what happened above reproach. And it certainly doesn't mean that they can't fudge the facts, either intentionally or unintentionally, to fit their preferred narrative of how their relative died.

I now think that the she could have misinterpreted the man's message. He may have been trying to give her a pep talk (i.e., encouraging her to be strong for her other children) and because she was having doubts as to how Norman died, took it as a veiled threat to stop investigating.

There's also a part of me that kind of wonders whether it even happened at all. According to her, this man was a total stranger who knew her by name and just randomly told her she'd never find out what happened to her son and to just drop the investigation for the safety of her family. Did anyone else know this man or witness this alleged exchange? Just seems like "fluff" added to the story later to bolster her theory.

I used to believe it wholeheartedly, but I was young and, like most viewers young and old, tended to automatically err on the side of the grieving parent out of sympathy.

As I've gotten older and my reasoning skills matured (not to mention joining this board and doing research on various cases), I realized that just because an interviewee on the show has suffered the tragic loss of a loved one, that doesn't automatically make their account of what happened above reproach. And it certainly doesn't mean that they can't fudge the facts, either intentionally or unintentionally, to fit their preferred narrative of how their relative died.

I now think that the she could have misinterpreted the man's message. He may have been trying to give her a pep talk (i.e., encouraging her to be strong for her other children) and because she was having doubts as to how Norman died, took it as a veiled threat to stop investigating.

There's also a part of me that kind of wonders whether it even happened at all. According to her, this man was a total stranger who knew her by name and just randomly told her she'd never find out what happened to her son and to just drop the investigation for the safety of her family. Did anyone else know this man or witness this alleged exchange? Just seems like "fluff" added to the story later to bolster her theory.

Do you think Norman was murdered or was it a suicide?

Do you think Norman was murdered or was it a suicide?

I'm actually on the fence entirely and can't make up my mind. The other part that kind of puzzled me is that when Norman's death was initially ruled an accident, his parents accepted it without question. It was only when the coroner apparently changed his opinion and ruled it a suicide that they began to think it was a murder that was being covered up. I know they said that they didn't get the same bullet back and whatnot, but it just seemed like it was the word "suicide" that set them off.

50 years ago being an attorney actually meant something. Attorneys are a dime a dozen now. I looked into law school after I got my degree in criminal justice. Colossal waste of money. My wife's brother went to law school after being a bartender for 5 years. He is a assistant states attorney in New Orleans now. I made more money working for a moving company 15 years ago then he makes rite now. But hey, ask any attorney and they'll tell you they're a genius. :lol:

Dude, I'm sorry you're so miserable that you feel the need to be p***k to everyone to show how superior you are, but you're not. I'm seeing you're banned, which is good. If you are using a new account to read this board, go find a constructive hobby and let the rest of us go back to collaborating and debating constructively. Thank you.

:happyface i have dual citizenship. I went to work for a multinational corporation after college. Making far more money than a cop would. More money than some lawyer in Montana as well form that matter. I'm the one living in Lake Forest. Not you. Your notion that id flunk any exam is as laughable as you thinking your an investigator because you're a lawyer. But feel free to think whatever you like. You're the house mom of some weird, screwball high school clique that operates on this forum. It's pathetic. Any person in the past on this forum that has challenged this status quo gets bullied by the same people in your clique. Good luck trying to bully me. You disingenuous second rate "attorney". But not to worry. I'm done with this board and your dumb #$@% ass. Feel free to stop by my office in Chicago anytime. I always have a round in the chamber for people that want to pull the tough guy act on me. I guess I get that from my uncle, Patrick Nee. I named my son after him.


It's sad when others have to brag about their accomplishments to the point of ripping on others.
Shows how insecure they are about themselves.

I like that everyone on here has different backgrounds because they introduce sides that one may not have considered otherwise.

I don’t know if it’s unpopular, but I think Rochelle Robinson and Michael Johnston were NOT killed because of ties to Dungeons and Dragons...


I agree. Unless they just happened to piss someone off who was connected, D & D didn't kill them.

:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:Unpopular opinion: The final segment of the Beale Cipher decodes to "Be Sure to Drink Your Ovaltine."

The police have already ruled on this, but I think Dr. Stanton knew full well who was buried in his back shed on Santa Cruz Island. If he was so meticulous about cataloging and labeling everything around him, he had to have cleaned out that shed at least once in his lifetime and found those remains, if not placed them there himself.

I have an unpopular opinion I always felt I'd be flamed over if I mentioned it because she's held in such high esteem on the board: I've always been skeptical of Norman Ladner's mother's story about the stranger who suggested to her to drop the investigation into her son's death.

I think I've shared this opinion in the "people you didn't like" thread. As I got older and watched the segment more and more, the way she relayed the story (as well as how ridiculous it sounds) made it seem like she was making everything up.

I totally agree. This was a truly stunning segment.

It does make you appreciate the lengths they went to, especially during the early years, to make quality segments. Having period props, cars, costumes, etc. definitely made the show more fun to watch and made the stories more interesting. Whether it was the 1800s, 40s, 60s, 70s, whatever -- they did a great job in that regard during the show's early run.

Hear hear...The last seasons of UM are probably a little underrated - they do contain plenty of genuinely interesting cases and the producers start dispensing with a lot of the psychics/ghosts/UFOs/buried treasure silliness to focus more on unsolved crimes, but even a casual viewer cannot help but notice the cheap production values (shot on videotape, small casts, anonymous locations) compared to the first few seasons; where it was hardly uncommon to have dozens of extras in period costume, beautifully lit sets, outdoor scenes shot on the actual location where events occurred, specially arranged musical scores etc.

Penny Cayedito knew who took Anthonette and allowed it to happen. She was out with "friends" at a bar until midnight, and then allegedly people were in and out of the house throughout the early morning hours. There is speculation that she was paid for Anthonette (and that she got a brand new car within weeks of her disappearance) and I just think where there is smoke, there is fire. She also failed a polygraph regarding Anthonette's disappearance.

Penny Cayedito knew who took Anthonette and allowed it to happen. She was out with "friends" at a bar until midnight, and then allegedly people were in and out of the house throughout the early morning hours. There is speculation that she was paid for Anthonette (and that she got a brand new car within weeks of her disappearance) and I just think where there is smoke, there is fire. She also failed a polygraph regarding Anthonette's disappearance.

I agree completely. Friends don't just "visit" at three in the morning unless it's for a very specific (and presumably illegal) reason.

And I've always strongly suspected that Penny put her other daughter Wendy up to telling that story about Uncle Joe kidnapping Anthonette at the door. I understand that children's logic is often quite different than that of an adult, but this story that she kept her mouth shut for five years for fear of getting in trouble with Mommy always set off my B.S. alarm. Wendy, IIRC, said in an interview years later that she not only doesn't remember the Uncle Joe thing ever happening (and granted, she was five), but she doesn't really even remember telling the police five years later that it had! I think she likely does remember but is now backtracking so it won't come out that "Mom made me say it".

I agree completely. Friends don't just "visit" at three in the morning unless it's for a very specific (and presumably illegal) reason.

And I've always strongly suspected that Penny put her other daughter Wendy up to telling that story about Uncle Joe kidnapping Anthonette at the door. I understand that children's logic is often quite different than that of an adult, but this story that she kept her mouth shut for five years for fear of getting in trouble with Mommy always set off my B.S. alarm. Wendy, IIRC, said in an interview years later that she not only doesn't remember the Uncle Joe thing ever happening (and granted, she was five), but she doesn't really even remember telling the police five years later that it had! I think she likely does remember but is now backtracking so it won't come out that "Mom made me say it".

Was this the little girl who called someone pleading for help then was abruptly cut off? I think she was also sighted at a Diner or something?

Was this the little girl who called someone pleading for help then was abruptly cut off? I think she was also sighted at a Diner or something?

Yes, that's her. She was allegedly seen at a Nevada diner in 1990 (she would have been 14) with an unknown couple and apparently left a note on the napkin telling the waitress to call the police.

I always kind of wondered if Penny made one of her other daughters make the 911 call.

Yes, that's her. She was allegedly seen at a Nevada diner in 1990 (she would have been 14) with an unknown couple and apparently left a note on the napkin telling the waitress to call the police.

I always kind of wondered if Penny made one of her other daughters make the 911 call.

I don't know if Penny was involved with the phone call, because you could clearly hear a man's voice on the recording. I definitely don't think it was Anthonette though.

Semi-unpopular opinion:

Jeff Oberholtzer and Charles Holden are two men, who before they were cleared, looked much guiltier than Tim McClure.

Semi-unpopular opinion:

Jeff Oberholtzer and Charles Holden are two men, who before they were cleared, looked much guiltier than Tim McClure.

I'll co-sign on that. They weren't unreasonable suspects from the initial outset.

Penny Cayedito knew who took Anthonette and allowed it to happen. She was out with "friends" at a bar until midnight, and then allegedly people were in and out of the house throughout the early morning hours. There is speculation that she was paid for Anthonette (and that she got a brand new car within weeks of her disappearance) and I just think where there is smoke, there is fire. She also failed a polygraph regarding Anthonette's disappearance.

That whole thing about the new car is internet bs. Just something someone made up and got repeated until the point where it is accepted fact when it is not. Sort of like those 3 women allegedly buried under the parking garage, absolutely no evidence just an internet positing.

That said, I am sure the mother knew more about what happened than she let on. And the sighting wasn't her. Stuff like that NEVER is the same person. Phone call was probably bogus as well, but more likely to be real, if only slightly.

That whole thing about the new car is internet bs. Just something someone made up and got repeated until the point where it is accepted fact when it is not. Sort of like those 3 women allegedly buried under the parking garage, absolutely no evidence just an internet positing.

That said, I am sure the mother knew more about what happened than she let on. And the sighting wasn't her. Stuff like that NEVER is the same person. Phone call was probably bogus as well, but more likely to be real, if only slightly.

I said it was speculation. What isn't speculation is that she was out at a bar all night, multiple neighbors said she had people coming and going into her house at all hours of the night, and that she let her daughters stay up until 3 in the morning. Within 4 hours, she was gone. The only confirmed adult present during those 4 hours was Penny.

Semi-unpopular opinion:

Jeff Oberholtzer and Charles Holden are two men, who before they were cleared, looked much guiltier than Tim McClure.

I agree. The Forensic Files episode shows Charles Holden's initial interrogation and you can understand how, at the time, the police weren't having any of his story.

Oberholtzer did look guilty at the outset, but he passed a polygraph for whatever that's worth. I don't know why, but Tim McClure flunked the test. (That guy sure did say "I don't know why" a lot.)

I will say both Holden and Oberholtzer came across much much better than Tim McClure in their UM interviews.

Somebody's Pizza is a great name for a restaurant.

j/k it's terrible.

Somebody's Pizza is a great name for a restaurant.

j/k it's terrible.

:lol:

Seriously though, it makes me lose my appetite. I would be happy if nickel beers were on the table, however. ;)

I don't think I've ever felt worse for a wrongly suspected killer than Charles Holden. I can't imagine the pain of losing a parent, let alone being accused of killing a parent (or anyone, but especially a parent). Like Holden, I'm close to my mom. That case has stuck with me over the years. Was very relieved to see they caught the POS who did it.

:lol:

I would be happy if nickel beers were on the table, however. ;)

Hell yeah! :cheers:

Although I doubt I'll ever be able to serve on the Supreme Court, I do love me some beer. That was mind blowing to me when I first heard about that in the segment (or maybe it was an article). How did that place turn any profit by doing that?

I don't think I've ever felt worse for a wrongly suspected killer than Charles Holden. I can't imagine the pain of losing a parent, let alone being accused of killing a parent (or anyone, but especially a parent). Like Holden, I'm close to my mom. That case has stuck with me over the years. Was very relieved to see they caught the POS who did it.

I hope more law enforcement agencies study this case as it is the perfect example of how the simplest explaination is not necessarily the best. The scary thing is if it went to trial there is a very strong chance he would have been found guilty. My mother is terminally ill with an extremely rare condition that most doctors have never heard of. I often think what would happen if I found her lifeless body during a visit: would I be accused of poisoning her if not for her diagnosis?

Not really sure how unpopular it is, but I think Danny Casolaro committed suicide. I think Michael Riconosciuto fed him a steady diet of bull and it set Casolaro on a course of chasing conspiracy theory and conjecture, and the ensuing stress caught up to him in the worst way.

That the Butch Cassidy/Sundance Kid segment is one of the weakest on the show. I realize there were several similar segments (like Billy the Kid/Anastasia/John Wilkes Booth), but to me this one seemed the most ridiculous. They mention one guy who claimed to be Butch Cassidy (no evidence, just verbally) and then for the Sundance Kid they end the segment saying, "many believe he, too, died of old age." Okay...but why? Did you run out of time to mention the reason some people are convinced? :lol: This one isn't Men in Black segment bad, but it's still not one of my favorites.

That the Butch Cassidy/Sundance Kid segment is one of the weakest on the show. I realize there were several similar segments (like Billy the Kid/Anastasia/John Wilkes Booth), but to me this one seemed the most ridiculous. They mention one guy who claimed to be Butch Cassidy (no evidence, just verbally) and then for the Sundance Kid they end the segment saying, "many believe he, too, died of old age." Okay...but why? Did you run out of time to mention the reason some people are convinced? :lol: This one isn't Men in Black segment bad, but it's still not one of my favorites.

I love anything related to the Wild West, so that segment had me intrigued for years. I even bought a book which went deeper than the segment about how many people believed William Phillips was indeed Butch Cassidy. The author that wrote the book did a 180 when he found (https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700171369/Butch-Cassidy-imposter-exposed.html) a mugshot of a man referenced in Phillips manuscript as William Wilcox, whom he claimed served time in prison with Butch Cassidy. When you compare Wilcox to Philips, there's no doubt they are the same person, and that's the reason why Phillips was claiming to be Butch Cassidy.

I love anything related to the Wild West, so that segment had me intrigued for years. I even bought a book which went deeper than the segment about how many people believed William Phillips was indeed Butch Cassidy. The author that wrote the book did a 180 when he found (https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700171369/Butch-Cassidy-imposter-exposed.html) a mugshot of a man referenced in Phillips manuscript as William Wilcox, whom he claimed served time in prison with Butch Cassidy. When you compare Wilcox to Philips, there's no doubt they are the same person, and that's the reason why Phillips was claiming to be Butch Cassidy.
I enjoy the productions in the western segments. They really capture the geographical mystique of the Western USA. these have a nostalgia to them that has held up well for me....moreso than say the paranormal segments that I was drawn to when I was a kid. I also like other historical segments because they are mysterious to me even when they seem unbelievable.

I love anything related to the Wild West, so that segment had me intrigued for years. I even bought a book which went deeper than the segment about how many people believed William Phillips was indeed Butch Cassidy. The author that wrote the book did a 180 when he found (https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700171369/Butch-Cassidy-imposter-exposed.html) a mugshot of a man referenced in Phillips manuscript as William Wilcox, whom he claimed served time in prison with Butch Cassidy. When you compare Wilcox to Philips, there's no doubt they are the same person, and that's the reason why Phillips was claiming to be Butch Cassidy.

Thanks for the article! It makes me wish the segment had been longer. As I mentioned before, it ended really abruptly and left me wanting to know more about why people were convinced about Phillips/The Sundance Kid. I think the other examples I mentioned were all longer segments that really showed why Anna Anderson/Brushy Bill/St. Helen had believers (regardless of the validity of their claims). I didn't think this one really showed much, which is too bad. Would you recommend reading the book?

Thanks for the article! It makes me wish the segment had been longer. As I mentioned before, it ended really abruptly and left me wanting to know more about why people were convinced about Phillips/The Sundance Kid. I think the other examples I mentioned were all longer segments that really showed why Anna Anderson/Brushy Bill/St. Helen had believers (regardless of the validity of their claims). I didn't think this one really showed much, which is too bad. Would you recommend reading the book?

Eh, it wasn't that convincing of a book. More or less people who knew Cassidy were convinced that he was Phillips, and a lot of anecdotal things are mentioned throughout. It pretty much ignores the biggest elephant in the room: if Phillips was indeed Cassidy, how did he make it out of South America, and what the hell happened to the Sundance Kid? It wasn't a very convincing book.

Ken Sova lied about searching the ravine the day before Kurts body was found.

Ken Sova lied about searching the ravine the day before Kurts body was found.

Why do you think he lied?