I can't even remember one ever close to being solved at all. They might as well be UFO cases.

EDIT: To be more specific I mean the unexplained deaths and/or disappearances.

Several military related ones that I can think of being solved:

Jim Baczkowski did find Capt. Linda Sharp, the Army Nurse who helped him in Vietnam

Similar one, Jim Meade, a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, found Lt. Karen Stephens.

Carl & Brigitta Dentai found Philip Pelletier, a US soldier who helped them survive in the aftermath of World War Two

Fritz Vincken found one or two of the American soldiers with whom he'd spent Christmas of 1944 with during the Battle of the Bulge

They caught Edward Zakrewski, the US Airman who murdered his wife and kids

Also I believe that they eventually delivered all of the WWII letters found in some lady's attic.

Several military related ones that I can think of being solved:

Jim Baczkowski did find Capt. Linda Sharp, the Army Nurse who helped him in Vietnam

Similar one, Jim Meade, a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, found Lt. Karen Stephens.

Carl & Brigitta Dentai found Philip Pelletier, a US soldier who helped them survive in the aftermath of World War Two

Fritz Vincken found one or two of the American soldiers with whom he'd spent Christmas of 1944 with during the Battle of the Bulge

They caught Edward Zakrewski, the US Airman who murdered his wife and kids

Also I believe that they eventually delivered all of the WWII letters found in some lady's attic.
Good post. A lot of the lost love cases were solved but not all of them. There are still a few that are unsolved including one letter from the WW2 letters segment that is on amazon.

Most of the unexplained death(suicide) ones if not all of them featured are unsolved unless you factor Jeffrey McDonald lol. I think the bombing of captain rogers' wife's van went unsolved as well.

The fate of the S.S. Muskogee was also solved along with finding all of the families of the soldiers that died.

http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/The_Families_of_the_S.S._Muskogee_Crew

I was thinking of lost love cases when I read the original post of this thread. My first thought were cases like the disappearance of Justin Burgwinkel or the fate of Curt Borton where the military has been accused of covering something up.

Chad Langford's case remains unsolved, as does Michael Carmichael and Bill Ray Hargrove's.

There are a couple other ones as well that were not solved, but their names have left me: (a) the story about the hazing, that later became a movie, and one of the prime characters was murdered after interviewing with FedEx, and (b) the story of the military linguist/ cook, who went AWOL, after visiting his girlfriend in California. There's never been any more details.

Chad Langford's case remains unsolved, as does Michael Carmichael and Bill Ray Hargrove's.

There are a couple other ones as well that were not solved, but their names have left me: (a) the story about the hazing, that later became a movie, and one of the prime characters was murdered after interviewing with FedEx, and (b) the story of the military linguist/ cook, who went AWOL, after visiting his girlfriend in California. There's never been any more details.

a) David Cox
b) Justin Burgwinkle

To my knowledge, both are still unsolved.

Thank you and thank you. I'll jot these names down to refresh later.

I'm sorry I meant the unexplained military deaths or disappearances. Not Lost Loves.

I think most consider the case of Robert "Curt" Borton to be solved. He went missing during the Vietnam War. His family was told that he was dead, but they thought they saw him in pictures of American POWs. Years later, his sister thought she saw him several times in Washington D.C., but the government insists he is dead.
After the story aired, there were remains found in Vietnam that were identified as his. (I think DNA testing confirmed it) but his family refuses to accept the remains.
http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Robert_Borton

Another case from Vietnam, the "Baron 52" case, involved a plane that was shot down in Vietnam. Some of the airmen's remains were not found, so their families believed that they were alive. However, after the story aired, remains were found at the site that were identified as some of the missing airmen.
http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Baron_52

Charles Shelton was shot down during Vietnam and was held prisoner of war for several years. The army stated that he had died in a prison, but his wife Marian learned that he may have been seen in Laos after he allegedly died. She searched for the truth for years, but committed suicide in 1990. A few years after the broadcast, the military changed his status to "killed in action" and his children accepted that he was dead, although his remains were never found.
http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Charles_Shelton

a) David Cox
b) Justin Burgwinkle

To my knowledge, both are still unsolved.


I've had a theory for some time that David Cox's murder did have to do with the events surrounding his military service, but not in the same way that others have posited. I don't have any evidence to back this up, but I've always wondered if perhaps his fellow marines who were suing the production company with him either wanted to settle and he was a lone holdout, or they didn't like how outspoken he was being about the things that had really happened and took matters into their own hands to shut him up. Police did think he left home with someone he knew. My thoughts are that they took him into the woods for a discussion that turned violent. These were ex-Marines, so it's probable he (or they if it was more than one of them) were armed even if no violence was planned.

I've had a theory for some time that David Cox's murder did have to do with the events surrounding his military service, but not in the same way that others have posited. I don't have any evidence to back this up, but I've always wondered if perhaps his fellow marines who were suing the production company with him either wanted to settle and he was a lone holdout, or they didn't like how outspoken he was being about the things that had really happened and took matters into their own hands to shut him up. Police did think he left home with someone he knew. My thoughts are that they took him into the woods for a discussion that turned violent. These were ex-Marines, so it's probable he (or they if it was more than one of them) were armed even if no violence was planned.

It's a good theory, and if I recall, similar to one theory on a certain podcast we all know and (should) love. :)

I'm 99% convinced Justin Burgwinkel was suffering from some form of schizophrenia. However, it doesn't explain that strange phone call his girlfriend got, where the caller said "the mission's off." Was it a military mission, a drug mission, a mission to go get Taco Bell? (Dude. I would be enraged if I got my heart set on Taco Bell and someone called off the mission. Just saying.) That's the one part of the disappearance I can't wrap my head around. The rest of the circumstances surrounding Justin clearly point to mental illness.

However, it doesn't explain that strange phone call his girlfriend got, where the caller said "the mission's off." Was it a military mission, a drug mission, a mission to go get Taco Bell? (Dude. I would be enraged if I got my heart set on Taco Bell and someone called off the mission. Just saying.) That's the one part of the disappearance I can't wrap my head around. The rest of the circumstances surrounding Justin clearly point to mental illness.

:rotflmao:
That Taco Bell comment kills me! That was priceless! Yes, when your mind is set on getting some TB, let nothing stand in our way. :lol:

I agree that Justin Burgwinkel was either mentally ill, and/or into drugs and possibly stealing stuff. I think the "cloak and dagger" stuff was just a cover up for illegal activity which was probably selling drugs or stolen goods. Whether it was just an act or whether mental illness played a role, I'm not sure. But I don't believe for a second that he was into any real military secret operations.

I've always felt that a lot of the military segments were deliberately played up to where there would be no solution. It's a shame too, because David Cox, IMO, is the only one presented that I believe was a clear cut murder. Burgwinkel, Langford, Jeffrey Digman, Hargrove & Carmichael, and even Ralph Sigler were all suicides. I think Ray Hickenbotham's case seems weird on the surface, but I get the feeling that a ton of information was either exaggerated or left out to make the segment more mysterious.

:rotflmao:
That Taco Bell comment kills me! That was priceless! Yes, when your mind is set on getting some TB, let nothing stand in our way. :lol:

I agree that Justin Burgwinkel was either mentally ill, and/or into drugs and possibly stealing stuff. I think the "cloak and dagger" stuff was just a cover up for illegal activity which was probably selling drugs or stolen goods. Whether it was just an act or whether mental illness played a role, I'm not sure. But I don't believe for a second that he was into any real military secret operations.

I've always leaned toward the mental illness theory with Justin Burgwinkel. The "shredding paper" his girlfriend witnessed when she tried to see what was in his briefcase is the kind of obsessive tic that can accompany many types of disorders.

I've always leaned toward the mental illness theory with Justin Burgwinkel. The "shredding paper" his girlfriend witnessed when she tried to see what was in his briefcase is the kind of obsessive tic that can accompany many types of disorders.

Exactly. I've known many paranoid schizophrenics to display similar behaviors. They would come to my office with a briefcase (or a manila folder, or a box) of papers that would allegedly exonerate them. But then they would be VERY stingy about what I could/could not see... (and when I say paranoid schizophrenics, this isn't my armchair diagnosis. I'm referring to clients who had seen a counselor and been officially diagnosed.)

The whole thing with Justin kinda reminds me of that scene in "A Beautiful Mind" where you *think* that John Nash is writing all of these mathematical equations... and then it turns out to be just gibberish.

I actually really like the segment about the disappearance of Paul Whipkey, which is one case where I do feel there was a military cover-up of some sort. On the surface, it's possible he could have just walked off into the desert and perished, but I think there's enough suspicious stuff (the sighting of a different man driving his vehicle, the cigarette butts found by his abandoned car even though he didn't smoke) to suggest something shady was going on.

I actually really like the segment about the disappearance of Paul Whipkey, which is one case where I do feel there was a military cover-up of some sort. On the surface, it's possible he could have just walked off into the desert and perished, but I think there's enough suspicious stuff (the sighting of a different man driving his vehicle, the cigarette butts found by his abandoned car even though he didn't smoke) to suggest something shady was going on.

I always thought Whipkey was involved in some sort of government testing that ultimately caused him to have a mental breakdown and eventual death.

Exactly. I've known many paranoid schizophrenics to display similar behaviors. They would come to my office with a briefcase (or a manila folder, or a box) of papers that would allegedly exonerate them. But then they would be VERY stingy about what I could/could not see... (and when I say paranoid schizophrenics, this isn't my armchair diagnosis. I'm referring to clients who had seen a counselor and been officially diagnosed.)

The whole thing with Justin kinda reminds me of that scene in "A Beautiful Mind" where you *think* that John Nash is writing all of these mathematical equations... and then it turns out to be just gibberish.

Yep. I worked in a mental health facility in college. We'd see those behaviors constantly.

Exactly. I've known many paranoid schizophrenics to display similar behaviors. They would come to my office with a briefcase (or a manila folder, or a box) of papers that would allegedly exonerate them. But then they would be VERY stingy about what I could/could not see... (and when I say paranoid schizophrenics, this isn't my armchair diagnosis. I'm referring to clients who had seen a counselor and been officially diagnosed.)

The whole thing with Justin kinda reminds me of that scene in "A Beautiful Mind" where you *think* that John Nash is writing all of these mathematical equations... and then it turns out to be just gibberish.

I just wonder, if he did this to himself, where has he been all this time? Or, if he died, where is his body?

I just wonder, if he did this to himself, where has he been all this time? Or, if he died, where is his body?

I think the most likely scenario is that he's living as a vagrant somewhere and is completely absorbed in his fantasy.

I've had a theory for some time that David Cox's murder did have to do with the events surrounding his military service, but not in the same way that others have posited. I don't have any evidence to back this up, but I've always wondered if perhaps his fellow marines who were suing the production company with him either wanted to settle and he was a lone holdout, or they didn't like how outspoken he was being about the things that had really happened and took matters into their own hands to shut him up. Police did think he left home with someone he knew. My thoughts are that they took him into the woods for a discussion that turned violent. These were ex-Marines, so it's probable he (or they if it was more than one of them) were armed even if no violence was planned.

I could get on with that theory. It seems plausible.

I know little about inter military workings but with the Marines, well a friend served for 8 years in the Marines. I discussed this with him and he said the theory about going into the woods and the talk turning unexpectedly violent is a very plausible one. He had no idea of how much controversy there was behind the making of 'A Few Good Men' and I didn't either before I had seen that segment years ago. However my friend I attended high school with and who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, I felt his was a valid opinion to seek out. About the only inter workings I really know are Air Force as most of the people I went to school with that served in the military served in the Air Force.

Cox though, he did have a weak case to begin with. Suing the filmmakers for 'stealing' his story? If that were the case we wouldn't see many films made. I personally find distasteful what the film makers did but that said, the angle they put it, did in all senses of the word make the film more 'interesting' than what would have happened had the film been exactly off of how it really happened. Guy doesn't die and soldiers plead out rather than are largely acquitted after a huge trial. Just doesn't have that same beat to it. Especially with military films this must be a challenge of how accurate to be. That it either wont be dramatic enough or will be over the top? I can think of Born on the 4th of July and Platoon being a couple of other such films based off of at least in part real experiences.

I've always leaned toward the mental illness theory with Justin Burgwinkel. The "shredding paper" his girlfriend witnessed when she tried to see what was in his briefcase is the kind of obsessive tic that can accompany many types of disorders.

Justin Burgwinkel was 21. He was way too young and inexperienced a soldier to be in or around any sensitive military units back in the early 90s. I believe he liked putting on a show for his gf to get her to think he was involved in classified programs. There was no sinister motive or cover up on the part of the military in this particular case

Justin Burgwinkel was 21. He was way too young and inexperienced a soldier to be in or around any sensitive military units back in the early 90s. I believe he liked putting on a show for his gf to get her to think he was involved in classified programs. There was no sinister motive or cover up on the part of the military in this particular case

He wasn't too young or inexperienced whatsoever. I just think there's little evidence to support the theory he was "involved" in anything other than his known assigned duties.

He wasn't too young or inexperienced whatsoever. I just think there's little evidence to support the theory he was "involved" in anything other than his known assigned duties.

He was 21 and had been busted for shoplifting while on active duty. Had he had any special clearances, they would have been pulled. He was not involved in any compartmentalized programs and certainly wasn't an operator with military intelligence. He was not a combat vet. He was putting on a show for a girl. No conspiracy here. Move along.

He was 21 and had been busted for shoplifting while on active duty. Had he had any special clearances, they would have been pulled. He was not involved in any compartmentalized programs and certainly wasn't an operator with military intelligence. He was not a combat vet. He was putting on a show for a girl. No conspiracy here. Move along.

As an MI officer, I held a TS/SCI within 6 months of commissioning. I was barely 22 years old at that time. Albeit, I was an O and Burgwinkel was a joe in a non-intel MOS, but there are several, several individuals of his rank, age, and years of experience that held--and do hold--higher levels of clearance than I did across the armed forces. In other words, those things wouldn't have barred him from highly classified work.

I just don't think he was doing any. There is no evidence to suggest that he was. I think he was a stressed, confused kid soothing a sorely ailing self-image. In other words, I agree with you.

There are no operators in MI. That term is often a colloquialism for certain 18-series personnel.

I know there are no "operators" officially within army intelligence. There is some debate to who started using that term first. Vietnam Era seals claim they used it first. Beckwith at SFOD claims he came up with the term because they were not allowed to use the term agent. Since the global war on terror it's been a term used a lot more than what it was originally intended for.

Regardless of all that, I believe we are in agreement that poor Justin was nowhere near anything in regards to actual intelligence units or commands.

As an MI officer, I held a TS/SCI within 6 months of commissioning. I was barely 22 years old at that time. Albeit, I was an O and Burgwinkel was a joe in a non-intel MOS, but there are several, several individuals of his rank, age, and years of experience that held--and do hold--higher levels of clearance than I did across the armed forces. In other words, those things wouldn't have barred him from highly classified work.

I just don't think he was doing any. There is no evidence to suggest that he was. I think he was a stressed, confused kid soothing a sorely ailing self-image. In other words, I agree with you.

There are no operators in MI. That term is often a colloquialism for certain 18-series personnel.
good points... it is very difficult...but yes people can go straight into sensitive trust jobs. both my brother and sister went straight into Top Secret positions as enlisted... it is not like a Hollywood script though as far as what people do day to day. and they both have/had very stressful jobs. My brother is deployed constantly and my sister was as well which led her to leave and to do something else.

I think if Justin were saying some of the alleged things that were shown on UM it was either some kind of side criminal mischief that he was involved in or he was just acting out for whatever reason. for that I feel bad for him and his family especially if it were the latter because he might of indeed had mental instability. regardless of what duty you perform Military life can be very hard on the mind for a lot of people even the most mentally stable. society and the military have not always handled this well but it is slowly getting better.

I tend to think and it is just an opinion as I do NOT have the knowledge about MI but, I don't think Justin was in that. Now, was he trying to impress his girlfriend? Perhaps. I tend to think he was suffering from some type of mental illness based off of his behavior. It wasn't just a 'game' anymore that if ever had been, he was now delusional yet went back and forth in his mind. It is rather sad and I just hope and pray he rests in peace if he is in fact dead?

However out of all of the theories I think the one above from IL who said that an Enlisted can't be MI simply misses the mark. Burgwinkel also before his shoplifting incident had a very high mark in the military which is unusual for someone that is just a bad seed from the start. I tend to think he was mentally ill and that the symptoms manifested themselves over time which with something like schizophrenia would typically manifest either in the late teens or early 20's.

I actually really like the segment about the disappearance of Paul Whipkey, which is one case where I do feel there was a military cover-up of some sort. On the surface, it's possible he could have just walked off into the desert and perished, but I think there's enough suspicious stuff (the sighting of a different man driving his vehicle, the cigarette butts found by his abandoned car even though he didn't smoke) to suggest something shady was going on.
I agree with you... of all of the dramatic military segments that are meant to shed light on secret ops(in a official or even unofficial capacity) this one is the most likely to have been the case. I have only seen that segment on a limited basis and it has been a few years already since I have. hopefully I will encounter it again soon.

schizophrenia
the symptoms he portrayed(girlfriend's account) could be that or some other illness. it's all speculation though because we do not know the truth and we most likely never will.

He was 21 and had been busted for shoplifting while on active duty. Had he had any special clearances, they would have been pulled. He was not involved in any compartmentalized programs and certainly wasn't an operator with military intelligence. He was not a combat vet. He was putting on a show for a girl. No conspiracy here. Move along.

But the right age for the onset of schizophrenia. Obviously we can never truly confirm that unless he's found, but it makes a lot of sense.

But the right age for the onset of schizophrenia.

Exactly.

I agree with you... of all of the dramatic military segments that are meant to shed light on secret ops(in a official or even unofficial capacity) this one is the most likely to have been the case. I have only seen that segment on a limited basis and it has been a few years already since I have. hopefully I will encounter it again soon.

In addition to the suspicious stuff surrounding Paul Whipkey's car (cigarette butts, someone else spotted driving it), Paul was a ROTC honor grad and model soldier. He was also an aviator who was involved in to some degree with the testing of the atomic bomb. His military job put him in a position where the idea of the US Army needing him to disappear is far more plausible than some of the other soldier stories profiled on UM.

However out of all of the theories I think the one above from IL who said that an Enlisted can't be MI simply misses the mark. Burgwinkel also before his shoplifting incident had a very high mark in the military which is unusual for someone that is just a bad seed from the start. I tend to think he was mentally ill and that the symptoms manifested themselves over time which with something like schizophrenia would typically manifest either in the late teens or early 20's.

I should have been more clear in my original post about Justin. At too young at the age of 21 I meant for him being involved in any kind of tier 1 unit. In 1993, it was possible for him to have been a Ranger and involved with sensitive intelligence matters. He was not a Ranger, however. Nor was he a Green Beret. I never saw any evidence that he was assigned directly to a army intelligence command. He would not have been stationed out in California had he been involved in highly sensitive Army Intelligence matters. He would have been at the Pentagon or a select few bases in and around Virginia. As Ive stated previously, I think him telling people he was involved in military intelligence matters was a figment of his imagination.

He would not have been stationed out in California had he been involved in highly sensitive Army Intelligence matters. He would have been at the Pentagon or a select few bases in and around Virginia.

No. There are intelligence units on literally every major U.S. Army installation. There are projects and systems that require intelligence support across the Army map worldwide. You can do this stuff anywhere. You will do this stuff anywhere, because you have to do this stuff anywhere there is an Army mission.

In the Army, intel is not generally considered elite nor shadowy work by our own personnel--even at the Pentagon. It's necessary work, like fueling trucks, planning operations, shooting bad guys, and serving chow is.

No. There are intelligence units on literally every major U.S. Army installation. There are projects and systems that require intelligence support across the Army map worldwide. You can do this stuff anywhere. You will do this stuff anywhere, because you have to do this stuff anywhere there is an Army mission.

In the Army, intel is not generally considered elite nor shadowy work by our own personnel--even at the Pentagon. It's necessary work, like fueling trucks, planning operations, shooting bad guys, and serving chow is.
very true. I wish I could add something to that but I got nothing. other than I enjoyed blasting the (range)chow hall with our jets while your mates were trying to eat. :wave:


I do not remember his duty title although if he was detailed to the kitchen it would be pretty clear he was probably not happy with that if that is not what he wanted to do originally. from the little I know about the army young enlisted types joining the army are sometimes particular about what job they do. when I would talk to recruits that was a big sticking point between us and yall. we will not guarantee specific jobs at any point in enlisting process.. they had to pick from a list of jobs and the air force picks in the end.

wasn't he at monterrey? That is our main language school so yeah a lot of people studying languages for DoD go through there. our missing FBI most wanted guy once went through there. all of our language people flock into the intel world. a lot of people fail out of that place. but it is a training base doubt any real world secret type organized mission was going on there unless there is a one off mission where someone is plotting to kill people later in life if they cannot adult?

:D

ok just being a jokester.

No. There are intelligence units on literally every major U.S. Army installation. There are projects and systems that require intelligence support across the Army map worldwide. You can do this stuff anywhere. You will do this stuff anywhere, because you have to do this stuff anywhere there is an Army mission.

In the Army, intel is not generally considered elite nor shadowy work by our own personnel--even at the Pentagon. It's necessary work, like fueling trucks, planning operations, shooting bad guys, and serving chow is.

You are totally missing the point. I said a command unit. You should know what an actual command is. I wasn't talking about an Intel unit attach to a regiment or a division. I will not waste time discussing actual commands and where they are based out of. Justin wasn't at of any of those. I'd love to know what sensitive Intel Justin had access to while stationed at Fort Ord. Being that fort Ord was in the process of being shut down. He was only at Fort Lewis a few months before he went missing. If was involved with Intel at Fort Lewis, it would have dealt with the Green Berets or Rangers based there. I never saw anything that claimed he was attached to either or a unit responsible for intel.

Remember, this is 1993 we are talking about. He wouldn't have been able to dig around on a computer and produce the kind of compartmentalized info Snowden did.

You are totally missing the point. I said a command unit. You should know what an actual command is. I wasn't talking about an Intel unit attach to a regiment or a division. I will not waste time discussing actual commands and where they are based out of. Justin wasn't at of any of those. I'd love to know what sensitive Intel Justin had access to while stationed at Fort Ord. Being that fort Ord was in the process of being shut down. He was only at Fort Lewis a few months before he went missing. If was involved with Intel at Fort Lewis, it would have dealt with the Green Berets or Rangers based there. I never saw anything that claimed he was attached to either or a unit responsible for intel.

Remember, this is 1993 we are talking about. He wouldn't have been able to dig around on a computer and produce the kind of compartmentalized info Snowden did.

Again, I don't think the kid was doing anything he alluded to doing. I never have. Neither do you. However, I submit your doubts are based on a poor understanding of the Army and its structure. In my estimation, there are more compelling reasons to conclude Burgwinkel was "staging cloak and dagger theatrics" than was actually involved in things clandestine than geographic location and individual age.

Remember, this is 1993 we are talking about. He wouldn't have been able to dig around on a computer and produce the kind of compartmentalized info Snowden did.

No one is remotely even close to suggesting that. Every poster in this thread has said that Bergwinkel's issues were clearly in his head, and not due to some top secret mission that he claimed to be involved in.

very true. I wish I could add something to that but I got nothing. other than I enjoyed blasting the (range)chow hall with our jets while your mates were trying to eat. :wave:

I had many a conference call interrupted by an outgoing jet. My office was right on the flight line during OEF 11-12.
We loathed y'all. :lol:

I do not remember his duty title although if he was detailed to the kitchen it would be pretty clear he was probably not happy with that if that is not what he wanted to do originally. from the little I know about the army young enlisted types joining the army are sometimes particular about what job they do. when I would talk to recruits that was a big sticking point between us and yall. we will not guarantee specific jobs at any point in enlisting process.. they had to pick from a list of jobs and the air force picks in the end.

See, that's what I never understood about this segment. What was his actual MOS? I'm not sure it was ever concretely revealed, as in the Chad Langford case. We know he was an MP.

You're correct: enlisted Soldiers have an MOS and an AIT date assigned before they ever go to basic training. And oftentimes, they are allowed to select from a pool of "needs of the Army" positions, which may or may not align with anything they actually thought they wanted to do. They are also never guaranteed. Although I was on the officer side, I am a living example of such: I was involuntarily reclassed from MI to another branch because it badly needed officers at the time.

wasn't he at monterrey?

That's another reason I wonder what his actual MOS and duty title was.

I had many a conference call interrupted by an outgoing jet. My office was right on the flight line during OEF 11-12.
We loathed y'all. :lol:



See, that's what I never understood about this segment. What was his actual MOS? I'm not sure it was ever concretely revealed, as in the Chad Langford case. We know he was an MP.

You're correct: enlisted Soldiers have an MOS and an AIT date assigned before they ever go to basic training. And oftentimes, they are allowed to select from a pool of "needs of the Army" positions, which may or may not align with anything they actually thought they wanted to do. They are also never guaranteed. Although I was on the officer side, I am a living example of such: I was involuntarily reclassed from MI to another branch because it badly needed officers at the time.



That's another reason I wonder what his actual MOS and duty title was.
Sorry boat that. They used to wake me up every time I heard a maintenance engine test run. I could tell the difference from my room. And it drove me crazy there living that close to work. 1st world af problems I guess.

For our people that go there to Monterrey for their training...we have a high washout rate. It is a very difficult school.

While there are topics I would be willing to challenge Meg on, the military is not one of them... :D

While there are topics I would be willing to challenge Meg on, the military is not one of them... :D
Yup to steal a line from one of my favorite veteran reunion segments... she is...well... I don't know the word... they haven't come up with that word yet.

I'm obviously biased.

When you are discussing the army you best mind your pints and quarts on this board.

For our people that go there to Monterrey for their training...we have a high washout rate. It is a very difficult school.

Definitely. Obviously some languages are harder than others, but only 10 out of my original class of 30 made it through.

While there are topics I would be willing to challenge Meg on, the military is not one of them... :D

There are lots of things wrong with what MegtheEgg86 is saying, but I am not at liberty to discuss it. This is some seriously classified stuff. Now please turn around while I tear up these pieces of paper over and over... :p :lol:

Yeah, I wouldn't challenge Meg on the military, either. :D

That's another reason I wonder what his actual MOS and duty title was.

If I had to guess, it would be a Culinary Specialist or 92G.

I first thought he might have been in limbo after losing his clearance.

We had guys that got temporary duty assignments, typically to the Admin shop, while the Marine Corps figured out what to do with them. Mess duty wasn't an option since the Army ran the chow hall on base. Come to think of it, they might have been civilians.. I remember the ladies at the sign in desk were. Anyway after a few weeks one guy went to Motor T school and the other went to the Combat Engineers.

I also remember two Airmen that spent a couple of weeks literally digging a foxhole, filling it back in, moving a couple of yards and repeating the process. I don't remember what they did to get kicked out of the program, but it must have been fairly bad to get such treatment before they were shipped off.

Anyway, I don't believe that to be the case with Justin. For one thing, the timing isn't right. In Justin's case, we are talking months. Another reason is that I'm 99% sure that at the time Fort Ord was part of a different command than DLI FLC, and Fort Lewis definitely is a different command. The only way you could transfer between commands without an MOS would be to go to a school.

I almost don't want to bring this back up but to set the record straight Fort Lewis DOES have Special Forces units. But I simply don't believe Justin was a part of any of them. Age has been discussed here, but that's not relevant in my opinion... I had a TS SCI clearance before my 19th birthday. The real reasons in my mind that this couldn't be the case are that he didn't have the security clearance any longer and he wasn't qualified. They don't just stick soldiers in units of that kind. Ranger School & Jump School would be the barest of minimums.

The segment alluded to the CIA as well, but I think that's ridiculously unlikely. They usually take the best of the best, not a guy that washed-out early on from the Ranger training pipeline.

At the end of the day, I think he was a cook with a mental problem. I wish his family would get some closure.

One key question I have is if his guns have ever turned up.

Definitely. Obviously some languages are harder than others, but only 10 out of my original class of 30 made it through.

What branch?

My class was made up of all four branches. I can't remember exactly the composition of the original 30, but it was as you'd expect. Probably twice as many Army as any of the others. Only 3 of us Marines, but we all made it through the course.

My class was made up of all four branches. I can't remember exactly the composition of the original 30, but it was as you'd expect. Probably twice as many Army as any of the others. Only 3 of us Marines, but we all made it through the course.
Nice... I only know a few people that have graduated and I heard it was brutal.

The fate of the S.S. Muskogee was also solved along with finding all of the families of the soldiers that died.

http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/The_Families_of_the_S.S._Muskogee_Crew

They did not update this on the season 1 Amazon prime package. They make no mention of the other family members learning the fate of the crew. They just say that 3 of the 7 men in the life raft picture were identified. The others were not.

If I had to guess, it would be a Culinary Specialist or 92G.

I first thought he might have been in limbo after losing his clearance.

We had guys that got temporary duty assignments, typically to the Admin shop, while the Marine Corps figured out what to do with them. Mess duty wasn't an option since the Army ran the chow hall on base. Come to think of it, they might have been civilians.. I remember the ladies at the sign in desk were. Anyway after a few weeks one guy went to Motor T school and the other went to the Combat Engineers.

I also remember two Airmen that spent a couple of weeks literally digging a foxhole, filling it back in, moving a couple of yards and repeating the process. I don't remember what they did to get kicked out of the program, but it must have been fairly bad to get such treatment before they were shipped off.

Anyway, I don't believe that to be the case with Justin. For one thing, the timing isn't right. In Justin's case, we are talking months. Another reason is that I'm 99% sure that at the time Fort Ord was part of a different command than DLI FLC, and Fort Lewis definitely is a different command. The only way you could transfer between commands without an MOS would be to go to a school.

I almost don't want to bring this back up but to set the record straight Fort Lewis DOES have Special Forces units. But I simply don't believe Justin was a part of any of them. Age has been discussed here, but that's not relevant in my opinion... I had a TS SCI clearance before my 19th birthday. The real reasons in my mind that this couldn't be the case are that he didn't have the security clearance any longer and he wasn't qualified. They don't just stick soldiers in units of that kind. Ranger School & Jump School would be the barest of minimums.

The segment alluded to the CIA as well, but I think that's ridiculously unlikely. They usually take the best of the best, not a guy that washed-out early on from the Ranger training pipeline.

At the end of the day, I think he was a cook with a mental problem. I wish his family would get some closure.

One key question I have is if his guns have ever turned up.

Hops, I was hoping you'd pop by here.

I was kind of on the same page as you I think--I haven't seen the segment in some time but I seem to remember thinking that initially: that the Army put him in a "needs" MOS after the shoplifting fiasco.

Just watched the Ralph Sigler segment for the first time (and considered starting a new thread before I stumbled upon this one - this is the Army officer who was involved in espionage work for the Army/FBI).

Going by his daughter's comments RE: his body's appearance at the funeral home (bruises, jacked up teeth etc) as well as those of the journalists regarding the plausibility of suicide and the method Sigler chose, I'd lean towards the murder theory here.

If it was the Soviets, either the KGB found out they were being played, or they were just tired of being fed BS (he was passing along information on weapon systems that didn't work) and tied up the loose ends.

If it was the Military, they could've seen him as a traitor (based on Sigler's work for the FBI, trying to ferret out Rudolph Hermann) and that could've been a motive (despite telling him otherwise), or Hermann could've made Sigler and somehow orchestrated a hit that was made to give the appearance of suicide.

Not in a million years did Ralph Sigler commit suicide. You can take that to the bank. Or your pie hole. Whichever you prefer.

I always thought Ralph Sigler was murdered, and that the Soviets were probably responsible being that Rudolf Herrmann eventually defected to the U.S.

on the ralph sigler front. for those that like military intelligence and American/British history I highly suggest a show called "turn" Washington Spies. it is on Netflix and amazon. it is somewhat realistic in establishing the birth of the intel world in America. it also shows how hard it is for people(and how it affects everyone). it establishes the importance of intel and how it is vital to our national security.

it is a slow starter on the pilot and I will warn it is a drama, but I got hooked on it and can't wait for the last season.

Forgive me if this was posted before, but sadly Carol Solstad, the daughter of Ray Hickenbotham, passed away in 2014. Her obituary can be found here (http://www.swoknews.com/obituaries/carol-jean-hickingbotham-solstad). In the obit, her father is listed as "the late Ray Hickenbotham."

I also found this article (http://newsok.com/article/2304696) from shortly after her segment originally aired. Interestingly enough, she received lots of calls and two people claimed to be from the CIA and backed up what Archangel told her. Even more interesting is that the FBI asked UM for transcripts of her calls, and they told them to pound sand. The FBI then said they would get a subpoena.

I always thought this case would be solved. I just assumed Ray went into hiding due to death threats and/or the secret nature of his work. But I figured after enough time passed, he would have come out of hiding. This is such a weird story because most of what happened was factual, unlike some of the stories where the family just assumes their soldier may have been involved in top secret work.

I feel bad that Carol was never able to get the answers she so desperately wanted. :(

I always thought Ralph Sigler was murdered, and that the Soviets were probably responsible being that Rudolf Herrmann eventually defected to the U.S.

+1 This is one segment that I have never changed my opinion on.

Just watched the Ralph Sigler segment for the first time

I also watched it for the first time today. Must not have run it on the Lifetime reruns and I can imagine why. That reenactment of the suicide might be the most terrifying thing the show ever did. I had to turn away from my phone screen, I couldn't watch it.

As for whether it was murder or suicide, the only thing that would give me pause on murder is that would that it would have been incredibly brazen for the KGB to kill a US citizen on US soil. How much time would they have had to kidnap, savagely beat, coerce into making a phone call, electrocute, and then take him back to the hotel and stage a suicide scene without being seen (I mean I get it, they're spies, but still).

I also watched it for the first time today. Must not have run it on the Lifetime reruns and I can imagine why. That reenactment of the suicide might be the most terrifying thing the show ever did. I had to turn away from my phone screen, I couldn't watch it.

As for whether it was murder or suicide, the only thing that would give me pause on murder is that would that it would have been incredibly brazen for the KGB to kill a US citizen on US soil. How much time would they have had to kidnap, savagely beat, coerce into making a phone call, electrocute, and then take him back to the hotel and stage a suicide scene without being seen (I mean I get it, they're spies, but still).

There is nothing about taking out a US citizen on US soil that would be "brazen" for the KGB. Well within their capacity.

There is nothing about taking out a US citizen on US soil that would be "brazen" for the KGB. Well within their capacity.

yes, in the past 5 years multiple obvious state sponsored attacks/murders have occurred in the UK.

yes, in the past 5 years multiple obvious state sponsored attacks/murders have occurred in the UK.

Yes, and those by the relatively tame contemporary forces. The Cold War era KGB was an entirely different level. The Soviets had far more resources in the US than most have ever been willing to admit and successfully stole the design of the atomic bomb and steered US foreign policy in a way more favorable to the USSR in many places. Killing a minor player on US soil is hardly a problem in comparison.

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/25/1233171784/state-sponsored-assassination-plot-doj
Series of recent DOJ cases show foreign operatives plotting assassinations in U.S.

This quote in this article reminded me of the Sigler case.

"But Glennon said that actual assassinations of U.S. residents were extremely rare.
The Letelier assassination was an anomaly," he said. "These foreign intelligence agencies, including the Soviets, I might add, stopped at the line of assassination. That was verboten."
...
While it may seem counterintuitive that an ally would do something on U.S. soil that America's main geopolitical adversary would not, but Glennon says he thinks part of the explanation boils down to resources.
"The FBI ran an extremely aggressive counterintelligence operation directed at the Soviet Union and communist bloc allies," he said. "These people were under a microscope, and we really knew everything they were doing. It was just amazing."

So yeah, I stand by the idea that Ralph being murdered stateside by the KGB exists in the realm of Tom Clancy novels and not in reality.

In one of the more straight forward UM segments that involved military members: Joffre Ramos. His attacker Luie Quezada was eventually caught and sentenced to prison. There have been a lot of posts in another thread for all of the ridiculous lines from the reenactment. Like "trampita" and hey yo marine!