I wanted to post this, I'm sure most already know, but there was recently a documentary released called Soaked in Bleach, about the death of Kurt Cobain. It is based on the investigation of Tom Grant and reveals a lot more than the UM case did, such as recorded conversations, more evidence, etc... It is currently available on Amazon, I know it didn't have a wide release, obviously, as "Montage of Heck" was released around the same time to take the focus off of this film. Again, don't mean to post if everyone already knows about it, I just hadn't seen any threads on this. Thanks!

Awful, and I like Nirvana without loving them. Disgracefully assembled (https://humanizingthevacuum.wordpress.com/2015/08/15/contradictionary-flies-soaked-in-bleach/).

Totally going to watch it.

I was involved in a pretty spirited debate on here a few years back about Cobain's death... I'm interested to see what the documentary delves into.

I'm not sure what the "awful" means, as the documentary was actually very well made (aside from some criticisms on the re-enactments.) It deals with on-screen interviews with Tom Grant, Cyril Wecht, etc... It really goes into a lot of what was in the 2 books about the case, as well as many taped conversations that I had never heard before (I think some are available on the website.) Anyways, it's a great watch...essentially an hour and a half long UM segment to me, ha!

wow I will check it out. it seems like just yesterday cobain died has it really been almost 22 years? now I just read that Love instagramed a photo of him with a love message. I do watch the cobain UM segment a lot. Although I do believe he committed suicide it was an interesting segment and well put together. it seems like if someone did want to kill him they committed the perfect crime and took advantage of his dangerous drug addiction/life circumstances.

it seems like just yesterday cobain died has it really been almost 22 years?

Cobain's death was one of those "I remember where I was when I heard the news" moments, which doesn't happen to me too often.

Cobain's death was one of those "I remember where I was when I heard the news" moments, which doesn't happen to me too often.
Same here!

Same here!

Yep, I was sitting at home watching Ray Cokes on MTV when he announced it live.

Yep, I was sitting at home watching Ray Cokes on MTV when he announced it live.
I was at an all night (school) basketball tournament and came home in the morning and heard it on the news. I was 10.

What's really interesting is that after all of these years, Courtney and her PR team are still pushing to get this out of the limelight and to have people forget. When this film was about to be released, surprise surprise, Courtney pushed "Montage of Heck" to the mainstream, which she was involved with. This took a lot of the focus off of this movie. They have also threatened repeated litigation against Tom Grant, as well as the movie theaters that were going to show Soaked in Bleach. The theaters showed it anyway, and no lawsuits were filed. Funny stuff!

What's really interesting is that after all of these years, Courtney and her PR team are still pushing to get this out of the limelight and to have people forget. When this film was about to be released, surprise surprise, Courtney pushed "Montage of Heck" to the mainstream, which she was involved with. This took a lot of the focus off of this movie. They have also threatened repeated litigation against Tom Grant, as well as the movie theaters that were going to show Soaked in Bleach. The theaters showed it anyway, and no lawsuits were filed. Funny stuff!

Well I don;t think she is stupid enough to think anybody is ever going to forget him -but yeah you can understand her frustration at having to live in the shadow of a dead person, wanted to push an authorised project over an unauthorised one, constantly being accused of murder & the effect it has had & will have on their kid.

I never stop being amazed that people find the idea of a guy, who had a major drug habit, a long history of mental illness, and talked about suicide in nearly every interview he gave, committing suicide to be so inexplicable. I mean, really?

I never stop being amazed that people find the idea of a guy, who had a major drug habit, a long history of mental illness, and talked about suicide in nearly every interview he gave, committing suicide to be so inexplicable. I mean, really?

Haven't there been conspiracies about pretty much every music star that died young? Didn't Gloria Jones deliberately kill Marc Bolan? Elvis was bumped off for whatever reason? Brian Jones was murdered by his builder? Same thing with actors & actresses-even recently Phillip Seymour Hoffman was bumped off by Scientology according to some. Hero worship is a strange thing-much easier to blame others for their heroes mortal failings, because they can never be mortal in the eyes of some.

I never stop being amazed that people find the idea of a guy, who had a major drug habit, a long history of mental illness, and talked about suicide in nearly every interview he gave, committing suicide to be so inexplicable. I mean, really?
I think those people are in the extreme minority...the whole point of this case is that it is an obvious suicide so the small chance that he was murdered should be investigated

How could anything be proven 21 years after the fact? There are no eyewitnesses, no money trails showing a hitman was hired by love.

I haven't seen the segment in a million, billion years, but I haven't been able to discard the possibility that Courtney Love murdered Kurt, mainly because Kurt was the Elvis of his genre, and Courtney was Yoko Ono. Except that Yoko Ono really does possess *some* talent whereas Courtney has always been an ugly, untalented crazy bitch that mostly everyone hates.

Ahem.

Cannot agree-some of Hole's songs were decent, cannot think of anything Ono did that was any good.

Courtney Love was actually a decent actress in "The People vs. Larry Flynt." Granted, she was playing a character very similar to herself, so it wasn't a huge stretch, but she was good.

There's also Love's minor role in Sid and Nancy, and Nancy Spungen certainly was on the receiving end of hate, even after being murdered.

I liked some of "Live Through This" and I was never a Hole fan (really liked Mudhoney and the Screaming Trees). Both Cobain and Love had troubled childhoods, which were probably the root cause of their mental issues as adults.

Cannot agree-some of Hole's songs were decent, cannot think of anything Ono did that was any good.

I liked Yoko's "Hell In Paradise"

I liked Yoko's "Hell In Paradise"

I am glad you did. The video style is a rip-off of Close To The Edit by Art Of Noise from the year before.

-sFK0-lcjGU

I think those people are in the extreme minority...the whole point of this case is that it is an obvious suicide so the small chance that he was murdered should be investigated

Wait so you think it's a suicide but it still must be investigated as a murder...that sound you hear is my brain crashing gears trying to make sense of it all. :confused:

Wait so you think it's a suicide but it still must be investigated as a murder...that sound you hear is my brain crashing gears trying to make sense of it all. :confused:
Haha don't try to make sense of it.

the investigator made the comment that they investigated it as a homicide first in spite of everything pointing to a suicide. I think people should keep an open mind that's all. If someone did want to murder him it would have been easy to cover. There's also the slight chance he was aided. Like in any celebrity case theories and conspiracy almost alway emerge.

I've never stopped believing that Courtney is responsible for Kurt's murder. Hopefully this movie will provide even more evidence against her.

I am glad you did. The video style is a rip-off of Close To The Edit by Art Of Noise from the year before.

I don't think "rip-off" is the proper term - both videos had the same director.

I really need to watch this. Until today I actually never heard the audio discussions between grant and love. Weird stuff.

I haven't seen the segment in a million, billion years, but I haven't been able to discard the possibility that Courtney Love murdered Kurt, mainly because Kurt was the Elvis of his genre, and Courtney was Yoko Ono. Except that Yoko Ono really does possess *some* talent whereas Courtney has always been an ugly, untalented crazy bitch that mostly everyone hates.

Ahem.
I think Courtney was clearly manipulating Kurt and appeared to possibly be losing control over him once and for all but not sure. That could have been a back forth thing in their relationship. Drugs will mess people up bad especially hard drugs. I can't say she didn't have a motive to kill him and she did clearly have some messed up intentions. But Kurt as well seemed suicidal to many people so it made it tough to deny that side of it.

I never realized how many side stories that there where here because the UM was pretty much all I saw of the murder side of the story. In UM tom grant doesn't really give any of his findings other than to dispute the Seattle investigation.

That was a moment I'll always remember for me as well. I couldn't believe it. I remember 5 years ago a Nirvana song came on at work and I though 'holy s..., he's been dead 17 years!' and now it's almost 22, what the heck that time went too fast.

I haven't seen this yet and while I agree there were signs leading to suicide I have always wondered about the amount of heroin in his system. I have heard different things about this. The main ones are that either

1. He was a hardcore heroin user and would have a very high tolerance so the amount he had taken would not have incapacitated him

or

2. The amount was so massive that even the worst junkie would have been dead almost immediately and certainly not able to operate a shotgun, even in the short time from completing the injection to grabbing the gun and setting up the shot right away.

So does it address this at all? This is the one thing that has always confused me. I mean if the dose he took was 10x the lethal dose for an addict (which might be 100x the lethal dose for a casual user) how did he shoot himself. I know I've read they can't be sure what amount will kill someone but I've always heard that it was way more than enough, the amount was so large that there would be no question it would hurt anyone. But then that first theory/statement comes back into play. So which is it?

From what I heard the answer to the question regarding the amount of heroin Kurt injected is that the criteria for what qualifies as a lethal dose, is based mostly on guesswork; it depends on stuff like the victim's height and weight and especially tolerance, which can really vary from person to person. And of course the purity content of the heroin as well. So it's entirely possible that what would knock an inexperienced user flat, would be just a nightcap to Kurt. The degeneration in the handwriting in the suicide note can be easily explained as, "Dude just took a ton of heroin and it just took affect."

But like I said, I continue to be amazed that people find a guy, who had a major drug problem, documented history of mental illness/suicide attempts, committing suicide to be so inexplicable.

I know that what could knock one person out might be like a small high to a user like Kurt but there has to be a massive amount that would literally kill anyone, no guesswork involved. I had heard that he had taken that kind of an amount. But I see your point. I agree the writing change does go along with the heroin hitting him. My writing was atrocious when I was on pain meds for a while. And I agree there are other things that point to suicide, I just always wondered about that final dose of heroin.

I know that what could knock one person out might be like a small high to a user like Kurt but there has to be a massive amount that would literally kill anyone, no guesswork involved. I had heard that he had taken that kind of an amount. But I see your point. I agree the writing change does go along with the heroin hitting him. My writing was atrocious when I was on pain meds for a while. And I agree there are other things that point to suicide, I just always wondered about that final dose of heroin.
Haha my writing changes without drug use and at times I can't even read it.

From what I heard the answer to the question regarding the amount of heroin Kurt injected is that the criteria for what qualifies as a lethal dose, is based mostly on guesswork; it depends on stuff like the victim's height and weight and especially tolerance, which can really vary from person to person. And of course the purity content of the heroin as well. So it's entirely possible that what would knock an inexperienced user flat, would be just a nightcap to Kurt. The degeneration in the handwriting in the suicide note can be easily explained as, "Dude just took a ton of heroin and it just took affect."

But like I said, I continue to be amazed that people find a guy, who had a major drug problem, documented history of mental illness/suicide attempts, committing suicide to be so inexplicable.

I agree with this. I think we are reading too much into the heroin he took. This guy overdosed on heroin and other drugs multiple times before and did not die. by all accounts he was taking heroin and drinking those last few days. He could barely write on the check that he used to pay for a dinner at a restaurant. That on its own could explain the writing. He also didn't write the letter all in one day. He probably had it prepared as you can see the lines in it too. He had his shotgun with him on his way to rehab and his driver had to take it back home for him. He was planning this. He also may have felt super guilty for Leaving rehab coupled with being isolated away from any family or close friends. In the end I think he took one last dose of strong drugs to get an instant high and immediately shot himself.

I think people love Kurt so much that they just can't accept that he shot himself. It had to be someone else. He publicly admitted
To being suicidal years before he did it and publicly admitted to drug abuse. Just because he said that he was happy and clean did not mean that it was so. Being clean or happy for a few days does not count(which at best was the case when he spoke to people...at worst he was lying which drug abusers often do). drug abusers will take any credit for being clean if they are sober at that very moment. It's a bad disease.

Everything about Courtney Love points to her being a murderer. Look at her. She's a mess. I cannot believe people are willing to let her off the hook. So many of you are way too skeptical and are too quick to accept the "suicide" explanation. Shame!

"This was more likely a homicide than a suicide."
"I just think it's a staged suicide. That's the bottom line."
Dr. Cyril Wecht on the Cobain case.

After hearing him discuss the forensic evidence in the film in detail, I certainly concur with all of his findings.

CL lied to SPD on March 18th, 1994, when she reported to them by phone that Cobain was locked in a room with guns threatening to kill himself. Officer Everett Edwards recently debunked this and revealed that CL admitted to lying when she made the report, a lie that was later reported widely on April 9th when she manipulated the media and public opinion after KC's body was found. CL lied again to SPD, when she made the missing persons report, claiming to be Kurt's mother, telling them he fled a rehab center and was suicidal. The only person that kept saying KC was suicidal was CL, who had motive to see him turn up dead because she was facing a divorce and stood to lose a lot financially if that happened. The practice sheet of Kurt's handwriting that turned up in CL's back pack that was left with their attorney was incriminating. Police made a rush to judgement after already having record of two previous false reports that Kurt was suicidal.

I concur with the experts in the film. There was foul play involved, and the SPD botched the investigation. The film lays it all out.

Yeah, the thing is, that if it WAS a staged suicide Love (or whoever it was) had the perfect victim. Drug addict who had already admitted to being suicidal. Gives enough reason to believe suicide that it brings more than enough reasonable doubt for murder.

I don't have any kind of defend-able opinion on this one. I lean strongly toward suicide but I think there are some odd circumstances that lead me to understand those who question that.

Yeah, the thing is, that if it WAS a staged suicide Love (or whoever it was) had the perfect victim. Drug addict who had already admitted to being suicidal. Gives enough reason to believe suicide that it brings more than enough reasonable doubt for murder.

I don't have any kind of defend-able opinion on this one. I lean strongly toward suicide but I think there are some odd circumstances that lead me to understand those who question that.

I believe suicide, but I completely agree with this statement. :)

May I ask if either of you has seen the film? I think it's on netflix now so it is more widely available. Dr. Wecht's presentation is particularly persuasive, along with the mountain of supporting evidence. I fully respect difference of opinion. I would be interested in hearing anyone refute the data in the film. I have not seen anyone do so successfully yet since the film's release. Old myths die hard, so it is not surprising that people buy into the media hype CL put out there that he was suicidal. His stomach ailment had been cured, he loved his daughter, he was happy about life, and none of his friends thought he was suicidal. The only person that perpetuated the idea that he was suicidal to SPD, the private investigator, and the media was CL. KC refused to take her phone calls at the rehab center and when he left there, she was ten minutes away and instead of stopping by to see her, he boarded a plane for Seattle. He refused to take her calls, but he did see his daughter and the nanny before he left rehab, and there was a snapshot of him with Frances at that time shown in the movie, smiling and happy. Him "running away" from rehab was just another of CL's media rumors. He simply walked out the front door and left. There are so many myths dispelled in the film. It really is worth a look, to those that may not have seen it yet.

The film's recreations reminded me of Unsolved's old presentations from the original show.

I have not seen it, but I will try and watch it when I'm on my break from school. I though someone mentioned in this thread that Dave Grohl said Kurt was suicidal or he wasn't surprised it was suicide or something like that. I was under the impression there was at least one other person besides CL who thought he was.

I do respect Dr. Wecht though, and will definitely watch with an open mind. Do Kurt's mother and sister speak in this film at all, and either way, do you know what they think? Any idea if they think it's murder or suicide?

I've seen the film. It is by far more detailed than the UM segment for
Those that were moved off the suicide opinion by that. You get a much better picture of why tom grant instantly turned on
Courtney. I did not really learn anything new from the movie save a few things. One that the portrayal of Dylan Carlson was weird. But he apparently was just another one of Kurts friends that was a junkie. I was moved a little by dr Cyril but his testimony to me seems more that the case needs to reopend and investigated not that he believes that Kurt was indeed murdered. I do think that the investigation was too quick and it was just determined right away that it was a suicide rather than investigating all angles including Courtney.

My problem though is that the film Is biased towards Kurt being murdered so if you are skeptical or believe Kurt was murdered before watching then you will certainly believe it after. For me the film Just further shows how poorly the Seattle police investigation was.

My opinion goes back to Kurts family and krist novaselec and Dave grohl. They all accepted that Kurt was suicidal and that he did it. Especially krist. You can tell to this day that Kurt was like his brother. Krist is a smart guy and was one Kurts few friends that was not a heroin junkie. and he did not appear to have a close relationship with Courtney after the death. But to this day he believes Kurt did commit suicide. If more people close to Kurt believed that he was murdered by Courtney's hand indirectly then I would probably change my mind. I would like to see his case reinvestigated but I don't see much changing other than his case changing to undetermined due to lack
Of evidence.
Changing the subject a little but did anyone see Courtney's speech at the nirvana rock in roll HOF induct? Talk about awkward!

I honestly think Kurt committed suicide, not based on the evidence but more on the timeline of events leading up to the day of his death. I read an article, that has since been taken down, that Kurt felt very good after the unplugged in New York concert. But had told some people that after that concert, there wasn't going to be anything better than that. It reminded me a lot of how Dave Gahan felt after Depeche Mode sold out the Rose Bowl and had the best concert of their career and the downward spiral that followed. His overdose in Europe prior to his death. There was nothing accidental about it. The pills were in pop out packets. So Kurt went and deliberately popped out enough pills and started downing them with alcohol. Following that he checked himself out of a rehabilitation facility. Checked out of a drug rehab facility is the same as going AMA in a hospital, it's a deliberate act. I honestly think something set Kurt off that triggered his behavior leading up to him ultimately taking his own life.

I honestly think Kurt committed suicide, not based on the evidence but more on the timeline of events leading up to the day of his death. I read an article, that has since been taken down, that Kurt felt very good after the unplugged in New York concert. But had told some people that after that concert, there wasn't going to be anything better than that. It reminded me a lot of how Dave Gahan felt after Depeche Mode sold out the Rose Bowl and had the best concert of their career and the downward spiral that followed. His overdose in Europe prior to his death. There was nothing accidental about it. The pills were in pop out packets. So Kurt went and deliberately popped out enough pills and started downing them with alcohol. Following that he checked himself out of a rehabilitation facility. Checked out of a drug rehab facility is the same as going AMA in a hospital, it's a deliberate act. I honestly think something set Kurt off that triggered his behavior leading up to him ultimately taking his own life.
Those are good points. I honestly think he committed suicide because of Courtney. I think he was already depressed before that but she pushed him over the edge. She forced the intervention on him despite being an addict herself. She tried to control and manipulate him constantly. She blamed him for losing money and stalling her rock band. I know he wanted to leave her but I know how much his parents divorce messed him up and I just wonder if he couldn't bare the thought of that.

No one has mentioned that Cobain suffered from debilitating and diagnosed stomach pains during the last few years of his life. The heroin abuse was partly to numb the pain.

Everything about Courtney Love points to her being a murderer. Look at her. She's a mess. I cannot believe people are willing to let her off the hook. So many of you are way too skeptical and are too quick to accept the "suicide" explanation. Shame!

She's a mess, therefore she's a murderer. Excellent logic.

Cannot agree-some of Hole's songs were decent, cannot think of anything Ono did that was any good.

Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band, Approximately Infinite Universe, and Season of Glass are her best albums, and her songs on Double Fantasy gave Lennon the sharpness his lacked.

I have no idea what Yoko and Courtney Love are doing in the same thread other than a lot of posters thinking it's impossible a woman who married a great singer-songwriter couldn't be one herself.

I saw this the other day on Netflix. Amazing. I always knew Courtney was guilty, and my suspicions were proven correct when The P.I verified the media was only staying things made up by Courtney. The missing persons report by his mother was in fact Courtney. She said if she put it under his mothers name police would take it more seriously. One red flag. Secondly Kurt began having a new outlook on life, his close friends and even family said once his daughter was born it was as if he was changed. He went to rehab and was happier, he even made plans with his grandparents. He honestly loved Francis deeply. I don't see someone who brought a child into this world becoming even more selfish. In fact it seems the opposite. Third, Courtney's own father said he thought she was involved because of her behavior as a teen. He says she wrote poems about being powerful and using men for their money. He even read one of them on camera in another video. I mean a guy who admits that Courtney bribed him with 30,000 to kill Kurt ends up dead under suspicious circumstances? She hears Kurt wanted to break off the relationship and remove her form his will... These are all signs pointing to a jealous, rage full and entitled woman. She even grew suspicious of every girl around Kurt. I mean, take away the media and look at all the facts and you see what's going on. Someone with a lot of money on Hollywood pays for their secrets to be kept under wraps. We forget the media is at most purely for entertainment purposes; to generate money. Even when news appears to be real, they will take the story with the most drama just so there can be more headlines and papers sold. Courtney was the one fed the media stories on kurt's letter of him resigning from music and made it out to be a suicide note. Even the P.I says he couldn't take Courtney seriously. I mean, I could go on for days. The whole thing really puts a spin on this crazy bitch.

Can we please stop calling women "bitches"? It doesn't help the discussion.

Courtney Love didn't have any of the power you're ascribing to her. Conspiracies need money. She had none until she inherited Cobain's.

This is why I think the film is biased. They take facts and twist them. They say that Kurt is happy and not suicidal(because he made that statement at one time). Even though Kurt had tried to commit suicide once possibly twice before and was still heavily abusing heroin. They use Dylan Carlson as a main character/ witness yet you can't tell if he's reliable and if tom grant even trusts him.

I saw this the other day on Netflix. Amazing. I always knew Courtney was guilty, and my suspicions were proven correct when The P.I verified the media was only staying things made up by Courtney. The missing persons report by his mother was in fact Courtney. She said if she put it under his mothers name police would take it more seriously. One red flag. Secondly Kurt began having a new outlook on life, his close friends and even family said once his daughter was born it was as if he was changed. He went to rehab and was happier, he even made plans with his grandparents. He honestly loved Francis deeply. I don't see someone who brought a child into this world becoming even more selfish. In fact it seems the opposite. Third, Courtney's own father said he thought she was involved because of her behavior as a teen. He says she wrote poems about being powerful and using men for their money. He even read one of them on camera in another video. I mean a guy who admits that Courtney bribed him with 30,000 to kill Kurt ends up dead under suspicious circumstances? She hears Kurt wanted to break off the relationship and remove her form his will... These are all signs pointing to a jealous, rage full and entitled woman. She even grew suspicious of every girl around Kurt. I mean, take away the media and look at all the facts and you see what's going on. Someone with a lot of money on Hollywood pays for their secrets to be kept under wraps. We forget the media is at most purely for entertainment purposes; to generate money. Even when news appears to be real, they will take the story with the most drama just so there can be more headlines and papers sold. Courtney was the one fed the media stories on kurt's letter of him resigning from music and made it out to be a suicide note. Even the P.I says he couldn't take Courtney seriously. I mean, I could go on for days. The whole thing really puts a spin on this crazy bitch.
Honestly I think soaked in bleach gives an extreme narrow viewpoint of Kurts death. They are high on circumstancial evidence(if you can even call it that)and aren't really proving anything. I do find Courtney's actions to be weird and I understand why grant was thrown for a loop. The guy he uses as his lead alibi Dylan Carlson has publicly blasted tom grant. And while he was evasive about Kurts suicide it's obvious that most of his problem stems from the fact he bought Kurts gun and that has to make him feel pretty low.

They also don't address the fact that Kurt was humiliated from suspicion that Courtney was cheating on him. And apparently in his mind he did feel she betrayed him and neglected him when he was in Europe. He knew his marriage was over and could not handle it. That is what drove him to suicide. Did Courtney have a motive to murder him I think yes. But she did not need to. Kurt was bound to die the way he was living. If she really wanted him did she could have let him die the several occasions that he od'ed in her presence yet every time she made efforts to revive him. The latest just a few weeks prior in Rome.

For nirvana fans like myself I suggest to watch montage of heck. It came out this year and the soundtrack just got released. It's a biography of Kurts life with a lot of his personal tapes journals and close family members talking about his life. To me this is more reliable because the people closest to Kurt were the ones that hurt him the most and were the ones that likely were the most effected by his death. Kurt was humiliated by his parents divorce and subsequent abandonment. He also recalls a time he tried to sleep with a girl as a teen and got ridiculed for it. After that was one of his first suicide attempts. Sound like a preview of what transpired later.

Near the end Courtney talks about "almost cheating" on Kurt which humiliated him and was likely the cause of his suicide.

Don't know who she almost cheated on him with it could of been billy corgan or Cali or someone he knew. He was asking Cali to tell him the truth and he played "best friends girl" at his last live show before almost dying in Rome. Despite this according to love he tried to romance Courtney in Rome the night before and she blew him off.

He was also having a lot more trouble with Dave grohl and krist than I previously knew. He got into a fight with krist over his drug use the last time they saw each other. His record company was trying to force him into rehab and another nirvana tour which he did not need. Perhaps his last saving grace was that Privately He had plans to record an acoustic album with REMs frontman but cancelled on him right before his death. Neil young claims that he was f'ed up by the fact that Kurt wrote it's better to burn out than slowly fade away and that he tried to contact Kurt just days before his death to tell him to blow off the record companies and do it his way. Sad...

No one has mentioned that Cobain suffered from debilitating and diagnosed stomach pains during the last few years of his life. The heroin abuse was partly to numb the pain.

He mentioned in a recorded interview that his stomach ailment was cured.

The blood evidence is one of the clinchers in my estimation. After that huge of a dose of heroin, Dr. Wecht said he would have been incapacitated within seconds. The idea that he could take that dose, neatly replace the cap on the needle (which requires some dexterity), put all his stuff away, and then shoot himself is beyond the realm of possibility. Until I see a peer reviewed evaluation of Dr. Wecht's ideas by other renowned experts, preferably not anyone from SPD, I remained convinced by the forensic evidence. Although I would consider Wecht to be the top of the heap in terms of expert opinion. Perhaps there is someone out there reading this thread that is a qualified, respected pathologist that can share their opinion?

He mentioned in a recorded interview that his stomach ailment was cured.

The blood evidence is one of the clinchers in my estimation. After that huge of a dose of heroin, Dr. Wecht said he would have been incapacitated within seconds. The idea that he could take that dose, neatly replace the cap on the needle (which requires some dexterity), put all his stuff away, and then shoot himself is beyond the realm of possibility. Until I see a peer reviewed evaluation of Dr. Wecht's ideas by other renowned experts, preferably not anyone from SPD, I remained convinced by the forensic evidence. Although I would consider Wecht to be the top of the heap in terms of expert opinion. Perhaps there is someone out there reading this thread that is a qualified, respected pathologist that can share their opinion?
On UM wecht stated that it was possible for Cobain to shoot the shotgun and that he believes the suicide verdict. He also said that he thinks it was possible he could have been murdered. I think his problem as not only a pathologist but as an investigator is that Seattle did not do a thorough investigation. To me there is more evidence that shows suicide. So much so that the first responders made up their minds not to look at other angles giving guys like tom grant who knew nothing about Kurt a conspiracy angle. One of the most important things dr wecht mentions in soaked in bleach is that he felt because of Kurts popularity SPD should have waited and looked at all angles to satisfy the public desire for truth. That would have prevented some but not all conspiracy theories. I think

Tom Grant feels the same way. I honestly think initially Grant did the right thing and SPD was wrong for blowing him off, but unlike a program like UM soaked in bleach in my opinion is a one sided viewpoint on the death of Kurt cobain. They dismiss a lot of information that is out there to try to prove their side which is very biased. I also think it's pretty telling that no one who actually knew Kurt personally spoke in the film other than illegal taped recorded phone conversations by a heavily drug addicted Courtney and their lawyer who was likely caught in the middle with her loyalty to Kurt and Courtney. Everyone goes out of their way to talk about how credible Grant is yet his biggest pieces of evidence were obtained illegally by his own admission. The portrayal of Dylan Carlson is dicey IMo because Grant uses him to further his investigation and then turns on him later as if it's his fault they didn't search the greenhouse. and it's important to note in real life Carlson despised tom Grant. I question grants motive now which I think is to gain money at kurt's and Frances' expense to further his investigation or personal life. To me it's pretty clear Kurt commited suicide after looking further into it.

Perhaps there is someone out there reading this thread that is a qualified, respected pathologist that can share their opinion?

I suppose there is no one yet, but I will check back here to see if anyone qualified shows up. I will also come back and post here and share if I find anything that has been peer-reviewed that can even attempt to refute Wecht's findings that are actually in the film. Until I find an actual expert in the field willing to refute Wecht, I remain convinced by Wecht's interpretation of the evidence. A fan or a lay person's interpretation of Wecht is meaningless and is quite often based on emotion instead of science. It is a critique of Wecht by another qualified, degree holding, experienced expert or group of experts is what I am after.

I suppose there is no one yet, but I will check back here to see if anyone qualified shows up. I will also come back and post here and share if I find anything that has been peer-reviewed that can even attempt to refute Wecht's findings that are actually in the film. Until I find an actual expert in the field willing to refute Wecht, I remain convinced by Wecht's interpretation of the evidence. A fan or a lay person's interpretation of Wecht is meaningless and is quite often based on emotion instead of science. It is a critique of Wecht by another qualified, degree holding, experienced expert or group of experts is what I am after.
I agree about getting a pathologist opinion being better than a mere fan's opinion. But beyond that it isn't solving this case.

and as a die hard UM fan I've seen wecht's testimonies in other cases that he was personally involved in those cases he had access to more information and was able to close or prove cause of death. I've also seen the UM Kurt cobain case and soaked in bleach. In soaked in bleach he is either portrayed as a believer that Kurt was murdered or he flipped his opinion of what he himself stated on UM on this very case. With that said he is definitely more qualified than a fan to share his opinion. But keep in mind He is an expert commenting on media and still would need better info.

The issue here is wecht doesn't have access to the Kurt cobain case. He is pointing out the mistakes made by Seattle investigators but he cannot prove anything beyond that just as no one else can because Seattle did not do a thorough investigation beyond suicide.

The thing people are forgetting about the doc being "one sided" is, that is what the case has been in the mainstream. Just look around and you will find that. This doc is a must and is proving a lot of people wrong. I just hope others open up their minds and look past all the mainstream mess.

It's also to note, that celebs are often looked past as suspects to crimes. Because people look at them as gods and no people. They are people, like everyone else. I know some people hate courtney, but still believe Kurt killed himself. It's also something to note, in a lot of cases, people will target a person with problems and make their death look like a suicide. It would look as if the person killed themselves, because of their problems. They will take anything and use it as evidence. All to prove their case.

The thing people are forgetting about the doc being "one sided" is, that is what the case has been in the mainstream. Just look around and you will find that. This doc is a must and is proving a lot of people wrong. I just hope others open up their minds and look past all the mainstream mess.

It's also to note, that celebs are often looked past as suspects to crimes. Because people look at them as gods and no people. They are people, like everyone else. I know some people hate courtney, but still believe Kurt killed himself. It's also something to note, in a lot of cases, people will target a person with problems and make their death look like a suicide. It would look as if the person killed themselves, because of their problems. They will take anything and use it as evidence. All to prove their case.

You are correct. If someone wanted to murder Kurt he would have made an easy target because of his heroine addiction. Much like other victims are easy targets I.e. Runaways or prostitutes Etc. Kurt was sort of like a drifter in his final days while he was on drugs except this time Courtney wasn't there to save him. That's what gets me is why does it have to be only love that killed him. Anyone who was around him could have done it without loves involvement. She protected him time after time but this time she was working on her own life and Kurt right or wrong made the decision to leave her behind and not return any of her calls nor check on her. People seamlessly disregard that. In this case so many people only use what they want to prove their theory. They say well Kurt said he was healed or that he was happy. This is a guy who is on record many times contradicting himself and saying that he doesn't like the media. He is also a heavy drug addict. He abused opiates which destroy your digestive system. I love Kurt and think he had a good heart but that said you can never take a hard drug addict at their word. They lie to themselves and everyone else feed their addiction. He also says he will say one thing when he means another. Clearly he was unstable and unhappy as a person. He was before he was famous and remained that way after.

You need help if you ever thought, courtney was protecting him. Check yourself into a mental hospital and get help. You took what I said and went the other way. The whore can't even protect her child, what makes you think she can protect Kurt?

You need help if you ever thought, courtney was protecting him. Check yourself into a mental hospital and get help. You took what I said and went the other way. The whore can't even protect her child, what makes you think she can protect Kurt?

Wow thanks for the personal attack. Welcome to the boards!

I'm not taking her side at all. Read through all of my posts on here. At times I blamed her for his suicide as well. For a long time I even thought she could have killed him but have since changed my mind. My post was more geared to people just blatantly ignoring Kurts actions and blaming Courtney for everything like as if he wasn't messed up bad before he met her. And yes as sad as it may be he could have died sooner if she and others wernt there to save him at other times. I like how Kurt was every bit as messed up as Courtney yet no one bashes him. I think she was a you know what. But it's not like Kurt was a better dad than she was a mom. And he could have easily ended up the same way without Courtney ever being his wife. He was doing heavy drugs before he met her. With all that said I'm a huge cobain fan and he is probably my second to favorite singer ever. I also think he was a good guy just had a terrible sickness. I'm just looking at all the facts and making a determination just as everyone else on here does. Doesn't mean I need to be in a hospital because you don't like what I posted.

You need help if you ever thought, courtney was protecting him. Check yourself into a mental hospital and get help. You took what I said and went the other way. The whore can't even protect her child, what makes you think she can protect Kurt?

Can we flag this post?

Can we flag this post?

I'd go one step further and flag the poster. Completely inappropriate response to valid points made by a forum regular who always has something interesting to bring to the table.

I agree with DallasTexan-- I do not like Courtney Love. I think she's a sorry excuse for a human being: bad wife, bad mother, bad person. But I also don't think she killed Kurt.

I get passionate about cases I believe in. I reacted out of that. I'm sorry.

My biggest problem with this case is, when people believe he killed himself with drugs and a shotgun because he was on drugs before and "was depressed". It's not right to say that about any person. He was taking the drugs because of his stomach pains, which he got help for. He wasn't depressed, he just hated the mainstream music business. If you look at his "suicide note", you will notice the last lines are not from Kurt. The letter was to the fans about leaving the music business.

I look at both sides of a case, no matter what. If something looks fishy, then I start to wonder. The timeline of events, makes the whole "suicide theory" looks fishy. While he could have had worked up a tolerance for the drug, there are other things like the cops not talking to Tom, destroying the green house and cremating his body, just after his death. You have to look at both sides and keep an open mind, if you are not sure. I'm sure Kurt was murdered.

He wasn't depressed, he just hated the mainstream music business.

This is not a binary.

I get passionate about cases I believe in. I reacted out of that. I'm sorry.

My biggest problem with this case is, when people believe he killed himself with drugs and a shotgun because he was on drugs before and "was depressed". It's not right to say that about any person. He was taking the drugs because of his stomach pains, which he got help for. He wasn't depressed, he just hated the mainstream music business. If you look at his "suicide note", you will notice the last lines are not from Kurt. The letter was to the fans about leaving the music business.

I look at both sides of a case, no matter what. If something looks fishy, then I start to wonder. The timeline of events, makes the whole "suicide theory" looks fishy. While he could have had worked up a tolerance for the drug, there are other things like the cops not talking to Tom, destroying the green house and cremating his body, just after his death. You have to look at both sides and keep an open mind, if you are not sure. I'm sure Kurt was murdered.

I understand and it's all good just please be courteous. We have good debates on here without personal attacks.

I'm a huge nirvana fan probably a nerd for knowing too much about them.


In my opinion...and those closest to him say that Kurt was very depressed as a child after his parents divorce by his own admission. He himself spoke into a tape recorder confessing to a suicide attempt as a teenager long before he met Courtney. He himself lashed out at people that talked trash about Courtney in the press or indicated that she controlled him. If you just listen to tom Grant alone I can see how you can think he was murdered, but if you go back to Kurts childhood and see how he was passed around between mom and dad who didn't want him(among others as well) it's rather easy to see why he felt empty inside before and after he was famous. Is it possible he was murdered yes and I do wish SPD did a better investigation. But the last few weeks of his life scream suicide and if he were not the most famous rockstar of the 90s and was just a regular guy no one would be having a debate about this being suicide or murder.

I'd go one step further and flag the poster. Completely inappropriate response to valid points made by a forum regular who always has something interesting to bring to the table.

I agree with DallasTexan-- I do not like Courtney Love. I think she's a sorry excuse for a human being: bad wife, bad mother, bad person. But I also don't think she killed Kurt.
Thanks!

I watched the doc just to see what people were talking about, and there really is nothing new being said in it. It's all rehashing of Tom Grant's "theories" that have been propagated for years. There are really crappy re-enactments and the phone calls and recordings are pieced together for maximum sensationalism, but when taken on their own, really say nothing if you actually evaluate them; everything in the movie is decontextualized in order to make Courtney look suspicious. I am a huge fan of Cobain's and Love's, and I've never bought the murder theory. People claim that she paid off the Seattle PD which I find ludicrous. If she had anything to do with his death, she would've been charged years ago. I'll be shocked if I live to see a day where there is compelling evidence showing that she was guilty of anything.

I watched the doc just to see what people were talking about, and there really is nothing new being said in it. It's all rehashing of Tom Grant's "theories" that have been propagated for years. There are really crappy re-enactments and the phone calls and recordings are pieced together for maximum sensationalism, but when taken on their own, really say nothing if you actually evaluate them; everything in the movie is decontextualized in order to make Courtney look suspicious. I am a huge fan of Cobain's and Love's, and I've never bought the murder theory. People claim that she paid off the Seattle PD which I find ludicrous. If she had anything to do with his death, she would've been charged years ago. I'll be shocked if I live to see a day where there is compelling evidence showing that she was guilty of anything.

That's why you think she's innocent.

That's why you think she's innocent.

Maybe, but maybe not. I think Hole was a fantastic band, but I also realize that she's unstable, narcissistic, and quite frankly a difficult person to deal with—what I mean to say is that I don't dispute her flaws. Her life has been a disaster and I don't necessarily think she's a good person. I do think she's brave, and a good writer. I have similar feelings about Cobain.

The reason I dispute the murder theory is because the "evidence" that the theorists tout in this purported "case" is all conjecture, and comes from one source: Tom Grant. There is nothing that definitely proves Cobain died of anything other than a suicide; if there were, she would have been charged by now.

The widely-circulated heroin dosage claim was also based off of a Seattle Weekly article that wasn't fact-checked, and no one is even sure where the 1.52 claim even came from. It's illegal to make a toxicology report public, so whatever purported dosage that people like to cite as the "smoking gun" is unsubstantiated. Nobody knows how much heroin was in his system other than his family who have access to that information.

There is also the fact that the family and friends of Cobain—his bandmates, his mother, family, etc.—have never second guessed this. They knew him best—if they thought Courtney were suspicious/responsible, why haven't they ever said so? They know about the murder theories, yet none of them have ever given them any credence. If the people who were around him most aren't questioning this, why is the public?

Grant is a charlatan, and no matter how much the truthers want to claim he doesn't benefit off of propagating this narrative, they're wrong. He charges fees on his website for Nirvana fans to speak to him on the phone about the case ($100+/hour), won't write back his followers, and has peddled DIY crime solving kits in the past. I don't know how people can take that seriously.

I've always been in the camp that Cobain was killed. I could be completely wrong and it would't really faze me one way or the other because I never found Nirvana, Cobain, Hole or Love to my liking. So, there's no emotion guiding my feeling on the subject. I find Nirvana to be highly overrated but that's me.

My initial feeling was that somebody who was in rehab would be more likely to overdose because their tolerance is low, but he was only there for 2 days. I've always been kind of stuck on how someone under the influence of drugs could position themselves in such a way that they could pull the trigger on a shotgun. Granted, I've never tried it, but I'd imagine it to be difficult even sober.
I do feel the Courtney had millions of reasons to want Cobain dead. She's done quite well for herself since he died by releasing material only she benefit from. So, there's that. Having said that I never put even a tiny bit of stock in the guy who claimed she hired him to murder Kurt. I think he was just looking for the spotlight.

As the years pass, I find myself on the fence. Kurt had reasons to kill himself and Courtney had reasons to kill him. Courtney, to me, was the 90's version of Nancy Spungeon.

Maybe, but maybe not. I think Hole was a fantastic band, but I also realize that she's unstable, narcissistic, and quite frankly a difficult person to deal with—what I mean to say is that I don't dispute her flaws. Her life has been a disaster and I don't necessarily think she's a good person. I do think she's brave, and a good writer. I have similar feelings about Cobain.

The reason I dispute the murder theory is because the "evidence" that the theorists tout in this purported "case" is all conjecture, and comes from one source: Tom Grant. There is nothing that definitely proves Cobain died of anything other than a suicide; if there were, she would have been charged by now.

The widely-circulated heroin dosage claim was also based off of a Seattle Weekly article that wasn't fact-checked, and no one is even sure where the 1.52 claim even came from. It's illegal to make a toxicology report public, so whatever purported dosage that people like to cite as the "smoking gun" is unsubstantiated. Nobody knows how much heroin was in his system other than his family who have access to that information.

There is also the fact that the family and friends of Cobain—his bandmates, his mother, family, etc.—have never second guessed this. They knew him best—if they thought Courtney were suspicious/responsible, why haven't they ever said so? They know about the murder theories, yet none of them have ever given them any credence. If the people who were around him most aren't questioning this, why is the public?

Grant is a charlatan, and no matter how much the truthers want to claim he doesn't benefit off of propagating this narrative, they're wrong. He charges fees on his website for Nirvana fans to speak to him on the phone about the case ($100+/hour), won't write back his followers, and has peddled DIY crime solving kits in the past. I don't know how people can take that seriously.

I agree 100%. I was always a nirvana fan from when I first heard nevermind. Never really liked love. I always blamed her either way whether she did it or not. But the more I looked at the conspiracy angle and also the other nirvana documentaries where family members and friends have talked...everything points to suicide. Love was/maybe still is a drug addict. Her behavior was always weird but I think grant just locked onto this and is wrong.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e27/gonejakid/Screen%20Shot%202017-09-08%20at%207.59.35%20PM.png

The odds that he committed suicide are 0.1%.

If you are willing to read the books written by Ian Halperin and Max Wallace, review all of the evidence and gain a comprehensive view of the circumstances surrounding his death and all things tied to it – you will notice the following trend:

1. Very little evidence he committed suicide.
2. Overwhelming evidence that he DID NOT commit suicide.
3. Unusual efforts to conceal, suppress and destroy information related to his death and the days surrounding it.

I thought this would be a good time to bump this debate as it is on Amazon now. Although I've seen it before, when this was first made with Robert Stack, they are so careful not to insinuate Love's involvement. However, on the Dennis Farina segment, did anyone notice how they make pictures of Love flash on the screen when he mentions who could be involved? If you study the side-by-side at the top, you will notice it is plainly obvious she wrote the last four lines, desecrating his resignation letter and Robert Stack even said Unsolved Mystery experts find the last four lines questionable and that a second hand was at work.

If you study the side-by-side at the top, you will notice it is plainly obvious she wrote the last four lines, desecrating his resignation letter and Robert Stack even said Unsolved Mystery experts find the last four lines questionable and that a second hand was at work.

HOLY CRAP! I've never seen that before. If those are both accurate, you can plainly see the same person wrote both of those. Wow.

I'm not saying he was murdered, but if the suicide note was altered... why?

Thanks for posting that.

This is one in retrospect I wish Seattle PD took their time on. Kurts murderer would have known he was suicidal and that they could commit the crime of the century. I used to wonder if love did it but now I think he killed himself. It just makes zero sense that love or anyone else would have killed him when he was killing himself over time. All they had to do was leave him alone with drugs. I think the writing can easily be explained that he wrote the letter at two different occasions at different levels of sobriety/drug inoxication.

The odds that he committed suicide are 0.1%.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Gary-Coleman-wtf.gif

Couldn't the handwriting be easily explained away as "Kurt had taken a ton of heroin and it had taken effect?"

Couldn't the handwriting be easily explained away as "Kurt had taken a ton of heroin and it had taken effect?"

The point isn't so much that it doesn't look like Kurt's. The point is that it is almost an exact match of Courtney's. Those two notes have identical handwriting.

Something I never see addressed by those that say Cobain was murdered is the fact that just one month prior, he nearly died of a drug overdose in Rome. Here is the Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/1994-03-05/news/mn-30142_1_rock-band) account of that story.

The idea that this man was not depressed is frankly, laughable. One need only to listen to the music and in particular, his lyrics, to hear the private thoughts of a man with some deeply rooted troubles.

This was right in my wheelhouse. I was 18 years old when he died. It felt like my generation (Gen X) was just starting to assert itself into popular culture in the early 90s when the most recognizable figure was gone — poof.

Courtney Love may be a lot of things, but a murderess she isn't.

P.S. Handwriting analysis is not a legitimate science. And, it is only admissible in a court of law if the the person giving the testimony is deemed an "expert" in the field (however one would qualify that); presumably by the judge and is agreed to by both the prosecution and defense.

Furthermore, one cannot solely base their decision on the guilt or innocence of someone based on handwriting analysis. I think that's just foolish, I'm sorry.

Something I never see addressed by those that say Cobain was murdered is the fact that just one month prior, he nearly died of a drug overdose in Rome. Here is the Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/1994-03-05/news/mn-30142_1_rock-band) account of that story.

The idea that this man was not depressed is frankly, laughable. One need only to listen to the music and in particular, his lyrics, to hear the private thoughts of a man with some deeply rooted troubles.

This was right in my wheelhouse. I was 18 years old when he died. It felt like my generation (Gen X) was just starting to assert itself into popular culture in the early 90s when the most recognizable figure was gone — poof.

Courtney Love may be a lot of things, but a murderess she isn't.

P.S. Handwriting analysis is not a legitimate science. And, it is only admissible in a court of law if the the person giving the testimony is deemed an "expert" in the field (however one would qualify that); presumably by the judge and is agreed to by both the prosecution and defense.

Furthermore, one cannot solely base their decision on the guilt or innocence of someone based on handwriting analysis. I think that's just foolish, I'm sorry.

I'm not saying he was murdered, and if he was, I'm not saying Courtney did it. In fact, I highly doubt she did. I just find it curious about the note, though. I agree that handwriting analysis is not an exact science. However, if those two notes are what we are to believe they are (a Courtney sample and the suicide note), then it is obvious to the naked eye that the same person wrote them... or that someone went way out of there way to make us think that was the case. The samples are dead-on matches in so many areas. I am no expert but you don't need to be to see the similarities. (Look at the Fs, Ps, and Es alone.)

I do think he was depressed and that he had a lot of reasons to commit suicide. However, that alone doesn't mean he did (again, I think he did, too). But to ignore this evidence is crazy. I'd love to know more about these samples.

I'm not saying he was murdered, and if he was, I'm not saying Courtney did it. In fact, I highly doubt she did. I just find it curious about the note, though. I agree that handwriting analysis is not an exact science. However, if those two notes are what we are to believe they are (a Courtney sample and the suicide note), then it is obvious to the naked eye that the same person wrote them... or that someone went way out of there way to make us think that was the case. The samples are dead-on matches in so many areas. I am no expert but you don't need to be to see the similarities. (Look at the Fs, Ps, and Es alone.)

I do think he was depressed and that he had a lot of reasons to commit suicide. However, that alone doesn't mean he did (again, I think he did, too). But to ignore this evidence is crazy. I'd love to know more about these samples.

There are similarities, certainly. But, to me, for every similarity there are some that could go either way and even more that I would say "no" to.

The Cobain suicide note has been public pretty much ever since his death. The 1998 documentary KURT & COURTNEY by Nick Broomfield sort of covers similar ground to SOAKED IN BLEACH, if I'm not mistaken. It has been nearly 20 years since I saw that film but IIRC the overarching theory is that Courtney was somehow involved in his death.

For pure docudrama entertainment, Gus Van Sant's LAST DAYS (2005) is a very well made film, unfairly maligned I think. Although, it only deals in parallels and is in no way intended as a biopic. The cast is stellar.

Back to the topic at hand, sorry for digressing. I just think that, if there were any possible reason for law enforcement to have suspected anything other than a suicide, they would have pursued that. Can you imagine being the detective that uncovered a murder covered up as a suicide of a famous musician? That's the kind of thing that could make a career. I hate to say it that way, but it's true.

The fact that LE never felt there was sufficient evidence to pursue this as anything but a suicide is reason enough to not suspect anything other than that, for me. Another thing to note is that, those closest to Kurt — while quite often not having anything positive to say about Love — have never indicated a suspicion of her involvement in his death.

If there is hard, credible evidence, I'm open-minded enough to hear it. I hate to sound like a killjoy.

I've always felt that Grant was just an opportunistic attention-seeker.

The samples provided of her writing and the suicide note do look roughly similar, but Cobain's other handwriting samples frankly also look quite a bit like the suicide note too. Both of them had sloppy handwriting that had the same kind of unkemptness, which is why a couple of years ago there a bunch of hoopla circulating on the internet about a sarcastic note found in Cobain's belongings that people wrongly attributed to him (it said something along the lines of his wife being a "bitch with zits siphoning his money"), when in fact Courtney had written it poking fun at herself and the way the media treated her. It's a fact that both Kurt and Courtney despised the press and reporters in the last year of his life, especially after Vanity Fair's cover story in 1992. Courtney knew how she was portrayed and so did Kurt, and I know it hurt them both.

What does this have to do with Unsolved Mysteries?

What does this have to do with Unsolved Mysteries?

Season 9, Episode 11, Segment 4.

The idea that this man was not depressed is frankly, laughable. One need only to listen to the music and in particular, his lyrics, to hear the private thoughts of a man with some deeply rooted troubles.


That's the chief reason I remain so baffled by the "Kurt was murdered" conspiracy theories. Apparently the idea of a guy with a major drug problem, a documented history of mental illness, and a record of previous attempts, committing suicide is just entirely inexplicable. :rolleyes:

To be fair, I've heard that this is a common phenomenon in law enforcement: no matter how much evidence supporting it, family and friends often will not accept the ruling of suicide. They will ignore all the evidence pointing to suicide and focus on one weird oddity like the deceased was found wearing only one shoe.

Speaking as someone with mental illness, when I'm deep in the grips of depression, I often have a difficult time understanding my own actions, let alone trying to explain them to others. I can only imagine how bizarre it must look to someone with only a layman's knowledge of mental illness.

That's the chief reason I remain so baffled by the "Kurt was murdered" conspiracy theories. Apparently the idea of a guy with a major drug problem, a documented history of mental illness, and a record of previous attempts, committing suicide is just entirely inexplicable. :rolleyes:


Bingo.

Also, a misogynist streak ran through most theories that implicate Courtney Love based on her, to be kind, instability. Many rock fans (male, naturally) derive comfort from assuming wives and girlfriends are gold diggers who want their spouses/boyfriends dead or at least profit off them. Yoko Ono has endured this BS for years too.

He killed himself. I don't know how that isn't obvious. I think the private investigator is genuine in his beliefs but he's way off base. Kurt had quite a few close calls with death by ODing but survived, the last time just a month before in Rome. He bought the shot gun to make sure he wouldn't survive. He had a very high tolerance and he shot himself within seconds of injecting himself to make sure he wouldn't pass out before he was able to shoot himself. Courtney Love and Kurt were both highly dysfunctional drug addicts entangled in a codependent toxic relationship not unlike Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown. Of course Courtney was manipulating, lying, and narrassistic. That's drug addict behavior not to mention being a celebrity who is use to getting her way. Anyone who knows anything about addiction can see Courtney's behavior is quite common in someone who's addicted, battling mental health issues and an enabled narrassistic celebrity. She's not a killer.

His lyrics, interviews, long standing heroin addiction, intentional overdosing incidents prior, fleeing rehab, buying the shot gun just before being forced against his will into rehab ect.

Also his remark in an interview that his stomach pain was gone due to "new medication." was Kurt being a smart ass. The medication he was referring to was heroin. The documentary could never even say or interview anyone who could say Kurt was actually on a prescriped medication for his stomach pain.

Season 9, Episode 11, Segment 4.

Didn't know that the show focused on celebrities.

Didn't know that the show focused on celebrities.

Kurt Cobain, Elvis Presley, Bruce and Brandon Lee, and Bobby Fuller were all subjects. Jon Bon Jovi and Henry Rollins were both interviewed for segments, too.

I understand where most people are coming from when they immediately say "suicide" and think of his past drug use and past overdoses, etc.. and think this is crazy to even consider homicide. However, I have researched this case heavily, read the books, reports and watched the documentaries. There are many things that make you think...and that make it seem like a staged suicide could be very plausible. Just a few off the top of my head:

- Past overdoses: These have come into question in the readings, to where these may not have been caused by Kurt, but by Courtney or someone else.

- Divorce: It sounds like Kurt was going to leave Courtney, which would have hurt her career, I feel, I think she has everything to gain by having Kurt dead (which she has gained from in the years since, having the rights to some of his assets, music, etc...)

There are many other inconsistencies that do make you think, those are just a couple off the top of my head.

No offense -- we're all spitballin' here -- but the idea of a second or third party causing an overdose defies comprehension. I'll grant you that Cobain may have wanted to divorce Love, but this still isn't a motive. An addict herself, Love would have to have been a Stalin-esque genius to pull off an operation like this.

He may have planned to divorce Love and maybe she was mad about it, but neither of those things mean anything if there's no solid, physical evidence supporting a homicide.

I was never a Nirvana fan. Alice in Chains and Soundgarden were my faves from that Seattle scene. I was in class in 8th grade when someone said he died. I didn't really care. Even as an 8th grader I thought he'd die sooner or later. Now Chris Cornell and Layne Staley are gone as well. Anyone that thinks Cobains death wasn't a suicide is woefully naive.

I understand where most people are coming from when they immediately say "suicide" and think of his past drug use and past overdoses, etc.. and think this is crazy to even consider homicide. However, I have researched this case heavily, read the books, reports and watched the documentaries. There are many things that make you think...and that make it seem like a staged suicide could be very plausible. Just a few off the top of my head:

- Past overdoses: These have come into question in the readings, to where these may not have been caused by Kurt, but by Courtney or someone else.

- Divorce: It sounds like Kurt was going to leave Courtney, which would have hurt her career, I feel, I think she has everything to gain by having Kurt dead (which she has gained from in the years since, having the rights to some of his assets, music, etc...)

There are many other inconsistencies that do make you think, those are just a couple off the top of my head.

I always look at his band mates particularly novaselec who is very intelligent...has gone on record several times stating that the conspiracy theory is BS and Kurt was suicidal and took his own life.

I was never a Nirvana fan. Alice in Chains and Soundgarden were my faves from that Seattle scene. I was in class in 8th grade when someone said he died. I didn't really care. Even as an 8th grader I thought he'd die sooner or later. Now Chris Cornell and Layne Staley are gone as well. Anyone that thinks Cobains death wasn't a suicide is woefully naive.
They were all different. I think chris Cornell runs circles around lane and Kurt as a singer. AliceNchains was my favorite when I was a kid. Obviously alice and soundgarden had longevity to some degree and might have more street cred in The rock scene for not being "pop"

I like them all. nirvana is more popular world wide even now imo.

They were all different. I think chris Cornell runs circles around lane and Kurt as a singer. AliceNchains was my favorite when I was a kid. Obviously alice and soundgarden had longevity to some degree and might have more street cred in The rock scene for not being "pop"

I like them all. nirvana is more popular world wide even now imo.

I dont know how many people would say Jerry Cantrell writes and plays "pop" music.

Jerry Cantrell is the best songwriter from that Seattle scene.

Chris Cornell was the best singer from that Seattle scene.

Pearl Jam was the most commercially successful band from that Seattle scene.

Yet, Nirvana still gets the most attention out of all of them. 🤔

I’d rank the “Big 4” Seattle bands as such:

1- Alice In Chains
2- Soundgarden
.
.
.
.
.
3- Pearl Jam
.
.
.
.
.
4- Nirvana

The first two are very close, but the gaps between 3 and 4 are quite wide IMO.

I dont know how many people would say Jerry Cantrell writes and plays "pop" music.
Not I. That was referred to nirvana who seemed to battle that label in spite of it serving them well.

Jerry Cantrell is the best songwriter from that Seattle scene.

Chris Cornell was the best singer from that Seattle scene.

Pearl Jam was the most commercially successful band from that Seattle scene.

Yet, Nirvana still gets the most attention out of all of them. 🤔

I’d rank the “Big 4” Seattle bands as such:

1- Alice In Chains
2- Soundgarden
.
.
.
.
.
3- Pearl Jam
.
.
.
.
.
4- Nirvana

The first two are very close, but the gaps between 3 and 4 are quite wide IMO.
I like that.

Bingo.

Also, a misogynist streak ran through most theories that implicate Courtney Love based on her, to be kind, instability. Many rock fans (male, naturally) derive comfort from assuming wives and girlfriends are gold diggers who want their spouses/boyfriends dead or at least profit off them. Yoko Ono has endured this BS for years too.

I hate to cry "misogny," but I think it's indisputable that that is a large part of the Courtney bashing that's gone one for two decades now. She was an addict as well as we all know (though there's an argument to be made that Kurt was the far greater one), and she's also an eccentric and a bit of an egomaniac—throw someone like that into a situation like this, and it's not surprising that people are going to blame her for his death, directly or indirectly.

As I think I've said before, I am a fan of both of their bands, though Hole is hands-down my favorite musical group ever; Nirvana is more hit-and-miss for me, though their/Kurt's cultural importance and his songwriting is undeniable.

Agree 100 percent.

I hate to cry "misogny," but I think it's indisputable that that is a large part of the Courtney bashing that's gone one for two decades now. She was an addict as well as we all know (though there's an argument to be made that Kurt was the far greater one), and she's also an eccentric and a bit of an egomaniac—throw someone like that into a situation like this, and it's not surprising that people are going to blame her for his death, directly or indirectly.

As I think I've said before, I am a fan of both of their bands, though Hole is hands-down my favorite musical group ever; Nirvana is more hit-and-miss for me, though their/Kurt's cultural importance and his songwriting is undeniable.

Agree 100 percent.