This may sound like a blasphemy to many TMTMS fans, but I actually prefer the post-Rhoda years to the Rhoda years. The interactions between Mary and the rest of the newsroom staff are generally my favorite part of the show, and the post-Rhoda years featured these scenes more often. In my opinion, TMTMS got better as the years went by, something you can't say about a majority of shows.

Originally posted by MLB
This may sound like a blasphemy to many TMTMS fans, but I actually prefer the post-Rhoda years to the Rhoda years. The interactions between Mary and the rest of the newsroom staff are generally my favorite part of the show, and the post-Rhoda years featured these scenes more often. In my opinion, TMTMS got better as the years went by, something you can't say about a majority of shows.

That's not blasphemy! IMO, the later years and the earlier years were the same in quality. It's just a matter of personal preference as far as which you like better. I personally prefer the Rhoda years, but then I'm also a big Valerie Harper fan! LOL

Kristen

Originally posted by MLB
This may sound like a blasphemy to many TMTMS fans, but I actually prefer the post-Rhoda years to the Rhoda years. The interactions between Mary and the rest of the newsroom staff are generally my favorite part of the show, and the post-Rhoda years featured these scenes more often. In my opinion, TMTMS got better as the years went by, something you can't say about a majority of shows.

I agree. The later years seemed much better.

Geez, am I the only person who likes the earlier seasons better?? LOL

Kristen

I would have to say I liked both, I thought Rhoda was really funny although I notice in the later years the cast seems more relaxed. :lol:

I have to say I liked the early years best. I really did not watch MTM much after 1974.

Originally posted by Tiger32
I have to say I liked the early years best. I really did not watch MTM much after 1974.

I don't like the episodes from the first season at all. Whenever I see one of those on I turn the channel. It got better starting in the second season. I never found the Rhoda character very funny though. I like the show much better with her gone. I agree with the person who said the show got better the longer it was on. When it started, Mary was too cutesy and perfect and goodie goodie. By the end she could speak her mind and even stand up to Sue Ann and tell her to go shove it. And Ted became a real character, not the quick walk-on say a line and leave cartoon he was the first year. Ditzy Georgette was also very funny and Sue Ann was hilarious. But they were nowhere to be seen the first couple years. The best season was the last one.

I agree with you on the first season JaneTVFan. It was nice to see Mary more embolden as the series went on. I do think that the episodes got better when Sue Ann turned up as well.

The first season the show was shaping and the characters were developing. If you recall, Mary Richards had no experience in a newsroom so she was on new ground. But each season you saw Mary blossoming into her own. My favorite was the opening of Season Three, "The Good Time News." She painted Lou Grant into a corner when she wanted to same exact pay as the previous person who held her job as associate producer. She did not back down and got what she wanted. It was great when she told Ted to shut up on TV. Actually that was my favorite episode. Actually that season, 72-73, when the show began to hit its stride. Actually my favorite seasons were 72-73, 73-74, 74-75, and 75-76. Two of those seasons were with Rhoda and Phyllis, one with very little Phyllis after Rhoda left and the final without either one. But the episodes were funny and very intelligent humor. I long to see that in today's sitcoms.

Originally posted by Kristen
Geez, am I the only person who likes the earlier seasons better?? LOL

Kristen

No! I love all the episodes so I don't have a preference on season. And I do love the fact that Betty White joined the cast as Sue Ann, but sad that in the later seasons Rhoda left, but hey what can you do? :wave:

Originally posted by mstewart
The first season the show was shaping and the characters were developing. If you recall, Mary Richards had no experience in a newsroom so she was on new ground. But each season you saw Mary blossoming into her own. My favorite was the opening of Season Three, "The Good Time News." She painted Lou Grant into a corner when she wanted to same exact pay as the previous person who held her job as associate producer. She did not back down and got what she wanted. It was great when she told Ted to shut up on TV.

I couldn't agree more, mstewart!! "The Good-Time News" is one of my favorites as well. The scene where Mary asks for equal pay is great in that it does make a statement about feminism, but at the same time, it's totally in character for Lou and Mary. You can tell that the writers really cared about these characters!

Kristen

Originally posted by mstewart
The first season the show was shaping and the characters were developing. If you recall, Mary Richards had no experience in a newsroom so she was on new ground. But each season you saw Mary blossoming into her own. My favorite was the opening of Season Three, "The Good Time News." She painted Lou Grant into a corner when she wanted to same exact pay as the previous person who held her job as associate producer. She did not back down and got what she wanted. It was great when she told Ted to shut up on TV. Actually that was my favorite episode. Actually that season, 72-73, when the show began to hit its stride. Actually my favorite seasons were 72-73, 73-74, 74-75, and 75-76. Two of those seasons were with Rhoda and Phyllis, one with very little Phyllis after Rhoda left and the final without either one. But the episodes were funny and very intelligent humor. I long to see that in today's sitcoms.

Oh my God! Are you me? :eek: You've crystalized my sentiments exactly. For me, TMTMS is actually one big season spanning 168 episodes. :lol:

I think you really nailed the meatiest portion of the series, MStewart. IMO, season 3 marked the show's transformation from "goodness" to "greatness". The seeds were planted in 1 & 2, the crop was reaped the following 5 years (and beyond!) and ended exactly on cue. Perfect!

Originally posted by Kristen
Geez, am I the only person who likes the earlier seasons better?? LOL

Kristen

Nope, because I like them better too! When they had Val on as Rhoda. She's one of my fave characters!:)

I agree the show was not nearly as good in the first 2 to 3 years as it was later on. The news room just started to get more air time, and that's the highlight of the show. And I like Mr. grant better later on. And of course the addition of Sue Ann Nivens. And Mary get's better too. The only two characters who i think hit their stride Right from THE BEGINING were Ted and Murry.

I can't choose. I likke how when Phyllis and Rhoda left that Mary interactred more with the newsroom people, which was hillarious *cough*ted*cough*; but also, Rhoda was funny, and Phyllis was such an idiot, lol.

I Preferred the Rhoda, Phyliss years. I didn't care for the Sue Ann or Georgette years.

1970-1974

I liked the newsroom scenes better in the later years but Mary with Rhoda and Phyllis was just awesome and it was even better when Rhoda & Phyllis interacted with the newsroom gang. "The Mary Tyler Moore Show" didn't dip A LOT over the end of its run like several shows do, but it wasn't as good as the earlier episodes

It's really interesting. I can enjoy any episode of MTM. In the first few years, Mary was a goody two-shoe, and Rhoda was jealous of her looks. Also, Ted was a one-joke character early on. In my mind, only Lou and Murray stood out early. By 1972, Mary would finally start to speak her mind out. Rhoda and Mary at that time were great friends, and I don't mind Phyllis either. With seasons 3 and 4, I like those the most. Rhoda was my favorite character (Valerie is funny), In 1974, she went to New York for her own series I enjoy Valerie more on Rhoda than on MTM. As for the Minneapolis crew she left behind, Sue Ann did a good job to fill Rhoda's shoes as a Happy Homemaker. Mary was not afraid to speak out to anybody, even Lou Grant. Also, Ted matured, and would marry Georgette, another latecomer. In my mind, MTM has one of the best ensembles in history, and it's no surprise they won 29 Emmys. To top it off, I enjoy the early years when it was Mary and Rhoda, and the later years with Mary and the newsroom.

I prefer the Sue Ann/Georgette years.
Rhoda was my least favorite part of MTM.

from 1970-1977' Mary Tyler Moore Show was one of the best Sitcoms not of the 1970's but in television history...

Between 1970 and 1974.

Originally posted by Mrs. R.N.HARRIS
from 1970-1977' Mary Tyler Moore Show was one of the best Sitcoms not of the 1970's but in television history... :nod:
I prefer 1970-1974.

I prefer the earlier years. I love Rhoda and Phyliss, and Mary's first apartment was just so nifty. I loved that you could see the change of seasons represented outside her great big windows!

The latter seasons suffered from, IMO, too much Ted. Ted was funny, but he was better in small doses. Also, Mary's second apartment seemed so cold and uninviting.

I completely agree with ya on every word you said about the apartments, and the Rhoda/Phyllis comment (their relationship and interaction was so intriguing!). :cool:

Though I do have to say, the later years gave me Sue Ann Nivens! :D

If only Sue Ann were there from the beginnin', it'd be even easier to say "the early years", lol. :p

This is difficult, I think both periods were great in their own way. Personally, I think the last two to three years were funnier, and I liked the way the characters at WJM were developed, especially Mr. Grant. I also enjoyed Sue Ann.
However, I wasn't as crazy about Georgette, and I think after Rhoda left, she was really featured way too often, rather than finding another friend for Mary.
I also feel the show lost a certain amount of a certain "feel good" charm that it had in the earlier years, but it would turn up every now & then, like in the episode where Edie gets remarried.

Yeah, I wish Sue Ann had been on for the series' entire run, too. She was really great! I hope her seasons make it to DVD eventually. :happyface

Love Sue Ann and always been a Betty White fan because without her being the ultimate bad girl, the show would be, well, boring!! Mary was like the good girl, of course!!

My favorite season would be the 1970-1971 season. I loved the theme opening, the eps. It was like a new, fresh beginning.

Originally posted by ThomasE
My favorite season would be the 1970-1971 season. I loved the theme opening, the eps. It was like a new, fresh beginning.

it WAS a new, fresh beginning!
it was the first season!

I haven't seen enough episodes to REALLY tell but from what I have seen, the earlier years just because of Rhoda :D Although I am intrigued about Sue Ann from what I've read (they've just never had one of her episodes on tv yet though :()

They've played episodes with Sue Ann in it here in Australia, but only on cable, she is pretty funny. I did like Rhoda though, but I also love Georgia Engel (spelling), she is great in Everybody Loves Raymond

Don't tell me it's on cable :( I'm relying on free-to-air and they are very haphazard, it's quite a thrill to wonder what today's episode will be ;)

Originally posted by flagler
I did like Rhoda though, but I also love Georgia Engel (spelling), she is great in Everybody Loves Raymond

She has such a distinctive voice, lol. My mother heard her say like 3 words and immediately knew who it was! I don't watch enough Raymond but I caught an episode that same night with her in it and - wow, there's the voice again!

Originally posted by barwars88
it WAS a new, fresh beginning!
it was the first season!

THAT is why I like it! It appeals to me most. New start for a 30 year old moving to a new town. Starting over. The theme song. It's terrific.

I had been wanting to buy some TV DVD's of older classics, starting from season 1 so I could watch them in order and see the development of the show and its characters. Then I discovered Hulu.com so I have been watching (for free :) ) S1 of MTM. Some of the early eps were pretty bad and I almost didn't want to watch another but then the next one would always take a big step forward. I had forgotten how early the show began...I was quite young in 1970 (still during Vietnam) and frankly don't recall if we were watching it yet in our home. But I remember well a few years later the Sat. evening MTM/Newhart/Carol Burnett lineup. Hulu also has the Bob Newhart show and Dick Van Dyke so I have watched a few of those also. It's interesting that Gavin McCloud originally tryed out as Lou Grant but then asked to read for the part of Murray. Hard to imagine any other actors playing those roles than the ones who did.

Wow, kudos Rerunner. If I'm reading this right, you pulled back up this thread that had kind of stopped in 2004, and it's a GREAT question! As a relative newbie on here, I've gone back to read/comment on many of the earlier threads but I must have missed this one.

Well (trying to keep this somewhat short), I consider it one great series from 1970-77, but obviously 1974 is kind of the line of demarcation between the Rhoda-Phyllis years and the Sue Ann-Georgette years.

1970-74: I agree with those who say the first season took a while to get going, but the payoff came in the rest of the seasons...With Mary and Rhoda having such a great friendship, and Phyllis always butting in, it seemed much more focused on Mary's personal life. I'm a guy, but even I could appreciate those relationships, and they helped make you care about these people -- they were so real!...The apartment was MUCH better! I know why they changed later on, but the first one was fantastic, especially when it was snowing in the background.

1974-77: Loses points for the purposes of this thread only because 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment hasn't come out with Seasons 5-7 so you forget some things, but all three of the last seasons won Emmys...Much more about Mary's work life, with Sue Ann a fantastic addition as she and Murray jousted. Wholesome Betty White playing a sharp-tongued, sex-starved character was inspired!...Although they did personalize Ted, he still had that huge ego that meant he was always coming out with hilarious stuff...Lou and Murray were funny throughout, so I think the newsroom got more laughs overall...All the characters had hit their stride by the last few years; it was a pleasure to watch on Saturday nights.

The verdict: Actually, I might have voted 1973-75, when all the characters were kind of mixed in, but that wasn't the question. So, drumroll please...the winner is...I have to go with 1974-77, since I am in journalism and always enjoyed the work scenes. But just as The Dick Van Dyke Show says 1960s to me, The Mary Tyler Moore Show says 1970s, especially those early years.

Really, it was a fantastic show all the way through, and will be my favorite for all time. And it was the great Mary Tyler Moore who made the whole thing work.

I guess I did a search for 'associate producer', trying to find some info and found this older thread. Did MR ever get a promotion in her 7 years at WJW-TV? Who was actually the Producer ... was that Lou? There's no title on his office door. Another thing that gets me is his 'office' is more like a large cubicle...the walls don't extend to the ceiling so anyone would be able to hear what's going on inside. That was a low budget set for sure, almost all of the workplace action took place between Murray's desk, Mary's desk and Lou's office. I guess that shows the strength of the writing and characters tho.

Yes, in Season 5, Mary is promoted to producer. I believe it first happens in "An Affair to Forget," and in "Mary Richards: Producer," she actually produces her first news show. Lou was the original producer, in fact I believe he promoted Mary so that he could promote himself to News Director. I haven't watched these eps. in forever, so my memory may be fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure that's how it happened.

- Kristen

That's a tough one, and one I hope to answer for myself when the later seasons FINALLY come out (when, Fox, when?). I love Rhoda so much (Phyllis, too), so I am a bit apprehensive about seeing these later episodes without them, save for the odd cameo. But the funny thing is, it WASN'T necessarily a shark jump, and some people make it sound like the best is yet to come; i.e. Chuckles Bites The Dust, the finale, etc. Goes to show the staying power of a good idea, and its ability to weather the changes?

And while I'll miss Rhoda and Phyllis, you know...SUE ANN. (Georgette, not so much, from what I saw on the first four seasons, she is more cartoony than the other characters. Kind of like why I never accepted Charles Winchester)

P.S. when we get the rest of MTM out, can we PLEASE get Rhoda too?

I know I say it a lot on here, but anybody who hasn't seen the last 3 seasons, yes, the best IS yet to come! It is different without Rhoda and Phyllis, there's no getting around that. But the tradeoff is that the writers focus more on the relationships in the newsroom. I think some of the best stuff came out of that.

From what I remember of the last 3 seasons, I always enjoyed those more than the first four. Not that there is anything wrong with seasons 1-4, but most of my favorite shows are in the last 3 seasons? Besides Chuckles we get Ted and Georgette's wedding (with John Ritter), Lou and Mary on their date, the final show, the adoptions of Murray's son (as well as Ted and Georgette adopting), the holiday party hosted by Sue Ann, the final show, and my all time favorite when Sue Ann's sister visits (with the vibrating bed and Ted fixing his hat in the mirrors on the ceiling).

Yeah, as Benno elaborates above, the last three seasons had some of the best episodes. And I think there's been a TMTMS "Jump the Shark" thread that I didn't respond to, but I'll say it here...I don't think TMTMS shark-jumped AT ALL in Seasons 5-7.

OK, you lost Rhoda and Phyllis, which took some getting used to, but you gained Sue Ann and Georgette, more work plots, and already-developed characters.

Now that's not saying the series didn't end at the right time, and that if they kept doing episodes like "Mary's Three Husbands" and "Mary Dates Lou", that it wouldn't have started to SEEM like a shark jump. 'Cause to me those eps were close...but by the end of the run they'd earned a few of those fun/fantasy outings.

I think MANY of the shows in the last three seasons were memorable, they ALL had three or four great laughs, and the show went seven years, which was the PERFECT length. One wouldn't have expected anything else from a company that cared too much about its show to let it deteriorate!

I have to go with the early years since I've seen very little of the later years. Plus I liked the first apartment much better!! I think that was as much of a character as Mary, Rhoda, Lou, etc.

And don't forget in the 7th season you had guest star Johnny Carson making a grand entrance that only Johnny could do!!!! (Haha, for those who have seen the episode they should know my little inside joke about his guest appearance! I won't spoil it for those who don't know.)

And don't forget in the 7th season you had guest star Johnny Carson making a grand entrance that only Johnny could do!!!! (Haha, for those who have seen the episode they should know my little inside joke about his guest appearance! I won't spoil it for those who don't know.)
Haha yes, that's one of my all-time fave episodes. Classic moment there.

- Kristen

Kristen, help me out on this .... was Betty Ford on the MTM Show in a cameo? I know in the final season someone big (besides Johnny!) was on the show but I can't remember who. Help me out!!! Thanks :)

And the other great scene we can't overlook is when Mary is taking a bath and Lou walks in! The way he just sits down on the toilet like it was a chair and he's telling Mary how worried he was always cracks me up! A very funny moment in a very serious subject matter.

Kristen, help me out on this .... was Betty Ford on the MTM Show in a cameo? I know in the final season someone big (besides Johnny!) was on the show but I can't remember who. Help me out!!! Thanks :)


Yes, she was in "The Seminar," from Season 6. Lou and Mary went to DC for some broadcasting seminar, and she came to a party Lou threw in his hotel room.

The other episode you mentioned, "Mary's Insomnia," is one of my faves. The bathtub scene is unforgettable! It used to be on Youtube, but it got taken down. I saved it from there, if anyone wants it. Just contact me privately. :)

- Kristen

Thanks, Kristen! I thought it was Betty Ford, but then I thought maybe it was Lillian Carter or Roslyn Carter. (Lillian was on Lucille Ball's 1977 TV special). Thanks for the help!

Happy Thanksgiving!