So we all know that UM often tried to play-up the more "mysterious" or "sinister" side of a mystery, when there was frequently a different explanation. Out of all the cases profiled on UM, were any of the following actually proven to have happened?

-genuine satanic cult involvement in a crime?

-a missing person who actually ran away to start a new life?

-government conspiracy/coverup of either a crime or some unexplained phenomenon?

-a missing person who really did "run off with another man/woman" as per their guilty-looking spouse?

The only one I can think of offhand is Gail Delano, who was thought to be missing but really did disappear voluntarily....but it was to (unfortunately) commit suicide rather than "start a new life."

So we all know that UM often tried to play-up the more "mysterious" or "sinister" side of a mystery, when there was frequently a different explanation. Out of all the cases profiled on UM, were any of the following actually proven to have happened?

-genuine satanic cult involvement in a crime?-- I can't think of one where it's been PROVEN outright. I think UM ran a lot with the Satanic Panic of the 1980's.

-a missing person who actually ran away to start a new life?-- I would argue that Arthur "Paul" Beale did this, as he was facing criminal charges at the time of his "amnesia." I could say the same for Craig Williamson. Although it's never been proved, it seemed to me that he wanted out of a marriage and staged his disappearance.

-government conspiracy/coverup of either a crime or some unexplained phenomenon?-- Again, not proven. However, I think there are MAJOR questions with Keith Warren, The Boys on the Tracks, and Danny Casolario, just to name a few.

-a missing person who actually ran away to start a new life?


I can't think of any UM examples off the top of my head, but Michele Whittaker was an example from Disappeared. She took advantage of circumstances to start a new life and was happily living said life, not knowing that her parents and the police looking for her, thought she was dead.

-a missing person who actually ran away to start a new life

Alex Cooper, the elderly British Columbia man who ran away because he had been living under a false identity for decades to escape a robbery charge from the late 1940s and was worried about his secret being discovered (even though the statute of limitations for the crime was long expired). He was eventually found alive and reunited with his family.

There's also Scott Hill, who ran away from his family to escape financial problems. He turned out to be alive and it ended up being the most awkward reunion ever on UM since he clearly only resurfaced because he wound up being the recipient of a $750,000 inheritance.

There's also Scott Hill, who ran away from his family to escape financial problems. He turned out to be alive and it ended up being the most awkward reunion ever on UM since he clearly only resurfaced because he wound up being the recipient of a $750,000 inheritance.

That guy was one lucky bastard to pull all of the stunts he did and wind up with an inheritance AND his family back. I think I've made my disgust of him pretty well known on here.

I think there were a lot of genuine cases in each category.

Satanic angle.

-I think the grandmother of Jared Peters would qualify. She had a videotape on it, so I think it's safe to say she practiced it.

-the killers of Pam and Erik Ellender.

-Ann Sigmin.

Government cover-up.

-I'm willing to bet quite a few here, but since it's a cover-up, we'll never know for sure.

Running off to start a new life with a new man, etc.

-I think people like Diane Broadbeck, Kay Beeman and others of this ilk would qualify.

I wanna see the Scott hill segment. Also what was the boys on the tracks?

The boys on the track would be the murder of Don Henry and Kevin Ives. Originally the police believed their death was the result of drug usage, but later after a second (I believe) autopsy it was changed to homicide.

Alex Cooper, the elderly British Columbia man who ran away because he had been living under a false identity for decades to escape a robbery charge from the late 1940s and was worried about his secret being discovered (even though the statute of limitations for the crime was long expired). He was eventually found alive and reunited with his family.

And the runaway theory was the strongest lead because he had disappeared again as soon as he was identified. His wife even commented on it saying, "If he's hiding/running away, he needs to stop. He's got this family who loves him and needs him."

So we all know that UM often tried to play-up the more "mysterious" or "sinister" side of a mystery, when there was frequently a different explanation. Out of all the cases profiled on UM, were any of the following actually proven to have happened?

-genuine satanic cult involvement in a crime?

-a missing person who actually ran away to start a new life?

-government conspiracy/coverup of either a crime or some unexplained phenomenon?

-a missing person who really did "run off with another man/woman" as per their guilty-looking spouse?

The only one I can think of offhand is Gail Delano, who was thought to be missing but really did disappear voluntarily....but it was to (unfortunately) commit suicide rather than "start a new life."


I personally think UM made the entire Kurt Sova story to be far more sinister than what it actually was. A kid drinks far too much booze at a party and dies of alcoholic poisoning. Loser friends freak out and cover up his body.

I was watching a news story last night on those two escaped convicts and the woman that may have helped them, and they mentioned Bobbi Parker. The reporter said that she fell in love with Randolph Dial and willingly left her husband to be with him. I know there's some argument as to whether she did leave of her own accord.

I was watching a news story last night on those two escaped convicts and the woman that may have helped them, and they mentioned Bobbi Parker. The reporter said that she fell in love with Randolph Dial and willingly left her husband to be with him. I know there's some argument as to whether she did leave of her own accord.


I was literally just telling two coworkers about Bobbi today because of those escapees!

I personally think UM made the entire Kurt Sova story to be far more sinister than what it actually was. A kid drinks far too much booze at a party and dies of alcoholic poisoning. Loser friends freak out and cover up his body.

Yeah. I think he either drank too much or overdosed on some drug. Either way I think it was an accident and the other people panicked and dumped his body.

Yeah. I think he either drank too much or overdosed on some drug. Either way I think it was an accident and the other people panicked and dumped his body.

Dorothy Sova was a realist. You have to give her credit for that. She said in her interview that Kurt probably WAS drinking at the party, that he probably died at the party, the kids panicked and they dumped his body.

But she was lied to by multiple people, an eyewitness sighting was mistaken, a friend's story (leaving Kurt on the fence and disappearing within seconds) seems doubtful, a random stranger comments to the store clerk that the missing boy would be found dead and most frustrating of all, the autopsy came back with no evidence for the cause of death.

Had the autopsy come back with an actual cause of death (or if the police made any attempt to interrogate Susan) all the answers would be known in 1981 and the Sovas would have gotten closure from the onset.

I wanna see the Scott hill segment. Also what was the boys on the tracks?

PM me your address and I will send you Scott Hill and the update so you can see how much a ********* he is.

What about the other boy in Kurt Sova's area who died mysteriously and both were missing a right shoe which never turned up?

PM me your address and I will send you Scott Hill and the update so you can see how much a ********* he is.

I'd like to see this segment since Ive never seen it. I found some UM episodes (almost 20+ hours worth) on the site that shall not be mentioned but that case isnt on there...

I personally think UM made the entire Kurt Sova story to be far more sinister than what it actually was. A kid drinks far too much booze at a party and dies of alcoholic poisoning. Loser friends freak out and cover up his body.

I agree. UM had a tendency to do this kind of thing. I also think this could have been the case with Keith Warren. He drinks too much or has some sort of adverse reaction to drugs and dies. Then, his friends or people he was with make it look like a suicide.

In regards to the Satanic Cult issue, it was never proven but it's always been the only lead in the murders of Shane Stewart and Sally McNelly because...

- They had a nasty falling out when they decided to leave the cult because of criminal activity the cult was involved in. Criminal activity that was serious enough for Shane and Sally to call the police.

- Sally's phone call to her friend Helen saying she was afraid the cult members were going to try to kill her. Sure enough, in a matter of three weeks, she was dead.

So we all know that UM often tried to play-up the more "mysterious" or "sinister" side of a mystery, when there was frequently a different explanation. Out of all the cases profiled on UM, were any of the following actually proven to have happened?

-genuine satanic cult involvement in a crime?

-a missing person who actually ran away to start a new life?

-government conspiracy/coverup of either a crime or some unexplained phenomenon?

-a missing person who really did "run off with another man/woman" as per their guilty-looking spouse?

The only one I can think of offhand is Gail Delano, who was thought to be missing but really did disappear voluntarily....but it was to (unfortunately) commit suicide rather than "start a new life."

I'll have to think some more about this. Honestly, my kneejerk reactions/responses have already been mentioned - Alex Cooper and Scott Hill.

What I find interesting about these two guys is the seemingly "bad job" they did at disappearing. There were tons of verifiable, credible sightings (as opposed to some random truck driver who "thinks" they gave them a ride) and discernible patterns they left in the wake of their disappearances.

Contrast that to some other "missing" folks on UM whose cases were never solved and who seemingly left no trace at all when they vanished. It makes the "new life" theories look weak, to say the least.

I personally think UM made the entire Kurt Sova story to be far more sinister than what it actually was. A kid drinks far too much booze at a party and dies of alcoholic poisoning. Loser friends freak out and cover up his body.

The problem with that is the autopsy came back with a minimal level of alcohol in his system. If you die of a drug or alcohol overdose, at the moment of death all metabolic functions cease so whatever level of alcohol or drugs you have at the moment of death is detectable in your tissues. They do not continue to break down after the moment of death. So, if Kurt did die of a direct result of a drug or alcohol overdose they would have been found in the autopsy. However, that is IF the lab did not screw up. There have been cases where the labs mess up results (its rare but isn't impossible.)

So, unless the lab work was somehow botched, its impossible he died of a direct result from an alcohol or drug overdose. If the autopsy is correct he died only 24-48 hours before being found so he was alive for DAYS after the party Friday night. That doesn't fit with an acute drug or alcohol overdose at a party.

The case is strange on many levels. I don't believe foul play was involved as there was no trauma to the body. I am inclined to believe he became sick or took something that made him sick and ended up dying but due to the autopsy results he did not die of a direct result of an overdose. It is quite the mystery.

Lastly, I do believe the medical examiner missed something. It is pretty rare no cause of death can be found. Something wasn't detected or accounted for. So, it is possible the lab work wasn't correct then an OD would be possible but again, the lab work that was done then showed it didn't kill him.

The case is strange on many levels. I don't believe foul play was involved as there was no trauma to the body. I am inclined to believe he became sick or took something that made him sick and ended up dying but due to the autopsy results he did not die of a direct result of an overdose. It is quite the mystery.

While my gut tells me that there was no foul play and that Kurt died of an overdose or reaction to some kind of drug and those with him panicked and disposed of his body, I've never been able to reconcile one thing along those lines...the Crazy from Detroit.

The guy said that Kurt's body would be found and that no one would know how he died.

Granted, logic would dictate the guy was just some crackpot. However, it bothers me that his comment was shown to be accurate according to the autopsy findings, or lack thereof.

While my gut tells me that there was no foul play and that Kurt died of an overdose or reaction to some kind of drug and those with him panicked and disposed of his body, I've never been able to reconcile one thing along those lines...the Crazy from Detroit.

The guy said that Kurt's body would be found and that no one would know how he died.

Granted, logic would dictate the guy was just some crackpot. However, it bothers me that his comment was shown to be accurate according to the autopsy findings, or lack thereof.

He was probably just a local kid who was either at the party or knew someone who was. He probably heard rumors about Kurt's body being dumped.

I think it's obvious Kurt died by accident. That Susan woman who rented the apartment where the party was held contacted Kurt's mother out of what appears to be guilt, but never could quite seem to muster the courage just to come clean. (She is the one who made up a story about someone sleeping in her basement. I took this as her trying to tip off the mother).

However, if it is true that Kurt was sleeping in the basement or was sick for several days, it makes one wonder why she couldn't just call an ambulance and get him medical help. I mean what is there to hide if it really was an accident?

The only thing that makes sense is Kurt died rather suddenly and it was too late to call for help, so they panicked and dumped his body. Or perhaps he really was killed by some rowdy dudes at the party, but that seems unlikely based on the autopsy results (no trauma at all).

He was probably just a local kid who was either at the party or knew someone who was. He probably heard rumors about Kurt's body being dumped.

But the police apparently said he was from Detroit. Additionally, he knew facts about the case that a random person would not know.

I think it's obvious Kurt died by accident.

Considering no cause of death was ever determined, it's impossible to know.

That Susan woman who rented the apartment where the party was held contacted Kurt's mother out of what appears to be guilt, but never could quite seem to muster the courage just to come clean. (She is the one who made up a story about someone sleeping in her basement. I took this as her trying to tip off the mother).

But Mr. Sova went to the apartment and found evidence that someone had been sleeping in a cot downstairs in the basement.

However, if it is true that Kurt was sleeping in the basement or was sick for several days, it makes one wonder why she couldn't just call an ambulance and get him medical help. I mean what is there to hide if it really was an accident?

Underage drinking and the penalties associated with.

The only thing that makes sense is Kurt died rather suddenly and it was too late to call for help, so they panicked and dumped his body. Or perhaps he really was killed by some rowdy dudes at the party, but that seems unlikely based on the autopsy results (no trauma at all).

I need to rewatch the segment, so I'll have more on that later.

The problem with that is the autopsy came back with a minimal level of alcohol in his system. If you die of a drug or alcohol overdose, at the moment of death all metabolic functions cease so whatever level of alcohol or drugs you have at the moment of death is detectable in your tissues. They do not continue to break down after the moment of death. So, if Kurt did die of a direct result of a drug or alcohol overdose they would have been found in the autopsy. However, that is IF the lab did not screw up. There have been cases where the labs mess up results (its rare but isn't impossible.)

So, unless the lab work was somehow botched, its impossible he died of a direct result from an alcohol or drug overdose. If the autopsy is correct he died only 24-48 hours before being found so he was alive for DAYS after the party Friday night. That doesn't fit with an acute drug or alcohol overdose at a party.

The case is strange on many levels. I don't believe foul play was involved as there was no trauma to the body. I am inclined to believe he became sick or took something that made him sick and ended up dying but due to the autopsy results he did not die of a direct result of an overdose. It is quite the mystery.

Lastly, I do believe the medical examiner missed something. It is pretty rare no cause of death can be found. Something wasn't detected or accounted for. So, it is possible the lab work wasn't correct then an OD would be possible but again, the lab work that was done then showed it didn't kill him.

Excellent post.

The main consensus on the boards for some time regarding this case was that Kurt drank too much, passed out and the people at the party carried his body out to the ravine. However, I've always had several problems with that.

The main thing that gets me is this "Crazy from Detroit." Not only did he know WHEN Kurt's body would be found, but also knew no cause of death would be determined. And on top of that, and this never gets mentioned, but he *threatened* the record store lady. I just can't fathom why the police let this guy go after a little light questioning. Because I'm pretty sure threatening someone's life usually leads to at least an arrest. I believe he definitely knows something. There's no doubt the police bungled this case severely.

And then there's Eugene Kvet. This case has so many similarities to Kurt's death that they are impossible to ignore. They were both found very close to each other, both had been missing for some time, both had been found without their right shoe, etc. But I think it's safe to say Eugene didn't go out and drink at a party, so that makes the whole angle with Kurt dying of an alcohol overdose even harder to believe. Now I don't know if this was the work of some child molester with a foot fetish or what, but I think there was some creep operating in Newberg Heights at this time.

And then there's the eyewitness account of someone seeing Kurt on Monday morning, alive and healthy. I don't normally put much stock into eyewitness accounts, but considering a) this person knew Kurt, and b) that Kurt was apparently still alive at this point, I think there is a very real possibility this person did see Kurt.

Taking all these things into account, along with what you mentioned, I think it puts a very large hole in the "Kurt got drunk and died" theory.

Excellent post.

The main consensus on the boards for some time regarding this case was that Kurt drank too much, passed out and the people at the party carried his body out to the ravine. However, I've always had several problems with that.

The main thing that gets me is this "Crazy from Detroit." Not only did he know WHEN Kurt's body would be found, but also knew no cause of death would be determined. And on top of that, and this never gets mentioned, but he *threatened* the record store lady. I just can't fathom why the police let this guy go after a little light questioning. Because I'm pretty sure threatening someone's life usually leads to at least an arrest. I believe he definitely knows something. There's no doubt the police bungled this case severely.

And then there's Eugene Kvet. This case has so many similarities to Kurt's death that they are impossible to ignore. They were both found very close to each other, both had been missing for some time, both had been found without their right shoe, etc. But I think it's safe to say Eugene didn't go out and drink at a party, so that makes the whole angle with Kurt dying of an alcohol overdose even harder to believe. Now I don't know if this was the work of some child molester with a foot fetish or what, but I think there was some creep operating in Newberg Heights at this time.

And then there's the eyewitness account of someone seeing Kurt on Monday morning, alive and healthy. I don't normally put much stock into eyewitness accounts, but considering a) this person knew Kurt, and b) that Kurt was apparently still alive at this point, I think there is a very real possibility this person did see Kurt.

Taking all these things into account, along with what you mentioned, I think it puts a very large hole in the "Kurt got drunk and died" theory.

Thanks Wiseguy.

Yeah, it does create a huge hole. You can't die as a result of an overdose (alcohol, drugs or both) and not have it show up in your tissues. Again, I'm not confident the coroner's office didn't screw up this autopsy because I find it extremely odd no cause of death could be found at all.

Depends on the jurisdiction but since a coroner is an elected official, they could have absolutely no MD degree or forensic experience. I watched a documentary on this a few years back and its actually scary just how unqualified a coroner could be (dependent upon the state or jurisdiction). In the last few years they are slowly trying to change this but believe me there are a few jurisdictions where it leaves you scratching your head as to how this person is even qualified to be coroner (this is more prevalent in small or more rural areas)

Anyways, my point is who knows how good or competent that coroner was. If anyone has ever watched Dr. G Medical examiner or watched interviews with her, I highly doubt a great ME like herself would not be able to find the actual cause of death. Even if he died of natural causes like an undiagnosed medical problem that can definitely be determined especially because he had only been deceased for 24-48 hours so it wasn't like the remains were skeletonized where a cause of death can be much harder if not sometimes impossible. That is why I don't rule out a possible OD as I am not confident in the autopsy results at all. However, based on their results he could not have died of one.

Lastly, there was a minimal amount of alcohol found in his system. Alcohol can be detected in your system about 30 hours after your last drink. So, according to this autopsy,the earliest he could have died would have been Monday morning. Therefore, his last drink was not on Friday night but on Saturday night or later. If he died 24 hours prior to being found, his last drink would have been Sunday night or later. Again, it was a minimal amount so IF this lab work is correct, he did not die of an overdose. However, it does show he was alive well after Friday. It also demonstrates that he probably did not become seriously ill at the party Friday night (why would he have a few drinks in the days following if he was seriously ill on Friday?)

Again, since there was only was a minimal amount of alcohol in his system at the time of death, he didn't die of an OD and in the hours prior to his death wasn't drinking heavily. I tend to think he died Tuesday because of the call from the duplex as well as the body being easily visible where it was found. I think it was there less then a day. If that's true then his last drink was Sunday night or later.

I probably brought this up already in the 'Biggest WTF moments' thread but Susan's phone call to the Sovas in the middle of the night to tell them somebody might be sleeping in the cot in the basement and maybe it's Kurt...that's WTF times a million.

Dorothy's response on the phone was, "Why should I believe you after you've lied to me so many times?".

That's an understandable question. But I wish she had also said over the phone, "You think my son might be in your basement? O.K. I'll stay on the line while YOU go to YOUR basement and check. If someone is down there, describe him to me (clothes, hair, age) and if it sounds like Kurt, I'll be right over."

Seems to me Susan wanted to give the Sovas the impression that she cared (somewhat) but in reality that phone call was just to get one of them over to the house so they would know Kurt wasn't in the house and they wouldn't think that he had actually died there.

I probably brought this up already in the 'Biggest WTF moments' thread but Susan's phone call to the Sovas in the middle of the night to tell them somebody might be sleeping in the cot in the basement and maybe it's Kurt...that's WTF times a million.

Dorothy's response on the phone was, "Why should I believe you after you've lied to me so many times?".

That's an understandable question. But I wish she had also said over the phone, "You think my son might be in your basement? O.K. I'll stay on the line while YOU go to YOUR basement and check. If someone is down there, describe him to me (clothes, hair, age) and if it sounds like Kurt, I'll be right over."

Seems to me Susan wanted to give the Sovas the impression that she cared (somewhat) but in reality that phone call was just to get one of them over to the house so they would know Kurt wasn't in the house and they wouldn't think that he had actually died there.

The police REALLY dropped the ball in the investigation.

*You have a dead 17 year old otherwise healthy male who was missing for 5 days prior to his death.
*You know he was transported and dumped in the ravine.
*You have an autopsy that says he has only been dead for 24-48 hours. So that leaves 3-4 days where he was missing under odd circumstances.
*The coroner tells you according to their lab work he did not die of an overdose.
*You have Susan giving his parents inconsistent statements during the 3-4 days he's missing and according to the autopsy wasn't even dead yet.
*You have the bizarre call Susan made to the Sova's just before his body was found dumped in the ravine.
*Susan thinks someone is in her basement? Um, I'd definitely know if someone was in my basement. Secondly, if Kurt was unconscious and couldn't identify himself to Susan, why not just call 911 and say "There's an unresponsive person in my basement!". Third, how do you not know who is in your own place!?. The PD should've taken her in for some pretty intense interrogation about her story. This never happened. The focus should have been Susan. She knew Kurt's fate, whether was just a witness or not, she knew what happened. Maybe even offer her immunity from being prosecuted for whatever (even if just providing alcohol/drugs to Kurt). It seems like she had some conscience so to me that would've been the way to go.
*Even if this was an accidental death (I have nothing to say it was a murder), this wasn't investigated properly to determine what the hell happened and why.

His mother also did not seem naïve. She knew her son had probably been drinking if everyone else was. I highly doubt Kurt would voluntarily not return home in the 3-4 days he was alive but missing. Not even to change his clothes? His mother was frantically looking for him and had filed a police report. If Kurt frequently took off for days without his mother knowing where he was, why would she be in such a panic this time? It appears this was not normal for Kurt whether he occasionally drank or not. Those 3-4 days are incredibly bizarre.

This isn't an "obvious" case by any means. His death could've been accidental but according to their own lab reports it wasn't an overdose. It wasn't thoroughly investigated to give his parents closure and an idea of what happened to him in those days he was alive and missing.

I've mentioned this before, but I think Kurt was unconscious for 2 or 3 days before he died, so that would explain his lower BAC when the autopsy was done.

We know that he drank Everclear the day of the duplex party (either earlier in the day when he was skipping school, or at the party itself), so it's likely he either got sick from it or passed out and fell unconscious. We've mentioned before how we think he could have become unconscious instead of only being violently ill. He might have had an unusual undetected medical condition (that actually exists) where a person cannot extract alcohol (or large amounts) from their system once consuming it OR that someone might have lent him a Tylenol tablet or something of that nature shortly after he became violently ill from drinking and that taking a tablet like that while still under the influence can cause an adverse reaction and possible make someone pass out or fall unconscious.


As far as the question above regarding Eugene Kvet, he was found in a different area of that ravine: it is believed that he either accidentally fell off of a steep cliff in the area he was found or that he might have been pushed (possibly by members of a Newburgh Heights or greater Cleveland area gang at that time).

I don't think the two cases are related. Kurt's shoe was probably "missing" because the duplex people kept moving his body around to hide it from his parents on the occasions when they stopped by or it was lost when the two guys decided to move his body to the ravine area after all of that time. Eugene's shoe might have floated away in the stream (he was found in an area of the ravine that had a stream; Kurt wasn't) or the super crappy Newburgh Heights PD (at that time) just didn't see it.

I've mentioned this before, but I think Kurt was unconscious for 2 or 3 days before he died, so that would explain his lower BAC when the autopsy was done.

We know that he drank Everclear the day of the duplex party (either earlier in the day when he was skipping school, or at the party itself), so it's likely he either got sick from it or passed out and fell unconscious. We've mentioned before how we think he could have become unconscious instead of only being violently ill. He might have had an unusual undetected medical condition (that actually exists) where a person cannot extract alcohol (or large amounts) from their system once consuming it OR that someone might have lent him a Tylenol tablet or something of that nature shortly after he became violently ill from drinking and that taking a tablet like that while still under the influence can cause an adverse reaction and possible make someone pass out or fall unconscious.


As far as the question above regarding Eugene Kvet, he was found in a different area of that ravine: it is believed that he either accidentally fell off of a steep cliff in the area he was found or that he might have been pushed (possibly by members of a Newburgh Heights or greater Cleveland area gang at that time).

I don't think the two cases are related. Kurt's shoe was probably "missing" because the duplex people kept moving his body around to hide it from his parents on the occasions when they stopped by or it was lost when the two guys decided to move his body to the ravine area after all of that time. Eugene's shoe might have floated away in the stream (he was found in an area of the ravine that had a stream; Kurt wasn't) or the super crappy Newburgh Heights PD (at that time) just didn't see it.

All great points. However, I still dont get a cause of death. If you die directly from alcohol poisoning you dont die days later. If he partied on Friday and died Monday or Tuesday that cant be from alcohol poisoning related to Friday night. I myself have a huge sensitivity to alcohol ( it didn't stop me in my early 20s from partying a lot) and what your referring to is that certain people cant process alcohol at the normal rate so the toxin builds more quickly in these individuals. However, in either case it depresses the central nervous system as with any other overdose of a depressant that effects that central nervous system, after you slip into unconsciousness your breathing would become less and less followed by death.

The only way someone would remain in a coma state directly from alcohol poisoning would be if they suffered brain damage due to not breathing but rapid medical intervention came and they were resuscitated but suffered lack of oxygen to the brain for several minutes. This causes the brain to swell and would cause a coma state for days, months or forever. Such as in the case with Bobbi Kristina Houston (lack of oxygen but resuscitated). Again, this is only if medical intervention arrived which it didn't.

There was no vomit found in his lungs and unlike Jack Davis he had not suffered head trauma (a drunken fall or fight). Alcohol alone can not keep you unconscious but alive and breathing on your own for 3-4 days. Head trauma relating to a drunken fall or brawl could but he had no signs of any injury. Therefore he wasn't "knocked" out by a fall or a hit for several days (again solely going on the autopsy).

If he had an allergic reaction to even a bee sting that would be found in a properly performed autopsy.

I not convinced necessarily that the deaths are connected or even that anything sinister caused Kurt's death but going by the autopsy report it is impossible that an acute overdose caused his death. You can not die 3-4 days later from an acute overdose of alcohol or drugs. Yes, you can be resuscitated from lack of oxygen and be pronounced brain dead later in the hospital or die later from head trauma but not solely from an acute overdose.

Lastly, I double checked...

He died 24-36 hours before his body was found not 48 hrs. So the earliest he could have died was Monday evening. There is no way ANY alcohol would've been left in his system from Friday night. Alcohol is only detectable for about 30 hours in your tissues after you last consume it. So no matter if it was Everclear or how much he drank, since he didn't die or an acute overdose Friday, all alcohol would have been gone by Monday evening. So the minimal amount of alcohol that was found in his system had to be consumed Sunday morning or later in order for it to be present in his tissues. It would be impossible to still have any alcohol in his body from Friday if he died between Monday evening-Tuesday Morning which is the approximate time of death.

We know that he drank Everclear the day of the duplex party (either earlier in the day when he was skipping school, or at the party itself), so it's likely he either got sick from it or passed out and fell unconscious. We've mentioned before how we think he could have become unconscious instead of only being violently ill. He might have had an unusual undetected medical condition (that actually exists) where a person cannot extract alcohol (or large amounts) from their system once consuming it OR that someone might have lent him a Tylenol tablet or something of that nature shortly after he became violently ill from drinking and that taking a tablet like that while still under the influence can cause an adverse reaction and possible make someone pass out or fall unconscious.

Where did you hear he was drinking Everclear? My understanding is that's a pretty hardcore drink. Another problem I have with the drinking theory is that Kurt wasn't known to be much of a drinker, so I think he would have had to be in a particularly rebellious mood to try Everclear and enough of it so that it killed him (unless somebody laced it with something).

This may seem to some like a pretty whacked-out theory, but does anyone think Kurt may have been laying in the ravine from Friday night to Wednesday when he was found? I say that because the last confirmed sighting of him was when his friend left him on the fence to get his jacket. Then he turns up dead. I think it's possible he may have wandered out to the ravine on his own accord and simply never came back. That's not to say I necessarily believe he was always at the spot he was found dead at. Perhaps he got up a few times and tried to get back, staggered around and fell down again.

And if Susan is guilty, how dumb would she have to be to plant or have the body planted so close to her duplex where everyone knows a party happened that Kurt attended?

But another problem I have with the drinking theory is that it would require the collusion of a dozen or more people. While that isn't out of the realm of possibility, parties usually include people that the host isn't entirely familiar with. Friends of friends, mild acquaintances, etc. If this were some tight clique, I could maybe see them keeping their mouths shut forever, but it just seems unlikely that every single person at that party would remained tight-lipped to this day, 34 years later.

But the police apparently said he was from Detroit. Additionally, he knew facts about the case that a random person would not know.

Being from Detroit doesn't mean much. He could know people in that area and could have even attended the party himself.


Considering no cause of death was ever determined, it's impossible to know.

Well, we can eliminate what didn't happen. He wasn't shot or stabbed or beaten. This implies a natural death, a poison, or an overdose of some substance. Since he was a teenager, a natural death is extremely unlikely. So we are left with a poison (also unlikely) or an overdose of drugs or alcohol.


But Mr. Sova went to the apartment and found evidence that someone had been sleeping in a cot downstairs in the basement.

He found a bed in a young woman's apartment. Anyone could have been sleeping there. After all, she had a party just a few nights prior.


Underage drinking and the penalties associated with.

I would take my chances and call for help. Of course, since someone did die, perhaps she feared negligent homicide or manslaughter charges or something along those lines. I can understand her reluctance to talk, but it's hard to believe no one else at the party has had it weigh on their conscience enough to come forward after 30 years.

Being from Detroit doesn't mean much. He could know people in that area and could have even attended the party himself.

But you said he was local, when he was not.

Well, we can eliminate what didn't happen. He wasn't shot or stabbed or beaten. This implies a natural death, a poison, or an overdose of some substance. Since he was a teenager, a natural death is extremely unlikely. So we are left with a poison (also unlikely) or an overdose of drugs or alcohol.

See MissKryssy's post


He found a bed in a young woman's apartment. Anyone could have been sleeping there. After all, she had a party just a few nights prior.

You said Susan "made up" some story about someone sleeping in a cot downstairs. Mr. Sova went there and said that it appeared somebody was sleeping in the cot. Now whether it was Kurt or not is a matter of debate, but it appears someone was sleeping there.

Underage drinking is so prevalent between 17-20. In college, we went to parties all the time at 18 and vast amounts of alcohol was provided including 151 and a mixture called "Jungle juice" which I believe is Everclear and juice/fruits. There actually were a few times when someone (underage) had to have their stomach pumped and had acute alcohol poisoning. Nobody went to jail. They usually just said they didn't know the person was underage as people were coming and going. If I remember correctly they would get "providing alcohol to a minor" or whatever and have to appear in court aka pay a fine. That didn't always happen either.

Even when party drugs are involved which was also rampant around our college (and most), 911 had been called. However, no drugs were found so Kurt didn't die of drugs or even alcohol for that matter (see previous posts) but in regard to the proposed motive its bizarre.

Why risk getting charged with much more serious charges as opposed to simply calling 911 and saying he drank to much? Also, the statue of limitations has long run on any charges relating to providing a minor alcohol. Not one of those people at the party have come forward or told someone who would then tell someone else? All because Kurt was provided some booze at a party?

Its been over 30 years now and most of these party goers would be in their 50s.

"Where did you hear he was drinking Everclear?"


In the "Kurt Sova" thread, MegTheEgg linked a 1991 newspaper article from the Cleveland Plain-Dealer (I assume that it was written around the time of the 10 year anniversary of his death) that went into more detail about what transpired the day of that duplex party. One of the things stated was that on Friday, October 23rd 1981, Kurt skipped school and had someone of age get him a fifth of Everclear. It also stated that after that, he spent the day drinking over at a friend's (or girlfriend's?) place. The article did not specify whether or not he was drinking the Everclear at his friend's place during the day or if he saved it and/or took it with him to the duplex party that night.


As far as the "whacko from Detroit", this could have been someone that was at the party and DID talk about what happened. The officers might have asked him if he lived in Newburgh Heights (or some other part of Cleveland) without asking for his ID and he just lied to them. Everyone needs to remember: from all accounts, the officers that made up the dinky Newburgh Heights Police Department in this time period (early 1980's) were basically incompetent when it came to carrying out their duties properly.

Again, the problem is he did not die of alcohol poisoning or drugs or both as per the autopsy. Any alcohol, Everclear, or otherwise would be out of his system entirely by the estimated time of death between Monday evening and Tuesday Morning if the last time he drank was Friday night. (alcohol is only detected 30 hours after last consumption).

So the minimal amount he had in his system had to be consumed between Sunday morning and Monday. An acute overdose does not kill you 3-4 days later and then you only have a minimal amount of alcohol in your system at the moment of death. That's just not possible. You don't lay unconscious but alive and breathing on your own an acute overdose for 3-4 days. He had no head injury.

Based on the findings, he was alive and able to drink at least some alcohol between Sunday morning and Monday.

If the autopsy is correct (that's a big if), then its just impossible regardless of what he drank.

It is possible he wanted to party with these people all weekend long and something accidental or otherwise happened but again it is impossible if this autopsy is correct that he died of an overdose.

I think someone else had proposed a theory that Kurt had died of exposure in some manner. This is as best guess as I can come up with. Considering he was found with no shirt on and it was late October in the north, I think this theory fits all the known elements. His friend left him on the fence, Kurt wanders off into the ravine, nobody knows where he is, he can't get help on his own accord, and the cold temperatures eventually do him in.

always felt bad for the Sovas. seemed like decent people just looking for answers. And the coroner, with his Sherlock Holmes remark, what a jackass!
Have some pity for the parents burying a dead teenage son.

I think someone else had proposed a theory that Kurt had died of exposure in some manner. This is as best guess as I can come up with. Considering he was found with no shirt on and it was late October in the north, I think this theory fits all the known elements. His friend left him on the fence, Kurt wanders off into the ravine, nobody knows where he is, he can't get help on his own accord, and the cold temperatures eventually do him in.



When he was found, he still had on the yellow cut-off T he was wearing from the night of the party. I don't think "Susan" (Debbie Sams?: that was the name of one of the people that actually lived at that duplex back then) would have lied to Kurt's mom about having the party if he had actually wandered off. I could be wrong, but one would think that someone from the party would have actually gone and looked for him that night/early morning if he really did just wander off.

Maybe the autopsy findings were inaccurate. Maybe Kurt died in a timeframe that was actually greater than the 24-36 hours (that the coroner, Lester Adelson, stated) that he was estimated dead before he was found in the ravine area.

When he was found, he still had on the yellow cut-off T he was wearing from the night of the party. I don't think "Susan" (Debbie Sams?: that was the name of one of the people that actually lived at that duplex back then) would have lied to Kurt's mom about having the party if he had actually wandered off. I could be wrong, but one would think that someone from the party would have actually gone and looked for him that night/early morning if he really did just wander off.

Maybe the autopsy findings were inaccurate. Maybe Kurt died in a timeframe that was actually greater than the 24-36 hours (that the coroner, Lester Adelson, stated) that he was estimated dead before he was found in the ravine area.

Ah, ok. I think I was getting him confused with another Kurt....Kurt McFall. At the beginning of the segment, they show Kurt's body from a distance and it looks like (to me, anyways) he was shirtless, but then Kurt's father made the comment about the yellow shirt, which I had forgot.

I don't know about the partiers going out and looking for him though. As has been stated, parties usually involve many people coming and going and perhaps everyone just thought he had left on his own accord or just simply didn't notice he was gone. If it was a small group of close friends, I could see them looking for him, but this was a whole nother can of worms.

I agree. UM had a tendency to do this kind of thing. I also think this could have been the case with Keith Warren. He drinks too much or has some sort of adverse reaction to drugs and dies. Then, his friends or people he was with make it look like a suicide.
1. Detective used information from Undocumented, unknown, unrelated source to make determination of suicide. Then used the information to justify sending the body directly to funeral home.... Not sure how UM could have exaggerated that info..

2. clothing was changed ( this is verified by pictures) not sure how UM could have exaggerated that

3. Police confirm they cut the tree down ( not sure how UM could have exaggerated that)

4. No autopsy ( not sure how UM could have exaggerated that)

This list could go on for a minute.....

People like Chuck Morgan, and even Lee Young definetly belong under cover ups. I'm suprised nobody connected them together. Both men were involved with cracking down on corruption within various industries such as banking and real estate. People can say their fates were self inflicted, but when you look at the events leading up to them it's obvious something fishy was going on.

I'm not a big government conspiracy guy, but man, that Johnny Gosch case stinks to high heavens. Making it even worse is that interview with "Jeff Gannon" who was accused of being Gosch and he did nothing in that interview to convince us he was not Gosch. In fact, he made you MORE suspicious. Maybe Gannon isn't Gosch, but he isn't who he says he is either and he got an extremely prestigious job (reporter in the White House) for no reason whatsoever. Something is very weird there, whether it has to do with Gosch is another story.

We'll never know this because he is dead either way, but do people think George Owens was just simply depressed and walked into the woods to perish? He was 87 and this is about 30 years ago.

Having worked in the government in one form or another for many years I find it virtually impossible for there to be undiscovered government cover ups and conspiracies. If more than one person is involved, someone will talk (with Bill and Monica, Monica talked), typically a person who feels the least guilty or to cut a deal or to just blab. The threat of "being killed if you talk" found in many conspiracy theories from my experience would not stop anyone from talking and a lot sooner than 30-50 years later.
Aside from that facet of human nature, the government is notoriously incompetent at most things, increasing the likelihood of discovery. if space aliens and a space ship were taken from New Mexico to Ohio, it is much more likely that the tarp would fall off the ship on the back of a truck while it was driving through downtown Fort Worth than it is there was a secret cover up that no one directly involved ever has talked about.

I get a kick out of how a panicky alert in LA in early 1942 (the basis for the plot of Steven Spielberg's 1979 movie 1941 which starred Robert Stack BTW as General Stillwell) started out as a fear of false Japanese attack but has now evolved into a real UFO attack on California among fringists (I think UM did a segment on the "attack.")

I was literally just telling two coworkers about Bobbi today because of those escapees!

Yep, both these cases had shades of Mrs. Soffel!

What about the other boy in Kurt Sova's area who died mysteriously and both were missing a right shoe which never turned up?

Unless the "loser friends" had heard of Eugene's case and took Kurt's shoe to make them look connected!

While my gut tells me that there was no foul play and that Kurt died of an overdose or reaction to some kind of drug and those with him panicked and disposed of his body, I've never been able to reconcile one thing along those lines...the Crazy from Detroit.

The guy said that Kurt's body would be found and that no one would know how he died.

Granted, logic would dictate the guy was just some crackpot. However, it bothers me that his comment was shown to be accurate according to the autopsy findings, or lack thereof.

Yeah, that, too. That was reported before the body even turned up, right?

Another thing which would be very interesting and probably major news if it ever actually happened is when a person (in many cases famous, but in some kidnapping cases just some kid) is kidnapped or killed. Years later someone shows up claiming to be them. (Reincarnations don't count.)

Only case I can think of is Stephen Stayner, and he never showed up claiming to be himself! He was simply going to drop Timmy White at the police station and leave--it was the police who stopped him and asked him who he was. Ditto Shawn Hornbeck. The police found him and Ben Ownsby while investigating some other matter. Some other kidnapped children have found their true identities through lengthy research, or escaped after many years such as Jaycee Dugard and Natalia Kampusch. And of course Ariel Castro's victims were held for ten years.

Famous claimant cases included the Romanovs (the entire family, many times over--over 200 of the children alone, as well as a few of Alexandra and even Nicholas, but only "Anna Anderson" became very famous), the lost Dauphin of France (at least one claimant), the Lindbergh baby, (14 claimants, one of whom verified his true identity through DNA), John Wilkes Booth and Billy the Kid (at least one claimant each). Butch Cassidy may have actually lived for years, but he never came forward, it was his family who said they saw him.

Some cases of someone claiming to be the illegitimate child of someone famous were proven through DNA. This happened with Charles Lindbergh and Warren G. Harding.

The Bobby Dunbar/ Bruce Anderson case is one of a kid literally snatched and used to replace another, while criminalizing his relatives.

Harkening back to one of the other "Kurts" on UM, it feels like they really leaned in hard on the malevolency associated with the "satanic panic" in the Kurt McFall case.

Specifically, they highlight the interview of one of this friends in silhouette, who makes a few rather dubious claims about the "organization", referring to it as an addiction, with Kurt stumbling onto information he shouldn't have and something to the point that these people "don't make threats, make actions". If I'm correct, they fail to distinguish between whatever pagan studies Kurt was engaging with/in, and satanism.

Then they show his older friend and refer to him under his ancient, pagan name, "Karatic"(or something phonetically similar), and it seems a tad condescending.

Having worked in the government in one form or another for many years I find it virtually impossible for there to be undiscovered government cover ups and conspiracies. If more than one person is involved, someone will talk (with Bill and Monica, Monica talked), typically a person who feels the least guilty or to cut a deal or to just blab. The threat of "being killed if you talk" found in many conspiracy theories from my experience would not stop anyone from talking and a lot sooner than 30-50 years later.
Aside from that facet of human nature, the government is notoriously incompetent at most things, increasing the likelihood of discovery. if space aliens and a space ship were taken from New Mexico to Ohio, it is much more likely that the tarp would fall off the ship on the back of a truck while it was driving through downtown Fort Worth than it is there was a secret cover up that no one directly involved ever has talked about.


I'm totally with you in that I discount most government conspiracies because whenever the government tries to orchestrate/cover-up anything, it displays all the skill and finesse of an exploding cigar at a funeral.

I point to the alleged Moon Landing Hoax. Given the amount of people needed to perpetuate it, not just the astronauts, but you'd also need people to build sets and props among a million other stuff...It would probably be easier to just go to the moon than cross your fingers and hope that everyone involved keeps their mouths shut.

Because you expect me to believe, regarding the conspiracy, that none of the prop-builders or whatever, they didn't face any kind of money trouble or anything that would make them think, "Y'know I could sell my story to Tabloid X for a whole pile of cash, especially if I can present actual proof as to my fantastic claims." Yeah, I know, the conspiracy believers would just say, "NASA would just bump them off," but there are so many holes in that theory as well.

But like I said, while I know my government isn't made up of angels, my mistrust stems more from what they've actually done (the CIA's long ugly history of orchestrating coups against governments we don't like) rather than frothing nonsense about, chemtrails or fluoridated water or whatever it is the anti-government nuts are up in arms about now.