This has been nagging at me lately and I want to get some input. For a time I was a true believer that there were conspiracies to kill both John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy. Then I read Gerald Posner's excellent book Case Closed and decided that there wasn't a conspiracy in the JFK case after all. Shortly thereafter I read Dan Moldea's The Killing of Robert F. Kennedy and decided there wasn't a conspiracy in that case either. And please don't try to convince me otherwise, because 1) that's not the purpose of this thread and 2) I have firmly decided to focus on reading about how both men lived, rather than how they died.

However, one case where I can't seem to get past the conspiracy thing is Son of Sam. If you've seen the UM segment or read the book that inspired it, Maury Terry's The Ultimate Evil, it just doesn't make sense that David Berkowitz did all the killings himself. For one, only two of the five composite sketches even resemble him. Second, two of the people Terry believes were in on it with Berkowitz, brothers John and Michael Carr, died in suspicious deaths.

What does everyone else think?

I am uncertain of this case as well. I tend to believe he acted alone. But, that being said, it is odd that while only two of the composite sketches resemble David, that at least one of the sketches resembles, very strongly, John Carr.

As we know witness descriptions and memories are not always reliable. But having a sketch not only not look like the killer, but also closely resemble a close associate of his, that seems more than coincidence.

Profiler John Douglas has interviewed David and he seems confident that he acted alone, so in the end I tend to feel the same way. Then again, IMO Douglas has been wrong in the past. He feels that Lee Oswald acted alone (not to bring up the other part of your topic) but I couldn't disagree with that more. So while I agree with Douglas that David likely acted alone, I still feel that as a profiler, he is not infallible.

And just because I did touch on it slightly, I won't try to sway your opinion as you are entitled to it. Gerald Posner gets way too much credibility given to him for his book. His conclusions are selective and he ignores anything at all that could contradict his findings. I will not say anything more on the JFK part of this per your request other than as I said, you are entitled to your opinion, but at least don't make Posner's book the final word you read on the subject.

I think Oswald acted alone, but I definitely don't think Berkowitz did. I don't buy into a lot of the speculation in Terry's book, but I do think the Carr brothers (and at least one other person) were also responsible for the shootings. That 'John Wheaties' reference in the Breslin letter almost certainly could not refer to anyone other than John Carr. It was a nickname he'd had for years, and John and Mike's sister's actual first name was Wheat.

I think Oswald acted alone, but I definitely don't think Berkowitz did. I don't buy into a lot of the speculation in Terry's book, but I do think the Carr brothers (and at least one other person) were also responsible for the shootings. That 'John Wheaties' reference in the Breslin letter almost certainly could not refer to anyone other than John Carr. It was a nickname he'd had for years, and John and Mike's sister's actual first name was Wheat.I agree. One of the shootings is fairly obvious in it being another perpetrator, and those sketches are pretty off from Berkowitz.

I'm not really a conspiracy guy, but I do think this involved more than one shooter.

This looks nothing like Berkowitz. More like that John Carr or whatever his name was.

http://www.murderpedia.org/male.B/images/berkowitz/wanted_poster1.jpg

More than one killer. Way to many things don't add up on the surface.

As for Robert Kennedy, you don't need much convincing that there is a conspiracy. Way to many things don't add up.

I'm not one to always assume conspiracy theory but after multiple viewings of the UM segment, some of the things do point to Son of Sam being more like Sons of Sam.

I just watched the infamous Son of Sam episodes again. There is an aspect of it that I would like to discuss that I actually don't think has been touched on before. I did a forum search for "Berkowitz" and this is the most recent thread that came up.

Anyway...

what did you guys think of the anonymous witness who said that he and his cousin witnessed a meeting of the Satanic cult in (I assume) Untermeyer Park as late as 1986-1987? Of course, the segment would have us believe that this is the same cult that was responsible for the Son of Sam murders.

The more I mull the whole thing over, the more I find it difficult to believe. If such a cult existed, and engaged in the ritualistic sacrifice of animals, blood drinking, urine drinking, etc. (all alleged in the segment) why would they do this in a public park? And we're to believe this was an organized group of 22 people (the "22 Disciples of Hell" from the Jimmy Breslin letter)?

The actions being alleged here certainly seem uhhh..."high risk" to me, to say the least.

Thoughts?

I just watched the infamous Son of Sam episodes again. There is an aspect of it that I would like to discuss that I actually don't think has been touched on before. I did a forum search for "Berkowitz" and this is the most recent thread that came up.

Anyway...

what did you guys think of the anonymous witness who said that he and his cousin witnessed a meeting of the Satanic cult in (I assume) Untermeyer Park as late as 1986-1987? Of course, the segment would have us believe that this is the same cult that was responsible for the Son of Sam murders.

The more I mull the whole thing over, the more I find it difficult to believe. If such a cult existed, and engaged in the ritualistic sacrifice of animals, blood drinking, urine drinking, etc. (all alleged in the segment) why would they do this in a public park? And we're to believe this was an organized group of 22 people (the "22 Disciples of Hell" from the Jimmy Breslin letter)?

The actions being alleged here certainly seem uhhh..."high risk" to me, to say the least.

Thoughts?

I take that segment with a grain of salt to be honest. No satanic occult is going to perform rituals in public, unless it's a small town and everyone is in the occult. Cults of this nature tend to perform rituals and the other more private affairs away from large cities. If Berkowitz was in fact in an occult, I find it difficult to believe that this is the same one. With investigators already looking at the Carr brothers and Berkowitz's own claims. The occult would have been completely driven underground and probably would have stayed there long after Berkowitz was dead or it broke up altogether.

Yeah, I don't buy the cult in the public park story either. The segment showed German Shepherds and anybody whose been around one will tell you that they're noisy dogs. I imagine when they're in pain, they make even more noise which makes me wonder just how this cult can convene in a public park, sacrifice a large animal, and no one hear a thing.

Also, I think Berkowitz acted alone. If there was more than one Son of Sam, what's the explanation for why the killings stopped when he was arrested? Or is this all part of the conspiracy? Woo...

I think if there was any devil-worshipping at all involved, it would have been in private, like when that witness said he walked in on an animal sacrifice in his own kitchen. I doubt any murdering cult would practice in a public park, regardless of it being in a wooded spot.

If there was more than one Son of Sam, what's the explanation for why the killings stopped when he was arrested? Or is this all part of the conspiracy? Woo...
If the Carr brothers were indeed responsible, their deaths would account for why the murders stopped. I think they were probably involved and doubt that Berkowitz acted alone.

I just watched the infamous Son of Sam episodes again. There is an aspect of it that I would like to discuss that I actually don't think has been touched on before. I did a forum search for "Berkowitz" and this is the most recent thread that came up.

Anyway...

what did you guys think of the anonymous witness who said that he and his cousin witnessed a meeting of the Satanic cult in (I assume) Untermeyer Park as late as 1986-1987? Of course, the segment would have us believe that this is the same cult that was responsible for the Son of Sam murders.

The more I mull the whole thing over, the more I find it difficult to believe. If such a cult existed, and engaged in the ritualistic sacrifice of animals, blood drinking, urine drinking, etc. (all alleged in the segment) why would they do this in a public park? And we're to believe this was an organized group of 22 people (the "22 Disciples of Hell" from the Jimmy Breslin letter)?

The actions being alleged here certainly seem uhhh..."high risk" to me, to say the least.

Thoughts?

Wasn't Untermeyer Park a little unkempt at the time? Maybe someone from the area can shed some light, but I was always under the impression the park wasn't extensively maintained at the time--thereby rendering itself an attractive spot for people who maybe want to do secretive things while deterring the average schmoe who wants to visit a park.

In any event, I actually don't get the impression the kid is lying, per se. I think there could exist some exaggerations or embellishments here and there, but I generally believe his story. I do not, however, think it is at all likely that group is related to the Son of Sam shootings.

Not sure if it's a conspiracy, but what does Berkowitz say?

Does he actually acknowledge a third party?

Not sure if it's a conspiracy, but what does Berkowitz say?

Does he actually acknowledge a third party?


As I understand, Berkowitz initially claimed sole responsibility - but in the mid 90s started claiming there were co-conspirators.

His claims on this topic are worthless though - he's clearly crazy.

As I understand, Berkowitz initially claimed sole responsibility - but in the mid 90s started claiming there were co-conspirators.

His claims on this topic are worthless though - he's clearly crazy.

Berkowitz is clearly trying to pass the buck for his transgressions in this crime. The fact he tried to say a talking dog drove him to kill is a sign that he's trying to wash his hands of his part in the crime. The fact he keeps coming up with scenario after scenario of his "small" part in the crime spree is a dead give away. With that being said if "he's clearly crazy" as you put it, why in the 30+ years of his incarceration he has never been moved to a state mental ward, diagnosed with some form of dementia, or some kind of psychological disorder?

Was he part of it? Yes. The evidence in his apartment and the fact he had possession of the firearm in question, means he is culpible for at least being a part of the crime.

As I understand, Berkowitz initially claimed sole responsibility - but in the mid 90s started claiming there were co-conspirators.

His claims on this topic are worthless though - he's clearly crazy.

No. Berkowitz began claiming the co-conspiracy in the early 80s, after Michael Carr's 1979 death.

. With that being said if "he's clearly crazy" as you put it, why in the 30+ years of his incarceration he has never been moved to a state mental ward, diagnosed with some form of dementia, or some kind of psychological disorder?



Here's a guy who went around for a year shooting random strangers and thereafter wrote rambling incoherent letters to the paper regarding the above. He may not be legally "insane" ( which is a legal - not medical - term) but he is clearly a few sandwiches short of a picnic

No. Berkowitz began claiming the co-conspiracy in the early 80s, after Michael Carr's 1979 death.


That'll teach me to trust wikipedia :)

I 'm pretty sure Berkowitz acted alone - but of all the conspiracy theories presented by UM over the years, this strikes me as the most plausible

Here's a guy who went around for a year shooting random strangers and thereafter wrote rambling incoherent letters to the paper regarding the above. He may not be legally "insane" ( which is a legal - not medical - term) but he is clearly a few sandwiches short of a picnic

Which is why I used the term diagnosed and not "observed" by an expert. 2 different things. A diagnoses can take several days to several years. 30+ years in a state prison or institution is plenty of time to accurately diagnose a person. You mean to tell me after all of this time in prison, all the statements through the years, all the retractions, subsequent reinstatement of said statements, no one has ever taken the trouble to properly diagnose Mr. Berkowitz with a form psychological disorder, pathological disorder, personality disorder, etc. and so forth in 30+ years?

I find that really hard to believe. Even if you take all of the inconsistencies of eyewitness statements and official police reports. Here's what I'll do isotope, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's pretend Berkowitz is "a few sandwiches short of a picnic" as you say.

If he is that insane to make his credibility questionable on these statements of conspiracy and other gunman, what makes his own confession of being The Son of Sam killer that much more credible? You're questioning the credibility of his statements because he engaged in behavior that makes him look crazy. It makes zero sense to not throw into question his very own confession. While he was, according to you, "went around for a year shooting random strangers and thereafter wrote rambling incoherent letters to the paper regarding the above"

That'll teach me to trust wikipedia :)

I 'm pretty sure Berkowitz acted alone - but of all the conspiracy theories presented by UM over the years, this strikes me as the most plausible

The fact that the main detective who worked the case and main investigation, doesn't even believe Berkowitz did it alone is the driving force for me to look deeper into this case.

Weren't most of the multiple gunmen theories etc from Maury Terry? His book is very good in an entertaining way but like many he is prone to make connections that just don't exist.

In the book he was saying that Roy Radin was murdered by the Son Of Sam Cult, a few years later it emerged he was murdered over a falling out he had with a dodgy character he had gotten involved with about the Cotton Club film.

This is a question I have had for many years. Berkowitz never struck me has being intelligent enough to carry these out,he did not match all the sketches and even the detectives had there doubts he acted alone.
I really doubt he could have acted alone. I think it was him and the Carr bros. And when he started writing the letters they washed their hands of it knowing he was going to get arrested. And probably threatened him or his family for his silence in there part in the murders. Once they died he began to talk- dead men can't retaliate against him.
As to why they killings stopped after Berkowitz was arrested. The bros were probably waiting till the heat was down(son to speak) and they were going to start killing. But they themselves were killed several years later before they got the chance to kill again.
It is not unsual for serial killers to stop for periods of time. I have not read the books you cited but I am going to get them and read!

Weren't most of the multiple gunmen theories etc from Maury Terry? His book is very good in an entertaining way but like many he is prone to make connections that just don't exist.

The multiple gunmen theories originated with a faction of NYPD officers and then-Queens D.A. John Santucci. Maury Terry simply relayed them in his book.

I do agree that there exist some pretty tenuous connections in that book in my estimation. However, the multiple gunmen theories were being tossed around long before Terry ever got to writing The Ultimate Evil, and the arena wasn't within the media or journalists, but among LEOs themselves.

In fact, the lone gunman theory was largely what the media was reporting and promoting heavily at the time of the investigation as well as during Berkowitz's arrest and trial. The crimes gripped and changed NYC profoundly. Understandably, the public greatly enjoyed the reassurance that the Berkowitz-as-insane-singular-shooter theory provides, and I think this is why the multiple gunmen theories were so very unpopular, especially during the period immediately after Berkowitz's capture.

This is a question I have had for many years. Berkowitz never struck me has being intelligent enough to carry these out,he did not match all the sketches and even the detectives had there doubts he acted alone.
I really doubt he could have acted alone. I think it was him and the Carr bros. And when he started writing the letters they washed their hands of it knowing he was going to get arrested. And probably threatened him or his family for his silence in there part in the murders. Once they died he began to talk- dead men can't retaliate against him.
As to why they killings stopped after Berkowitz was arrested. The bros were probably waiting till the heat was down(son to speak) and they were going to start killing. But they themselves were killed several years later before they got the chance to kill again.
It is not unsual for serial killers to stop for periods of time. I have not read the books you cited but I am going to get them and read!

How intelligent do you have to be to fire a gun at people at close range & then get out of dodge before the cops arrive, most criminals get caught because of stupidity rather than any brilliance by the police.

Eyewitness reports are hugely unreliable-you can have 20 people looking at the same thing & get 20 different descriptions. They could have seen somebody innocent somewhere near to the scene & give that description. They may not have got a good look-but feel a pressure to give a description so create an image in their mind.

It is possible others were involved but the usual reasons most murders stop is because the perpetrator has been caught. Otis & Toole invented a ludicrous cabal of murderers, like Berkowitz they were also pathological fantasists & liars.

The multiple gunmen theories originated with a faction of NYPD officers and then-Queens D.A. John Santucci. Maury Terry simply relayed them in his book.

I do agree that there exist some pretty tenuous connections in that book in my estimation. However, the multiple gunmen theories were being tossed around long before Terry ever got to writing The Ultimate Evil, and the arena wasn't within the media or journalists, but among LEOs themselves.

In fact, the lone gunman theory was largely what the media was reporting and promoting heavily at the time of the investigation as well as during Berkowitz's arrest and trial. The crimes gripped and changed NYC profoundly. Understandably, the public greatly enjoyed the reassurance that the Berkowitz-as-insane-singular-shooter theory provides, and I think this is why the multiple gunmen theories were so very unpopular, especially during the period immediately after Berkowitz's capture.

And that the murders stopped-like they did in Atlanta when Wayne Williams was taken off the streets.

How intelligent do you have to be to fire a gun at people at close range & then get out of dodge before the cops arrive, most criminals get caught because of stupidity rather than any brilliance by the police.

Eyewitness reports are hugely unreliable-you can have 20 people looking at the same thing & get 20 different descriptions. They could have seen somebody innocent somewhere near to the scene & give that description. They may not have got a good look-but feel a pressure to give a description so create an image in their mind.

It is possible others were involved but the usual reasons most murders stop is because the perpetrator has been caught. Otis & Toole invented a ludicrous cabal of murderers, like Berkowitz they were also pathological fantasists & liars.

My problem with what you just said is that you're questioning Berkowitz credibility. Aside from being in possession of the gun in the murders, any decent lawyer could have gotten Berkowitz off if he pleaded not guilty. To my knowledge there is really no physical evidence that he shot anybody. Your admission that ID's are unreliable is all the reasonable doubt a lawyer would need to get an acquittal. So basically we have to rely on his confession to police after getting caught. The confession of a fantasist and liar according to you. Your theory makes his confession even less realistic than the multiple shooters theory. At least that's how I'm reading the big picture according to what you just said.

My problem with what you just said is that you're questioning Berkowitz credibility. Aside from being in possession of the gun in the murders, any decent lawyer could have gotten Berkowitz off if he pleaded not guilty.


He was :
a) in possession of the murder weapon
b) proven to be in the vicinity of the last murder at the time it took place
c) Caught with incriminating material (maps of the crime scences, a threatening letter to the head of the investigation) in his car.
d) Driving a car similar to that which had been spotted at a number of the murders

You'd better have a damn good story to get past that compelling circumstantial evidence.

Berkowitz may have been off his rocker (he'd scrawled satanic graiffitti all over his apartment) but his confession tallied with the forensic evidence.

I don't dismiss the multiple gunman theory entirely - but it will take more than Berkowitz's wild fantasies to convince me of it

He was :
a) in possession of the murder weapon
b) proven to be in the vicinity of the last murder at the time it took place
c) Caught with incriminating material (maps of the crime scences, a threatening letter to the head of the investigation) in his car.
d) Driving a car similar to that which had been spotted at a number of the murders

You'd better have a damn good story to get past that compelling circumstantial evidence.

Berkowitz may have been off his rocker (he'd scrawled satanic graiffitti all over his apartment) but his confession tallied with the forensic evidence.

I don't dismiss the multiple gunman theory entirely - but it will take more than Berkowitz's wild fantasies to convince me of it

Which means he was in possession of a firearm. It does not mean beyond a reasonable doubt he was at the crime scene and fired the gun. The maps and crime scene photos he could have gotten anywhere.

The letter again does not prove in a court of law he fired the gun or was at any of the crime scenes.

I understand eyewitness testimony and statements are unreliable. But when there are so many eyewitnesses who say no it was not Dave Berkowitz, the lone gunman theory has to be tossed out. I'm sorry but to have that many people within the investigation that had access to evidence that the press did not and who the majority agree that Berkowitz was not involved in the "shootings" has to be taken into account.

My problem with what you just said is that you're questioning Berkowitz credibility. Aside from being in possession of the gun in the murders, any decent lawyer could have gotten Berkowitz off if he pleaded not guilty. To my knowledge there is really no physical evidence that he shot anybody. Your admission that ID's are unreliable is all the reasonable doubt a lawyer would need to get an acquittal. So basically we have to rely on his confession to police after getting caught. The confession of a fantasist and liar according to you. Your theory makes his confession even less realistic than the multiple shooters theory. At least that's how I'm reading the big picture according to what you just said.

He has no credibility-very few criminals do because they lie about everything. Sure-without direct physical evidence most people walk, because a jury is very loathe to put somebody away for a serious crime based on circumstantial evidence alone. In this case you had a lot of circumstantial evidence along with physical evidence, his weird appearance & behaviour in the court also did him no favours.

This case doesn't get a lot of attention, but I've always been intrigued by this unsolved murder in 1981. A Manhattan couple is murdered in their apartment on Halloween and have their place ransacked. A prison informant comes forward, claiming that weeks beforehand, Berkowitz had told him that a couple would be killed by his cult in a ritual murder on Halloween and their home would be ransacked. Berkowitz then states that the victim, Ronald Sisman, had snuff footage of one of the Son of Sam murders and was planning to blow the case wide open by handing it over to the authorities to beat some drug charges.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gijG7fSwvjAC&pg=PA346&lpg=PA346&dq=david+berkowitz+encyclopedia+of+unsolved+crimes&source=bl&ots=KP-zD_bLuA&sig=YQVDVo1LiRkH-RDkBxIxyLNKf8U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5QUgVJCsBc2myAT1h4CwCw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=david%20berkowitz%20encyclopedia%20of%20unsolved%20crimes&f=false

It sounds pretty absurd, but apparently, Berkowitz did provide some accurate details about the crime and Sisman's apartment.

This case doesn't get a lot of attention, but I've always been intrigued by this unsolved murder in 1981. A Manhattan couple is murdered in their apartment on Halloween and have their place ransacked. A prison informant comes forward, claiming that weeks beforehand, Berkowitz had told him that a couple would be killed by his cult in a ritual murder on Halloween and their home would be ransacked. Berkowitz then states that the victim, Ronald Sisman, had snuff footage of one of the Son of Sam murders and was planning to blow the case wide open by handing it over to the authorities to beat some drug charges.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gijG7fSwvjAC&pg=PA346&lpg=PA346&dq=david+berkowitz+encyclopedia+of+unsolved+crimes&source=bl&ots=KP-zD_bLuA&sig=YQVDVo1LiRkH-RDkBxIxyLNKf8U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5QUgVJCsBc2myAT1h4CwCw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=david%20berkowitz%20encyclopedia%20of%20unsolved%20crimes&f=false

It sounds pretty absurd, but apparently, Berkowitz did provide some accurate details about the crime and Sisman's apartment.

I've heard of this before. Fairly good chance the film still exists, if there is in fact a snuff film floating around somewhere. From my own research snuff film footage is very hard to obtain. There are rumored Charles Manson tapes and footage floating around underground.

I read Terry's book years ago when it came out and even visited the crime scenes (actually only the last one) in NYC the last time I was wandering through that city. I found an e-book version of the Ultimate Evil recently and dumped it in the Kindle version on my iPad to reread this summer.

i almost never believe in conspiracy theories since they defy humsan nature (someone will talk and not 50 years later!-- in this case it was Berjkowitz as the actual sons of Sam were dead by then...). While Terry may havetaken things to extremes, it seems he was on to something here. Recommend reading the book ifyouhaven't already.

Serendipitous Irony: Several of my co-workers went to a two-week course at Stanford a few years back and they brought back various postcards of Stanford. The one I got was the chapel where Arlis Perry was murdered, the only place I knew at Stanford as it is the chilling opening to Terry's book.

Odd Facts:

1. While some of the murders were random, at least one and probably two were targetted. The Austrian lady who was killed in Queens seems to have been one as her date recorded odd events before they went to their movie (like a car pulling into the lot next to them looking at them then driving away)...

2. It seems the very next murder which was the only daylight one where a lady walking home from the subway only blocks away from the previous one was done to make the other crime seem random.

3. While Berkowitz is very unique looking, in many of the cases the suspect looks completely different (several different guys). But Berkowitz was seen lurking around as a guard nearby in the cases where he seemingly was not the shooter.

4. The last murder was the most complicated one and several witnesses (a van, a VW) disappeared after the murder. The presence of the van is why some believe there was a snuff film made as it was parked with a perfect view of the murder scene and had been there a while. The victims were parked under a street light next to a playground. Berkowitz got his ticket several blocks away which apparently made him the fall guy. He seemingly was too far away to have been the shooter.

5. The Manson II guy mentioned by Terry, who has been in prison since the 1980s (for a murder detailed in the book), was several years ago considered a prime Zodiac suspect in a SF newspaper article that made a stir for a time. The DNA did not match.

6. I was at ROTC summer camp at Fort Bragg, NC, in the summer of 1977 when Berkowitz was caught. We had a sizeable NYC contingent and they were all very fearful before the capture.

David Bertkowitz has been in prison for 35+ years. He is serving 6 life sentences for his crimes. I'll bet a lot of people don't know this, but he has become a devout Christian during that time. His interviews are pretty fascinating actually. When I say he has become a Christian, I think it is pretty genuine coming from him. He isn't getting out, he isn't a guy with a 10 year sentence that can use religion to show he is a changed man and get out in 6. He has nothing to gain from saying this.

I just find it unusual that he made this sort of transformation. He is almost like a prison preacher in jail now. He understands he has to be punished for his crimes though, he says he prays for the families he hurt every day. Anyway, that might not mean a lot to people, and it doesn't change the fact he murdered people, but you don't often hear that from a serial killer.

Doesn't he still get parole hearings? Probably just a gimmick to get out-knowing how religion is pandered to/given special treatment.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/05/10/son-of-sam-berkowitz-wants-out-of-prison-and-to-join-the-ministry/

Anyone watching "Sons of Sam" on Netflix right now?

Interesting that a 2021 documentary is kind of...taking the satanic panic angle seriously(?)

Love the footage of young New Yorkers in the late 1970s :lol:

Anyone watching "Sons of Sam" on Netflix right now?

Interesting that a 2021 documentary is kind of...taking the satanic panic angle seriously(?)

Love the footage of young New Yorkers in the late 1970s :lol:

Why wouldn’t they take it seriously?

I watched it last night and it makes a compelling case that a Satanic cult is responsible for the murders. The ending really clinched it for me.

Some of you are too eager to dismiss the “outlandish” elements of a case because it doesn’t fit your world view.

I’ve dealt with this time and time again as a Cindy James aficionado who believes she was murdered by an unknown culprit.

Anyone watching "Sons of Sam" on Netflix right now?

Interesting that a 2021 documentary is kind of...taking the satanic panic angle seriously(?)

Love the footage of young New Yorkers in the late 1970s :lol:

Maury Terry was a halfwit who bought into DB's bs & fed his ego by giving him so much attention & this guy who apparently was given all his files when Terry died seems to buy into it. Can remember reading the book & he was tying in the Roy Radin murder into some Satanic Cult associated with DB-the reality was it was a financial issue regarding the Cotton Club film between him & some female drug lord.

Finished the Netflix documentary last night.

Whether you believe the satanic angle or not, this was a very well-produced and thorough piece. I thought the very end of the doc was extremely well put-together and, like a good horror movie, it finished on an ambiguous note.

I think the doc makes a very good case for BOTH of the following:

1. Berkowitz was involved in some sort of cult-like activity and it's not unreasonable that there was more than one "Son of Sam" shooter

2. Maury Terry became obsessed with this case and his mental health might have deteriorated a bit to the point where he was trying to prove more and more outlandish scenarios

I think basing anything off what Berkowitz claims is a problem. His story was so varied and changeable within the first fifteen or so years after his incarceration, you don't know what to believe. "A demon dog told me to do it." And then it's, "I killed them all myself." Then later it's "a satanic cult helped me do it." So no matter what version is the truth, he wasn't doing himself any favors when it comes to believability.

I remember at one point in the book, even Berkowitz makes this statement to Terry in a letter he has written him, that if he is quoted or attributed to something, there is zero credibility to it in the eyes of the authorities and the public.

Thank goodness for the ignore list.

It’s not based off his statements. Maury Terry did a thorough investigation into the Satanic cult. It’s all there in the docuseries that you didn’t watch.

Terry started out with a theory about Satanic Cults & then fitted the events to that narrative-because you know, a mental inferior like DB couldn't have just got a gun & done it all himself, just like those Egyptians couldn't have built those pyramids without the help of ancient aliens. Satanic Cult hysteria was all the rage in the 1980's. He saw what he wanted to-Nazi & possibly Devil related Graffiti suddenly isn't right wing fascists & idiot kids trying to be edgy while drunk on a Friday night, but a Satanic cult doing sacrifices.

He believes people who take him to see Satanic graffiti in a park actually saw a cult meeting & didn't just paint it themselves to get on television.
People come while UM are filming & claim they saw 15 people doing Satanic stuff & he just believes it & doesn't even countenance the possibility that they just want to be on television. Roy Radin is murdered so it has to be cult related-well that was proved incorrect. Kids go missing so they must be Satanic sacrifices, nothing to do with paedophiles etc.

Finished the Netflix documentary last night.

Whether you believe the satanic angle or not, this was a very well-produced and thorough piece. I thought the very end of the doc was extremely well put-together and, like a good horror movie, it finished on an ambiguous note.

I think the doc makes a very good case for BOTH of the following:

1. Berkowitz was involved in some sort of cult-like activity and it's not unreasonable that there was more than one "Son of Sam" shooter

2. Maury Terry became obsessed with this case and his mental health might have deteriorated a bit to the point where he was trying to prove more and more outlandish scenarios

I lean towards a cult being involved, but I can see your second point. His second interview with Berkowitz felt off, like a crusade.

That being said, the ending told me that he was definitely on to something.

Thank goodness for the ignore list.

Sweet lord, this guy seems to just block everybody who disagrees with him-how ridiculous.

Sweet lord, this guy seems to just block everybody who disagrees with him-how ridiculous.

Ignore list is going to be so full, that the only person they can reply to is themselves

Recently finished watching The Sons of Sam: A Descent into Darkness Netflix 4-part documentary. Very well-done, thoroughly researched, and extremely gripping/compelling/intriguing. Also liked the Season of the Witch (Donovan, 1966) "theme" song for the series - very appropriate. I still think DB almost certainly acted alone re: the SOS killings. But, this does present an "alternate take" on this, even though I don't believe that it happened this way.

Some thoughts:

-This panic about cults, etc. that came up in the '70's/'80's was ridiculous & IMHO had little to no veracity. Specifically, the idea that the roleplaying game "Dungeons & Dragons" and the innocent cartoon "The Smurfs" were sinister/malevolent & had hidden meanings, etc. is patently ludicrous.

-I can see how MT could have made the connections between DB & the alleged "cult" due to the close proximity of DB's apartment to the house of the Carr brother (JC & MC), Untermeyer park, etc.

-Yes, there may have been some kind of "cults" that existed in this area where DB lived that "sacrificed" animals, etc. But, I don't necessarily think that DB knew these people and/or associated with them. And, I don't think that they had anything to do with the SOS killings; though they may have been involved in other killings.

-I have concerns about the veracity of what DB is telling MT during the two interviews we saw portions of in the doc. (1993 & 1997). It seems to me that MT is "feeding" DB info. & DB is telling him what he wants to hear. I.e., instead of MT asking DB exactly what happened (which is what he should have done), I see DB picking up on what MT is asking/telling & then forming the narrative around this info.

-I definitely do not believe DB when he says he didn't do all/most of the killings.

-I don't see the "eyewitness accounts" as describing someone who didn't look like DB as being too much of an issue. These types of accounts are notoriously unreliable; most of these happened at night/early evening when it was either dark or getting dark and it would have been hard to make out facial/body details, etc.; and, they all happened relatively quickly.

-The final SOS murder was the killing of SM & the blinding of her bf, RV. This is the one that the doc. claims couldn't have been done by DB because he got a parking ticket a distance away. But, he still could have walked several blocks, done the killings, and then walked back to his car.

-After DB was arrested, the killings stopped - which strongly indicated that he was the sole SOS killer. Yes, I know those that believe a cult existed will argue that the Carr Bros. were also SOS killers & the reason the killings stopped (after DB's arrest) was because they both died under 'mysterious' circumstances. However, if this truly was a "cult" that was doing the killings, an organization like this (with multiple people) would have had others that should have continued these. Also, John Carr died six months after DB's arrest, and Michael Carr died two years after the arrest. Why weren't there any more killings after the arrest & before they passed?! Again, this strongly points to DB acting alone.

-I agree that MT unfortunately became obsessed with proving that DB didn't act alone. And, apparently trying to prove this took over his life & ruined his health. Sad.

I think that Berkowitz didn't act alone, but I don't think there was a satanic cult. I think the Carrs were involved, and maybe one other person, but it wasn't a cult.

I think that Maura Terry was on the right path, but lost it by becoming obsessed and wanting to find out why the killings happened. Sometimes, people are just evil, and it's easy to explain. His obsession with wanting to find out why they were evil, consumed him, and the cult theory took over and was ludicrous.

No satanic cult, no human sacrifices, no nation wide conspiracy, it was just a group of sick evil people killing.

Recently finished watching The Sons of Sam: A Descent into Darkness Netflix 4-part documentary. Very well-done, thoroughly researched, and extremely gripping/compelling/intriguing. Also liked the Season of the Witch (Donovan, 1966) "theme" song for the series - very appropriate. I still think DB almost certainly acted alone re: the SOS killings. But, this does present an "alternate take" on this, even though I don't believe that it happened this way.

Some thoughts:

-This panic about cults, etc. that came up in the '70's/'80's was ridiculous & IMHO had little to no veracity. Specifically, the idea that the roleplaying game "Dungeons & Dragons" and the innocent cartoon "The Smurfs" were sinister/malevolent & had hidden meanings, etc. is patently ludicrous.

-I can see how MT could have made the connections between DB & the alleged "cult" due to the close proximity of DB's apartment to the house of the Carr brother (JC & MC), Untermeyer park, etc.

-Yes, there may have been some kind of "cults" that existed in this area where DB lived that "sacrificed" animals, etc. But, I don't necessarily think that DB knew these people and/or associated with them. And, I don't think that they had anything to do with the SOS killings; though they may have been involved in other killings.

-I have concerns about the veracity of what DB is telling MT during the two interviews we saw portions of in the doc. (1993 & 1997). It seems to me that MT is "feeding" DB info. & DB is telling him what he wants to hear. I.e., instead of MT asking DB exactly what happened (which is what he should have done), I see DB picking up on what MT is asking/telling & then forming the narrative around this info.

-I definitely do not believe DB when he says he didn't do all/most of the killings.

-I don't see the "eyewitness accounts" as describing someone who didn't look like DB as being too much of an issue. These types of accounts are notoriously unreliable; most of these happened at night/early evening when it was either dark or getting dark and it would have been hard to make out facial/body details, etc.; and, they all happened relatively quickly.

-The final SOS murder was the killing of SM & the blinding of her bf, RV. This is the one that the doc. claims couldn't have been done by DB because he got a parking ticket a distance away. But, he still could have walked several blocks, done the killings, and then walked back to his car.

-After DB was arrested, the killings stopped - which strongly indicated that he was the sole SOS killer. Yes, I know those that believe a cult existed will argue that the Carr Bros. were also SOS killers & the reason the killings stopped (after DB's arrest) was because they both died under 'mysterious' circumstances. However, if this truly was a "cult" that was doing the killings, an organization like this (with multiple people) would have had others that should have continued these. Also, John Carr died six months after DB's arrest, and Michael Carr died two years after the arrest. Why weren't there any more killings after the arrest & before they passed?! Again, this strongly points to DB acting alone.

-I agree that MT unfortunately became obsessed with proving that DB didn't act alone. And, apparently trying to prove this took over his life & ruined his health. Sad.

There may have been more murders, the group could very well have simply changed their MO after Berkowitz was caught. I think its highly unlikely he acted alone. The Carr brothers were likely involved and at least two others as well still at large.

And for whatever reason it seems there has been a movement in recent years to try to prove cults never existed. Not sure why. Probably a way of trying to paint people of faith as loons.

This case has troubled me for many years. I read Terry's book shortly after it came out back in the later 80's. I backed away from this case for years but I found a link to an interesting article that is probably old news to most here. Berkowitz gives specific claims about what murders the Carr brothers were involved in. I never knew this. I'm not saying this whole multiple killers is true but some of those sketches do resemble the Carr brothers. That's something that has stayed with me. https://www.bustle.com/entertainment/john-michael-carr-son-of-sam-connection

Excellent points, Latka Gravas!

I believe Berkowitz was a part of a cult who committed the murders. I truly believe the Brooklyn shootings were the best evidence of the multiple shooter theory. No way he covered all that distance in the time window.

The fact that many witnesses described a thinner, taller man as the shooter and a different car in the area definitely lends to the idea that Berkowitz did not act alone.

I think that Berkowitz didn't act alone, but I don't think there was a satanic cult. I think the Carrs were involved, and maybe one other person, but it wasn't a cult.

I think that Maura Terry was on the right path, but lost it by becoming obsessed and wanting to find out why the killings happened. Sometimes, people are just evil, and it's easy to explain. His obsession with wanting to find out why they were evil, consumed him, and the cult theory took over and was ludicrous.

No satanic cult, no human sacrifices, no nation wide conspiracy, it was just a group of sick evil people killing.

So that begs the question, what would you consider a cult? We know Berkowitz and the Carrs both engaged in Satanism. And as I said, it seems likely from all we know there were at least two other people involved in the shootings still at large, possibly more.

It just seems that you are joining this "there was no cult" movement by trying hard to prove there wasn't when you really don't know. None of us really know for sure. Berkowitz by his own admission expects to remain in prison for the rest of his life, he has admitted that he carried out about half the Son of Sam shootings. So he doesn't have much to gain by lying. And what about the meetings witnessed in Central Park in 1987 where they found the dead dogs?

And for whatever reason it seems there has been a movement in recent years to try to prove cults never existed. Not sure why.

I hear you on this. There has been too much of an extreme in regards to pushback about cults and the crimes they have committed. But at the same time, there were many examples where satanic panic went overboard and tried to invent evils that were never there. So the truth is somewhere in the middle. They can apply in some cases but not in others.

For instance, the lengths that prosecutors went to in the West Memphis 3 to paint those three teenage boys as not only killers but satanic cult members and worshipers was absurd. Growing your hair long, wearing black clothing and Metallica t-shirts does not make you an admirer of Satan and willing to kill innocent people for him. But you take the setting - a very small, conservative town in rural Arkansas in the early 90's, and the residents just eat that all up. You're basically just painting a BS picture of pure evil for the jury to make up for the fact that you have no physical evidence tying those boys to the murders...AND IT WORKED!!!

But then you take the UM case of Shane Stewart and Sally McNelly. There’s not a doubt in my mind that they were killed by the same satanic cult members they used to be a part of. You have a reliable witness (Sally’s friend Helen) who saw these whack-jobs up close. You have Sally’s mother overhearing these same people cheering that they had caught a demon in a bottle. We have proof that the cult members wanted to start engaging in illegal activity which is why Shane and Sally left the group and turned the gun they were given in to the police. You have Sally on record telling Helen that she’s afraid said cult members are going to kill her and then her and Shane conveniently ending up dead from shotgun blasts. What else am I supposed to think?

I do NOT think David Berkowitz acted alone. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he and the Carr brothers were part of a cult. Though, it can’t be conclusively proven either way. But I also don’t think I’d be surprised either way. Some cases deserve the side eye when satanic panic comes into play, some do not and some are definite maybes. Writing off ALL satanic cults is extremely naïve.

Berkowitz's story re: who was responsible for the SOS killings has changed over the years.

When he was initially arrested back in 1977, he claimed that he did all of the shootings/killings himself & that a demonic "dog" told him to do them. Then, he later said there was no devil-dog.

Then, when MT was interviewing him in the '90's (as was seen in the Netflix doc.) he admitted to others having been involved in the shootings - after MT asked him leading questions.

So, which is it?! Either he acted alone, or he didn't - but both can't be true. Did a dog-devil tell him to do the killings due to his delusions, or did he just make this up?!

I.e., Berkowitz is obviously not credible.

Berkowitz's story re: who was responsible for the SOS killings has changed over the years.

When he was initially arrested back in 1977, he claimed that he did all of the shootings/killings & that a demonic "dog" told him to do them. Then, he later said there was no devil-dog.

Then, when MT was interviewing him in the '90's (as was seen in the Netflix doc.) he admitted to others having been involved in the shootings - after MT asked him leading questions.

So, which is it?! Either he acted alone, or he didn't - but both can't be true. Did a dog-devil tell him to do the killings due to his delusions, or did he just make this up?!

I.e., Berkowitz is obviously not credible.

Neither I believe are the eyewitness accounts, the idea of him & a cult is as believable as Lucas & Toole's Hand Of Death cult. May be unsexy, but he did all the murders himself.

Berkowitz's story re: who was responsible for the SOS killings has changed over the years.

When he was initially arrested back in 1977, he claimed that he did all of the shootings/killings himself & that a demonic "dog" told him to do them. Then, he later said there was no devil-dog.

Then, when MT was interviewing him in the '90's (as was seen in the Netflix doc.) he admitted to others having been involved in the shootings - after MT asked him leading questions.

So, which is it?! Either he acted alone, or he didn't - but both can't be true. Did a dog-devil tell him to do the killings due to his delusions, or did he just make this up?!

I.e., Berkowitz is obviously not credible.

Actually, Berkowitz has been pretty consistent in recent years. Its common knowledge he claimed he did all the murders at first, once he began reforming and claiming to be a born again Christian his story became consistent: 1. He was the triggerman in some but not all of the shootings. 2. The Carr brothers were involved, 3. A female did one of the shootings, 4. Another man did the Stacy Moscowitts shooting who is still at large. 5. That he has refrained from naming the other shooters for fear of retaliation against his family.

Neither I believe are the eyewitness accounts, the idea of him & a cult is as believable as Lucas & Toole's Hand Of Death cult. May be unsexy, but he did all the murders himself.

Unlikely.

I hear you on this. There has been too much of an extreme in regards to pushback about cults and the crimes they have committed. But at the same time, there were many examples where satanic panic went overboard and tried to invent evils that were never there. So the truth is somewhere in the middle. They can apply in some cases but not in others.

For instance, the lengths that prosecutors went to in the West Memphis 3 to paint those three teenage boys as not only killers but satanic cult members and worshipers was absurd. Growing your hair long, wearing black clothing and Metallica t-shirts does not make you an admirer of Satan and willing to kill innocent people for him. But you take the setting - a very small, conservative town in rural Arkansas in the early 90's, and the residents just eat that all up. You're basically just painting a BS picture of pure evil for the jury to make up for the fact that you have no physical evidence tying those boys to the murders...AND IT WORKED!!!

But then you take the UM case of Shane Stewart and Sally McNelly. There’s not a doubt in my mind that they were killed by the same satanic cult members they used to be a part of. You have a reliable witness (Sally’s friend Helen) who saw these whack-jobs up close. You have Sally’s mother overhearing these same people cheering that they had caught a demon in a bottle. We have proof that the cult members wanted to start engaging in illegal activity which is why Shane and Sally left the group and turned the gun they were given in to the police. You have Sally on record telling Helen that she’s afraid said cult members are going to kill her and then her and Shane conveniently ending up dead from shotgun blasts. What else am I supposed to think?

I do NOT think David Berkowitz acted alone. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he and the Carr brothers were part of a cult. Though, it can’t be conclusively proven either way. But I also don’t think I’d be surprised either way. Some cases deserve the side eye when satanic panic comes into play, some do not and some are definite maybes. Writing off ALL satanic cults is extremely naïve.

All this is pretty much spot on. Obviously thinking anyone is part of a satanic cult due to how they dress or that they listen to rock music is utterly absurd. I've loved rock my whole life, never even thought of worshipping Satan.

But like you said, its just ridiculous to act like they never existed. And its mostly spear headed by people who weren't even alive in the 70's and 80's.

For one thing, its actually an exaggeration to call it a Satanic panic. As someone who grew up in the 80's I can tell you it was not a panic. Were people aware of it and considered it a possibility in many cases? Yeah. But this notion that it kept so many people up at night is silly.

There has been a desire by many people to rewrite history lately to conform to a certain narrative in my opinion. Its dangerous and wrong.

he did all the murders himself.


agreed. never understood people who took serial killers at their word. him saying a satanic cult helped is just his way of trying to not take full responsibility.

that fat little doofy meatball shot them all

agreed. never understood people who took serial killers at their word. him saying a satanic cult helped is just his way of trying to not take full responsibility.

that fat little doofy meatball shot them all

I don't think they are taking just his word for it. They are going by the varied descriptions of the shooters, the fact there are two other named suspects with circumstantial evidence connecting them to Berkowitz (The Carr brothers who both died under mysterious circumstances shortly after the murders) and one of whom happens to look almost identical to one of the composite drawings, and the fact that Berkowitz almost physically could not have shot Stacie Moscowitts as he was known to be at least two blocks away.

And Berkowitz really has nothing to gain by lying at this point.

I don't think they are taking just his word for it. They are going by the varied descriptions of the shooters, the fact there are two other named suspects with circumstantial evidence connecting them to Berkowitz (The Carr brothers who both died under mysterious circumstances shortly after the murders) and one of whom happens to look almost identical to one of the composite drawings, and the fact that Berkowitz almost physically could not have shot Stacie Moscowitts as he was known to be at least two blocks away.

The Carr brothers were his neighors correct? What linked them to Berkowitz? Didn't one of the Carr brothers die from a suicide?


And Berkowitz really has nothing to gain by lying at this point.

Lol yes he does. His story has changed multiple times, and he has told inmates that he has lied about certain things (religion) so he can get out early.

Also the amount of stupid groupies and people who "feel sorry for him" will keep his books full. He has a good amount to gain from lying. He clearly loves attention, and people are clearly giving it to him. The bad-turned-religious famous inmate will keep dumb people flocking to him willing to pay him for interviews, giving him money to put on his books etc.

If he just said "im guilty. i did it" then you would barely hear about him nowadays. Since he's claiming a "cult" was in on it, and other things like Cujo told him to do it, people are eating out the palm of his chubby little hands because he seems more "fascinating" because of his little lies. He was even caught lying about having schizophrenia to the FBI

He did it. He did all of it.

Ya'll are giving Berkowitz way too much credit. "oooooOOOOo he was part of a cult" "oOOo he had people helping him"

Berkowitz was a short, fat, lonely, sexually frustrated loser who killed women/couples because he was jealous that he couldn't get a woman himself. He was anti-social and introverted.

What kind of cult/people would help this goofy schlub kill people? for what? what did some secret satanic "cult" get out of shooting people for this tubby dork? he didn't have that much pull, no one talked to him.

he shot those women because he couldn't get one and had mother issues. that's it.

Ya'll are giving Berkowitz way too much credit. "oooooOOOOo he was part of a cult" "oOOo he had people helping him"

Berkowitz was a short, fat, lonely, sexually frustrated loser who killed women/couples because he was jealous that he couldn't get a woman himself. He was anti-social and introverted.

What kind of cult/people would help this goofy schlub kill people? for what? what did some secret satanic "cult" get out of shooting people for this tubby dork? he didn't have that much pull, no one talked to him.

he shot those women because he couldn't get one and had mother issues. that's it.

Agree with all of this. You have to remember that those being killed by SOS were not just random shootings designed to "instill chaos/fear in society". DB specifically targeted women and couples that were parked & probably making out at the time - due to his being frustrated & jealous.

Agree with all of this. You have to remember that those being killed by SOS were not just random shootings. He specifically targeted women and couples that were parked & probably making out at the time - due to being frustrated & jealous.

I agree with all of the points you made on the third page as well. You made some great points

The Carr brothers were his neighors correct? What linked them to Berkowitz? Didn't one of the Carr brothers die from a suicide?




Lol yes he does. His story has changed multiple times, and he has told inmates that he has lied about certain things (religion) so he can get out early.

Also the amount of stupid groupies and people who "feel sorry for him" will keep his books full. He has a good amount to gain from lying. He clearly loves attention, and people are clearly giving it to him. The bad-turned-religious famous inmate will keep dumb people flocking to him willing to pay him for interviews, giving him money to put on his books etc.

If he just said "im guilty. i did it" then you would barely hear about him nowadays. Since he's claiming a "cult" was in on it, and other things like Cujo told him to do it, people are eating out the palm of his chubby little hands because he seems more "fascinating" because of his little lies. He was even caught lying about having schizophrenia to the FBI

He did it. He did all of it.

I never heard of any inmates who told them he said he was trying to get out, but even if it is true, you got to consider the source. Plus, he has rejected his parole hearings for years, so he clearly is not trying to get out. Could he have other motivations for putting this story out? Sure. But its not to get out of prison.

The thing is, most of the circumstantial evidence points to more than one person being involved. I did some research on the case and re-watched the segment and came up with this:

1. The circumstantial evidence connecting John Carr to the shootings is pretty compelling. Not only was he the literal Son of Sam, but he was implicated in the letter from the Son of Sam killer as John Wheaties. He also just happened to resemble one of the killer composites, he was closely associated with Berkowtiz, both were known to be involved in cult activity, and the guy apparently committed suicide before being confronted by police. And his brother Michael also resembled one of the composites. People have every reason to be skeptical of eyewitness testimony, but composite sketches are accurate more often than not. Look at EAR, people got only fleeting glimpses of him at best and still the composites looked somewhat like him at the time. One resembled Berkowitz as well, so if you assume that Berkowitz did all the shooting, you have to assume one eyewitness got it right and the rest didn't, which is dubious at best. And that the composites also happened to match two close Berkowitz associates is an unlikely coincidence.

2. A yellow Volkswagen was seen at several of the shootings not just Stacy Moscowitts, which could not be tied to either Berkowitz or the Carrs.

3. Investigators determined that one of the shootings was likely done by someone relatively small and weak who had a hard time with the recoil of the 44 caliber Bulldog. That would not apply to Berkowitz, who was a heavy set man and trained with firearms in the army. Berkowitz said a female did this one shooting which would fit what the investigators found out. Ironically, Berkowitz may have actually been the most effective Son of Sam shooter, as three of the four victims he shot at in the two shootings he claims he did participate in died, whereas the other shootings the shooters went three for nine as far as killing their victims, which gives weight to what he said as well. I got these figures from six dead, seven wounded, which means a total of 13 people were shot.

4. The handwriting on the letters allegedly sent by the Son of Sam killer apparently did not match Berkowitz' handwriting. Including the one left at the scene of one of the shootings, which almost had to be from the shooter or one of the shooters, or of course someone in the cult.

5. There was known to be cult activity and dead dogs found in Utermeyer Park near where the shootings took place. Though it isn't clear if any of the people in the cult were ever identified.

Is any of this absolute proof of Berkowitz not acting alone? No. And I don't expect it to change your mind as I have observed you tend to stay pretty entrenched in your opinions. But it is pretty strong circumstantial evidence, and the letters not in Berkowitz handwriting would probably be physical evidence. I'd have to say based on all this there is a 60-70% chance Berkowitz did not act alone, and that may be Conservative.

Watched the four shows & it is pretty clear Terry was totally consumed & unobjective & was leaping to irrational conclusions.

1. DB clearly lied to him about the church murder-in 2018 it was proven that the security guard had done it & there was no cult that had stalked her across the US.

2. Radin was murdered by a female drug baron over financing for the Cotton Club, it had nothing to do with a cult/SOS.

3. It was plain that people-including some of the victims parents just couldn't believe this odd looking individual was capable of killing on his own, so it was easy for them to buy into his cult of death nonsense.

4. Clearly DB loved attention & Terry provided this for him in spades. You could see Terry was totally leading the interviews with him in the 1990's & DB was basically just confirming what he was saying-what the police used to do in miscarriage of justice cases.

5. DB himself actually proves himself the total opposite of people's perception of some rambling madman, actually coming across as a calm, calculating person. Wouldn't surprise me if the letters he wrote was dropping clues to lead the cops to the Carr's to deflect any suspicion from himself. Not only was he confirming what Terry wanted to hear, but also what he wanted Terry to hear & push-national attention to where he cops to some shootings, but not the rest & the public then might push a free him campaign for his first parole hearing in 2002.

Wouldn't surprise me if the letters he wrote was dropping clues to lead the cops to the Carr's to deflect any suspicion from himself. Not only was he confirming what Terry wanted to hear, but also what he wanted Terry to hear & push-national attention to where he cops to some shootings, but not the rest & the public then might push a free him campaign for his first parole hearing in 2002.

oi mate. im chuffed to bloody bits. you 'it the nail on the 'ead with that one mate!

like you said, the Berkowtiz bloke shot em' all, and then tried to lead suspicion to the Carr bruvs. I think the Carr bruvs had bugger all to do with the shootings

that Maury Terry bloke was short of a picnic sandwich or summat

Watched the four shows & it is pretty clear Terry was totally consumed & unobjective & was leaping to irrational conclusions.

1. DB clearly lied to him about the church murder-in 2018 it was proven that the security guard had done it & there was no cult that had stalked her across the US.

2. Radin was murdered by a female drug baron over financing for the Cotton Club, it had nothing to do with a cult/SOS.

3. It was plain that people-including some of the victims parents just couldn't believe this odd looking individual was capable of killing on his own, so it was easy for them to buy into his cult of death nonsense.

4. Clearly DB loved attention & Terry provided this for him in spades. You could see Terry was totally leading the interviews with him in the 1990's & DB was basically just confirming what he was saying-what the police used to do in miscarriage of justice cases.

5. DB himself actually proves himself the total opposite of people's perception of some rambling madman, actually coming across as a calm, calculating person. Wouldn't surprise me if the letters he wrote was dropping clues to lead the cops to the Carr's to deflect any suspicion from himself. Not only was he confirming what Terry wanted to hear, but also what he wanted Terry to hear & push-national attention to where he cops to some shootings, but not the rest & the public then might push a free him campaign for his first parole hearing in 2002.

Except that the letters didn't match Berkowitz's handwriting.

Except that the letters didn't match Berkowitz's handwriting.

Except the cops found another letter in his car when he was arrested in the same handwriting & his fingerprints matched those on letters.

https://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/berkowitz-letters.htm

https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/pGt0gmONJbB-gBd-5Joaaebk0DE=/800x1145/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/YB3RAULDZLW2O2QF4WXHVLJS6A.jpg

Except the cops found another letter in his car when he was arrested in the same handwriting & his fingerprints matched those on letters.

https://murderpedia.org/male.B/b/berkowitz-letters.htm

https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/pGt0gmONJbB-gBd-5Joaaebk0DE=/800x1145/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/YB3RAULDZLW2O2QF4WXHVLJS6A.jpg

That doesn't really refute my point. The idea is he was set up to be the fall guy and naturally had all this in his car. He handled them, it doesn't necessarily prove he wrote them.

Here is the article that documented the failure to match the letters to his handwriting:

https://eminetra.co.uk/a-survivor-of-sams-son-serial-killer-david-berkowitz-says-he-was-shot-by-an-accomplice-of-occult-priestess-who-evaded-police-officers/452991/

It was not really the block style printing that people often use to disguise their handwriting either, it was fairly distinctive.

This is among the others reasons I don't think he acted alone, and some of it was confirmed by actual investigators which was a big reason the case was re-opened. Rarely does law enforcement reopen a case unless their is good reason to.

Interestingly there is also a suspect they believe may have been the female shooter who has never been named but is 71 years old now.

And the composites from the shootings Berkowitz said he was not the shooter, just happen not to match him either.

Am I saying there were definitely others involved? No, obviously none of us know because none of us were there.

I think its likely though given the facts and circumstantial evidence there were.

I don't understand why it's never crossed Maury Terry's mind that it was entirely possible that Berkowitz dropped hints in his letters to try and deflect attention away from him. He's also never plausibly been able to describe how John Carr, who had been living in North Dakota since 1974 (https://thecinemaholic.com/how-did-john-and-michael-carr-die-did-someone-kill-them/) was able to participate in the murders. Nor has there ever been any concrete proof that Berkowitz ever even knew John Carr.

That doesn't really refute my point. The idea is he was set up to be the fall guy and naturally had all this in his car. He handled them, it doesn't necessarily prove he wrote them.

Here is the article that documented the failure to match the letters to his handwriting:

https://eminetra.co.uk/a-survivor-of-sams-son-serial-killer-david-berkowitz-says-he-was-shot-by-an-accomplice-of-occult-priestess-who-evaded-police-officers/452991/

It was not really the block style printing that people often use to disguise their handwriting either, it was fairly distinctive.

This is among the others reasons I don't think he acted alone, and some of it was confirmed by actual investigators which was a big reason the case was re-opened. Rarely does law enforcement reopen a case unless their is good reason to.

Interestingly there is also a suspect they believe may have been the female shooter who has never been named but is 71 years old now.

And the composites from the shootings Berkowitz said he was not the shooter, just happen not to match him either.

Am I saying there were definitely others involved? No, obviously none of us know because none of us were there.

I think its likely though given the facts and circumstantial evidence there were.

1. Who did the handwriting analysis on him in the late 1970's? How many experts did they consult? There doesn't seem to be any details out there.

2. How advanced was it compared to the modern era when experts use computers & other modern techniques?

3. It is quite possible he did have somebody else write the letters for him, however that doesn't mean they committed the murders in conjunction with him, or even thought that he was anything more than a crank wasting police time.

4. Were all the letters the same handwriting? It is possible one or more of them were sent by crank copycats.

I don't understand why it's never crossed Maury Terry's mind that it was entirely possible that Berkowitz dropped hints in his letters to try and deflect attention away from him. He's also never plausibly been able to describe how John Carr, who had been living in North Dakota since 1974 (https://thecinemaholic.com/how-did-john-and-michael-carr-die-did-someone-kill-them/) was able to participate in the murders. Nor has there ever been any concrete proof that Berkowitz ever even knew John Carr.

The series made it clear he wouldn't even contemplate anything that didn't fit his theories, his arrogance was made clear late on in the series when the guy on the talk show said he was being used by DB & Terry shot back rudely with insults. Then when he had the audacity to tell the guy who had been shot in the head it wasn't his case. The man went down a rabbit hole that cost him his wife, his career & his friends/acquaintances.

I don't understand why it's never crossed Maury Terry's mind that it was entirely possible that Berkowitz dropped hints in his letters to try and deflect attention away from him. He's also never plausibly been able to describe how John Carr, who had been living in North Dakota since 1974 (https://thecinemaholic.com/how-did-john-and-michael-carr-die-did-someone-kill-them/) was able to participate in the murders. Nor has there ever been any concrete proof that Berkowitz ever even knew John Carr.

Pretty well established John Carr regularly commuted to New York City and had a house there. And its not like he had to be there all the time to participate in the murders.

Plus, whoever wrote the Son of Sam letters had to have known Carr well, because it referred to him as John Wheaties, which was his actual knickname and something only a relatively close acquaintance would know. So if you assume it was Berkowitz then you have to assume it was likely Berkowitz knew him.

I'm pretty sure several witnesses stated Berkowitz and the Carrs knew eachother. And its a pretty unlikely coincidence two of the composites just happened to match them.

I just don't think the composites are easy to discount either, especially since the ones from the shootings where Berkowitz claims he was not the shooter just happen NOT to match his description.

Granted, I personally didn't think the composites were as different from each other as what they said, I thought two of them actually resembled each other, but the wavy haired one and one other one looked different.

And of course, the Moscowitts shooter looked completely different and apparently drove a vehicle that has never been connected to Berkowitz.

Maury Terry may have been obsessed with the theory beyond what he should have been, but it doesn't mean there was no truth to it.

I didn't think the composites were especially good-like most eyewitness accounts they vary & not surprising in this case as aside from how faulty memory is we have to remember these attacks were happening at nighttime & were very quick encounters as the perpetrator shot them right away & fled the scene immediately in a hurried fashion. How good was the lighting in those areas? How good was the eyesight of the witnesses? Were they wearing glasses they needed? I go out without wearing glasses & see well enough to cross roads, but any sort of distance is not clear-so I would make a terrible eyewitness if I stumbled across something like an assault & wasn't a few feet away.

I didn't see any great similarity between Carr & the photo-fits, one looked somewhat like Berkowitz, but again I am not convinced that if you lined up 50 random New York males with dark hair you would be able to pick him out based on them either. Just like the times & days are probably wrong in a lot of cases as people came forward after the event-well known that people retrofit due to faulty memory, trying to help, police influence & most importantly what they are reading in the papers & see on the news. It has been proven that we incorporate media details into our recollection of what happened, rather than what actually transpired. The dog lady was very unconvincing.

Pretty well established John Carr regularly commuted to New York City and had a house there. And its not like he had to be there all the time to participate in the murders.

Carr's father lived in New York, in Yonkers. It's possible that he could have traveled repeatedly from North Dakota to NYC to commit "cult" murders, but highly unlikely.

Plus, whoever wrote the Son of Sam letters had to have known Carr well, because it referred to him as John Wheaties, which was his actual knickname and something only a relatively close acquaintance would know. So if you assume it was Berkowitz then you have to assume it was likely Berkowitz knew him.

This (https://thecinemaholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/img.jpg) article says that the Carr's had a sister. Her name? Wheat. There's the "Wheaties" connection.

I'm pretty sure several witnesses stated Berkowitz and the Carrs knew eachother. And its a pretty unlikely coincidence two of the composites just happened to match them.

All of the composite sketches resemble Berkowitz more than either Carr brother. And, according to the Innocence Project (https://www.apmreports.org/story/2016/09/20/police-composite-sketch), 70% of wrongful convictions that were overturned by DNA mistaken eyewitnesses were a primary factor in those convictions. Meaning, just because someone says that the shooter they saw absolutely was not Berkowitz, is meaningless. Eyewitnesses are notorious for being wrong.

Maury Terry may have been obsessed with the theory beyond what he should have been, but it doesn't mean there was no truth to it.

The problem is, you need evidence besides "the composites didn't all look like Berkowitz", of which Maury Terry has never really produced over the years. He couldn't even conclusively link Berkowitz to the Carrs, or a cult.

Carr's father lived in New York, in Yonkers. It's possible that he could have traveled repeatedly from North Dakota to NYC to commit "cult" murders, but highly unlikely.



This (https://thecinemaholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/img.jpg) article says that the Carr's had a sister. Her name? Wheat. There's the "Wheaties" connection.



All of the composite sketches resemble Berkowitz more than either Carr brother. And, according to the Innocence Project (https://www.apmreports.org/story/2016/09/20/police-composite-sketch), 70% of wrongful convictions that were overturned by DNA mistaken eyewitnesses were a primary factor in those convictions. Meaning, just because someone says that the shooter they saw absolutely was not Berkowitz, is meaningless. Eyewitnesses are notorious for being wrong.



The problem is, you need evidence besides "the composites didn't all look like Berkowitz", of which Maury Terry has never really produced over the years. He couldn't even conclusively link Berkowitz to the Carrs, or a cult.

That's definitely a matter of opinion. I think you ought to go back and look at them. And the Stacy Moscowitts shooter definitely did not look like Berkowitz.

And according to Berkowitz, Carr was likely only involved in a one or two of the shootings, meaning he only had to be in New York two nights.

It is a shame with MT-if he had just left it at the slack & rushed job the cops did rather than Satanic Cults then he might have raised a lot of doubts in people's minds. The crazy part is it is almost certain if DB had plead not guilty then he wouldn't have been convicted-seeing as they searched his car illegally & so that evidence would have all been inadmissible. Not sure if he had legal representation-but if so then his lawyer sucked.

That's definitely a matter of opinion. I think you ought to go back and look at them. And the Stacy Moscowitts shooter definitely did not look like Berkowitz.

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/1cd62efc719bdecb0d359e9edb58cdbb4f94f48b/c=0-0-3834-5113/local/-/media/2017/07/31/Westchester/Westchester/636371062695978537-The-Journal-News-Thu-Aug-11-1977-.jpg?quality=50&width=640

Berkowitz in the army:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUNRhAjU0AApG4b?format=jpg&name=large

The shootings occurred over the course of a year. Berkowitz could have changed hairstyles, put on or lost weight, etc. over that time span. Neither Carr brother looks anything any composite sketch.

John:

https://thecinemaholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/John-Carr-1.jpg

Michael:

https://thecinemaholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Michael-Carr-2.jpg

Also, it seems weird to me that this cult would have members from as far away as North Dakota, who would hold all of their activities in a park (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/45+Pine+St,+Yonkers,+NY+10701/Industrial+Fabrication,+316+Warburton+Ave,+Yonkers,+NY+10701/Untermyer+Park+and+Gardens,+North+Broadway,+Yonkers,+NY/@40.9543154,-73.9001897,3377m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m20!4m19!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2ed838b7c1249:0xb7979c274151f313!2m2!1d-73.8949988!2d40.9462344!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2ed869a2c4a19:0xc6cb21a8d643d7ca!2m2!1d-73.8964212!2d40.9465182!1m5!1m1!1s0x89c2ed0835a9f315:0x844cbd353c1d036d!2m2!1d-73.8859748!2d40.9659926!3e0) that was 2.5 miles away from where they lived. Again, Maury Terry cannot link Berkowitz to Untermeyer Park.

And maybe it's just me, but if I was involved in the Son of Sam murders in conjunction with Berkowitz, I don't think I would have sat down for an interview with the New York Times to complain (https://www.nytimes.com/1977/09/21/archives/notoriety-haunts-reallife-sam-reallife-sam-says-notoriety-is.html) about the notoriety the case was bringing me, let alone speak about the continued harassment from Berkowitz. You would think they would want to distance themselves as far away from the case as possible. And I certainly wouldn't have consented to having my picture taken (which is where the photo above of Michael comes from).

If you see no resemblance between John Carr and that June 27th sketch or the one next to it, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Its almost a dead ringer. If anything Carr looks more like that one than Berkowitz resembles the one on the far right which looks most like him.

And you left out the wavy haired one and the one of the Stacy Moscowitts shooter, neither of which looks anything like either of Berkowitz or Carr.

Again, I can't say for certain Berkowitz didn't act alone. None of us were there. But to dismiss it completely is just disingenuous given all the facts.

If you see no resemblance between John Carr and that June 27th sketch or the one next to it, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Its almost a dead ringer. If anything Carr looks more like that one than Berkowitz resembles the one on the far right which looks most like him.

And you left out the wavy haired one and the one of the Stacy Moscowitts shooter, neither of which looks anything like either of Berkowitz or Carr.

Again, I can't say for certain Berkowitz didn't act alone. None of us were there. But to dismiss it completely is just disingenuous given all the facts.

Looks more like Paul McCartney, Carr looks more like John Lennon-it is all in the eye of the beholder.

But to dismiss it completely is just disingenuous given all the facts.

What facts?

There is nothing but speculation about the Carr's involvement. No one can place them as having known or associated with Berkowitz. There is nothing concrete tying them to the murders, outside of the name "Wheaties" and blaming their father's dog as the one who gave him orders to murder. Berkowitz was a prototype for the incel of today; angry, lonely, and misogynistic.

Maury Terry might've fallen off the deep end with some of the conclusions in his book, but even still, this Investigative Reports segment (link (https://youtu.be/4JepFcuZVuo)) has me convinced the 'Process Church' had a hand in this somehow.

You can label DB however you want and ascribe whatever motive you want to him. To me, there's just no consistency (or not enough of it) for me to believe he's the one and only shooter.

Maury Terry might've fallen off the deep end with some of the conclusions in his book, but even still, this Investigative Reports segment (link (https://youtu.be/4JepFcuZVuo)) has me convinced the 'Process Church' had a hand in this somehow.

You can label DB however you want and ascribe whatever motive you want to him. To me, there's just no consistency (or not enough of it) for me to believe he's the one and only shooter.

What would the Process Church motive be?

Maury Terry might've fallen off the deep end with some of the conclusions in his book, but even still, this Investigative Reports segment (link (https://youtu.be/4JepFcuZVuo)) has me convinced the 'Process Church' had a hand in this somehow.

You can label DB however you want and ascribe whatever motive you want to him. To me, there's just no consistency (or not enough of it) for me to believe he's the one and only shooter.

Thank you for posting this. I was going to post the video link as well but never did . The video now requires age verification (it's been up for years but didn't used to require sign-in). I still get a kick out of the one guy's costume (the law enforcement agent in silhouette). It looks like the Undertaker's garb from his 1999 run (albeit with a baseball hat on). The Investigative Reports episode is fantastic.

I have been looking for the Ira Einhorn Investigative Reports episode but have not been able to find it. The one on Youtube is not in English and is not subtitled.

What would the Process Church motive be?

From the following link (click here (https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/crimefeed/crime-history/unholy-communion-does-a-satanic-cult-connect-son-of-sam-to-charles-manson))


"Decorated former NYPD Detectives Jim Rothstein and Michael Cordella espouse not just the multiple-shooter notion, but that the Process Church enacted the entire campaign. Both ex-cops state that they came to this conclusion after being involved when the city reopened the Son of Sam case in the early 1990s, looking to tie up loose ends.

Codella says that, in America, the Process Church established ties with outlaw biker gangs, primarily to make money by running drugs, but also for human trafficking and other unsavory criminal activities. Cordella further alleges that one of his biker informants personally witnessed the Process sacrifice a human being."

From the following link (click here (https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/crimefeed/crime-history/unholy-communion-does-a-satanic-cult-connect-son-of-sam-to-charles-manson))


"Decorated former NYPD Detectives Jim Rothstein and Michael Cordella espouse not just the multiple-shooter notion, but that the Process Church enacted the entire campaign. Both ex-cops state that they came to this conclusion after being involved when the city reopened the Son of Sam case in the early 1990s, looking to tie up loose ends.

Codella says that, in America, the Process Church established ties with outlaw biker gangs, primarily to make money by running drugs, but also for human trafficking and other unsavory criminal activities. Cordella further alleges that one of his biker informants personally witnessed the Process sacrifice a human being."

I don't know if the Process Church did any of that, but if they did, then killing random beautiful women/couples seem off their mark

I am uncertain of this case as well. I tend to believe he acted alone. But, that being said, it is odd that while only two of the composite sketches resemble David, that at least one of the sketches resembles, very strongly, John Carr.

.


There were multiple sketches that resembled (almost to a T) John Carr. However, for some reason in the Dennis Farina re-airing, producers left off (probably just by sloppiness) one of the other photos that resembled John Carr.

Also, whoever killed Stacy Moskowitz was def not Berkowitz, as described by Tommy Zaino who saw the shooting and the suspect sprint off. As he said, there is no way Berkowitz could have run in that fashion, and/or gain 90 pounds a week later when he was finally arrested.

What facts?

There is nothing but speculation about the Carr's involvement.

It can't simply be coincidence that 2-3 composites of one of the killers had almost uncanny similarities to how John Carr (and his hair) looked. Berkowitz and Carr looked nothing alike either.

The final murder also - if we take Tommy Zaino and his gf at their word - could in no way have been Berkowitz (as to the shooter, I mean). Berkowitz was not in that type of physical shape to run off in the manner that the shooter did.

This was kind of an unintentionally funny moment for me--Maury Terry taking his future wife to one of the shooting locations on their first date! There's being passionate about your research and then there's being practically married to it...

It can't simply be coincidence that 2-3 composites of one of the killers had almost uncanny similarities to how John Carr (and his hair) looked. Berkowitz and Carr looked nothing alike either.

The final murder also - if we take Tommy Zaino and his gf at their word - could in no way have been Berkowitz (as to the shooter, I mean). Berkowitz was not in that type of physical shape to run off in the manner that the shooter did.

https://thepeoplevsdavidberkowitz.com/

See the above link, newly accessed DA documents. Zaino changed his story, he named Berkowitz as the killer, there was no van at the moskowitz shooting. I believed it was a cult or at least Berkowitz had help. Not convinced of that anymore.

When stories change the 1st is often the more reliable. I'm unconvinced it was a lone man.

When stories change the 1st is often the more reliable. I'm unconvinced it was a lone man.

In this instance, Zaino said it was Berkowitz back in 1977, but changed his story by the time of the filming of the UM segment.

In this instance, Zaino said it was Berkowitz back in 1977, but changed his story by the time of the filming of the UM segment.

Yes, but the point is both of those are assertions made at the time. I don't care if something changes within a reasonable time frame, but decades after the fact changes are usually unreliable.

Yes, but the point is both of those are assertions made at the time. I don't care if something changes within a reasonable time frame, but decades after the fact changes are usually unreliable.

Zaino changed his story a decade later to say it definitely wasn't Berkowitz. He told the cops in 77 that it was Berkowitz.

Zaino changed his story a decade later to say it definitely wasn't Berkowitz. He told the cops in 77 that it was Berkowitz.

Exactly. In 1977 & the 1979 DA interview he says it’s berkowitz. Later, he changed his story. What motivated him to change his story years later?!? Also, reading these new documents, no one puts a VW can on site and Cacelia Davis never mentions Berkowitz driving away. Hard to believe cult involvement with this new information.

It is 2024 and despite rumors that the CIA admitted to the JFK killings we still for whatever reason haven't officially seen the sealed documents on it. Alright..............nothing to see here folks!

Okay, but to the thread topic, I believe it is Berkowitz who did it all. He says it himself. I have to admit, he is the most repentant killer I have ever seen interviewed. Dare I say it is hard not to like the guy. And he has no reason to be this way other than it is genuine. He will never see the light of day, he said he prays for the families of his victims every day and he is said to not even attend his parole hearings (which he would be rejected for anyway) because he knows he belongs in prison.

For years he has been an outspoken Christian and he ministers to other inmates. I know you can't take back the murders, but if there is a human being who at least made the best of the horrible things he did I have to say it is Berkowitz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdv78w6MN04