There's been some confusion over the years as to whether this was a pilot for a spin-off series or a part of Gleason's variety show. According to Michael Seth Starr's Art Carney biography, it was supposed to be a bit of both. I've attached the excerpts that are available online below.

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Thank you Bill. I guess this kills the theory that this show aired.

Plus, if it did air, it would have aired during the Color Honeymooners storyline in which the Kramdens and Nortons were still touring the country. The fan watching at home would have saw the pilot and may have said: "The Kramdens and Nortons must be home now." Only to tune in next week to realize that they are still touring the country and haven't come home yet.

I don't think this book is 100% accurate. According to several sources this aired on the January 17, 1970 epislde of The Jackie Gleason Show. Besides this sketch guests on the hour included George Burns, Morey Amsterdam, and Sandy Duncan. At one time Videowack had the first half of this show mentioning the Norton section but that was missing and replaced with a second half from another Gleason show.

Benno is correct. The corrected date should be 1/17. IMDB lists George Burns w/ guests Morey Amsterdam, and Sandy Duncan. They appear to be on the 1st 1/2 of the show. And IMDB also lists Ron Carey, Phil Leeds and Al Lewis, they guest starred in the "Norton" pilot, apparently the 2nd half of the show. Because the 1st half of the show exists, perhaps the 2nd 1/2 still does.

I guess I was wrong than about this show not existing. Oh well.

I don't think this book is 100% accurate. According to several sources this aired on the January 17, 1970 epislde of The Jackie Gleason Show. Besides this sketch guests on the hour included George Burns, Morey Amsterdam, and Sandy Duncan. At one time Videowack had the first half of this show mentioning the Norton section but that was missing and replaced with a second half from another Gleason show.
Is it possible that the sources you're referring to were mentioning what was supposed to air, but something else ended up being shown in its place for the reasons mentioned in the book? I recall reading somewhere that the footage was destroyed out of respect for Carney, but then again, the collector Frank was dealing with on iOffer last year claimed to have a copy with a timecode on the bottom.

If that "dealer" Frank dealt with is the same that I had experiences with, he was a fraud. He never came through on his side of the trade, and while he never told me that he had the Norton episode, we were to trade various other Gleason and TV shows and he never came through with his side of the trade. Then several weeks later shows that I had sent him showed up on iOffer from a guy in Florida. So instead of sending me what he owed, he sold copies of shows that I had sent him from my copies.

My information came from Television Variety Shows: Histories and Episode Guides to 57 Programs by David Inman. This has never steered me wrong in the information it presented, including the January 17, 1970 airdate.

A quick Google search pulled up this description from newspapers.com for the Edwardsville Intelligencer:

THI EDWARDSVILLI INTELLIGINCIR Saturday, January 17,1970 TV Previews Incredible Ed Norton' Steals Show Saturday's TV Previews The Jackie Gleason Show has perhaps the best comedy editon of the season, and its great success is not because of George Burns or Morey Amsterdam, but second banana Art Carney. Art's feature is "The Incredible World of Ed Norton'' and it's a hilarious view of a typical day m the life of the Kramden urony, including his work. Both Burns and Amsterdam do their familiar and funny monologues, with Burns especially succinct when he starts telling tales out of Hollywood cocktail parties Another good feature is young ventriloquest Aaron Williams. (http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/26410488/)

I do not have a subscription to the newspapers.com website so I could not pull up the scan of the paper, but the text of what was included on the page was there, and this is where I cut and pasted the info from.

From The Saratogian, January 17, 1970:

If that "dealer" Frank dealt with is the same that I had experiences with, he was a fraud. He never came through on his side of the trade, and while he never told me that he had the Norton episode, we were to trade various other Gleason and TV shows and he never came through with his side of the trade. Then several weeks later shows that I had sent him showed up on iOffer from a guy in Florida. So instead of sending me what he owed, he sold copies of shows that I had sent him from my copies.
I know you and Frank had bad experiences with the guy, but I also know of a couple people that did successful trades with him, so I'm not sure what his deal is. We did find out that he had some legal problems around the time he disappeared last year. He had all good feedback on iOffer up until then. The thing is, he wasn't asking Frank for anything all that rare, so I seriously doubt he would have closed up shop over that. Obviously he has some personal issues and he probably ended up screwing people out of what he promised because of that, but I don't see any reason for him to lie about having stuff. If the footage does exist and it is out there, it's a shame it had to land in his hands.

My information came from Television Variety Shows: Histories and Episode Guides to 57 Programs by David Inman. This has never steered me wrong in the information it presented, including the January 17, 1970 airdate.
I can't speak on what it says in David Inman's book, but the information that was published in the two newspapers was from the day it was supposed to air. That leaves open the possibility that CBS could have decided not to air it at the last minute. Why else would VIDEOWACK's copy have a portion from another show attached to the George Burns half?

3 articles...

I know you and Frank had bad experiences with the guy, but I also know of a couple people that did successful trades with him, so I'm not sure what his deal is. We did find out that he had some legal problems around the time he disappeared last year. He had all good feedback on iOffer up until then. The thing is, he wasn't asking Frank for anything all that rare, so I seriously doubt he would have closed up shop over that. Obviously he has some personal issues and he probably ended up screwing people out of what he promised because of that, but I don't see any reason for him to lie about having stuff. If the footage does exist and it is out there, it's a shame it had to land in his hands.


I can't speak on what it says in David Inman's book, but the information that was published in the two newspapers was from the day it was supposed to air. That leaves open the possibility that CBS could have decided not to air it at the last minute. Why else would VIDEOWACK's copy have a portion from another show attached to the George Burns half?

I asked on the Trading Post about this episode of the Jackie Gleason Show and how one trader had a copy of the first half of the episode and yet the second half was different. This was one cloggedmind's reply

The copy I have is a b&w kinescope, and it runs just shy of 46 minutes. The date provided on the dvdr menu claims it is from 12-11-69 which is not the case. The first half touting something "special" with Carney would the be 1-17-70, and the last half spliced in from the 1969 episode which features Frank Gorshin and Max Bygraves.

Now, why is that? Well, it is all speculation and I, for one, do not believe the "it was so awful Gleason cut it to protect Carney's reputation," and so on. What I do believe is that, having traded, bought and sold a few collector prints of various films, and having owned (and still do!) a few obscure homebrew telecine copies of third and fourth-hand films, it could be:

a) A Mistake. Simply, when cobbling together a full-length program to dupe for armed forces, personal archiving, or overseas sales, mis-matched elements were used. Hell, I got a couple of 16mm Stooges film prints that have The End titles spliced in from the wrong eras, and even some of those Screen Gems logo plastered hack jobs (a widescreen era Columbia Pictures logo, tacked on one!).

b) A rights issue. Quite often, for unspecified reasons (usually involving $$) authors may choose to not allow programs to be shown, sold, traded or otherwise. It happens, and it could have happened when JG's folks were making these film copies.

c) Lost elements. Broken or ruined footage may have been replaced. Or, with so few copies in circulation, someone may have taken a shine to that particular footage, hoping to retire upon its later "discovery" and subsequent sale to the right person. So they put in something else laying around to fill time. This kind of cut and paste leads to the next possibility:

d) Hoarding. This happens too often in the film collectors' circles. One gets hold of rare footage and is scared to let anyone near it for fear of devaluing the material. Best examples I know of are things like the Three Stooges Cartoon/live action combo films "Stooges Scrapbook" and "The Spain Mutiny". People have them but will not share, sell or allow viewing. 2 people have also claimed in the last 12 years to have superior 16mm copies of the Stooges' swansong "Kook's Tour" but allegedly could not agree on a ransom price.

I would guess it is a combination of A and D, with someone subbing in some footage and selling the print as is. I'd bet somewhere long ago, someone knew they had something rare and cannibalized the footage. The kinescope ends with Johnny Olsen reminding you to tune in to the Honeymooners next week, and it has the Bressler/Duddy song credit which hints at it maybe coming from another Honeymooners episode, which would be incorrect, as well, and flown in from separate elements

AND, the print just runs out as broken film. Poof. Proving (?) that the elements were kinda iffy anyway.

Frustrating, but there you have it.

The search continues!

I wanted to see this episode of the JGS knowing that I wouldn't be getting the Incredible sketch. I only wanted to see how the first half flowed into the second half. That way, I can hopefully tell if the IncredibleWorld aired.

Hey Frank, I sent ya a copy of the show that I have. It is in your pm!

In regards to Incredible World, I did speak to the guy who runs atvaudio.com. He has the audio of five of the short color Honeymooners sketches. I got the audio of them LOOOOOONG BEFORE Time Life released them and during a time when Jackie Gleason’s daughter said In 2014 that the chances of them getting released were slim and none. The guy who runs atvaudio,com told me that one time He had the audio of all seven color sketches and the Incredible World but the audio soundtrack to two of the color clutches and Incredible World got damaged due to a flood.

Hopefully, SOMEONE has this.

In regards to Incredible World, I did speak to the guy who runs atvaudio.com. He has the audio of five of the short color Honeymooners sketches. I got the audio of them LOOOOOONG BEFORE Time Life released them and during a time when Jackie Gleason’s daughter said In 2014 that the chances of them getting released were slim and none. The guy who runs atvaudio,com told me that one time He had the audio of all seven color sketches and the Incredible World but the audio soundtrack to two of the color clutches and Incredible World got damaged due to a flood.

Hopefully, SOMEONE has this.
That would at least confirm that "Incredible World" aired at some point. There's a better chance that it exists under those circumstances.

Oooops. Sorry. I typed clutches instead of SKETCHES. I’m not an idiot. I swear.

I don't think this book is 100% accurate. According to several sources this aired on the January 17, 1970 epislde of The Jackie Gleason Show. Besides this sketch guests on the hour included George Burns, Morey Amsterdam, and Sandy Duncan. At one time Videowack had the first half of this show mentioning the Norton section but that was missing and replaced with a second half from another Gleason show.
Actually, the kinescope film circulating around the web was a composite of three different Gleason shows. In place of the Norton sketch were two segments from Gleason's Nov. 16, 1968 show, with Frank Gorshin doing a set of impressions and British entertainer Max Bygraves singing a cover of "It Was A Very Good Year." The curtain close and ending credits were from the Nov. 1, 1969 "Color Honeymooners" episode "The Honeymoon Is Over."

That 1968 show was the only other known edition besides Oct. 14, 1967 where Gleason wore a Tattersall vest of a particular type. He had two others - one he wore on Nov. 25, 1967, and another he wore on the Nov. 2, 1968 and March 15, 1969 shows.

Actually, the kinescope film circulating around the web was a composite of three different Gleason shows. In place of the Norton sketch were two segments from Gleason's Nov. 16, 1968 show, with Frank Gorshin doing a set of impressions and British entertainer Max Bygraves singing a cover of "It Was A Very Good Year." The curtain close and ending credits were from the Nov. 1, 1969 "Color Honeymooners" episode "The Honeymoon Is Over."

That 1968 show was the only other known edition besides Oct. 14, 1967 where Gleason wore a Tattersall vest of a particular type. He had two others - one he wore on Nov. 25, 1967, and another he wore on the Nov. 2, 1968 and March 15, 1969 shows.

Thanks WB