For example (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.tv/vG85Sw8yjz0):
http://whatculture.com/tv/4-sci-fi-franchises-that-need-to-be-rebooted.php/2

Andromeda was a troubled show from the beginning. Conceived from a mishmash of notes from Gene Roddenberry and produced by a meddlesome production company at the tail end of the ’80s – ’00s syndication renaissance, it never had an uphill struggle to be competent, never mind good. However, it had former Star Trek: Deep Space 9 writer Robert Hewitt Wolfe as a head writer, who managed to get strong corps of writers on the show and create a fairly in-depth universe bible.

Unfortunately, star and co-producer Kevin Sorbo managed to get (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WagTheDirector) Wolfe off the show partway through the second season, which led to an insane decline in quality (http://www.bonethefish.com/viewtopics.php?723). Eventually the fifth season of the show, produced primarily to hit the ideal 100 episodes for syndication, had to eschew the title ship for a good chunk of episodes to save money. After a lackluster finale, the show passed into the annals of mediocre and forgotten scifi shows from that era.

The main problem with Andromeda was that kicking Wolfe off the show also took the show’s premise with it – Andromeda’s quest to rebuild the government that collapsed while the ship and her captain were trapped near the event horizon of a black hole. With Sorbo at the helm, Andromeda wound up being the equivalent of Star Trek V – a love letter to Sorbo’s character Dylan Hunt (who was pretty much a low rent Kirk clone in those final seasons) – and a generic Trek clone to anyone who discovered it after Wolfe’s final episodes aired.

This is a closer generalization of this point:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13132743910A10019700&page=0

"I'm Also The Producer": Lead actor of your show is getting a lot of acclaim. In order to keep him on board and not jump ship for a movie career or something, more and more creative control (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WriterOnBoard) is given to the actor at each contract negotiation. Usually they become a producer of some kind and often also writer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrittenByCastMember). Suddenly the focus of your show goes from an ensemble to focus almost entirely on the lead character. Said character suddenly becomes a paragon of virtue, practically a saint, and the other characters are reduced (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDerailment) to being weak-willed or strawmen for the lead to triumph over. Often times an exodus of crew and supporting cast that wouldn't get with the program occurs. Examples: M*A*S*H (http://www.bonethefish.com/viewtopics.php?103)=Alan Alda, Little House on the Prairie (http://www.bonethefish.com/viewtopics.php?78)=Michael Landon, Andromeda=Kevin Sorbo

Two words; ARSENIO

gohst whisperer when jennifer love hewitt started bringing in her boyfriends of the month to play roles on the show and insisted on making stupid changes in the storyline it went from a great show to an unwatchable piece of garbage

ELLEN-when Ellen DeGeneres "came out of the closet" her character Ellen Morgan also did and suddenly a very funny sitcom switched gears and every episode focused on the fact that she's gay. They made it seem like it's her obsession or something.

MASH-someone made a BIIIG mistake by letting Alan Alda take over a lot of the writing & direction and turning a lot of the later episodes into "the Alan Alda show"

*Growing Pains when Kirk Cameron became a born again Christian and started demanding changes to the scripts/storylines (e.g. getting his on-screen girlfriend played by Julie McCullough fired because she posed for Playboy)/his character (who was previously established as being mischievous and irresponsible) that fit closer to his strict moral code.

*Last Man Standing when Tim Allen decided that he wanted to turn his show from being Home Improvement if Tim Taylor had all daughters and worked in an outdoorsman shop into a modern day All in the Family w/ his character as a "lovable" bigot.

*Moesha when Brandy and her mother got Vida Spears removed as the showrunner during Season 5. It was during this time that Ray-J (Brandy's brother and ultimately, "illegitimate half-brother" in the show's "jump the shark" moment") became a regular fixture (Dorian was pretty much the "Cousin Oliver" of the show) and Moesha morphed into a melodramatic soap opera w/ some comedic elements.

*Three's Company when Suzanne Somers started making those ridiculous demands (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=239604) (since she and her husband from my understanding felt that she was the main reason why the show was such a hit), which ultimately got her run out of the show (and "blackballed" from TV until She's the Sheriff).

*Any one of Cybill Shephard's TV shows based on the stories (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0111932/board/flat/137541634?p=1) that I've heard about her allegedly being a huge female dog to work with.

Roseanne. I much prefer the earlier seasons before she got more and more creative control. The last few seasons save for a handful of episodes became a giant train wreck.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroubledProduction/LiveActionTV

Sliders (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/Sliders) exemplifies the former Sci-Fi Channel's penchant for production problems, along with hubris and arrogance on the cast's part, despite it being the channel's top-rated program at the time. Simply put, everyone on the cast or crew got screwed over at one time or another:
The first two seasons were fraught with behind-the-scenes battles between the Fox network and the production team. Fox wanted more episodes that had a greater emphasis on action and less continuity (so they could show them in any order they wanted), even putting the show on hiatus after the ninth episode of season 1. The production crew responded by forcing a cliffhanger at the end of said episode, to Fox's dismay. Later on, Fox canceled the series at the end of season 2, and it was only saved by a massive fan campaign.

Fox brass continually hounded co-creator Tracy Tormé throughout his tenure on the show. They tried to derail his plan to resolve the first-season cliffhanger, his input in season three was ignored by the production team when the series moved primary filming to Los Angeles, and he eventually left the show at the end of the third season.

John Rhys-Davies' controversial death in "Exodus" (via having his brains sucked out, being shot and then left to die on an exploding planet) was caused by behind-the-scenes issues. Rhys-Davies allegedly insulted then-producer David Peckinpah (while drunk) at a party hosted by Fox brass when the series first began. Later on, when Peckinpah was promoted and gained control of the series, he used this leverage to convince the network to fire the actor (via the release of his episode contract), and gave him the fate he endured in the episode.

Jerry O'Connell was originally planned to star in several episodes of the fifth season, but held up production for months while he tried to negotiate for an Executive Producer credit. While the network had already given him more perks than any of the other cast members, O'Connell wouldn't budge, and after hearing that his brother Charlie wouldn't be able to appear in all 18 episodes (as Charlie's character, Colin, was contingent on Jerry's character, Quinn), the brothers walked away from the table. Things got worse when the production team attempted to figure out a way to explain Quinn and Colin's absence from the show - Jerry wouldn't give up the use of his image or voice from the prior seasons, meaning that the producers had to make do with a pair of stunt doubles and a voice that is clearly not O'Connell's.

Kari Wuhrer's presence on the show in the third season caused massive friction between herself and Sabrina Lloyd. During a script-reading, Wuhrer made snide comments about Lloyd's engagmeent to one of the crew members, which caused Lloyd to break down and cry in her trailer, thus holding up production for hours. David Peckinpah (who first approached Wuhrer to star on the show) used this incident to spread lies about Sabrina costing the network money, and eventually told her point-blank that he would support Wuhrer and not her (prompting her to leave the series). Even worse, Peckinpah later twisted the knife by condemning Lloyd's character, Wade, to being raped in a Kromagg breeding camp - the only reason it didn't come off looking even worse is because the production staff led a Writer Revolt to change the plot to something more meaningful (via the introduction of the Humaggs).

Peckinpah himself was demoted to a consultant by the network out of spite because he had taken on a concurrent job as executive producer with another Universal Studios production called Turks. However, he often visited the Sliders set and ended up influencing the direction of the fifth season just as much as the previous ones.

While renewal rumors were still up in the air at the end of season five, Sci-Fi discovered that they didn't have the cash necessary to pay the actors' contracts for another season, and when fans emailed the company asking for information, Sci-Fi representatives emailed back that the show was cancelled because the actors wouldn't sign back on, conveniently ignoring the monetary issue.

Growing Pains: Kurt Cameron kinda ruined the show for everyone else when he decided his religion should rule what goes on in the show.

Roseanne: The last 2 seasons saw the decline out of the top 5 shows of the year. I believe this was because Roseanne got even more control of the show.

Ellen: I love the show even the last season. Personally after watching all the other season I was convinced that her character was straight and just had bad luck with men. I wish her character would have stayed straight just because it really changed what the character was.

*Growing Pains when Kirk Cameron became a born again Christian and started demanding changes to the scripts/storylines (e.g. getting his on-screen girlfriend played by Julie McCullough fired because she posed for Playboy)/his character (who was previously established as being mischievous and irresponsible) that fit closer to his strict moral code.

Growing Pains: Kurt Cameron kinda ruined the show for everyone else when he decided his religion should rule what goes on in the show.

Uh, no.

Uh, no.

And you apparently disagree w/ this notion regarding Kirk Cameron because...?

And you apparently disagree w/ this notion regarding Kirk Cameron because...?There's nothing wrong with Kirk Cameron. It's refreshing to see someone in Hollywood with morals...
And Growing Pains is a great show from start to finish.

There's nothing wrong with Kirk Cameron. It's refreshing to see someone in Hollywood with morals...
And Growing Pains is a great show from start to finish.

I think the problem w/ Kirk Cameron is that he really and heavily (perhaps too heavily) wore his morals on his sleeve. In return, he started to wreck havoc on the production of Growing Pains (at the expense of his colleagues like Julie McCullough for example) over even the most minute details if he found it to be remotely against his morals. He really started to confuse the difference between Kirk Cameron and Mike Seaver. Let's put it this way, just because for example, Anthony Hopkins played Hannibal Lecter, doesn't necessarily mean that his really a serial killer (he was acting).

I think the problem w/ Kirk Cameron is that he really and heavily (perhaps too heavily) wore his morals on his sleeve. In return, he started to wreck havoc on the production of Growing Pains (at the expense of his colleagues like Julie McCullough for example) over even the most minute details if he found it to be remotely against his morals. He really started to confuse the difference between Kirk Cameron and Mike Seaver. Let's put it this way, just because for example, Anthony Hopkins played Hannibal Lecter, doesn't necessarily mean that his really a serial killer (he was acting).
Eventually, Kirk Cameron wasn't acting anymore since he abandoned playing the role of MIKE SEAVER. Suddenly, everything had to fit into KIRK CAMERON'S so called morals. He was unprofessional.

And you apparently disagree w/ this notion regarding Kirk Cameron because...?

Are you targeting Kirk Cameron because of his beliefs? I think he had every right to influence his coworkers and shows with them. Hollywood needs more people like him.

Are you targeting Kirk Cameron because of his beliefs? I think he had every right to influence his coworkers and shows with them. Hollywood needs more people like him.

I'll try to be as careful w/ this as possible. I'm not targeting Kirk Cameron for simply being a born again Christian. What, I'm trying to say is that Kirk went way, way too far in regards to subjecting his personal point of view or morals during the production of Growing Pains (to the point where it came off as sabatoge). The way Kirk went about it made him extremely militant, narrow-minded and self-aggrandizing.

As I said before, Kirk starting confusing his real life w/ the character that he was playing on TV. Kirk forgot that he was an entertainer first and an evangelist or moral guardian in his personal life.

Cameron had a right to try to influence anything that he was required to play that was against his morals. However, that series should have given him few problems. At the end of the day he was an actor under contract playing a character and as long as his character was not made into a rapist or bigot or someone who used profanity I don't see his problem, and I am a Christian myself.
I don't think getting a co-worker put out of a job because of a personal decision they made was very Christian of him either. I respect the guy for taking a stand and all but he was young and probably threw his weight around too much.

I think "Moonlighting" has to be a poster child for this topic. They already had Cybil then when Bruce gained popularity the whole show was screwed due to egos and we ended up with fewer episodes, delays, and shows featuring the supporting cast.

Cybil Shepard is another person whose backstage antics caused two shows to decline. Moonlighting and even her own show Cybill as well, I think too.

And as with Roseanne and Cybil on their shows, Brett Butler too also caused changes with the producers and writers on her show and Brett Butler's irratic behavior backstage also caused actors to come and go heavily as well.

Cybil Shepard is another person whose backstage antics caused two shows to decline. Moonlighting and even her own show Cybill as well, I think too.

I can still handle Bruce Willis somewhat but I think he was really oddly placed in Moonlighting. He didn't fit very well, he's always been an action/thriller or indie film type of guy.

Cybil on the other hand... I can't with the HBIC crap she puts out there. She needs to sit down.

Cybil Shepard is another person whose backstage antics caused two shows to decline. Moonlighting and even her own show Cybill as well, I think too.

And as with Roseanne and Cybil on their shows, Brett Butler too also caused changes with the producers and writers on her show and Brett Butler's irratic behavior backstage also caused actors to come and go heavily as well.

I can't believe I forgot about Grace Under Fire (http://www.bonethefish.com/viewtopics.php?1847). What's w/ Chuck Lorre and the stars of his shows causing trouble (most recently w/ Charlie Sheen and 2 & 1/2 Men):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Under_Fire#Controversy_and_cancellation

After the first season, the creative aspect of the show experienced a revolving door of producers and writers. These changes were a result of creative clashes between the production team and Butler. Butler constantly fought for (and eventually won) more creative control for her character and show. These arguments led to the removal of the show's Creator/Executive Producer, Chuck Lorre, from production work, although he stayed with the show as a "comedy consultant." As with fellow Carsey-Werner shows Roseanne and Cybill, the back-stage conflicts of Grace Under Fire were well publicized.[citation needed]

As the third season concluded in the spring of 1996, Jon Paul Steuer left the series. Sources have speculated that Steuer's mother pulled him out of the show after an incident with Butler, who reportedly flashed her breasts at the 12-year-old actor.[5] At the start of Season 4, Sam Horrigan became the third actor to play Quentin Kelly, and with him in the role, the character's age advanced to 16.

In the fourth and fifth seasons of the show, Butler was fighting a painkiller addiction, for which she eventually sought medical help. Cast member Julie White left the show after Season 4, also citing Butler's behavior as the reason.[6] All the while, Grace Under Fire, which had been a Top 20 series for its first three seasons, began to take a significant drop in the ratings during season four, from 13th place to 45th.

Butler's first round of treatment and rehab delayed the start of the 1997–98 season until November. After Grace Under Fire resumed production on season five, a newly-clean Butler struggled to stay that way; the morale on the set was little better than in the previous season, due to the star's erratic behavior. Around the holidays, Butler relapsed again, and although the producers were as committed as ever to continuing the show, ABC was becoming concerned about Butler's overall health, and was less patient with her accelerated amount of missed tapings. Furthermore, the show's ratings continued to fall dramatically, which may have well been attributed to Butler's reputation in the press, the longer-than-usual hiatus the series took between seasons four and five, and the fact that the character of Grace Kelly no longer went through the kinds of struggles that had made the show successful earlier on. The addition of Julia Duffy several episodes into the fifth season was a last-ditch attempt to improve the ratings, but with Butler in her current state, the network was not inspired to continue on. Rather abruptly, with the February 17, 1998 telecast, ABC canceled the series.[7][8] The three-month long final season averaged at #68 in the 1997-98 Nielsen rankings.

I can still handle Bruce Willis somewhat but I think he was really oddly placed in Moonlighting. He didn't fit very well, he's always been an action/thriller or indie film type of guy.

I don't necessarily disagree, but Willis was extremely popular in those years. My boss had his photo on her desk! And the show did click, for what it's worth -- chemistry can be hard to predict and when it's there, it can defy analysis.

I'm quite sure that this past thread could tie in nicely w/ this particular topic:
Actors/Actresses That Left A Show Due To Wanting More Money (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=239604)

I think the problem w/ Kirk Cameron is that he really and heavily (perhaps too heavily) wore his morals on his sleeve. In return, he started to wreck havoc on the production of Growing Pains (at the expense of his colleagues like Julie McCullough for example) over even the most minute details if he found it to be remotely against his morals. He really started to confuse the difference between Kirk Cameron and Mike Seaver. Let's put it this way, just because for example, Anthony Hopkins played Hannibal Lecter, doesn't necessarily mean that his really a serial killer (he was acting).

The producers shouldn't have caved. They should have reminded him he signed a contract to play the character as written and that he is the employee.

Other suggestions when I took this discussion elsewhere (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/entertainment-board/309719-tv-shows-declined-quality-due-part-stars-ego-more-direct-influence.html#.Uls9G9vpdMI):
*Psych. After James Roday became a producer, the show's quality really dropped. All of Lassiter's previous character development was forgotten and he went back to the one-dimensional character he was in the first season. The show's focus turned to the relationship between Roday's character and Juliette, played by Maggie Lawson, Roday's real life girlfriend. Each episode was dedicated to driving home the fact that the characters had some sort of once-in-a-lifetime love. Even the fake psychic stuff was ignored for a few episodes.

*According to some fans, Charmed started going south when actresses Holly Marie Combs and Alyssa Milano became producers. After their promotion, the 2 began systematically rejecting story ideas that they personally didn't like (i.e., the ones which didn't specifically revolve around their characters or portray them in the ways that they wanted) and elevating their characters of Piper and Phoebe to near Mary Sue proportions.

*Growing Pains when Kirk Cameron became a born again Christian and started demanding changes to the scripts/storylines (e.g. getting his on-screen girlfriend played by Julie McCullough fired because she posed for Playboy)/his character (who was previously established as being mischievous and irresponsible) that fit closer to his strict moral code.





Yup, sounds about right.

Two words; ARSENIO


Where's the second word? LOL.

Cameron had a right to try to influence anything that he was required to play that was against his morals. However, that series should have given him few problems. At the end of the day he was an actor under contract playing a character and as long as his character was not made into a rapist or bigot or someone who used profanity I don't see his problem, and I am a Christian myself.
I don't think getting a co-worker put out of a job because of a personal decision they made was very Christian of him either. I respect the guy for taking a stand and all but he was young and probably threw his weight around too much.

Well said.


Originally Posted by catsrule
There's nothing wrong with Kirk Cameron. It's refreshing to see someone in Hollywood with morals...
And Growing Pains is a great show from start to finish.

Nice! Totally agree.:) :cool:

Unfortunately, "Growing Pains" seems to continually be remembered for this and there's no denying that Kirk Cameron used his influence to affect the direction of the show. And yes, he was an employee but there is a bit of a difference when you work as an actor. If he was being called to do scenes that he didn't feel right in portraying as a follower of Christ, then he has every right to request a change in the script. (And from what I've read, this was the case at least some times.) And when it's the main star of the show- the producers and writers do wind up kowtowing some to their star- certainly that's happened numerous times with other shows and other stars and for other reasons. (Which this whole thread is an example of.) (Though to be fair, other actors and actresses have certainly made requests and/or demands in their contracts in regards to their religious beliefs.) I'm not saying that Kirk Cameron went about this in the right manner on "Growing Pains" necessarily. Perhaps in some things he did use his influence to make sure the show didn't portray things that are not Godly and that would give people a negative example. And that's commendable. But he probably also did become a bit of a zealot on other things and that's where we get into the problems when it becomes too legalistic. It is important to obey The Law God sets down in The Bible of course- but we must also remember Romans 13:8 "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law." As Jesus said, the most important command is to love The Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And the second is like it- love your neighbor as yourself. So yes, loving God means obeying His law. And that also means doing it in love- and whenever confronting others about God and where we stand in following His Law- we must also do that in love.
Regarding the situation with Julie McCullough- yeah, that wasn't good at all how that went down. However, as Kirk Cameron has said himself of this time, he was a new Christian and he did what a lot of new Christians wind up falling into sometimes- becoming a legalistic Christian and going on a witchhunt. [Which of course, befits more the Pharisees and their practices that Jesus spoke against in Matthew 23 and not at all the follower of Christ, whom Jesus said would be known by their love for one another- John 13:34-35.]
And he has since apologized and been forgiven by his fellow cast members. I don't know if things were ever resolved between him and Julie, but hopefully so. As to any change in the quality of episodes for "Growing Pains", I will say this of the latter seasons. I grew up watching this show as a kid in the '80s and loved it then and still love it now. And I enjoy the entire series from start to finish. I know Mike Seaver is portrayed as the slacker and schemer of the show, but I don't decry the show for actually having Mike grow up some and learn some responsibility. It's not like the entire show changed and Mike was now strait-laced and never got in trouble the rest of the series. But he did do a better job of recognizing temptation and trying to do better and set a good example for Luke and that's commendable.
But don't worry- Mike Seaver is still Mike Seaver- and his mischievous side is still there. One of my favorite 7th. season episodes makes that clear-
"Don't Go Changin' "- where Mike is concerned that Eddie is a bad influence on Luke. I think this episode does a great job of showing Mike talking to Eddie about this without being a jerk about it and where both reaffirm their friendship at the end of the episode and show that while they both may have gained some maturity, they're still willing to do some crazy things, like playing basketball in their boxer shorts outside in the cold winter until someone gives and wants to go inside.:)
And "The Call of the Wild" episode shows Mike is still a schemer at times. Also see both of the "Growing Pains" movies for more of that.:) :cool:

I can't believe I forgot about Grace Under Fire (http://www.bonethefish.com/viewtopics.php?1847). What's w/ Chuck Lorre and the stars of his shows causing trouble (most recently w/ Charlie Sheen and 2 & 1/2 Men):

Perhaps b/c he gives his stars too much power and money at that.

Well, at least he hasn't had any problems with "The Big Bang Theory" thus far- at least, none that I know about. (And this is by far my favorite of his shows, as I definitely don't really care for "2 and a half Men", though "Grace Under Fire" was okay when it aired- I never got real big into it though.) And sadly, even "The Big Bang Theory" is not really the best as it gets risque at times too.

There's nothing wrong with Kirk Cameron. It's refreshing to see someone in Hollywood with morals...
And Growing Pains is a great show from start to finish.

I agree. He has a right to his religious beliefs (FREEDOM of Religion) and morals. I wish more people had his morals and guts in Hollywood.

*Not a scripted show, but just about any show that Keith Olbermann has worked on (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TroubledProduction/LiveActionTV).

*Martin, if you believe the allegations (http://www.cracked.com/article/135_6-beloved-tv-shows-that-traumatized-cast-members-life_p2/) about Martin Lawrence becoming erratic and abusive towards the end of its run.

*I don't know if this counts, since it didn't necessarily effect the production of the show (to the best of my knowledge), but Tina Louise (Ginger), whole attitude (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001481/board/flat/84700084?p=1) regarding Gilligan's Island. What's funny is that Sherwood Schwartz, the producer of Gilligan's Island also had to deal w/ a male diva in the form of Robert Reed on The Brady Bunch.

Two words; ARSENIO

The decline in Arsenio Hall's original talk show involved factors that were pretty much well beyond his control. Right around 1993, David Letterman was launching his show on CBS and Chevy Chase was launching his own ill-fated talk show on Fox. These shows took away a lot of Arsenio's key affiliates. To make matters worse, when Fox mercifully cancelled The Chevy Chase Show, the didn't give their affiliates back to Arsenio, who was toiling away in a midnight (if not later) timeslot.

Also, Jon Stewart had launched his talk show on MTV, which was from what I've read, the second highest rated program on MTV behind Beavis & Butt-head. Stewart pretty much competed with the same sort of audience/target demographic that would've normally watched Arsenio's show.

The final nail in the coffin so to speak, was when against the advice of Paramount (the producers of the old Arsenio Hall Show) and sponsors, Arsenio invited Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan for what turned out to be virtually the whole hour.

Some would argue that the final year and a half of "The Rosie O'Donnell" show were heavily influenced by Rosie having a more direct influence on the content and with Rosie's public persona quickly changing.

Some would argue that the final year and a half of "The Rosie O'Donnell" show were heavily influenced by Rosie having a more direct influence on the content and with Rosie's public persona quickly changing.
"The Rosie O'Donnell Show" went downhill QUICK after 9/11. This event changed her in more ways than one.

Some would argue that the final year and a half of "The Rosie O'Donnell" show were heavily influenced by Rosie having a more direct influence on the content and with Rosie's public persona quickly changing.

Speaking of which:
http://splitsider.com/2013/03/the-unfair-reputation-of-rosie-odonnell/

I almost hate to say this, but the whole fiasco surrounding Valerie Harper's departure from Valerie (AKA The Hogan Family):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hogan_Family#Season_2:_Harper_leaves

Then again, perhaps Valerie Harper seemed too good to be associating herself w/ the cheesy, cliched television Miller-Boyett produced back in the day anyway.

"cheesy and cliched"? Well, perhaps- but I still love it anyway. Miller-Boyett has done a number of TV shows that I love- I just think of it more like "totally awesome".:) :cool:

Sabrina, the Teenage Witch (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=107) - I don't know how much creative influence Melissa Joan Hart had or received on the show, but if anything, her mother Paula, who was also an executive producer, seemed like one of the worse type of stage mothers. It's very peculiar about why Sabrina's friends never really stuck around over a long period of time (so they wouldn't potentially overshadow MJH). I also don't think it's much of a coincidence that Sabrina's longest-serving friend was played by Soleil Moon Frye, who was (and still is) her real-life best friend.

There's nothing wrong with Kirk Cameron. It's refreshing to see someone in Hollywood with morals...
And Growing Pains is a great show from start to finish.

Another thing that I should add regarding Kirk Cameron, he technically wasn't the "star" of Growing Pains, it was Alan Thicke followed by Joanna Kerns. Yes, Kirk was the teen heartthrob was pretty much, the main attraction so to speak, but he wasn't officially "the star".

Also, unless you have full creative control, whatever is "offensive" is more or less, subjective. What I mean is, just because you personally think it's offensive doesn't necessarily mean that everybody else should think that way. I guess another way of looking at this is that doing an extremely "clean" show is if you ask me, very impossible to do. Because again, everything when you get right down to it, is subjective.

For example (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.tv/vG85Sw8yjz0):


This is a closer generalization of this point:

http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3139748-oh-the-humanity-when-promising-shows-crash-and-burn/page-1

http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3139748-oh-the-humanity-when-promising-shows-crash-and-burn/page-5#entry11191156

Someone mentioned Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda over a year ago in this thread, and that for me is still a sort of personal flashpoint of Suit interference leading to show-crashing. It went from a moderately promising arc-level sci-fi show to what was largely pegged "Kirkules," and then amazingly back to arc-level stuff, over a period of about three years after the creator/original showrunner was axed.

I suppose, thinking about it, the same basic thing happened with War of the Worlds years earlier. With an, incredibly, dumber result.

http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3139748-oh-the-humanity-when-promising-shows-crash-and-burn/page-6#entry14061570

Andromeda. I have yet to see a SF series with such a rich universe set up for great stories. Even with the low budget for alien costumes it was working then it descended to Hercules standing in a cave waving his stick in the general direction of Red Shirts who died on command.

http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3139748-oh-the-humanity-when-promising-shows-crash-and-burn/page-6#entry14064469

It would have remained at least acceptable had they, when deciding to make Dylan Hunt into a fracking superhero, remembered that part of his backstory was that he grew up on a "heavy planet", with a gravitational pull substantially higher than that of Earth, which is why he was supposed to be strong enough to take a Nietzchean in hand-to-hand combat in the first place. Between all the superhero crap they started lading him down with, the slow refusal to focus on the other characters any more, and the deus ex machina flavor of some of the introduced tech (really, Dylan? You've been fighting overwhelmed for years, and it's only now that you remember your ship has a full complement of FTL-capable fighter spacecraft??), it just went down the tubes. Is it coincidental that it started going downhill fast after Kevin Sorbo had himself made executive producer?

Married With Children once Amanda Bearse got behind the camera the whole show started to go south all the characters started to become extremely dumb especially Al who went from a somewhat sympathetic underdog to being a virtual cartoon character not to mention the pro feminist stuff she added.

Family Guy when (roughly around Season 7 I believe) Seth MacFarlane decided to use Brian (who speaks with Seth's natural voice) as an avatar/mouthpiece to spout this left-wing views. It perhaps isn't as different as Tim Allen using his character on Last Man Standing (beginning in Season 2) to spout his real life Republican views or Ed Asner using Lou Grant (on the "serious" dramatic spin-off of The Mary Tyler Moore Show) to spout his own left-wing views.

Sabrina, the Teenage Witch (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=107) - I don't know how much creative influence Melissa Joan Hart had or received on the show, but if anything, her mother Paula, who was also an executive producer, seemed like one of the worse type of stage mothers. It's very peculiar about why Sabrina's friends never really stuck around over a long period of time (so they wouldn't potentially overshadow MJH). I also don't think it's much of a coincidence that Sabrina's longest-serving friend was played by Soleil Moon Frye, who was (and still is) her real-life best friend.


I gotta give them a pass on this one, and here is why. IMHO, what happened is that after completing the first season, they probably realized some of the ways they could make the show stronger, so they cut loose the Jenny character who was the weakest character on the show. I think with Lindsay Sloane, she was a very popular actress at the time in many teen movies and shows, and so I assume her availability may have been an issue. I also think it's likely that her management encouraged her not to stay on a kid's show, which Sabrina essentially was, for too long out of fear of her being typecast. I think it's also worth noting that by far, Soliel Moon Frye was a huge established TV star by the time she booked Sabrina, so it's no wonder she was able to stay on the show longer than any of Sabrina's other friends. But btw, Morgan played by Elissa Donovan also appeared the same number of seasons as Roxy played by Soliel.

I gotta give them a pass on this one, and here is why. IMHO, what happened is that after completing the first season, they probably realized some of the ways they could make the show stronger, so they cut loose the Jenny character who was the weakest character on the show. I think with Lindsay Sloane, she was a very popular actress at the time in many teen movies and shows, and so I assume her availability may have been an issue. I also think it's likely that her management encouraged her not to stay on a kid's show, which Sabrina essentially was, for too long out of fear of her being typecast. I think it's also worth noting that by far, Soliel Moon Frye was a huge established TV star by the time she booked Sabrina, so it's no wonder she was able to stay on the show longer than any of Sabrina's other friends. But btw, Morgan played by Elissa Donovan also appeared the same number of seasons as Roxy played by Soliel.

I wonder if Melissa Joan Hart did that Maxim spread back in 1999 (she later claimed that she was high on X when she did those photos) show that she still wouldn't be seen as a "kids TV show" (not just Sabrina on ABC's TGIF but also Clarissa Explains it All on Nickelodeon) actress.

I wonder if Melissa Joan Hart did that Maxim spread back in 1999 (she later claimed that she was high on X when she did those photos) show that she still wouldn't be seen as a "kids TV show" (not just Sabrina on ABC's TGIF but also Clarissa Explains it All on Nickelodeon) actress.


I think that probably played a role in it. she wanted a more mature, adult image instead of being typecast as the goody-too shoes kid.

I think that probably played a role in it. she wanted a more mature, adult image instead of being typecast as the goody-too shoes kid.

Jessica Biel pretty much did the same thing when she claimed that her association w/ 7th Heaven hampered her chances at getting better acting roles.

After watching TV One's Unsung episode about What's Happening!!, I can't believe that I over looked this. Between Fred Berry and Ernest Thomas substance abuse issues and walk outs (although I pin the blame more on Berry) over money and Mabel King leaving (after being tired of what she felt was a one-dimensional character) after the second season, it's really no surprise that the show didn't make it past the third season. The sad thing regarding Fred Berry, is that his ego (Berry demanded $1 million on several occasions) got the best of him around the time that What's Happening Now!! was being made (and to the surprise of no one save for maybe Berry himself), he was gone after just the first season.

I wonder if Melissa Joan Hart did that Maxim spread back in 1999 (she later claimed that she was high on X when she did those photos) show that she still wouldn't be seen as a "kids TV show" (not just Sabrina on ABC's TGIF but also Clarissa Explains it All on Nickelodeon) actress.

Keep in mind that when she started on Sabrina she was like 18 and when it ended she was well into her 20's, so I imagine at a certain point she likely wanted to break free of the image of Sabrina.

I would say that Grace Under Fire fits this topic. Brett's drinking really took a toll on the cast and the writing as it went on.


Julie White quit because of Brett's drinking, one of the actors playing Quinten was taken off the show by his parents.... and the production was constantly being shut-down.

I love me some Nell Carter, but I think Gimme a Break was better BEFORE she had too much creative control after Season 2.

I love me some Nell Carter, but I think Gimme a Break was better BEFORE she had too much creative control after Season 2.for the most part i agree but i do think that adding telma hopkins as addy was a good move in season 3

I like Gimmie A Break season three and beyond. I thought that it was a good show. I loved it as a kid when it aired during the 80's. My issue was with Nell becoming to violent and she could be too much of a "B" to Addy at times. I loved how her mother would belittle her. That was kind of funny. LOL.

Keep in mind that when she started on Sabrina she was like 18 and when it ended she was well into her 20's, so I imagine at a certain point she likely wanted to break free of the image of Sabrina.


Actually, she was already 20 when "Sabrina" started. She was already up in the game. So, she posed for some men's magazine, huh? Interesting.

I think Charles - Will Gardner on The Good wife, his ego and decision to leave the show will hurt this show in the long run

I wonder how much clout Gary Coleman had towards the end of Diff'rent Strokes? He apparently (at least that's what Shavar Ross AKA Dudley insinuated) got Dixie Carter (Maggie #1) fired after the last season on NBC (Season 7).

I think Charles - Will Gardner on The Good wife, his ego and decision to leave the show will hurt this show in the long run

I do not agree with this and here is why:

#1) The show has always been centered around Juliana Margulies's character of Alicia Florrick, and how she relates to the world. I think so long as she is present and written well that the show will thrive.

#2) Will as interesting as he was, was not the most pivotal character, or even the most interesting character; and his death has provided a lot of natural momentum for all the other characters. I think it has actually given the show a lot of fresh starting points and a natural way to change some characters archs. Diane is a character that had little left to do until Will died and now has been given an entirely new purpose on the series.

There's nothing wrong with Kirk Cameron. It's refreshing to see someone in Hollywood with morals...
And Growing Pains is a great show from start to finish.

:clap

The problem with Kirk Cameron, and most super-religious, ultra-conservative people is that they try and force their morals onto everyone and everywhere and when they are told to stop and let things be, they get even more obnoxious. He got paid to act a character on Growing Pains, not to shove his personal beliefs onto his cast and crew. If he wasn't happy with the direction of his character, he should have left, instead of getting a co-star fired and making life miserable for everyone else on the set.

As a strong Christian, I do agree with the comments about him and his actions on the show. He was paid to do a job and should not force his beliefs on others. I'm a Christian and I have had new gung ho Christians tell me how to do things and overzealous veterans do the same thing. I think Kirk learned some stuff in due time, though so I give him propers for that.

I wonder how much clout Gary Coleman had towards the end of Diff'rent Strokes? He apparently (at least that's what Shavar Ross AKA Dudley insinuated) got Dixie Carter (Maggie #1) fired after the last season on NBC (Season 7).
Yep. That's what he told me back in 2001.

Speaking of Diff'rent Strokes, Todd Bridges claimed that Fish was canceled, despite being a top 20 show, because Abe Vigoda demanded too much money:
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Uh, no.

I have no problem with his morals and religion. The fact is you have no right to change what the show is about because of your beliefs. If he was unsatisfied with what the show had become he should have left and created a new show based on what he actually wanted out of it. One of the reasons the show fell to 75th the last season is because of his controlling ways.

I have no problem with his morals and religion. The fact is you have no right to change what the show is about because of your beliefs. If he was unsatisfied with what the show had become he should have left and created a new show based on what he actually wanted out of it. One of the reasons the show fell to 75th the last season is because of his controlling ways.
That had nothing to do with it. It was moved to the Saturday dead zone during the last season and that's why ratings fell that far. It was still a top 20 show for a couple years after Kirk found religion.

http://manicexpression.webs.com/apps/blog/show/40908214-a-look-at-sitcom-characters-ruined-by-their-own-shows

Elaine & George (Seinfeld)

This is the one which really baffles me. I just don't get it! Elaine starts out as a sweet person. Oh OK, she has her problems. She can be short tempered and for some reason spends all her time hanging out with an ex boyfriend and his loser best friend. But for the most part she was likable. Then around Season 6 the character was changed. Suddenly she became much meaner, even angrier. She clearly resented her life and had obviously resigned herself to the fact that was stuck with these guys. I blame this one on Julia Louis Dreyfuss herself. She really had no respect for the choices her character made, and I think that came out in the way she played her as the series went on. But as bad a that was, it doesn't compare to George. Couldn't Jason Alexander see the way his character had regressed from a basic loser to a screaming rage filled lunatic? I mean, what the heck happened?? To be fair I did hear Jason Alexander say he worried that when Larry David left George would be a totally different character. Guess he was right.

That is one of the many reasons I never want to see that show again.

I like Gimmie A Break season three and beyond. I thought that it was a good show. I loved it as a kid when it aired during the 80's. My issue was with Nell becoming to violent and she could be too much of a "B" to Addy at times. I loved how her mother would belittle her. That was kind of funny. LOL.

Nell Carter from "Gimme a Break" actually LOVED working with her colleagues. She was a very good friend to Joey Lawrence, saw Dolph Sweet on his deathbed, actually wanted Kari Michaelsen and Laurie Hendler to return to the show, and probably was good friends to Thelma Hopkins despite throwing her on the sofa! Women Friends fight a lot but still try to be friends...trust me on this one!

Charolette Rae from "Diffr'nt Strokes/The Facts of Life" left the show for more money...more money to me means the ego is rising! So her character stayed in Hawaii.

Kirk Cameron...to me, should respect everyone, work with everyone despite their fault of sin. If he wants to be Billy Graham, okay...but not on a TV Sitcom. He did that with "Kirk" and the show went nowhere (It was on the WB as well). I too, am a Christian, but Kirk Cameron may be in the Fundamentalist sect (Baptists, Pentecostals, and Independent Denominations) where I'm in the Reformationalist sect (Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Episcopalians).

Kirk Cameron...to me, should respect everyone, work with everyone despite their fault of sin. If he wants to be Billy Graham, okay...but not on a TV Sitcom. He did that with "Kirk" and the show went nowhere (It was on the WB as well). I too, am a Christian, but Kirk Cameron may be in the Fundamentalist sect (Baptists, Pentecostals, and Independent Denominations) where I'm in the Reformationalist sect (Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Episcopalians).

Had I been the show's producer, I would have told Cameron he was under contract and that the show would not be changing his character to reflect his personal religious conversion (or whatever it is that happened to him).

He should have been grateful to be employed on a hit show, playing a character who was generally a good guy and just taken the money.

If Cameron insisted still on changing the show, then I would have offered to release him from his contract. But he was pretty popular at the time, so they caved in and tried to accomodate him. Mistake. The show's the thing -- not one actor's ego.

Look what happened to Angus T. Jones when he became "born again": He spoke out publicly about Two And A Half Men's lack of morals, realized what he'd done and tried to recant, but it was too late: He was fired.

All In The Family. The first four seasons were great, and truly funny. After that, it went downhill fast, with the actors chewing so much scenery, I'm surprised the bunkers had a living room left.

The problem with Kirk Cameron, and most super-religious, ultra-conservative people is that they try and force their morals onto everyone and everywhere and when they are told to stop and let things be, they get even more obnoxious. He got paid to act a character on Growing Pains, not to shove his personal beliefs onto his cast and crew. If he wasn't happy with the direction of his character, he should have left, instead of getting a co-star fired and making life miserable for everyone else on the set.

When he was working on Growing Pains, he said that he would never take off his wedding ring and the show producers had to put flesh-colored tape over it, that was it for him: he is not willing to be another character and he believes HE comes before his character at work. No one is going to want to work with that.

Cybil Shepard is another person whose backstage antics caused two shows to decline. Moonlighting and even her own show Cybill as well, I think too.

And as with Roseanne and Cybil on their shows, Brett Butler too also caused changes with the producers and writers on her show and Brett Butler's erratic behavior backstage also caused actors to come and go heavily as well.

http://www.twcc.com/entertainment/galleries/2015/01/videovault_95sitcoms#/1

Cybill

Created by Big Bang Theory and Two and a Half Men producer Chuck Lorre, Cybill starred Cybill Shepherd as a thinly veiled version of herself; a once popular actress who desperately works to resurrect her flagging career. Although the show attracted an average of 10.4 million over the course of its three seasons and won a Golden Globe Award for Best Television Series – Musical or Comedy in 1996, it was abruptly cancelled by CBS in 1998. After the conclusion of the series, Lorre and staff writer Alan Ball later said that working on the show was a brutal slog due to Shepard’s raging ego. In this episode from the show’s third season, Cybill’s writers not so subtly allude to the difficulty of working with the former Moonlighting star.

Some info of Cybill that failed to get aired during its cancellation date, got recycled and adopted into this former UPN show called "The Parkers", no offense.

If you the stuff regarding Bonnie Franklin (throwing her proverbial weight around (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072554/board/thread/237744033)) on the set of One Day at a Time (but don't take my own word for it)...

Bottom line, Kirk Cameron had influence, he had sway and how could he stay silent about something he objected to?? Would you be able to do that? Did it correlate to a decline in ratings .... debatable. That's the point of this thread, is it not??

I can't believe no one has mentioned Jimmie Walker and Good Times yet.

Or how about Linda Lavin on Alice.

Bottom line, Kirk Cameron had influence, he had sway and how could he stay silent about something he objected to?? Would you be able to do that? Did it correlate to a decline in ratings .... debatable. That's the point of this thread, is it not??

I can't believe no one has mentioned Jimmie Walker and Good Times yet.

Or how about Linda Lavin on Alice.

I just came here to add Linda Lavin (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=215449) on Alice (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=204568).

Depending on your point of view, Sanford & Son (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18194687&postcount=10):

Sanford and Son was a high-rated show for its first five seasons. Its ratings dropped in its sixth season but it was still doing okay.

Then Redd Foxx (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=269567) got an offer to do a variety show on ABC and decided to take the offer. NBC wanted to continue Sanford and Son without Foxx. They originally planned on centering the show around Demond Wilson but he felt he should get a better contract if he was now the lead. The studio and Wilson couldn't reach an agreement so Wilson also left the series.

So the studio retooled the show. They kept the supporting cast and brought in Theodore Wilson to play Phil Wheeler, a supposed old friend of Fred Sanford who bought his business. According to the show, Fred and Lamont had moved to Arizona. The new show, titled Sanford Arms got poor ratings and only lasted one season.

A year went by. Both Foxx's variety show and the studio's replacement show had been cancelled. So an agreement was reached and the show was brought back with Foxx again in the lead. Demond Wilson decided not to return so the revived series was titled Sanford. But the revived series didn't do as well in the ratings as the original had and only lasted two seasons.

Whitman Mayo played Grady Wilson throughout all this. During the fourth season of Sanford and Son, he was given the lead in a spinoff series titled Grady. But he still occasionally appeared on the original show while his spinoff was on the air. And when Grady was cancelled after a single season, he went back to being a supporting character in the original series and he continued to play Grady in Sanford Arms and Sadford.

SANFORD ARMS lasted WAAAY less than 1 season; it only lasted about 5 weeks.

Depending on your point of view, Sanford & Son (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18194687&postcount=10):

Sanford (minus Demond Wilson) premiered on March 15, 1980, so at least two years had passed since the demise of Sanford Arms.


Although only 26 episodes were produced. Sanford technically ran for two seasons, as it premiered towards the end of the 1979-1980 season.

I watched a couple of episodes. Fred without Lamont is like the sound of one hand clapping.

I like Gimmie A Break season three and beyond. I thought that it was a good show. I loved it as a kid when it aired during the 80's. My issue was with Nell becoming to violent and she could be too much of a "B" to Addy at times. I loved how her mother would belittle her. That was kind of funny. LOL.

Apparently, Nell Carter wasn't satisfied w/ the way that GAB was going and had some of the writers and producers replaced following the second season. In the first two seasons, her character wasn't so "abrasive" in personality and dressed decidedly frumpier. Also, Dolph Sweet was seemingly more of equal as her co-star instead of a "second lead" (although his illness by the fourth season more than likely played a factor in that).

^I actually like the later seasons of GAB more. I think Nell Carter did a great job and I have a lot of respect for her. She was a true classy lady.

I think Roseanne Barr/Arnold/etc. is the poster child of when the star takes creative control of her show and crashes it. Roseanne got really, really nutty by then, personally and professionally. I think that fame drives some people literally mentally ill. I dont know her, but she seems to be "chilled out" now and has made her money. She is not famous anymore, not really. I wish people would give Tom Arnold more love, he is pretty good in whatever he is in.

Brett Butler was a drunken lush who i am happy personally wrecked her career because I don't like her acting, her stupid redneck voice and the man bashing show she did. Sorry. Probably my venom comes from being jealous of someone who made it in their career and threw it away.

Alan Alda, took MASH and made it into his leftist, liberal mouthpiece, and basicall took what should be and stayed an ensamble series and turned it into the "Alan Alda Show". I love MASH, own the series and the film, but Alda's goofy politics and all the crap Hawkeye got away with (not to mention his hippie sidekick BJ) which took away from the realism. His "this stupid war" tripe. He lived through that era and knows that the United States was fighting to repel Communist North Korea and saved millions of people from living under North Korea and its horrid government today. I believe in non intervention but the war was honorable, and it is sort of surprising some military groups never took offense at MASH or called BS on it, and again, this comes from someone who is a big fan of the TV show.

Someone who has not been mentioned is Emmanuel Lewis from the show Webster, who from what i read from a website, more or less literally became the boss of the operation. I forgot the details, i will try to find the story now.....

Alan Alda, took MASH and made it into his leftist, liberal mouthpiece, and basicall took what should be and stayed an ensamble series and turned it into the "Alan Alda Show". I love MASH, own the series and the film, but Alda's goofy politics and all the crap Hawkeye got away with (not to mention his hippie sidekick BJ) which took away from the realism. His "this stupid war" tripe. He lived through that era and knows that the United States was fighting to repel Communist North Korea and saved millions of people from living under North Korea and its horrid government today. I believe in non intervention but the war was honorable, and it is sort of surprising some military groups never took offense at MASH or called BS on it, and again, this comes from someone who is a big fan of the TV show.

One thing I have read (and this is more of a critical observation) is that while the TV M*A*S*H was set during the 1950s Korean War, what was said on the show was really a commentary on the then-ongoing Vietnam war that was unfolding on American TV screens in the early 1970s. I think that's plausible, given the anti-war climate of that time period and the fact that people were becoming wise to the sort of lies our government sometimes tells us.

I have also talked to ex-military people who said that doctors in M*A*S*H units were given some latitude in terms of perhaps being non-military material because of the fact they were sorely needed at those units and the commanders understood that you can't discipline draftee doctors the way you would enlisted men.

But I do agree that some of things Hawkeye and his sidekicks said and did would have gotten them into far more trouble in real life than they did on the show.

One thing I have read (and this is more of a critical observation) is that while the TV M*A*S*H was set during the 1950s Korean War, what was said on the show was really a commentary on the then-ongoing Vietnam war that was unfolding on American TV screens in the early 1970s. I think that's plausible, given the anti-war climate of that time period and the fact that people were becoming wise to the sort of lies our government sometimes tells us.

I have also talked to ex-military people who said that doctors in M*A*S*H units were given some latitude in terms of perhaps being non-military material because of the fact they were sorely needed at those units and the commanders understood that you can't discipline draftee doctors the way you would enlisted men.

But I do agree that some of things Hawkeye and his sidekicks said and did would have gotten them into far more trouble in real life than they did on the show.also, discipline was lax in real MASH units because there was a shortage of doctors in Korea, so they couldn't afford to discipline them.