http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/26/arts/television-radio-couples-who-aren-t-or-who-shouldn-t-be.html?scp=3&sq=woody%20frasier&st=cse

While I do agree with what the article says about DHP as Niles, and Jane as Daphne, I disagree with the rest of the article. I don't think the show suffered at all when Niles and Daphne got together. If that were the case, why was the couple of N/D so popular? I mean they couldn't have Niles pining away for Daphne forever no matter how funny it was. :)

I agree Andress. I don't think the show suffered at all after they put Daphne and Niles together. I mean that was the intention all along, to have them as a couple. I'm glad the article didn't trash Jane or David for their personalities or their acting talent (and I love that they said he was brilliant-which he is), but I love that they became a couple. I actually saw the second half of SBSB before I saw the beginning of the series and Daphne running back to him in the Winnebago just made me melt. I think that (and a few other circumstances) is what made me fall in love with them (and the show) and want to start watching from the beginning!

My mother loves the show, but agrees that the show lost its luster after Niles and Daphne got together. She has expressed to me that the ever-so-funny, cutting-edge humor of Niles fumbling around Daphne, getting into predicaments, cornered into denying any such obsessions of staring and/or hair smelling of Daphne was gone.

I somewhat agree, but I think their new relationship breathed a new life into the show. I love the show from first to last season and am the proud owner of the entire show.

In my opinion, FRASIER IS THE SHOW OF SHOWS. :cool:

My mother loves the show, but agrees that the show lost its luster after Niles and Daphne got together. She has expressed to me that the ever-so-funny, cutting-edge humor of Niles fumbling around Daphne, getting into predicaments, cornered into denying any such obsessions of staring and/or hair smelling of Daphne was gone.

I somewhat agree, but I think their new relationship breathed a new life into the show.
I think that is well said, and I agree. I think that because the show ran so long, it would have been ridiculous to have Niles still having the same types of foibles after that many years. And I wonder too, if it wouldn't have eventually felt stale and contributed to an earlier demise of the show if they hadn't have gone somewhere with that relationship... because don't you think that Niles and Daphne's major relationship moments-- which mostly all happened in season 7 and later-- surely contributed to ratings and brought and kept viewers to the show? In fact, I think that's a huge factor in the entire success of the show. I know that without Niles or Daphne, I would not have lasted with the show through eleven seasons. While there are other aspects of the show that I like, without Niles or Daphne, I would have been an occasional viewer who stopped viewing probably after season 2 or 3.

The other thing is, when you build something for that long, you have to follow through for the fans and get the couple together. It's what the fans want to see and every time they do it, on any show, they always call it "jumping the shark." And sometimes it does mess the show up, but I think that's because it wasn't handled right in that a major appeal factor to the show was taken away and not replaced with something else. There are plenty of examples where it was handled right and shows went on for years after. But can you think of any hugely successful show where they left a relationship unrequited? I can't even think of one-- and if you can think of one, it surely wasn't as successful as the shows that got couples together. I think they like to label it "jumping the shark" because it's tricky business that takes real writing skill to handle correctly, and, as always, when you have something that is open to that much interpretation, you're always going to have people disagreeing as to whether it was skillfully handled or not. While "jumping the shark" is often considered a bad thing, it does cross my mind that it's a phenomenon often applied only to the most successful shows, and that in some ways, it seems to be an ingredient for success.

For me, Frasier DID jump the shark, and I say that as a big fan of the first five or so seasons.

When they drifted away from Frasier's radio scenes, I think Frasier really lost focus and became just a bungler who screwed up all his relationships with women and basically acted a fool. I also didn't like how Roz's role really lessened as time went by.

Daphne and Niles were cute, but I think when you pair up characters that have had tension for quite a while, you do lose something that has to be replaced by something equally interesting. I know I risk the ire of many fans here when I say this, and I totally respect your views, but those characters were not as interesting to me once they got together as a couple. I think maybe if they had done so right at the end of the run, it might have worked better.

But as someone has already said, when you have a show that runs 11 years, it's hard to maintain tension and still resolve some things. I honestly begin to believe that most shows really only have about 5 to 6 good years in thie premise and to extend beyond that is a mistake.

For me, Frasier DID jump the shark, and I say that as a big fan of the first five or so seasons.

When they drifted away from Frasier's radio scenes, I think Frasier really lost focus and became just a bungler who screwed up all his relationships with women and basically acted a fool. I also didn't like how Roz's role really lessened as time went by.

Daphne and Niles were cute, but I think when you pair up characters that have had tension for quite a while, you do lose something that has to be replaced by something equally interesting. I know I risk the ire of many fans here when I say this, and I totally respect your views, but those characters were not as interesting to me once they got together as a couple. I think maybe if they had done so right at the end of the run, it might have worked better.

But as someone has already said, when you have a show that runs 11 years, it's hard to maintain tension and still resolve some things. I honestly begin to believe that most shows really only have about 5 to 6 good years in thie premise and to extend beyond that is a mistake.
These are good points too. Your second paragraph is interesting, because that's really where I think it's a matter of taste for the viewer, and it could go either way. I did feel that they replaced the tension with something equally interesting (passion) and I was very happy to have a few seasons to see them together as a couple. But as I said, it's all about individual tastes, I think. Your last sentence is also interesting because it crossed my mind that at season 8, I wonder if they did think they were probably getting them together at the end of the run? Besides Cheers, at the time, most long running shows didn't go much past season 8... and it doesn't seem logical to me that they would automatically expect Frasier would go as long as Cheers did. I wonder if it didn't surprise even them that it went 4 full seasons more.

I was looking at the ratings and they tell an interesting story, too. The show debuted it's first season at #7 in the ratings but never cracked the top ten again until season 5, when it came in at #10.

But season 6, the season that Donny showed up and ended with his proposal, the show popped all the way up to #3, the highest it ever placed in it's entire run. Season 7 was filled with Niles trying to forget about Daphne and move on, (other than the very end when he steals her away from her wedding) and it dropped slightly to #6 that year. But they had already made their bed with that season finale, so they had nowhere to go but to get them together in season 8, and I'm sure they expected a drop in ratings (because they know about jumping the shark too and they probably had no idea how getting them together would impact the show) and the show did drop all the way to #17 that year. But either way, with seasons 6 and 7 being a peak, and 8 dropping a little, there would logically be a season 9, but probably with the expectation that it might be the last season.

But, and here's the interesting part-- that very next season it did pop back up a little, to #14, which is not bad at all-- only 4 places out of the top ten 9 seasons in-- so I betcha that earned them a 10th season. Season 10 dropped all the way to #26 though, but we all know by then that Kelsey Grammer had that desire to try to match Cheers's run and also break the record for playing the same character the most years which maybe got them an 11th season out of respect and gratuity but wasn't enough to convince to some of the cast members or the network to go any more. Just my opinion based on things we've heard and seen, of course.

Season one '93-'94 - #7
Season two '94-'95 - #15
Season three '95-'96 - #11
Season four '96-'97 - #16
Season five '97-'98 - #10
Season six '98-'99 - #3
Season seven '99-'00 - #6
Season eight '00-'01 - #17
Season nine '01-'02 - #14
Season ten '02-'03 - #26
Season eleven '03-'04 - somewhere below the top 30

I'm glad it went on for another season because we got to see Niles and Daphne become parents and that's what we all really wanted. :)

I THOUGHT I was a big Frasier fan until after reading the previous responses and reactions to that article stating that Frasier lost it's luster and sexual appeal after Daphne and Niles became a couple. But I now know that I am just an average fan because I have always felt Frasier "jumped the shark" when the two became an actual couple; and for the EXACT reasons stated in the article. Daphne's taste in men was pathetic: Niles included. She didn't want a Macho Man...she wanted a demur girly-man who wouldn't either challenge or stand up to her. Someone who was ALWAYS on their absolute very best behavior and would build their very world around her. Only wishy-wasy prissy men relate to women that way - and those are the kind of men Daphne preferred and that's what she got.

http://i.imgur.com/jE0Q7Em.jpg

Click on the link below ONLY if you are a HOPELESS Daphne-Niles Romantic

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/daphne%20moon

I THOUGHT I was a big Frasier fan until after reading the previous responses and reactions to that article stating that Frasier lost it's luster and sexual appeal after Daphne and Niles became a couple. But I now know that I am just an average fan because I have always felt Frasier "jumped the shark" when the two became an actual couple; and for the EXACT reasons stated in the article. Daphne's taste in men was pathetic: Niles included. She didn't want a Macho Man...she wanted a demur girly-man who wouldn't either challenge or stand up to her. Someone who was ALWAYS on their absolute very best behavior and would build their very world around her. Only wishy-wasy prissy men relate to women that way - and those are the kind of men Daphne preferred and that's what she got.

http://i.imgur.com/jE0Q7Em.jpg

Click on the link below ONLY if you are a HOPELESS Daphne-Niles Romantic

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/daphne%20moon

Of course, I'm going to disagree with this post because Daphne wasn't like that at all. Niles loved doing things for Daphne even before they became a couple, that's just who he was.
Daphne fell in love with Niles because of who he was not what he could do for her. I can't believe that's what you think when you see them together. I have always thought of them as the ideal married couple. They were so realistic and believable to me and that's why I loved them. But to each their own I guess. :confused:

I THOUGHT I was a big Frasier fan until after reading the previous responses and reactions to that article stating that Frasier lost it's luster and sexual appeal after Daphne and Niles became a couple. But I now know that I am just an average fan because I have always felt Frasier "jumped the shark" when the two became an actual couple; and for the EXACT reasons stated in the article. Daphne's taste in men was pathetic: Niles included. She didn't want a Macho Man...she wanted a demur girly-man who wouldn't either challenge or stand up to her. Someone who was ALWAYS on their absolute very best behavior and would build their very world around her. Only wishy-wasy prissy men relate to women that way - and those are the kind of men Daphne preferred and that's what she got.
Hmm, that is an interesting point of view. I don't see any support in the show for it though...none of the other men she dated in the whole rest of the show were like that at all, and she didn't even like Niles romantically for the first 7 years. She only fell for him when she realized that his attention and actions over those years were based in love for her rather than just friendship. It was Niles who chose to honor and respect her in the ways you mentioned, and that is like finding gold because it's generally the women who do most of the work in holding the family and the relationship together, we only put up with it because we happen to have fallen in love with the guy. Of course Daphne is going to fall for Niles, a guy who not only is in love with her but knows how to give and take in a relationship.
No offense to you, but you must be a guy... possibly a younger guy-- because these words here:

"She didn't want a Macho Man...she wanted a demur girly-man who wouldn't either challenge or stand up to her. Someone who was ALWAYS on their absolute very best behavior and would build their very world around her. Only wishy-wasy prissy men relate to women that way -"

...show a complete non-understanding of why men like Niles act that way, and why women fall for men like that. You said it yourself-- "girly-man"-- because all those things you listed are generally all the work women put into the relationship (and when we expect more from our men we're perceived as a b*tch and the man who apparently lets us act that way is perceived as "wishy-washy, girly, and prissy.") Of course we want someone who is going to give to the relationship as much as we give to it, be as devoted to making it work as we are, and be as willing to sacrifice as much as we do. Women not only look for a man who will love, protect, and take care of her as she will him, but also a partner who will take equal responsibility in running the family and the household. Believe it or not, simply "bringing home the bacon" ain't enough.

Sure, Niles was a bit effeminate, but that is totally tolerable and not an issue at all because underneath it he was a solid, strong man totally present in the relationship. Macho men are great but it wears pretty thin after awhile if there's nothing else there. Surprise, surprise.

But... whatever works for you. :lol:

http://i.imgur.com/YStAKvq.jpg

^^^ Thanks for coming back. So many people drop and run-- meaning they say stuff and then never come back to clarify their viewpoint or offer any explanation for things they say. Not that anyone has to, but it's nice when they do, especially if their post was a little controversial.

Also, I don't know if you read my post or not, but thanks if you did... I tend to be wordy even when I've cut it down-- a lot. :confused:
I know there's a book in me somewhere. :)

I think it did lose it's way after Niles and Daphne got together. I think this was acknowledged by how no sooner had they united them that there formed a series of different storylines to prize the apart be it Mel insisting Niles play the doting husband for a number of episodes, the fat camp (admittedly they had no choice with that one) and Maris later being brought 'back' as a feature in two episodes of the final series.

Part of the intrigue with Niles and Daphne was the 'chase'. Once that went the series lost a lot if its spark. It was still excellent but it really wasn't excellent in the same way.

It was still excellent but it really wasn't excellent in the same way.
:lol: That's funny... Okay, I'll agree with that... still excellent, just excellent in a different way. :lol:

I was looking at the ratings and they tell an interesting story, too. The show debuted it's first season at #7 in the ratings but never cracked the top ten again until season 5, when it came in at #10.

But season 6, the season that Donny showed up and ended with his proposal, the show popped all the way up to #3, the highest it ever placed in it's entire run. Season 7 was filled with Niles trying to forget about Daphne and move on, (other than the very end when he steals her away from her wedding) and it dropped slightly to #6 that year. But they had already made their bed with that season finale, so they had nowhere to go but to get them together in season 8, and I'm sure they expected a drop in ratings (because they know about jumping the shark too and they probably had no idea how getting them together would impact the show) and the show did drop all the way to #17 that year. But either way, with seasons 6 and 7 being a peak, and 8 dropping a little, there would logically be a season 9, but probably with the expectation that it might be the last season.

But, and here's the interesting part-- that very next season it did pop back up a little, to #14, which is not bad at all-- only 4 places out of the top ten 9 seasons in-- so I betcha that earned them a 10th season. Season 10 dropped all the way to #26 though, but we all know by then that Kelsey Grammer had that desire to try to match Cheers's run and also break the record for playing the same character the most years which maybe got them an 11th season out of respect and gratuity but wasn't enough to convince to some of the cast members or the network to go any more. Just my opinion based on things we've heard and seen, of course.

Season one '93-'94 - #7
Season two '94-'95 - #15
Season three '95-'96 - #11
Season four '96-'97 - #16
Season five '97-'98 - #10
Season six '98-'99 - #3
Season seven '99-'00 - #6
Season eight '00-'01 - #17
Season nine '01-'02 - #14
Season ten '02-'03 - #26
Season eleven '03-'04 - somewhere below the top 30


:eek: WOW! I love this post. It's so cleverly thought out. Thank you for posting.

I think the 'will they/won't they' element actually helped boost a series that was beginning to grow somewhat too comfortable with itself. By that I mean a large part of the appeal of the early series - heck, the appeal of the series itself, at least initially - was the fractious and combustible relationship between Frasier and Martin as well as Dr. Crane's adaptation to a new career and new life. As the earlier series ended Frasier settled, became more comfortable within himself and Martin was just an only occasionally disapproving, usually very amicable nice old man in a chair.

Of course that was bound to happen. People settle into jobs, lifestyles and relationships with each other. But it did mean that a spark was lost. It's why it was so fortunate IMO to have Niles has a character almost as important to the series as Frasier. Whereas Fasier without Niles may have lasted six or seven series I think the possibilities with Niles and in particular his situation with Daphne really boosted by the time it culminated a series that without that probably would have been flagging in terms of purpose for existing, if not in terms of quality of writing.

Daphne's change in personality was due to her ceasing to become someone who'd briefly appear in a scene carrying a plate of food and saying something quirky and off the wall. I also think it was to play the 'straight guy' to Niles. If she was as eccentric as she had been in earlier series then Niles, who by that time had become more mellow himself, by comparison may not have looked quite so funny and as important a character as Daphne was - Niles is Niles and perhaps they protected the 'funny' of the most important character.

Daphne's change in personality was due to her ceasing to become someone who'd briefly appear in a scene carrying a plate of food and saying something quirky and off the wall. I also think it was to play the 'straight guy' to Niles. If she was as eccentric as she had been in earlier series then Niles, who by that time had become more mellow himself, by comparison may not have looked quite so funny and as important a character as Daphne was - Niles is Niles and perhaps they protected the 'funny' of the most important character.

I completely agree with this! I wouldn't have made any sense if Daphne was still the same person she was in the earlier seasons. I mean people change and grow and by the time she was with Niles, she had changed and had become part of the family in every way. She didn't need to be that quirky and eccentric anymore. She still had her moments of eccentricity and her little anticdotes, they were just dialed back a bit. Some people really just didn't understand that. I never thought Daphne was that bad. If she had been Niles wouldn't have loved her and Frasier and Martin would have said something. Just saying...:rolleyes:

Great post! :D

I was looking at the ratings and they tell an interesting story, too. The show debuted it's first season at #7 in the ratings but never cracked the top ten again until season 5, when it came in at #10.

But season 6, the season that Donny showed up and ended with his proposal, the show popped all the way up to #3, the highest it ever placed in it's entire run. Season 7 was filled with Niles trying to forget about Daphne and move on, (other than the very end when he steals her away from her wedding) and it dropped slightly to #6 that year. But they had already made their bed with that season finale, so they had nowhere to go but to get them together in season 8, and I'm sure they expected a drop in ratings (because they know about jumping the shark too and they probably had no idea how getting them together would impact the show) and the show did drop all the way to #17 that year. But either way, with seasons 6 and 7 being a peak, and 8 dropping a little, there would logically be a season 9, but probably with the expectation that it might be the last season.

But, and here's the interesting part-- that very next season it did pop back up a little, to #14, which is not bad at all-- only 4 places out of the top ten 9 seasons in-- so I betcha that earned them a 10th season. Season 10 dropped all the way to #26 though, but we all know by then that Kelsey Grammer had that desire to try to match Cheers's run and also break the record for playing the same character the most years which maybe got them an 11th season out of respect and gratuity but wasn't enough to convince to some of the cast members or the network to go any more. Just my opinion based on things we've heard and seen, of course.

Season one '93-'94 - #7
Season two '94-'95 - #15
Season three '95-'96 - #11
Season four '96-'97 - #16
Season five '97-'98 - #10
Season six '98-'99 - #3
Season seven '99-'00 - #6
Season eight '00-'01 - #17
Season nine '01-'02 - #14
Season ten '02-'03 - #26
Season eleven '03-'04 - somewhere below the top 30

Actually, Season 11 ended at #30.