Well I was on the IMDB Frasier page and they are doing it over there too. They are going on and on about how "HORRIBLE" Daphne was after she got with Niles. I am so sick of it! :mad: My comments are in parenthesis. Feel free to leave your comments. :)

Here is the question the poster of the thread asked:

Why did they make Daphne so horrible in the last series?
When she was pregnant she was so horrible and narky and snide to Niles, finding fault with everything.
Pretty unpleasant to watch actually, and sort of ended their love story on a sour note.
And i don't rate "it's cos she was pregnant and hormonal" as an excuse. The writers should have known better!-snowy_blue

Replies:

snowy, there was a long thread on this some time ago. My main gripes about the ending of this show: 1. They turned Daphne into a major you-know what. 2. Everyone was in a relationship except for Roz, who deserved love more than anyone. Yes, Frasier wasn't really with Charlotte yet, but it gave the impression he would be as he was on the plane, and 3. They chickened out and didn't have the courage to out Frasier. Many here disagree with me (who cares?) but he was so clearly gay, how could anyone miss it? It showed an appalling lack of courage on the part of the writers.-deliaw1946

Is it possible Jane Leeves (Daphne) asked the writers to allow her to show a darker side? Was she tired of playing the pleasant employee & wanted a chance to spread her acting wings a bit?
I thought the show really suffered when Daphne & Niles became a couple.-Ll-Mom

(I disagree with that last line.)

I absolutely hated it when Daphne changed when her and Niles got together. I found Daphne very endearing in the first 7 seasons with her kooky personality and the wacky lines/stories she came out with. She like Martin and Roz were the polar opposites of Frasier and Niles which made this show pure genius.
That was the Daphne that Niles had fell in love with, not this shrewish, mean spirited woman who treated Niles like crap at every given opportunity. The charm of Daphne was that she was completely different to Maris and even Mel, but unfortunately the writers and possibly Jane Leeves got it all wrong. -cottiermike

I agree, cottiermike.
And Niles became a jerk with hardly an ounce of sense.
Both characters lost all their charm.-Ll-Mom

(That post is a load of pure crap.):mad:

It's possible, but even her "darkness" wasn't sublime, the way her cuteness was; it was just a trivial, mean, petty sort of darkness.-bron-tay

I think maybe there were too many guys in the writing room and not enough girls. It can be hard for a guy to write convincing lines and reactions for the female perspective, and for girls to write for male perspectives too.
I guess we'll never know the true story behind the change.-comicbook_store_guy

After they got together, they never really seemed like a real couple. Just Daphne bossing him around and Niles being completely whipped.
The only time I ever remember him standing up to her was right after she got back from the fat farm. And even then, he immediately apologized and begged for forgiveness.-alanjobe

"After they got together, they never really seemed like a real couple. Just Daphne bossing him around and Niles being completely whipped."
Ah, the irony of it all. Sounds like Niles ended up with Maris and Mel after all. Life is really funny that way. And somehow I don't think this sad irony was lost on the writers of the show. Nor most of its audience. Peace-fonte-2

(Whatever.):rolleyes:

This is only a theory, but they were several hints about how Daphne's mother psychologically abused her and it is quite common for the abused victim to become the abuser themselves. Maybe I'm just reading to much into this, but what does anyone else think?
I know it is only fictional, but I found the scene where Daphne was on the phone to Gertrude and she assumed that Donny had dumped Daphne for somebody better quite uncomfortable viewing.-cottiermike

Same thing with Patricia Richardson on Home Improvement, Patricia Heaton on Everyone Loves Raymond and so many others. They misinterpret a strong woman as being a b----. Ruins the characters. What made Daphne great was her eccentricities and naive nature, her ability to love deeply.-mainecoon1995

She got very brass, rude and cheeky (it was quirky when she was the employee – "Old man!") and got very used to Niles' lifestyle too quickly for my liking. And in one pregnancy episode she wears revolting hoop earrings which just aren't right at all, either for old quirky Daphne or new rich Daphne. Their getting together didn't exactly ruin the series, but it did demolish a huge element of the tension and comedy.-ae23902000

(Um, she had always called him old man or old sod.)

Daphne definitely had a witchy-phase. I suspect that once she and Niles got together the writers felt that the humor in their relationship should come from her being scolding and him being henpecked. But didn't the show start to recover? I saw three episodes from season nine last night (Bla-Z-Boy, 200th Episode, Sharing Kirby) where Daph was back to her old daffy self--with the rambling stories about her family and the goofy lilt in her voice.-dan456-1

(Now I like what this poster said. The only positive one.) :(

I want to make some comments on this but I can't do much right now because it's getting late and I have to be up for work at 5am.

The gist of what I think is that a lot of these people are young and maybe don't understand how relationships change and grow. I always saw Daphne and Niles as perfect for each other. She's a strong woman but she was always a strong woman right from the beginning. It astounds me that everyone wants to comment on how Daphne changed but no one ever notices how positively Niles changed. He became such the better man and so much happier and so much more confident. If I have time some other day I'll come back and list examples. I've said this before (right here (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=288572&page=2)) and I still believe they had a give-and-take relationship and what people mistake for henpecking and no-sense is the two of them holding each other accountable in a normal, healthy relationship.

You know, as I was looking back at some of these posts, we've heard a lot of outspoken opinions from a lot of people who didn't like that Daphne grew and changed, and we have responded until we're blue in the face, but actually this post, I think, might even be more offensive to me than those others:
...and 3. They chickened out and didn't have the courage to out Frasier. Many here disagree with me (who cares?) but he was so clearly gay, how could anyone miss it? It showed an appalling lack of courage on the part of the writers.-deliaw1946
I mean, really? Clearly gay? Well I've got something to say to deliaw1946 whether he/she cares or not, and since this person seems to like checklists...

1. So just how does this person so clearly come to that conclusion? We never once, not once, saw Frasier show or even hint at any sexual attraction toward men at all, nor did he ever have any kind of sexual encounter with a man. Does this person know that that's what "gay" means? There were some gay characters who were friends of his, but he was not in a homosexual relationship with them. And since the behavior that defines "gay" was not there, I don't even want to know what kind of stereotypical, biased, prejudiced list this person would come up with to support their point that he was "clearly" gay.

2. So, all we can assume is that this person is making their idiotic and illogical conclusion based on biases and stereotypes... so then what makes Niles an exception from being "clearly gay?" He was a bigger metrosexual (look it up :rolleyes: ) and was more effeminate than Frasier was, so what excludes him? Is it because he had the hots for Daphne? So, then, by that logic, anyone who doesn't have either long term hots for someone of the opposite sex or hasn't found their opposite gendered soulmate must be "clearly gay?" So that makes Roz, Kenny, Bulldog, and about 70% of the world population "clearly gay." Or even worse, if your words and actions don't fit perfectly into this person's bigoted box of what "not gay" is, then you must be, in fact, gay? Now that is appalling and offensive to gays and straights alike (how could anyone miss it? :rolleyes: ), taken to an even higher level of offensiveness by their exclamation that they don't care that their views are prejudiced and bigoted. Shame on you, deliaw1946.

And 3. "...an appalling lack of courage on the part of the writers?" Hey, guess what? God was not the creator of Frasier Crane, nor is he a real person. Frasier Crane's Almighty Creator were those writers, and they didn't make him gay... so... doesn't that definitively disprove this person's idiotic statement? Doesn't that in fact make him clearly not gay? Characterization is an art just like any other art form, and for some dolt to stand there and presume to criticize another person's vision for their artwork... well they might as well go to the nearest art gallery, stand in front of someone's painting and tell the artist all the ways they missed the point of their painting out of cowardice. It's ridiculous.

We can only assume that this person thinks that the writers wanted to make him gay but didn't, which is an idea that is completely without support or evidence. They already had ten years of character development from Cheers and to make him gay now would have been unbelievable and the death of the show. Even if it were the case that they wanted to make him gay, not doing it wouldn't be for "chickening out" it would more likely be because they pushed the envelope as far as they could with the censors and sponsors of the show for the time in history that the show aired, which equates more closely with 'bold' than it would with chickening out.

I wish people would use their brains before they throw out fool ideas like this. :rolleyes:
Andress, I don't belong to that forum, but feel free to post my words over there if you so desire, and you can sign it "Love, bingbang." Pffft. :p

2. So, all we can assume is that this person is making their idiotic and illogical conclusion based on biases and stereotypes... so then what makes Niles an exception from being "clearly gay?" He was a bigger metrosexual (look it up :rolleyes: ) and was more effeminate than Frasier was, so what excludes him? Is it because he had the hots for Daphne?

Yeah I agree. But we all know that Niles wasn't gay either. He may have been more effeminate than Frasier but that's just because he wasn't a man's man, so to speak. He and Frasier liked the finer things, it doesn't mean they were gay. Niles even admitted to the ski instructor at the lodge that he wasn't gay after he realized Guy was hitting on him. Niles had eyes for no one but Daphne. Boy that screams gay doesn't it? Just because Frasier couldn't find the right woman doesn't mean he was gay. He was just very particular when it came to women and he ended up with a woman in the series finale anyway. Deliaw is delusional. :rolleyes:

Yes, Daphne was much less light-humored and friendly in the later seasons. BUT IF SHE WAS IN EPISODES, LIKE WHEN NILES WAS FACED WITH JAIL TIME FOR THE MURDER MARIS COMMITTED, THEY WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT HOW DAPHNE WAS READY FOR THE LOONEY BEN INSTEAD.

DON'T GET ME STARTED. :mad:

If those people who are making this statements went back through the later series, that would "re-cant" their statements. I watched the entire series with this in mind and noted that all of her actions were the actions of a wonderful wife, person, friend, etc.

What about the time she found out that Niles didn't know how to ride a bike? Did she laugh at him or poke fun at him? NO, she taught him and Frasier how to ride.

Thank you for your post, Pat! You are so right! :D

I think those who replied to that thread are idiots and honestly I don't have any respect for anyone who posts on those IMDB threads. I read some really horrible things about Stanley Kammel of Monk (who sadly passed away in 2008 from a sudden heart attack-I was devastated), so it's not surprising that they would choose to insult Jane or David. Sorry I don't have much to say about this subject, but it's probably better if I don't go back and read them. But I enjoyed reading your thoughts Andress, Pat and Bingbangbaby!