The sitcom in question is 'Phyllis' which debuted in September of 1975 from MTM Enterprises. It was followed by a similar yet quite different sitcom called 'One Day At A Time' in December of '75. Phyllis was a widow left with nothing while Ann Romano was divorced. Why is one considered groundbreaking (ODAAT) and the other not? (Phyllis)

My only guess would be that "Phyllis" wasn't the first series to feature a widowed mom trying to raise a child. Other than that, I have no idea.

My only guess would be that "Phyllis" wasn't the first series to feature a widowed mom trying to raise a child. Other than that, I have no idea.


Which was the first?

Which was the first?

Julia was before Phyllis but I'm not sure if it was the first.

Julia was before Phyllis but I'm not sure if it was the first.



Hmmm, so I guess Julia was a widower raising kids? I know 'Alice' was as well but that started in 1976. Yet One Day At A Time is still the one considered "groundbreaking"

I think there were widows and widowers raising kids on TV as far back as the 1950's so "Phyllis" was far from groundbreaking here. Also, considering that Bess was in her late teens when Lars died, exactly how much 'raising' did Phyllis have left to do? If anything, Bess seemed more grounded that Phyllis [no surprise].

Then, too, the show's opening/closing credits focused entirely on Phyllis gallivanting solo around the Frisco tourist spots without Bess anywhere in sight [or thought ?] and even the "MTM" shots were entirely preoccupied by Phyllis alone so it seemed evident re the credits that the show's primary focus was supposed to be how Phyllis was going to get along in a new city rather than how she was going to raise a nearly grown child on her own.
Maybe it wasn't Cloris's intention but the credits seemed incredibly myopic re Phyllis with none of the other regulars even glimpsed at in the opening credits and only clips of the other performers in the proceeding show shown at the closing credits. I mean even "MTM" [starring exec producer Grant Tinker's then-wife] soon included other performers in its opening/closing regular credits as did "Rhoda" but never "Phyllis". But then, too, Phyllis had always been all about her. :lol:

I think there were widows and widowers raising kids on TV as far back as the 1950's so "Phyllis" was far from groundbreaking here. Also, considering that Bess was in her late teens when Lars died, exactly how much 'raising' did Phyllis have left to do? If anything, Bess seemed more grounded that Phyllis [no surprise].

Then, too, the show's opening/closing credits focused entirely on Phyllis gallivanting solo around the Frisco tourist spots without Bess anywhere in sight [or thought ?] and even the "MTM" shots were entirely preoccupied by Phyllis alone so it seemed evident re the credits that the show's primary focus was supposed to be how Phyllis was going to get along in a new city rather than how she was going to raise a nearly grown child on her own.
Maybe it wasn't Cloris's intention but the credits seemed incredibly myopic re Phyllis with none of the other regulars even glimpsed at in the opening credits and only clips of the other performers in the proceeding show shown at the closing credits. I mean even "MTM" [starring exec producer Grant Tinker's then-wife] soon included other performers in its opening/closing regular credits as did "Rhoda" but never "Phyllis". But then, too, Phyllis had always been all about her. :lol:


Interesting, do you think that was Cloris Leachman's doing with the credits or was it just a way to show the character as being self-centered?

Interesting, do you think that was Cloris Leachman's doing with the credits or was it just a way to show the character as being self-centered?

I'm not sure if Cloris herself lobbied for said credits or that this was something Grant Tinker,etc. foisted on her. However; it sure did achieve the goal of showing how self-centered Phyllis was [as if any viewer who'd seen her for more than five seconds could have had any shadow of a doubt]!:lol:

I'm not sure if Cloris herself lobbied for said credits or that this was something Grant Tinker,etc. foisted on her. However; it sure did achieve the goal of showing how self-centered Phyllis was [as if any viewer who'd seen her for more than five seconds could have had any shadow of a doubt]!:lol:

I still think it is a big mystery as to how or why Phyllis was chosen to get a spin-off???

I still think it is a big mystery as to how or why Phyllis was chosen to get a spin-off???

Maybe because no one wanted to imagine Mary still having to be in that house with Phyllis sans Rhoda as a buffer. :whatever:

Maybe because no one wanted to imagine Mary still having to be in that house with Phyllis sans Rhoda as a buffer. :whatever:

Phyllis was being seen less and less and then all of a sudden, she gets her own show. Very bizarre. lol

i think what was different about ODAAT was that it was one of the first shows to feature a divorced family - something that was still pretty much taboo back then

i think what was different about ODAAT was that it was one of the first shows to feature a divorced family - something that was still pretty much taboo back then


I suppose you are right, because even Mary Tyler Moore wasn't allowed to be divorced.

I suppose you are right, because even Mary Tyler Moore wasn't allowed to be divorced.
i know that I really identified with the show back then because my parents were divorced when I was very young and i was literally the only kid in my grade that had divorced parents

i know that I really identified with the show back then because my parents were divorced when I was very young and i was literally the only kid in my grade that had divorced parents


Wow, sorry to hear that :(

I think part of the reason people don't consider Phyllis to be groundbreaking is that it didn't run as long as TMTMS, and it wasn't as memorable. As has been stated on these boards before, Phyllis just wasn't somebody you could build a show around. She was much better as a side character, IMO. And since TMTMS is a show that's remembered as being groundbreaking, Phyllis is kind of in the shadow of that.

I think part of the reason people don't consider Phyllis to be groundbreaking is that it didn't run as long as TMTMS, and it wasn't as memorable. As has been stated on these boards before, Phyllis just wasn't somebody you could build a show around. She was much better as a side character, IMO. And since TMTMS is a show that's remembered as being groundbreaking, Phyllis is kind of in the shadow of that.


While I have you Kristen, maybe you'll know the answer to this question...

If Phyllis had a reduced role on MTM, then why was she chosen as a spin-off character?

While I have you Kristen, maybe you'll know the answer to this question...

If Phyllis had a reduced role on MTM, then why was she chosen as a spin-off character?
My guess is, they saw the success of Rhoda, and said, "Hey, let's give our other secondary female a sitcom!" Not the brightest idea ever, IMO. But I guess you can't blame them for trying!

And BTW, I'm not knocking Chloris in any way. I think she did a wonderful job on TMTMS. I just don't think the character worked well on her own.

My guess is, they saw the success of Rhoda, and said, "Hey, let's give our other secondary female a sitcom!" Not the brightest idea ever, IMO. But I guess you can't blame them for trying!

And BTW, I'm not knocking Chloris in any way. I think she did a wonderful job on TMTMS. I just don't think the character worked well on her own.


I hear ya...

It makes sense what you're saying. The only other thing I wonder is, if she reduced her workload on MTM to star in movies, then why did she accept the show?

My only guess would be that "Phyllis" wasn't the first series to feature a widowed mom trying to raise a child. Other than that, I have no idea.

Which was the first?

Julia was before Phyllis but I'm not sure if it was the first.

There are MANY sitcoms predating Phyllis that featuring a widow or widower raising children. Here are a few:

Character/Show/Date

Danny Williams/Make Room for Daddy/1956 (show premiered in 1953, character became a widower in 1956)

Steve Douglas/My Three Sons/1960

Andy Taylor/The Andy Griffith Show/1960

Luke McCoy/The Real McCoys/1962 (show premiered in 1957, character became a widower in 1962)

Lucy Carmichael/The Lucy Show/1962 (also, co-star Vivian Vance played a divorcee with a young son)

Kate Bradley/Petticoat Junction/1963

Julia Baker/Julia/1968

Doris Martin/The Doris Day Show/1968

Lucy Carter/Here's Lucy/1968

Carolyn Muir/The Ghost and Mrs. Muir/1968

Tom Corbett/The Courtship of Eddie's Father/1969

Shirley Partridge/The Partridge Family/1970

By the time Phyllis premiered in 1975, it had been at least 19 years since a widower was first depicted in a sitcom (Danny Thomas as Danny Williams on Make Room for Daddy); at least 12 years since a widow had first been depicted in a sitcom (Lucille Ball as Lucy Carmichael on The Lucy Show); and 12 years since a divorcee had first been depicted on a sitcom (Vivian Vance as Vivian Bagley on The Lucy Show). While some of these shows were more focused on the comedy, shows like Julia, The Andy Griffith Show and The Courtship of Eddie's Father sometimes dealt head-on with the emotional issues of being a one-parent household, so I don't see what is even so ground-breaking about One Day at a Time, other than the Julie and Barbara dealing with the pain of their parent's divorce (Vivian Bagley only made jokes about her ex-husband on The Lucy Show).

You can add to that list The Dennis O'Keefe Show (1959-60): widower and son
and
The Governor and J.J. (1969-71): widower and daughter

You can add to that list The Dennis O'Keefe Show (1959-60): widower and son
and
The Governor and J.J. (1969-71): widower and daughter

Thanks. And I was thinking also of Uncle Bill on Family Affair (1966-71). Although he wasn't a widower, he was essentially acting the part of a single parent to three orphans. And for that matter, so was Bentley Gregg on Bachelor Father (1957-63). And the series To Rome with Love (1969-71), Nanny and the Professor (1970-71), and Mayberry R.F.D. (1968-1971) were also about widowers raising one or more children. I'm sure there are many more examples.

Actually, in 1955, the show 'It's Always Jan' [starring Janis Paige]depicted the title character as a young widowed mother of a wartime child trying to make it big in the nightclub world but the one show I saw, it seemed she was so self-absorbed re her career woes and barely considering her daughter's day-to-day existence, the daughter might as well have been a goldfish. Somehow this seems a bit apt for the "Phyliss" forum. :rolleyes:

I read in a book on the MTMS that Cloris was keen to enjoy the sitcom success that Valerie had with "Rhoda",Alan Burns and James Brookes thought the Phyllis spinoff was a bad idea but the network went ahead.

I actually enjoyed the first season of "Phyllis" but the change of job in season2,an influx of mostly unlikeable characters in season2 and the death of Judith Lowry,meant the end for "Phyllis".

I too enjoyed the early Phyllis episodes. And I tend to think that Cloris' beauty is oftentimes underrated. She had an appealing feminine look.

And even though she did not look "glam," at times on her single Lassie season I thought her beauty was breathtaking. Certainly attractive on The Untouchables as well.

I too enjoyed the early Phyllis episodes. And I tend to think that Cloris' beauty is oftentimes underrated. She had an appealing feminine look.

And even though she did not look "glam," at times on her single Lassie season I thought her beauty was breathtaking. Certainly attractive on The Untouchables as well.
Well she looked good until she was 50 at least.

She looked good on Mary Tyler Moore but to be honest by the time she was on Facts of Life she just looked to old by then to me. But considering she was in her 60s then, that's not such a big deal.

I would imagine she was a VERY attractive woman when she was in her 20s.....just like Audra Lindley was.

Well, she DID win the Miss Chicago pageant in 1946 [despite not living or being from there] and used that to launch her career. Yes, she was actually somewhat attractive well into middle age but I have to give her credit that she was willing to play the character as a ditzy, flaky person who was more vain than she really was 'entitled' to! The only other performers at that time who weren't afraid to have humor re their appearance at their own expense I can think of were Carol Burnett and the late Bea Arthur .

Keep in mind, at the same time PHYLLIS was debuting, NBC was also debuting a new sitcom called FAY, starring Lee Grant. Grant played a newly-divorced mother living in a big city as a career woman, and raising a daughter on her own. The show lasted about two months before NBC cancelled it due to low ratings (though Grant won an Emmy nod for her work).

So like PHYLLIS being a single mom in a big city raising a daughter, we had FAY. And she was the first divorced lead female character (ODAAT and RHODA* came after FAY) to have her own show.

*I know RHODA debuted a year before, but RHODA was married until 1976.