I'm in the middle of watching the Dede Rosenthal segment and the bartender is so sure that she saw Dede in her bar acting strangely. After a man was convicted of murder (the body was never found) it was pretty much determined that the woman spotted more than once at that bar was not Dede Rosenthal.

That got me to thinking about how it used to be believed that eye witnesses were the best possible way of learning what happened but now it looks like eye witnesses might be one of the weakest links in a case.

Which UM segments had eyewitnesses who were eventually found to be wrong? I can think of a few such as the cases of:

Dede Rosenthal - bartender who saw her with brown hair then bleached hair, before and after the woman took a supposed trip to FL

Tom Roche - motorcycle shop owner says he saw Tom after he went missing (police think he's mistaken about the date of the sighting)

Kari Lynn Nixon - lady in a different state says she was introduced to Kari

Lisa Marie Kimmell - people who saw Lisa's car w/personalized plates

Gail Delano - truck driver who said she had "that northern accent pretty bad"

Would a psychic witness count?

Would a psychic witness count?

Sure. Whatcha got?

I'm fairly certain that the truck driver who allegedly gave John Cheek a ride is mistaken.

Sure. Whatcha got?

The psychic who thought he "saw" who killed Sherry Eyerly but turned out to be wrong.

Some people think the gas station attendant who fingered Michael Scott Martin was mistaken, but thats never been proven.

A lot of eyewitnesses were mistaken about spotting Wanda Jean Mays since she was discovered to have fallen off a cliff the same night she disappeared.

Even though her body has never been found, I'm sure the couple who thought they saw Cathy Ford working in a restaurant were mistaken, as every other piece of evidence points to Paul Ferrell killing her.

I'm sure the sightings of Matthew Chase at the rescue mission were probably mistaken too unless he somehow became disoriented on the night he vanished and was killed later.

Wasn't there a girl who went missing and her car had a vanity plate, like Missy or something, or Sassy? It turned out that the people who saw here were mistaken about the dates I believe...

Wasn't there a girl who went missing and her car had a vanity plate, like Missy or something, or Sassy? It turned out that the people who saw here were mistaken about the dates I believe...
Lisa Marie Kimmell, who I was just about to mention. Her license plate was titled "Lil Miss" and it seems that many of the eyewitnesses were incorrect about the dates or sightings at all, like the gas station one and the pink and yellow sweater ones.

Lisa Marie Kimmell, who I was just about to mention. Her license plate was titled "Lil Miss" and it seems that many of the eyewitnesses were incorrect about the dates or sightings at all, like the gas station one and the pink and yellow sweater ones.

Yep that was it, thanks!

This one is kind of iffy but David Trusnik claimed he saw Kurt Sova and another boy walking down the street a full 3 days after Susan's party, less than a mile from Kurt's home. At that point the two boys yelled, "Franko!" and then got in a van. Trusnik said he didn't know Kurt was missing at the time so he didn't do anything and he was sure about the date of this sighting because he was on his way to a job interview that morning. Two days later, Kurt's body was found in the ravine.

It's hard to believe this sighting is accurate since I've always thought Kurt was in Susan's basement for the 5 days he was missing.

Kari Lynn Nixon - lady in a different state says she was introduced to Kari


This is the one thats always stood out to me the most. She sounded so sure. But I always thought there was something fishy about it, considering when the girl who allegedly introduced them was contacted she claimed to be 'suffering from a memory lapse', I heard that and was like WTH? Thats either majorly unlucky or majorly convenient whichever way you want to look at it. I wonder if UM and possibly even the local authorities had a good idea the whole South Carolina scenario was BS and just stuck it in the show to dramatize the story a little?

Not to mention the letters from Flint, Michigan regarding Kari.

Totally bizarre. And unfortunate that Kari's family had to get their hopes up.

I am not sure this counts as a witness since it was a mysterious phone call but what about those creepy phone calls saying Judith Hymes was alive?

why would someone call the cops and say a woman missing for two decades was alive when she wasn't? Thats extremely bizarre. I guess its possible it could be someone who was simply mistaken.

Of course granted, if I recall correctly the only confirmation I know of that Judith Hymes was dead was the anonymous letter claiming she died from an illegal abortion, that was in the update, and it seemed like the authorities were quick to regard it as authentic, I'm inclined to think it probably was. But I guess without a body they can't be sure, I do wonder if they ever found one?

Still another very strange witness report that apparently was false, Unsolved Mysteries had no short of puzzling stories for sure.

I always thought the sighting of Kari Lynn Nixon was a cruel joke played by those girls. Kids do stupid stuff, it's quite possible a girl was going around telling people she was the missing girl. Plus that "memory lapse" seems awfully convienent...

What about the case of the girl who everybody saw appeared in a convenience store video (even her family) but it turned out later that she was murdered along with her boyfriend by Angel Resendiz (the railroad killer).

The Nixon case's witness was obviously an idiot.

What about the case of the girl who everybody saw appeared in a convenience store video (even her family) but it turned out later that she was murdered along with her boyfriend by Angel Resendiz (the railroad killer).

Wendy von Hubben and Jesse Howell? Her parents said it was her in the video but who knows for sure.

It was thought that Kari Lynn Nixon was in a New Kids On The Block music video, but that was later proven to be false.

I always thought the sighting of Kari Lynn Nixon was a cruel joke played by those girls. Kids do stupid stuff, it's quite possible a girl was going around telling people she was the missing girl. Plus that "memory lapse" seems awfully convienent...

I've always thought the same exact thing.

This one is kind of iffy but David Trusnik claimed he saw Kurt Sova and another boy walking down the street a full 3 days after Susan's party, less than a mile from Kurt's home. At that point the two boys yelled, "Franko!" and then got in a van. Trusnik said he didn't know Kurt was missing at the time so he didn't do anything and he was sure about the date of this sighting because he was on his way to a job interview that morning. Two days later, Kurt's body was found in the ravine.

It's hard to believe this sighting is accurate since I've always thought Kurt was in Susan's basement for the 5 days he was missing.

agreed, except they moved him from there sometime before 3 AM on Wednesday, 10/28/81 when "Susan" made the phone call and then put his body in the ravine in the early afternoon of that day

You ever wonder what would have happened if Kurt's Mom would have just decided to go down into the basement, without permission, to look for him when she went over there to look for him on Saturday (or was it Sunday), 10/24?

agreed, except they moved him from there sometime before 3 AM on Wednesday, 10/28/81 when "Susan" made the phone call and then put his body in the ravine in the early afternoon of that day

You ever wonder what would have happened if Kurt's Mom would have just decided to go down into the basement, without permission, to look for him when she went over there to look for him on Saturday (or was it Sunday), 10/24?

The party Kurt went to was on Friday night. The Sova's registered Kurt as a missing person Sunday morning. Dorothy went to the duplex and talked to Susan's babysitter Sunday afternoon. David Trusnik's sighting happened Monday morning.

The party Kurt went to was on Friday night. The Sova's registered Kurt as a missing person Sunday morning. Dorothy went to the duplex and talked to Susan's babysitter Sunday afternoon. David Trusnik's sighting happened Monday morning.

okay, can still imagine it would have been really dramatic if Kurt's mom went into the basement that day and found him lying there

I always thought the sighting of Kari Lynn Nixon was a cruel joke played by those girls. Kids do stupid stuff, it's quite possible a girl was going around telling people she was the missing girl. Plus that "memory lapse" seems awfully convienent...

I totally agree, that little girl was full of ****!:crazy:

I think the fish lady who claims to have witnessed AJ Breaux selling fish from a van most certainly was wrong.

I think anybody who claimed to see a missing person after they were missing was wrong.

The credibility of both witnesses in the Lauren Jackson abduction is questionable.

One witness, an 11-year-old girl who did not know Lauren as far as I know, claims that she saw Lauren forcefully abducted by a stranger. Because of the girl's relatively young age and the quickness and haste involved in a random on-the-spot abduction (which would likely prevent somebody from getting a really good look a victim, especially if it's a small child) I think the girl might be confused about who or what she saw.

The other witness was a woman who claimed that she saw Lauren's mother give her own daughter away in a parking lot. Many people claim this witness is also mistaken. I'm really not sure what to think. I'd like to think that she's mistaken, but being older and probably smarter than the other witness, as well as having a lengthier opportunity to witness and assess what she thinks she saw, I'm unfortunately more inclined to go with this scenario.

I guess the best thing that could happen at this point is that if Lauren, who would be 29 years old now, is still alive (which would seem somewhat more likely if the second theory is true), she'll come forward and make public what happened back in 1988. Unlikely for sure, but as I like to say, stranger things have happened.

I think anybody who claimed to see a missing person after they were missing was wrong.

I think thats generalizing way to much. Sure, many of them were probably wrong but all of them?

The reliability of eyewitnesses has often been called into question, but its really hard to gauge their accuracy. Depends on so many factors you almost have to look at each case individually, among them:

1. How far away they were when they witnessed the event or saw a person.

2. The time of day obviously, its self evident that its easier to observe in the day time.

3. Their own state of mind. If there was an event of something bad happening, the witness may have feared for their own life, and I think fear can easily cause someone to mistake what they say or a person's identity, even if they are up close.

4. Whether or not they had any connection to what was happening or not. If a witness is emotionally involved at all, it can cast some doubt on their honesty.

But I don't think its reasonable to say that anyone who saw a missing person is wrong.

The lady on the train that claims to have seen Craig Williamson in Washington state was definitely wrong because Williamson was found alive and well in Florida.

The lady on the train that claims to have seen Craig Williams in Washington state was definitely wrong because Williams was found alive and well in Florida.

Not neccessarily. He may simply not have made it to Florida yet, and he was thought to be suffering from some sort of amnesia. Yeah Florida is a long way from Washington State but that can still be covered obviously.

There were theories that Craig Williams never had amnesia at all, but simply faked it to get out of his marriage. But I don't think this was ever confirmed or proven.

There were theories that Craig Williams never had amnesia at all, but simply faked it to get out of his marriage. But I don't think this was ever confirmed or proven.

This is exactly what I think happened. I believe there was a newspaper article that said beard trimmings were found in his abandoned vehicle and authorities theorized that he was changing his appearance. Something a man suffering from amnesia would not do. And he never reached out to any organization for help. Florida seems like such a convenient place for someone to go to that has "amnesia". I think he got hitched too soon, didn't have the guts to break it off to his wife's face, so he hightailed it out of there to Florida to start over. When he was found, the "amnesia" story was born.

This is exactly what I think happened. I believe there was a newspaper article that said beard trimmings were found in his abandoned vehicle and authorities theorized that he was changing his appearance. Something a man suffering from amnesia would not do. And he never reached out to any organization for help. Florida seems like such a convenient place for someone to go to that has "amnesia". I think he got hitched too soon, didn't have the guts to break it off to his wife's face, so he hightailed it out of there to Florida to start over. When he was found, the "amnesia" story was born.
If that's true, it's so heartbreaking, especially his fake "we're not the same couple anymore since I'm a different person now." How BS after all she went through for him! I hope she found someone who deserved her.

If that's true, it's so heartbreaking, especially his fake "we're not the same couple anymore since I'm a different person now." How BS after all she went through for him! I hope she found someone who deserved her.

Yeah. If indeed Craig did that he's a piece of crap. Worry someone to death who cares that much for you because you don't have the guts to just end it to their face.

Yeah. If indeed Craig did that he's a piece of crap. Worry someone to death who cares that much for you because you don't have the guts to just end it to their face.

I became skeptical after the UPDATE that said Williamson was found alive and well in Key West suffering from "amnesia". :rolleyes:

Re: Craig Williamson...maybe I'm losing my marbles but I thought I remembered two versions of this update. One version aired shortly after he was found and just sort of "gave the basics" about it. The second version aired later and went more in depth about the fact that he and Christine were getting divorced, that the feelings weren't there, etc. It seems that this second update was less frequently shown and perhaps never or seldom shown on Lifetime(?) Kane, are you reading this?

Re: Craig Williamson...maybe I'm losing my marbles but I thought I remembered two versions of this update. One version aired shortly after he was found and just sort of "gave the basics" about it. The second version aired later and went more in depth about the fact that he and Christine were getting divorced, that the feelings weren't there, etc. It seems that this second update was less frequently shown and perhaps never or seldom shown on Lifetime(?) Kane, are you reading this?

The "Update" I've always seen (on Lifetime) was the one that actually shows the reunion between Craig and Christine, and shows various shots of them walking around together to which Craig says that there was nothing there because he can't remember anything. I've never seen the "basic" update.

I vaguely remember the one where they reunite and it did seem like such BS, like he didn't even try to "remember" or like he even cared. You'd think if someone really had amnesia they'd be desperate to remember, especially realizing that someone really loved them and had been traveling the country and paying for television broadcasts in order to find them.

Maybe we don't know for certain if she was wrong like many of the cases already mentioned, but what about the waitress that thought she saw Audrey Moate in the diner drinking coffee? I've never thought that was very likely.

Speaking of diners, what about the waitress that thought she saw Anthonette Cayedito and found that note under her plate after she left?

The Dede Rosenthal case- that lady was way wrong! But it seemed to me that she was being very honest; I think it was just a case of mistaken identity rather than pretense.

I hoped it was real, but was Leonard Dirickson really "hanging out" dancing in a bar six months after his disappearance? Unlikely.

Maybe we don't know for certain if she was wrong like many of the cases already mentioned, but what about the waitress that thought she saw Audrey Moate in the diner drinking coffee? I've never thought that was very likely.

Speaking of diners, what about the waitress that thought she saw Anthonette Cayedito and found that note under her plate after she left?

Hmmm, good one. Given that this was several years after the abduction, mistaken identity would have been easy, but I know there was a note left on the napkin and I always assumed the girl in the diner identified herself as Anthonette. Do you remember what the napkin said?

I'd forgotten that there were a couple of unconfirmed sightings of Angela Hammond in the months after she disappeared, and at least one witness who claimed she saw Cynthia Britto alive three months after her disappearance.

Sadly, I think those sightings are mistaken as I don't think either of them lived very long after their abduction.

Hmmm, good one. Given that this was several years after the abduction, mistaken identity would have been easy, but I know there was a note left on the napkin and I always assumed the girl in the diner identified herself as Anthonette. Do you remember what the napkin said?
All it said (according to the reenactment) was : "Help me! Call police."

The girl looked Native American and that's probably why the Cayedito connection was made.

The witnesses who claimed to have seen Elizabeth Campbell in the company of an Asian man IMO were all mistaken.

Yeah the amnesia case is weird. Funny how no one ever gets amnesia and ends up in Wyoming. I'd end up in Key West too if I was trying to get out of a marriage. I wouldn't doubt if he made a trip or two to Orlando for the heck of it. I'll bet he remembered where Walt Disney World was :D

Okay some other ones. Anthonette Cayedito was mentioned. Two things happened in that story. First off, the girl in the restaurant. Could it have been her? I find it unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility. Either way, that kid was desperate for SOMETHING. And then the phone call. Her mother listened to the tape recording and swore it was her daughter. Now, think about this for a second. When a close family member calls your home do they even bother telling you who it is? No, because you recognize their voice in an instant. Its unique. So this is why I feel her mother is correct in this instant. I hear my one year old son cry in a room full of babies and I can pick him out. Why? Because I am a parent. It would be even more unique if your child is older. I get the feeling that WAS Anthonette.


Elizabeth Campbell. I have had discussions on here before about how the two gas stations attendants (from seperate stores) were wrong in identifying her. But the kicker is, these two eyewitness accounts were so precise. Both parties described her the exact same way. The same body language, the same man with her, the feeling as if she was being controlled and not allowed to talk. I just don't think BOTH of them are wrong. Besides, abductors have to get gas eventually don't they? Would you leave her in the car alone? I wouldn't, and this was before the days when you could pay at the pump.

Okay some other ones. Anthonette Cayedito was mentioned. Two things happened in that story. First off, the girl in the restaurant. Could it have been her? I find it unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility. Either way, that kid was desperate for SOMETHING.

This has always been one of the most interesting parts of the story to me. If you read the "Charley Project" page for Anthonette, the police now believe that she is dead (most likely killed shortly after being abducted). So if the girl in the restaurant wasn't Anthonette, who was she? Was she really in danger? Was she abducted by this couple?

This has always been one of the most interesting parts of the story to me. If you read the "Charley Project" page for Anthonette, the police now believe that she is dead (most likely killed shortly after being abducted). So if the girl in the restaurant wasn't Anthonette, who was she? Was she really in danger? Was she abducted by this couple?

Well the cops can be wrong too. We have to take that possibility into account. But yeah, who the heck WAS that girl? It could be a number of things. She could have been abused, she could have been a rebellious teen with actual good parents just causing trouble, she could have been pulling a prank or she could have been Anthonette. Very gutsy for the abductors to bring her out in public like that but then again look at Elizabeth Smart. She was wide open to the public. Sometimes the abductors get cocky, confident or they just flat out know the abductee won't say a word.

Okay, I have always paused for a minute when that picture of Tara Calico pops up. I know the idea is that the picture is NOT her. I'm not so sure though. For starters that is a haunting picture that will keep you up nights. A teenage girl and a younger boy tied and gagged in what looks like a vehicle. If that's a prank how can it be over 20 years and no one has come forward? You'd think someone would recognize the kids from school or something if its just kids fooling around. But no one has ever come forward.

That leads you to ask two questions. Was that Tara? And if not, WHO was it? I just don't think it was a prank to begin with. Those kids look petrified. And that isn't the best picture in the world either. They seem to dismiss it as not being Tara based on the way her nose is shaped. Look, I don't know about you, but I look a little different in a school picture with my hair combed than if I were tied up, gagged and held against my will with my hair a mess. For me, I at least see the similarities between the two.

Apparently, the girl has a birthmark on her leg and so did Tara, leading Tara's mother to believe in the picture. I think the girl does look an awful lot like her around the eyes, judging by the first picture UM shows of Tara, not the one they use side-by-side with the Polaroid.

What's the name of the young woman involved in a car crash in Montana who wandered into the wilderness and was spotted by waitresses and truck drivers? I always thought she died on the prairie.

Patricia Meehan.

yeah

I am not sure this counts as a witness since it was a mysterious phone call but what about those creepy phone calls saying Judith Hymes was alive?

why would someone call the cops and say a woman missing for two decades was alive when she wasn't? Thats extremely bizarre. I guess its possible it could be someone who was simply mistaken.

I think the caller was mistaken too.

It took me a good hour to get through this thread. I had to rewatch some segments to make the connection and the AJ one wasn't familiar at all. After I rewatched the segments, I searched for threads around here for more details on the cases. There goes my day :p

Yeah the amnesia case is weird. Funny how no one ever gets amnesia and ends up in Wyoming. I'd end up in Key West too if I was trying to get out of a marriage. I wouldn't doubt if he made a trip or two to Orlando for the heck of it. I'll bet he remembered where Walt Disney World was :D

Okay some other ones. Anthonette Cayedito was mentioned. Two things happened in that story. First off, the girl in the restaurant. Could it have been her? I find it unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility. Either way, that kid was desperate for SOMETHING. And then the phone call. Her mother listened to the tape recording and swore it was her daughter. Now, think about this for a second. When a close family member calls your home do they even bother telling you who it is? No, because you recognize their voice in an instant. Its unique. So this is why I feel her mother is correct in this instant. I hear my one year old son cry in a room full of babies and I can pick him out. Why? Because I am a parent. It would be even more unique if your child is older. I get the feeling that WAS Anthonette.


Elizabeth Campbell. I have had discussions on here before about how the two gas stations attendants (from seperate stores) were wrong in identifying her. But the kicker is, these two eyewitness accounts were so precise. Both parties described her the exact same way. The same body language, the same man with her, the feeling as if she was being controlled and not allowed to talk. I just don't think BOTH of them are wrong. Besides, abductors have to get gas eventually don't they? Would you leave her in the car alone? I wouldn't, and this was before the days when you could pay at the pump.

What gets me about this case is she had the chance to escape.. In the segment, she went into the gas station alone.. she couldve easily asked the attendant to call the police or tell them she was in danger

What gets me about this case is she had the chance to escape.. In the segment, she went into the gas station alone.. she couldve easily asked the attendant to call the police or tell them she was in danger

This is one of the reasons I don't believe the woman seen was Elizabeth. She had ample opportunities to seek help (or scream for help when she was seen with her "abductor") yet she never did.

Well the cops can be wrong too. We have to take that possibility into account. But yeah, who the heck WAS that girl? It could be a number of things. She could have been abused, she could have been a rebellious teen with actual good parents just causing trouble, she could have been pulling a prank or she could have been Anthonette. Very gutsy for the abductors to bring her out in public like that but then again look at Elizabeth Smart. She was wide open to the public. Sometimes the abductors get cocky, confident or they just flat out know the abductee won't say a word.
yeah,I wonder about that.The way the girl was sitting at the table/booth (don't recall which one) leads me to believe she was with her legit parents or caregivers,tho she might have been abused.(big IF there).someone who'd kidnapped her would likely have her either sitting on the inside of the table,or in between the two in the booth.she seemed to have too much freedom to be able to up and run off for me to think she'd been abducted.JMO tho.

What gets me about this case is she had the chance to escape.. In the segment, she went into the gas station alone.. she couldve easily asked the attendant to call the police or tell them she was in danger

"Say one word and I'll get someone to cut your mother's throat."

Or something along those lines. We have seen actual pictures of Elizabeth Smart in public with a veil and she didn't scream for help. It could be a case of the Stockholm Syndrome. Or just old fashioned fear plain and simple. Those eyewitnesses who claim to have seen Elizabeth Campbell could be wrong, but what if they aren't?

"Say one word and I'll get someone to cut your mother's throat."

Or something along those lines. We have seen actual pictures of Elizabeth Smart in public with a veil and she didn't scream for help. It could be a case of the Stockholm Syndrome. Or just old fashioned fear plain and simple. Those eyewitnesses who claim to have seen Elizabeth Campbell could be wrong, but what if they aren't?

Are we to believe that there is some nefarious organization out there picking up young women, forcing them into prostitution and God knows what else, who just so happened to come across Elizabeth Campbell who coincidentally just got into a fight with her boyfriend which resulted in her walking home alone at midnight? I just don't buy it. For one, if such an organization does in fact exist, where are all of the other missing women that they abducted and forced into prostitution? And what happens when the women get older? Do they kill the women when they become to old? Why haven't any of these girls escaped and came forward exposing this organization? I just don't believe any of that nonsense about forced prostitution rings. I think it's along the same lines of Satanic Panic that went on in the 80's. She was taken from her family/friends/relatives/etc. and it was only six days from the day that she was reported missing that these eyewitnesses claimed to have seen her. I don't think it's that long for "Stockholm Syndrome" to kick in. Not to mention Elizabeth Smart was a child when she was abducted. Elizabeth Campbell was 18. A child is much easier to maniuplate over an adult. The last eyewitness (think her name was "Virgie") who claims to have seen Elizabeth saw her alone, without the company of the "scary Asian guy". They almost ran into one another as Virgie was entering and Elizabeth was leaving. Now imagine if this really was Elizabeth Campbell for a second. Your captors send you into a convenience store, alone, to buy supplies for them. She had ample time and several opportunities to get help. She could have told the cashier to get the plates off of the car she was with because she needed help, she could have written a note and handed it to the cashier or another patron in the store, and she certainly could have signaled or reached out to Virgie as she was leaving the store. But none of this was done, which makes me think Virgie (and the other eyewitnesses) saw someone other than Elizabeth Campbell.

Are we to believe that there is some nefarious organization out there picking up young women, forcing them into prostitution and God knows what else, who just so happened to come across Elizabeth Campbell who coincidentally just got into a fight with her boyfriend which resulted in her walking home alone at midnight? I just don't buy it. For one, if such an organization does in fact exist, where are all of the other missing women that they abducted and forced into prostitution? And what happens when the women get older? Do they kill the women when they become to old? Why haven't any of these girls escaped and came forward exposing this organization? I just don't believe any of that nonsense about forced prostitution rings. I think it's along the same lines of Satanic Panic that went on in the 80's. She was taken from her family/friends/relatives/etc. and it was only six days from the day that she was reported missing that these eyewitnesses claimed to have seen her. I don't think it's that long for "Stockholm Syndrome" to kick in. Not to mention Elizabeth Smart was a child when she was abducted. Elizabeth Campbell was 18. A child is much easier to maniuplate over an adult. The last eyewitness (think her name was "Virgie") who claims to have seen Elizabeth saw her alone, without the company of the "scary Asian guy". They almost ran into one another as Virgie was entering and Elizabeth was leaving. Now imagine if this really was Elizabeth Campbell for a second. Your captors send you into a convenience store, alone, to buy supplies for them. She had ample time and several opportunities to get help. She could have told the cashier to get the plates off of the car she was with because she needed help, she could have written a note and handed it to the cashier or another patron in the store, and she certainly could have signaled or reached out to Virgie as she was leaving the store. But none of this was done, which makes me think Virgie (and the other eyewitnesses) saw someone other than Elizabeth Campbell.

You might be right. That is one heck of a gamble for a captor to do that but like I said above there could have been threats made. Maybe if she felt she complied she would be let go. I don't know for sure. Some captors are pretty cocky and confident. But whether or not those eyewitnesses saw Elizabeth or not I truly do believe there are prostitution rings out there that capture women. Look at the girl who went missing from the boat (her name escapes me). A cruise doesn't get a reputation from capturing women and using them for sex unless its happened before. And who knows, maybe she just fell out of the boat accidentally but the point remains is I believe there are underground places where these women are. Not a whole lot of them, but they do exist just because we cannot see them doesn't mean they aren't there.

I think that the witness who said he saw David Dowaliby (and pointed out his large nose) in the vicinity of where Jaclyn was later found is most definitely wrong and stupid.

It was said to be a pitch black night out and that the witness was standing a fair distance away from whoever or whatever he saw, so I seriously doubt that this person really was able to be specifically sure of what he saw.

I think that the witness who said he saw David Dowaliby (and pointed out his large nose) in the vicinity of where Jaclyn was later found is most definitely wrong and stupid.

It was said to be a pitch black night out and that the witness was standing a fair distance away from whoever or whatever he saw, so I seriously doubt that this person really was able to be specifically sure of what he saw.

I'm amazed that that guy wasn't ripped to shreds by Dowaliby's defense attorney while he was cross-examining him.

I'm amazed that that guy wasn't ripped to shreds by Dowaliby's defense attorney while he was cross-examining him.

He certainly should have been, and during the segment, Robert Stack mentioned something to the effect that, after Jaclyn was found, the entire town suddenly seemed to turn against the Dowalibys, so I would think that anybody who even thought that they had dirt on the Dowalibys would jump at an opportunity to go public with it.

Another thing that troubles me about that case is how prosecutors seemed sure that the basement break-in was staged due to the lack of anything below the window being disturbed. I would think that if a burglar or kidnapper was going to enter a house in that manner, he would probably very carefully and quietly ease himself through and would also look down at the surroundings before landing on the floor, because if he were to land on anything (or anybody), that almost certainly would cause a hell of a disturbance, waking up everybody in the house.

I think that the witness who said he saw David Dowaliby (and pointed out his large nose) in the vicinity of where Jaclyn was later found is most definitely wrong and stupid.

It was said to be a pitch black night out and that the witness was standing a fair distance away from whoever or whatever he saw, so I seriously doubt that this person really was able to be specifically sure of what he saw.

That guy probably was wrong. However, something has always been fishy about this case with Dowaliby. Maybe he's innocent but maybe he's also gotten away with murder. Just so many convenient things add up to the point where it was a flawless abduction/murder. And I mean FLAWLESS! First off, the grandmother wasn't home that night when she usually was. How an intruder would have known about this makes you think it was either an inside job or a very, very close friend who knew about this. Even then, there is always the chance the grandmother comes home so why take that chance?

Secondly no one heard a noise at all. A kid is abducted right from her bedroom in the middle of the night and no one hears a scream, a skirmish, or even the front door (assuming that's the way they left) closed behind them. Both parents and a little brother are in that house and hear NOTHING.

Lastly, why take her from there? There isn't a much easier way to abduct her like when she's walking home from school? This was the late 1980s, kids were always by themselves at this time, there wasn't the same level of paranoia as today. She could have been at a park even.

I just don't think someone intruded into that home and took her and killed her when so many easier methods could have been done. Does that mean David did it? Maybe not, but I have never ever ruled him out and to be he is still the #1 suspect.

That guy probably was wrong. However, something has always been fishy about this case with Dowaliby. Maybe he's innocent but maybe he's also gotten away with murder. Just so many convenient things add up to the point where it was a flawless abduction/murder. And I mean FLAWLESS! First off, the grandmother wasn't home that night when she usually was. How an intruder would have known about this makes you think it was either an inside job or a very, very close friend who knew about this. Even then, there is always the chance the grandmother comes home so why take that chance?

Secondly no one heard a noise at all. A kid is abducted right from her bedroom in the middle of the night and no one hears a scream, a skirmish, or even the front door (assuming that's the way they left) closed behind them. Both parents and a little brother are in that house and hear NOTHING.

Lastly, why take her from there? There isn't a much easier way to abduct her like when she's walking home from school? This was the late 1980s, kids were always by themselves at this time, there wasn't the same level of paranoia as today. She could have been at a park even.

I just don't think someone intruded into that home and took her and killed her when so many easier methods could have been done. Does that mean David did it? Maybe not, but I have never ever ruled him out and to be he is still the #1 suspect.
Have you ever heard the theory about the uncle being the killer? I forget where it was mentioned, but apparently he made a drunken confession and a lot of the signs point to him. He would be a lot closer to the family, know about the basement, and the child may very well have trusted him. Maybe he said he was taking her somewhere fun but she had to be quiet or something along those lines.

I think this was the brother of her biological father, but I'm drawing a blank. Where has this theory been mentioned? I don't recall it on UM.

Have you ever heard the theory about the uncle being the killer? I forget where it was mentioned, but apparently he made a drunken confession and a lot of the signs point to him. He would be a lot closer to the family, know about the basement, and the child may very well have trusted him. Maybe he said he was taking her somewhere fun but she had to be quiet or something along those lines.

I think this was the brother of her biological father, but I'm drawing a blank. Where has this theory been mentioned? I don't recall it on UM.

Yes. There was an update that, judging from the background music and the sound of Robert Stack's voice, I'm guessing was probably filmed shortly after the original broadcast, but for some reason, it was only shown when the Dowaliby story was re-incorporated into one of the 2001-02 episodes made exclusively for Lifetime. As far as I know, Lifetime never showed it before that, despite repeated broadcasts of the segment in its original 1992 format.

Anyway, I do think that the uncle could have had something to do with it, however, it was mentioned during the update that, despite this revelation, there were no immediate plans to file new charges in the case, and I read on the UM Wiki website that the theory of the uncle being involved never really took off due to a general lack of evidence against him. In any case, I've never thought David Dowaliby to be guilty, especially considering the apparent lack of a reason why the crime was committed, because, at least from the information we can can garner from the segment, there certainly didn't seem to be anything about David Dowaliby that might lead me to believe that he would have a reason for killing his daughter.

Yes. There was an update that, judging from the background music and the sound of Robert Stack's voice, I'm guessing was probably filmed shortly after the original broadcast, but for some reason, it was only shown when the Dowaliby story was re-incorporated into one of the 2001-02 episodes made exclusively for Lifetime. As far as I know, Lifetime never showed it before that, despite repeated broadcasts of the segment in its original 1992 format.

Anyway, I do think that the uncle could have had something to do with it, however, it was mentioned during the update that, despite this revelation, there were no immediate plans to file new charges in the case, and I read on the UM Wiki website that the theory of the uncle being involved never really took off due to a general lack of evidence against him. In any case, I've never thought David Dowaliby to be guilty, especially considering the apparent lack of a reason why the crime was committed, because, at least from the information we can can garner from the segment, there certainly didn't seem to be anything about David Dowaliby that might lead me to believe that he would have a reason for killing his daughter.
Now that you mention it, I do remember that brief update. Also, they made a movie about the case called "Gone in the Night" and I remember them showing that theory, but I wondered how much was based in fact. The real Cynthia and David had a cameo at the end and asked for people to give information.

Maybe we don't know for certain if she was wrong like many of the cases already mentioned, but what about the waitress that thought she saw Audrey Moate in the diner drinking coffee? I've never thought that was very likely.


Absolutely. I think the backwoods guy totally killed her and agree with the investigator that it was probably a sex crime. The woman in the diner was probably just a lookalike who was addled by the waitresses staring and talking about her.

I may be in the minority here, but I actually think the witness who claims to have seen Al Henderson and Jean Moore was actually right.

Are we to believe that there is some nefarious organization out there picking up young women, forcing them into prostitution and God knows what else, who just so happened to come across Elizabeth Campbell who coincidentally just got into a fight with her boyfriend which resulted in her walking home alone at midnight? I just don't buy it. For one, if such an organization does in fact exist, where are all of the other missing women that they abducted and forced into prostitution? And what happens when the women get older? Do they kill the women when they become to old? Why haven't any of these girls escaped and came forward exposing this organization? I just don't believe any of that nonsense about forced prostitution rings. I think it's along the same lines of Satanic Panic that went on in the 80's. She was taken from her family/friends/relatives/etc. and it was only six days from the day that she was reported missing that these eyewitnesses claimed to have seen her. I don't think it's that long for "Stockholm Syndrome" to kick in. Not to mention Elizabeth Smart was a child when she was abducted. Elizabeth Campbell was 18. A child is much easier to maniuplate over an adult. The last eyewitness (think her name was "Virgie") who claims to have seen Elizabeth saw her alone, without the company of the "scary Asian guy". They almost ran into one another as Virgie was entering and Elizabeth was leaving. Now imagine if this really was Elizabeth Campbell for a second. Your captors send you into a convenience store, alone, to buy supplies for them. She had ample time and several opportunities to get help. She could have told the cashier to get the plates off of the car she was with because she needed help, she could have written a note and handed it to the cashier or another patron in the store, and she certainly could have signaled or reached out to Virgie as she was leaving the store. But none of this was done, which makes me think Virgie (and the other eyewitnesses) saw someone other than Elizabeth Campbell.

It's hard to completely understand what is going through a person's head who has been abducted. And hopefully none of us will ever HAVE go through it. But one common threat that many abductors seem to use against their victims is threats to their family members. We heard about the abductions of Jaycee Dugard and Elizabeth Smart and so many people asked the same question, why didn't they run when they had so many opportunities to escape over the years? Because their abductors have them paralyzed with fear that they'll hurt or kill their family members if they try to escape.

I'm sure this tactic is easier to use on a child but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to be used with some success on an older teenager as well. Although she wasn't kidnapped, Annette Burnside was 19 when she first left Jim, and he was able to get her back home by threatening to hurt her family. So she went back and stayed married to the devil for several years until her mother told her once and for all not to stay married to him because of us. If he kills us, then he kills us. But you can't live like this any longer. Never underestimate how powerful threats against your loved ones can be.

Elizabeth and Annette seemed kind of alike to me. Both quiet, painfully shy and easy to keep under control. That's why I think the sightings of Elizabeth could be legit. I never questioned them, not even the one where Elizabeth was allowed to go into the gas station alone. Look at the shooting of "Debbie" from Fayettville, NC. Her abductor/attacker walked into a shop and left her alone in her car, where she could have easily escaped. But he told her he would kill everyone inside if she left, so she stayed put. Fear can have that hold over you.

Elizabeth and Annette seemed kind of alike to me. Both quiet, painfully shy and easy to keep under control. That's why I think the sightings of Elizabeth could be legit. I never questioned them, not even the one where Elizabeth was allowed to go into the gas station alone. Look at the shooting of "Debbie" from Fayettville, NC. Her abductor/attacker walked into a shop and left her alone in her car, where she could have easily escaped. But he told her he would kill everyone inside if she left, so she stayed put. Fear can have that hold over you.

Here's my problems with the first two sightings. For one, they happened 85 miles away from where Elizabeth disappeared. Which (in the state of Texas) really isn't that far away from where she was last seen. Plus, the first two sightings happened within the same local area of one another. Why would this abductor be that brazen to take her in public several different places? The way he was acting was enough to get the attention of both store clerks, what would have happened if a patron noticed and called the police? Not to mention that both clerks simply said that the woman they saw, "kept her head down." IMHO, they saw the flier, remembered the Asian woman they saw who was acting weird and being controlled and instantly though "ah-ha", that's got to be Elizabeth Campbell and she's being held against her will. I just find it very odd that less than a week after being abducted, her abductor decides to parade her around an ice cream shoppe and a convenience store.

Here's my problems with the first two sightings. For one, they happened 85 miles away from where Elizabeth disappeared. Which (in the state of Texas) really isn't that far away from where she was last seen. Plus, the first two sightings happened within the same local area of one another. Why would this abductor be that brazen to take her in public several different places? The way he was acting was enough to get the attention of both store clerks, what would have happened if a patron noticed and called the police? Not to mention that both clerks simply said that the woman they saw, "kept her head down." IMHO, they saw the flier, remembered the Asian woman they saw who was acting weird and being controlled and instantly though "ah-ha", that's got to be Elizabeth Campbell and she's being held against her will. I just find it very odd that less than a week after being abducted, her abductor decides to parade her around an ice cream shoppe and a convenience store.

I don't doubt that the sightings could have been some random depressed looking Asian girl and not Elizabeth. But I also don't doubt that the sightings could have been legit either. She vanished in 1988, long before Amber alerts or news media covered the stories within hours of someone disappearing. Even today, some kidnapping stories get nation wide coverage while others aren't even known throughout an entire state. I guess it's impossible to know for sure in Elizabeth's case how big a story this was. But I got the impression that it wasn't that big since all the sightings were reported through missing posters that the family worked so hard to put throughout the state of Texas while the police couldn't come up with anything.

Again, I don't rule out either scenario. I just think it was easier to kidnap someone in the 80's than it is today. Kidnappers can be brazen and stupid enough to be out in public with their victims. It's not like that has never happened.

Again, I don't rule out either scenario. I just think it was easier to kidnap someone in the 80's than it is today. Kidnappers can be brazen and stupid enough to be out in public with their victims. It's not like that has never happened.

I understand that kidnappers can be stupid and brazen, and also that they have taken their victims out in public in the past. However, in the case of Elizabeth Smart, the man who abducted her (Brian David Mitchell) had met the Smart family and interacted with them. In the case of Elizabeth Campbell, no one knew she was going to get into a fight with her boyfriend that night, get a ride to a convenience store, and then proceed to walk home. It's almost too coincidental that some random psycho happens upon her and decides to abduct her, and then keep her alive. I think she was killed shortly after she was abducted, and the purse was ditched 180 miles away as the killer fled from the area.

The Kimberly Pandelios case - "Jeff" off-road enthusiast. He seemed to be projecting a fetish of coming strikingly close to saving a pretty young blonde. :rolleyes:

I get annoyed with the witnesses who insist they saw someone. Whenever you hear "I just know that girl was Wanda Jean Mays," or whoever, you inevitably find out that that victim was actually killed the day they disappeared.

The trucker who thought he gave a ride to Gale Delano, I actually felt he was accurate, but I guess not.

Another one who annoyed me was in the case of the woman who disappeared from her apartment, and the witness claimed to have seen her in a bar twice over a one year period, once with dyed blond hair, but come to find out the girl had been killed by the maintenance man the day she disappeared.

So many people just look alike that I would find it hard to know if I was right. Look at Kari Lynn, for example. Each picture of her looks different, too, so you wouldn't know if you had that person because of how looks change, people look similar (like the girl at the concert).

I believe Robert (Curt) Borton's family were wrong in insisting that they kept seeing him around the DC area years after he was allegedly killed in Vietnam.

I believe Robert (Curt) Borton's family were wrong in insisting that they kept seeing him around the DC area years after he was allegedly killed in Vietnam.

I agree. I think they were only believing what they wanted to believe because they could not (or perhaps would not) accept the fact that he had in fact been killed.

Mark Dennis' brother was the same way. Even when DNA confirmed that Mark was dead, his brother wouldn't back down.

Witnesses in the Don Kemp case:

The bartender who supposedly remembered serving him; it was never revealed in the segment as to how he could be certain it was Don who came to his bar.

His friend could have been mistaken, maybe someone playing a practical joke or a wrong number. Maybe there was another man named "Don" who lived in the trailer.

The trucker who thought he gave a ride to Gale Delano, I actually felt he was accurate, but I guess not.

Another one who annoyed me was in the case of the woman who disappeared from her apartment, and the witness claimed to have seen her in a bar twice over a one year period, once with dyed blond hair, but come to find out the girl had been killed by the maintenance man the day she disappeared.

I think if I hadn't already known what happened to Gail Delano before I first saw the segment I would've believed that eyewitness. It wasn't at all like he was making up a story; you could tell he definitely believed that was her.

I never believed the Dede Rosenthal witness either. I always thought she was probably well-meaning, though.


One that's been mentioned but I've never known what to make of was the guy who thought he saw Leonard Dirickson in that bar in Amarillo. I remember the investigator said he said something along the lines of "I'm from Elk City, I know Leonard Dirickson, and he's in here right now." Every reason I can think of for it to be incredible, I can think of a counter to it.

The miami serial rapist. The initial eye witness was way off and the cops messed up that case really bad and sent an innocent man to prison for several years. a number of eye witness accounts were taken into the court room and many witnesses were fabricated by the police. fortunately he was later cleared by DNA evidence. Might as well been off of an episode of dexter.

Was the witness in the Kimberly Pandelios case just projecting a fantasy?

Was the witness in the Kimberly Pandelios case just projecting a fantasy?

I didn't get that impression from what he said, but I wasn't looking at the segment with that in mind. I just had the feeling that he actually saw, or thought he saw her (or another woman). It seemed to me that he genuinely wanted to help. I'll have to look at the segment again with a more critical eye and see what I think about his explanations.

I didn't get that impression from what he said, but I wasn't looking at the segment with that in mind. I just had the feeling that he actually saw, or thought he saw her (or another woman). It seemed to me that he genuinely wanted to help. I'll have to look at the segment again with a more critical eye and see what I think about his explanations.

Thank you TracyLynnS. It seems to me that "Jeff" got the facts all wrong but I'm unsure if he was being sincere or not.

The sightings of Dan Wilson at the homeless shelter (they claimed to have his signature as well).

While it could have been as simple as "Jeff" (Brad Leon) witnessing a woman other than Kim Pandelios and misreading the situation, it always struck me as some kind of Deliverance style incident.

The call about seeing Amy Billig with bikers at the truck stop in Oklahoma was similar to Leonard Dirickson's sighting at the bar...seemingly more like a thoughtless prank, or a malicious intent to steer the investigation towards a voluntary disappearance.

The real what the **** circumstance was the phone calls after Don Kemp's disappearance. Don likely wandered out onto the prairie of his own volition and died of exposure, but I don't automatically assume that the phone company was wrong in their records. The best speculation I can come up with is that someone obtained Don's address book at some point during his travels and indulged in some prank calls.

John Catchings, the "psychic" interviewed in the Sherry Eyerly segment fingered the wrong person, which led to his suicide.

How about the Veronica Jefferson case? Witnesses at the supermarket claimed to have seen her with a "clean-cut, bodybuilder-type" black male. Her killer, Alfredo Prieto, turned out to be El Salvadorian. Maybe it's still possible that she was seen with 2 men the night she died, as Robert Stack suggested. Perhaps she was hit on by some random black man at the supermarket and later came across Prieto and was raped and murdered by him. :confused:

How about the Veronica Jefferson case? Witnesses at the supermarket claimed to have seen her with a "clean-cut, bodybuilder-type" black male. Her killer, Alfredo Prieto, turned out to be El Salvadorian. Maybe it's still possible that she was seen with 2 men the night she died, as Robert Stack suggested. Perhaps she was hit on by some random black man at the supermarket and later came across Prieto and was raped and murdered by him. :confused:
Interestingly, the Raver/Fulton case (same killer) said a hair at the crime scene identified the killer as African-American. (Obviously, a mistake). Could the witnesses have just been mistaken and assumed that he was African-American because he had darker skin? I have friends who people assume to be of different ethnic/racial backgrounds because of their appearance. I haven't seen many pictures of this killer though, so maybe they were simply mistaken. This case is very disturbing and has some bizarre coincidences (a mistake in both the Jefferson and Fulton/Raver case about the killer being African-American instead of El Salvadorian? Red shoes on both women? Whoa.)

Another case: I want to believe it was Amy Billig who bought vegetarian soup at the convenience store, but would the bikers really have brought her in like that, out in the open?

If the woman who thought she saw AJ Beaux trying to sell her a fish, was the man who saw him being forced into a car right?

One that's been mentioned but I've never known what to make of was the guy who thought he saw Leonard Dirickson in that bar in Amarillo. I remember the investigator said he said something along the lines of "I'm from Elk City, I know Leonard Dirickson, and he's in here right now." Every reason I can think of for it to be incredible, I can think of a counter to it.

This one! UM said the waitress at the bar corroborated the witness' story, but did this waitress know Leonard? Why would Leonard be "hanging out" (one of my favorite Robert Stack quotes) at a bar? And the police, who usually do not put much stake in eyewitness testimony, seem to believe this one. It gives me chills and I don't know what to think of it either.

This one! UM said the waitress at the bar corroborated the witness' story, but did this waitress know Leonard? Why would Leonard be "hanging out" (one of my favorite Robert Stack quotes) at a bar? And the police, who usually do not put much stake in eyewitness testimony, seem to believe this one. It gives me chills and I don't know what to think of it either.

Totally.


RE: Alfredo Prieto and the ethnicity error--Human hair is often analyzed and categorized by crime labs as "Caucasoid", "Negroid", or "Mongoloid"--which are based on phenotype. It's not anywhere near accurate, at least not if one's attempting to narrow the hair down as belonging to an El Salvadorian. It won't even narrow it down as belonging to a Hispanic. I once saw a Forensic Files episode about a murder in Anchorage, AK that demonstrated this. The killer's hair was found at the crime scene and determined to be "Mongoloid". Under that classification system, he could have been Japanese, Filipino, Samoan, Cheyenne, Chickasaw, or Thai. He turned out to be an Alaska Native.

So, LE probably deduced that given "Negroid" hair found at the Raver/Fulton scene and (after the DNA match was made) the testimony of the witnesses in the Veronica Jefferson case, they needed to be looking for a black male. I have seen many photos of Prieto, and I can see how he could be easily mistaken as a light-complected black person. A guy that used to work for me had parents that were from different "races" and used to joke that he was an "ethnic chameleon". When he lived in south Texas, he said a police officer who had pulled him over for speeding immediately addressed him in Spanish, probably mistaking him for a recent immigrant from Central or South America. He identifies as African American.

she was seen with 2 men the night she died, as Robert Stack suggested. Perhaps she was hit on by some random black man at the supermarket and later came across Prieto and was raped and murdered by him. :confused:

I think she was in fact hit on by some random guy, because that police sketch (of the black man seen at the grocery store) looked nothing like Prieto.

Pretty much every eyewitness ever.

I totally agree on Robert Borton. Clearly a case of the family wishing badly their son hadn't died. All this stuff about secret missions and all that...sounds like something out of a bad spy movie.

I don't buy the story Anthonette Cayedito's sister brought up about an Uncle Joe abducting her sister in the night. The biggest reason: she waited five years to tell this. I could understand sitting on this bombshell for a little while, but five years?! I don't believe she's conscienciously lying, though. My theory is simple: naturally in the aftermath of the abduction, there's a lot of pressure on all her siblings to tell the police anything that might help and Anthonette's sister, unconsciously wove together something she'd seen in a movie or something. I do believe that she and her family believe her story is real but it's just too fantastic for me to except. It sounds like something that happens in a TV movie, not real life. I agree with those who theorize that Anthonette was probably killed shortly after she was abducted.

I don't buy the story Anthonette Cayedito's sister brought up about an Uncle Joe abducting her sister in the night. The biggest reason: she waited five years to tell this. I could understand sitting on this bombshell for a little while, but five years?! I don't believe she's conscienciously lying, though. My theory is simple: naturally in the aftermath of the abduction, there's a lot of pressure on all her siblings to tell the police anything that might help and Anthonette's sister, unconsciously wove together something she'd seen in a movie or something. I do believe that she and her family believe her story is real but it's just too fantastic for me to except. It sounds like something that happens in a TV movie, not real life. I agree with those who theorize that Anthonette was probably killed shortly after she was abducted.

To be fair, they clearly said that they interviewed her again. If they had asked her a few weeks or months or a year later, she probably would have said something similar. Kids don't have the same perspective that an adult would and probably would not realize that the information they have is vital to an investigation. If the right questions aren't asked, kids can and will sit on information. It just wouldn't occur to the average kid to actively go to the police.

This is the one thats always stood out to me the most. She sounded so sure. But I always thought there was something fishy about it, considering when the girl who allegedly introduced them was contacted she claimed to be 'suffering from a memory lapse', I heard that and was like WTH? Thats either majorly unlucky or majorly convenient whichever way you want to look at it. I wonder if UM and possibly even the local authorities had a good idea the whole South Carolina scenario was BS and just stuck it in the show to dramatize the story a little?

Not to mention the letters from Flint, Michigan regarding Kari.

Totally bizarre. And unfortunate that Kari's family had to get their hopes up.

I was never sure whether to think the witness was lying for attention (she seemed so overly dramatic about it, addressing the camera) or whether some runaway was using the name of someone reported as missing, but if the girl who introduced them acted suspicious it sounds as if she was covering for a friend traveling under a false name.

UM never followed up on this, but I've always wondered if the woman who claimed that Edward Harold Bell attacked her in her home in the mid-1980s was mistaken. We eventually found out that Bell had fled the U.S. and was living as a businessman in Panama for years. I just can't see a wanted fugitive like him taking the risk of returning to Texas to break into some random woman's house. I have a feeling that she mistook some other perp for Bell.

UM never followed up on this, but I've always wondered if the woman who claimed that Edward Harold Bell attacked her in her home in the mid-1980s was mistaken. We eventually found out that Bell had fled the U.S. and was living as a businessman in Panama for years. I just can't see a wanted fugitive like him taking the risk of returning to Texas to break into some random woman's house. I have a feeling that she mistook some other perp for Bell.

You're referring to the woman in the very beginning of the Edward Harold Bell segment, yes? I think he attacks her while she's in the bathroom?

That's an interesting comment. I never stopped to think she may have been incorrect...

You're referring to the woman in the very beginning of the Edward Harold Bell segment, yes? I think he attacks her while she's in the bathroom?

That's an interesting comment. I never stopped to think she may have been incorrect...

Yes, the attack took place several years after the Larry Dickens murder and then a couple of days later, the victim recognized Bell's photo in the paper when they did a story on Texas' most wanted fugitives.

As far as I know, after Bell was captured, they never did a follow-up to confirm if he was the same guy who broke into that woman's house, but since he was living under a new identity in Panama, I have my doubts that he would have returned to Texas. I think the attacker was someone else.

Pretty much every eyewitness ever.
Interesting comment because eye witness ident is very difficult. How short would a thread titled eye witnesses that were right be?

Wendy von Hubben and Jesse Howell? Her parents said it was her in the video but who knows for sure.

I remember this. Wendy ran away from home with her boyfriend. Eventually her boyfriend's body was found, but hers wasn't, so naturally her parents had hope that she was still alive. When they saw the convenience store video, they swore up and down that the girl in that video was their daughter. But later, Wendy's body was discovered not too far from where her boyfriend's was and it was concluded that she was killed not too long after he was. She's listed on the roster of Angel Resendiz's, aka The Railway Killer, victim list. :(

That's the case I think of when people are talking about eyewitnesses and whether they can be trusted or not. First of all, as many people will tell you, people are hard to describe, even people you know, never mind some stranger you saw for a split second. The most distinguishing feature on my face is that I wear glasses, but that doesn't narrow things down much. It's not like I have a huge deformity or facial scar that would make me instantly recognizable. Plus, as always, I can't help but think that this is a classic case of confirmation bias. Her parents wanted so badly for their daughter to be alive that they zeroed in on the features in the video that lined up with their daughter and ignored the stuff that didn't and wound up unintentionally deluding themselves.

Eyewitness testimony is most of the time wrong. We had a case here which the woman that was raped positively pointed out the man in a line up that was her attacker. He spent 25 years in prison after which DNA proved he was innocent. I think alot of women and men look similar but in fact are not the same person. This man was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and the police picked him up. I also believe that if alot of the Jane Does and John Does that have buried in past years in unmarked graves DNA was run in a old missing persons database alot of these missing cases would be solved. There are hundreds of them unclaimed.

I've always had this bad feeling about Elizabeth Campbell's boyfriend. Why I don't know. But I know that almost always missing persons cases aren't just by some random stranger. I never believed she was the woman seen by multiple people. If you are going to abduct someone for slave traffic you aren't going to take them in public especially if they aren't bought from overseas (meaning no one looking for them in the states).

First of all, as many people will tell you, people are hard to describe, even people you know, never mind some stranger you saw for a split second.

Like the young man from Oregon abducted from a California ATM, where people swore he frequented a homeless shelter when he'd been dead all the time. :(

Also, in the Keri Lynn Nixon case, if someone was traveling under her name, that person had to look enough like her to fool the woman into thinking she'd seen her.

The witnesses in the Dede Rosenthal case.

I don't know if this qualifies as an "eyewitness" that was wrong, but this seems as good a place as any to bring this up...

I can't believe the lengths the UM segment on Amy Billig went to suggest that Amy may have survived into the 1990s and have been in England with a motorcycle gang. The entire crux of this argument was basically that an unnamed elderly British investigator claims he was approached by a biker and offered an American escort nicknamed "Mute" whom he never even saw, as he rejected the offer.

I remember when I was younger thinking that this had to have been Amy Billig. As an adult, I think the whole thing is laughable and absurd. Why would they think this prostitute nicknamed "Mute" was Amy lacking further corroboration? I also found it comical how the woman interviewed referred to herself and the guy as "good investigators" or something along those lines. If these are the kinds of connection they are drawing, I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

RE: Robert Borton--this one has to be one of the weirdest segments I've ever seen on UM. Of course, I don't believe Borton made it alive out of Vietnam; I think he was most likely KIA. What was so bizarre about it was the complicity between family members that had to have occurred--multiple people were telling these odd stories related to Borton supposedly being alive that just got bigger and bigger with each new story (remember the one about the guy being confronted outside work?). Again, I don't believe them at all, but it's really difficult for me to imagine a bunch of people coming up with these wild stories independently.

Additionally, I personally sense an undercurrent of stereotypes about Vietnam veterans that inform the Borton family's story. Being menaced from afar? Not wanting to approach this guy you definitely think is him because it could be "dangerous"? Come on.

RE: Robert Borton--this one has to be one of the weirdest segments I've ever seen on UM. Of course, I don't believe Borton made it alive out of Vietnam; I think he was most likely KIA. What was so bizarre about it was the complicity between family members that had to have occurred--multiple people were telling these odd stories related to Borton supposedly being alive that just got bigger and bigger with each new story (remember the one about the guy being confronted outside work?). Again, I don't believe them at all, but it's really difficult for me to imagine a bunch of people coming up with these wild stories independently.

Additionally, I personally sense an undercurrent of stereotypes about Vietnam veterans that inform the Borton family's story. Being menaced from afar? Not wanting to approach this guy you definitely think is him because it could be "dangerous"? Come on.
I kinda felt the same way. having met a lot of Vietnam vets myself they had it the worst of any war in the 20th century if you ask my opinion. and it's because they don't get a fair assessment of what they did and who they really are. they have dealt with the worst treatment. I think in this case it is very much like many of the other missing persons segments featured. you have a family holding out hope and likely truly believes that their loved one is alive, but their information is not credible and they are possibly victims of fraud as well. IIRC didn't the sister have the opportunity to confront the individual that she alleged was him, but opted not to? I found that strange. and the military top secret mission story really doesn't make sense. I may only recall one or two stories that seemed credible that UM ever featured.

I also found it comical how the woman interviewed referred to herself and the guy as "good investigators" or something along those lines. If these are the kinds of connection they are drawing, I'm sorry, I just don't see it.

What's amazing is that it took me me years to notice that Virginia Snyder, the female investigator featured in the Amy Billig segment, is the same investigator interviewed in the Bird Road Rapist final appeal segment! She was hired by Luis Diaz's defense team and came off really well in that segment, as she seemed to be working tirelessly to exonerate him. That's why it's bizarre that she would come across so badly during her other UM appearance with that outlandish theory about Amy being in England.

What's amazing is that it took me me years to notice that Virginia Snyder, the female investigator featured in the Amy Billig segment, is the same investigator interviewed in the Bird Road Rapist final appeal segment! She was hired by Luis Diaz's defense team and came off really well in that segment, as she seemed to be working tirelessly to exonerate him. That's why it's bizarre that she would come across so badly during her other UM appearance with that outlandish theory about Amy being in England.

Yes, you are absolutely correct.

Private investigator Virginia Snyder was featured in the Luis Diaz Final Appeal segment as well.

I wonder if Snyder did any work for Amy Bilig's mother, at any point, and that is where the connection came from? Perhaps she was following up leads regarding that specific biker gang that led to the U.K. and then heard this story form her investigator friend which coincided with her leads or information on the gang's travels.

I just can't believe that there wasn't more to this story.

I kinda felt the same way. having met a lot of Vietnam vets myself they had it the worst of any war in the 20th century if you ask my opinion. and it's because they don't get a fair assessment of what they did and who they really are. they have dealt with the worst treatment. I think in this case it is very much like many of the other missing persons segments featured. you have a family holding out hope and likely truly believes that their loved one is alive, but their information is not credible and they are possibly victims of fraud as well. IIRC didn't the sister have the opportunity to confront the individual that she alleged was him, but opted not to? I found that strange. and the military top secret mission story really doesn't make sense. I may only recall one or two stories that seemed credible that UM ever featured.

Yes. I agree 100%.

I also like how that Marine major that was interviewed was very even-toned and professional in his responses. He had to elaborate on some pretty ludicrous allegations IMO and did it in a very professional and respectful manner.

Now I felt like Mark Dennis might have had some validity when I saw it for the first time, but we know how that turned out unfortunately. :(

Those "secret mission" stories kind of kill me. The only case UM ever presented that really gave me pause was that of Paul Whipkey. I don't think he was recruited into any program, but I'm really at a loss for any inkling of why he disappeared.

I really feel for Curt Borton's family. They obviously believed he was still alive, despite the photos they produced which looked nothing like him. But, I don't think they were lying at all. I just think they were grasping at seemingly odd encounters and phasing it into their theory that Curt was alive and back in the States. For one, his father had the odd encounter with two men who wanted him to sign something changing his status from MIA to KIA, but he wouldn't. There's no way this man would make something like this up, IMO. Plus, he said the encounters escalated until he signed the document. This had to be a real encounter, because his father eventually received a check for over $40 grand. I think that was real.

I do think that after these encounters the Borton family started to note "mysterious" encounters and believe they were somehow related to Curt being alive. The cousin who thought he was being followed was probably paranoid, and either the man who accosted him at gunpoint had the wrong guy (unlikely, since he called him out by his name), or this guy just got held up and padded the story to make it seem more mysterious with relation to Curt. Then his sister starts seeing this guy around the DC area, and believes him to be Curt. She even writes his license plate down and they track it to a man who claims to know nothing about Curt. That should have been case closed. The guy probably looked a lot like Curt. It just wasn't him. Being that he was from Virginia, I don't find it all that odd that she encountered him multiple times.

Back when I was a kid, even though I've always thought the photos of the purported Curt Borton looked nothing like him, I thought the family had something to go on. But as an adult, there's just no way that Curt Borton was alive, or involved in some "top secret mission" involving bringing back Viet Nam vets to the US clandestinely. It's just a laughable premise. But I think the family was sincere in their beliefs.

ETA: Didn't Curt's father receive a telephone call from someone asking some personal information about Curt and when he answered he heard someone who sounded like Curt in the background say, "YES" or "yeah that's right"? I wonder if there were people who knew about the family's belief about Curt being alive who were trying to do some sort of an extortion scam on the family, playing on their belief that he was in fact still alive?

Yes. I agree 100%.

I also like how that Marine major that was interviewed was very even-toned and professional in his responses. He had to elaborate on some pretty ludicrous allegations IMO and did it in a very professional and respectful manner.

Now I felt like Mark Dennis might have had some validity when I saw it for the first time, but we know how that turned out unfortunately. :(

Those "secret mission" stories kind of kill me. The only case UM ever presented that really gave me pause was that of Paul Whipkey. I don't think he was recruited into any program, but I'm really at a loss for any inkling of why he disappeared. yes I forgot about the whipkey case. Def had some credible circumstances. There was also another CIA case with a double agent that got killed can't remember the name. It was Cold War related. Sorry to get off topic.

yes I forgot about the whipkey case. Def had some credible circumstances. There was also another CIA case with a double agent that got killed can't remember the name. It was Cold War related. Sorry to get off topic.

Oh I forgot about that one! That was Ralph Sigler. That one was pretty bizarre. His supervisor seemed pretty dismissive of anything other than a suicide, although he was pretty open about the work Sigler was doing at the time.

What about the eyewitnesses who thought they saw Lisa Marie Kimmell driving around? They almost certainly had to have been wrong, although both were pretty insistent that it was definitely her distinct Montana license plate on her brand-new black Honda they saw. I think one of the sightings was actually out of state as well.

I really feel for Curt Borton's family. They obviously believed he was still alive, despite the photos they produced which looked nothing like him. But, I don't think they were lying at all. I just think they were grasping at seemingly odd encounters and phasing it into their theory that Curt was alive and back in the States. For one, his father had the odd encounter with two men who wanted him to sign something changing his status from MIA to KIA, but he wouldn't. There's no way this man would make something like this up, IMO. Plus, he said the encounters escalated until he signed the document. This had to be a real encounter, because his father eventually received a check for over $40 grand. I think that was real.

I think there might be elements of the truth here, but perhaps not the full story. I personally have a really difficult time believing not that two men approached Borton's father about changing his son's status from MIA to KIA, but that it would be an "encounter" rather than a meeting with individuals who clearly identified themselves and the organization they represented (be that the DoD, or whomever).

I do think that after these encounters the Borton family started to note "mysterious" encounters and believe they were somehow related to Curt being alive. The cousin who thought he was being followed was probably paranoid, and either the man who accosted him at gunpoint had the wrong guy (unlikely, since he called him out by his name), or this guy just got held up and padded the story to make it seem more mysterious with relation to Curt. Then his sister starts seeing this guy around the DC area, and believes him to be Curt. She even writes his license plate down and they track it to a man who claims to know nothing about Curt. That should have been case closed. The guy probably looked a lot like Curt. It just wasn't him. Being that he was from Virginia, I don't find it all that odd that she encountered him multiple times.

Those were some utterly weird stories and they don't seem systematically conjured up to me, either. I find it hard to believe an entire family would come together to fabricate a bunch of bizarre tales about a missing family member without any real apparent benefit. I think you're probably right on, though. I think like Borton's father's story, there may be elements of truth in there, and the other aspects can be chalked up to wanting really, really badly to believe something is there that isn't.

I still do think the premise of Borton being a "dangerous" and therefore unapproachable Vietnam vet is simultaneously insulting and sad, but I recognize this was kind of a different time. I still ultimately never understood why his sister didn't just address the guy, however. I was with the daughter in the reenactment: just go talk to him, he's right there!

ETA: Didn't Curt's father receive a telephone call from someone asking some personal information about Curt and when he answered he heard someone who sounded like Curt in the background say, "YES" or "yeah that's right"? I wonder if there were people who knew about the family's belief about Curt being alive who were trying to do some sort of an extortion scam on the family, playing on their belief that he was in fact still alive?

I don't remember that part, although it's been a while since I've seen the segment. I think something similar happened in the Mark Dennis case with the bar encounter between Dennis' father and John King, the guy who relayed the POW camp "Preacher" story--that is, I think King might have been priming the situation for an opportunity to take advantage of the family.

Oh I forgot about that one! That was Ralph Sigler. That one was pretty bizarre. His supervisor seemed pretty dismissive of anything other than a suicide, although he was pretty open about the work Sigler was doing at the time.

What about the eyewitnesses who thought they saw Lisa Marie Kimmell driving around? They almost certainly had to have been wrong, although both were pretty insistent that it was definitely her distinct Montana license plate on her brand-new black Honda they saw. I think one of the sightings was actually out of state as well.
Yeah Lisa was strange because how do you miss that plate? Also she was seen north of Wyoming where she was killed? All
I can say is perhaps people lied about it?
Or they really thought they saw something they didn't. The only other explanation
Is they had
Their date wrong and she turned around for something.

That's a possibility, DallasTexan, that the witnesses might have subconsciously transposed things. It's not unheard of for that sort of thing to happen.

In the aftermath of the OKC bombing, they traced the serial number of the Ryder truck McVeigh used to a specific dealership. Dealer there said that he saw someone with McVeigh that day and obviously, law enforcement went all out to find the guy. Turned out the guy had been there the day before McVeigh was and could present receipts proving this and had nothing to do with the OKC bombing.

What probably happened was obviously in the aftermath of so massive a crime, there was a lot of pressure on the dealer to try and give whatever information he thought might be helpful. As a result, he unintentionally transposed some events in his mind.

That's a possibility, DallasTexan, that the witnesses might have subconsciously transposed things. It's not unheard of for that sort of thing to happen.

In the aftermath of the OKC bombing, they traced the serial number of the Ryder truck McVeigh used to a specific dealership. Dealer there said that he saw someone with McVeigh that day and obviously, law enforcement went all out to find the guy. Turned out the guy had been there the day before McVeigh was and could present receipts proving this and had nothing to do with the OKC bombing.

What probably happened was obviously in the aftermath of so massive a crime, there was a lot of pressure on the dealer to try and give whatever information he thought might be helpful. As a result, he unintentionally transposed some events in his mind.
Yeah that's a good point. And I was actually thinking that we don't know the time frame that these witnesses were dealing with. Maybe they saw her car in the past and thought that it was in the same time frame as her disappearance so they felt compelled to help. And of corse UM always did a good job of adding that extra twist.

IMO, the most obvious case of eyewitnesses lying/mistaken/saying anything to get on TV was the case of Dan Wilson. The people who ran the homeless shelter swore up and down he was there months after his car was found, yet in the update, Dan's body was found less than five miles from his car.

Almost every missing person story boasts witnesses who swear they saw Matthew Chase or Patricia Meehan. One is dead, the other likely dead.

Probably been stated already but my kneejerk reaction to the post topic was that guy who said he gave Gail Delano a ride months after her disappearance.

Almost every missing person story boasts witnesses who swear they saw Matthew Chase or Patricia Meehan. One is dead, the other likely dead.

What's weird is that IIRC, Robert Stack specifically stated that many of the eyewitness sightings of Patricia Meehan were "confirmed sightings", as if they knew with 100 % certainty that it was her. I wonder if they left out some information in the segment because I'm not sure what made them think the sightings of Patricia were so much more reliable than the numerous examples of mistaken eyewitness sightings which took place on the show.

Probably been stated already but my kneejerk reaction to the post topic was that guy who said he gave Gail Delano a ride months after her disappearance.

Also the trucker in the John Cheek segment.

I think it is easier for me to name the ones I actually DO believe. John Cheeks and the first man who saw Mr. Breaux. He is good friends with the family. I'll probably think of more as I watch the dvr tonight.

Oh-Brad Bishop one was so crazy and the Mute girl. The motorcycle guy offering the British guy a girl lol never ever believed that.

Wasn't there something about a man who fled the US and came in to contact with some kind of English spy or something that was later proven fake?

I'm not going to say if the witness was mistaken or not. This case to me is full of unanswered questions. The case of Ruby Bruguier and Arnold Archambeau. A witness claims he saw Arnold at a New Years Eve party 3 weeks after the accident.

How about Jacklyn Dowaliby's poor adoptive father nearly receiving prison and possibly the death penalty because some dingaling "recognized" him from an unbelievable distance in dim lighting at night? We now know the stepfather was never there, but was the "witness" there at all? Did he see anything? :crazy:

How about Jacklyn Dowaliby's poor adoptive father nearly receiving prison and possibly the death penalty because some dingaling "recognized" him from an unbelievable distance in dim lighting at night? We now know the stepfather was never there, but was the "witness" there at all? Did he see anything? :crazy:

He DID receive a prison sentence, originally, based off that "sighting". Thankfully it was eventually overturned. But just the fact that it even got that far in the first place off a sighting that included nothing but a shadow that may have had the same shaped nose as David Dowaliby was so...there are no words.

That bar woman who thought she met Kerri Lynn Nixon, how could she have been so wrong?

^ Yeah, that was ridiculous. A lot of the elderly witnesses on the show (such as the woman who got her days confused) and that bartender really messed up. There's no doubt that they did more harm than good.