Horshack

Ooh! Ooh! Guess which Sweathog almost graduated from Mr. Kotter’s class to his own series? The episode of Welcome Back Kotter entitled “There Goes Number 5” was the pilot for an Arnold Horshack series in which the geeky student becomes a surrogate father to his younger siblings after his mother’s fifth husband dies. ABC ultimately decided to green light the Barney Miller spinoff Fish instead.

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Yes. They got two lackluster seasons vs. a presumed two disastrous months.

Yes. They got two lackluster seasons vs. a presumed two disastrous months.

Agreed. While Fish wasn't perfect, it was a solid show for a while (and it could have lasted longer had they done just a bit of tinkering). I never saw the Horshack show as having any legs; Horshack was a supporting, not a lead character. I suppose the same could be said of Fish, actually, but his character was less annoying in large doses.

If you made Horshack more responsible and 'take charge', which would have been necessary for such a show, you really would have made a character that just wasn't Horshack anymore.

I've only seen about 10 minutes of an episode of Fish and as bad as that was, it was still better than the entire Horshack pilot. :lol:

Yes because he was the sweathogg I had no desire of watching due to his weirdness.

LOL

Your comments are all hilarious!

I guess it is unanimous then....ABC got this one right.

How about Welcome Back Kotter: The New Class? ;)

LOL

Your comments are all hilarious!

I guess it is unanimous then....ABC got this one right.

How about Welcome Back Kotter: The New Class? ;)

Anything "Kotter" without Gabe Kaplan would have failed. Yes, you could have made Julie the "Kotter" but as attractive as she was, she really could not have replaced Gabe.

The truth is that WBK is probably the strongest example I can think of in describing a show that was like a falling star, burning very brightly for a VERY short amount of time and then burning itself out. When I think back of how popular this thing was for three years, its incredible to remember that by the fourth season nobody really cared anymore.

Can anyone else think of a show that burnt out so fast? (sorry, Brian, don't mean to hijack your thread...just thinking).

The only spinoff opportunity I could see would be having Kotter teach at a college WITHOUT the sweathoggs

The only spinoff opportunity I could see would be having Kotter teach at a college WITHOUT the sweathoggs

Maybe.

I think it's possible that viewers were so invested in the original four (I don't count Beau or Angie) that they wouldn't have been interested, but by that point Travolta would have been gone for good and it was obvious that the remaining stars needed a strong lead, so replacing them all might have been, regrettably the best option, though I don't see that working too well either.

I still say they should have backed up the Brinks truck and attempt a spin off of Barbarino living on his own and working in the hospital.

I still say they should have backed up the Brinks truck and attempt a spin off of Barbarino living on his own and working in the hospital.

Actually, that might have worked, but...I have a feeling Travolta was concentrated on his film career at that point. What do you think?

Actually, that might have worked, but...I have a feeling Travolta was concentrated on his film career at that point. What do you think?

I absolutely agree with that, but I think ABC should have tried to keep him somehow. I mean it use to be like a job promotion to go from TV to film back in the day. Now a days we are seeing all these Oscar winning or nominated movie stars return to TV because, honestly, the creativity just isn't in movies now.

I absolutely agree with that, but I think ABC should have tried to keep him somehow. I mean it use to be like a job promotion to go from TV to film back in the day. Now a days we are seeing all these Oscar winning or nominated movie stars return to TV because, honestly, the creativity just isn't in movies now.

Heh, I'd be hard pressed to say where that creativity is, period!

But yeah, I know what you mean. TV is kind of a hotter medium now than film, which says something about how horrible film is today. ohno:

Travolta was on a roll for a while there, with Saturday Night Fever and Grease, and Blow Out. As much as I usually decry stars leaving their shows for the lure of film (because it usually pans out), I really can't say I blame him. WBK was only good for another two or three years even WITH him, and if he had waited those opportunities would have been gone.

Can anyone else think of a show that burnt out so fast? (sorry, Brian, don't mean to hijack your thread...just thinking).

Mork & Mindy. An even bigger hit, it had an even longer and more agonizing flameout but was on the air exactly as long as WBK.

You're right.

Personally, I don't feel that M and M fell quite as far in quality in the last year as WBK did, but it was undoubtedly a much weaker show than it was in the first couple of years.

To answer your original question, Brian - YES!!!

Horshack as a sitcom could have worked, but not like the pilot had it.

If Horshack has to be a father to his younger siblings, he'd be a supporting actor, as noted. What you could have is a slightly younger sister who is the real *brains fot he operation" and episodes often having a "Full House" type end witha lesson about love, respect, etc.; and Horshack growing as a result.

Could he grow enough to be a realistic father? Well, I use "Full House" for a reason - with the right character arcs, he could be Joey Gladstone, who did end up being a pretty decent father figure. And maybe if he finds a wife eventually...

The thing is, you'd need the kids to sell it, and I don't recall his younger sibilngs being that memorable. And even with good character arcs, I think they made the right decision. With a lot of tinkering, Horshack would have just been as good as Fish - solid but unspectacular. But, they got Fish anyway.

Anything "Kotter" without Gabe Kaplan would have failed. Yes, you could have made Julie the "Kotter" but as attractive as she was, she really could not have replaced Gabe.

That's essentially what happened in the fourth season. And we all know the fourth season ended the show...both creatively and in the ratings.

This question can only be answered by someone who is a fan of BARNEY MILLER and WELCOME KOTTER

So it's a question that should have been on the General Board not the Welcome back Kotter board

Actually, WBK's ratings plummeted from 13th place to 27th in Season 3. The retooling in season 4 did not kill the show, it was a desperate attempt to resuscitate it after it was already pretty nearly dead. Perhaps people were just tired of watching actors in their late 20s carrying on like teenagers.

Actually, WBK's ratings plummeted from 13th place to 27th in Season 3. The retooling in season 4 did not kill the show, it was a desperate attempt to resuscitate it after it was already pretty nearly dead. Perhaps people were just tired of watching actors in their late 20s carrying on like teenagers.

If that's really the case, then I feel that Kotter exec producer James Komack should have gone with Gabe Kaplan's proposal to move the show's characters and premise to a community college -- it might have actually revived the show's creative energies and possibly the ratings.

But we'll never know, will we...? ;)

The remaining sweathoggs getting their own apartment and jobs would have been more appealing than community college

The remaining sweathoggs getting their own apartment and jobs would have been more appealing than community college

But then the premise of Kotter being their teacher/mentor gets squandered.

I think the "fish out of water" premise could have worked really well in a community college setting if they had good writers who could have worked that angle. Obviously not the season 4 writers, to be sure!

Imagine their clashes with a new set of professors, intellectuals and Dean Woodman! (You know if Kotter & the Sweathogs had migrated to a college setting, Woodman would have magically become the Dean!).

But then the premise of Kotter being their teacher/mentor gets squandered.

I think the "fish out of water" premise could have worked really well in a community college setting if they had good writers who could have worked that angle. Obviously not the season 4 writers, to be sure!

Imagine their clashes with a new set of professors, intellectuals and Dean Woodman! (You know if Kotter & the Sweathogs had migrated to a college setting, Woodman would have magically become the Dean!).

In your (very good) scenario, does Beau stay or not? Any new "Sweathogs" or are all the new characters the intellectuals, snobs, etc.?

p.s. Again, I agree that "no Kotter" means "no hope" for the series, though.

But then the premise of Kotter being their teacher/mentor gets squandered.

I think the "fish out of water" premise could have worked really well in a community college setting if they had good writers who could have worked that angle. Obviously not the season 4 writers, to be sure!

Imagine their clashes with a new set of professors, intellectuals and Dean Woodman! (You know if Kotter & the Sweathogs had migrated to a college setting, Woodman would have magically become the Dean!).


At some point he would have had to be eliminated since he is only a school teacher and students get older and move on

The producers were never really able to bring along some appealing, younger actors in development, which ideally could have started as early as Season 1.

Look at Happy Days by contrast: Erin Moran as Joanie was a very minor character in the early seasons; along came Scott Baio, and eventually their young characters became strong enough to launch a spinoff. WBK wanted to ride the 4 main Sweathogs, which they did successfully, but without some really strong younger characters being developed -- maybe the siblings of the Sweathogs -- things eventually started to grind toward a halt.

In your (very good) scenario, does Beau stay or not? Any new "Sweathogs" or are all the new characters the intellectuals, snobs, etc.?

p.s. Again, I agree that "no Kotter" means "no hope" for the series, though.

No Beau. He added nothing to the show, IMO. They had Carvelli as a recurring character and I think that would have sufficed.

No Beau. He added nothing to the show, IMO. They had Carvelli as a recurring character and I think that would have sufficed.


I saw that the guy who played Carvelli appeared on Family Feud