I know Jean Stapleton had enough and wanted to leave the show, but with that said, what are your own personal thoughts on killing her off???

Well, there really was no other logical choice. I think to Carroll and the producers that it was unreal to have a major character appear infrequently. If it were me, I would have had her appear maybe eight eps per season. However, I think they came to the conclusion that it would not have worked out. She was a key element in the world of Archie Bunker and so either she stay full time or be laid to rest to make room for Archie to move on to other things and not be stifled.

Not sure how else they could have handled it. Recasting would have been a poor option.
The whole Archie Bunker's Place idea was really not worth pursuing in my opinion, especially without Edith. There were a few decent episodes, but nothing that memorable.

They wouldn't have had to kill her off if they had done the honorable and logical thing of discontinuing the series once they knew she wanted off. The only reason to continue a four character show without three of the characters was, and is, greed.

Brian, I had seriously wondered if it wouldn't have been better to have them announce that they had been divorced, but that would have hurt the ATF re-runs. There was just no other way to continue without her.

Nothing we could have done.

Well, there really was no other logical choice. I think to Carroll and the producers that it was unreal to have a major character appear infrequently. If it were me, I would have had her appear maybe eight eps per season. However, I think they came to the conclusion that it would not have worked out. She was a key element in the world of Archie Bunker and so either she stay full time or be laid to rest to make room for Archie to move on to other things and not be stifled.

You're mostly correct. But the decision was made because Jean Stapleton decided to leave the show. Had she elected to stay, I'm sure they would have done like the first season and had her appear in a handful of episodes.

And for the record, Stapleton supported the move. When asked how she felt about Edith "dying," she replied, "You can't kill an idea, can you?"

You're mostly correct. But the decision was made because Jean Stapleton decided to leave the show. Had she elected to stay, I'm sure they would have done like the first season and had her appear in a handful of episodes.

And for the record, Stapleton supported the move. When asked how she felt about Edith "dying," she replied, "You can't kill an idea, can you?"

According to Carroll from the True Hollywood story, it wasn't going to work having to film around Edith and something had to give which is why they went the route that they did. I also read somewhere that Jean had agreed to appear in a handful of eps but it was the producers that decided to kill off the character.

They wouldn't have had to kill her off if they had done the honorable and logical thing of discontinuing the series once they knew she wanted off. The only reason to continue a four character show without three of the characters was, and is, greed.

I don't see the continuation of a successful series like this one as greed at all, when you consider that the livelihoods of the actors, writers, crew, etc. all were at stake. Killing off her character was about the only viable option. If you had a partner in your own commercial venture who decided to leave, would you be greedy in maintaining your livelihood without him/her? Your family's income at stake?

It's easy to say that the plug should have been pulled, but the show was not "Edith Bunker's Place." I watched this series from its beginning back then, and to be honest I didn't even remember that Jean Stapleton was ever on it...!

I don't think there was any other choice other than to have her die b/c they never really had any marital problems that were bad enough to warrant them divorcing.

I think Divorce would have been better than Death, JMO

not a major player once it turned into Archie Bunker's Place, so the show did try the route of her being on recurring status.

I believe Jean Stapleton asked for her character to be killed off.

I don't see the continuation of a successful series like this one as greed at all, when you consider that the livelihoods of the actors, writers, crew, etc. all were at stake. Killing off her character was about the only viable option. If you had a partner in your own commercial venture who decided to leave, would you be greedy in maintaining your livelihood without him/her? Your family's income at stake?

It's easy to say that the plug should have been pulled, but the show was not "Edith Bunker's Place." I watched this series from its beginning back then, and to be honest I didn't even remember that Jean Stapleton was ever on it...!

If you see the show only in terms of being a 'commercial venture', of course you don't see it as greed. I see it as both a business and a work of art, actually, and on that basis I do feel confident in saying that once a show has lived it's natural life, it's time to move on. If your goal is simply employing people for as long as possible, you throw all artistic considerations out the window. Why not have Billie parade around in a bikini, or give Barney Hefner a sex change? Both of those things would have garnered viewers, but they wouldn't have been in the spirit of the show that Norman Lear originally conceived of a decade or more ago.

No, it' wasn't called "Edith Bunker's Place" but it WAS a direct continuation of "All in the Family". With Mike, Gloria and Edith gone, there wasn't much "family" left, I'd say.

I rather they just have something else written for her.

I think Divorce would have been better than Death, JMO

I disagree, as another poster said, there were no real marital problems between Archie and Edith, also, you could tell by this time that Stapleton was tired of playing Edith, you could see the signs in a few episodes of Season 9 of All In The Family.

I disagree, as another poster said, there were no real marital problems between Archie and Edith, also, you could tell by this time that Stapleton was tired of playing Edith, you could see the signs in a few episodes of Season 9 of All In The Family.


Well they should have never started ABP because it's still part of AITF and just because it happened on ABP doesn't mean that it's not part of the AITF reality. I mean the actress didn't die in real life so to me it was stupid to kill her off the show when there was no contract issues

Well they should have never started ABP because it's still part of AITF and just because it happened on ABP doesn't mean that it's not part of the AITF reality. I mean the actress didn't die in real life so to me it was stupid to kill her off the show when there was no contract issues

Edith loved Archie despite who he was, after all that time together why would they divorce then? I think death was the only option. If they were divorced you would create a thread saying "Why didn't Edith do any phone tag scenes after she left" :lol:

Edith loved Archie despite who he was, after all that time together why would they divorce then? I think death was the only option. If they were divorced you would create a thread saying "Why didn't Edith do any phone tag scenes after she left" :lol:


Or they could have made the show transition to the bar completely and no longer focus on his home life. And then he would just make references to Edith by

Mentioning her in the bar
Talking to her on the phone from the bar

Or they could have made the show transition to the bar completely and no longer focus on his home life. And then he would just make references to Edith by

Mentioning her in the bar
Talking to her on the phone from the bar

She was only in like 5 or 6 episodes of the first season of ABP and she was missed, I was thinking the whole time where is she. I just don't think you could have an invisible wife for 25 episodes, it just wouldn't work. You could do it with a neighbor or someone like that, but not a spouse.

She was only in like 5 or 6 episodes of the first season of ABP and she was missed, I was thinking the whole time where is she. I just don't think you could have an invisible wife for 25 episodes, it just wouldn't work. You could do it with a neighbor or someone like that, but not a spouse.


Did Jean Stapleton make the decision not to return during the OFFSEASON between Season 1 and 2 of ABP.

Did Jean Stapleton make the decision not to return during the OFFSEASON between Season 1 and 2 of ABP.

That's what it sounds like, she talks about it at 11:11 of this intereview
http://www.emmytvlegends.org/interviews/people/jean-stapleton

That's what it sounds like, she talks about it at 11:11 of this intereview


Well that means they should have just cancelled the show before the 1980-81 season

Well that means they should have just cancelled the show before the 1980-81 season

So for you it's Edith or nothing then?

So for you it's Edith or nothing then?


Yes, death is far too serious for a sitcom episode.

Yes, death is far too serious for a sitcom episode.

The show had plenty of serious episodes towards the end of its run, kind of morphed into the dramedy form well before Edith was killed off.

Well they should have never started ABP because it's still part of AITF and just because it happened on ABP doesn't mean that it's not part of the AITF reality. I mean the actress didn't die in real life so to me it was stupid to kill her off the show when there was no contract issues

I think it was smart to rename the show ABP because Mike, Gloria & eventually, Edith, would be gone.

It was a continuation of the Archie Bunker character and thus, a continuation of AITF to an extent.

But once Mike & Gloria left, AITF was never the same. They should have changed the name of the show the previous season.

The show took a big hit when she was no longer in the epsiodes. It is pretty hard to go on without one of the main characters.

The show took a big hit when she was no longer in the epsiodes. It is pretty hard to go on without one of the main characters.


Not that big of it since these are the numbers after she left

80-81....#13

81-82.....#12

82-83.....#22

It's amazing that a show that was #22 in the ratings got cancelled, especially when CBS renewed shows that were lower rated.

It's amazing that a show that was #22 in the ratings got cancelled, especially when CBS renewed shows that were lower rated.


I know, likes Dukes of Hazzard lol

It's amazing that a show that was #22 in the ratings got cancelled, especially when CBS renewed shows that were lower rated.

How much of it was CBS's doing. Did Carroll O'Connor want to end then or did he want to keep going?

How much of it was CBS's doing. Did Carroll O'Connor want to end then or did he want to keep going?


Carroll wanted more creative control of the show and CBS couldn't afford to meet all of his demands so they decided not to renew the show

Carroll wanted more creative control of the show and CBS couldn't afford to meet all of his demands so they decided not to renew the show

Oh, ok.

I am suprised the ratings were that good for being on that long. It had to end at some point though.

Oh, ok.

I am suprised the ratings were that good for being on that long. It had to end at some point though.



That's still a remarkable run, to be in the top 20 or 30 for 12 consecutive years. Not sure if any other show accomplished that

I think Divorce would have been better than Death, JMO
But not by much......lol

Carroll wanted more creative control of the show and CBS couldn't afford to meet all of his demands so they decided not to renew the show

I never heard that. In fact, O' Connor was already a producer (or a consultant) and had power to veto storylines and scripts, not to mention being one of the highest paid actors in television at that time.

I never heard that. In fact, O' Connor was already a producer (or a consultant) and had power to veto storylines and scripts, not to mention being one of the highest paid actors in television at that time.


I;m about to post the article

Go for it.

I think it was more logical than having her just referred to here and there. I think the best sitcoms are the ones that make you feel different emotions, and death is a sad part of life (I cried during the Archie Alone episode when it aired).

But not by much......lol

(Know this is an oldish thread but somehow I missed it and it is an interesting and thought-provoking topic)

DIVORCE wouldn't have worked easily; it would have been very incongruous of the character, Edith, as well as the General AITF/early ABP story plot. Edith was deep in love with Archie, and he with her. She would have stood by him through A LOT. The only time I remember the story line ever hinting of her leaving is when he was an out of control gambler earlier in the marriage. And he didn't want to lose her enough so he went on the wagon/stopped.

For a divorce to have worked something REALLY EGREGIOUS would have needed tohappen: BLATANT adultery, relapse into gambling, domestic violence. And none of it would have really worked-because a CLEAR central theme of the show was their strong devotion to each other.

So...Jean's leaving by having her character pass was a "logical" way to do the break. And yes, not having Edith there was jarring, at least to me, but that too made sense; because that's how one would feel about an endearing person passing.

On another note, I totally understand Jean wanting to leave. She was a brilliant versatile actress who didn't want to be typecast; and she proved her mettle with later endeavors. Even though I think of her work as Edith with much joy, she played lots of other great characters too. It's a testament to her professional integritythat she didn't just want to milk a lucrative gravy train- but wanted to take on new challenges. Kudos to her for that!

AND why should the show be killed off when you can make a logical plot transition; Caroll O'Connor was almost as good as Jean, and a fine enough actor to still anchor the show-and the supporting cast for ABP was great-with the wonderful Ann Meara and fine character actors Martin Balsum and Allan Melvin.

IMO ABP wasn't a stellar masterpiece like AITF it was still a fine show; and I'd love to see a retro channel bring it back.

IMO ABP wasn't a stellar masterpiece like AITF it was still a fine show; and I'd love to see a retro channel bring it back.

FamilyNet has been airing it for the past few months.

FamilyNet has been airing it for the past few months.

Thanks for the info! I don't have cable but will cross my fingers Antenna will pick it up one day.

(Know this is an oldish thread but somehow I missed it and it is an interesting and thought-provoking topic)

DIVORCE wouldn't have worked easily; it would have been very incongruous of the character, Edith, as well as the General AITF/early ABP story plot. Edith was deep in love with Archie, and he with her. She would have stood by him through A LOT. The only time I remember the story line ever hinting of her leaving is when he was an out of control gambler earlier in the marriage. And he didn't want to lose her enough so he went on the wagon/stopped.

For a divorce to have worked something REALLY EGREGIOUS would have needed tohappen: BLATANT adultery, relapse into gambling, domestic violence. And none of it would have really worked-because a CLEAR central theme of the show was their strong devotion to each other.

So...Jean's leaving by having her character pass was a "logical" way to do the break. And yes, not having Edith there was jarring, at least to me, but that too made sense; because that's how one would feel about an endearing person passing.

On another note, I totally understand Jean wanting to leave. She was a brilliant versatile actress who didn't want to be typecast; and she proved her mettle with later endeavors. Even though I think of her work as Edith with much joy, she played lots of other great characters too. It's a testament to her professional integritythat she didn't just want to milk a lucrative gravy train- but wanted to take on new challenges. Kudos to her for that!

AND why should the show be killed off when you can make a logical plot transition; Caroll O'Connor was almost as good as Jean, and a fine enough actor to still anchor the show-and the supporting cast for ABP was great-with the wonderful Ann Meara and fine character actors Martin Balsum and Allan Melvin.

IMO ABP wasn't a stellar masterpiece like AITF it was still a fine show; and I'd love to see a retro channel bring it back.

Agree with you on all points.

Two other scenarios (very unlikely) to keep Edith alive without Jean Stapleton would have been:

1. Whenever someone asks where Edith is, Archie would say "She's working at the Sunshine Home." I know Edith was fired by the Sunshine Home, but maybe they let her come back or she could be volunteering at another nursing home.

2. Edith has left town to take care of a sick relative. It's mentioned once and the character is never referenced to again (shades of Chuck on Happy Days or Chrissy on Three's Company.

Agree with you on all points.

Two other scenarios (very unlikely) to keep Edith alive without Jean Stapleton would have been:

1. Whenever someone asks where Edith is, Archie would say "She's working at the Sunshine Home." I know Edith was fired by the Sunshine Home, but maybe they let her come back or she could be volunteering at another nursing home.

2. Edith has left town to take care of a sick relative. It's mentioned once and the character is never referenced to again (shades of Chuck on Happy Days or Chrissy on Three's Company.

Those are excellent ideas- Shame no one producing the show thought of it- this way Edith is alive, and maybe they could have talked Jean into one or two eps a season- but there is the possibility she wasn't even willing to do that, although for the sake of the show, I hoped she would have.

Those are excellent ideas- Shame no one producing the show thought of it- this way Edith is alive, and maybe they could have talked Jean into one or two eps a season- but there is the possibility she wasn't even willing to do that, although for the sake of the show, I hoped she would have.

No, she was done. She only appeared in a few ABP episodes during season one.

And I don't think it would have been a good thing if the producers had used either of my ideas. I was pitching them out there because other shows had done similar things with discarded characters. Not necessarily dead ones.

I was pitching them out there because other shows had done similar things.

How about recasting? Other shows have done that. (I know, too iconic).

How about recasting? Other shows have done that. (I know, too iconic).
That wouldn't have worked. I remember when the Waltons recast John Boy. They needed the character but the replacement actor was awful.

For everyone that agrees that Edith's death was necessary: what we got because they wanted to continue the show was A) A widowed Archie, B) a dead Edith, and no Mike and Gloria (who also later were broken up because they had to do the short lived "Gloria".)

Wouldn't it be GREAT to have in our minds and memories an ending where everyone was alive, together and happy? Ultimately, were the four lukewarm seasons of ABP worth the really downbeat "non ending" we got? I know that ABP wasn't allowed a proper finale and if it had been, it would no doubt have been fairly upbeat, but you still would have had the core of the AITF show, the folks we had grown to know and love for years, shattered and apart.

I honestly think they should have ended it after Season 8, when Mike and Gloria left.

Sidenote: None of this post is said in anger or disgust. I like all you guys and respect you, as well. We just have an honest disagreement. And frankly, this is the type of discussion I like a lot and would love to see more of! :)

For everyone that agrees that Edith's death was necessary: what we got because they wanted to continue the show was A) A widowed Archie, B) a dead Edith, and no Mike and Gloria (who also later were broken up because they had to do the short lived "Gloria".)

Wouldn't it be GREAT to have in our minds and memories an ending where everyone was alive, together and happy? Ultimately, were the four lukewarm seasons of ABP worth the really downbeat "non ending" we got? I know that ABP wasn't allowed a proper finale and if it had been, it would no doubt have been fairly upbeat, but you still would have had the core of the AITF show, the folks we had grown to know and love for years, shattered and apart.

I honestly think they should have ended it after Season 8, when Mike and Gloria left.

Sidenote: None of this post is said in anger or disgust. I like all you guys and respect you, as well. We just have an honest disagreement. And frankly, this is the type of discussion I like a lot and would love to see more of! :)
There is certainly more than one way to see this situation and your preference to have AITF end, because this seemed a logical stopping point, does not make your opinion disrespectful or invalid. I was personally happy with ABP, but IMHO, it was not a groundbreaking masterpiece like AITF.

And I don't think it would have been a good thing if the producers had used either of my ideas.

Sorry you feel that way, because with thoughtful writing, I thought your ideas would have worked.

To me, All In Th Family was a 4 (possibly 5)-year great show. After that, the mugging and hamming-it-up was just unbearable. But at least you had the 4 main characters. Once Mike and Gloria left, they should've ended the show on a high note, instead of just letting it fade away.

How about recasting? Other shows have done that. (I know, too iconic).

That would have bombed. I don't think the audience would have accepted that.

Although they probably wouldn't have liked it, I think the audience would have been more receptive to Archie remarrying after a period of mourning.

Sorry you feel that way, because with thoughtful writing, I thought your ideas would have worked.

Thank you.