I was recently watching the episode Crock Tales, and I couldn't get over what Roz said to Daphne when Daphne was explaining what happened with her and Niles when they slept together for the first time. Daphne was saying how Niles wore her out and then when she thought she couldn't take any more, he flipped her over and they went at it some more. :lol:
Roz was shocked that Niles could please a woman. I mean why not? Just because a man is a bit of a clean freak and intelligent, doesn't mean he can't be good in bed.
Heck I have heard stories about really good looking guys who were horrible in bed. Just because some one looks a certain way or acts a certain way, doesn't mean they can't be a good lover.
If Niles were a real person I would have jumped his bones! He was not only a gentlemen, but he was funny and smart. Daphne was lucky to have had him as a husband and a lover.
I like Roz but I found her comment to be a bit of a stereotype. :rolleyes:

considering Niles physical stunts during the run of the show, I can see how she would reply that way.



This was the guy the hit himself in the face with a quarter when he tried to flip it in the air.

Lets not forget the whole bike-riding ordeal.:D

Plus Niles is definitely NOT like the men that Roz typically goes out with. So of course she's not going to be able to judge his "abilities." I think it's totally in-character for her to make an assumption like that, esp. since he made a lot of assumptions about her lifestyle, too! (I'm talking about early on, when they could barely stand each other.)

Plus Niles is definitely NOT like the men that Roz typically goes out with. So of course she's not going to be able to judge his "abilities." I think it's totally in-character for her to make an assumption like that, esp. since he made a lot of assumptions about her lifestyle, too! (I'm talking about early on, when they could barely stand each other.)

You do have a point but just because Niles wasn't her type doesn't mean that he wasn't "good". I mean Niles wasn't far off on his assumption of her, I mean she did have a great deal of men in and out of her life and bed. A lot of women found Niles attractive and apparently he was "good" as Roz put it. Daphne did explain Niles' abilities in detail with a smile on her face so you know that Niles was good. :lol:

considering Niles physical stunts during the run of the show, I can see how she would reply that way.



This was the guy the hit himself in the face with a quarter when he tried to flip it in the air.

Lets not forget the whole bike-riding ordeal.

Well yeah, but he did learn to ride a bike and actually became very good at it. Flipping a coin in the air can be quite difficult, if you don't do it just right. I still have a hard time myself doing that. Most of the physical stunts he did were mainly because he was in Daphne's presence and she made him nervous. Look how well he did the tango and Daphne never even taught him how, it was magnificent. I do see what you are saying but just because someone is uncoordinated doesn't mean they can't be good in bed. Just my two cents. :)

No disrespect to your convo here, but here are a few shots of Roz experiencing what she was missing. In this episode (sorry, don't recall which one - it's a later ep.) Niles makes a comment about him being the only one not to have joined the club of who kissed Roz. Roz initiates him into the club when she sneaks one in.

No disrespect to your convo here, but here are a few shots of Roz experiencing what she was missing. In this episode (sorry, don't recall which one - it's a later ep.) Niles makes a comment about him being the only one not to have joined the club of who kissed Roz. Roz initiates him into the club when she sneaks one in.

Your not showing any disrespect at all, if anything you are proving my point. Niles looked like a good kisser to me but the kiss was mainly to get back at Niles for something he said, not so much as to prove if he was a good kisser or not. I mean Daphne had no complaints obviously so Niles must have been doing something right. ;)

Andress Jade, I love your avitar!

Just found this.

Just found this.

I know it's an amazing picture. They were beautiful together. :)

I like Roz too but she could say some pretty uncaring things. I have to admit that sometimes she got on my nerves. That line about Niles flipping Daphne over was hysterical by the way!

Actually, I thought Roz's reaction was funny.

This is completely off topic and I apologize but I was a little annoyed with Frasier in the finale when he saw David for the first time. I'm sure I'm being completely ridiculous and I don't mean to ruin the whole episode but when he looks at the baby and says "Oh my God, he's beautiful!" It must have been his tone of voice but it annoyed me because he sounds so stunned, like he can't believe that Niles and Daphne would have a beautiful baby. I noticed he didn't have that reaction when Roz had Alice, though. Sorry just had to mention that. I'm sure I'm reading more into it and Kelsey probably just over-played that line. It's still an amazing scene.

Roz could sense his closeted homosexuality. Much like all the gay characters on that show. Not to mention Fraser. In fact there was a veiled reference to brother brother incest in a more than a few episodes.

No disrespect to your convo here, but here are a few shots of Roz experiencing what she was missing. In this episode (sorry, don't recall which one - it's a later ep.) Niles makes a comment about him being the only one not to have joined the club of who kissed Roz. Roz initiates him into the club when she sneaks one in.

Niles' reply: "EVERYBODY kisses better than Maris."

Roz could sense his closeted homosexuality. Much like all the gay characters on that show. Not to mention Fraser. In fact there was a veiled reference to brother brother incest in a more than a few episodes.

I don't think it was that at all. I have to disagree with this. The way Niles was around Daphne, and the way he felt about her, there was no way he was homosexual. Yes, DHP was and is but Niles wasn't.
Roz said that because he was such a neat freak and was very pretentious, it had nothing to do with his sexuality. Niles was very picky about a lot of things, he liked things a certain way and to hear how much of an animal Niles was in bed was shocking to Roz. I think the whole incestuous brother thing was just a joke. Yes Niles and Frasier spent a lot of time together and were close but they were by no means incestuous. A lot of things on the show weren't meant to be taken seriously. :rolleyes:

I just watched this episode the other day to get ideas for a story and it had been a while since I'd seen it. I have to admit I was a bit annoyed by Roz's startled reaction to the fact that Niles had made Daphne so happy. But I can see everyone's point. Roz and Frasier didn't always get along, so I can see where she'd be surprised that Niles is truly a nice guy. You'd think that Daphne would have been a little annoyed with Roz for basically not believing her but I guess she was too caught up in the memories to really be bothered by it. :wink2:

I'm going to be very honest and objective here... I think as people who absolutely love Niles, it offends us a little when Roz or anyone else says something like that. Especially those of us (mostly me) who happen to think he's just about perfect. :)

But in reality, the character was, purposely, very metrosexual and often rather effeminate, as well. This was no big secret to anyone, Daphne and even Niles himself included... remember "the duke and duchess," and "you're both a couple of churls!" and "the Nancy boys" and how about when Frasier got his new towels and he and Niles were doting over them at the same time that Martin asked Daphne what sex she wanted her baby to be... first she said "boy" but then after looking at those two, she said "or a girl, either way." Just a few examples, but there were similar references throughout the whole series. I think Roz's reaction was simply part of that whole (mis)perception of who Niles was, especially coming from her, someone who hadn't really made an effort to get to know him-- or I should say didn't care to make an effort because they weren't really friends so much as they just sort of tolerated each other. Let's keep in mind too, that Daphne wasn't offended by Roz's comment... in fact, she was the one who started the conversation in the first place and even told Roz in a way that sounded like she was a bit surprised by it too. The whole conversation sort of seemed like it hinged on both of them being surprised by it, it's just that Daphne happens to love him while Roz doesn't, and I think that's why Roz's comments, which were definitely more blunt besides, felt a little more irritable. That's how it seems to me, but just my opinion of course. :)

I'm going to be very honest and objective here... I think as people who absolutely love Niles, it offends us a little when Roz or anyone else says something like that. Especially those of us (mostly me) who happen to think he's just about perfect. :)

But in reality, the character was, purposely, very metrosexual and often rather effeminate, as well. This was no big secret to anyone, Daphne and even Niles himself included... remember "the duke and duchess," and "you're both a couple of churls!" and "the Nancy boys" and how about when Frasier got his new towels and he and Niles were doting over them at the same time that Martin asked Daphne what sex she wanted her baby to be... first she said "boy" but then after looking at those two, she said "or a girl, either way." Just a few examples, but there were similar references throughout the whole series. I think Roz's reaction was simply part of that whole (mis)perception of who Niles was, especially coming from her, someone who hadn't really made an effort to get to know him-- or I should say didn't care to make an effort because they weren't really friends so much as they just sort of tolerated each other. Let's keep in mind too, that Daphne wasn't offended by Roz's comment... in fact, she was the one who started the conversation in the first place and even told Roz in a way that sounded like she was a bit surprised by it too. The whole conversation sort of seemed like it hinged on both of them being surprised by it, it's just that Daphne happens to love him while Roz doesn't, and I think that's why Roz's comments, which were definitely more blunt besides, felt a little more irritable. That's how it seems to me, but just my opinion of course. :)

I do agree with you to an extent on most of this. It kind of was the point I was trying to make. Niles was very neurotic and a neat freak and liked things a certain way. He enjoyed the finer things and not things most men would enjoy. He wasn't a "man's man" so to speak.
Despite that he was attracted to women and his infatuation, admiration and end eventual love for Daphne was proof of that. I think Niles was more of a "man" than most "real men." He knew how to treat women and was just a nice guy with a heart of gold. Just because he didn't act "manly" doesn't mean he was any less a man.
That is what Daphne saw in him and that is what she fell for and the metrosexuality and effemenintity didn't bother her, in fact I think she found it endearing. She said early in the show that she liked her men a little on the manly side until she kept getting treated like dirt by them. When she met Niles he was different from the men she had dated and he treated her like she deserved to be treated. He worshipped her and that's what she needed. There should be more Niles "types" in the world. :)
I guess the reason why I was so offended by what Roz said because she judged him because of the way he acted. Roz liked "manly men" an she usually ended up getting hurt by them whereas Daphne had Niles and he made her happy. Roz might have even been a bit jealous or envious of that. She didn't really get to know Niles like Daphne did and Daphne loved him, like bingbangbaby said. Don't judge a book by it's cover, open it and look inside, you might be surprised. :D

I think Niles was more of a "man" than most "real men."
That's for sure. That's exactly why the character has so many legions of female fans who absolutely adore him. For the longest time I thought it was just me, but every Frasier site I visit, every group of comments I see from pictures or videos, or pretty much any off-handed comments I come across always have indications of women finding the character attractive and desirable. DHP even said in one of those recent interviews that a woman approached him in the grocery store and said she just wanted him to know that she loves him. I think we can pretty safely assume that woman was a "Niles" fan. :)

But it was a little different for the character on the show. While Niles had some female attention, he didn't have a lot, and he did tend to attract women who either took advantage of him or weren't good for him. And I think many, if not most women, like Roz, just sort of overlooked him because the first thing they saw was that very metrosexual and pretentious side of him and they never dug any further. Actually, it's kind of even true with Daphne. She really showed no romantic interest in him at all for the first 6 or 7 years she knew him, and really only eventually came around because he loved her constantly and relentlessly. Once she became aware (accidentally) that he loved her, she had a pause to be able to contemplate all the things that he'd done for her and said to her for so many years that she too had overlooked, or maybe had written off as him just being a friend and a nice guy, and she was able to put it all together and bring it into focus as what it really was for her. She must have realized the depth and endlessness of his love at that time, and that's really what made her decide to consider him, I think. Then, once she dug deeper, of course she completely fell for him and that gave him everything he needed to bring all those wonderful qualities more to the surface. And I suppose that's when he and Roz became friendlier too, because then Roz could see some of those more attractive characteristics. Real love is supposed to bring out the best in a person and I guess that's exactly what happened to him. I'm just glad it happened with Daphne and not Roz or Mel or anyone else. :)

And just on a side note, can you imagine having all those big, life-changing revelations about him at a time that she was engaged to someone else and thought she was happy? That must have been awful. No wonder she couldn't stop crying. http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/Anneli2006/crycry.gif

Niles was a closeted homosexual. How many episodes alluded to that? At one point even Martin was gay!

Niles was a closeted homosexual. How many episodes alluded to that? At one point even Martin was gay!

Whatever you say. Most of that was just for laughs. If Niles was a closeted homosexual than how could he feel the way he felt for Daphne and even other women? DHP was homosexual but Niles wasn't. Martin was only pretending to be gay because he didn't want to go out with a woman he didn't like. It nothing to do with his sexuality. But whatever. :rolleyes:

I don't generally like to respond to comments like visaman's because I feel like mostly they're here to get under people's skin more than actually express an opinion and have a discussion, but just in case visaman is genuinely confused (Nurse Betty? :lol: ) I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and agree with andressjade that maybe he's confusing the actor (gay) with the character (straight).

It really is a rather ridiculous point to even argue because the show is over, it has been for years and years and Niles never turned out gay in the show, closeted or otherwise. I recently watched Shutout in Seattle, the episode where Daphne gets engaged to Donny and Niles goes into a funk and has an extended strange affair with a girl named Kit. I think if they intended for him to be a gay character, that's the time they would have had him come out instead of having him hook up with Kit. But they didn't. Nor did they anywhere else in the series, probably because the character wasn't intended to be gay (once again, just to review: actor, yes, character, no.) Visaman, if you haven't seen the series finale you should watch it. Niles is happily married to Daphne and she has his baby. Last I knew, that wasn't the definition of gay.
But then again, if you thought Martin was "gay at one point" then maybe it is a problem with the definition of gay. And how do you be "gay at one point," anyway??

If you're genuinely here to have a discussion then please respond. I'd be interested to hear why you are so intent on your opinion. If you're not here to have a discussion, then please go away. If you don't respond to this, then I won't be wasting any more words on your future posts.

I don't generally like to respond to comments like visaman's because I feel like mostly they're here to get under people's skin more than actually express an opinion and have a discussion, but just in case visaman is genuinely confused (Nurse Betty? :lol: ) I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and agree with andressjade that maybe he's confusing the actor (gay) with the character (straight).

It really is a rather ridiculous point to even argue because the show is over, it has been for years and years and Niles never turned out gay in the show, closeted or otherwise. I recently watched Shutout in Seattle, the episode where Daphne gets engaged to Donny and Niles goes into a funk and has an extended strange affair with a girl named Kit. I think if they intended for him to be a gay character, that's the time they would have had him come out instead of having him hook up with Kit. But they didn't. Nor did they anywhere else in the series, probably because the character wasn't intended to be gay (once again, just to review: actor, yes, character, no.) Visaman, if you haven't seen the series finale you should watch it. Niles is happily married to Daphne and she has his baby. Last I knew, that wasn't the definition of gay.
But then again, if you thought Martin was "gay at one point" then maybe it is a problem with the definition of gay. And how do you be "gay at one point," anyway??

If you're genuinely here to have a discussion then please respond. I'd be interested to hear why you are so intent on your opinion. If you're not here to have a discussion, then please go away. If you don't respond to this, then I won't be wasting any more words on your future posts.

You tell them bingbangbaby!:D I dislike people like this very much and there are a lot of them on You Tube. I got to the point where I just ignore them now. If you don't have anything intelligent or nice to say, just shut up. I don't understand why people say things to rile other people up. It's immature and stupid and a waste of time. You definitely said what I wanted to say, I was just too nice to say it, thank you bingbangbaby. :)

I don't generally like to respond to comments like visaman's because I feel like mostly they're here to get under people's skin more than actually express an opinion and have a discussion, but just in case visaman is genuinely confused (Nurse Betty? :lol: ) I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and agree with andressjade that maybe he's confusing the actor (gay) with the character (straight).

It really is a rather ridiculous point to even argue because the show is over, it has been for years and years and Niles never turned out gay in the show, closeted or otherwise. I recently watched Shutout in Seattle, the episode where Daphne gets engaged to Donny and Niles goes into a funk and has an extended strange affair with a girl named Kit. I think if they intended for him to be a gay character, that's the time they would have had him come out instead of having him hook up with Kit. But they didn't. Nor did they anywhere else in the series, probably because the character wasn't intended to be gay (once again, just to review: actor, yes, character, no.) Visaman, if you haven't seen the series finale you should watch it. Niles is happily married to Daphne and she has his baby. Last I knew, that wasn't the definition of gay.
But then again, if you thought Martin was "gay at one point" then maybe it is a problem with the definition of gay. And how do you be "gay at one point," anyway??

If you're genuinely here to have a discussion then please respond. I'd be interested to hear why you are so intent on your opinion. If you're not here to have a discussion, then please go away. If you don't respond to this, then I won't be wasting any more words on your future posts.

HA! Remember that ep. where a famous conductor fell in love with Frasier? He thought Frasier was gay and he thought Niles was gay. When Frasier says, "He does not think I'm gay!", Niles replied, "He thinks I'm gay, and I'm standing next to my pregnant wife!" Season 11: The Doctor Is Out.

HA! Remember that ep. where a famous conductor fell in love with Frasier? He thought Frasier was gay and he thought Niles was gay. When Frasier says, "He does not think I'm gay!", Niles replied, "He thinks I'm gay, and I'm standing next to my pregnant wife!" Season 11: The Doctor Is Out.

Is that HA! because you are agreeing with bingbangbaby or because you are disagreeing? I am a bit confused by your post. :confused:

Is that HA! because you are agreeing with bingbangbaby or because you are disagreeing? I am a bit confused by your post. :confused:

I'm sorry. I am just posting a funny part. I was just touching on the topic without agreeing or disagreeing.

However, I think Niles was perfectly played and I think that the producers/writters very possibly had to have been very much pro-gay. I think that is why there are occasional gay situations like Frasier thinking that Roz's new boyfriend is gay and try to prove it by following him into a gay bar, etc, etc. I read somewhere that the show was originally to be location in Colorado until it was known that Colorado did not support gay marriages. I think this has nothing to do with Niles Crane - who was obviously straight in the show as bingbangbaby stated. It's funny how people say that it was too obvious that David was gay and that his role was too unbelieveable, because the man is down-right brilliant when it comes to acting and those kind of people that say things like that (in my own oppinion) are the types of people that seem to always "know it all" even when they don't.

This post was in no way intended to insult anyone. Live, love, and let love live.

HA! Remember that ep. where a famous conductor fell in love with Frasier? He thought Frasier was gay and he thought Niles was gay. When Frasier says, "He does not think I'm gay!", Niles replied, "He thinks I'm gay, and I'm standing next to my pregnant wife!" Season 11: The Doctor Is Out.
:lol: Well that made me laugh out loud.
And no worries here... I welcome differing opinions because I enjoy discussion. It's hit and runs I don't care for.

HA! Remember that ep. where a famous conductor fell in love with Frasier? He thought Frasier was gay and he thought Niles was gay. When Frasier says, "He does not think I'm gay!", Niles replied, "He thinks I'm gay, and I'm standing next to my pregnant wife!" Season 11: The Doctor Is Out.


Now that I look back on this post and read the quote I have to admit that I did find that episode funny and that scene was hilarious. :lol:

There was the episode The Ski Lodge when Ghee was hot for Niles and of course Niles was hot for Daphne and wanted to tell her that night. When Niles found out that Ghee liked him, he said "I'm not gay, Ghee!" There was the big misunderstanding when Niles thought he was talking to Daphne when he was telling her how much he wanted her and it turned out to be Daphne's friend. :D
That should be proof enough that Niles (the character) was straight. He couldn't have felt the way he felt about Daphne if he was secretly gay. DHP did such and amazing job that I had no idea he was gay in real life until I read about it. DHP is a phenomenal actor. His characters love for Daphne was amazingly realistic and believable. :loveya:

I love your post, Pat. Thank you. :D

Actually, it's kind of even true with Daphne. She really showed no romantic interest in him at all for the first 6 or 7 years she knew him, and really only eventually came around because he loved her constantly and relentlessly. Once she became aware (accidentally) that he loved her, she had a pause to be able to contemplate all the things that he'd done for her and said to her for so many years that she too had overlooked, or maybe had written off as him just being a friend and a nice guy, and she was able to put it all together and bring it into focus as what it really was for her. She must have realized the depth and endlessness of his love at that time, and that's really what made her decide to consider him, I think. Then, once she dug deeper, of course she completely fell for him and that gave him everything he needed to bring all those wonderful qualities more to the surface.

This part of your post made me think of a particular scene in the episode To Thine Own Self Be True when Daphne was giving Mel a back massage. Mel was describing Niles' good qualities, the qualities that you said were brought to the surface and when Mel was talking about them Daphne got this dreamy look on her face thinking about what Mel was saying. She was seeing those qualities in Niles that she had overlooked before and that is when she realized that she was falling for him. So basically Mel helped Daphne see Niles' good qualities. I just love that scene because of the reasons I stated above. Daphne fell in love with Niles because of who he was, not what she wanted him to be. Niles said it best in The First Temptation of Daphne. "Our love is different..." I don't remember the entire quote right now but what he says is very true. They didn't have to be something they weren't, they brought out the best qualities in each other, it was meant to be. :)

This part of your post made me think of a particular scene in the episode To Thine Own Self Be True when Daphne was giving Mel a back massage. Mel was describing Niles' good qualities, the qualities that you said were brought to the surface and when Mel was talking about them Daphne got this dreamy look on her face thinking about what Mel was saying. She was seeing those qualities in Niles that she had overlooked before and that is when she realized that she was falling for him. So basically Mel helped Daphne see Niles' good qualities.
Yeah, that's a good scene. First Mel was talking about "that little sparkle he gets in his eyes when he's about to say something clever" and you could see that Daphne knew exactly what she was talking about. Then Mel was saying something about how he was a little introverted but full of all these wonderful qualities and that she wanted to be the one to help him open up and reach all of his potential, and I always thought Daphne was realizing that that's exactly how she felt about him too, and that she wanted to be that person for him.
This is probably another discussion for another time, but honestly, as much as I didn't like Mel and knew that she wasn't the right person for him, I do think she fell in love with him and I do feel a little sorry for her for that. She said in that scene that she's "crazy about him," and you can see in some of the scenes when they're pretending to still be happily married that she was hurt. That hurt is probably what really fired up that nasty side of her too, I guess. Jane Adams (Mel) did a good job with that part because if you look closely, once or twice after they've already hit the skids and are in the middle of her doing something nasty, she gives him a vulnerable kind of look, that of a woman who had fallen in love with him. If you blink you'll miss it, but it's there, mostly in that episode where they are at their fake reception.
Niles said it best in The First Temptation of Daphne. "Our love is different..." I don't remember the entire quote right now but what he says is very true. They didn't have to be something they weren't, they brought out the best qualities in each other, it was meant to be. :)
I do. I can see that whole scene play right in my mind:
"Because... this time it's different. Our love is different. It's not based on anyone's expectations, or... anything I'm supposed to be.
When I was with Maris, or with Mel, I found myself thinking about you. Just, uh, going about my day, or... even when I was in a session. I found myself thinking about you. Well now we're together. (Shrugs) I find myself thinking about you. It's not going to stop. (Hugs) I'm still mad at you."
:D

Now that I look back on this post and read the quote I have to admit that I did find that episode funny and that scene was hilarious. :lol:

There was the episode The Ski Lodge when Ghee was hot for Niles and of course Niles was hot for Daphne and wanted to tell her that night. When Niles found out that Ghee liked him, he said "I'm not gay, Ghee!" There was the big misunderstanding when Niles thought he was talking to Daphne when he was telling her how much he wanted her and it turned out to be Daphne's friend. :D
That should be proof enough that Niles (the character) was straight. He couldn't have felt the way he felt about Daphne if he was secretly gay. DHP did such and amazing job that I had no idea he was gay in real life until I read about it. DHP is a phenomenal actor. His characters love for Daphne was amazingly realistic and believable. :loveya:

I love your post, Pat. Thank you. :D

You're very welcome!