1. Valerie / Valerie’s Family: The Hogans / The Hogan Family (1986-91)

A long-term relationship with a TV show can be like a long relationship with any public institution. Sometimes the shows adapt to the needs of their patrons, evolving in tone, style, and purpose over time. Sometimes there’s turnover in personnel. And sometimes even the name changes. Rhoda star Valerie Harper returned to TV in 1986 with the sitcom Valerie, playing a working mother trying to balance the demands of her job and the rambunctiousness of three growing boys, including a teenage Jason Bateman. The show was often issue-driven, discussing teen sex, condom use, drunk driving, and AIDS. Then Harper quarreled with her producers, presuming (wrongly, as it turns out) that a show called Valerie couldn’t afford to lose its star. The next season, Valerie became Valerie’s Family: The Hogans (and later just The Hogan Family), and Harper’s character was killed off and replaced by her sister-in-law, played by Sandy Duncan. The topical subject matter gradually faded too, and the show became more about everyone in the household—including a crochety old grandpa added during thefinal season—trying to find romance. Before it was cancelled for good, the show even jumped from NBC to CBS. Anyone who stuck with it through all that was devoted. (But to what?)

http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-clown-show-has-been-put-on-hiatus-for-retoolin,25099/

http://splitsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/hoganfamily.jpg

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/hogan2a.jpg

Actually it was one of the best cases of retooling a show. lol

I agree, Sonny. Though I wonder why they kept using Valerie's name once she was no longer on it. They should've called it The Hogan Family as soon as Valerie Harper was off the program.

And it had one of TV's best theme songs too!!

Yup, the song was sung by Roberta Flack and written by Charles Gimbel/Norman Fox, the team who gave us "Killing Me Softly With His Song". :cool:

Worst Case of Re-Tooling? I don't think so! I actually loved the show with both Valerie and Sandy in the lead. It dealt with a lot of topics such as racism and AIDS. Why it isn't on DVD, I'll never know, but at least the episodes are on YouTube to watch.

I agree, Sonny. Though I wonder why they kept using Valerie's name once she was no longer on it. They should've called it The Hogan Family as soon as Valerie Harper was off the program.
That first year it was called Valerie's Family but on the opening credits it said Valeries Family and then it said The Hogans. lol I guess they wanted people to know it was the same show.

Reminds me of the Dynasty spin-off series The Colbys: when it premiered the opening credits said:

Dynasty II: The Colbys, just so the audience knew it was a sequel to Dynasty. "Dynasty II" was soon dropped and it became known just as, The Colbys.


Getting back on subject, I might have thought Chico & the Man, might have been the worst case of re-tooling.

I like the theme where Roberta Flack sang the song.

Here's a good mash-up between Hulk Hogan and The Hogan Family....

tt1QNn-N1w8

Personally, I'm glad it obtained that position as the worst case of a retool, as, in my opinion, it helps ward off greedy producers from doing something to hurt a show, such as ignoring the good advice that an actor gives out. Indeed, if I was the judge in the case, not only would Ms. Harper would have received the settlement that she certainly deserved, but I also would have ordered her to be written back onto the show, and I would have ordered Thomas L. Miller and Robert L. Boyett, the producers responsible for Ms. Harper's dismissal, as well as the executives at Lorimar-Telepictures and NBC donate their entire salaries from the show to actor's groups for a 6 year period.

That first year it was called Valerie's Family but on the opening credits it said Valeries Family and then it said The Hogans. lol I guess they wanted people to know it was the same show.

Just always struck me as weird. :crazy: :lol:

To me the worst case of retooling a show was Gimme a Break! After the death of Chief Kiniski his daughters were dropped from the show and Nell and Joey and a few assorted friends moved to New York. It became a completely different show. Gimme a Break!!!! :rolleyes:

Definitely disagree.

One of the worst show retoolings was Buck Rogers. They went from being on Earth to the spaceship, and added the lame robot Crichton.

Another one was Welcome Back, Kotter when they had the Sweat Hogs working for the school.

OK, I've got the worst retooling to end all worst retooling...

The original "Battlestar Galactica" was retooled after being cancelled in 1979. The new show was called "Galactica: 1980" and it was a disaster. Even to my very uncritical 15 year old eyes, it was obviously a failure. It aired at 6 CST, so they had to make it much more family friendly, i.e. very little violence or intense situations. Almost the entire cast was gone, with only Lorne Greene and Herb Jefferson Jr returning, as the characters had moved about twenty years into the future. They didn't even bother saying what had happened to most of the characters that were gone! Robbie Rist, Nazis, kids on flying ten speeds all figured into the plots...need I say more?? :(

OK, I've got the worst retooling to end all worst retooling...

The original "Battlestar Galactica" was retooled after being cancelled in 1979. The new show was called "Galactica: 1980" and it was a disaster. Even to my very uncritical 15 year old eyes, it was obviously a failure. It aired at 6 CST, so they had to make it much more family friendly, i.e. very little violence or intense situations. Almost the entire cast was gone, with only Lorne Greene and Herb Jefferson Jr returning, as the characters had moved about twenty years into the future. They didn't even bother saying what had happened to most of the characters that were gone! Robbie Rist, Nazis, kids on flying ten speeds all figured into the plots...need I say more?? :(


That was awful, but I did love that episode about Starbuck and the Cylon stranded on the planet together, I assume it was an unaired episode not used in the original.

^ Yes, that was the only episode of the whole series I really enjoyed, and it turned out to be the final one! :lol:

But it probably had to be part of the G1980 continuity because if you recall that episode explained the origin of Dr. Zee, who was not present during the original series.

It appears that V/VF/THF is among 20 shows that were criticized for retooling. I do not think they were in any order as far as the least and most worst of the worst. (I could be wrong though)

I disagree with what was mentioned in the article. The show stayed fairly similar throughout it's run, despite who the female lead was. It was a mixture of comedy and some episodes did tackle serious subjects. The show only lasted 5 seasons, so it still remained fresh. I did not read anything about how the retooling was bad for the show. It sounded more like the author disliking the show throughout it's entire run.

Many of the shows listed in the article were on for an extended time and as the seasons progress there will be changes/retooling.

It seems that the article was more about shows that were retooled in general. In a fair amount of what I read, nothing was mentioned of substance that made a good argument to illustrate how the show went downhill. It's just more of shows running their course.

I really liked The Hogan Family. In fact one of my favorite episodes (well, in all honesty the only one I can really remember) was on The Hogan Family instead of Valerie or Valerie's Family. I always thought Valerie's Family was such a stupid name because didn't her character die?

I really liked The Hogan Family. In fact one of my favorite episodes (well, in all honesty the only one I can really remember) was on The Hogan Family instead of Valerie or Valerie's Family. I always thought Valerie's Family was such a stupid name because didn't her character die?
Yes her character died. But her husband and sons can still legitimately be referred to as her family even in that case. Besides they were trying to maintain a link with the original name of the series (Valerie).

Actually I'm not gonna lie the show was still good as The Hogan Family but it was better as Valarie. The Valarie episodes were actually more realistic.

I agree, Sonny. Though I wonder why they kept using Valerie's name once she was no longer on it. They should've called it The Hogan Family as soon as Valerie Harper was off the program.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was called Valerie's Family during the legal proceedings against Ms. Harper. (Maybe there was a chance she would return). :confused: Once that was all over, is when the name became The Hogan Family.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was called Valerie's Family during the legal proceedings against Ms. Harper. (Maybe there was a chance she would return). :confused: Once that was all over, is when the name became The Hogan Family.

Hmmm...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was called Valerie's Family during the legal proceedings against Ms. Harper. (Maybe there was a chance she would return). :confused: Once that was all over, is when the name became The Hogan Family.
No she was never coming back. They killed off her character. Ms. Harper wanted the name changed. She claimed the name Valerie was named after her while the producers claimed it was named after her character which is why they used the name Valerie's Family. I think they finally changed it to the Hogan Family so people would forget about Valerie once and for all. I don't think Valerie Hogan was hardly mentioned after the name change.

What exactly went down between Valerie and the producers? I still don't get it.

What exactly went down between Valerie and the producers? I still don't get it.
I don't really get it either. All I remember was it was about money and power over the show. The producers won by forcing her out but Valerie did win her lawsuit against them.

Well, the good thing is that Valerie of Valerie/Valerie's Family is long forgotten. Valerie Harper is forever immortilized as our beloved Rhoda!!:) :)

But did this damage her career?

To me the worst case of retooling a show was Gimme a Break! After the death of Chief Kiniski his daughters were dropped from the show and Nell and Joey and a few assorted friends moved to New York. It became a completely different show. Gimme a Break!!!! :rolleyes:i know it was one of my cant miss shows during the first 5 years but the last season was not very funny the harry the hamster ep in season 6 was a pure jump the shark moment if ever there was one

Well, the good thing is that Valerie of Valerie/Valerie's Family is long forgotten. Valerie Harper is forever immortilized as our beloved Rhoda!!:) :)

But did this damage her career?

I don't really know, because she had a couple of failed pilots in between Rhoda and Valerie, and afterwards she had a failed sitcom in City and the Mary & Rhoda reunion movie failed to materialize as a new series. I think that was when she started focusing more on made for TV movies and the theater.

What exactly went down between Valerie and the producers? I still don't get it.

What happened was that Miller-Boyett, the producers of Valerie wanted to make the show to be more slapstick, along the lines of another M-B sitcom in Perfect Strangers on ABC, which debuted about 24-25 days after Valerie premiered. Valerie, along with husband and co-producer Tony Cacciotti objected to this decision. So when tension and disagreements rose, M-B forced Valerie, along with Cacciotti off the show, which eventually led to the lawsuits and Valerie and Cacciotti winning their case, which later led to the title and name changes.

And I agree with what Sonny Carson said about the show.

I didn't enjoy the show as much without Valerie Harper. I imagine it kept her name in the title to avoid fan confusion?

Getting back on subject, I might have thought Chico & the Man, might have been the worst case of re-tooling.

Exactly.

1 - You can't replace Freddie Prinze

2. - And you don't replace him with a 12 year old named Raul.

To say that Valerie/ The Hogan Family was one of the worst retoolings depends on where you're coming from. If you are a die hard Valerie Harper fan, that is the only way I can see where someone can say that.

I would have to say that The Hogan Family is one of the best cases for retooling a show around and for these reasons.

1. When all of these issues came out, the networks were more competitive between each other, and cable did not have the original programming market that it has now (what with more channels and a bigger variety of original content within those channels) to compete with network programming.

2. The show lasted long enough to make it comfortably into syndication. "8 Simple Rules" struggled hard after John Ritter died, and it is not running in any syndication markets (to my knowledge) today outside of ABC Family, which owns the show. The Hogan Family, owned by Warner Brothers, ran in multiple syndication markets for years after it was cancelled from its original run. In Chicago, I remember WPWR-TV, channel 50 carrying the show for a long time, and even PAX-TV carrying it for a while. Then, there was ABC Family, but that was short.

3. The show's feel: The writing, the characters, and the chemistry was strong enough to win an enduring loyalty from the audience and maintain that loyalty throughout the run of the show. That is a rare thing to do. And couple that with storylines that were largely wholesome for kids, fun for everyone, and funny for adults to the point where adults would catch any innuendos that kids wouldn't understand.

Today in television there are too many "know it alls" in the business who have obscure and eccentric tastes, who believe that the trash that they may personally like and approve will sell abroad. Ha! And they wonder why so many people are flocking to classic TV channels, and buying classic TV series, demanding more.

Along with Perfect Strangers, this is the exception to the rule of a Miller/Boyett sitcom that actually still holds up pretty well today. Oddly enough, they're the two M/B sitcoms not running in syndication. :confused:

Along with Perfect Strangers, this is the exception to the rule of a Miller/Boyett sitcom that actually still holds up pretty well today. Oddly enough, they're the two M/B sitcoms not running in syndication. :confused:

My only fear is that unless younger people are introduced to shows like these, the demand for them will be so limited that any substantiated draw in favor of them will fade away, and if brought back some day in the future, will not be watched because people don't care about "those old shows." This unfortunately has happened with Benson, and Empty Nest, and these shows are in danger of that happening to them (if it hasn't already) too.

That's so true, and why I plan on showing what I have of PS to my nephews, who are very young kids. I'd MUCH rather them watch that than Full House. puke:

That's so true, and why I plan on showing what I have of PS to my nephews, who are very young kids. I'd MUCH rather them watch that than Full House. puke:

Amen to that!!! I'm sure they would rather watch PS than Full House also.:lol:

Keep up the good work!:)

Hey, both of them already love the classic cartoons - Looney Tunes, Merrie Melodies, and Tom & Jerry - Larry and Balki would be right up their alley. They both enjoy slapstick. #auntiesprideandjoy

I watched The Hogan Family and thats the only title I remember it as. I dont remember seeing the title "Valerie" or "Valeries Family" just The Hogan Family. But to say it was the worst case of retooling a show, I disagree. I thought the show was funny with Sandy Duncan in the show. I dont think it was bad w/o Harper. If any show should have been more slapstick it should have been Full House. That show got lame as time went on and it really became the Michelle show towards the end.


Btw, wasnt Charles in Charge retooled as well? The family that Charles worked for left and replaced. That show stayed on the air as well.

I watched The Hogan Family and thats the only title I remember it as. I dont remember seeing the title "Valerie" or "Valeries Family" just The Hogan Family. But to say it was the worst case of retooling a show, I disagree. I thought the show was funny with Sandy Duncan in the show. I dont think it was bad w/o Harper. If any show should have been more slapstick it should have been Full House. That show got lame as time went on and it really became the Michelle show towards the end.


Btw, wasnt Charles in Charge retooled as well? The family that Charles worked for left and replaced. That show stayed on the air as well.


I first saw the show when it was called The Hogan Family, and it starred Sandy Duncan. When I saw in syndication that Valerie Harper was in the earlier episodes as the mom, I was surprised because I didn't know that the show started off with the mother character in it. The show had a different feel to it, but when I first saw it, the show was called The Hogan Family. Only the original masters title it Valerie, and then The Hogans before calling it The Hogan Family.

Your point about Charles in Charge is an excellent one mets82. Charles in Charge is another great example of a successful retooling. I actually liked the Pembroke family way better than the first family, and the episodes were livlier, funnier, and just had a better quality to them. The first family seemed to me as sort of dull and drab, hence probably one of the reasons why the producers decided to retool the show.

I think Valerie's husband had as much to do with the problems as anyone.

I think the last retooling of The Doris Day Show was pretty bad.

Val's husband? Her current husband, or her first, actor Richard Schaal?

Val's husband? Her current husband, or her first, actor Richard Schaal?

I was referring to Cacciotti or whatever his name is. Though I love Valerie Harper she had her share of drama.

I was referring to Cacciotti or whatever his name is. Though I love Valerie Harper she had her share of drama.
Ahhhh, the second guy, Tony Cacciotti. They wed in 1987, which I guess is around the time of her departure from the show. What's the story?

Well it has been said he had a "Svengali" type effect on her and convinced her into holding out so they could get more. Using her previous successful hold out (Rhoda) as a way to help convince her that it was a good idea.

Well it has been said he had a "Svengali" type effect on her and convinced her into holding out so they could get more. Using her previous successful hold out (Rhoda) as a way to help convince her that it was a good idea.
Ahhhhh...another Alan Hamel (Suzanne Somers' husband), huh?

Your point about Charles in Charge is an excellent one mets82. Charles in Charge is another great example of a successful retooling. I actually liked the Pembroke family way better than the first family, and the episodes were livlier, funnier, and just had a better quality to them. The first family seemed to me as sort of dull and drab, hence probably one of the reasons why the producers decided to retool the show.

Actually the Pembrokes were the 1st family.

The Powells, is the 2nd family you saw in the syndie-era.

I didn't enjoy the show as much without Valerie Harper. I imagine it kept her name in the title to avoid fan confusion?


Valerie was not happy that they kept the name. She expressed that in an interview where she asked "Why do they get to keep the name?" After that lawsuit was over, the name was changed to "The Hogan Family".

That first year it was called Valerie's Family but on the opening credits it said Valeries Family and then it said The Hogans. lol I guess they wanted people to know it was the same show.

Actually, at least when it was on NBC, it was called Valerie for the 1 1/2 seasons where Valerie Harper starred. It was not called Valerie's Family until her character was killed off, then it was renamed The Hogan Family when it was in reruns the next June. I remember when NBC ran a promo using Shirley Ellis' "The Name Game" to promote the show's new name.

Actually, at least when it was on NBC, it was called Valerie for the 1 1/2 seasons where Valerie Harper starred. It was not called Valerie's Family until her character was killed off, then it was renamed The Hogan Family when it was in reruns the next June. I remember when NBC ran a promo using Shirley Ellis' "The Name Game" to promote the show's new name.


I remember that commercial. I didn't know what was going on at the time. LOL.

Actually, "Valerie's Family: The Hogans" was a good way to handle the "loss" of Valerie Harper. The second season dealt with everyone adjusting to the death in the family, and Sandy's adjustment to becoming the mother figure.

But as with "Hazel" a generation earlier, jumping from NBC to CBS was in theory a good idea that, in practice, fell flat on its face. Accepting Edward Hillerman of "Magnum, P. I." as a new, previously unseen grandfather--who played his role as if he were still trying to boss Tom Selleck around--was something very few viewers chose to do. I know I quit watching after the network switch.

What happened was that Miller-Boyett, the producers of Valerie wanted to make the show to be more slapstick, along the lines of another M-B sitcom in Perfect Strangers on ABC, which debuted about 24-25 days after Valerie premiered. Valerie, along with husband and co-producer Tony Cacciotti objected to this decision. So when tension and disagreements rose, M-B forced Valerie, along with Cacciotti off the show, which eventually led to the lawsuits and Valerie and Cacciotti winning their case, which later led to the title and name changes.

And I agree with what Sonny Carson said about the show.

This article perfectly summarizes what Valerie Harper wanted/expected to do and what Miller-Boyett were used to doing. To put things in its proper perspective, if you were looking for sophisticated (like what Valerie Harper was used to when she was on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and later, Rhoda under MTM), "smart" sitcoms that didn't aim to the lowest common denominator and weren't inherently cheesy, then Miller-Boyett's kinds weren't for you. They were arguably the Chuck Lorre's (if Chuck Lorre did family-friendly comedies) of the mid '80s-late '90s:
http://www.macleans.ca/authors/jaime-weinman/the-20th-anniversary-of-the-most-awesomest-tv-contract-dispute-ever/

Valerie Harper was great but Sandy Duncan was also terrific.

The show was wildly successful both before and after Harper's infamous departure. After Duncan's bout with "Funny Face", she vowed never to do another show on tv again. But, with the writers and producers so desperate for another lady to replace Valerie Harper, they turned to Sandy Duncan as a last resort and a whole lot of money. Others who auditioned for the role and flopped were Sally Struthers, Marcia Strassman and Jennifer O'Neill.
Producers were looking for someone more congenial and less overbearing. However, I think I'd heard it almost turned out to be Beverly Archer. (Could be wrong though)....

By the looks of it, the Valerie debacle if you will was really a case of having "too many cooks in the kitchen". I've read some theory that Don Johnson (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090540/board/flat/174846814?p=1) may have indirectly played a role in Valerie Harper getting kicked off of the show w/ her namesake. This is because, Don Johnson was asking for a huge pay-raise for Miami Vice (another NBC show), but it probably isn't that simple as it looks.

It was a smooth transition.

http://www.nickiswift.com/3607/actors-whose-attitudes-got-written-shows/

PLdEKZTDH6MLG01ykAvH0jLTCzixcC1lGl

In one of the most bizarre re-casting moves in TV history, Valerie Harper, the eponymous star of the show Valerie, was killed off and replaced by Sandy Duncan as a result of a breakdown in contract negotiations. The show was renamed Valerie's Family, then eventually The Hogan Family. It went on successfully for another five years, but behind the scenes Harper was not so easily disposed.

Harper complained in the press (https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=860&dat=19880111&id=xidVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=aI8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2376,964726) that despite claims to the contrary, her compensation was agreed upon, and it was other areas of the contract that were "left open to be settled later" that led to her being "kicked out." Harper maintains that the whole dispute was over "creative input" while a lawyer for the show's production company, Lorimar Telepictures, argued "that her disruptive behavior was sufficient grounds for terminating her."

Harper ended up suing basically the entire production team behind the show, including NBC, Lormiar Telepictures, the heads of both companies, as well as showrunners Tom Miller and Bob Boyett. Only her suit against Lorimar stuck, but it netted her a nice payout when a jury awarded her "$1.8 million in compensatory damages and a share of the show's profits that could top $15 million," according to People. That's not a bad severance check, but it was about more than that for Harper, who said, "We won financially and we won morally."

Read More: http://www.nickiswift.com/3607/actors-whose-attitudes-got-written-shows/?utm_campaign=clip

The article posted above is wrong about how long the show went on. The show did not last for five years after Harper was wrongfully fired, rather the show lasted another 3 1/2 years.

The show lasted a total of 5 1/2 years.

The article posted above is wrong about how long the show went on. The show did not last for five years after Harper was wrongfully fired, rather the show lasted another 3 1/2 years.

The show lasted a total of 5 1/2 years.

That's right. Even counting the weird four-episode "season" in summer 1991, where they burned off the last unaired episodes, it would only be four years.

Producers were looking for someone more congenial and less overbearing. However, I think I'd heard it almost turned out to be Beverly Archer. (Could be wrong though)....

I would doubt that, considering Beverly was co-starring on Mama's Family from 1986-1990.

For me, the worst case of retooling on a show would be:

The Facts of Life - there were multiple retoolings: the retooling between Season 1 and 2, when half the cast was "let go"; the retooling in Season 5, when Eastland was abandoned; Season 7 when the bakery burned down and the episodes no longer revolved around Mrs. Garrett. The show became unrecognizable.

Gimme a Break - Once the girls left the show and plots revolved around Nell and Addie in New York, it became unwatchable.

Charles in Charge - The retool between Seasons 1 and 2 was unbelievable. The old family moved, but left the babysitter behind for a new family?! Please.

A Different World - The loss of Denise and Marisa Tomei and the new focus on Whitley caused me to stop watching. Also, I preferred the Season 1 theme song.

Laverne without Shirley may have been the worst one for me. The show was just holding on by a string at that point. :(

Laverne without Shirley may have been the worst one for me. The show was just holding on by a string at that point. :(

I'd forgotten that one. Thanks for the reminder. Once Shirley was gone, the show lost what had made it work. That last season was terrible.

I'd forgotten that one. Thanks for the reminder. Once Shirley was gone, the show lost what had made it work. That last season was terrible.

You're welcome. :wave:

I agree, that was the pits. They should have just wrapped it up as soon as possible.

I do think that the series finale for Laverne and Shirley was bad. That was a backdoor pilot for Carmine?

Carmine was the worst character on L&S anyway.

This article perfectly summarizes what Valerie Harper wanted/expected to do and what Miller-Boyett were used to doing. To put things in its proper perspective, if you were looking for sophisticated (like what Valerie Harper was used to when she was on The Mary Tyler Moore Show and later, Rhoda under MTM), "smart" sitcoms that didn't aim to the lowest common denominator and weren't inherently cheesy, then Miller-Boyett's kinds weren't for you. They were arguably the Chuck Lorre's (if Chuck Lorre did family-friendly comedies) of the mid '80s-late '90s:
http://www.macleans.ca/authors/jaime-weinman/the-20th-anniversary-of-the-most-awesomest-tv-contract-dispute-ever/

To add a bit, Miller-Boyett's sitcoms had three basic fundamentals in their formula: Be cheesy as hell, catchphrase heavy, and hokey. Full House, which debuted a year later on ABC is the biggest embodiment of this formula.

This shows that these shows have aged well.

I've really liked a lot of the episodes post-Valarie. I still think the show was better with her, but it was still good when she left. Some cheesy moments, but some that still hold up.

Like the episode where Dave hires a lousy waitress to be the Hogans Housekeeper because he likes her and Mark tells Dave
"Dave I know what your thinking about, and I know what your thinking it with", LOL. And when Mark and Willie get the x-rated tape stuck in the VCR.
Mark: "Desiree Dujour, what else has she done?
Willie: "With a name like that, probaly everybody", LMAO.

This shows that these shows have aged well.
My mistake, these shows haven't aged well is what I meant.

And when Mark and Willie get the x-rated tape stuck in the VCR.
Mark: "Desiree Dujour, what else has she done?
Willie: "With a name like that, probaly everybody", LMAO.

That one aired just yesterday; I was surprised at how much entertaining physical comedy Michael and David had together in this episode, and then at the end they had a poignant touching father-son scene.

What a ridiculous thread.

The show actually peaked without Valerie Harper and survived for 4 more seasons with Duncan in the lead role.

What a ridiculous thread.

The show actually peaked without Valerie Harper and survived for 4 more seasons with Duncan in the lead role.
Ratings got better because the controversy of Valarie being fired from her own show attracted more viewers. The show was still good but got more commercial and a little bit more cheesy(Dad sees a UFO, David falls in love with a princess). And you have to admit Sandy was not as strong of a lead as Val!

Ratings got better because the controversy of Valarie being fired from her own show attracted more viewers. The show was still good but got more commercial and a little bit more cheesy(Dad sees a UFO, David falls in love with a princess). And you have to admit Sandy was not a strong of a lead a strong Val!

Same thing with Designing Women. Once Delta Burke left after the whole controversy in the press, ratings went up to see how it affected the show.

Ratings got better because the controversy of Valarie being fired from her own show attracted more viewers. The show was still good but got more commercial and a little bit more cheesy(Dad sees a UFO, David falls in love with a princess). And you have to admit Sandy was not as strong of a lead as Val!

The bottom-line is that Valerie Harper was the reason the show was even created in the first place. And since her fans would in theory, be the core of any fanbase, her not acknowledging the program pretty much robs it of that support.

And quite frankly for most people, it can be hard to be a fan series which had no consistency during its entire run. Like I said, it started as vehicle for Valerie Harper to one for budding star Jason Bateman (even though Sandy Duncan was technically, the lead at this point).

My mistake, these shows haven't aged well is what I meant.

One could argue that Valerie/The Hogan Family really wasn't that funny to begin with. Outside of with Valerie Harper and Jason Bateman and an occasional one-liner later on from Sandy Duncan, was the show really that amusing? And besides Jason Bateman's David, were there any real breakout characters? As talented of a performer Bateman was/is it isn't like he could easily carry the series on his own shoulders. The narrative structure just wasn't compatible with the style of humor at which he excels. I mean compare being inside the confines of the formulaic, Miller-Boyett cheese-factory to something more ahead of its time and edgier like It's Your Move.

I'd forgotten that one. Thanks for the reminder. Once Shirley was gone, the show lost what had made it work. That last season was terrible.

The last season of Laverne & Shirley was an utter trainwreck. It wasn't just the fact that Cindy Williams was gone after the first two episodes, it was feeling that writers ran out of decent storylines and began to come up with really far fetched ones. Like there was an episode where Laverne ends up on death row by mistake. And there is another one where they are talking to a ghost.

The last season of Laverne & Shirley was an utter trainwreck. It wasn't just the fact that Cindy Williams was gone after the first two episodes, it was feeling that writers ran out of decent storylines and began to come up with really far fetched ones. Like there was an episode where Laverne ends up on death row by mistake. And there is another one where they are talking to a ghost.

I think I blocked most of that last season from my memories. I don't even remember a ghost or Laverne being on Death Row. But that sounds horrible. I do, however, remember that, for some bizarre reason, the writers decided to make Edna leave her husband, instead of her just being off-screen. I found that completely unbelievable, and a betrayal of the characters, as well as the audience.

I think I blocked most of that last season from my memories. I don't even remember a ghost or Laverne being on Death Row. But that sounds horrible. I do, however, remember that, for some bizarre reason, the writers decided to make Edna leave her husband, instead of her just being off-screen. I found that completely unbelievable, and a betrayal of the characters, as well as the audience.

Agreed. The only reason Betty Garrett left the show is that she was led to believe that the seventh season would be the final one, so she signed on to do a touring play.

Agreed. The only reason Betty Garrett left the show is that she was led to believe that the seventh season would be the final one, so she signed on to do a touring play.

Yep. But I don't buy Edna leaving her husband. There was no warning, she just... suddenly left? Just like Shirley? Lazy writing. ...Or body snatchers!!! :lol:

Yep. But I don't buy Edna leaving her husband. There was no warning, she just... suddenly left? Just like Shirley? Lazy writing. ...Or body snatchers!!! :lol:

And even worse, she left Frank for another man. They could have said she was visiting a sick relative or whatever and just not mentioned her for the rest of the season.

The final season of L&S was a bit of a downer.

And even worse, she left Frank for another man. They could have said she was visiting a sick relative or whatever and just not mentioned her for the rest of the season.

The final season of L&S was a bit of a downer.

"Visiting a sick relative" would have been a great solution, Doctor T. It would have opened up the possibility for a brief guest appearance by Edna, while maintaining continuity with the show. "Suddenly ran off with another man" made no sense, given the existing context.

"Visiting a sick relative" would have been a great solution, Doctor T. It would have opened up the possibility for a brief guest appearance by Edna, while maintaining continuity with the show. "Suddenly ran off with another man" made no sense, given the existing context.

It just made a show that was already going downhill into even more of a downer. Laverne didn't have Shirley, Frank didn't have Edna and later in the season, Squiggy didn't have Lenny.

I think once they moved the characters to California, it was never the same.

It just made a show that was already going downhill into even more of a downer. Laverne didn't have Shirley, Frank didn't have Edna and later in the season, Squiggy didn't have Lenny.

I think once they moved the characters to California, it was never the same.

Yep.

I'm sure the writers thought moving the show to California would lead to interesting storylines. But by the following season, with half the cast missing, the show soon felt... hollow.

Yep.

I'm sure the writers thought moving the show to California would lead to interesting storylines. But by the following season, with half the cast missing, the show soon felt... hollow.

What's even worse is watching the redone opening theme sequence, where it's just Laverne alone while a group of kids sing the "Schlemiel Schlamazel" chant while she just watches.

Here is some food for thought, professional misogynist (https://toofab.com/2018/09/12/designing-women-creator-eviscerates-les-moonves-misogynist-reign-at-cbs/) Les Moonves (https://nypost.com/2018/09/12/show-creator-blasts-les-moonves-as-misogynist-bully/) became head of Lorimar (https://nypost.com/2018/09/10/les-moonves-spectacular-rise-before-his-fall-from-grace/) when Valerie began.

Here is some food for thought, professional misogynist (https://toofab.com/2018/09/12/designing-women-creator-eviscerates-les-moonves-misogynist-reign-at-cbs/) Les Moonves (https://nypost.com/2018/09/12/show-creator-blasts-les-moonves-as-misogynist-bully/) became head of Lorimar (https://nypost.com/2018/09/10/les-moonves-spectacular-rise-before-his-fall-from-grace/) when Valerie began.

I didn't know that.

Here is some food for thought, professional misogynist (https://toofab.com/2018/09/12/designing-women-creator-eviscerates-les-moonves-misogynist-reign-at-cbs/) Les Moonves (https://nypost.com/2018/09/12/show-creator-blasts-les-moonves-as-misogynist-bully/) became head of Lorimar (https://nypost.com/2018/09/10/les-moonves-spectacular-rise-before-his-fall-from-grace/) when Valerie began.

Yikes

One could argue that Valerie/The Hogan Family really wasn't that funny to begin with. Outside of with Valerie Harper and Jason Bateman and an occasional one-liner later on from Sandy Duncan, was the show really that amusing? And besides Jason Bateman's David, were there any real breakout characters? As talented of a performer Bateman was/is it isn't like he could easily carry the series on his own shoulders. The narrative structure just wasn't compatible with the style of humor at which he excels. I mean compare being inside the confines of the formulaic, Miller-Boyett cheese-factory to something more ahead of its time and edgier like It's Your Move.

Not as good as 'It's Your Move', but a lot better then 'Full House' and 'Growing Pains'!

Yikes

Molly Parker would have led a pitchforked mob of women against him! ;)

Molly Parker would have led a pitchforked mob of women against him! ;)

LOL darn right

What happened was that Miller-Boyett, the producers of Valerie wanted to make the show to be more slapstick, along the lines of another M-B sitcom in Perfect Strangers on ABC, which debuted about 24-25 days after Valerie premiered. Valerie, along with husband and co-producer Tony Cacciotti objected to this decision. So when tension and disagreements rose, M-B forced Valerie, along with Cacciotti off the show, which eventually led to the lawsuits and Valerie and Cacciotti winning their case, which later led to the title and name changes.

And I agree with what Sonny Carson said about the show.

shame on lorimar and the producers for firing her.

shame on lorimar and the producers for firing her.

At the end of the day, it's obvious that it just wasn't the right combination of star and producers although the show was (on the surface) doing fine. Valerie Harper was still somewhat stuck in the '70s while Miller-Boyett had a vision of doing family comedies with ensembles.