After the first season of The Monkees, Mike Nesmith complained to the press that "we're being passed off as something we're not", in that they didn't play instruments on their records. And he challenged the control of Don Kirschner.

I'm watching the second season now. I've seen a couple of episodes with no Mike (except for pre-taped musical numbers). I've seen an episode where a character is looking at all four of them and calls Mike (only) a "troublemaker". Then there's an episode where Davy, Micky, and Peter are hired to work on what turns out to be a pirate ship. Cut to onboard, Mike is with them, but right away gets seasick and is sent below to lie down. He is not seen for the rest of the episode.

What's the story? Were they getting him back for speaking out?

As Micky Dolenz so aptly put it, he and Davy Jones were actors who had to
learn to play music and Mike Nesmith and Peter Tork were musicians who had to learn to act. Therefore, it must have been particularly frustrating for Mike
not to be able to play on their first two albums. As Micky states, in his auto-
biography I'm a Believer:

"I don't want to make Mike out as a troublemaker. It was simply a case of
seeing the picture from a different perspective. Mike was determined to wrest
the 'creative control' of the music from the PTB, and they were determined to
hold it firmly within their hot little wealthy hands. From their point of view they must have thought, 'His records are selling like Hula Hoops. What the hell
does this guy want?' Of course that was the problem. They weren't his
records. If anything, they were my records, or Davy's records.
Mike was lucky to get a couple of songs on each album, but his songs were
never picked as the singles. I don't think it was a case of jealousy, but here
he was, raking in the dough, basking in the fame, and he must have felt that
he hadn't done a lot to deserve it. To his way of thinking, it must have felt
very illegitimate."

Micky goes on to tell how, at the end of January 1967, "everything came to a
head." When Micky, Davy, Mike and Peter were invited to Don Kirshner's
suite at the Beverly Hills Hotel to be given Gold albums for More of the
Monkees, Mike exploded: "Look! Either we get total and complete control
of all the recording and the releases or I'm quitting!" Micky says no
one thought for a moment that Mike was bluffing. "Mike doesn't bluff."

Because of his ultimatum, the powers that be were in a quandry over who to
replace: the group's musical director, or one of the members of the group?
"In an effort to make everybody happy," Micky says, "Bert Schneider agreed
to let the Monkees have 50 percent input on the material from that point on.
Kirshner reluctantly agreed."

Eventually, Kirshner was fired as the Monkees' "musical director." Boyce and
Hart were also out as producers, and Chip Douglas became their new producer. When their third album, Headquarters, came out, the Monkees
played every single note and supplied at least 50 percent of the material (or
Chip Douglas did).

well..i agree with some of that a guess but i don't think for one second that mike was trying to be a jerk! i don't i would have done the same thing too! in pithing a fit over the more of the monkees record and i do wish he had gotton more songs out there thats just one of the many reasons that i'm such a big monkees fan cause they stood up for them selfs (at least mike did anyway!) heck i would have puched a wall in too lol! i don't blame him at all he was a real singer and song writer and i do believe that he only join the monkees to help them write songs i don't know if thats true or not but i get that feeling! that he was just way too smart for the monkees! but i'm also glad he joined and stuck with them for so long! even after peter left i always thought he'd be the one to leave frist but i like mike and i love the monkees while other artist were probley takeing it all lieing down they weren't! and they'll always be my hero for that!

Mike did play a little on the first two albums. In fact, he even produced his own track, "Papa Gene's Blues."

After the first season of The Monkees, Mike Nesmith complained to the press that "we're being passed off as something we're not", in that they didn't play instruments on their records. And he challenged the control of Don Kirschner.

I'm watching the second season now. I've seen a couple of episodes with no Mike (except for pre-taped musical numbers). I've seen an episode where a character is looking at all four of them and calls Mike (only) a "troublemaker". Then there's an episode where Davy, Micky, and Peter are hired to work on what turns out to be a pirate ship. Cut to onboard, Mike is with them, but right away gets seasick and is sent below to lie down. He is not seen for the rest of the episode.

What's the story? Were they getting him back for speaking out?
Mike had his tonsils out during production of season 2, so he missed a couple of episodes. The Pirate Ship episode- Mike legitemately got seasick, and missed the rest of the episode because he was seasick (really).
Rafelson and Schneider did not have any more trouble with Mike than the other three from what I've read over the years.

Well..for one thing I don't think that
actully happened cause I thought he didn't
beileve in surgery or something like that
besides I think he was just kidding
and has for giving everyone a "hard time"
lol I don't think that happend either!
Cause if it weren't for him then they
really wouldn't have any say in nothing
and there album hq would have never
happened!

:confused: No, I don't know how he reconciled the surgery with his christian scientist beliefs but he did have his tonsils out and miss an episode or two because of it. It's been mentioned in interviews and you could probably find more details with a quick online search.

Also, if the stories about Mike's bank account are even half true, I would say he's had the last laugh and not the "PTB" in question ;)

I consulted the Bible (Andrew's book) and it is interesting to me. Mike had his tonsils out On Tuesday May 23rd. Prior to that on Wednesday April 5th, the Monkees resumed production on the show for the 2nd season before they went on summer hiatus. The first one they filmed for season 2 was The Picture Frame (wrapping on 4/7). While Mike is in that one, Peter isn't some of the scenes. I 'think' this is the episode he refers to from time to time where he had a bad trip and they had to film around him (just a guess). Now by this time, the Headquarters album had been completed and there were a few concerts. Filming wise for the second season, they then went about filming the following epiosdes prior to his surgery according to the book:

Art For Monkees Sake (production wraps 4/14)
Monkees Blow Their Minds (production wraps 4/20)
Everywhere a Sheik Sheik (production wraps 4/27)
The Devil and Peter Tork (production wraps 5/4)
I Was A 99lb Weakling (production wraps (5/11)
Monkees Marooned (production wraps 5/18)

Of these 5, he is only absent for one (99lb Weakling). The one filmed immediately after his surgery on 5/23 is Monkees Watch Their Feet (wrapping 5/26) and he is obviously gone from that but films a wrap-around segment later in the year. They then round out the pre-hiatus filming with It's A Nice Place to Visit (wrapping 6/2) and Monkee Mayor (wrapping 6/8) and he is in both of those.

As a side note, I get a kick how these episodes are actually aired in a different order so you see 'fuzzy' Micky mixed in with straight haired Micky. Again as a side note, when the Monkees film those videos in the rainbow room, they filmed them in Chicago August of '67 ath the Fred Niles Film Studios. I did a little research and those were filmed in the very studios that Oprah has resided in for her show. However, I digress....

The Hitting the High Seas episode isn't filmed until around 10/13 (almost 5 months to the day AFTER the surgery) This is another episode he bowed out of but it appears to be because he got really sick sometime during the week. He is also not in the "Card Carrying Red Shoes" episode (save for the "She Hangs Out" segment which was filmed earlier) which is filmed the previous month (9/27) but I have no idea why he was not in this one.

SO...I don't know if leading up to his surgery he was not in a few episodes because he had a sore throat or it was some type of punishment from management. I would say it would be the former but then again the legend would have it that sitting out a few episodes was just a form of his protesting and sounds much cooler than a sore throat. That doesn't seem to make sense as these episodes were filmed after Headquarters was recorded and they won their independence. Not to mention that the episodes that he sat out were not filmed in succession and the last one filmed that he's not in (Hitting the High Seas) seems to be because he was genuinely ill.

The thing I find a little irritating about him is that he pushes for this musical independence yet when you get to Pices (even though it is my favorite album along with HEAD and Headquarters), he starts to bail on everyone and do his own stuff which I found kinda weird. The iorny is that he pushed the rest of the guys to record their own stuff and Davy was the holdout as when the Headquarters sessions start, he is in NYC doing vocals for Kirshner songs (She Hangs Out, 'Violin', 'Mustang' etc.). Once Davy was on board for Headquarters and they do it all themselves, Mike decides to take himself in another direction and pull away from the three of them.

I know this all happened a long time ago so everyones memory of events is going to be all over the place (just like us and our memories) The truth is somewhere in the middle. It is like the other legend that was perpetuated where the Monkees didn't know a second album was out (More of the Monkees) and they had to buy it to hear it. Well again, according to the book, they were part of a radio station promotion in December of '66 where they were giving away advanced copies of that very album! So I believe that story (which Peter has told on many occassion) where they had no idea about the album to be false. It makes for a nice story and gives sympathy to the guys but I don't believe when you read the facts. The flip of that is if Peter's story is to be believed, then this album they were giving away in the radio station promo is NOT More of the Monkees and must be the great lost Monkee artifact.

Whew...I'm taking the dog for a walk. :)

Although The Monkees continued to release albums for a couple years after their TV show was cancelled, I've always considered the main period of popularity was during the run of the TV show 1966 to 68. It's interesting that after 45 years The Monkees still have a legion of devoted fans. The TV show was way off the wall, wild and silly but it retains a certain nostalgic charm when watching it today. And The Monkees recorded some songs that are considered pop music classics today. So hail to The Monkees, the 1960's was a great time for entertainment in America. Would be nice to go back to those days and live em again.

:confused: No, I don't know how he reconciled the surgery with his christian scientist beliefs but he did have his tonsils out and miss an episode or two because of it. It's been mentioned in interviews and you could probably find more details with a quick online search.

Also, if the stories about Mike's bank account are even half true, I would say he's had the last laugh and not the "PTB" in question ;)
Hmm whatever!

I think the fact that Mike has never had to do a Monkees reunion tour says it all about how much money he's got.

He inherited the patent for white out, practically invented MTV and has done pretty well for himself.

Hmm whatever!

Hippie...check out the post I did over the weekend. I took information from the Monkee book so it should help you out.:) Enjoy the show next month!

I wish Mke would come back and sing with the other 3. I miss him.

In the Monkees documentary, Mickey also said, as soon as they took control over their music, the sales tanked. Their music never sold like it did when professionally controlled, and produced.

In the Monkees documentary, Mickey also said, as soon as they took control over their music, the sales tanked. Their music never sold like it did when professionally controlled, and produced.

Do you think that had more to do with the 'fad' aspect of the Monkees and not because of how it was produced or controlled? Maybe the project just peaked right around that time.

I don't think Kirshner getting canned had any impact on how the music was distributed (meaning without his control the albums weren't in as many stores which would equal fewer sales). Not to mention, I don't think an album of Kirshner approved songs (drek like "If I Learned to Play the Violin") would have been received any better. The music as a whole was still professionally controlled by others even though the members of the show/group had a little more input. It had it's core / built-in audience and maybe some of them were growing up and moving onto other things like all fads. When Headquarters came out, the music industry sound was changing. I almost wonder what things would have been like if the show had come about a year earlier in that something like Headquarters fits in more with the mainstream pop music sound of the summer of '66 than it does the summer of '67.

The show really fueled the sales and you can see how things drop off dramatically once the show is off the air (save for reruns but by then I contend that the 'fad' was long since past). Not to mention the quality of what was being released had diminished.

I've talked about this with a friend of mine and the interesting thing IOO is that the music which was the most heated point of contention with the project seems to be what average fans really remember. The show kinda seems secondary and dated to some.

I wonder if anyone at the time could envision how much of an impact the project would have, that it would take on a life of it's own, and that we'd still be talking about it 45 years later. They knew what they were doing when they picked these guys. It's always been a fascinating story to me.

lol well good for you! but as i said hmmm whatever!:rolleyes:

Do you think that had more to do with the 'fad' aspect of the Monkees and not because of how it was produced or controlled? Maybe the project just peaked right around that time.

I don't think Kirshner getting canned had any impact on how the music was distributed (meaning without his control the albums weren't in as many stores which would equal fewer sales). Not to mention, I don't think an album of Kirshner approved songs (drek like "If I Learned to Play the Violin") would have been received any better. The music as a whole was still professionally controlled by others even though the members of the show/group had a little more input. It had it's core / built-in audience and maybe some of them were growing up and moving onto other things like all fads. When Headquarters came out, the music industry sound was changing. I almost wonder what things would have been like if the show had come about a year earlier in that something like Headquarters fits in more with the mainstream pop music sound of the summer of '66 than it does the summer of '67.

It seems that the advent of color TV shows started an overall decline in everything. TV shows got crazier, music got crazier, public behavior got crazier. It's been slowly all downhill since about 1967, although things stayed mostly decent till about 1977, and it's just gotten worse since then.

The decline of society and manners in general also had something to do with it. Plus, the networks are gonna push what sells and if crude, crappy shows are what sells, then that's what they'll put out there.

I can remember when words like "penis" and "ass" were verboten on American TV. Now they're commonplace.

A friend and I were talking about Family Guy the other day and his assessment of the show nailed it for me: Lowest Common Denominator Entertainment.

And let us not forget the fact that "reality" shows have taken over in such a big way.

As TV gets worse, I'd just as soon go on the internet more or read.

Just my opinion but can we please stay on topic here? I look to these boards from time to time to read some good dialog on topics. These threads that constantly dissolve into suggestions that all tv is junk today are a yawn. Not to mention the fact that it isn't true. True there are some really bad shows out there but there always have been. There is a lot of TV being produced today which is fresh, honest, and challenging and is allowed to be so because things have loosened up a bit.

Let's just assume we're all fans of an older shows because we are posting in threads about older shows.

Unless you feel Mike's rebellion is a direct or indirect cause for the decay in modern society, can you please offer something of substance to the topic at hand?

Threads often tend to not stay on topic. No one does it intentional, it just happens natural during the flow of conversation. As responses are posted another topic eventually gets introduced into the discussion. The way I see it, whatever the thread whatever the topic, people are posting what's on their mind and it's all good to me.

Regarding the state of current TV, the main problem I have with it is how indecent it has become. The sitcoms are in poor taste, the dramas and cop shows are overly violent and filled with foul language. Any show from the 50's and 60's, and most shows from the 70's were done in far better taste compared to the junk on TV from the 80's up to today.

I don't know if The Monkees producers scolded Mike Nesmith, but Mike seems to be the most outspoken of the four guys in the group so it's possible there may have been some problems. As far as I know, Mike hasn't participated in Monkees concerts for a long time, it's only the three other guys Micky, Davy and Peter.

It's ancient history now but here's what I never understood with Nesmith. The ad that went out for the 4 insane boys to star in a TV series about a band never said anything about being able to play an instrument, the whole premise was that they were looking for 4 to play a band, it so happened that peter and mike were so called musicians but that was not required. So Nesmith decides to make a strong play after a season and after a 250K (over usd 1 million in today's terms) check was laid in his hands. IMO he overstepped in every way shape and form that was imaginable at the time, but then again if he didn't we don't know them as we do and history does now, but again IMO he had no business doing what he did. In the screen tests not one time is being able to play an instrument mentioned as a requirement to get the part.
I enjoy the band, like the music, like the few tunes Nesmith put out as a monkee but think he is a bit weird and arrogant. He is a lot like Paul McCartney in demeanor and off the wallness but of course not as talented of course. Again not dissing Nesmith but I think he was wrong in what he did, but as it turns out pretty glad he did.

It's ancient history now but here's what I never understood with Nesmith. The ad that went out for the 4 insane boys to star in a TV series about a band never said anything about being able to play an instrument, the whole premise was that they were looking for 4 to play a band, it so happened that peter and mike were so called musicians but that was not required. So Nesmith decides to make a strong play after a season and after a 250K (over usd 1 million in today's terms) check was laid in his hands. IMO he overstepped in every way shape and form that was imaginable at the time, but then again if he didn't we don't know them as we do and history does now, but again IMO he had no business doing what he did. In the screen tests not one time is being able to play an instrument mentioned as a requirement to get the part.
I enjoy the band, like the music, like the few tunes Nesmith put out as a monkee but think he is a bit weird and arrogant. He is a lot like Paul McCartney in demeanor and off the wallness but of course not as talented of course. Again not dissing Nesmith but I think he was wrong in what he did, but as it turns out pretty glad he did.

You're right -- the four were hired as actors, not musicians.

However, the producers were making it look as though the four Monkees were playing all the instruments on the first two albums. No session musicians were credited and to the public, the Monkees were presented as a band.

Yet, while they were a "band," they had no say in the decision-making process. Their second album, More Of The Monkees was released without the band being notified of its release and I can see where some of Nesmith's frustration comes from. After all, if everything is credited to the "band," shouldn't they have had some input into the creative process?

Ultimately, the producers did support the Monkees, and we got two great albums as a result. Headquarters (which was played by all four Monkees) and Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones Ltd (which was a mix between the Monkees and session players).

Their second album, More Of The Monkees was released without the band being notified of its release and I can see where some of Nesmith's frustration comes from.

I don't know if I believe the story that has circulated about this album anymore. It makes for a good story I just don't know how true it is. I'm going totally off of memory here so bear with me. I think Peter has said on more than one occassion that they didn't know the second album was out and had to go to the store to buy it while they were on tour somewhere. In fact that quote may be in Andrews book.

I don't have it in front of me but aside from the Hawaii concert, they didn't tour proper until the summer of '67 I believe by which time More of AND Headquarters were on the shelves.

Also in late '66 or early '67 Andrews book mentions the Monkees are doing an appearance on a local radio show and giving away copies of the next album (which at that time would have been 'More of...'). If that is the case, then the legend surrounding the knowledge of the release of this album gets a little cloudy for me.

I agree with you. I would not change history because we wouldn't have this great story not to mention some great songs but it has always been odd to me how Mike pushed them to become a real band. In the earliest sessions, Davy isn't even there which is evident when you listen to the 'sessons' CDs of Headquarters, he's in NYC cutting 'She Hangs Out' 'Love to Love' etc. So they do Headquarters and by the time they start the sessions for Pices - Mike seems to lose interest in playing as a self-contained unit. Now granted the time wasn't there to do all that between filming and concerts but it seems like he broke the system, then used it to his personal advantage and left the other three hanging out to dry a bit. Just my thoughts...

Peter Tork said he lost interest in being a Monkee after Headquarters, when the group went into what he called "mixed mode," which meant the individual Monkees were doing their own tracks with session musicians.

That is the ironic thing about it. They (well mostly Mike and to a lesser extent Peter) fight for this independence and then at the end of the day, it didn't seem like it mattered all that much to the people who were criticizing them. There didn't seem to be any fanfare (at least not that I've seen) that they played on Headquarters.

I wonder though, with the TV show being the top priority - there probably just wasn't time to be as 'musical' as they could and by the time they did have the time, they were losing interest in one another.

While I find that period of their career fascinating (I'm talking the Birds the Bees and the Monkees) it's really hard to find anything commercial in that pile of tunes they produced on their own.

While again the legacy they left is just fine by me, it is a shame that both sides couldn't give a little and compromise more.