...Or was it just time to separate him from the show? I read an article where he was happy to be moving on from the sitcom, but of course he could've been just saying that...

http://www.rhodaonline.com/david_groh_bio.jpg

...Or was it just time to separate him from the show? I read an article where he was happy to be moving on from the sitcom, but of course he could've been just saying that...

http://www.rhodaonline.com/david_groh_bio.jpg
I herd the producers on the show just thought the charactor Rhoda worked better being single then married. She felt bad for David but they remained friends.

...Or was it just time to separate him from the show? I read an article where he was happy to be moving on from the sitcom, but of course he could've been just saying that...

http://www.rhodaonline.com/david_groh_bio.jpg
I'm sure he wasn't let go for doing a bad job. It was just decided that Rhoda shouldn't be married anymore and there was no place for him anymore on the show.

Consider that he was laid off, not fired.

Yes!

They trashed his character too and made it seem like he never wanted to be married to Rhoda which was such garbage.

Yes!

They trashed his character too and made it seem like he never wanted to be married to Rhoda which was such garbage.

I was sad to see Rhoda and Joe divorce!! :( I liked Joe and thought it was nice that Rhoda found a good guy! :) But than I still liked the show without Joe ! Rhoda moved on nicely! She was a strong woman! ;)

But yeah, it was kind of a shame for David Groh! :(

I was sad to see Rhoda and Joe divorce!! :( I liked Joe and thought it was nice that Rhoda found a good guy! :) But than I still liked the show without Joe ! Rhoda moved on nicely! She was a strong woman! ;)

But yeah, it was kind of a shame for David Groh! :(

If they went their separate ways mutually it would have been one thing. But it seemed like he just randomly dumped her for no solid reason. Kind of like Ann Romano trying to "find herself" out of her own marriage.

She was a strong woman to be sure but I just don't like how he left her. It didn't seem to make any sense. What was he specifically disenchanted with when it came to her? He just wanted to be "free" I guess to explore his options. They made his character seem suddenly a jerk so as to prop her character up. :(

This song reminds me of their random breakup.

ABXtWqmArUU

If they went their separate ways mutually it would have been one thing. But it seemed like he just randomly dumped her for no solid reason. Kind of like Ann Romano trying to "find herself" out of her own marriage.

She was a strong woman to be sure but I just don't like how he left her. It didn't seem to make any sense. What was he specifically disenchanted with when it came to her? He just wanted to be "free" I guess to explore his options. They made his character seem suddenly a jerk so as to prop her character up. :(

This song reminds me of their random breakup.

ABXtWqmArUU


Yeah I guess the writers thought Rhoda as a character was better to be unlucky in love! Even after finding a nice guy and being married , it wasn't to work out!!:( Sad cause yes it made a nice guy have to become a jerk! :( And sad for Rhoda too, cause as strong, pretty, intelligent , funny / good personality as she was and didn't NEED a man to validate her. Maybe she wanted to settle down, not have to deal with BS and the dating scene anymore!! :( And her and Joe would have had BEAUTIFUL children together!! ;)

Yeah I guess the writers thought Rhoda as a character was better to be unlucky in love! Even after finding a nice guy and being married , it wasn't to work out!!:( Sad cause yes it made a nice guy have to become a jerk! :( And sad for Rhoda too, cause as strong, pretty, intelligent , funny / good personality as she was and didn't NEED a man to validate her. Maybe she wanted to settle down, not have to deal with BS and the dating scene anymore!! :( And her and Joe would have had BEAUTIFUL children together!! ;)

Yes, their kids would have been BEAUTIFUL and they would have been very happy together but the writers I guess felt there needed to be this kind of forced conflict to make the show interesting

David Groh deserved a lot better but he was a good sport about the whole thing apparently.

And you are so right about Rhoda too. :wave:

The problem was the writers didn't know how to write for a character that was happily married. They only knew how to make someone's life struggles funny. Not that they weren't good at that, but in their minds, happy didn't equal funny.

The Producers ruined a top 10 show by separating them. I watched it every week the first 2 years but after that very rarely. As I said in another thread, you can't build that wedding up and make it a national event only to tear it apart a few years later. The public felt cheated. :ohno:

The problem was the writers didn't know how to write for a character that was happily married. They only knew how to make someone's life struggles funny. Not that they weren't good at that, but in their minds, happy didn't equal funny.

David Groh arguably had very little charm or charisma. He also arguably didn't have much in the way of any comic chops, which wasn't necessarily an issue since Joe was usually the straight man who fed Rhoda her lines. But they also made Joe very gruff and quick to anger (and they also did something that they hadn't done that much with Rhoda - make her combative). So without that charm or comic ability, Groh had a hard time diffusing Joe's unlikable nature. As a result, it was hard to want to spend time with the character, and because Rhoda was so beloved, you wanted her with someone who deserved her.

On YouTube now there are basically the four (or 4 1/2 seasons of the show). I want to make an OP of my thoughts of the show, now seeing them as an adult ( the show came on when I was young child of 10) and my thoughts. I still will.

I didn’t much like Joe the character. Most of the time he seemed angry, jerky and unkind. But this is how the writers made his character. I think that the writers of the show wanted a quick payoff of Rhoda getting married to this man for high ratings (and succeeded mightly) but then didn’t know what to do with the dynamic of the marriage. It was like the writers said “Oops we made a bad mistake, Rhoda should be single again) It wasn’t Groh’s fault, he is a player and he had to read his lines and he was great at it. But Joe the character was usually a jerk but there was some kindness and thoughtfulness to him).

I don’t know why the writers got “cold feet” and did what they did. There was a lot of material for two married people with problems and different personalities to resolve them. A lot of the show was between her sister Brenda and her mother Ida. A lot of the show could have been about a 35 year old first married woman with a man she knew for a short time and went from there. I married my wife after knowing her three months. Been married 18 years. I am American and she is Chinese so there are a lot of differences there, much more than Rhoda and Joe.

The fans went WTF when the two divorced. The show took a wrong direction and the ratings showed it. Groh didn’t want to quit the show I believe (from what I have read in YouTube comments) the writers wanted him gone. Groh’s character showed a lot of kindness to Rhoda. He is what I call a “big city guy” a New Yorker and so was she. But in the end in hindsight this was forgiven and showed a man (Groh) who wanted a girlfriend and not a wife. It went a direction the very good writers wanted to take. It was a gamble and arguably it failed. They should have stayed together and made a better show.

Also Julie Kavner was foxy.

The public story on what transpired doesn't add up. The producers always become the bad guys in these situations, the star has to keep their hands clean (that goes with the territory). Harper was no wallflower, she made additional salary demands between the first and second season of Rhoda, and we all know what went on with respect to her next series, Valerie. Harper was not only the star of Rhoda, but the series was a top 10 smash the first two seasons. Producers are business people, you don't start making major changes to show that is a hit with the audience without full knowledge and approval of the star. There was a story Suzanne Pleshette would tell, she called Bob Newhart to discuss a change in direction under consideration for The Bob Newhart Show. The plan for the next season was for the couple to have a baby on the series, Bob responded to her, who are the planning to cast in the role of Bob next season, long story short, no baby. In addition to Harper, the network has a seat at the table and the network people tend to be very conservative, and they would normally be very reluctant to fool with such a popular series in this manner. Keep in mind the fact that while there had been other divorced characters on TV before (Lou Grant and his wife for example), the audience had been with this couple since the beginning, and this couple was the main focus of the show. I don't think the network would have OK'd it without the star not only on board but maybe pushing the angle.

Divorce is a very depressing topic to introduce into a comedy series, and to have to play out in real time, the series never recovered from it. I know David Groh wasn't funny, and it probably would have been better for Rhoda to be single and unattached from the start of the series, but the series was so successful in the first two seasons, the solution turned out to be a cure that was worse than the disease.

I don't mean to talk about another show on a Rhoda thread but it is on the same subject sort of! Not that Rob Reiner was fired or anything because Mike and Gloria had already left NY and went to California in All in the family, Rob and Sally leaving the show. And at this point it was already Archie Bunkers place, not All in the family anymore ! But I hated the way Mike was portrayed , he was made to look like the bad guy , leaving Gloria for another woman !! I wish it could have been a more amiable divorce, just the two drifting apart or something! A shame that they had to have Mike be an A** , what was the point ?, they had been off the show for years!? I know it had to be explained why Gloria came back to NY , to star in her own spinoff series Gloria. But as ? said did they really have to make Mike be the bad guy?:confused:

Same of course what they did to MacKenzie Phillips , even worse! Really making Julie awful by abandoning her baby and Husband! :(

It seems like the producers made a decision to marry Rhoda off too quick and then they turned around and did it again with divorcing them too quick. Yes, the show never fully recovered. The divorce was melancholy and somewhat depressing enough. Having Rhoda working in a broken down costume shop with a mediocre work related supporting cast did not help too much. When the producers changed, some of the humor and situations were becoming contrived and somewhat silly. They should have had her take on something more lively and exciting with a better supporting cast in the workplace to energize the series.

Season 3 was also a mess due to the absence of Nancy Walker, and Anne Meara couldn't fill the void. Season 4 was an improvement over Season 3, and I actually like Season 4 of Rhoda the most.

The rough edge to the Joe character wasn't David Groh's acting. It's the fact the writers decided to cast him as a guy who demolished buildings for a living.

Facts are facts--season one the show was number 6 in ratings and season 2, number 7. If you have a minor character problem, you tinker around the edges, you don't do a radical thing like ditching the marriage. Why not? It's a hit show! I'm surprised CBS didn't put their collective feet down.

Let's say the producers don't like Joe's rough edges--have him decide to change careers. You even get a few scripts out of that.

It was a gigantic bungle. Season 3 plunged to #32 and only made a minor recovery for the fourth season.

As far as the original question of the thread, it all depends on how his contract was written. In all likelihood he didn't have a long-term contract. If he was contracted season to season, it was within their rights to not renew it.

(Edit: I didn't see the previous post re Nancy Walker and season 3--I'd forgotten about that. Losing her for that season was a double-whammy.)

Canceling the Joe character is a bungle right up there with losing Farah Fawcett for Charley's Angels, and killing off Tina Louise in Dallas's first season.

It's totally true about tinkering around the edges. They could have separated, but still interacted, and then there could have been all sorts of story lines about them sabotaging eachother's dates.

Or. . . .have them have a child, or adopt a child (so you can get all those cute lines).

Or move to an apartment building that they bought (and fill it with zany characters).

But removing Joe was just ridiculous, the Gary Levy character was great, but faded after a while. By his last episodes, he was always paired off with Brenda, or sitting on a couch to the side.

Since this wasn't a family show, the marriage wasn't going to work. Should of just fell back on an cliche and killed him off. That way, both parties could have walked away with clean hands. And since he worked in demolition construction, wouldn't been a real stretch from reality. Heck, they could even made it a heroic death.

All that hype for the wedding episode and they dont even stay together

All that hype for the wedding episode and they dont even stay together
Like 50% of all weddings . . . haha

A friend of mine told me that he heard that David Groh was very unlikable, and that's why they decided to write him off the show. I hope that wasn't the case.

As the odd man out, I would say Groh was unjustly HIRED.

Let's face it - he was a great looking guy, but was not a comedic actor (he did better in dramas). He really wasn't likeable as a character, and he had no chemistry with Harper.


I'm not sure if many know, but he was not the first choice to play 'Joe'. They wanted Judd Hirsch (who would later play her boyfriend in season 4) - when he auditioned, he had great chemistry with Harper. But when they finally offered JH the role, he had already signed up for a Broadway play - and thought it would be unprofessional to leave the play and join the series, so he passed. I had read they also offered the role to Paul Sands (who guest starred on TMTMS) but Sands had other projects lined up at the time. So Groh was their third choice, and he got the role.

I also read that Groh was upset for a long time (not with Harper, but with the writers) for writing him off. The poor guy had just bought an expensive home in the mountainside - a home he had his heart set on for a long time - thinking he was solid on 'Rhoda'. A few weeks after he bought it, he got the news he would be out of work. I believe he was able to keep his home, though, through other acting jobs.

As the odd man out, I would say Groh was unjustly HIRED.

Let's face it - he was a great looking guy, but was not a comedic actor (he did better in dramas). He really wasn't likeable as a character, and he had no chemistry with Harper.


I'm not sure if many know, but he was not the first choice to play 'Joe'. They wanted Judd Hirsch (who would later play her boyfriend in season 4) - when he auditioned, he had great chemistry with Harper. But when they finally offered JH the role, he had already signed up for a Broadway play - and thought it would be unprofessional to leave the play and join the series, so he passed. I had read they also offered the role to Paul Sands (who guest starred on TMTMS) but Sands had other projects lined up at the time. So Groh was their third choice, and he got the role.

I also read that Groh was upset for a long time (not with Harper, but with the writers) for writing him off. The poor guy had just bought an expensive home in the mountainside - a home he had his heart set on for a long time - thinking he was solid on 'Rhoda'. A few weeks after he bought it, he got the news he would be out of work. I believe he was able to keep his home, though, through other acting jobs.


A point on the Paul Sand comment, he had his own show in development the same time Rhoda was in development, the two series both from MTM premiered 5 days apart in September of 74 on CBS, so I doubt Paul Sand was ever in play for the part of Joe.

Hindsight is 20/20, Rhoda probably would have been a better show if she hadn't been married right at the start of the series, but that said it was number 6 in the rating during its first season, and number 7 during its second season. My point, the numbers suggest that Groh wasn't that much of a problem. I suspect that Harper was dissatisfied, Brenda was now more Rhoda and that character was getting the laughs. To correct this Rhoda needed to be single again and divorce (you couldn't make her a widow) was the only way out. The decision was bad one that's for sure, the show never recovered, and if I was a betting man I would put the blame on Harper. Like it or not Rhoda was too far along to make the change made, other options should have been explored.

I never knew Judd Hirsch was up for the role, that's interesting trivia, I think he dodged a bullet.

I watched the whole series of Rhoda a couple of months back.

Concerning the Groh character, to me he was angry most of the time. Almost intimidating. He had his friendly side and could be a nice guy, but he just again, seemed angry. This sort of played itself out when the couple seperated and he admitted to her that he never wanted to be married in the first place.

Does anyone else thinks he looks like the English singer Tom Jones?

I think the whole premise of the show was wrong. Rhoda should have been a swinging partner for Starsky and Hutchison. She could've been with Huggy Bear too just to keep the show interesting.

I am sorry, but I don't think any man could have married Rhoda and live happily ever-after. Rhoda was too divergent, independent and the part that was funny to the audience but not me -Rhoda couldn't make up her mind and it drove Joe nuts.

It was a big mistake, and yes it was unfair to David Groh.

The show was a solid ratings winner for the first two seasons. Whether it was Harper or the show runners who engineered the breakup, it was a big backfire.

I agree it was a mistake to marry her so quickly; it might have made an interesting finale to the series. Although the wedding episode itself was a classic.

The show became kind of aimless after the breakup, especially with the loss of Nancy Walker--Rhoda and Ida had such classic scenes and played so well together. Yes, she returned but by then the audience had moved on.

To begin so strong and whimper out without finishing its final season was a sad ending for a show with such promise.

Why wouldnt a man want to marry Rhoda? I would.

First, Rhoda was beautiful.

Second, she is independent who has her own job(s) and takes care of herself.

Her mother however was a pain in the ass.

A point on the Paul Sand comment, he had his own show in development the same time Rhoda was in development, the two series both from MTM premiered 5 days apart in September of 74 on CBS, so I doubt Paul Sand was ever in play for the part of Joe.



I wonder if after auditioning for 'Rhoda', MTM saw something in him and offered him his own show, rather than playing second fiddle to Harper ?

I wonder if after auditioning for 'Rhoda', MTM saw something in him and offered him his own show, rather than playing second fiddle to Harper ?

Possibly, plus that MTM show episode he was in, in season 1. One of the better episodes of that season. Of course, that episode was, at that time, way back in 1970.

I wonder if after auditioning for 'Rhoda', MTM saw something in him and offered him his own show, rather than playing second fiddle to Harper ?

I don't know, but if I had to guess I would say no. Sand seemed to turn into the Robert Morse of the early 70's. The people in the business thought more of him than the public. He won a Tony in 70-71 for a production I never heard of called "Paul Sills' Story Theatre". This production really connected with the MTM people, in addition to Sand, Valerie Harper, Richard Schaal and Peter Bonerz appeared in this show which had toured beginning the summer of 68. Sand also appeared on the Carol Burnett Show, and he was in an early episode of The Mary Tyler Moore Show. It was one thing to give him his own show but exactly who was he, how does he rate a series where his name goes in the title of the show, the series official title was "Paul Sand in Friends and Lovers". With respect to the series itself:

There was a feeling at the network level and at the production end that the show didn't work. Penny Marshall who was in the cast had the wrong part, she knew and James Brooks came to realize that Penny should have been the female lead. There was also a sense that the talents of Sand did not match the series structure, in other words he was not well positioned talentwise to be a straight man, that wasn't his skill set.

I think Hirsch would have made the ideal 'Joe'. Unfortunately, from what I had read, hey took a while auditioning actors and by the time they offered him the role, he had committed to a Broadway show - and he had no desire to back out of his commitment.

Paul Sand is one of the most boring actors ever.

I liked Sand's 1970 episode of TMTMS as an IRS auditor, I found it memorable. That remains the main thing I remember him from. I was aware of his series though I'm sure I never saw it back then.

Regarding his short-lived series, in fact incorporating his name into the title made it stand out among other sitcoms in its own way.

I think the actor was miscast, but the writers totally made him a jerk in S3 and that wasn’t the actor’s fault.

It must have been a money issue, with Valerie demanding a bigger raise for being the star of a top 10 show for 2 years in a row. I think it came down to Valerie making an ultimatum of finding more dough or walking away. I think that situation best describes the sudden departure of Groh. They probably paid a severance fee to break his contract and Groh did his best not to feed the tabloid monsters.

This happened on other shows every time the star demanded a pay increase, other characters were let go or had the screen time/episodes reduced.

Creator Allan Burns on the situation:

https://youtu.be/XYRFoRdjwDc?si=VxoqtS_S770f_Y73

Creator James Brooks, beginning around 4:00:

https://interviews.televisionacademy.com/interviews/james-l-brooks?clip=49344

It seems like they think that they went to a wedding too quickly, and that once they decided to do it the husband should have been a true co-lead.