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After almost a decade in Hollywood as the head of UPN and the CW, CW entertainment president Dawn Ostroff may be going back to New York. I hear Ostroff would be leaving the CW at the end of her contract in June to relocate to New York with her kids. While the decision is not final, sources indicate that Ostroff is leaning heavily in that direction and is expected to make it official early next year.

CW has never been great (don't get me started on losing The WB), but I don't even think her departure could make the CW a major force in network television. They have had five seasons...IMO, the name/brand is ruined...nevermind, heck, there was never anything to ruin!

The main problem with The CW, and I think that I've said this several times before, is that Dawn Ostroff treated it like she was still at Lifetime. She really came across as sexiest and narrow-minded by proclaiming that she would only target young women. It didn't help that the promotional campaigns for The CW, often focused seemingly, on sex, meleodrama and materialistic things.

Let someone with ties to the Parents Television Council take over!

The main problem with The CW, and I think that I've said this several times before, is that Dawn Ostroff treated it like she was still at Lifetime. She really came across as sexiest and narrow-minded by proclaiming that she would only target young women. It didn't help that the promotional campaigns for The CW, often focused seemingly, on sex, meleodrama and materialistic things.

CW is supposed to be a younger version of lifetime, things won't change

i wonder what wil be their hit show now that smallvilleis laeving? i know supernaturl is still popualr. i wonder if they make a new superman show with tom weling.

Let someone with ties to the Parents Television Council take over!


:lol:

:lol:

What's so funny? :confused:

The main problem with The CW, and I think that I've said this several times before, is that Dawn Ostroff treated it like she was still at Lifetime. She really came across as sexiest and narrow-minded by proclaiming that she would only target young women. It didn't help that the promotional campaigns for The CW, often focused seemingly, on sex, meleodrama and materialistic things.Agreed. I don't like the direction the channel started taking with shows such as Gossip Girl, 90210, etc. Just awful. I do not think The CW can be brought back - but can you bring something back that never really was?

And....how many young girls like those horrid green colors? They are absolutely terrible. I can't believe two respectable companies like CBS and Warner are behind this disaster. This makes UPN look interesting!

Smallville doesn't really fit CW anymore. I doubt we'll see anything similar on there.

In general, the main problem with Dawn Ostroff is that she treated The CW with a niche, basic cable mentality (like she was still at Lifetime as I said before). She took a fairly golden opportunity with the merger of The WB and UPN and completely botched it and watered it down. Miss Ostroff really lacked common sense in terms of what the target demographic for The CW should be. You don't program the schedule based on your own personal interests for the most part (at least if I were running a major TV network).

i wonder what wil be their hit show now that smallvilleis laeving? i know supernaturl is still popualr. i wonder if they make a new superman show with tom weling.
The Vampire Diaries is their highest rated show now. It's actually pretty awesome. I just hope Kevin Williamson doesn't abandon it like he did with Dawson's Creek.

In general, the main problem with Dawn Ostroff is that she treated The CW with a niche, basic cable mentality (like she was still at Lifetime as I said before). She took a fairly golden opportunity with the merger of The WB and UPN and completely botched it and watered it down. Miss Ostroff really lacked common sense in terms of what the target demographic for The CW should be. You don't program the schedule based on your own personal interests for the most part (at least if I were running a major TV network).

CW isn't a major network, some cable channels beat it in the ratings

In general, the main problem with Dawn Ostroff is that she treated The CW with a niche, basic cable mentality (like she was still at Lifetime as I said before). She took a fairly golden opportunity with the merger of The WB and UPN and completely botched it and watered it down. Miss Ostroff really lacked common sense in terms of what the target demographic for The CW should be. You don't program the schedule based on your own personal interests for the most part (at least if I were running a major TV network).Agreed. CW is like Lifetime meets ABC Family. They would do better if they didn't try to have such a tight focus. It's sad to see what's left of a once blockbuster channel like The WB has become. The ratings for The CW are not improving....I wonder what their next move will be.

I think the next thing there to go will be The CW Afternoon - how long can they offer those two Tyra episodes? Stupid waste of time. They actually used to air some decent shows then. I predict 3-5pm will be given back to locals by the end of next year.

In general, the main problem with Dawn Ostroff is that she treated The CW with a niche, basic cable mentality (like she was still at Lifetime as I said before). She took a fairly golden opportunity with the merger of The WB and UPN and completely botched it and watered it down. Miss Ostroff really lacked common sense in terms of what the target demographic for The CW should be. You don't program the schedule based on your own personal interests for the most part (at least if I were running a major TV network).Ok, do you even pay attention to the ratings of the shows?

While I might have made different choices, I understand that i don't see all the data, nor do I know what are the limits she has to work with.

But people seem to forget that Dawn didn't start with seeking women 18-34 as the primary demo point, nor did she start programming exclusively do that demo point, until the third year of the CW, after two full years of data with the w 18-34 demo being the only bright point among the demos that the shows hit.

When the WB and UPN merged both networks were dying, both for most of their history operated at a loss. She took the most successful shows from both nets, with the exceptions of the critically acclaimed Veronica Mars. She picked urban comedies, male driven properties, female driven shows, and family driven shows and two reality shows one that was successful geared to women one that had a larger male audience (Beauty and the Geek).

The CW started broke, by all media accounts and was only able to green light two scripted shows one a family drama and one a soap, which they held for summer as it tested poorly. The family drama failed miserably.

And what happened, first instead of the larger expected coverage of the nation, they were shocked (both earners and CBS freely admit this), they had less coverage then either UPN or the WB had. Meaning fewer eyes could watch their programs. And most of the shows had larger then normal drops in ratings, which certainly makes since with change of network, schedule changes and loss of coverage.

As for the specific ratings data, adults 18-34 and more specifically women 18-34 were where're the network had most success at. Even the male shows that were popular Smallville and WWE could not manage male numbers even close to the female numbers from shows like Gilmore Girls, One Tree Hill,and TopModel. The online show that managed any ratings success was the stupid ***** Cats show which scored some significant ratings, even in the general audience let alone it's performance among young women.

That takes us to year two, and the CW picks a show geared to men (Reaper), a show geared to women (gossip girls), a family comedy with a male slant (Aliens in America), and a soft wholesome family drama (Life is Wild). Critics called it the strongest set of new shows of any of the networks. With Reaper, Gossip Girls and Aliens in America getting great advanced reviews. And what happened none of the shows took off in viewers and their only success was in adults 18-34, and out of those only women 18-34 with Gossip Girls. With it's small audience it delivered more general adults 18-34, then Smallville their most watched scripted show. Neither Reaper or Aliens could a younger audience nor much of a adult 18-49 audience.

That took us to season three and with a crippling writers strike that hobbled development the CW finally embraced w18-34, both in scripted fare and in extremely cheap reality fare. Also during these years their urban comedies died, getting some terrible ratings.

The one thing that occurred that everyone questions, including myself was giving up WWE. Now it never got great demos, in relationship to it's total viewers, but it did provide year round coverage. But apparently the CW diner paid an arm and a leg for it, or didn't get commercial benefit from it. This is info they have that we don't.

One thing we do know each year media buyers pay more for the female driven shows then a show like supernatural, even. Though supernatural has generally been the number two or three drama for the net in both viewers and adults 18-49, but its never done well in younger viewers. And shows with far, far less viewers and lower adult 18-49 results have sold for more ad dollars. This makes it fairly clear that ad buyers do in fact pay more for adults 18-34, then adults 18-49. We also know that the CW operates at a loss.

So what should Dawn have done. With very little in the way of development dollars, and with producers, and actors earning less producing material for the CW then for the other four networks, and with cable consuming a lot of talent that didn't occur any where near as much when the WB and UPN were still running. So do you try and produce general entertainment, even though to date you have had zero success in that department, and knowing you make less pure viewer with a general audience, thus you need a much, much larger audience. Or do you develop a limited, more focused target that you have had a least some success with, knowing that being a niche is never going to break out the network?

Ok, do you even pay attention to the ratings of the shows?

While I might have made different choices, I understand that i don't see all the data, nor do I know what are the limits she has to work with.

But people seem to forget that Dawn didn't start with seeking women 18-34 as the primary demo point, nor did she start programming exclusively do that demo point, until the third year of the CW, after two full years of data with the w 18-34 demo being the only bright point among the demos that the shows hit.

When the WB and UPN merged both networks were dying, both for most of their history operated at a loss. She took the most successful shows from both nets, with the exceptions of the critically acclaimed Veronica Mars. She picked urban comedies, male driven properties, female driven shows, and family driven shows and two reality shows one that was successful geared to women one that had a larger male audience (Beauty and the Geek).

The CW started broke, by all media accounts and was only able to green light two scripted shows one a family drama and one a soap, which they held for summer as it tested poorly. The family drama failed miserably.

And what happened, first instead of the larger expected coverage of the nation, they were shocked (both earners and CBS freely admit this), they had less coverage then either UPN or the WB had. Meaning fewer eyes could watch their programs. And most of the shows had larger then normal drops in ratings, which certainly makes since with change of network, schedule changes and loss of coverage.

As for the specific ratings data, adults 18-34 and more specifically women 18-34 were where're the network had most success at. Even the male shows that were popular Smallville and WWE could not manage male numbers even close to the female numbers from shows like Gilmore Girls, One Tree Hill,and TopModel. The online show that managed any ratings success was the stupid ***** Cats show which scored some significant ratings, even in the general audience let alone it's performance among young women.

That takes us to year two, and the CW picks a show geared to men (Reaper), a show geared to women (gossip girls), a family comedy with a male slant (Aliens in America), and a soft wholesome family drama (Life is Wild). Critics called it the strongest set of new shows of any of the networks. With Reaper, Gossip Girls and Aliens in America getting great advanced reviews. And what happened none of the shows took off in viewers and their only success was in adults 18-34, and out of those only women 18-34 with Gossip Girls. With it's small audience it delivered more general adults 18-34, then Smallville their most watched scripted show. Neither Reaper or Aliens could a younger audience nor much of a adult 18-49 audience.

That took us to season three and with a crippling writers strike that hobbled development the CW finally embraced w18-34, both in scripted fare and in extremely cheap reality fare. Also during these years their urban comedies died, getting some terrible ratings.

The one thing that occurred that everyone questions, including myself was giving up WWE. Now it never got great demos, in relationship to it's total viewers, but it did provide year round coverage. But apparently the CW diner paid an arm and a leg for it, or didn't get commercial benefit from it. This is info they have that we don't.

One thing we do know each year media buyers pay more for the female driven shows then a show like supernatural, even. Though supernatural has generally been the number two or three drama for the net in both viewers and adults 18-49, but its never done well in younger viewers. And shows with far, far less viewers and lower adult 18-49 results have sold for more ad dollars. This makes it fairly clear that ad buyers do in fact pay more for adults 18-34, then adults 18-49. We also know that the CW operates at a loss.

So what should Dawn have done. With very little in the way of development dollars, and with producers, and actors earning less producing material for the CW then for the other four networks, and with cable consuming a lot of talent that didn't occur any where near as much when the WB and UPN were still running. So do you try and produce general entertainment, even though to date you have had zero success in that department, and knowing you make less pure viewer with a general audience, thus you need a much, much larger audience. Or do you develop a limited, more focused target that you have had a least some success with, knowing that being a niche is never going to break out the network?

I'm not going to overanalyize the ratings from day one. I still don't think that it makes much business sense to run a broadcast network based on a very strict, niche target base. Also, what's your excuse for the serious of bad decisions that Dawn Ostroff made:
*Cancelling Reba even though it was the highest rated show on the WB

*Cancelling Everwood at the expense of a last minute renewal of 7th Heaven

*Meddling into certain shows like Veronica Mars, Life Unexpected, and Nikita

And as I said before, the CW didn't/doesn't really know how to market different shows properly. So what do you expect when certain shows fail. You can't really talk about how Dawn Ostroff didn't start focusing on the female demographic until Year 3, when the first two years were still transtional periods for the WB/UPN to the CW.

Reba wasn't the top rated show on the WB, period. And while its total viewer numbers were above average for the CW (though not much), its adult 18-49 numbers were just average, and its adult 18-34 numbers were poor.

Again based off of media buyers shows that do poorly in adults 18-34 aren't going to be generated as much revenue as shows that have a smaller overall audience if they have younger viewers. Not to mention they already didn't have any programming to air with Reba, as their only other half hour programming was urban comedies and the thought is that the two audiences aren't similar.

Everwood a show I liked (I hated 7th Heaven) got ok, ratings, but if you looked at its lead in and how much its ratings dropped versus its lead in its a no brainer that it didn't have a large stable loyal audience (retention is a factor that all networks use to determine how renewal), and in fact when it aired without lead in its ratings dropped dramatically. Though I only have ratings data for its last season, I can't judge what it did before its final season though that would have no factor on it getting a pick up.

7th Heaven was the WB most watched show (Ugghhh). There is very little statistical data on what a show that's already been labelled as ending would do if picked up again. So it is certainly understandable to pick up the most watched show either UPN or the WB had. And while its demos versus its total audience wasn't great the fact that its audience by WB and UPN standards was huge, makes up a lot.

On the issue of shows.

Lets see Veronica Mars was only on the air because of Dawn. Dawn absolutely loved, loved Veronica Mars. the fact that it made it past its first 13 episodes, let alone a season two and a season 3, is due to Dawn ignoring its ratings and keeping it on the air. The reason the change in season three is the fact its ratings continued to be horrible even with some great lead in thanks to Gilmore Girls. She can't ignore the fact that no matter how much she liked the show or how much the critics liked the show, it performed terribly (and I loved Veronica Mars). Most shows don't get two full years of ratings in the toilet, to try and find an audience let alone two years of being really pampered by a network before they start changing the format. That just doesn't happen. Complaining about VM being missed with by Dawn is utter insanity. Thats the one show you should be thankful she let have two full years, when all the data points to it getting canned before it finishes 13 episodes.

Life Unexpected ( another show I really liked first season) didn't do well int eh ratings, in fact its performance overall is the lowest of any show that got renewed. Again, a show no matter how much you or me like it can't survive with crappy ratings. And thats crappy in comparison to the rest of the CW. They have to try something to get viewers to watch. Thats their literally job.

Nikita. Easy, started strong in viewers and ok in all demos and dropped like a rock. Nikita for roughly the last two months is performing worse then every show (except LUX) in adults 18-49, is doing worse then every show in adults 18-34. And thats with the largest lead in the CW can offer. Sure its total audience is ok (but that too has dropped), but if they are mostly 50 and older the CW doesn't care. They earn very little off of an older audience. You need to have an audience far, far greater to be able to survive with such a large percentage of your viewers over 50 years of age. This isn't CBS, there aren't over ten million people willing to watch the CW. And the tinkering Dawn has ordered due to its dramatic drop in ratings, probably still hasn't made it to the point where we the audience see it on the screen, with the large production window shows have, from start of script to filming, to post production.

Now like I mentioned in my first post, just because I think she gets blamed for things that in reality I don't think are really fair (and more the facts that we as fans want the shows we like regardless of ratings to be on the air and as true to the material as possible) or for her to consider demos (and I hate that demos do rule the airways, but thats the reality of the business and not her fault).

I do have issues with things like the ad campaign (most of which I have found Yuck!, even when they hired people who worked for the WB which I thought marketing wise did so much better then UPN), I disagreed with the whole Monday / Sunday initial schedule of the urban comedies and 7th Heaven and Reba, I have disagreed with many other issues. Like Pilots (but unlike her I don't get testing results or even more importantly budget of those shows, nor do I see any written proposals that writers present to showcase the long term story aspects of a pilot pitch. I also don't see income breakdowns of the shows (which besides demos are the biggest factor in setting ad rates. All I know is that Gossip Girl scores exceptionally well here (and that is the only data point I have ever heard for any show on the CW).

I also would have pushed earlier to lose Sunday as they never had enough shows to cover the schedule. I also really dislike the cheap, cheap reality fare, but I also understand thats due to the CW having very little money, not because they think the shows are good.

I also would really have liked to see the data on the WWE (revenue wise in regards to what the CW got) because even if they lost a little, I think it was worth it just for PR purposes in winning the night occasionally during summer, and bringing up the overall schedules average in viewers and demos. The real downside for the WWE is that any in house ads the CW had really did no good on the WWE, as Saturday no originals, Sunday had family fare (not its target demo so probably not watching in the first place), urban comedies three days later (and again demos show urban audiences really didn't flock to the WWE, that meant that really only a show like Reaper on Tuesday or Smallville and Supernatural 6 days later really shared even some of the same audience, and usually you try and highlight the next night you program or maybe two nights later, not 4 to 6 days later.

WWE no longer fit on The CW. It doesn't belong on a network that is focusing on young females. The audience for WWE is just too different than the audience watching the CW.

I don't understand why the CW is waiting so long to start back with new episodes....no new Vampire Diaries until 1/28. The numbers are going to be awful until then.

One of the biggest problems with the CW is that Dawn Ostroff was ok with certain shows lasting longer than they should have. The only awful show right on the CW is One Tree Hill.

Dawn made a huge mistake back in 2006 by putting 7th Heaven on the CW instead of Everwood.

WWE no longer fit on The CW. It doesn't belong on a network that is focusing on young females. The audience for WWE is just too different than the audience watching the CW.

I don't understand why the CW is waiting so long to start back with new episodes....no new Vampire Diaries until 1/28. The numbers are going to be awful until then.

You're pretty much parroting that same garbage that Dawn Ostroff was trying to spin. Besides that, the CW (UPN used to be the one outlet that outwordly tapped the African American market) purged itself of urban shows (or moving it to the Friday night death slot, just like where Smallville and Supernatural - shows that she didn't "develop"/"make" - are today) like The Game, Everybody Hates Chris, and Girlfriends.

This is going to be the test that decides if the CW can last at all. They need to get somebody in their with vision and a new eye who can help the network create a new identity and hopefully raise ratings.

You're pretty much parroting that same garbage that Dawn Ostroff was trying to spin. Besides that, the CW (UPN used to be the one outlet that outwordly tapped the African American market) purged itself of urban shows (or moving it to the Friday night death slot, just like where Smallville and Supernatural - shows that she didn't "develop"/"make" - are today) like The Game, Everybody Hates Chris, and Girlfriends.
Actually as the network boss of UPN she absolutely gets to lay claim on several of the Urban comedies (Girlfriends predates her though, but Chris and the Game are absolutely shows she picked up and choose to develop). She moved the Urban comedies to Friday after they became the lowest performing night both in demo and viewers for the CW. That isn't something you can rationally blame her for. In fact they lasted on the CW longer then several shows, due to syndication packages and not wanting to appear to cancel all urban shows the same year, even though they all deserved to be cancelled due to very poor ratings on their final year on Monday.

As for WWE while it had great (by the standards of the CW) total viewers its demos weren't anywhere near as high, and tended older then younger (again which generates less revenue). But if it was a typical program on the CW, then it absolutely would still be there. But it isn't. It wasn't produced in house, it had a high license fee, and according to reports there was some thing about how commercials were run and paid that didn't fully benefit the CW. I wish for the life of me I would have saved the industry reports on it, cause I can't honestly remember the details. I want to say (so take with a grain of salt) that either the WWE producers got a certain number of the commercials (meaning no money for those at all to the CW), or they were the ones who sold the commercials blocks (which also would be a negative towards the CW as they couldn't plan ads to benefit the network).

But I still say (and I said it at the time and it still holds, though less so this year as Smallville and Supernatural probably due better with all things being equal for the CW) that even taking a small lose versus its license fee (and remember unlike the rest of the lineup they cant recoup any of the cost off of any off network revenue streams) it would have been worth it for the PR value and maintaining a higher ratings average for the week. Also giving them two hours they didn't have to worry about scheduling.

Right now the CW (and this has been true every year) several shows are going to be saved that's ratings as related to its earnings and cost are going to have to be saved, because they have no means to develop enough shows to replace them.

As for Smallville and Supernatural it certainly makes rational sense to move them. They are aging shows near the end of their life, they don't generate a ton of younger demos thus not a huge amount of upfront ad sales, but they make more then any other shows on the CW off network in both DVD/ Bluray (the two largest sellers) both have good overseas and syndicated packages going. Letting them run until their natural end where it doesn't hurt the network, where it allows them a positive night (when others network have thrown in the towel) and doesn't have any impact of the far more lucrative off network run of either show.

Now what didn't make sense was keeping Smallville last year on Friday when its ratings dropped (and a good part of that was because it had no companion programming) when several shows on the CW truly collapsed. I also question why they never once tried Supernatural out as an original in an 8pm hour or used either programming to counter program against Idol during the Spring. That never made much sense to me.

The WB had always been the more successful network, both in terms of critics, mass appeal and overall demos. It was the only network of the two to ever turn a profit, as it did the year before it shut-down. UPN struggled to create an identity and to find a way to appeal to the masses.

Yes and no, certainly the WB was the only one to operate, even if just once at a profit, and it was far better at generating a brand identity, but UPN was able especially in the early years to generate a show that at least for a while had a vast audience.

Clearly both net lets hurt each other as both never successfully created a full slate.

And this is something the CW is finding even harder as now cable networks have moved strongly into producing original scripted programming.

I don't see, nor have I ever, scene thanks primarily to the migration of cable that the CW could ever succeed as a net let. I don't think anyone could have created a successful network with the loss of coverage, the loss of talent, the lack of development and marketing dollars for the CW to be successful. These huge obstacles would be there for any studio head and are ones a studio head, especially at the start of the CW have to real ability to change.

Yes and no, certainly the WB was the only one to operate, even if just once at a profit, and it was far better at generating a brand identity, but UPN was able especially in the early years to generate a show that at least for a while had a vast audience.

Clearly both net lets hurt each other as both never successfully created a full slate.

And this is something the CW is finding even harder as now cable networks have moved strongly into producing original scripted programming.

I don't see, nor have I ever, scene thanks primarily to the migration of cable that the CW could ever succeed as a net let. I don't think anyone could have created a successful network with the loss of coverage, the loss of talent, the lack of development and marketing dollars for the CW to be successful. These huge obstacles would be there for any studio head and are ones a studio head, especially at the start of the CW have to real ability to change.

i see your points, all valid. I've always felt like they should have just shut-down the UPN stations and left The WB alone, it was successful and they were building towards something.

I wish The WB were still here too, and they could be, IMO. UPN was just bland and unimpressive in presentation (remember the awful logo with the shapes?). There was no personality to the network and it was overall just...not great. The WB was more successful than UPN and the CW.

Heck....UPN didn't even do any kind of sign-off. The WB did a classy sign-off. WB was very well presented. Everwood, Dawson's Creek, Gilmore Girls, One Tree Hill, Smallville, Reba, Supernatural, Charmed, What I Like About You - WB had more "buzz" shows. Did UPN ever have anything besides SmackDown, Girlfriends, the Star Trek revivals, Top Model that got much buzz/publicity?

I don't think CW will last for a long time. Maybe several more seasons. I just don't see how it will be made in to something successful, even with new management. The numbers are not good and I don't really know what they can try to make it something.

I wish The WB were still here too, and they could be, IMO. UPN was just bland and unimpressive in presentation (remember the awful logo with the shapes?). There was no personality to the network and it was overall just...not great. The WB was more successful than UPN and the CW.

Heck....UPN didn't even do any kind of sign-off. The WB did a classy sign-off. WB was very well presented. Everwood, Dawson's Creek, Gilmore Girls, One Tree Hill, Smallville, Reba, Supernatural, Charmed, What I Like About You - WB had more "buzz" shows. Did UPN ever have anything besides SmackDown, Girlfriends, the Star Trek revivals, Top Model that got much buzz/publicity?

I don't think CW will last for a long time. Maybe several more seasons. I just don't see how it will be made in to something successful, even with new management. The numbers are not good and I don't really know what they can try to make it something.

The closest thing that UPN had in terms of a hti were Moesha and The Parkers as well as Girlfriends, but none of those shows ever built into a mass appeal kind of show. they had their niche audience and that was it.