Let's get the essentials out of the way, first, I love The Honeymooners. I own the "Classic 39" boxset. I come here not to rundown The Honeymooners but to suggest that The Honeymooners (and here I'm talking the classic 39) was not a real series but a glorified skit that had it's own platform for one television season. I became concerned that it was being unfairly compared to other series when it was ranked as the 3rd greatest series of all time by TV Guide. TV Squad has it listed as the 5th greatest series of the 50's. I don't believe it deserves a separate ranking from Gleason's variety formatted show from which it came out of and was ultimately folded back into when Gleason returned to the variety format.

The Honeymooners "classic 39" played more like a sketch than a series and to compare it to shows that were envisioned and produced as series is really not fair. A series needs to have greater character development and more detailed plotlines. The visual imaging (sets) need to be complexed and higher quality than what was on exhibit here. For example, the show didn't even have glass or a glass subsitute in the window panes. The cast had only four regular characters and one, Trixie, had virtually nothing to do. She gave Alice and Ed someone to talk to once and awhile and she proved that Ed actually had a wife, but that was it. It's too illogical to imagine that Alice a strong, competent, intelligent woman would do nothing but accept living in circumstances out of the, "hey buddy can you spare a dime" 30's. The logic of The Honeymooners works only as a skit not as a series.

The TV Squad listing had Gleason's vareity series listed as number 11, what I'm suggesting is move the show up a bit and include credit for The Honeymooners. The TV Squad list has other judgement errors which includes listing Your Show of Shows as number 1 instead of I Love Lucy, that is just plain stupid.

..."The Honeymooners" was just a recurring sketch on Gleason's "CAVALCADE OF STARS" when the first one appeared on October 5, 1951 on DuMont. It quickly became the show's "star attraction", becoming more prominent on his CBS variety show beginning in the fall of 1952, where it became even MORE popular. Ten minute "vignettes" eventually stretched into 20-30-40 minutes, and, on special occasions, a full-hour. When Jackie got the offer of creating a weekly half-hour filmed series under Buick's sponsorship for the fall of 1955, he jumped at the chance to become an even bigger producer/packager [he also provided the live half-hour variety series that was paired with "THE HONEYMOONERS" that fall, Tommy & Jimmy Dorsey's "STAGE SHOW"]. But Jackie paid no more attention to staging the "Honeymooners" on film than he did as a "live" segment: the difference was, he was using DuMont's "Electronicam" process {live/film camera hybrid, which could transmit live pictures to a control room while filming the images at the same time};he rarely stopped the action- except to change film magazines in the three cameras shooting the action every 10 minutes. And, he was filming two episodes a week, between August 1955 and February 1956. He could have filmed another season of 39 episodes...but he wanted to return to a live variety format, and "The Honeymooners" reverted to an occasional sketch again in the fall of '56...except when Gleason presented the original "Trip To Europe" stories in early 1957 {he did that, hoping to draw audiences away from NBC's "PERRY COMO SHOW", which he ultimately couldn't, resulting in his show ending in the summer of '57}. Fortunately, he kept virtually all of his variety show kinescopes in storage, so that viewers from the '80s onward could see more than the 39 filmed episodes when the so-called "Lost Episodes" were culled from them and repackaged with the "classic 39"....

As for "TV Squad", their choices don't often parallel with "the majority"...


:tv:

Let's get the essentials out of the way, first, I love The Honeymooners. I own the "Classic 39" boxset. I come here not to rundown The Honeymooners but to suggest that The Honeymooners (and here I'm talking the classic 39) was not a real series but a glorified skit that had it's own platform for one television season. I became concerned that it was being unfairly compared to other series when it was ranked as the 3rd greatest series of all time by TV Guide. TV Squad has it listed as the 5th greatest series of the 50's. I don't believe it deserves a separate ranking from Gleason's variety formatted show from which it came out of and was ultimately folded back into when Gleason returned to the variety format.

The Honeymooners "classic 39" played more like a sketch than a series and to compare it to shows that were envisioned and produced as series is really not fair. A series needs to have greater character development and more detailed plotlines. The visual imaging (sets) need to be complexed and higher quality than what was on exhibit here. For example, the show didn't even have glass or a glass subsitute in the window panes. The cast had only four regular characters and one, Trixie, had virtually nothing to do. She gave Alice and Ed someone to talk to once and awhile and she proved that Ed actually had a wife, but that was it. It's too illogical to imagine that Alice a strong, competent, intelligent woman would do nothing but accept living in circumstances out of the, "hey buddy can you spare a dime" 30's. The logic of The Honeymooners works only as a skit not as a series.

The TV Squad listing had Gleason's vareity series listed as number 11, what I'm suggesting is move the show up a bit and include credit for The Honeymooners. The TV Squad list has other judgement errors which includes listing Your Show of Shows as number 1 instead of I Love Lucy, that is just plain stupid.

This has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever read!!! Saying "The Honeymooners" wasn't a real series but a sketch. Just because it started out that way, doesn't mean it's doomed forever as nothing more than a sketch.. Duster 76 is talking only Classic 39, he says.. Well that was it's own series and one of the best tv series and in my oppion along with many others, the best series of all-time!!! Writers, critics, fans, TV Guide rankings all have pointed this out over the years. Groucho Marx himself has said in a television interview I quote "The Honeymooners is the only real classic on television."
Another thing.. For someone who starts off by saying " I love The Honeymooners. I own the "Classic 39" boxset. I come here not to rundown The Honeymooners," I find it funny since, that's just what duster76 did! I couldn't disagree more with this whole post. Saying I quote again "It's too illogical to imagine that Alice a strong, competent, intelligent woman would do nothing but accept living in circumstances out of the, "hey buddy can you spare a dime" 30's." Yeah..it's called love! It's not believable?? Well maybe we should talk about "I Love Lucy" as if that relationship is believable... All Lucy does is take avantage of her husband Ricky, going behind his back with almost everything, including destroying his career... It's easy to see that she can never be trusted.. She's always crying and doing something to make Ricky's life a headache. I don't think that show is believable, still love the show though, because it's a fictional show stupid! Want to tear apart a classic tv show for it's believability, than watch a 21st century reality show, want better set design, watch "Dynasty." I don't think "I Love Lucy" should be ranked over "The Honeymooners" and I think if anything is stupid about rankings, it's ranking Lucille Ball over Jackie Gleason. Look at the cast of both shows, besides Lucy, who do you have?? Nothing comes close on that show to Art Carney and Audrey Meadows talent. As far as the leads, Lucy vs Jackie... Who's "The Great One?", who plays many different characters, as popular as (Ralph Kramden) is, Reggie Van Gleason III, The Poor Soul, Fenwick Babbit, Charlie Bratton, Rudy and Joe The Bartender all prove how versatile Jackie Gleason was. If we are going to debate and dissect tv shows, I'm sure we can find alot of things to say about EVERY television show ever produced. Saying "The Honeymooners" doesn't work as a series, is like saying, I don't think comedy works well for television or John Lennon & Paul McCartney doesn't work or fit well as song writers! It's fitting to add them, since Gleason/Carney have been considered the Lennon/McCartney of television.

The Honeymooners "Classic 39" 1955–56 season belongs and is considered one of the best tv series of all-time! Want to consider it a sketch... Than talk "Lost Episodes" or "Cavalcade of Stars" Honeymooner sketches. That one season of The Honeymooners "Classic 39" stands out seperate from the others as it's own show.

While I have pointed out Duster 76's judgement errors... Let's consider the following.. He says, "I Love Lucy" not being #1 is just plain stupid... Well here is a post he made ranking his top 5 shows of all-time:

(DUSTER 76'S TOP 5)

1. Seinfeld

2. Green Acres

3. Andy Griffith Show

4. Odd Couple

5. Wings

I have to say Taxi deserves honorable mention.

I like some of those shows, but I'm sure people would have a hard time with someone passing judgements on THE HONEYMOONERS with saying those are his top 5 televisions shows of all-time. :crazy:

Another thing... Alice was in love with Ralph, you could see it was genuine, suggesting Alice isn't believable because she lived the way she did is a dumb point given. In real life, this happens all the time.

Why is it, someone who is alright with "I Love Lucy" being #1 picks apart Ralph & Alice's relationship along with other aspects on the show, but doesn't question how Lucy took advantage of her husband, went behind his back always, made fun of the way he talked, treating him like some outsider, had a fake cry like some 8 year old, but it's believable that her successful husband would stay with her when he was the desire of many women?? I do believe that Ralph & Alice's relationship was more real than Lucy & Ricky. I also think the show was much funnier! That's only an opinion though, but no doubt the show had a better talented cast!!! This Duster76 doesn't even pick "I Love Lucy" in his top 5 either, but thinks it should be listed as #1. I on the other hand, do believe "The Honeymooners" is the best television series of all-time and list it as such, with everything else far behind! You'll never see a show with the talents of Jackie Gleason & Art Carney together on the same show and Audrey was pretty great too! Someone who only owns the Classic 39 set shouldn't make judgement calls on the character development, since the early Honeymooner sketches had a very different character personality and relationship with the characters... Saying "The Classic 39 Honeymooners" is just a continued sketch from "The Jackie Gleason Show" isn't true!

Last item.. If "The Honeymooners" was rated on all the polls on the strenth of including those "Lost Episodes" and Pert Kelton sketches.. I would see a valid point to saying it shouldn't be given credit as it's own show, but "The Honeymooners" is given credit as only running 39 episodes from 1955-56. People are always amazed about that, including Johnny Carson and Larry King, who by the way pick "The Honeymooners" as the BEST SHOW! Even this thread began talking about only the Classic 39... "he only owns that" remember? So the question of the show being a sketch or it's own series comes down to what you are talking about... Classic 39 season?? Than you have to say, it's a real tv show on it's own!

This has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever read!!! Saying "The Honeymooners" wasn't a real series but a sketch. Just because it started out that way, doesn't mean it's doomed forever as nothing more than a sketch.. Duster 76 is talking only Classic 39, he says.. Well that was it's own series and one of the best tv series and in my oppion along with many others, the best series of all-time!!! Writers, critics, fans, TV Guide rankings all have pointed this out over the years. Groucho Marx himself has said in a television interview I quote "The Honeymooners is the only real classic on television."
Another thing.. For someone who starts off by saying " I love The Honeymooners. I own the "Classic 39" boxset. I come here not to rundown The Honeymooners," I find it funny since, that's just what duster76 did! I couldn't disagree more with this whole post. Saying I quote again "It's too illogical to imagine that Alice a strong, competent, intelligent woman would do nothing but accept living in circumstances out of the, "hey buddy can you spare a dime" 30's." Yeah..it's called love! It's not believable?? Well maybe we should talk about "I Love Lucy" as if that relationship is believable... All Lucy does is take avantage of her husband Ricky, going behind his back with almost everything, including destroying his career... It's easy to see that she can never be trusted.. She's always crying and doing something to make Ricky's life a headache. I don't think that show is believable, still love the show though, because it's a fictional show stupid! Want to tear apart a classic tv show for it's believability, than watch a 21st century reality show, want better set design, watch "Dynasty." I don't think "I Love Lucy" should be ranked over "The Honeymooners" and I think if anything is stupid about rankings, it's ranking Lucille Ball over Jackie Gleason. Look at the cast of both shows, besides Lucy, who do you have?? Nothing comes close on that show to Art Carney and Audrey Meadows talent. As far as the leads, Lucy vs Jackie... Who's "The Great One?", who plays many different characters, as popular as (Ralph Kramden) is, Reggie Van Gleason III, The Poor Soul, Fenwick Babbit, Charlie Bratton, Rudy and Joe The Bartender all prove how versatile Jackie Gleason was. If we are going to debate and dissect tv shows, I'm sure we can find alot of things to say about EVERY television show ever produced. Saying "The Honeymooners" doesn't work as a series, is like saying, I don't think comedy works well for television or John Lennon & Paul McCartney doesn't work or fit well as song writers! It's fitting to add them, since Gleason/Carney have been considered the Lennon/McCartney of television.

The Honeymooners "Classic 39" 1955–56 season belongs and is considered one of the best tv series of all-time! Want to consider it a sketch... Than talk "Lost Episodes" or "Cavalcade of Stars" Honeymooner sketches. That one season of The Honeymooners "Classic 39" stands out seperate from the others as it's own show.

While I have pointed out Duster 76's judgement errors... Let's consider the following.. He says, "I Love Lucy" not being #1 is just plain stupid... Well here is a post he made ranking his top 5 shows of all-time:

(DUSTER 76'S TOP 5)

1. Seinfeld

2. Green Acres

3. Andy Griffith Show

4. Odd Couple

5. Wings

I have to say Taxi deserves honorable mention.

I like some of those shows, but I'm sure people would have a hard time with someone passing judgements on THE HONEYMOONERS with saying those are his top 5 televisions shows of all-time. :crazy:



To begin with, I think you are taking this disscussion way too seriously. Read the post again and read the response by TV Knowledge Fan, he adds additional information which illustrates why the Honeymooner sketch was given it's own platform for the 55-56 television season. I think the argument could be made that Jackie's product (for lack of a better term) and that includes his variety series and Honeymooners should be counted as a single entry on the list of the best series of the 1950's and ranked number 2.

As far as my list of the top 5 goes, that list represents my personal taste, my own favorites. That is a different discussion ( I forgot about that comment, I may have ranked Wings too high). Let's say you were putting together a list of the top 10 songs of the 70's, you would attempt to find some objecive criteria (Let's say the Billboard charts) and develop a system that objectively ranks the songs (let's say points per chart position). If you were putting together a list of your 10 favorite songs of the 1970's the only thing that matters is your opinion. Do you see the difference? If I had to objectively pick the best show of the 60's I would probably pick The Dick Van Dyke Show. I like the show, but it wouldn't make my personal top 5.

Again I Love Lucy isn't one of my favorites but it is a landmark series that was by far the single most important show of the 50's, and certainly belongs in any discussion of the greatest shows in TV history.

Let's get the essentials out of the way, first, I love The Honeymooners. I own the "Classic 39" boxset. I come here not to rundown The Honeymooners but to suggest that The Honeymooners (and here I'm talking the classic 39) was not a real series but a glorified skit that had it's own platform for one television season. I became concerned that it was being unfairly compared to other series when it was ranked as the 3rd greatest series of all time by TV Guide. TV Squad has it listed as the 5th greatest series of the 50's. I don't believe it deserves a separate ranking from Gleason's variety formatted show from which it came out of and was ultimately folded back into when Gleason returned to the variety format.

The Honeymooners "classic 39" played more like a sketch than a series and to compare it to shows that were envisioned and produced as series is really not fair. A series needs to have greater character development and more detailed plotlines. The visual imaging (sets) need to be complexed and higher quality than what was on exhibit here. For example, the show didn't even have glass or a glass subsitute in the window panes. The cast had only four regular characters and one, Trixie, had virtually nothing to do. She gave Alice and Ed someone to talk to once and awhile and she proved that Ed actually had a wife, but that was it. It's too illogical to imagine that Alice a strong, competent, intelligent woman would do nothing but accept living in circumstances out of the, "hey buddy can you spare a dime" 30's. The logic of The Honeymooners works only as a skit not as a series.

The TV Squad listing had Gleason's vareity series listed as number 11, what I'm suggesting is move the show up a bit and include credit for The Honeymooners. The TV Squad list has other judgement errors which includes listing Your Show of Shows as number 1 instead of I Love Lucy, that is just plain stupid.

You have GOT to be kidding me... I'm not going to get into details and even acknowledge this remotely as a valid argument... and DizzyDean, you're absolutely correct... this is one of the stupidest things I've EVER read on a message board too, ESPECIALLY this one... lol...

the bottom line is this... the FACT that The Honeymooners ran for only ONE season (39 total shows) and is forever glorified as one of the greatest television SHOWS/SERIES of all-time is something that ONLY The Honeymooners can claim, and just further solidifies the show's amazing legacy, and SPECIAL quality... and anyone who has a problem with that, or even brings up a SO-CALLED debate regarding whether or not The Honeymooners deserves to be compared to other television shows/series who ran for more than one season, is ONLY jealous of this fact... PERIOD...

also, you say to DizzyDean that he's taking it way too seriously which is an UNfair statement against him, so you're kind of hypocritical since you're saying it's unfair to compare The Honeymooners to other television shows/series... if you're going to have that attitude when a fan of the show defends a NEGATIVE point that YOU are trying to claim against The Honeymooners, then don't come in here and post such a ridiculous thread in the first place... we have EVERY right to get as serious as we want to when defending a show which we believe deserves ALL the credit and glory that it has gotten in comparison to other great television shows of its era and of all-time... as Ed Norton once said about going into the sewer... if you're not prepared to go all the way, then don't put your boots on in the first place!

You have GOT to be kidding me... I'm not going to get into details and even acknowledge this remotely as a valid argument... and DizzyDean, you're absolutely correct... this is one of the stupidest things I've EVER read on a message board too, ESPECIALLY this one... lol...

the bottom line is this... the FACT that The Honeymooners ran for only ONE season (39 total shows) and is forever glorified as one of the greatest television SHOWS/SERIES of all-time is something that ONLY The Honeymooners can claim, and just further solidifies the show's amazing legacy, and SPECIAL quality... and anyone who has a problem with that, or even brings up a SO-CALLED debate regarding whether or not The Honeymooners deserves to be compared to other television shows/series who ran for more than one season, is ONLY jealous of this fact... PERIOD...

also, you say to DizzyDean that he's taking it way too seriously which is an UNfair statement against him, so you're kind of hypocritical since you're saying it's unfair to compare The Honeymooners to other television shows/series... if you're going to have that attitude when a fan of the show defends a NEGATIVE point that YOU are trying to claim against The Honeymooners, then don't come in here and post such a ridiculous thread in the first place... we have EVERY right to get as serious as we want to when defending a show which we believe deserves ALL the credit and glory that it has gotten in comparison to other great television shows of its era and of all-time... as Ed Norton once said about going into the sewer... if you're not prepared to go all the way, then don't put your boots on in the
first place!


Did you actually read what was written or just start commenting? I picked The Jackie Gleason TV product (Variety/Honeymooners) as the second best show if the 50's. What part of that don't you understand? The Honeymooners cannot be separated out from the rest of Jack's work which is also top shelf, don't tell me you don't agree with that! No less an expert on The Honeymooners than Gleason himself indicated he was afraid the quality would suffer if he went on to do a second year of The Honeymooners; Jackie also found the format limiting and merged it back into the larger variety show format, doesn't that tell you something? Total Television by Alex McNeil, which is recognized as the definitive resource book on the history of television by papers such as the LA Times, Chicago Tribune, Philadelphia Inquirer, has the following listing under The Honeymooners: "See THE JACKIE GLEASON SHOW".

Also please read the post by TV Knowledge Fan which gives you a little background on the why the skit existed on a separate platform, it might help you to understand what's under discussion here.

To begin with, I think you are taking this disscussion way too seriously. Read the post again and read the response by TV Knowledge Fan, he adds additional information which illustrates why the Honeymooner sketch was given it's own platform for the 55-56 television season. I think the argument could be made that Jackie's product (for lack of a better term) and that includes his variety series and Honeymooners should be counted as a single entry on the list of the best series of the 1950's and ranked number 2.

As far as my list of the top 5 goes, that list represents my personal taste, my own favorites. That is a different discussion ( I forgot about that comment, I may have ranked Wings too high). Let's say you were putting together a list of the top 10 songs of the 70's, you would attempt to find some objecive criteria (Let's say the Billboard charts) and develop a system that objectively ranks the songs (let's say points per chart position). If you were putting together a list of your 10 favorite songs of the 1970's the only thing that matters is your opinion. Do you see the difference? If I had to objectively pick the best show of the 60's I would probably pick The Dick Van Dyke Show. I like the show, but it wouldn't make my personal top 5.

Again I Love Lucy isn't one of my favorites but it is a landmark series that was by far the single most important show of the 50's, and certainly belongs in any discussion of the greatest shows in TV history.

I'll get to answing the statements you've made, first want to make a few comments... Yes, I know "I Love Lucy" should be part of any discussion of the greatest shows in TV history, that's why I was comparing "The Honeymooners" which has a believability problem and all sort of flaws, IN YOUR EYES!!! I also used it since you acknowledge it as being worthy of being #1, even if it isn't on your top list of shows. I do know the difference of a person listing their favorites, compared to their acknowledged list of best shows in history. I just brought up your top tv show list for the fact that you as a television fan didn't feel as strongly for a show that you acknowledged was one of the best ever and that your taste and judgements shouldn't be considered of high caliber. A person's view doesn't have to be in tune with the majority, but if he is going to make judgements about what makes a great series and attacks one of those shows the vast majority loves, well than his opinions and judgements should be questioned. Television has been around how long and "Wings" is your 5th favorite of all-time?? That's why I posted it! I also think some of your comments went over the line of just trying to question whether The Classic 39 is just a sketch. You say you love the show? I can't imagine someone hating the show doing a better putdown like you did on this board.
Now my answers to your points..

TV KNOWLEDGE FAN- Maybe you should read it again, instead of telling the last person to do it! That post didn't back your words up at all, except to give us a history lesson of the show, how it all began and how it became a regular half hour series... All of us diehard Honeymooner fans already know all of this! The question is, does The Classic 39 deserve to be considered a real show by itself... THE CLASSIC 39!!!

You said to last person who replied, I quote " The Honeymooners cannot be separated out from the rest of Jack's work which is also top shelf, don't tell me you don't agree with that!" - I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT! Those great sketches of Reggie Van Gleason III, Charlie Bratton (The Loudmouth), The Poorsoul etc.. Never had their own spinoff, like The Honeymooners! I also can't imagine those running 30 to 60 minutes each episode either! Wasn't "Mama's Family" a sketch on "The Carol Burnett Show" with Vicki Lawrence before it became a series in the 80's? I guess that wasn't really a series either, just still a sketch!

JACKIE GLEASON STATEMENT- You said "Gleason himself indicated he was afraid the quality would suffer if he went on to do a second year of The Honeymooners; Jackie also found the format limiting and merged it back into the larger variety show format, doesn't that tell you something?" - YES! The show limited Jackie, not that the show was limited. Look at it from Jackie's view point... "The Jackie Gleason Show" he gets to do so much more, tell jokes, play many different characters, take breaks and have guest stars, The June Taylor Dancers and be on the air for an hour. With "The Honeymooners" being it's own show, he is limited to being Ralph Kramden and maybe in his mind being second banana to Art Carney, who he says got more laughs and was 90% responsible for the shows success. Jackie is being very generous to Art Carney, who he credits as one of tv's best! As far as Jackie being worried about the quality going down, which you point out as proof the show was a limited sketch... Well as Edward Norton would say, "Proof is in the pudding." The Honeymooners had some of the longest episodes after the Classic 39 ended! The show was so limited, it only ran for well over 100 episodes, many longer than the Classic 39. If you are wondering about the quality... Some of the BEST episodes came later, after Jackie gave reason to ending the Honeymooners.

HONEYMOONER'S JUST A SKETCH- I think this is really proof in itself.. THE HONEYMOONERS EARNED IT! TV shows are just given the title "Series", but "The Honeymooners" came from being just a short sketch and part of "The Jackie Gleason Show", to be one of the best shows of all-time with having a show of it's own and not being just a sketch inside of another show!

BELIEVABILTY - Which was part of your putdown of the show. The irony is "The Honeymooners" was considered one of the only realistic 50's shows dealing with relationships. Not the typical squeaky clean married couple image with their so perfect home and life. Ralph & Alice loved eachother, but we saw anger, passion, seperations etc... Some in interviews years later called Alice the first women libber. The realistic character image was in part because Jackie based the show on real life people and neighborhood he grew up in.

The show rised above being just another sketch, to becoming one of the best shows on it's own during that single year of 1955- 1956 THE CLASSIC 39. When people talk about "The Honeymooners" as being one of the best, if not the best ever, they are talking about one of the Classic 39... When TV Guide lists the funniest tv episodes of all-time, it has listed in the past 2 or 3 episodes... All from the Classic 39. I think "The Lost Episodes" have some of the best ones too, but my point is, if "The Honeymooners" are ranked high as one of the best ever, it's not because of "The Jackie Gleason Show", that only gave it it's start!
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. :lol: Just a little levity.

I'll get to answing the statements you've made, first want to make a few comments... Yes, I know "I Love Lucy" should be part of any discussion of the greatest shows in TV history, that's why I was comparing "The Honeymooners" which has a believability problem and all sort of flaws, IN YOUR EYES!!! I also used it since you acknowledge it as being worthy of being #1, even if it isn't on your top list of shows. I do know the difference of a person listing their favorites, compared to their acknowledged list of best shows in history. I just brought up your top tv show list for the fact that you as a television fan didn't feel as strongly for a show that you acknowledged was one of the best ever and that your taste and judgements shouldn't be considered of high caliber. A person's view doesn't have to be in tune with the majority, but if he is going to make judgements about what makes a great series and attacks one of those shows the vast majority loves, well than his opinions and judgements should be questioned. Television has been around how long and "Wings" is your 5th favorite of all-time?? That's why I posted it! I also think some of your comments went over the line of just trying to question whether The Classic 39 is just a sketch. You say you love the show? I can't imagine someone hating the show doing a better putdown like you did on this board.
Now my answers to your points..

TV KNOWLEDGE FAN- Maybe you should read it again, instead of telling the last person to do it! That post didn't back your words up at all, except to give us a history lesson of the show, how it all began and how it became a regular half hour series... All of us diehard Honeymooner fans already know all of this! The question is, does The Classic 39 deserve to be considered a real show by itself... THE CLASSIC 39!!!

You said to last person who replied, I quote " The Honeymooners cannot be separated out from the rest of Jack's work which is also top shelf, don't tell me you don't agree with that!" - I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT! Those great sketches of Reggie Van Gleason III, Charlie Bratton (The Loudmouth), The Poorsoul etc.. Never had their own spinoff, like The Honeymooners! I also can't imagine those running 30 to 60 minutes each episode either! Wasn't "Mama's Family" a sketch on "The Carol Burnett Show" with Vicki Lawrence before it became a series in the 80's? I guess that wasn't really a series either, just still a sketch!

JACKIE GLEASON STATEMENT- You said "Gleason himself indicated he was afraid the quality would suffer if he went on to do a second year of The Honeymooners; Jackie also found the format limiting and merged it back into the larger variety show format, doesn't that tell you something?" - YES! The show limited Jackie, not that the show was limited. Look at it from Jackie's view point... "The Jackie Gleason Show" he gets to do so much more, tell jokes, play many different characters, take breaks and have guest stars, The June Taylor Dancers and be on the air for an hour. With "The Honeymooners" being it's own show, he is limited to being Ralph Kramden and maybe in his mind being second banana to Art Carney, who he says got more laughs and was 90% responsible for the shows success. Jackie is being very generous to Art Carney, who he credits as one of tv's best! As far as Jackie being worried about the quality going down, which you point out as proof the show was a limited sketch... Well as Edward Norton would say, "Proof is in the pudding." The Honeymooners had some of the longest episodes after the Classic 39 ended! The show was so limited, it only ran for well over 100 episodes, many longer than the Classic 39. If you are wondering about the quality... Some of the BEST episodes came later, after Jackie gave reason to ending the Honeymooners.

HONEYMOONER'S JUST A SKETCH- I think this is really proof in itself.. THE HONEYMOONERS EARNED IT! TV shows are just given the title "Series", but "The Honeymooners" came from being just a short sketch and part of "The Jackie Gleason Show", to be one of the best shows of all-time with having a show of it's own and not being just a sketch inside of another show!

BELIEVABILTY - Which was part of your putdown of the show. The irony is "The Honeymooners" was considered one of the only realistic 50's shows dealing with relationships. Not the typical squeaky clean married couple image with their so perfect home and life. Ralph & Alice loved eachother, but we saw anger, passion, seperations etc... Some in interviews years later called Alice the first women libber. The realistic character image was in part because Jackie based the show on real life people and neighborhood he grew up in.

The show rised above being just another sketch, to becoming one of the best shows on it's own during that single year of 1955- 1956 THE CLASSIC 39. When people talk about "The Honeymooners" as being one of the best, if not the best ever, they are talking about one of the Classic 39... When TV Guide lists the funniest tv episodes of all-time, it has listed in the past 2 or 3 episodes... All from the Classic 39. I think "The Lost Episodes" have some of the best ones too, but my point is, if "The Honeymooners" are ranked high as one of the best ever, it's not because of "The Jackie Gleason Show", that only gave it it's start!
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. :lol: Just a little levity.


I don't think it was Jackie's intention to develop The Honeymooners as a fully realized series. What Jackie wanted to do is to keep The Honeymooners funny. The Honeymooners are funny because it's a sketch, as a sketch it allows the audience to focus on the story at hand without dealing with any larger life issues. Alice and Ralph after many years of marriiage have no children (neither do Ed and Trixie), as a sketch we don't need to deal with that issue as a series it's more difficult to ignore. Jackie addressed the issue so we understand his thinking (arguing in front of kids isn't funny), but that isn't an "in show" answer.

Alice and Ralph have no functioning appliances, no TV, no radio, no phone, no refrigerator, no curtains, as a sketch we don't have to deal with any of that, it's just funny, as a series, well the audience (especially women) don't like things like that. Jackie understood that, he also understood that the series format would not work with this kind of material.

I do not mean in any way, shape or form to put down The Honeymooners. I have the highest regard for Jackie and I fully acknowledge "The Honeymooners" as his greatest creation. I want Jackie's variety show/Honeymooners to be ranked second on the list of the 40 greatest series of the 1950's.

I don't think it was Jackie's intention to develop The Honeymooners as a fully realized series. What Jackie wanted to do is to keep The Honeymooners funny. The Honeymooners are funny because it's a sketch, as a sketch it allows the audience to focus on the story at hand without dealing with any larger life issues. Alice and Ralph after many years of marriiage have no children (neither do Ed and Trixie), as a sketch we don't need to deal with that issue as a series it's more difficult to ignore. Jackie addressed the issue so we understand his thinking (arguing in front of kids isn't funny), but that isn't an "in show" answer.

Alice and Ralph have no functioning appliances, no TV, no radio, no phone, no refrigerator, no curtains, as a sketch we don't have to deal with any of that, it's just funny, as a series, well the audience (especially women) don't like things like that. Jackie understood that, he also understood that the series format would not work with this kind of material.

I do not mean in any way, shape or form to put down The Honeymooners. I have the highest regard for Jackie and I fully acknowledge "The Honeymooners" as his greatest creation. I want Jackie's variety show/Honeymooners to be ranked second on the list of the 40 greatest series of the 1950's.

To tell you the truth, I think that you're confusing YOURSELF with what you're trying to say. The fact that we're even discussing this is just a total joke in the first place... and DizzyDean, PLEASE don't even waste your time replying back because he's clearly unclear with himself, and his own point in this ridiculous thread...

The bottom line is that YOU have your definitions mixed up.... the simplicity of the setting, the characters, the story, etc has NO factor on what the show is... It's a SKETCH on the Jackie Gleason variety show, and a SERIES as its own half-hour show... PERIOD!... the fact that it ran for only one season (and is STILL claimed as one of the greatest TV shows ever) changes that in NO way... and like I said before, if anyone has a problem with that is just jealous of the success of the show in some way shape or form, and CLEARLY that's what your M.O.A. is with this so-called discussion.

To tell you the truth, I think that you're confusing YOURSELF with what you're trying to say. The fact that we're even discussing this is just a total joke in the first place... and DizzyDean, PLEASE don't even waste your time replying back because he's clearly unclear with himself, and his own point in this ridiculous thread...

The bottom line is that YOU have your definitions mixed up.... the simplicity of the setting, the characters, the story, etc has NO factor on what the show is... It's a SKETCH on the Jackie Gleason variety show, and a SERIES as its own half-hour show... PERIOD!... the fact that it ran for only one season (and is STILL claimed as one of the greatest TV shows ever) changes that in NO way... and like I said before, if anyone has a problem with that is just jealous of the success of the show in some way shape or form, and CLEARLY that's what your M.O.A. is with this so-called discussion.


Myspace, The Honeymooners was always a sketch, for one TV season that sketch had it's own platform. It did not perform up to expectations (as per The Complete Directory to Prime Time Network and Cable TV Shows by Tim Brooks and Earle Marsh) and was added back as a feature to a relaunched Gleason variety show the following year. When viewed as I'm suggesting, Jackie's 1950's Variety/Honeymooners show ranks second (in my opinion) after I Love Lucy. I am not putting down the Honeymooners, I consider it Gleason's geatest creation but it is part of a larger picture.

...of a "sketch" that briefly became its own half-hour series....on radio, but not on television- and it wasn't successul outside of its origins as part of a variety show.

Phil Rapp created and wrote a weekly sketch about a married couple that seemed to argue all the time, "The Bickersons", for a radio program, "DRENE TIME", starring Don Ameche and Frances Langford, for the 1946-'47 season on NBC. Of all the elements of that program, "The Bickersons" became the most popular. So popular, when Procter & Gamble cancelled "DRENE TIME" after its only season on the air, the producer, Carlton Alsop, "resold" the series' format [including "The Bickersons"] to Lorillard Tobacco as "THE OLD GOLD SHOW" on CBS for the fall of 1947, again with Ameche & Langford. And again, "The Bickersons" became the most popular segment of that program. And AGAIN, the series was cancelled after one season. Rapp then "leased" the sketch [he owned the rights to it as well] to NBC's "CHARLIE McCARTHY SHOW" for the fall of 1948 as a weekly feature. This time, Frances Langford wasn't available, so Marsha Hunt played "Blanche Bickerson" to Ameche's "John Bickerson" for the remainder of 1948, until Edgar Bergen's series went off the air in mid-season. Then, Rapp set his sights on TV. There were TWO attempts to bring "The Bickersons" to television; one was featured on DuMont's weekly "STAR TIME" variety series during 1950-'51, with Lew Parker as "John" [Don Ameche was under contract to appear in a TV series on "another network"], opposite Frances Langford; that show lasted one season. Then, Don Ameche emceed a brief daytime ABC variety show in the fall of '51 with Frances, and they occasionally revived "The Bickersons" as well. Finally, in the summer of 1951, a weekly half-hour radio edition of "THE BICKERSONS", starring Lew & Frances, was heard on CBS...and wasn't successful enough to return for the fall. It wasn't until 1962 that Phil Rapp successfully revived "The Bickersons", reuniting Ameche & Langford, in two Columbia record albums: "The Bickersons" and "The Bickersons Fight Back" (later repackaged as a double LP, "The Bickersons Rematch"). But it never appeared as its own series on TV.

And, irony of ironies, when Jackie Gleason's "CAVALCADE OF STARS" series on DuMont was planning its opening show of the 1951-'52 season, there was talk of "renting" the sketch from Phil Rapp as an occasional feature. Gleason vetoed that idea, claiming he could create a similar sketch involving a battling married couple without having to depend on Rapp {or pay him for the rights to use it}. That led to Jackie and his writers creating...."The Honeymooners".

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