The case I read the other day on Larry Costine got me thinking. There are people out there who are declared missing, yet no one can say beyond reasonable doubt whether they are suspects or just victims. Of course we all have our theories, but here goes:

Laura Bible & Ashley Freeman - Almost certainly victims. So many things point to those girls either being kidnapped or murdered elsewhere, or both. But a shred of might linger on the most skeptical of all people that they were involved in the murders/fire. Doubtful, but someone out there might think so.

Mike Reimer - The opposite. This guy is likely a suspect. His wife is found dead, his daughter abandoned and he is nowhere to be found. I've always leaned on him being guilty and taking off on his own, but stranger things can happen and he could have been led somewhere to die

Jo (Larry Costine case) - I still can't understand what the reason would be for Jo to murder Larry. But stranger things have happened I guess. Without her available we still have no proof either way whether she is a victim or the actual murderer.

Dub Wackerhagen. I'm leaning towards him being a suspect. It just seems odd that his girlfriend would be killed but that he, a 250 lb trucker, would be kidnapped. I think he's guilty. I hope his son is okay, though.

Ahh, good one with Dub there. Yeah a suspicious case for sure. But the segment never gave any reason as to why Dub would shoot her "6 times" other than he allegedly had a temper.

Personally I think they're dead. I don't know why, I mean perhaps he killed her because in the end a person is more often killed by someone they know and the person they are the closest to.

I think the phone call claiming to be Dub's son Chance is a hoax. Would a 9 year old be able to remember his grandparents phone number? Sure, but why just that one call? Why not more?

Also what disturbs me is how someone wouldn't be able to spot a 6'4" 250lbs man. A man that sze sticks out like a sore thumb in a crowd. If Dub is alive wouldn't he have been spotted by now?

I'm actually in that very small minority that isn't so sure at all Mike Riemer killed Diana Robertson.

Dale Kerstetter is another one. Did he orchestrate that entire fiasco at the plant and make off with the gleanings himself, or was he actually abducted?

Charles Horvath

I'm actually in that very small minority that isn't so sure at all Mike Riemer killed Diana Robertson.

Dale Kerstetter is another one. Did he orchestrate that entire fiasco at the plant and make off with the gleanings himself, or was he actually abducted?

After reading the posts from a few of Dale's family, I do not believe he had a part in it.

I'm actually in that very small minority that isn't so sure at all Mike Riemer killed Diana Robertson.

Dale Kerstetter is another one. Did he orchestrate that entire fiasco at the plant and make off with the gleanings himself, or was he actually abducted?

Yes I do not think Dale had anything to do with it. I would be stunned if he were alive. He looks RIGHT into the camera. The exact same camera that he would know the location of being a security guard. Why would he be so stupid when he didn't have to be? It just doesn't make sense. The culprits could be saying any number of things to Dale (etc. "be calm, no sudden moves, look casual and we'll let you go"). With Dale having the roots he did and his children seemingly loving him the way they talk about him, then you would have to wonder what would posses a man to do such a thing. I just think he is a victim.

I'm actually in that very small minority that isn't so sure at all Mike Riemer killed Diana Robertson.


I don't think he did either.

Hugh Harlan. I subscribe to victim.

Charles Horvath

Charles isn't a suspect in any criminal act. Either he is voluntary missing or dead.

Also what disturbs me is how someone wouldn't be able to spot a 6'4" 250lbs man. A man that sze sticks out like a sore thumb in a crowd. If Dub is alive wouldn't he have been spotted by now?

I agree and I tend to think that way about most missing persons. If they haven't been seen by someone by now, then they are most likely dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockworkhigh
Also what disturbs me is how someone wouldn't be able to spot a 6'4" 250lbs man. A man that sze sticks out like a sore thumb in a crowd. If Dub is alive wouldn't he have been spotted by now?

I agree and I tend to think that way about most missing persons. If they haven't been seen by someone by now, then they are most likely dead.

I don;t think 6'4 250 lbs is that extreme. The weight is about right for that type of frame.

It's not really sticking out so much as will someone that sees your register this guy as fugitive Dub Wackerhagen.

Height is relative, you notice it when someone is standing next to someone else. I would have to imagine that Dub avoids crowds or public places and is staying pretty much in isolation.

If Dub went to Mexico they probably could stay hidden indefinitely. Working on a hacienda or at a bar.

It's not like the case is that well known. Dub is not on the most wanted list.

It's a lot easier to go on the lam than people think.

I don;t think 6'4 250 lbs is that extreme. The weight is about right for that type of frame.

It's not really sticking out so much as will someone that sees your register this guy as fugitive Dub Wackerhagen.

Height is relative, you notice it when someone is standing next to someone else. I would have to imagine that Dub avoids crowds or public places and is staying pretty much in isolation.

If Dub went to Mexico they probably could stay hidden indefinitely. Working on a hacienda or at a bar.

It's not like the case is that well known. Dub is not on the most wanted list.

It's a lot easier to go on the lam than people think.

It's anecdotal, but my ex-husband and my boyfriend are both over 6'4" and between 220-235 pounds. You can lose them in a crowd, trust me.

I wouldn't necessarily write off someone as being dead if no one happens to report them after so many years. Keep in mind we're fans and regular viewers--what may be a familiar face to us is almost definitely not so for the average joe. And of course, appearances can be wildly altered.

I don;t think 6'4 250 lbs is that extreme. The weight is about right for that type of frame.

It's not really sticking out so much as will someone that sees your register this guy as fugitive Dub Wackerhagen.

Height is relative, you notice it when someone is standing next to someone else. I would have to imagine that Dub avoids crowds or public places and is staying pretty much in isolation.

If Dub went to Mexico they probably could stay hidden indefinitely. Working on a hacienda or at a bar.

It's not like the case is that well known. Dub is not on the most wanted list.

It's a lot easier to go on the lam than people think.

Good points, but I will say that Dub fits the stature for about 1% of the world's population. I'm 6'2". If I walk past someone who is 6'4" or taller than me I noticed it personally. This doesn't mean Dub isn't still hiding but he has a distinct disadvantage because if his stats were well known to someone they wouldn't be looking for a 5'6" man

Not strictly confined to the topic, but I've always wondered what happened to Ann Sigmin. She set up Charles Sigmin to be murdered, but did she really abandon Gary Goff after they fled the area, or did Goff dispose of her?

It's anecdotal, but my ex-husband and my boyfriend are both over 6'4" and between 220-235 pounds. You can lose them in a crowd, trust me.

I wouldn't necessarily write off someone as being dead if no one happens to report them after so many years. Keep in mind we're fans and regular viewers--what may be a familiar face to us is almost definitely not so for the average joe. And of course, appearances can be wildly altered.

Good points. :) I think Dub's case could go either way, but I'm leaning more towards him being guilty (especially just by the process of elimination). If he is still alive, he's probably keeping a low profile or might've changed his name.

Chance was 9 back in '93 (I think that's when this happened), so he'd be around 25 now. I do hope he's okay. According to the reenactment, Dub took up for him when Leticia scolded him about leaving the faucet running, so I don't think he'd have killed Chance (then again if he is capable of murder, anything's possible).

I personally don't think it was him that called his grandparents a year later. Dub probably wouldn't keep him captive that long. One of the investigators said to the effect of Dub would blow up in the heat of the moment, but once he calmed down and could think about it, it was totally out of his nature.

Plus (from Chance's perspective) if he was kidnappened and had one shot to make a run for it, why call grandpa? Wouldn't you call 911.

Not strictly confined to the topic, but I've always wondered what happened to Ann Sigmin. She set up Charles Sigmin to be murdered, but did she really abandon Gary Goff after they fled the area, or did Goff dispose of her?

Huh, Gary did abandon Ann Sigmin after being in couple for a while. In fact, Ann had threatened him with death if he ever went to the police.

Given that he had already freely confessed to detectives that he had indeed killed Charles Sigmin with Ann, and that he confirmed that she was a witch and a Satanist, he would have confessed murdering her just as well if he had done it, if only by arguing she was dangerous and it was in self-defense.

But he didn't.

He preferred running as far away from her as possible. Between life in jail and staying with Ann Sigmin, he chose jail. She must be one hell of a spooky woman. :eek:

So my take is that she is still on the run, probably with another guy and even having had children, but playing the witches and the Satan worshipper. Or perhaps, she grew out of this silliness seeing how much it scared men away and could lead to her being recognized, and just plays the normal housewife now.

Given that he had already freely confessed to detectives that he had indeed killed Charles Sigmin with Ann, and that he confirmed that she was a witch and a Satanist, he would have confessed murdering her just as well if he had done it, if only by arguing she was dangerous and it was in self-defense.

But he didn't.

He preferred running as far away from her as possible. Between life in jail and staying with Ann Sigmin, he chose jail. She must be one hell of a spooky woman. :eek:



Well, she's the type of person I wouldn't want fiddling with a ouija board near me. :D

Goff was still claiming that he killed Charles Sigmin in self defense when he turned himself in. Although I think Ann Sigmin was the instigator of the murder, the fact that Goff went along with her story to the police and continued to deny his full complicity tends to cast doubts on his credibility. From what I recall he's out of prison already.

Anyway, I'm not invested in either scenario, but even if you take Ann Sigmin's baphomet and witchraft dabbling seriously (UM was more likely to emphasize occultic behavior during the satanic panic era) Goff was no choir boy himself, and I wouldn't put any violent behavior past either of them.

I'm adding Alex Cooper to this list. Although he wasn't view as a criminal, it seemed like such a lame excuse to leave his family. Why wouldn't he have tried to amend the situation with the pension earlier? And if he was that close to his family, why not explain to them what happened? I think there's more to that story.

Laura Bible & Ashley Freeman - Almost certainly victims. So many things point to those girls either being kidnapped or murdered elsewhere, or both. But a shred of might linger on the most skeptical of all people that they were involved in the murders/fire. Doubtful, but someone out there might think so
i think they are eithe dead or kidnapped, i hope we find out what happened with them.

Now my victim/suspect is Dub Wackerhagen. He's being searched as a killer, BUT he could also be a victim.

The case I read the other day on Larry Costine got me thinking. There are people out there who are declared missing, yet no one can say beyond reasonable doubt whether they are suspects or just victims. Of course we all have our theories, but here goes:

Laura Bible & Ashley Freeman - Almost certainly victims. So many things point to those girls either being kidnapped or murdered elsewhere, or both. But a shred of might linger on the most skeptical of all people that they were involved in the murders/fire. Doubtful, but someone out there might think so.

Mike Reimer - The opposite. This guy is likely a suspect. His wife is found dead, his daughter abandoned and he is nowhere to be found. I've always leaned on him being guilty and taking off on his own, but stranger things can happen and he could have been led somewhere to die

Jo (Larry Costine case) - I still can't understand what the reason would be for Jo to murder Larry. But stranger things have happened I guess. Without her available we still have no proof either way whether she is a victim or the actual murderer.

I can't believe they haven't found Jo. She was 5'10" and a husky gal. I figured she would be easy to find.

Dale Kerstetter has got to be dead. If he was in on the robbery, the statue of limitations ended over 15 years ago. He could have come back to his family free and clear, but hasn't, so I think he's dead.

I think John and Linda Sohus's disapperances are suspicous. The fact that no one ever saw them again after they supposedly went to Europe is a clue in itself. John's own mother never heard from him again or from Linda either. I think John was murdered and the whole "Europe" thing was a cover. I think that Linda might have been alive for awhile until she outlived her usefullness and then Chichester bumped her off too. How was it that he was in possesion of John's truck when he never purchased it since John's name was still on the title and he tried to sell the truck illegally, but since he didn't own the truck in the first place the title transfer wouldn't have gone through since John's signature was needed. Yes, I think John and Linda are almost assuredly dead! Sad.

I think John and Linda Sohus's disapperances are suspicous. The fact that no one ever saw them again after they supposedly went to Europe is a clue in itself. John's own mother never heard from him again or from Linda either. I think John was murdered and the whole "Europe" thing was a cover. I think that Linda might have been alive for awhile until she outlived her usefullness and then Chichester bumped her off too. How was it that he was in possesion of John's truck when he never purchased it since John's name was still on the title and he tried to sell the truck illegally, but since he didn't own the truck in the first place the title transfer wouldn't have gone through since John's signature was needed. Yes, I think John and Linda are almost assuredly dead! Sad.

I think most of us are in agreement that the skeleton found at their old property is John Sohus, there's just no way to positively identify it because there's no DNA from a relative nor dental records to compare it to.

I'm adding Alex Cooper to this list. Although he wasn't view as a criminal, it seemed like such a lame excuse to leave his family. Why wouldn't he have tried to amend the situation with the pension earlier? And if he was that close to his family, why not explain to them what happened? I think there's more to that story.
This is one I've seen many times and never really researched it. I don't see anything else on UM wiki, but I have to imagine that his family had a lot of questions and trust concerns with him later. I hope they were able to work things out.

Another one here that may have been mentioned is patrica Meehan. I know most people dont consider her a suspect and I don't either. but I do wonder and um did mention something along the lines if she was under the influence of medication or something else maybe she felt overwhelming guilt and never wanted to return home.

Dale K - He was definitely a victim. The statue of limitations has long expired on any charges and yet his daughters whom he was very close to have never heard a word from him. The fact that his employer wanted to paint him as a villain from the beginning never sat with me right. These weren't high definition high tech cameras im sure back in the late 80s. So just because they see a grainy video of Dale walking with the masked intruder down a hall way they automatically assume he was involved? Pretty disgusting of his employer if you ask me. I think it was an ex-employee or someone who had connections with the building but I don't think Dale was involved. He was probably eliminated as a witness. Who would fight an intruder for your employer? Dale probably though if he cooperation with the intruder he would survive.

Mike Reimer - He was a victim IMO as well. The fact that there was that sock connection between both sets of victims means Reimer was either a serial killer or he was a victim. I think he was a victim. If he cared so much as to let his daughter live, I'm sure he wouldn't want her to witness her mother murdered. He probably would've done it when he daughter wasn't with them. Second, his jacket and everything was left in the car on a freezing winter day. I think it was a thrill killer and for whatever reason Mikes body wasn't next to his wifes. I think the killer didn't want to kill a child or was surprised to see a child in the car and had something against hurting a child.

Dub W - He was involved. Why or who else would have motive to shoot her 6 times with a shotgun? There was no rape or robbery. Again, overkill especially with no other apparent motive is usually rage and indicative of someone who knew the victim well. I have no idea if they are dead or alive now but I Think hes guilty

A ton of posters here thought Mike Riemer was guilty and on the run...until his remains were found in 2011. IIRC, law enforcement thinks that he was a victim now as well.

Agree with Mike Riemer being a victim. I did not believe that until his body was found, I have to admit.

I've always thought Dale Kerstetter was a victim. Having the daughter on the boards for a time just reinforced that.

I think Dub killed Letecia. I don't think he killed Chance. I think they're both on the run still.

I agree: Lauria Bible and Ashley Freeman fall into the victim category. I really doubt two sixteen-year-old girls could stay hidden for so long. Very few sixteen-year-olds are criminal masterminds, after all.

As for Dub, I learn towards the criminal part. I often wonder if after killing Latricia, he didn't take Chance somewhere deep into the wilderness and shoot Chance then turn the gun on himself. Maybe in his mind, he was protecting Chance or maybe he did it so that no one else could have him, sort of deal.

As far as dale k. It seemed like maybe his employer and he didn't get along well and that led him to speculate that he was involved in fraud. If that is the case then that's unfortunate for his family. I haven't seen that segment in a while. I always felt bad for his daughter when watching.

It was hard to think mike riemer was innocent.