Was Rhoda's marriage destined to fail from the beginning? If so, was it due to the fact that Joe was the groom or that viewers just hated the fact that Rhoda was no longer single?

I think the real mistake was marrying them off too fast. Maybe if they'd had a serious, long-term relationship and married them off in the last episode, it would've turned out better for the show in the long run. Personally, I liked Joe (and his portrayer, the late David Groh, who was also a fine dramatic actor).

I think the real mistake was marrying them off too fast. Maybe if they'd had a serious, long-term relationship and married them off in the last episode, it would've turned out better for the show in the long run. Personally, I liked Joe (and his portrayer, the late David Groh, who was also a fine dramatic actor).


You definitely have a valid point, but I don't think David Groh was the right person to be cast as Joe. I think they could've used someone, more likeable.

To each his own, but I think Rhoda and Joe were good together - Valerie Harper and David Groh had nice chemistry together. Speaking of David Groh, this is my favorite story about him:

"General Hospital's David Groh (D.L. Brock), who in a fight scene to air Aug. 31 let slip a certain four-letter word beginning with "F." Rather than re-shoot the scene—in which D.L.'s lover, Bobbie Spencer (played by Jackie Zeman), is about to be raped—the producers decided to use a foghorn to cover up his faux pas."

- The scene was shot on the docks, so a foghorn blast made perfect sense.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20085833,00.html

I think David Groh was very good as Joe,Rhoda was a very forceful character,she needed a husband who could stand his ground.
Rhoda did force the marriage issue,I agree they married too fast on Rhoda.
I hate the first episode of season3 its so well acted,its painful seeing them split,Joe was rotten to Rhoda,he clearly forgot to mention the times Rhoda and her family helped his struggling business.
It was Valerie Harper herself,who felt Rhoda was getting a bit boring as a married lady,nothing against David Groh,they stayed friends until his death.
The ratings did slide after they split,it was a brave move but viewers hated it.
I'd liked to have seen Joe return in seasons 4 and 5 and have a will they won't get back togethor storyline.
All the stuff with the custome hire store,wasn't a patch on the first two seasons,we lost Myrna and Susie after season2,never cared for Brenda's boyfriend,Benny.

^ Good points. :nod: I seem to remember that Valerie Harper, David Groh and Harold Gould reunited back in the 90s on a talk show - Donahue, Sally Jessy...I don't remember which one offhand.

^ Good points. :nod: I seem to remember that Valerie Harper, David Groh and Harold Gould reunited back in the 90s on a talk show - Donahue, Sally Jessy...I don't remember which one offhand.

Here's a clip from a Rhoda reunion in 1984 on "Hour Magazine." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDZqOJxDMAo

Here's a clip from a Rhoda reunion in 1984 on "Hour Magazine." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDZqOJxDMAo
Cool - thanks! :cool:

To each his own, but I think Rhoda and Joe were good together - Valerie Harper and David Groh had nice chemistry together.

I agree with you. I think they made a perfect TV couple and my recollection was that he was a popular character. The reason I remember the writers saying he was written out of the series was not that people did not like the character, but that they felt constrained: writing for a married Rhoda was more difficult than writing for a single Rhoda: the reason people loved the character was because her life was so imperfect. Then suddenly with Joe (and her slim figure) her life was too perfect for her to be fun anymore. The other night on The Joy Behar Show, Valerie Harper said the writers had originally conceived a show similar to what Mad About You was years later. But because CBS scheduled Rhoda during the "family hour," the writers were prevented from writing those kinds of scripts. So it totally defeated the purpose of having Rhoda married. So they decided they'd have more latitude with the character if they made her single again.

^ Good points. :nod: I seem to remember that Valerie Harper, David Groh and Harold Gould reunited back in the 90s on a talk show - Donahue, Sally Jessy...I don't remember which one offhand.

I remember that, too. :)

I know I am in the minority here...but I did not like Joe. And it has nothing to do with David Groh who I feel was a wonderful actor. I just never liked Joe, there was something about him that didn't sit right with me. I think I preferred Rhoda to be single. I do agree though that having them date and then marrying them in the final episode would have been better for the show. People like the intrigue of where a romance is headed. When characters are married too soon, there is no reason to watch.

I remember that, too. :)
I looked it up - the three Rhoda stars reunited in 1996 on Sally Jessy Raphael's show. That was just around the same time Nick At Nite started airing Rhoda reruns. Unfortunately, I can't find any clips. :(

I know I am in the minority here...but I did not like Joe. And it has nothing to do with David Groh who I feel was a wonderful actor. I just never liked Joe, there was something about him that didn't sit right with me. I think I preferred Rhoda to be single. I do agree though that having them date and then marrying them in the final episode would have been better for the show. People like the intrigue of where a romance is headed. When characters are married too soon, there is no reason to watch.
David Groh also made a TERRIFYING villain - try to check out an episode of Law & Order called "Indifference" (from S1), where he plays one of the most chilling villains you'll ever see. He reprised the same role in S15 in the 2004 episode, "Fixed".

I feel Rhoda in later seasons got carried away with couples splitting,later it was Ida and Martin but they at least got back togethor.
The quality of Rhoda scripts nose dived in seasons 4 and 5,sad really,MTM was great from start to finish.

I feel Rhoda in later seasons got carried away with couples splitting,later it was Ida and Martin but they at least got back togethor.
The quality of Rhoda scripts nose dived in seasons 4 and 5,sad really,MTM was great from start to finish.

I agree the scripts took a turn for the worse. I remember reading somewhere that Rhoda started out as great Television, but ended up being just TV.

It may have been better if they could have had her start a more interesting job with a livelier supporting cast, instead of working in the small costume shop. The costume shop was kind of depressing and run down, especially since she got this job right after the divorce and the divorce was not something that the Rhoda character wanted. I remember reading a critique that said "Rhoda the soaring has turned into Rhoda the boring" in seasons 4 and 5.

I remember reading or hearing the opposite of what you stated, that Valerie said she did not mind being married and that she was fine with many scripts being geared towards Brenda. It's funny how different books or interviews quote conflicting information.

In retrospect they were too quick to marry her off, but it seems that maybe they turned around and did the same thing again, by divorcing her too quick. In itself, the divorce was not a bad idea and the ratings were still strong until the last season when they were moved to Sat night.

Still, one of my favorites of all time- The show and the actress. Can't wait to see the rest of the DVD'S.

Maybe Rhoda shouldn't have gotten married so quickly, however, then we wouldn't have the great wedding episode, with most of the cast of MTM there with the cast of Rhoda. And Phyllis wouldn't have the opportunity to "forget" to pick Rhoda up!!

I totally agree with you Mark,regarding the wedding of Rhoda and Joe,the ratings went through the roof for that with most of the MTM gang,guest starring except Ted and Betty White.
I think TV viewers throughout the world like to see sitcom characters whether its Lucy and Ricky,Samantha and Darrin and Rhoda and Joe,battle everything but stay togethor,hence the ratings nosedive of Rhoda through season3.
Although not such a big fan of Rhoda from season4 onwards,at least we got Nancy Walker back.

^ :yeahthat

I don't think Rhoda would have survived at all with out Nancy Walker as Ida. Even if she only appeared in, maybe, half the episodes of the entire series, her presence carried the series imo.

It almost seems like the episode was created more so to have a reason to bring everybody together, and thought wasn't given to where they would go with Rhoda and Joe as a married couple. I wonder if they ever considered them deciding at the last minute they shouldn't marry so quickly, cancel the wedding and say, oh well, since everybody's together here, let's have a party! ...of course Ida would have a stroke...but...!

It almost seems like the episode was created more so to have a reason to bring everybody together, and thought wasn't given to where they would go with Rhoda and Joe as a married couple. I wonder if they ever considered them deciding at the last minute they shouldn't marry so quickly, cancel the wedding and say, oh well, since everybody's together here, let's have a party! ...of course Ida would have a stroke...but...!

I like that idea! Oh well, hindsight. Strangely, though, just a few years later, the writers/producers of Angie made the same mistake. That series came charging out of the gate like Rhoda, then Angie and Brad got married and it was downhill from there. Fortunately, the folks on Cheers seemed to have learned from those disasters and kept Sam and Diane from ever getting married, right up to that final episode when it looked like they would!

When looking at That Girl, Ann and Donald got engaged in the fifth season but the wedding never took place.

As far as Rhoda is concerned, maybe the belief is correct that she and Joe were married too soon. But that's the direction the writers chose to take, I think they should have stuck to the format. When the happy couple suddenly became unhappy and split up in the third season, it cast a dark cloud over the show and it all went downhill from there.

I think the show could have been better if Joe had a more interesting job. It would have been better if they cast him as a doctor or lawyer - having interaction with some other females as well.

"Building demolition" is not that entertaining.

I think it wasn't just the marriage to Rhoda,we lost Rhoda's girlfriends,Myrna,Susie and Sally,there suddenly seemed a lot of male characters around,Gary(who I did like)Benny,Jack,Johnny and the guy who worked at the customer hire shop but he was replaced by the girl from Gary's jean store.

I always thought it was odd that this was late 1970s NYC, and Rhoda didn't have any gay male friends. That's what this show needed!

I always thought it was odd that this was late 1970s NYC, and Rhoda didn't have any gay male friends. That's what this show needed!
Too bad they couldn't get Phyllis' brother to move to NYC! :lol: Rhoda and Ben did become buddies.

Too bad they couldn't get Phyllis' brother to move to NYC! :lol: Rhoda and Ben did become buddies.

Funnily enough,the late Robert Moore,who played Ben on MTM,directed a lot of Rhoda episodes and play two parts on Rhoda.

In "The Lady In Red",he's the unsympathetic unemployment bureau
man,who cuts Rhoda's benefit and in season2,"Don't Give Up The Office",he plays a man from the neighbouring office,keen to take over Rhoda's office space as her business is in trouble.

Too bad they couldn't get Phyllis' brother to move to NYC! :lol: Rhoda and Ben did become buddies.

How about Marty Morrison and Darryl Driscoll?

How about Marty Morrison and Darryl Driscoll?
Now THERE'S a crossover I'd love to see! :lol: It would make perfect sense because Rhoda was a designer and both shows (Rhoda and Barney Miller) were set in NYC. (Though I don't know how far away Rhoda's Bronx is from Barney's Manhattan.) Too bad the shows didn't air on the same network!! :lol:

Ya'll are coming up with some pretty good ideas here! Too bad you're a few decades too late! lol.

Ya'll are coming up with some pretty good ideas here! Too bad you're a few decades too late! lol.
:lol:

Funnily enough,the late Robert Moore,who played Ben on MTM,directed a lot of Rhoda episodes and play two parts on Rhoda.

In "The Lady In Red",he's the unsympathetic unemployment bureau
man,who cuts Rhoda's benefit and in season2,"Don't Give Up The Office",he plays a man from the neighbouring office,keen to take over Rhoda's office space as her business is in trouble.
Too bad he couldn't have reprised Ben - that would've been awesome!! :lol:

Now THERE'S a crossover I'd love to see! :lol: It would make perfect sense because Rhoda was a designer and both shows (Rhoda and Barney Miller) were set in NYC. (Though I don't know how far away Rhoda's Bronx is from Barney's Manhattan.) Too bad the shows didn't air on the same network!! :lol:

:lol:

I remember reading an article somewhere, back when the ratings for "RHODA" were starting to take a nosedive after she got married that said the show had become "just another situation comedy about a marraige" and that MTM was thinking of having Mary get married on "THE MARY TYLER MOORE SHOW" until "RHODA" showed that it would be a mistake.

I read that it was after Rhoda split with Joe,that the ratings took a nosedive.
The writers took a brave step but viewers hated the split.

I read that it was after Rhoda split with Joe,that the ratings took a nosedive.
The writers took a brave step but viewers hated the split.

I think you're correct. Rhoda finished in 9th place the second season . . .

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=deMLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=U1gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6618,3424792&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

and then dropped to 32nd place in the third season when Rhoda and Joe split. My recollection was that the decision for Rhoda to divorce was not in response to ratings, but because the writers were complaining of difficulty coming with scripts for a married Rhoda. Here are weekly ratings reports from the second half of the second season (spring 1976). As you can see, Rhoda usually showed up in the top 20 during those months. There are a couple instances where it's not in the top 20, but it might have been that the show was preempted those weeks (I don't know):

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HPAjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1fgDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6321,938880&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=wO0gAAAAIBAJ&sjid=D3IFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4563,5068961&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dhUOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XX0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6974,1019436&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=q8YRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cO0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4985,4018573&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7qgfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=atYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3767,2720202&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ZKkSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3_gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6707,2034035&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YRksAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4cgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1366,682912&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=B-YTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mgUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6534,2129649&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=85EzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=reoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=928,1987919&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NO0rAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yWgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3610,8635963&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3GsrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5tkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2425,23778&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8ggVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QwIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6157,5287702&dq=nielsen+ratings&hl=en

Funnily enough,the late Robert Moore,who played Ben on MTM,directed a lot of Rhoda episodes and play two parts on Rhoda.

In "The Lady In Red",he's the unsympathetic unemployment bureau
man,who cuts Rhoda's benefit and in season2,"Don't Give Up The Office",he plays a man from the neighbouring office,keen to take over Rhoda's office space as her business is in trouble.

I just caught "Don't Give Up the Office" on yesterday's ALN - he was such a great character! It's too bad they didn't add him as a regular starting in S3 (he could have moved into their apt building as one of their annoying-friendly neighbors) - he would have energized the show the way 'Joe' couldn't.

Was Rhoda's marriage destined to fail from the beginning? If so, was it due to the fact that Joe was the groom or that viewers just hated the fact that Rhoda was no longer single?

Here it is, the reason Rhoda and Joe split. Read in particular paragraphs 4 through 7, where Alan Burns explains the decision to have Rhoda and Joe split up. This is precisely the explanation Valerie Harper gave to Joy Behar a couple weeks ago about the inability to do the kinds of marriage stories they wanted to do because of the Family Hour constraints.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VRoMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fV0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5051,3781609&dq=rhoda&hl=en

And a little more on the subject, here are a couple TV listings and ads from the night the third season premiered:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9BkMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=eV0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6610,4601706&dq=rhoda&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=L8otAAAAIBAJ&sjid=BqEFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1841,6641709&dq=rhoda&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=eOsgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=63EFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5832,1677138&dq=rhoda&hl=en

I was watching this episode tonight and I have to say that was one of the best performances I've seen. The whole cast was great, but Valerie Harper was phenomenal. It was so raw and real I was wondering if this could possibly just be acting. She really looked like she was on the verge of a breakdown. Could her marriage to Richard Schaal have been on the rocks already at this point, and she was projecting her own issues into that performance? Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions here and she really is just an incredible actress. This performance deserved an Emmy.

I just wrote something similar about Harper's performance in the other thread ("Subtle Hints"). She and Walker were just outstanding. This is the kind of acting we just don't see any longer on TV (OK: Lauren Graham and Kelly Bishop came very close in the "Gilmore Girls").