this is different than the "people interviewed on UM you just didn't like" thread. That thread concerns just people interviewed on the show, and is mostly people who we are sure they're guilty and overzealous prosecutors.

This thread is about people you felt UM tried to get you to like, but you just couldn't. Or people you tried to like, but just couldn't.

I'll start.

Tim McClure - 'nuff said.

Diane Strom - Jenny Pratt's mother never wasted an opportunity to be obnoxious, whether it be mentioning that she thought Jenny's life was over (including on one occasion with Jenny present), telling us that the program is worthless, and her constant interruption of her daughter. If Lifetime wanted to make edits, they could have cut most of Diane's parts out.

Gale Delano - easily the most egotistical person ever profiled on UM, hands down. Despite the fact that many men were intersted in her, she somehow gets the impression that they aren't and decides to travel to the oppposite end of the country and off herself, leaving her sons parentless, causing relatives to worry, and subjecting numerous people to questioning by the police and scrutinization as they become suspects. And what the heck was she so depressed about? Maine is full of beauty, nice people and seafood restaurants.

Gale Delano - easily the most egotistical person ever profiled on UM, hands down. Despite the fact that many men were intersted in her, she somehow gets the impression that they aren't and decides to travel to the oppposite end of the country and off herself, leaving her sons parentless, causing relatives to worry, and subjecting numerous people to questioning by the police and scrutinization as they become suspects. And what the heck was she so depressed about? Maine is full of beauty, nice people and seafood restaurants.

To me this sounds like a too easy approach. If she had a depression she could not feel what other optimistic persons feel. To them life can be so beautiful, for her it could be hell.
A depression is pretty serious. Sometimes it is well threatable but if you are in such a state too long it becomes chronic.
And if you are that depressed that you actually kill yourself then it must be really bad! If you are in that kind of state you are not able to just stay on earth for the sake of your children. I imagine she thought they would get over it soon and go on with their lifes. I think she probably felt that she was not lovable enough so nobody would care, at least not for long.
I'd rather feel sorry for her that she thought that low of herself than see her as you see her..

To me this sounds like a too easy approach. If she had a depression she could not feel what other optimistic persons feel. To them life can be so beautiful, for her it could be hell.
A depression is pretty serious. Sometimes it is well threatable but if you are in such a state too long it becomes chronic.
And if you are that depressed that you actually kill yourself then it must be really bad! If you are in that kind of state you are not able to just stay on earth for the sake of your children. I imagine she thought they would get over it soon and go on with their lifes. I think she probably felt that she was not lovable enough so nobody would care, at least not for long.
I'd rather feel sorry for her that she thought that low of herself than see her as you see her..

you have a point, but she should have seen a psychiatrist. Not just voice her problems to a late night loveline disc jockey. Perhaps if she would have seen a psychiatrist, none of this would have happened.

Hmm, should see have seen a psychiatrist? Of course. However one must remember, this was a different time, mid 1980's, depression still has a stigma now but no where near as bad as it was then. Back then people would think you were some psycho or something for going to a psychiatrist.

As someone who has battled depression off and on, I will say that while Gale faking her own disappearance was wrong, it is something to where if your depression is bad enough it can make you at times psychotic. When I say psychotic, I mean it just makes you so you are not thinking rationally. This is a prime example of that. I mean if Gale were in her right mind, she would have never done this. I mean if she was going to do herself in she would have at least let her family know that is what she was going to do.

But I think and this is just an opinion but I think she had battled this for so long and she was just worn out. She was tired of fighting it and from the sounds of it, she had suffered from depression since she was a teenager and after 20 years or so of battling this thing day in and day out, something that from the sounds of it was constantly eroding her self esteem and mental well being she just eventually decided the only way out was suicide. It is sad but it still happens way too much, particularly in American society.

Nowadays there are better treatments whereas at that time in the mid 80's, the best you could do is tryclic (I did not spell that right I know) anti depressants, these were the days before the SSRI and NSRI anti depressants which are shown to be far superior. Those drugs, well SSRI's did not begin to come on the market until the late 1980's and early 1990's and NSRI's did not begin coming out until the late 1990's. Plus the whole mental health field, the mental health situation and the importance of mental health, while there is still way too much of a stigma there it has decreased significantly from the time Gail disappeared and killed herself. So while it was wrong what she did, I certainly would not say I disliked a person because they did this, particularly when you can tell she was not exactly in her right mind.

Yes Jenny Pratt's mother was obnoxious, that one I agree with you on. As for Tim McClure, I would not say I dislike him but I do not believe he killed h is mother either. A strange case regardless if you believe he did it or not really. Hmm, who did I try to like but could not? I cannot really say there were people on there that I tried to like but did not. There were people on there whose attitudes I did not care for and some people I disliked as human beings outright.

The police chief in the Dowaliby case, the police department mouthpiece in the Tommy Burkett case. The Sheriff and friend in the Eric Tamisayu case. Curtis Croft from Jenny Pratt's case. The Sheriff in the Norman Ladner case. Jule Caylor, Mark Nichols, Steve Page, Chad Noe and his mother and grandmother. The Sheriff in the Kathy Bonderson case. The prosecutor John DeSanto in the Larry Race case. The prosecutor in the Stuart Heaton case. The prosecutor who gave the most fake apology I have ever seen in the Patricia Stallings case. The Chicago police for 'losing' the jacket in the Chad Mauer case. I mean I could go on and on and on really.

you have a point, but she should have seen a psychiatrist. Not just voice her problems to a late night loveline disc jockey. Perhaps if she would have seen a psychiatrist, none of this would have happened.

She might have simply had too much pride. I've had issues with depression, before, including serious thoughts of suicide, and it's not something a rational, sane person can ever understand unless they have been there. In my case, I wanted help, but I only wanted it from someone I trusted, and thankfully, there were a couple of close friends around. Perhaps in her case, she simply couldn't stomach the thought of actually talking with someone, face to face, and felt the DJ was a better solution. People in that state of mind are not rational. What seems perfectly fine and normal to them is completely illogical to someone else.

this is different than the "people interviewed on UM you just didn't like" thread. That thread concerns just people interviewed on the show, and is mostly people who we are sure they're guilty and overzealous prosecutors.

This thread is about people you felt UM tried to get you to like, but you just couldn't. Or people you tried to like, but just couldn't.

I'll start.

Tim McClure - 'nuff said.

Diane Strom - Jenny Pratt's mother never wasted an opportunity to be obnoxious, whether it be mentioning that she thought Jenny's life was over (including on one occasion with Jenny present), telling us that the program is worthless, and her constant interruption of her daughter. If Lifetime wanted to make edits, they could have cut most of Diane's parts out.

Gale Delano - easily the most egotistical person ever profiled on UM, hands down. Despite the fact that many men were intersted in her, she somehow gets the impression that they aren't and decides to travel to the oppposite end of the country and off herself, leaving her sons parentless, causing relatives to worry, and subjecting numerous people to questioning by the police and scrutinization as they become suspects. And what the heck was she so depressed about? Maine is full of beauty, nice people and seafood restaurants.

You picked three good ones there wiseguy. Tim McClure was just plain weird in my opinion. I think I told the story on here before that someone emailed me with information on Tim. They were a co-worker of his and said he was a very nervous sort who just gave off very strange vibes. This co-worker also wondered after seeing the UM segment if Tim's behavior had anything to do with what happened to his mother.

I can't agree with you with Diane Strom. I know there seems to be a very anti Diane Strom vibe on this forum but you can't count me among them. I agree she comes on like a ton of bricks at times but I'm sure she was/is angry and frustrated as hell as to what happened to her daughter. I guess I can see how some sensitivity training could be in order but on the other hand I understand her anger. It's typical of a parent with a child who is dealing with a serious illness or in Jenny's case brain injury. I watched a very good film a few months back called "My Sister's Keeper" which is about a mother dealing with her child's battle with cancer. Cameron Diaz's character in that film really reminded me of Diane Strom. At times she's not very likeable but in the end all she is doing is fighting like hell for her child and not surprisingly comes off overbearing at times to everyone else.

Gail DeLano...I feel some degree of sympathy for Gail having battled depression myself at various times in my life but I'm in total agreement with what you said. I've always regarded suicide as a very selfish act and the way Gail staged her disappearance to me came off as especially cruel. I mean looking back on that case, her family was very fortunate that medical examiner from Alabama was watching UM because in my opinion due to the way Gail DeLano staged her disappearance her case had about a million in one chance of being solved. If that medical examiner wasn't watching UM on that evening, I think the case would still be unsolved today as Gail DeLano did everything possible to cover her tracks and quite frankly she covered them very well.
===========================
Now as far as my picks go:

Huey Littleton Obviously what happened to The Ellender family was tragic and Littleton was understandably wrecked by what happened but in my opinion his situation isn't all that different from hundreds of others profiled on UM and the family members of those victims all came across a lot more likeable than Huey Littleton. Maybe it was due to the fact that Littleton was sort of portraying a dual role in the segment as both a relative and a PI but I actually think at times he does come across as unlikeable which given his situation is very hard to do because you want to feel sympathy for what he's gone through.

Jeanne Tovrea Not Jeanne specifically because obviously she wasn't interviewed but between the UM segment and the special A&E did on this case awhile back I can honestly say that not one friend or family member of Jeanne Tovrea's that was interviewed in either broadcast was likable. Her sister was obnoxious, her friend (the artist) was obnoxious, her brother who I believe was interviewed for A&E was obnoxious.

Being that this is case about Ed Tovrea's children not liking their stepmother and then allegedly having her killed because of how their father's estate was divided...to me Jeanne Tovrea's likability factor is a key issue in how I view this case. So being that I've found a lot of Jeanne Tovrea's friends and family to be off-putting it really makes me wonder if the Tovrea children actually had a legitimate gripe about Jeanne Tovrea and her family being unlikeable.

you have a point, but she should have seen a psychiatrist. Not just voice her problems to a late night loveline disc jockey. Perhaps if she would have seen a psychiatrist, none of this would have happened.

Like someone else said, it was a different time. Maybe she did not even thought about it as a depression. Maybe she just saw it mostly as feeling very alone and lonely. Something that would go away if she found the right spouse. But one day she clearly had enough. Maybe realised it was more serious and did not see any light at the end of the tunnel?

A psychiatrist is no wonder maker, in my opinion. There are people that did take their own lifes while under the care of a psychiatrist. If the depression is too severe or when someone is worn out, isn't able to feel that it will be better one day the chances are there they'll just give up. It is an illness. Not something you can easily snap out of. Even some very depressed people do underestimate this.
For example: thinking it will go away. Which will not in most cases.
Or another option: when they get the wrong medication and it only got worse to the point there was no barrière anymore to nót take their own lifes.

In the eyes of others it may seem selfish but to me it's not. If you can't feel anymore that others wíll miss you, need you etc. because you got an illness then it isn't. And the chances are they think the other way around. That their family is better of without them, off planet earth.

For myself I can't name anyone in an UM segment I saw I tried to like but couldn't. But don't get me started about some law enforcement people in for example 48 hours mystery, cold case files etc. ;)

I was going to start a thread about people you didn't feel for but I really had very few cases and it seemed off puting.

But the case that inspired me was the one about the vicitm in the Ann Corricelli case. She was the fortune teller that conned people by telling them there are cursed. The 2nd case was tougher but the 1st case just didn't left me with much sympathy. It was this women who got conned out of 4k that she was supposed to throw down the river with a brick to "erase the curse". That case bothered me as all the stuff was so out there that I just found it hard to feel sorry for somebody to believe all that stuff. Plus it was hard for me to feel something. When she threw it down the river, she supposedly started praying, so she didn't know if Ann threw it or exchange it or what happened. She goes on with "I turned my back to pray and I didn't know what happened to it". You mean the 4k you were going to throw down a river where it can be lost forever? That money?

The 2nd case carried a lot more sympathy since it was the old ladies life savings but yet there is something about how she allowed to supposedly burn 40,000 dollars that makes it out like, well you really should know better. Still that looked more gullible and more tragic. But the lady with the 4k, it wasn't even that much money, so I don't feel anything for her.

Hmm, I don't know about this one Dark Dante. I personally do not view suicide victims as selfish. I mean yes I suppose you are technically correct that suicide is a selfish act because they people are killing themselves. However in my opinion at least a majority of the time these people are not truly being selfish when they do this. They are at such a low point they honestly think the world is better off without them. Thus they think people would be better off if they are not around. So in their own deranged way they are thinking about other people. Again when someone seriously gets to that point where suicide is the only way out for them or it is looking attractive to do that then clearly they are not thinking rationally. You are thinking about something that is irrational from a rational perspective hence why you view it was a selfish act. However I think a lot of these folks when they kill themselves are thinking of anybody but themselves.

As for Jeanne Tovrea, you know I have mixed feelings in terms of the relatives being obnoxious. I can see how they would come off that way and perhaps they were. However I always attributed this to cultural differences. Jeanne's relatives, her brother and sister both lived in rural Arkansas where they and Jeanne had grown up. I think her brother and sister tended to view not really Ed but his kids, they tended to view his kids as being a bunch of spoiled brats, elitists who thought they were better than everyone else.

Now, I for one believe James Harrod to be innocent. I have contacted him off and on through the years. If you look at that case there is a lot more to that case than what you would think. The UM segment did go WAY over the top in painting Jeanne as some goodie too shoes. Do I think Jeanne was a bad person? No. Do I think she married Ed for his money? No. Do I think she truly loved Ed? Yes. But that said, she was into her own shady dealings and particularly after Ed's death was hanging around people and involved with activities she should not have been involved with. She was involved with some people who were shady characters to say the least. She was known to be into cocaine. Plus in the five years she was alive after Ed's death she was blowing through his money like water. In fact had she not been murdered she probably would have gone broke within a few years at the rate she was spending.

As for Ed, well, his kids, at least from what I can gather had always been a disappointment to him. He was disappointed that they had no desire for an education or to raise a family and make a home but instead were just content to live off his money. In fact, at one point he was so fed up he was going to cut them out of his will altogether. In fact for as much as those kids hated Jeanne, I will give Jeanne credit for this, she was the one that convinced Ed not to cut his kids off and not cut them out of his will. He reduced what they would get but he did not throw them completely out and he basically told them it was because Jeanne had convinced him not to so he told them to be happy with whatever they got.

Having battled depression the majority of my life. (I'm 30 now, have been depressed on a fairly constant basis since my early teens) I would agree that suicide can be seen as a selfish act.

Having 'almost' been depressed enough to end it all a few times and to play devil's advocate, I would argue that it's just as selfish for a person's friends and family to try to force someone to live, that clearly doesn't want to.

I don't begrudge Gail for what she did, as mentioned previously on this thread even now there is a certain stigma with depression... can only imagine how bad it would have been back then.

Do I feel bad for her children and the rest of her family?!?, yes I do... but when your that depressed you aren't rationale and I'm sure Gail if anything held on as long as she could for her family's sake and it simply got to the point of being overwhelming.

You guys are really making me upset that I missed that special A&E did on Jeanne Tovrea.

Anyone know where I could get a copy of it?

This thread is about people you felt UM tried to get you to like, but you just couldn't. Or people you tried to like, but just couldn't.

I'm not sure if that's the right way to put it. If anything, there have been some UM interviewees who said or did something that I didn't like, even without making me dislike them.

One example that I can cite is Henry Rollins. In the UM interview, Rollins struck me as a trooper who held his own while doing the onerous task of having to recall the night his friend Joe Cole was murdered. My only complaint about it, however, was his brief comment on how the American justice system "seems to benefit only a certain skin color and a certain economic place." But it was somewhat mitigated by his subsequent stated desire to see justice exacted on Joe's killers.

Diane Strom - Jenny Pratt's mother never wasted an opportunity to be obnoxious, whether it be mentioning that she thought Jenny's life was over (including on one occasion with Jenny present), telling us that the program is worthless, and her constant interruption of her daughter. If Lifetime wanted to make edits, they could have cut most of Diane's parts out.

Although I still have sympathy for Diane, I agree that some her remarks (especially the one about the program being "worthless") were inappropriate. I would hope that she has since regretted those comments.

Actually Kane, you and I agree on that. That is something that had always bothered me about Rollins comment. While I admired what he was trying to do I felt it was not appropriate or necessary for him to get in his personal opinion about how the American Justice system only benefits people of a certain skin color and certain economic strata. Besides the fact his view was wrong it was not appropriate for the topic at hand.

I do understand the opposing viewpoints, but I'm standing by my original assessments.

Diane Strom - Don't get me wrong, she has a reason to be angry, but she shouldn't be so hostile when Jenny is present, or can later learn what she said. Someone in Jenny's condition needs comfort and reassurance, not bitterness and hopelessness.

Gale Delano - the issue that nags me is that Gale claims nobody was interested in her. Yet she puts out the personal ad and alot of guys respond to it, and one of them has a several hour long phone conversation with her. And I noticed Gale was really picky in the ad, stating must like this, must like that. Perhaps if she wasn't so choosy, she would have gotten even more responses. And she was married twice, so it's not like she was unattractive to men. There are alot of people that are alot worse off than she was.

And that brings me to a sidebar. Why are people so picky when placing personal ads? That's one reason why I think it's not a good way to meet people. Basically, my only requirements for a significant other are that they are a nice person and they don't committ crimes. In some cases, they don't have to be all that attractive. I don't care what astrological sign someone is, or whether or not they like a certain type of music.

I'd me more inclined to have symptathy for Gale's plight if she was really undateable for lack of a better term, but it seems to be more of a case of Gale feeling too sorry for herself. Plus she has two sons and a family that obviously cares for her.

And let's examine what she did.

-disappears and causes her son and other family members to probably freak about what happened. For all they knew, she could have been kindapped, raped, savagely beaten and murdered. And as if that wasn't enough.

-she makes the police contact everyone that responded to her ad, putting innocent people through police questioning and making them go through the collosal stress of being considered a murder suspect, making them fear they will be wrongfully imprisoned and later executed. And as if that wasn't enough.

-makes her two sons parentless. Who knows what type of relationship they have with their father.

Gale was just way too arrogant for my liking.

-

To answe rthe topic question...

-Chalotte Nagy's entire family. I have so much sympathy for their loss. However, I have trie drepeatedly when watching this segment to like them and just can't for some reason. Part of it is because I believe the grandmother coached the granddaughter about the whole trash bag thing (My guess is the girl was fussing one day--as kids do sometimes-- and Mrs. Nagy just happened to be holding a black trash bag). Additionally, calling her daughter 10 - 14 times a day (!) is ridiculous. I can see once a day. Heck, I can even see 5 times (I guess). But 10 -14? Charlotte's sister's allegation that the footprints belong to Pollis' father without any proof whatsoever (at least none that was presented in the segment). For the record, I didn't care for anyone in this whole segment (including the Pollis family).


- The cop in the Stephen Marfeo segment (maybe it was Pam Page, but I think it was Marfeo) when he discusses the husband hiring an investigator to keep tabs on his wife. Then in a smarky way says "It's not consistent".

- Jenny Pratt's mom was a little too gloom and doom

- I found nothing wrong with Huey Littleton. I think he is just a disgusted father in addition to being a PI.

- The prosecution side in the Patty Stallings case. However, MMA is such a rare disease, you can somewhat understand why they felt so strongly (even as evidence started to emerge to the contrary) that Stalling s poisoned her baby. On the other hand, I have as much sympathy for Patty Stallings as any person ever featured on UM.

- The prosecuting attorney in the Jeffrey McDonald case. My beliefs on this case aside (I do NOT think McDonald killed his family. Yes, he had been unfaithful. But I do not believe he murdered them), The attorney comes across as a world-class jerk. IMO, to say Fatal Vision is an extensive account of McDonald's guilt is like saying the book .44 or any number of Son of Sam books are complete and accurate accounts of the Son of Sam murders. Maury Terry's book is the only truly accurat eaccount of the SOS murders (as far as I'm aware).

Hey Marlins, I do agree on James Blackburn who was the prosecutor in the MacDonald case. As a reward, Reagan appointed him to be U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of North Carolina. Eventually Blackburn returned to private practice and he was later disbarred for stealing money from his clients. He even wrote a sob story book where he expected people to feel sorry for him because he got disbarred and because he was waiting tables for a living. Yeah Jimmy B, I really feel sorry for you, an innocent man has been in prison for over 30 years because of you and your selfish and pathetic need to get convictions all the time without any real evidence. So the fact Jimmy that you are living in some toilet apartment and working a crap job does not make me feel sorry for you in the least. You chose to steal that money and get yourself disbarred. At least you have your freedom.

Hey Marlins, I do agree on James Blackburn who was the prosecutor in the MacDonald case. As a reward, Reagan appointed him to be U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of North Carolina. Eventually Blackburn returned to private practice and he was later disbarred for stealing money from his clients. He even wrote a sob story book where he expected people to feel sorry for him because he got disbarred and because he was waiting tables for a living. Yeah Jimmy B, I really feel sorry for you, an innocent man has been in prison for over 30 years because of you and your selfish and pathetic need to get convictions all the time without any real evidence. So the fact Jimmy that you are living in some toilet apartment and working a crap job does not make me feel sorry for you in the least. You chose to steal that money and get yourself disbarred. At least you have your freedom.

Thanks, Kadrmas15. I couldn't remember his name and wasn't going to go throw in my UM disc to check it either (though I guess I could have looked it up online lol). Remember his story about the killer (in his interview he even says "whoever killed her" instead of naming McDonald) putting a bottle of chocolate milk in the baby's crib?

Hey Marlins, you know, that was something the first few times I watched the segment I did not actually pick up on, and then one time I was watching it and I actually realized that he said 'whoever killed her' remember this was several years after MacDonald's conviction, why would he not just say he as in MacDonald killed her since that is what Blackburn supposedly believes happened? That was case was so screwed up on so many different levels. But I am a big believer in the saying that what goes around comes around and Blackburn got his. Being disbarred, he also pled guilty to felony embezzlement so he is a convicted felon and he actually served several months in federal prison. Blackburn was not the only one that was a piece of work in this case, Judge Franklin Dupre who was a piece of trash in his own right, highly biased against MacDonald. Also, disgraced author Joe McGuiness who wrote the novel 'fatal vision'.

MacDonald ended up suing McGuiness for fraud because McGuiness had been stupid enough to sign a contract saying that he would write a book that was in favor of MacDonald. McGuiness was just a money grabbing bastard who figured way more money was in it for him if he wrote a book portraying MacDonald as guilty as opposed to innocent. The first civil trial ended in a mistrial but eventually McGuiness settled with MacDonald for several hundred thousand dollars. McGuinesse's career has never recovered. He has wrote a couple books since then but like I said, his career has never really recovered from that.

Maybe this is wrong of me, but for some reason two people that were interviewed on UM just get on my nerves.

1) the cop who drove around "Miss Katie" when they smelled marijuana. His demeanor was annoying.

2) the "expert" in "Ressurection Mary" who claimed, with such certainty, that it was "the touch of a corpse." How neat, the whole story just wraps up with a little bow.

I'm curious if Mrs. Nagi called all her children that much, or just Charlotte.

The fathers of Cindy Anderson and Bonnie Haim struck me as different. Not dislike but that some of their comments were unusual for the parents of missing children.

Tony Lombardi's mom and friend

Totally agree on Charlotte Pollis mom.

I am not sure how Tony Lombardi's mother and friend would be unlikeable? Why? I mean not to snap Corky, I get you think Tony L offed himself in his bedroom but just because you do not like that Tony's mother and friend think he was murdered, it hardly makes them not likable.

I am not sure how Tony Lombardi's mother and friend would be unlikeable? Why? I mean not to snap Corky, I get you think Tony L offed himself in his bedroom but just because you do not like that Tony's mother and friend think he was murdered, it hardly makes them not likable.


Well, I think Tony L's mother went too far in criticizing the police department. She gave conflicting statements and when asked about that very dissue snots "I know what I heard..." ((or something like that, its been a while)). COMPLETELY neglecting that she was unable to identify the sound at the time. I would give her the benefit of the doubt on being grief stricken and in shock if she just weren't so obtuse in her interview.

Now the friend I can't give any reason for disliking him other than just how sometimes you get a "feeling" about someone. That's it. Its just my feeling that the guy was lying about nobody trying to contact him, and I tend to agree with the police officer who ((doesn't specifically)) say the friend is lying.

I also had no time for Sheriff Wampler. Either murderously corrupt or frustratingly inept this guy should have been ran out of office.

What about the stupid guy in the Alcatraz special who said they made it because the other prisoners said they did!! Or Ed Waters trying to convince anyone who'll listen that he really took pictures of UFO's :rolleyes:

Well I do not think it makes him stupid. It does make him naive. I mean Don Denevi was a quirky college professor. He is still alive but I am not sure if he teaches anymore or not? He said and the exact quote was 'these guys made it, they made it because Clarence (Karns) said they did and I trust that'. I mean, Denevi was certainly taking a gamble. While Karns of course could have been telling the truth he could have been lying. Inmates and non inmates alike have that potential. It is a situation where there is really no way to prove or disprove it although I would say the odds are better than not that the 3 men never made it to shore but it is something I guess we will never know for sure?

As for Ed Walters, yeah he was a piece of work. One thing I could never figure out. While I had no doubt Walters was lying, I could never figure out whether his followers were or not? There is a difference between not being right and intentionally lying. I think a majority of these people truly believed they saw something but I think because they WANTED to believe they saw a UFO their imaginations ran off with them and they built it up into something way bigger than it actually was. Whereas Walters, he was just looking for people that wanted something to believe in and took advantage of them. Walters wrote a book detailing his experiences so I am sure that made him some money. But looking at his pictures, I mean, even in the mid to late 80's I am surprised those could pass as genuine.

Like how good old Ed, notice how he never denied the model found in his old house was his? He did hint at it being planted there but never formally alleged that. However why would someone, if they were going to plant something in Ed's old house, why would they plant the model in his attic, buried under a bunch of insulation where it may not even ever be found? I mean it was really by a freak chance that the new homeowner found it. In fact since he and his wife were new to the area, he did not know what to make of it. He just figured it was a kid's model or toy or something and just kind of stuck it aside without really thinking about it, and did not even know what the significance of it was until after he had lived in the area for a few months he became aware of the hoop-lah surrounding Ed Walters who was the prior homeowner.

Corky, actually, while I cannot disprove your allegations about the friend lying in Tony L's case, why would he? The police never disproved that allegation that he was never contacted. Why would he lie in any event? You would be surprised how often cops get tunnel vision, close a case without any real investigation and do not interview important witnesses or acquaintances or dispose of the interview or cover them up when the results are not what they wanted? Just ask Tommy Zeigler about that one.

I'm sorry if this has been said before.

I can;t stand the reporter in the Cindy James case. It's not that what he was saying was wrong, but just his delivery seemed too smug and self assured. His thick Canadian accent didn't help, either (apologies to all Canadian folks on this board. :D )

1. Chad Noe and his family - Its obvious that these idiots either killed Wendy Camp or had something to do with it. Their smug looks and comments almost made it unbearable to watch.

2. Sheriff Wampler - At the end of the segment, he says he did not have anything to do with Eric Tamiyasu's murder, while smirking and laughing. Yea Wampler, its real funny that someone was murdered.

3. Leonard Rizzo - he claimed there was never any spousal abuse on his part, then int he update, he is arrested for assault on his girlfriend. Real piece of work this guy is.

I'm sorry if this has been said before.

I can;t stand the reporter in the Cindy James case. It's not that what he was saying was wrong, but just his delivery seemed too smug and self assured. His thick Canadian accent didn't help, either (apologies to all Canadian folks on this board. :D )


:lol: :lol:

Haha, I got a kick out of the Canadian comment mastermind. Yeah, I agree on your assessment of the reporter. He came off as to cocky and it was an attitude I did not care for. Kind of smug and arrogant. I did not disagree with his opinions, just more the way he presented them.

I think the nasal-quality of his voice made his self-assuredness seem more smug. Although I believed what he was saying!

Hmm... now I have a hankering for that episode like warm stew... bbl.

Well, I tried to feel sympathy for Cindy's Anderson's dad since his daughter disappeared but the guy is a complete jerk. His comments about Cindy seemed inappropriate.

Mr. Wacker struck me as being very standoffish. Also, I don't know why but I got the feeling that he was hiding something. Just saying.

I'm sorry if this has been said before.

I can;t stand the reporter in the Cindy James case. It's not that what he was saying was wrong, but just his delivery seemed too smug and self assured. His thick Canadian accent didn't help, either (apologies to all Canadian folks on this board. :D )

Thank you! I couldn't stand him, either, and I had totally forgotten about him until I read your post.

Billy Mesmer in the Nancy Manni case. I wanted to give this guy a chance; I really felt for him when the cops zeroed in on him simply because he wrote dark poetry. While he did turn out to be innocent of her murder, he was guilty of being a pretentious blowhard with an inflated sense of self-worth.

Billy Mesmer in the Nancy Manni case. I wanted to give this guy a chance; I really felt for him when the cops zeroed in on him simply because he wrote dark poetry. While he did turn out to be innocent of her murder, he was guilty of being a pretentious blowhard with an inflated sense of self-worth.

Oh come on, he was a poet. They're automatically neurotic and pretentious.

Ok in Gale's defense. You can attract all the men/women in the world and it still doesnt mean you feel wanted or needed. Its the opposite in fact. The fact that she was married twice and tried to find a man may mean that Gale needed approval from someone else. Been there and done that myself.

I''ve had tons tell me I'm pretty and all that mess, but you have to believe it. Gale seemed to lack self worth, which makes me feel for her. There are tons of people out there who are seriously depressed.

Chad Noe and his hillbilly mafia family make me sick!!!

Charotte Pollis' mother, i tried to like her and i agree with her that Paul did kill her daughter, but that does NOT justify coaching the little girl to fear a dark trash bag or kidnapping her either.

Also that creepy guy in the Mystery Hum segment. The one that went into the cave.

While I believe the phenomenon is real, that guy just seemed to give a vibe like he was a some pervert or something. I half expected him to be profiled in one of the WANTED segments. :lol:

Ok in Gale's defense. You can attract all the men/women in the world and it still doesnt mean you feel wanted or needed. Its the opposite in fact. The fact that she was married twice and tried to find a man may mean that Gale needed approval from someone else. Been there and done that myself.

I''ve had tons tell me I'm pretty and all that mess, but you have to believe it. Gale seemed to lack self worth, which makes me feel for her. There are tons of people out there who are seriously depressed.


Agree. I add to this: Attracting a guy, get a guy does not mean you can keep a guy. Certainly after a couple of failed relationships or marriages it will likely come to/in mind you're not worth of happiness and love. Maybe even that a person begins to think, is the failure in the story. Not loveable, not likeable, doomed to be alone and lonely. If she wasn't capable of feeling (self)worthy no one can let you think otherwise. You want to believe but you'll see it different and therefor can't see it like they can.
And I don't believe for one second she was arrogant or something like that. If you are that depressed and did everything you possibly can (like she did) to succeed in killing yourself I don't think you can be arrogant. I believe that an arrogant person thinks highly of oneself and would never consider suicide. That would be a too greath of loss for the world..

Charotte Pollis' mother, i tried to like her and i agree with her that Paul did kill her daughter, but that does NOT justify coaching the little girl to fear a dark trash bag or kidnapping her either.

Why are you so sure that was what she did?
Maybe the girl díd see something like that and expressed it towards her grandmother. It is possible she felt she could say it to her grandmother because of the feelings the grandmother had about this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwcarolina
Charotte Pollis' mother, i tried to like her and i agree with her that Paul did kill her daughter, but that does NOT justify coaching the little girl to fear a dark trash bag or kidnapping her either.

Why are you so sure that was what she did?
Maybe the girl díd see something like that and expressed it towards her grandmother. It is possible she felt she could say it to her grandmother because of the feelings the grandmother had about this case.


Would the child really be witness to the mother;s body being put into the trash bag? The murder, yes...but the dismemberment and the stuffing of the body? I also don;t know that the child would be able to process that her mom was stuffed in a trash bag, and much less say that. Fear of trash bags???

I also want to add another one. Don Kemp's mom. I feel sorry that he died and for her loss but I think he's case was really simple and the fact she kept denying the obvious and badgering the guy in the trailer (who was probably innocent of everything they accused him of) made her less sympathetic in my view than other parents.

sorry if this was posted...but having just seen the Charles Horvath piece, I don't know if i was supposed to like the lady that didn't let him come up when he rang the bell, but overall I didn't sense that she was terribly concerend he'd disappeared.

sorry if this was posted...but having just seen the Charles Horvath piece, I don't know if I was supposed to like the lady that didn't let him come up when he rang the bell, but overall I didn't sense that she was terribly concerned he'd disappeared.

Why are you so sure that was what she did?
Maybe the girl díd see something like that and expressed it towards her grandmother. It is possible she felt she could say it to her grandmother because of the feelings the grandmother had about this case.
I am not sure, but the fact is that it looks like a coaching, i am NOT saying Paul is innocent because he isn't, he acts and looks guilty, but her grandmother also looks like she is coaching the child and that is not good for children.
Would the child really be witness to the mother;s body being put into the trash bag? The murder, yes...but the dismemberment and the stuffing of the body? I also don;t know that the child would be able to process that her mom was stuffed in a trash bag, and much less say that. Fear of trash bags??
yeah, that is my thought exactly, any good father would NEVER let their children witness something that brutal and i just can't see a child that young being afraid of a dark trash bag.

I think it is questionable to weigh guilt or no guilt upon someone's look and appearance. 'It looks like a coaching' does not prove or mean that it in fact was one. Maybe the girl indeed saw something that Paul wasn't aware of, assuming now that he in fact did kill his wife. I don't know if he did but if that's true then it is possible she saw something.
He did point out the children were with him all the time.

Maybe when the child saw her grandmother or some other family put stuff in a trashbag say something that let the familymembers believe Paul stuffed her mother in a trashbag. It does not mean she did say exact words as 'Daddy put mommy in there' but even that is possible. To me it does not sound as something that can't ever be said by a child.

Any good father, yeah, I guess. But come on, a man that murders his wife and stuff her in a bag isn't a good person. Maybe he wasn't a good father then either. And like I stated before, he might not be aware she saw something.

I think it is questionable to weigh guilt or no guilt upon someone's look and appearance. 'It looks like a coaching' does not prove or mean that it in fact was one. Maybe the girl indeed saw something that Paul wasn't aware of, assuming now that he in fact did kill his wife. I don't know if he did but if that's true then it is possible she saw something.
He did point out the children were with him all the time.


Your not even slightly suspicious why the information came out so late? Why did they not report that the child was saying these things earlier?

Maybe when the child saw her grandmother or some other family put stuff in a trashbag say something that let the familymembers believe Paul stuffed her mother in a trashbag. It does not mean she did say exact words as 'Daddy put mommy in there' but even that is possible. To me it does not sound as something that can't ever be said by a child.

Wouldn;t that mean that they are interpreting the childs words for her? Perhaps the child is talking about something completely unrelated to her mother;s murder and they are interpreting it as "she saw mommy get put in the trashbag".

The grandmother specifically said that the child was afraid of trashbags on more than one occassion.

Any good father, yeah, I guess. But come on, a man that murders his wife and stuff her in a bag isn't a good person. Maybe he wasn't a good father then either. And like I stated before, he might not be aware she saw something.

This was a crime of passion, so this doesn;t necessarily mean that Paul is a psychopath. All he did was simply murder his wife in rage..that doesn;t necessarily mean that he is a bad father or doesn;t care enough about his child to protect her. I can;t imagine he would let his daughter view any part of the dismemberment. I also can;t imagine that he didn;t give her some cover story on why Mom isn't with them.

Oh come on, he was a poet. They're automatically neurotic and pretentious.

I don't suppose I can argue with that. :)

Regarding Gale...I see both sides of this. By its very definition, Gale was "selfish." It appears as if she was only acting on her own behalf; it is just ironic that her desires happened to go against her own well-being. On the other hand, depression, much like drugs, can turn a person into somebody completely different. I'd like to think that she wasn't capable of thinking about the children that she left behind - that she was just so consumed by her depression - it makes her seem less selfish - but the fact is that we (fortunately) can't know what she was thinking.

I'll always remember this case for the update - Robert Stack's voice booming, "Mobile, Alabama..." I was like "Wtf?" Then the story came out, and I was immediately bummed out.

Back to the topic though...checking out when you have kids....that's just hard, hard stuff to let your children grow up with. It's hard not to dislike her just a bit.

Back to the topic though...checking out when you have kids....that's just hard, hard stuff to let your children grow up with. It's hard not to dislike her just a bit.

You have to remember, though. When a person is in that state, they honestly believe that the world, including all of their loved ones, is much better off without them. When I was going through that, I felt that those who cared about me would grieve for a short time, but would get over it rather quickly, and would ultimately be happier without me. Is this always correct? Of course not. The families left behind are usually devistated. But the person is not in the frame of mind to judge things correctly.

Yes I agree Bell, I think though, looking at the dialogue in this forum, there is some confusion. You see, all too often folks when looking at someone like Gail Delano look at a person like that from a rational point of view. The problem with this is you are looking at an irrational person from a rational point of view, thus you do not understand how the person could not be rational.

I think it is questionable to weigh guilt or no guilt upon someone's look and appearance. 'It looks like a coaching' does not prove or mean that it in fact was one.
i am not saying that it is coaching because of how she looks, it is the way it sounds, and that does NOT justify a kidnapping that her mom did!!

Maybe the girl indeed saw something that Paul wasn't aware of, assuming now that he in fact did kill his wife. I don't know if he did but if that's true then it is possible she saw something.
i agree she may've saw something, but fearing a dark trash bag? yeah right.

Any good father, yeah, I guess. But come on, a man that murders his wife and stuff her in a bag isn't a good person. Maybe he wasn't a good father then either. And like I stated before, he might not be aware she saw something.
but the facts are, Paul's mother in law kidnapped her granddaughter and if you watch the UM segment even the police (who are good at seeing coaching) believed the girl was coached.

Your not even slightly suspicious why the information came out so late? Why did they not report that the child was saying these things earlier?

Is it really sure and a fact when this info came out? I mean, maybe the mentioning only came out in public as a reason for the grandmother to take the girl. The mentioning of the incident about the trashbag may have been common knowledge among people in that town and the police for a whole lot longer. Or with the family and the police. Maybe they all agreed it was to little to follow up on or that they did not want to question or grill the girl because she was so young and vulnerable?



Wouldn;t that mean that they are interpreting the childs words for her? Perhaps the child is talking about something completely unrelated to her mother;s murder and they are interpreting it as "she saw mommy get put in the trashbag".
Interpretating, oké. I'll believe that because that is what all people do.
Coaching however is a whole other area. That is using and leading a person, on purpose, to fit something you want to fit. Bút if what you said is true then why did they not use that coaching immediately? You pointed out that this information came out so late. If you are coaching someone you intend to use that in a short period of time.
Therefor I don't think they coached. I'll think the girl indeed showed fear or said something and they honoustly believed they were right all along that Paul was the culprit in the disappearance of their daughter.

The grandmother specifically said that the child was afraid of trashbags on more than one occassion.
Maybe because it was true?


This was a crime of passion, so this doesn;t necessarily mean that Paul is a psychopath. All he did was simply murder his wife in rage..that doesn;t necessarily mean that he is a bad father or doesn;t care enough about his child to protect her. I can;t imagine he would let his daughter view any part of the dismemberment.
I did not say he was a psychopath. I don't know. I am not a psychiatrist. If I ever use that word for someone I can only say it because it appears to be. And maybe I will even be right. However it only will be a coincidental truth opinion.
In my opinion: you are not a good father if you murder your children's mom. That does not portray you care for the wellbeing of your children.
Like I said before maybe he wasn't aware the daughter had seen a glimpse.
And maybe not even of the dismemberment but she could have seen her mother's face when her father was busy stuffing her further in the trashbag.

I think it is questionable to weigh guilt or no guilt upon someone's look and appearance. 'It looks like a coaching' does not prove or mean that it in fact was one.
i am not saying that it is coaching because of how she looks, it is the way it sounds, and that does NOT justify a kidnapping that her mom did!!

Well, you wrote Paul acted and looked guilty. I replied to that.


i agree she may've saw something, but fearing a dark trash bag? yeah right.
Why not. If you saw your mother being stuffed in a trashbag maybe you got traumatized and then it would be totally logical you show fear when you saw again anything that reminds you of that.


but the facts are, Paul's mother in law kidnapped her granddaughter and if you watch the UM segment even the police (who are good at seeing coaching) believed the girl was coached.
Police can be wrong. That is not something that can be out of the question.

Well, you wrote Paul acted and looked guilty. I replied to that.
Well, he did look guilty, he smirked alot in the segment, but it wasnt just looks that i thought made him guilty, it was how defensive he was and his explanations, if you watch the segment they talk about how Paul and the family cleaned and he said, "I clean, I live there, I like to live in a clean house" that statement was really defensive and i agree that maybe he does like to live in a clean house, but why act so defensive towards it?? just say, i was cleaning and move on.

Police can be wrong. That is not something that can be out of the question
yeah they can be wrong, but they are pretty good at finding out if a person has been coached or not and are pretty good at dealing with witnesses.

Yes I agree Bell, I think though, looking at the dialogue in this forum, there is some confusion. You see, all too often folks when looking at someone like Gail Delano look at a person like that from a rational point of view. The problem with this is you are looking at an irrational person from a rational point of view, thus you do not understand how the person could not be rational.

Thank you. It always irritates me when someone who has never experienced deep depression or suicidal thoughts judges someone who has said experiences or commits suicide. After going through what I went through, I will never judge anyone who does so, again. Everyone has their own issues, and it's something that, unless you are that person, you'll never understand.

I also want to add another one. Don Kemp's mom. I feel sorry that he died and for her loss but I think he's case was really simple and the fact she kept denying the obvious and badgering the guy in the trailer (who was probably innocent of everything they accused him of) made her less sympathetic in my view than other parents.

I agree that she was erroneously focusing on her son's death as a homicide, but she had every right to know why some a$$ was making prank calls about Don. Either the phone company made an error or someone at the trailer made those calls and didn't want to own up to their behavior (when doing so would have made the case far less of a mystery).

Marc Nichols. Would love to meet a hillbilly dude like him.

Though then again, there's just something sinister about him, just get that feeling.

I didn't like Anton what'shisface, Crystal Spencer's boyfriend. Something seemed off to me with him. Personally, I think it makes more sense in that case that Anton murdered Crystal, angry over her secret stripper life.

I didn't like Anton what'shisface, Crystal Spencer's boyfriend. Something seemed off to me with him. Personally, I think it makes more sense in that case that Anton murdered Crystal, angry over her secret stripper life.

You know, I never liked him either. I always felt like he thought he was Henry Higgins to Crystal's Eliza Doolittle.

I didn't like Anton what'shisface, Crystal Spencer's boyfriend. Something seemed off to me with him. Personally, I think it makes more sense in that case that Anton murdered Crystal, angry over her secret stripper life.

Wow. The guy may come across as a tool, but is there any actual evidence he killed her?

Anton Kline is his name. He was a PhD candidate in history and an aspiring screenwriter. I mean, I guess in some ways I can see how he could come off as being kind of smug, arrogant, kind of a know it all type. However I am kind of surprised some here would think he killed Crystal Spencer. I guess it is possible, but it seems that no one including Kline were investigated as the death was ruled a death by natural causes, not homicide. The bigger tool in this case was the neighbor who heard the screams and went back to bed. Not the chick, but her husband who was all freaked out and talked her out of calling the police.

Wow. The guy may come across as a tool, but is there any actual evidence he killed her?

I go back and forth on this one. I don't know what even makes sense in this case.

Tommy Ziegler. I don't know, maybe he didn't kill his wife and parents in-law but there was a lot of things going against him. He didn't seem as genuine like a Larry Race for instance.

Larry Gibson. Why did I even bother to try to like him in the first place you ask? Well I have talked to the guy online before believe it or not. He still maintains Tommy is "missing" and that his lawyers messed it up for him to go to jail. A part of me wants to hope the world owes him an apology for accusing him of such blasphemy but deep down I know I can't like him because nothing points to him being innocent

Larry Gibson's wife. Debra (?). I always thought if she dolled herself up a bit more she'd be smoking. But, she probably knew all along what happened to Tommy so.............

Sheriff Wampler. I almost always take the side of cops. I'm a firm supporter in the police. And while I try to believe and even like Wampler nothing excuses the incompetence of burning evidence even if he did it or not

Adam Hecht's mother and brother. I know they were obviously genuinely worried about Adam's disappearance and I definitely think Tony was somehow involved, but those are two of the most melodramatic individuals I've ever seen on UM.

I didn't like Anton what'shisface, Crystal Spencer's boyfriend. Something seemed off to me with him. Personally, I think it makes more sense in that case that Anton murdered Crystal, angry over her secret stripper life.

If Anton murdered Crystal, why would he make such a fuss in getting her case re-opened? He got away scott-free with her death being natural causes. Why would he shine light on the case being a murder.

Anton Kline is his name. He was a PhD candidate in history and an aspiring screenwriter. I mean, I guess in some ways I can see how he could come off as being kind of smug, arrogant, kind of a know it all type. However I am kind of surprised some here would think he killed Crystal Spencer. I guess it is possible, but it seems that no one including Kline were investigated as the death was ruled a death by natural causes, not homicide. The bigger tool in this case was the neighbor who heard the screams and went back to bed. Not the chick, but her husband who was all freaked out and talked her out of calling the police.

I believe that UM "cleaned up" the parameters of their relationship. I'm sure Anton did not shy away from using his connections in hollywood to court a younng attractive lady into his bed. Sort of a Marilyn Monroe-Arthur Miller type of thing, if you will. :D

That being said I do believe that Anton and Crystal's relationship was real and that he had designs on furthering that relationship into something permanent.

Well, after finding the old thread with the Crystal Spencer articles, I don't think that Anton was involved in Crystal's death. I always had a little doubt, but I don't anymore.

I never liked the detective in the Mike Reimer segment.

Is it me or did they guy seem a little too young to be a detective on this case.:confused:

He seemed like a poor man's Keanu Reaves!:lol:

I never liked the detective in the Mike Reimer segment.

Is it me or did they guy seem a little too young to be a detective on this case.:confused:

He seemed like a poor man's Keanu Reaves!:lol:

He always looked a little weasel-like to me, but that's not incredibly nice to say.

Well the detective, it was the incredibly BAD hairpiece he had. I mean it was just obvious it was not his real hair. It kind of reminded me of a Sam Donaldson type hairpiece.

I've always have some odd feeling about Kurt Sova's mother when she spoke on the segment about his son. Not her per se, but the language she used. Dorothy Sova just made me feel as if she was resenting that her "youngest boy" was growing out of the quiet, pretty-picture boy she had in her mind.

Not that she didn't have the best intentions, but the language she used was rather... down-putting. She sounded too much the smothering, nigh-infantilizing mother who'd have like to turn her son into a momma's boy. That she wasn't aware or even contemplating that her 17 year old son might drink alcohol, go out to parties, and get acquainted with older or different people and do typical teenage things, and her keeping insisting that he was never in trouble and was a good boy, was putting me off. I mean, he was almost an adult, for crying out loud.

She gave me the vibe that she had wanted her son to remain as cute, cuddly, and obedient as an 8 year old, implying that it was in fact his straying and exploration that lead to his death. But judging from the segment, Kurt wasn't doing anything a typical youth of his age wouldn't do in any urban setting (including myself, despite having my own brand of overbearing, borderline mother), and in fact he seemed a rather well-balanced, socially active young guy.

Yeah, sure alcohol, parties, and a little drug experimenting is rather normal for a typical teenage, yet rather scary to protective, well-meaning yet sometimes overbearing parents. But still, the guy was 17 years old, not 13, and he could fend for himself. Whether or not his death was due to foul play or interaction with alchool and drugs (which might not even be voluntary if the drinks were spiked), I wouldn't blame it on his lifestyle experiments as being "wrong". They weren't.

I was watching the show on Spike the other night and I thought that another person that would fit this is Anita Green. Of course it's sad that she died and the husband who put a hit on her can go to the hall of fame of most disgusting and worse individuals in UM history but something I hadn't thought about stuck at me. It opened up that both Anita and her husband Mel Green where married when they met and had an affair for years before they divorced and married each other. Then later when she wanted to leave Mel, it was because she had become president of her synagogue and had an affair with the rabbi. That means that Anita Green was a cheater. Once it may be ok but twice. UM kind of glossed that and although it had no bearing on how terrible her husband was and how undeserved her murder is, it also means that she was no saint either.

I've always have some odd feeling about Kurt Sova's mother when she spoke on the segment about his son. Not her per se, but the language she used. Dorothy Sova just made me feel as if she was resenting that her "youngest boy" was growing out of the quiet, pretty-picture boy she had in her mind.

Not that she didn't have the best intentions, but the language she used was rather... down-putting. She sounded too much the smothering, nigh-infantilizing mother who'd have like to turn her son into a momma's boy. That she wasn't aware or even contemplating that her 17 year old son might drink alcohol, go out to parties, and get acquainted with older or different people and do typical teenage things, and her keeping insisting that he was never in trouble and was a good boy, was putting me off. I mean, he was almost an adult, for crying out loud.

She gave me the vibe that she had wanted her son to remain as cute, cuddly, and obedient as an 8 year old, implying that it was in fact his straying and exploration that lead to his death. But judging from the segment, Kurt wasn't doing anything a typical youth of his age wouldn't do in any urban setting (including myself, despite having my own brand of overbearing, borderline mother), and in fact he seemed a rather well-balanced, socially active young guy.

Yeah, sure alcohol, parties, and a little drug experimenting is rather normal for a typical teenage, yet rather scary to protective, well-meaning yet sometimes overbearing parents. But still, the guy was 17 years old, not 13, and he could fend for himself. Whether or not his death was due to foul play or interaction with alchool and drugs (which might not even be voluntary if the drinks were spiked), I wouldn't blame it on his lifestyle experiments as being "wrong". They weren't.

I'll have to disagree with you there. Drugs and underage drinking are not only wrong, but also illegal. And just because something is common doesn't mean it is right. Drugs and alcohol are usually the cause for a lot of bad things, such as addiction, drunk driving, and the list goes on. And we don't know the cause of Kurt's death, but it could have very well been (and likely, IMO) that his partying led to his death. So with that being said, his mother had good reason to be worried. I would rather be a 17 year old momma's boy than a dead 17 year old. I'm not gonna hold a lifetime grudge against everyone that's ever done drugs and drank underage, but I'm not gonna go around and endorse it either.

Hmm, well looking at it, I do not think what Drakken was getting at was necessarily an endorsement of underage drinking and drug use. I think what Drakken was saying was that Kurt's parents, in particular his mother were naive about what he might have been doing. I do not condone underage drinking and drug use either but as someone who did both I feel I am not in a position to throw bricks.

The whole topic of whether or not underage drinking and drug use are bad or not bad is really not the point in any event. The point is Kurt Sova is dead and I personally think Kurt Sova was murdered or even if he was not murdered, someone covered up his death. I mean clearly he did not just walk out to that ravine. So what happened? He had no alcohol in his system, however that does not mean he was not drinking. In order for him to be dead and have no alcohol, he was alive at least 24 hours after the party.

So the question is where was he? I am not sure if it was booze that did him in or if he was beaten up or what the case was. The case in my opinion was bungled from the start both by the police and by the coroner's office. That adds another layer of junk in trying to figure out exactly what the heck happened here? I mean whether it was a murder or an accidental death, clearly someone was panicked and covered it up. Kurt's body I beleive was not found until 5 days after he was last seen. So where was he during that time frame? Even a day or two before his body was found, kids had been down there playing and he was not there. So where was he? A lot of tough questions without any good answers.

Hmm, well looking at it, I do not think what Drakken was getting at was necessarily an endorsement of underage drinking and drug use. I think what Drakken was saying was that Kurt's parents, in particular his mother were naive about what he might have been doing. I do not condone underage drinking and drug use either but as someone who did both I feel I am not in a position to throw bricks.

While I do not condone it, I think it is part of a teenager's experience to experiment and learn his or her own boundaries when he or she enjoys his or her youth. And doing petty illegal stuff is part of this experiment at this age. Unless you are a square boy, most have committed a misdemeanor at least once in their teens. Doesn't mean they are criminals, though, just that they are living their young ages and authorities are very lenient with first offenders.

Here in Canada, especially in Quebec, you won't see teenagers get arrested for drinking alcohol while underage. Buying alcohol without the proper ID will simply get you denied access, but being in a bar while underage during a raid can get you in prison for the night. The mens rea isn't on the teenager, but on the provider(s) who buy or sell alcohol for people underage. But is it common for adults to buy beer for the elder teenagers anyway because, let's face it, drinking alcohol at 16 or 17 isn't seen as evil or wicked act here. This is a rather American puritan phenomenon.

As for drugs, except on school grounds police are rather lenient about possession of very small quantities, but they are tougher on bigger quantities because it implies trafficking.

Let us not fool ourselves. In teenage parties, alcohol is served. A party in which you drink fruit punch with mommy around is a slumber party for kids, not a teenage party. Even on school grounds, soft drugs could be easily found with the right contacts. In my youth it was cannabis, but I know even hard drugs have entered the school playground as low as grade school nowadays.

Now does that mean that parents must tolerate and treat these as they were nothing? No. But going the Dorothy Sova-denial road isn't the optimal way either. Boundaries must be set and the teen must learn there are consequences to what they do, but teenagers must also learn on their own what they can or cannot do. And 17-years old ending dead by experimenting alcohol and drugs is, overall, extremely rare.

Drakken I agree with u for the most part about teens and experimenting. But with all due respect the attitude in Canada and America is like night and day. In most states if u are underage and get caught it's a big deal. Also if u sell to a minor you could risk having your business shut down.

As most know America is a bit more conservative when it comes to drugs and alcohol. I don't know how the drug problem is in Canada but here the problem is very severe. America is one the biggest consumers of illegal drugs in the western world. Meth is destroying our young people and most see pot and alcohol as a gateway to more dangerous drugs. The drug game has also reeked havoc on poor communities.

I'm from Michigan and have spent time in Canada. The dynamic is a bit different for a neighbora far north. The young people here have a different attitude and it tends to be more excessive. Don't let the media fool you. Alcohol related incidents are not rare. Binge drinking at colleges happen all the time and kids end up in the hospital. Death might be rare but drinkng and driving and hospital trips aren't as rare as one think.

I've never done drugs or been a drinker. I was a wild kid who was in a gang and liked to beat up people. I've seen friends do all kinds of drugs. I was the exception in my group of friends. Peer pressure is high. But most here don't see drugs or drinking as a rite of passage or
just for the cool kids. I think most conservatives would agree with me. I'm not conservative but that's just the way it is here.

this is different than the "people interviewed on UM you just didn't like" thread. That thread concerns just people interviewed on the show, and is mostly people who we are sure they're guilty and overzealous prosecutors.

This thread is about people you felt UM tried to get you to like, but you just couldn't. Or people you tried to like, but just couldn't.

I'll start.

Tim McClure - 'nuff said.

Diane Strom - Jenny Pratt's mother never wasted an opportunity to be obnoxious, whether it be mentioning that she thought Jenny's life was over (including on one occasion with Jenny present), telling us that the program is worthless, and her constant interruption of her daughter. If Lifetime wanted to make edits, they could have cut most of Diane's parts out.

Gale Delano - easily the most egotistical person ever profiled on UM, hands down. Despite the fact that many men were intersted in her, she somehow gets the impression that they aren't and decides to travel to the oppposite end of the country and off herself, leaving her sons parentless, causing relatives to worry, and subjecting numerous people to questioning by the police and scrutinization as they become suspects. And what the heck was she so depressed about? Maine is full of beauty, nice people and seafood restaurants.

Good thread, Mike.

I totally agree about Diane Strom. Although I can absolutely understand where she's coming from and I sympathize (who wouldn't be angry if that happened to someone we love), I think her attitude is what really gets under my skin. Ever since I saw that 1990 telecenter special taped two years later, I thought she was actually pretty rude towards Stack as well as Jenny. Even cutting her off when RS was asking her a question. Jenny (and anyone in a position like that) does need love and encouragement, not a "their life is over" feeling.

i got someone who i tried to like, but just couldnt on UM...Dennis Farina....?

^ Yeah, I know it's not his fault that he's not RS...but nobody could replace him. :) Because of how long he hosted it, he was UM.

I don't really care for Farina either. I didn't like him on Law & Order either (but of course, he was replacing the beloved Jerry Orbach). It's not easy replacing icons.

Drakken I agree with u for the most part about teens and experimenting. But with all due respect the attitude in Canada and America is like night and day. In most states if u are underage and get caught it's a big deal. Also if u sell to a minor you could risk having your business shut down.

As most know America is a bit more conservative when it comes to drugs and alcohol. I don't know how the drug problem is in Canada but here the problem is very severe. America is one the biggest consumers of illegal drugs in the western world. Meth is destroying our young people and most see pot and alcohol as a gateway to more dangerous drugs. The drug game has also reeked havoc on poor communities.

I'm from Michigan and have spent time in Canada. The dynamic is a bit different for a neighbora far north. The young people here have a different attitude and it tends to be more excessive. Don't let the media fool you. Alcohol related incidents are not rare. Binge drinking at colleges happen all the time and kids end up in the hospital. Death might be rare but drinkng and driving and hospital trips aren't as rare as one think.

I've never done drugs or been a drinker. I was a wild kid who was in a gang and liked to beat up people. I've seen friends do all kinds of drugs. I was the exception in my group of friends. Peer pressure is high. But most here don't see drugs or drinking as a rite of passage or
just for the cool kids. I think most conservatives would agree with me. I'm not conservative but that's just the way it is here.

Burqueen is right. Most American teens love to get their hands on stuff to experiment with. I'm from Central MI and see it all the time. But we're getting off topic.

KS's parents were naive, the Keystone Kops bungled the case from Day 1, and the chance that this case will be solved is zip

DS, while a cool dude usually, was not a good fit for the show. Replacing RS can never be done, and while someone needs to put their own feel to the show, DS just didn't fit. Bill Kurtis would have kicked arsei got someone who i tried to like, but just couldnt on UM...Dennis Farina....?

Nancy Manni's "poet" boyfriend. puke:

Doyle and the police officer in the Michael Scott Martin segment. From not looking at all of the photographs, to changing his tune from "I think that's the guy" to "I'm sure that's the guy.", Doyle's uncertainty is obnoxious and put an innocent man behind bars for many years. The police officer had a personal grudge against Martin, for whatever reason, even going as far as to put Martin's photograph in the lineup despite the fact that Martin has never robbed anything in his life, and his leading questions.

1. Jeanne Tovrea's family-For years, I had a bad feeling about Jeanne's family, but didn't realize it until I read this thread. Remember how Jeanne's sister said something to the effect of "she was mine" (in reference to Jeanne)? That comment is rather off-putting. Did she own her sister? That, and both the sister and the other fellow (I forget his name, but he was the feminine-sounding guy) both seemed pompous.
2. Lorene Houtkin-I realize this woman led a tough life, and may not have had a good education, but I think this segment might have been better off without her grammatically incorrect speech at the end. No offense to her, but for some reason, she didn't help the story with her appearance.
3. Adam Hecht's mother-I feel sorry for her and her family in regards to Adam going missing, but she had a certain arrogance about her.
4. Randy Parker (Randolph Dial case)-As I mentioned on another post, I have a bad feeling about this fellow. This is in spite of losing his wife for about 12 years (she was found with Dial and returned to her family). He just seems rather stiff and controlling, and part of me wonders if this isn't why his wife did the art program with Dial and later left, maybe because she wanted to.
5. Michael Anderson-Ding, ding, ding, ding! This guy seems more concerned with how his daughter Cindy was becoming a "debutante" than her being kidnapped. He comes off as cold and arrogant, and more concerned with his religion than his daughter.
6. Kevin Poulsen story-Remember there was a nerdy-looking blonde (or bleached blonde) kid defending Kevin's illegal actions? Now there's a UM interviewee who was not only pompous beyond words, but seemed like the #1 geek of UM (sorry, #2 after Gabriel Carriello). :)

Ed Walters. His UFO never looked real to begin with, and somebody spotting a UFO not just once, but dozens of time is hard enough to believe, but after his accomplice and the paper plate model surfaced, his claims got harder and harder to believe, yet he wouldn't admit he was a phony. And why did he feel it was necessary to mention his political affiliation. What the heck did that have to do with anything? And some of the residents of Gulf Breeze, FL as well. "I know for a fact what I saw was a UFO." sure. :rolleyes:

Jeanne Tovrea's story was never fully told. Her story was told on "Power Privledge and Justice" and her husband's kids were all kina jerky......especially one son. This probably goes in another thread but if my sister was married to a guy whose kids treated her like crap and were, in my opinion, responsible for a hit on her that killed her.....well I wouldn't be too keen on them, either.

Hey all,

My votes for "People I tried like, but just couldn't" are:

1) "Jet" Taylor: I'm sorry, but I kinda lose respect for anyone who has the potential to help someone in need and decides to do nothing.

I mean, back in 2000, I was living in this apartment and one night I heard my next door neighbor beating the crap outta his wife (or girlfriend?) and children.
So I called the cops, they showed up and hauled the dude's sorry a$$ off.
I wasn't trying to be a hero or a big-shot, but if I hear someone (especially kids) being hurt it is my problem - anyone oughtta take the cue and do the right thing

2) Billy Reed Mesmer: At first I felt kinda bad for the guy 'cause the fuzz were pointin' the finger at him for his dark, grim "creative" writing.
Then he (a little overtly pompous) says:

"I'm a poet." (dramatic pause) I wrote her poetry constantly...which is obsessive things, full of feelings and emotion..."

I guess they edited out the part "...When I'm not not working at Arby's"

I kid, but really, just this fella's demeanor has earned him a place on this thread

3) Tim McClure (Oh why so shocked?): Alright, either Tim is a really really bad liar or he's just an idiot

4) The people ripped off by Ann Coracelli & her daughter : Look, I understand that when someone is having a bad time in life or feelin' low, they would like some answers or verification of their existence but how is dropping a huge amount of money to a "psychic" gonna fix anything?
I'll save this rant for the "psychics" thread - but if you're bone-headed enough to actually believe in psychics and that they will solve your problems, then you kinda deserve to be ripped off

I guess they edited out the part "...When I'm not not working at Arby's"



:lol:

Rae Ann Mossor and her parents - I normally sympathize very much with the deceased and their parents, but this whole family just came across as cold and irrational. Rae ann goes into histronics about being dumped by her boyfriend instead of accepting it (he has the right to dump her, he's not doing anything wrong), and then later the mother says that both her and Rae Ann were very temperamental. And in regards to that, her comment of "she couldn't have killed herself, she had too much of a temper, like me" makes absolutely no sense. In fact, having a temper would more indicate the opposite, that she could do something like this. Finally, the father saying "it was a murder, I don't care what anyone thinks.", despite the overwheling evidence it was not a murder. Thanks for not caring about our opnions sir.

Eh, I get the impression this family didn't have too many friends.

I'm sorry if this has been said before.

I can;t stand the reporter in the Cindy James case. It's not that what he was saying was wrong, but just his delivery seemed too smug and self assured. His thick Canadian accent didn't help, either (apologies to all Canadian folks on this board. :D )

How was he supposed to say it, poster?
The police spent a lot of time and money on what was almost certainly a disturbed woman's "game playing."

Other more serious crimes almost certainly had to have been neglected to divert resources towards this "case" and I'm sure that the reporter had one or more unpleasant encounters w/ the family when he tried to interview them.

This case was an elaborate suicide staged by deeply troubled woman seeking attention. Maybe the reporter was tired of it and disgusted that it (the case) was being treated as being a mystery when it was not.

I also want to add another one. Don Kemp's mom. I feel sorry that he died and for her loss but I think he's case was really simple and the fact she kept denying the obvious and badgering the guy in the trailer (who was probably innocent of everything they accused him of) made her less sympathetic in my view than other parents.

It's called "stalking", poster.
She seemed to have to blame someone for the guilt she was feeling that she wasn't there for her son.

4) The people ripped off by Ann Coracelli & her daughter : Look, I understand that when someone is having a bad time in life or feelin' low, they would like some answers or verification of their existence but how is dropping a huge amount of money to a "psychic" gonna fix anything?

Good God, yes! I try not to judge fraud victims for falling for obvious scams, but how am I supposed to sympathize with anyone who hires a psychic to destroy their money or throw it off a bridge, but then gets mad when the psychic uses a sleight of hand trick to keep the money for themselves? :confused:

If you really didn't want your money, just give it to charity or a good cause. There's too many poor people in this world to justify hiring a psychic to destroy your money!

Originally posted by RobinW If you really didn't want your money, just give it to charity or a good cause.


:clap

My thoughts exactly!

Clisedia Gonzalez, the victim of the NY Spanish Lotto scam. I don't know what it was about her, but for some reason, she just rubbed me the wrong way.

I actually liked Neal Hall, the reporter from the Cindy James segment. I always found it kind of annoying the way her mother says the line, "Your sister will be next and then your mother". But my vote for someone I couldn't like would go to Darren Routier. He just came off like a pompous tool in the UM segment and other broadcasts about the Routier murders. And that little asian boy on the young geniuses segment always got on my nerves with his whole, "I'm smarter than your kid" schtick.

This may or may not count because she was never actually interviewed in the segment, but Sandy Hoff--Ed Baker's fourth wife. She marries the dude no more than a day after his divorce from a woman he'd been wed to for five months (!!!), runs off to Houston and then to Europe while Ed deals with the brunt of the troubles he dealt with in the days before his death, and THEN I read later that it's very possible Sandy might have had something to do with it--she received one insurance payout, was seen carrying around a large amount of cash just one day before Baker's death (allegedly a hitman's pay, the story goes), and married one of the PIs she hired to work Ed's case. What a gem.

Darlie Routier. I don't know if she's guilty or not. But she is an absolute glutton for attention.

Elizabeth Campbell's boyfriend seemed like a dope. All she wanted was a ride but he insisted on asking her why she left his house in the first place. Ummm...hello, your girlfriend is in front of a convenience store at night. It didn't help that she was uncomfortable. Grade A moron...

Kenneth Ingy ~ I am really baffled why UM picked this case. I could not muster up even the slightest bit of sympathy for this man. Well let's see, drives drunk, starts a fight at a bar, damages another person's property, harasses the bar maid, all within the span of about 15 minutes. And this appears to be nothing more than somebody getting drunk off his gourd and not realizing he is poisining himself, didn't get the murder vibe at all from Curtis Heck.

Kenneth Ingy ~ I am really baffled why UM picked this case. I could not muster up even the slightest bit of sympathy for this man. Well let's see, drives drunk, starts a fight at a bar, damages another person's property, harasses the bar maid, all within the span of about 15 minutes. And this appears to be nothing more than somebody getting drunk off his gourd and not realizing he is poisining himself, didn't get the murder vibe at all from Curtis Heck.

I agree with you there. Kenneth was only a victim of his own foolishness.

Elizabeth Campbell's boyfriend seemed like a dope. All she wanted was a ride but he insisted on asking her why she left his house in the first place. Ummm...hello, your girlfriend is in front of a convenience store at night. It didn't help that she was uncomfortable. Grade A moron...

He was sort of laughing about Campbell's phoning him and asking him to come get her. A completely goof ball interview, especially if you compare it to Angela Hammond's boyfriend.

Kenneth Ingy ~ I am really baffled why UM picked this case. I could not muster up even the slightest bit of sympathy for this man. Well let's see, drives drunk, starts a fight at a bar, damages another person's property, harasses the bar maid, all within the span of about 15 minutes. And this appears to be nothing more than somebody getting drunk off his gourd and not realizing he is poisining himself, didn't get the murder vibe at all from Curtis Heck.

Yep, I've always been critical of UM's decision to air this case and think it's probably their worst "unexplained death" segment. It's clearly an example of a family not wanting to believe that a loved one died simply because of their own stupidity and came up with a VERY thin scenario to add some mystery to his death!

Yep, I've always been critical of UM's decision to air this case and think it's probably their worst "unexplained death" segment. It's clearly an example of a family not wanting to believe that a loved one died simply because of their own stupidity and came up with a VERY thin scenario to add some mystery to his death!


This is especially true considering that there are other more interesting cases from North Dakota. I always had the impression that the producers couldn't find anything better from my great state. :lol:

I wish they'd profiled the disappearance of John Henry Jacobson (http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jacobson_john.html) or Kristi Lynn Nikle (http://charleyproject.org/cases/n/nikle_kristi.html), either of which would have been more interesting than the Curtis Heck segment.

Scott Hill and Alex Cooper ~ both were involved in some pretty shady dealings and then abandoned their entire families without so much as a word. They are both very luck their respective families wanted them back, because I would have wanted them kicked to the curb.

Something about people who are "100% certain" they saw a missing person and then there's an update that reveals they were dead or what the witness saw was completely wrong, really annoy me. Perfect example: I can't remember the name of the victim, but she was a model who went out to a remote park under the pretense that she was in a photo shoot, and her remains were found shortly after her car was found. There was a witness who was out driving through the park and he came upon a camp where he claims to have seen her, and then a "gang" of guys came out of nowhere and began to harass the guy so he just drove off. The witness really got on my nerves because A. it seems like he didn't report this incident until he saw the missing poster for her and B. in the update it turned out she was murdered by one man, and there was no such gang at all.

Perfect example: I can't remember the name of the victim, but she was a model who went out to a remote park under the pretense that she was in a photo shoot, and her remains were found shortly after her car was found. There was a witness who was out driving through the park and he came upon a camp where he claims to have seen her, and then a "gang" of guys came out of nowhere and began to harass the guy so he just drove off. The witness really got on my nerves because A. it seems like he didn't report this incident until he saw the missing poster for her and B. in the update it turned out she was murdered by one man, and there was no such gang at all.

Ohh I remember that. Kimberly Pandelios was her name. I recall having pretty much the same feelings you did--it really bothered me that he didn't seem to report the incident until much later. After witnessing something like THAT (supposedly), why on earth would you wait to report it? :confused:


When I saw the Tim McClure segment the first couple of times, I tried to like him. It never materialized.

Clisedia Gonzalez, the victim of the NY Spanish Lotto scam. I don't know what it was about her, but for some reason, she just rubbed me the wrong way.

Really? I liked Clisedia. :(

Yes, anyone who claims that they saw the person in question when they were considered missing and ends up being completely wrong about it (sometimes in such a way that their own motives should be questioned), I'm not a fan of them. This seems to be quite a few people that are/were interviewed for these UM cases.

Really? I liked Clisedia. :(

Like I said, I don't know what it was, but there was something about her that bothered me. I can't really explain it any better than that.

Bob Oeschler---the UFO researcher in the Canadian UFO case. There was something off about him and it's not surprising he's allegedly involved in the theory of the whole incident being a hoax.

Judy Groezinger---no emotion whatsoever about her husband's death. She talks about Mark like she's reading a grocery list. Of course, if she helped to plan his murder, she probably would sound blase.

Donna Brown---I don't know why she was treated like a victim. She chose to abandon her children for a convicted murderer. I understand she was extremely lonely but sometimes being lonely is better than getting mixed up with someone like Michael Brown.

Chad Noe and his family. They give rednecks a bad name, that's for sure.

The woman in the Bonnie Wilder segment who was astonished that a woman that large could actually hold down a job that wasn't being a bus driver or a lunch lady, and that she was too "enormous" to disappear. First of all, many large people hold down "white collar jobs" and do them well. Second, someone who is 300 lbs. will not always be that obvious and can certainly disappear into a crowd. Third, in the update on Bonnie Wilder, it said she gained and lost weight on purpose to elude capture, so she wasn't stupid. As a very large woman myself, I take offense to people who have preconceived notions about my intelligence simply because I'm fat. Bigger bodies do not always equal smaller brains.

The one fat guy who owned Oliver the chimp who walked upright. His voice was really disturbing, and the way he began saying, "Oliver" over and over again when they were reunited really got on my nerves.

Judy Groezinger---no emotion whatsoever about her husband's death. She talks about Mark like she's reading a grocery list. Of course, if she helped to plan his murder, she probably would sound blase.

Chad Noe and his family. They give rednecks a bad name, that's for sure.

Well, people like Judy Groezinger and Chad Noe just come off as such cold, unpleasant people that I couldn't even make an attempt to like them, even if they were innocent of their crimes.

Al Henderson is one suspect who did seem like a nice and pleasant enough guy during his interview and I certainly WANT to like him and believe that he had nothing to do with the disappearance of Jean Moore, but there are just too many holes and inconsistencies in his story.

The one fat guy who owned Oliver the chimp who walked upright. His voice was really disturbing, and the way he began saying, "Oliver" over and over again when they were reunited really got on my nerves.

:lol: You just made my day. Thank you!! I vaguely remember this one.

Wow! It appears I'm in the minority on Gale Delano. Well, whatever your feelings are about suicide, depression, etc., I think we need to realize that this was not a case of Gale simply offing herself in her bedroom, leaving a suicide note and that was that. Gale's method of suicide was extremely cruel to so many people on so many different levels.

1. Gale had this 2 and a half hour conversation with a "John" I believe his name was the night before her disappearance, then made a point to announce that she was meeting him at the restaurant. I have come to believe that this entire phone conversation was nothing more than a publicity stunt on Gale's part and that it never took place, or that she simply was talking to absolutely nobody on the phone but a dial tone. Being that she is creating the impression that John is the last person to have seen her, she is essentially trying to make it look like John kidnapped her and did Lord knows what with her. So Gale, through her actions, tried to pin crimes on a completely innocent person. But you see, it doesn't stop there. Numerous people that responded to Gale's ad were contacted, investigated, scrutinized by law enforcement. She put so many completely innocent people through the hell and fear of knowing they were being considered for a crime. And knowing that UM has profiled several cases where innocent people are locked up, they must have been thinking this too.

2. Gale's suicide method was done so that she hoped nobody would ever locate her or find out what happened to her. She caused all of her loved ones and friends, including 2 sons who were not yet adults, to go through the worry and fear that she was kidnapped, raped, tortured, murdered and God knows what else. And had the Alabama coroner not been watching UM that night, this case would have never been solved, and Gale's loved one would be worrying to this very day. Gale was divorced, so I'm not sure what happened to her sons. It leaves the viewer to speculate. Perhaps she left them with no food or money and just left them to fend for themselves. Gale was divorced, so it's unclear what relationship if any, the kids had with their father. One has to assume the boys moved in with another relative at some point.

3. Gale caused law enforcement to waste countless, valuable resources. Lots of time, money and effort were wasted. And the really sad thing is that these resources could have been used on other missing people cases, people who may have actually been killed and what not.

4. I think Gale is guilty of wasting everyone's time. Why call the late night DJ and give him your sob story and not go out with him when he asks? She was just leading people on. He's paid to play music, not listen to her grief. I think she was so wrapped up in her "woe is me" attitude to really care about anyone else but herself. I think she had a huge case of "feeling sorry for yourself."

You can defend suicide all you want, but I don't think anyone can defend the horrible things Gale put alot of people through on her way out. Her actions were beyond objectionable, they were reprehensible. Personally, i think Gale is as bad as any criminal profiled on UM and I feel absolutely no sadness whatsover over her death.

I didn't really like Doyle from the MSM Final Appeal. I feel bad for him to get robbed like that but it's been 30 years and it's just as close to that case being solved as it was when it happened. Not to be confused with Doyle Wheeler. Even though Doyle was interviewed in silhouette there was something about him I didn't like

^I agree. I feel bad about Doyle being robbed, but I think he is mistaken about the identity of the assailant and his testimony helped put an innocent man behind bars for like 20 years.

I didn't like any one interviewed for the prosecution of MSM. Pretty much any final appeal case the prosecutors are like we may have ****ed up and put the wrong man in jail.

On the other hand the final appeal of Rick McCue he was released but is back behind bars I believe. So the picture I get of him is that he is not a murderer but is an *******.

Debbie Tanner was one of those rare victims on UM that made you dope slap your forehead. Her bigamist husband, Bo Tanner, committed arson in order to fake his death and took their money before he deserted her, but she went on camera and said she still loved him and hoped he would come back so that they could work things out :rolleyes: .

I mean, I know it was a lousy thing for him to do and he screwed her badly by taking all their money, but since it was a joint account, it technically wasn't illegal. The only actual charges against him were bigamy and suspicious of arson and sure enough, once they eventually found him, the statutes of limitation had expired. Not that Bo Tanner didn't deserve to face those charges, but it just seemed that there were a lot of wanted criminals or missing persons that were more worthy of being profiled on UM, and that the only reason this story even made it onto the show was because Debbie really wanted to find him and reconcile with him.

I get the impression Gale was trying to spare her family the agony of her death and knowing that she committed suicide.In her mind,this was probably the best approach.Depressed people can hardly think sometimes,much less think correctly.I do feel for her,that she felt suicide was a better option than getting help.You never know how mentally sick someone can be sometimes,and I think she was a good example of this.It's a shame it turned out the way it did.

I don't really buy Gale's claim that men weren't interested in her. There were obviously many men that were. Perhaps if she wasn't so selective in the men she dated, she might have felt differently. Gale was an extremely arrogant and egotistical woman who though most men couldn't meet up to her unusually high standards. If men weren't interested in her, maybe it's because they learned she was a despicable human being who was wrapped up in herself. Anybody that would try to pin crimes on innocent people, you have to wonder about. Gale obviously didn't care about anyone but herself. I don't think this as much as a matter of Gale being depressed as it is her being so narcissistic that she figured she wouldn't meet the "perfect guy" and decided to take her own life.

I don't really buy Gale's claim that men weren't interested in her. There were obviously many men that were. Perhaps if she wasn't so selective in the men she dated, she might have felt differently. Gale was an extremely arrogant and egotistical woman who though most men couldn't meet up to her unusually high standards. If men weren't interested in her, maybe it's because they learned she was a despicable human being who was wrapped up in herself. Anybody that would try to pin crimes on innocent people, you have to wonder about. Gale obviously didn't care about anyone but herself. I don't think this as much as a matter of Gale being depressed as it is her being so narcissistic that she figured she wouldn't meet the "perfect guy" and decided to take her own life.

While I agree what Gail did was selfish, not to mention ignorant as hell to lead her family to believe that she went out on a date, I don't see how anyone could claim she was "narcissistic", based solely off of the UM broadcast. If anything, her diary seems to come from the musings of a depressed, lonely woman, rather than an egotist. I don't think Gail was trying to pin the crime on anyone, but rather didn't want her family to think that she upped and left them to kill herself. Selfish, yes but not narcissistic.

I say any one who disappeared and then to find out they kill themselves is an attention whore.

^ I wholeheartedly agree.

Even if Gale thought her own life was a lost cause, she should have stuck it out for her sons, at least till they graduated from high school, instead of leaving them parentless. What a selfish woman.

I can't judge people who commit suicide. The fact that they would choose such a final decision to temporary feelings means they aren't in their right mind when they do it, so I can't feel anything but pity.

I can't judge people who commit suicide. The fact that they would choose such a final decision to temporary feelings means they aren't in their right mind when they do it, so I can't feel anything but pity.

I feel more pity for her family, but I do agree. We simply have no way of knowing what Gail's state of mind was (other than being obviously depressed), so in her mind suicide was probably the "only way out". Not an "attention whore", more of a troubled mind.

I feel nothing but pity for Gale,and it's not my place to judge her anyway.

That said,the one person I didn't like on UM was the guy who walked out on his family,leaving them no note or anything and no idea about what happened to him (his car was found by the side of the rd and he was seen hitch-hiking).His excuse was that he'd commited a crime in his younger yrs, and wasn't using his real name so therefore he could not file nor collect SS/retirement or something along those lines.
I just felt he really DID want to walk out on them, and start a new life..he could have consulted an attorney and found out the crime was no longer punishable, and gotten advice how to deal with the monetary issues involved.I get the feeling the family felt the same way,as they were speaking of forgiveness being difficult in this case.

He just comes off as being a major jerk,and I don't think depression or any aggravating circumstances were involved.

I feel nothing but pity for Gale,and it's not my place to judge her anyway.

That said,the one person I didn't like on UM was the guy who walked out on his family,leaving them no note or anything and no idea about what happened to him (his car was found by the side of the rd and he was seen hitch-hiking).His excuse was that he'd commited a crime in his younger yrs, and wasn't using his real name so therefore he could not file nor collect SS/retirement or something along those lines.
I just felt he really DID want to walk out on them, and start a new life..he could have consulted an attorney and found out the crime was no longer punishable, and gotten advice how to deal with the monetary issues involved.I get the feeling the family felt the same way,as they were speaking of forgiveness being difficult in this case.

He just comes off as being a major jerk,and I don't think depression or any aggravating circumstances were involved.

That's Alex Cooper you're referring to. That brings to mind a case of Craig the fish farmer who walked away from his newlywed bride and was found years later claiming he was attacked and suffered from "amnesia". The subsequent investigation revealed he was in financial trouble, and there were no witnesses nor no signs of a struggle of where Craig says he was attacked. There were also beard trimmings found in his vehicle which lead investigators to believe he was altering his appearance on purpose. IMO it's obvious he faked his amnesia to bail out of a rushed marriage and the fact that he was in financial trouble. I have no sympathy for these amnesia cases when the people claiming to be suffering from it are shown (in all likelihood) to be lying.

Wasn't "Tyler" wanted for a crime and he said he had amnesia and was arrested after he figured out who he was?

As was "Pat." The only male amnesiac featured that was not wanted for anything, so far as I know, was "Pierre."

That's Alex Cooper you're referring to. That brings to mind a case of Craig the fish farmer who walked away from his newlywed bride and was found years later claiming he was attacked and suffered from "amnesia". The subsequent investigation revealed he was in financial trouble, and there were no witnesses nor no signs of a struggle of where Craig says he was attacked. There were also beard trimmings found in his vehicle which lead investigators to believe he was altering his appearance on purpose. IMO it's obvious he faked his amnesia to bail out of a rushed marriage and the fact that he was in financial trouble. I have no sympathy for these amnesia cases when the people claiming to be suffering from it are shown (in all likelihood) to be lying.
thanks,I had forgotten his name.
Yes I had doubts about the fish guy as well.He seemed too intent on not returning,and not even interested in what his former life was about.
One question about that;a woman said she thought she'd spotted him on a train,disheveled and disoriented,rambling on about fish..was that really him,does anyone know?

thanks,I had forgotten his name.
Yes I had doubts about the fish guy as well.He seemed too intent on not returning,and not even interested in what his former life was about.
One question about that;a woman said she thought she'd spotted him on a train,disheveled and disoriented,rambling on about fish..was that really him,does anyone know?

His name was Craig Williamson. It was never confirmed if it was after he disappeared. I thought that case was stupid. Most amnesia cases are. I feel like these people just want to get on TV. "Pierre" wasn't a bad case.

thanks,I had forgotten his name.
Yes I had doubts about the fish guy as well.He seemed too intent on not returning,and not even interested in what his former life was about.
One question about that;a woman said she thought she'd spotted him on a train,disheveled and disoriented,rambling on about fish..was that really him,does anyone know?

I think Craig was found in Florida and the "witness" reported seeing him on a train in Washington state, IIRC. The distance between the two is enough to discredit this witness, IMO. I think she just saw someone similiar in appearance to Craig.

Sheriff Wampler. I almost always take the side of cops. I'm a firm supporter in the police. And while I try to believe and even like Wampler nothing excuses the incompetence of burning evidence even if he did it or not

I agree with everything in this statement and feel the same way. How that man still has a job is beyond me.

And he giggles his way through the interview!!! This is a serious matter and his demeanor is upsetting, guilty or not.

And he giggles his way through the interview!!! This is a serious matter and his demeanor is upsetting, guilty or not.

I got the vibe Wampler thinks it's a load of BS, and that is why he was smirking. Not advocating it, that's always been my impression, however.

I got the vibe Wampler thinks it's a load of BS, and that is why he was smirking. Not advocating it, that's always been my impression, however.

I agree. I think Wampler's scoffs were simply because the whole "Eric having an affair with his wife" theory was in all likelihood a lie concocted by our dear friend Donnie Dixon.

I might get flamed for this, and I don't think in any way she deserved her fate, but did anyone else think that Carson Prince came off as a brat in the reenactment? Just something about how she was presented made her seem spoiled to me.

I might get flamed for this, and I don't think in any way she deserved her fate, but did anyone else think that Carson Prince came off as a brat in the reenactment? Just something about how she was presented made her seem spoiled to me.

Ballsy post. I don't think you're entirely wrong.

Many people speak ill of the dead with great trepidation, for the end of one's life often invites people's tendencies to remember the best. I see what you are saying about Carson, and sadly, what I perceive as her major character flaw (and this is only from what I saw on the show - I did not know her) is not exclusive to her. She loved the bad boys. UM has a laundry list of women like this - Carson, Missy Munday, Diane Brodbeck, Jennifer Pratt, and about a dozen others whom I can't even remember (they are primarily women who fell for dirtbags in prison).

Now, often times, things like this are just a phase, but some people (and I emphasize people here - this sort of thing happens to guys, too) just simply cannot stay away from troublemakers. Some people want to save them, some people want the excitement, and some people just (in my opinion) get off on the abuse.

I don't know if she was exactly a brat, but she made some bad mistakes in choosing friends (there are no nice drug dealers), and it is sad that when she died, as a beautiful young woman, that a crappy boyfriend on the suspect list was a strong reality.

I agree. I think Wampler's scoffs were simply because the whole "Eric having an affair with his wife" theory was in all likelihood a lie concocted by our dear friend Donnie Dixon.

That I can understand when he defends the wife rumor, but at the end when he proclaims his innocence aside from that he's still giggly and being very odd. I still think it was Dixon, but Wampler was very unprofessional in demeanor and behavior.

I tried to like Adam Hecth's mother on the basis that it must be so stressful for her to not know what happened to her son but to be honest, she came across as a bit fake and not really too worried in my opinion and then I googled his name trying to find bits about him. I came across The Doe Network and The Charley Project but apart from them, there are no sites about him and if it was my son, I'd have it all out there no matter how much time had passed but there is nothing on him.

I've always have some odd feeling about Kurt Sova's mother when she spoke on the segment about his son. Not her per se, but the language she used. Dorothy Sova just made me feel as if she was resenting that her "youngest boy" was growing out of the quiet, pretty-picture boy she had in her mind.

Not that she didn't have the best intentions, but the language she used was rather... down-putting. She sounded too much the smothering, nigh-infantilizing mother who'd have like to turn her son into a momma's boy. That she wasn't aware or even contemplating that her 17 year old son might drink alcohol, go out to parties, and get acquainted with older or different people and do typical teenage things, and her keeping insisting that he was never in trouble and was a good boy, was putting me off. I mean, he was almost an adult, for crying out loud.

She gave me the vibe that she had wanted her son to remain as cute, cuddly, and obedient as an 8 year old, implying that it was in fact his straying and exploration that lead to his death. But judging from the segment, Kurt wasn't doing anything a typical youth of his age wouldn't do in any urban setting (including myself, despite having my own brand of overbearing, borderline mother), and in fact he seemed a rather well-balanced, socially active young guy.

Yeah, sure alcohol, parties, and a little drug experimenting is rather normal for a typical teenage, yet rather scary to protective, well-meaning yet sometimes overbearing parents. But still, the guy was 17 years old, not 13, and he could fend for himself. Whether or not his death was due to foul play or interaction with alchool and drugs (which might not even be voluntary if the drinks were spiked), I wouldn't blame it on his lifestyle experiments as being "wrong". They weren't.

Come to think of it, I see your point. While I wouldn't go as far as saying I disliked her, especially her comment of "I couldn't do that to somebody's dog, let alone a human being" and her talking about looking for Kurt in dumpsters. But, it seemed like she spent half the segment referring to Kurt as "my boy....my boy". He was 17 years old, nearly a man. It was slightly off-putting.

Darin Routier. I always got the feeling that the way he recounted the story of the night his two children were murdered, he could have just as easily been talking about a zany chain of events that occurred over a day of running errands or something. Strangely light-hearted. I get people deal with things differently--but I have always had an oogy feeling about him. I don't think he was involved in any way, shape, or form, but he creeps me out.

I also agree about Tony Lombardi's friend. There's nothing there but a feeling, but I don't know if I believe that he actually did get in contact with this person who was harassing Tony as he said he did.

Darin Routier. I always got the feeling that the way he recounted the story of the night his two children were murdered, he could have just as easily been talking about a zany chain of events that occurred over a day of running errands or something. Strangely light-hearted. I get people deal with things differently--but I have always had an oogy feeling about him. I don't think he was involved in any way, shape, or form, but he creeps me out.

Yeah, even if he's completely innocent, that whole story about him allegedly asking the paramedics about what they thought of his wife's new breast implants shortly after his two sons had been butchered is just so wrong on so many levels.

Yeah, even if he's completely innocent, that whole story about him allegedly asking the paramedics about what they thought of his wife's new breast implants shortly after his two sons had been butchered is just so wrong on so many levels.
I dearly, dearly hope this is not true. I know we all grieve and experience shock differently, but this is just awful. I also found his demeanor to be kind of strange, as Meg said, when he recounts what he woke up to. I feel bad for the guy and of course that would be a horrific nightmare to wake up to and experience, but I also found him odd. I've heard other users recall seeing him on talk shows and only ''whining'' about how much Darlie's surgery is. I think one thing that bothers me (as in most cases wher I think the perp is guilty) is that neither Darlie nor Darin seems vigilent in finding ''the real killer,'' only in getting her free. Of course that portion just may not have made it to the segment, but I can't help but think, ''If you're not guilty, wouldn't you also be feeling rage against him and fear for the rest of your family that this person was never caught?'' I just don't see that here, from Darlie or Darin.

I've heard other users recall seeing him on talk shows and only ''whining'' about how much Darlie's surgery is. I think one thing that bothers me (as in most cases wher I think the perp is guilty) is that neither Darlie nor Darin seems vigilent in finding ''the real killer,'' only in getting her free. Of course that portion just may not have made it to the segment, but I can't help but think, ''If you're not guilty, wouldn't you also be feeling rage against him and fear for the rest of your family that this person was never caught?'' I just don't see that here, from Darlie or Darin.

While Darin probably never wished his boys to be murdered, the family was in severe debt at the time, so I could see him being superficial enough to think: "Well, at least they won't be a financial burden any more".

He kinda reminds of Niqui McCown's fiancee. I don't think he had anything to do with her disappearance and probably never wished any harm upon her,
but he sure as hell didn't hesitate to get a refund on the wedding and return his engagement ring.

I don't know if this is true or not, but the Routier's allegedly burried their two sons together holding hands, with a knife in their casket and played Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise" at their funeral.

I don't know if this is true or not, but the Routier's allegedly burried their two sons together holding hands, with a knife in their casket and played Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise" at their funeral.

This might be admitting a little too much about my habitual nature, but when my alarm on my phone goes off every morning, I will check my e-mail, Facebook, and two boards I actively post on before I even get out of bed (thanks, technology). Anyway, I was lying in bed at 5:30 this morning and this post is what caused me to produce a "what the--" sentence that included an expletive that I didn't expect to roll out of my mouth before I'd even gotten out of bed!

Anyway, I knew I had to check on this when I had time to do so. A few articles I found repeated this information, and the author of the article below actually wrote a book on the Routier case. The knives (little pocketknives) were apparently a gift from Darin, who had refused to allow the boys own or play with them at their age. (This is nothing but sheer personal opinion and it's worth about a cent and a half, but if my children had been violently murdered by someone stabbing them with a knife, knives would be the last thing I'd want them buried with).

http://www.dmagazine.com/Home/1997/04/01/RELATIONSHIPS_Why_Darin_Believes_Darlie.aspx

Again, I get that people deal with grief in different ways. But Good Lord, those people darn sure are different ones.

Sure does put the whole silly string incident in a different context, doesn't it?

I hope no one has mentioned this yet but...

Pat Mealbach (http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/The_Family_of_Pat_Mealbach)

For those that don't remember she is the woman that claims to be the heir of the Dodge family.

I don't know why I didn't like her. Maybe it was her daughter claiming that she's been cheated out of a "lifestyle" or her insistence that she does not care about the money which to me smacked of an outright lie.

While the DNA test done later is interesting I found her evidence that she was a Dodge to be rather flimsy.

I hope no one has mentioned this yet but...

Pat Mealbach (http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/The_Family_of_Pat_Mealbach)

For those that don't remember she is the woman that claims to be the heir of the Dodge family.

I don't know why I didn't like her. Maybe it was her daughter claiming that she's been cheated out of a "lifestyle" or her insistence that she does not care about the money which to me smacked of an outright lie.

While the DNA test done later is interesting I found her evidence that she was a Dodge to be rather flimsy.

I always believed that she was a member of the Dodge family. The resemblance was striking, and I find it difficult to believe that if her DNA results contradicted her claims that the Dodge family's attorneys wouldn't scream it from the mountain tops. Remember, it was at the Dodges' request she submitted her DNA for testing.

Despite the hype about wealth, not everyone is interested in it. Mrs. Mealbach struck me as one of those people. Her daughter clearly seemed to be an entirely different story. I always felt her comments reflected she was far more concerned with "being cheated out of a lifestyle" than with her mother being cheated out of knowing her true heritage.

Didn't Pat Mealbach have a childhood memory of visiting the Dodge Estate? I always thought she seemed truthful.

I think Pat came off very well in the segment. She didn't seem money-hungry, she didn't seem greedy, and she gave a good interview, in my opinion. It's really her daughter who made a bad impression and didn't help her mother's cause...

I agree with Meg. If the DNA results had confirmed Pat was not a Dodge, attorneys representing the Dodges would use that evidence and make it public. It seems ludicrous that they wouldn't if they really wanted to prove their case.

I always thought she was hopeful and sincere, but not on the right trail. Seriously, why would a family with a ton of money adopt out their child? It doesn't make sense....unless Mr Dodge had a child with a nanny or something scandalous. I personally think the woman way off base....not nuts or crazy....but desperate to find the truth... in a place where the truth didn't exist.

I always believed that she was a member of the Dodge family. The resemblance was striking, and I find it difficult to believe that if her DNA results contradicted her claims that the Dodge family's attorneys wouldn't scream it from the mountain tops. Remember, it was at the Dodges' request she submitted her DNA for testing.

Despite the hype about wealth, not everyone is interested in it. Mrs. Mealbach struck me as one of those people. Her daughter clearly seemed to be an entirely different story. I always felt her comments reflected she was far more concerned with "being cheated out of a lifestyle" than with her mother being cheated out of knowing her true heritage.

I do find it odd that the DNA results are not being released and that just doesn't sound right. I find it hard to believe that she doesn't have a legal right to view the results.

I agree, if the DNA results showed she definitely wasn't a Dodge it would be well known and well traveled news by the Dodge family lawyers.

Pat is dead now and she seemed very disingenuous. The dialogue between her and her daughter when they visited the Dodge home seemed very put on to me. Also the special where she actually sat down with Robert Stack just stuck me as very dishonest.

Didn't Pat Mealbach have a childhood memory of visiting the Dodge Estate? I always thought she seemed truthful.

Childhood memories recalled years later I find to be some of the least reliable.

I guess I don't understand all the disdain for Billy Reed Mesmer. He didn't say or do anything objectionable to me in the segment. I think what he was getting at with his line "I am a poet...I wrote her hundreds of poems" was that out of several hundred poems, the police were focusing on ONE excerpt from ONE poem that I'm sure was taken out of context. He also seemed to be one of the few people involved in the case that wanted to find Nancy Manni's killer.

Oded Gordon's mother, didn't like the way she spoke.

"Oded I would like to hear from you"

Bit of and odd thing to say straight off the bat.

Oded Gordon's mother, didn't like the way she spoke.

"Oded I would like to hear from you"

Bit of and odd thing to say straight off the bat.
I think she was trying not to cry. You can see tears in her eyes when she pauses after that before telling him he can call his grandmother.